Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
Crazyterran wrote: Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
Yes, but something simplistic like locking World Eaters to Assault Doctrine or Iron Warriors to Devastator Doctrine wouldn't be the craziest concept in the world.
Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
if this is part of angels of death the doctrines will be avalaible to everyone, even non codex chapters like space wolves. but I agree loyalists do typically fight more cohesivly then chaos marines.
Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
if this is part of angels of death the doctrines will be avalaible to everyone, even non codex chapters like space wolves. but I agree loyalists do typically fight more cohesivly then chaos marines.
Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?
Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.
Also, the article says:
Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…
Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?
Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.
Also, the article says:
Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…
AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:
And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I made some ill-advised attempts at painting this as balanced.
I was wrong.
I got nothing.
I think perhaps people are jumping the gun again on impressions. Maybe not. I dunno.
The doctrines are the only immediate buff outside mediocre weapons. Everything else has a cost associated with it.
Still strange situation where mirror traits did not get any mention for an update now isn't it.
and more stratagems mean by shere virtue more chances for GW giving us more "great and fun and balanced " stratagems tm
Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?
Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.
Also, the article says:
Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…
AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:
And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)
So excuse me but that is BS
They also don't follow the CODEX ASTARTES.
These are for Chapters that follow the CODEX ASTARTES. Not just legion styles of fighting, but the CODEX ASTARTES.
Do the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion follow the CODEX ASTARTES?
So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?
You don't get anythig as DW IIIIFFFFFF the article is right, however when we remember stuff like beta bolter rule then by all means go ahead.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?
Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?
Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?
Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.
Also, the article says:
Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…
AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:
And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)
So excuse me but that is BS
yes but they're not orginized the same way as space marine chapters. they're also ,MUCH MUCH less... for lack of a better term bonded, then codex marines. Marinus Calgar doesn't have to worry about Cato Sicirus literally stabbing him in the back
Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?
Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.
Also, the article says:
Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…
AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:
And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)
So excuse me but that is BS
They also don't follow the CODEX ASTARTES.
These are for Chapters that follow the CODEX ASTARTES. Not just legion styles of fighting, but the CODEX ASTARTES.
Do the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion follow the CODEX ASTARTES?
No.
No but the scourged, Purge, Flawless, RC, etc still do to an extent because that is all they know?
The argument still makes no sense and i remain adamant about it beeing BS
Not sure it'll help. Didn't it say they can't charge on the same turn they disembark or did I just not retain the info?
Otherwise a Land Raider still doesn't get things into melee quickly which is what I would want
Am I the only one to think it's a little ironic that a rule named "Assault Vehicle" neither helps the unit get other units into melee nor makes it better at assaulting by itself?
why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.
Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something
BrianDavion wrote: why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.
Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something
I am not against or for doctrines i just find the excuse BS.
What i am ANNOYED BY is the fact of the updated and improved chapter traits that mirrored chaos ones, and yet even tough the dex 2.0 for chaos isn't old didn't get any update in that regard?
Is that not rather annoying if that was sold to you aswell?
BrianDavion wrote: why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.
Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something
I am not against or for doctrines i just find the excuse BS.
What i am ANNOYED BY is the fact of the updated and improved chapter traits that mirrored chaos ones, and yet even tough the dex 2.0 for chaos isn't old didn't get any update in that regard?
Is that not rather annoying if that was sold to you aswell?
it was sold to me and it is annoying I agree. but it is what it is.
I mean if an Iron warriors player asked me if he could just use the IFs trait I'd tell him to go for it. but not everyone is as generous as I am.
BrianDavion wrote: why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.
Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something
Tomatoe - tomato, potatoe - potato. I didn't think we were getting Angels of Death initially, but GW has created the expectation now, the rest is just conjecture about how deep the rabbit hole goes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?
Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?
Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.
BrianDavion wrote: why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.
Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something
I am not against or for doctrines i just find the excuse BS.
What i am ANNOYED BY is the fact of the updated and improved chapter traits that mirrored chaos ones, and yet even tough the dex 2.0 for chaos isn't old didn't get any update in that regard?
Is that not rather annoying if that was sold to you aswell?
it was sold to me and it is annoying I agree. but it is what it is.
I mean if an Iron warriors player asked me if he could just use the IFs trait I'd tell him to go for it. but not everyone is as generous as I am.
Sure, that's nice, but you are not the issue, or the rules itself.
The issue is that GW knew that they fethed 75% of all TRAITS in nearly ALL books.
Yet they updated 1 book,after their EVIL twin got their update which had similar TRAITS, infact even MIRRORED ones. And nothing really changed in that book beyond a heavy nerf bat to the standard unit it fielded and shadowspear stuff. In essence the updates worthless cashgrab.
Now we get supplements, bloat and no ONES happy really.
Look at half the marine player in here, doubting that it is a good change, even MARTEL for gods sake. I mean chances are higher that hell freezes over!
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?
Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?
Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.
Let me repeat my question. The article in question tells you, in no uncertain terms, in a convenient list format, which factions gain access to these new units. Furthermore, it explicitly points out which unit Deathwatch will get access to.
Why do you think Deathwatch will get access to anything beyond the Repulsor Executioner when you are in no uncertain terms told they will not?
Here's the actual quote:
So, with all this exciting news of new units, we’re going to take a moment just to explore how the new codex affects Space Marine Chapters of the First Founding who are not strictly codex-compliant – specifically the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?
Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?
Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.
Let me repeat my question. The article in question tells you, in no uncertain terms, in a convenient list format, which factions gain access to these new units. Furthermore, it explicitly points out which unit Deathwatch will get access to.
Why do you think Deathwatch will get access to anything beyond the Repulsor Executioner when you are in no uncertain terms told they will not?
Here's the actual quote:
So, with all this exciting news of new units, we’re going to take a moment just to explore how the new codex affects Space Marine Chapters of the First Founding who are not strictly codex-compliant – specifically the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels
BrianDavion wrote: why is it that space marines can't get anything without chaos players demanding they get it too, in addition to all their other stuff? I play both CSMs and regular marines, I'd like to see chaos get something similer to this sure but I don't want an exact copy.
Maybe a "gift of the gods" ability that you can choose at the beginning of the game or something
Tomatoe - tomato, potatoe - potato. I didn't think we were getting Angels of Death initially, but GW has created the expectation now, the rest is just conjecture about how deep the rabbit hole goes.
There is no reason to assume you wouldn't get angels of death. They are literally the same units in most cases. Choas might not get access to doctrines kind of like marines don't get access to god specific abilities (thought granted they aren't very good) that would be very easy to fix in a PDF update. For example - nurgle could give ignore ap-1 and slanesh could give +2 movement).
Crazyterran wrote: Why would Chaos get Doctrines when they don't follow the Codex Astartes? :O
Because legions might also had doctrines?
The main reason for the split was to stop legion sized battleforces turning and their whole support infrastructure that is vastly more complex then a chapters.
Also a chapter can be in a pinch swamped to death with guardsmen (of high enough quality) a legion is a whole other issue.
Legions didn't have doctrines along the lines of the Codex, they had their own fighting styles which were covered by traits.
Combat Doctrines show how a Codex Chapter fights, the thing that ties all the differing chapter tactic armies in Codex: Space Marines together. Unlike Chaos, that bond over warp dust and spikes.
Okay, and what does that have to do with Doctrines that show how Codex Complaint chapters fight?
Obviously all militaries have doctrines, but that has nothing to do with these. Also, sarcastic facepalm emoji.
Also, the article says:
Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…
AGAIN: ANY ORGANIZED MILITARY FORCE USES DOCTRINES:
IW, WB, BL, AL are all still highly ORGANIZED FORCES:
And also had mirror traits (well except wb but Wb suck)
So excuse me but that is BS
They also don't follow the CODEX ASTARTES.
These are for Chapters that follow the CODEX ASTARTES. Not just legion styles of fighting, but the CODEX ASTARTES.
Do the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion follow the CODEX ASTARTES?
No.
No but the scourged, Purge, Flawless, RC, etc still do to an extent because that is all they know?
The argument still makes no sense and i remain adamant about it beeing BS
Holy cow man here's your award for the most passionate person here
Seriously alpha legion doesn't care about the Codex Astartes, world eaters might eat it but I doubt they choose to fall back and shoot the chopy guys and chop the shooty guys they chop all the guys all the time, ergo no codex astartes combat doctrines!
Sure they have their own doctrines. Yes okay as do non codex compliant chapters but right now for this release we are talking about codex compliant chapters that use the Codex Astartes for there tactics, therefore they would use combat doctrines from the Codex Astartes
So until CA comes out to dish out the buffs and nerfs or a little FAQ you're gonna have to sit and wait or walk into GW headquarters and give them a piece of your mind yourself cause nobody here has any sway there
Elbows wrote: I haven't played 8th in a while, decided to take a break. I think I'm probably actually done at this point. Back to playing 2nd edition.
So you aren't involved and have decided to make a decision based on incomplete information to continue being uninvolved?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: The tears of Chaos players are creating a new Chaos God.
The God of Endless complaining.
I jest, I jest
I think this is the root of the complaining. People aren't getting something for their army so they feel left out in the cold and therefore feel entitled to tear this down before its out.
No the article stated that it would double the firrate, which it does not.
It said nothing of the kind, and your inability to comprehend the rule doesnt change that fact.
I meant the article that stated it would double the firerate even though the rules paragraf in it clearly stated that bolter discipline only would allow for max range rapidfire.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?
Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?
Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.
Let me repeat my question. The article in question tells you, in no uncertain terms, in a convenient list format, which factions gain access to these new units. Furthermore, it explicitly points out which unit Deathwatch will get access to.
Why do you think Deathwatch will get access to anything beyond the Repulsor Executioner when you are in no uncertain terms told they will not?
Here's the actual quote:
So, with all this exciting news of new units, we’re going to take a moment just to explore how the new codex affects Space Marine Chapters of the First Founding who are not strictly codex-compliant – specifically the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels
It doesnt say what you want it to say.
I don't want to make you any angrier than you already seem, but this is where:
"Everyone Else If you were concerned about the rest of the [b]non-codex chapters, don’t worry – they are ALL getting access to this crazyness..."
The list is handy, but GW being GW, and having to write Day ONE FAQs about this sort of thing, might have forgotten that there are MORE than 3 non-codex sub factions. Look if this is the case, then we need to address this stuff properly.
From now on, GK, DW, and Blood Ravens are a SEPARATE FACTION. Obviously this is a little hyperbolic, but still. Either address this feth properly, or stop being surprised when people ask if they can take it. Because right now, there is literally nothing saying I this stupid new tank Purple, call it Buttstallion, and give it DW rules.
Elbows wrote: I haven't played 8th in a while, decided to take a break. I think I'm probably actually done at this point. Back to playing 2nd edition.
So you aren't involved and have decided to make a decision based on incomplete information to continue being uninvolved?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: The tears of Chaos players are creating a new Chaos God.
The God of Endless complaining.
I jest, I jest
I think this is the root of the complaining. People aren't getting something for their army so they feel left out in the cold and therefore feel entitled to tear this down before its out.
To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, the post states "All sub factions" but the list provided doesn't include BR, DW, GK, or a few other cannon factions. Do we go by the list they gave us, or do I start painting up my DW Eliminators?
Why would you assume that Deathwatch would get a unit when the list you're quoting explicitly indicates they wont?
Because the link states "all sub factions". That includes BA, DA, and SW. I don't understand how DW are different than DA. Honestly help me out here. GW is essentially saying specialty makes you a solo faction. I would submit that Space wolves are WAY more of a Solo-faction than DW is. At least DW is still human.
Let me repeat my question. The article in question tells you, in no uncertain terms, in a convenient list format, which factions gain access to these new units. Furthermore, it explicitly points out which unit Deathwatch will get access to.
Why do you think Deathwatch will get access to anything beyond the Repulsor Executioner when you are in no uncertain terms told they will not?
Here's the actual quote:
So, with all this exciting news of new units, we’re going to take a moment just to explore how the new codex affects Space Marine Chapters of the First Founding who are not strictly codex-compliant – specifically the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels
It doesnt say what you want it to say.
I don't want to make you any angrier than you already seem, but this is where:
"Everyone Else If you were concerned about the rest of the [b]non-codex chapters, don’t worry – they are ALL getting access to this crazyness..."
The list is handy, but GW being GW, and having to write Day ONE FAQs about this sort of thing, might have forgotten that there are MORE than 3 non-codex sub factions. Look if this is the case, then we need to address this stuff properly.
From now on, GK, DW, and Blood Ravens are a SEPARATE FACTION. Obviously this is a little hyperbolic, but still. Either address this feth properly, or stop being surprised when people ask if they can take it. Because right now, there is literally nothing saying I this stupid new tank Purple, call it Buttstallion, and give it DW rules.
blood ravens are a codex space marines army, they get whats in codex space marines. or did I somehow miss them getting their codex sometime in the last week,.
Death watch don't get everything automaticly because of their rules. it's easy to slot a squad of infiltrators into codex space wolves. apply the space wolf chapter tactic, and done.
Death watch are a specal army with unique squad structure and access to special issue ammo. GW is going to need to work out how to intergrate the new infantry into that, as well as how their weapons will wiork with SIA. and that means GW needs to be careful. it'll be FAQed in, if not put in a entirely new death watch codex. but the reasons for excluding death watch make PERFECT sense.
Xenomancers wrote: To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OPAF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...
Elbows wrote: I haven't played 8th in a while, decided to take a break. I think I'm probably actually done at this point. Back to playing 2nd edition.
So you aren't involved and have decided to make a decision based on incomplete information to continue being uninvolved?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishagu wrote: The tears of Chaos players are creating a new Chaos God.
The God of Endless complaining.
I jest, I jest
I think this is the root of the complaining. People aren't getting something for their army so they feel left out in the cold and therefore feel entitled to tear this down before its out.
To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
Maybe, 3 intercessor squads clocks in at 255, that's the cheapest the troops slot can be (for Primaris only) every other unit is more expensive, we're probably looking at at most 20 units depending on if transportation eats up your list. I actually think old marines are going to be on the rise again, most of these buffs are things we all complained about. Extra attack, can put ap on the boltgun etc. That being said intercessors also got these buffs so there's that
Xenomancers wrote: To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OPAF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...
There is no quicker way to derail a thread than to bring up points. Watch this:
Xenomancers wrote: To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OPAF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...
10- 20 % is on average 2 pts on a marine body.
i can't really see how that would've been a problem
I must say in this case I can understand CSM players raising an eyebrow on the SM update. They received their own 2.0 codex very recently and nothing was changed about the legion tactics even though some of them were the exact same like the loyalists that now got proper buffs.
Xenomancers wrote: To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OPAF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...
There is no quicker way to derail a thread than to bring up points. Watch this:
AHEM..
GUARDMEN SQUADS ARE OVERCOSTED!
You did it wrong, you should've said IS are overcosted x3 in a mirror with some candles and a pentagramm nearby.
Xenomancers wrote: To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OPAF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...
10- 20 % is on average 2 pts on a marine body.
i can't really see how that would've been a problem
It's also in range of the terminator drop.
Terminators got a big drop, because they're forced into fists. CSM terminators did not drop the same way.
11 point marines would be silly and not at all as interesting as what we have now.
Xenomancers wrote: To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OPAF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...
10- 20 % is on average 2 pts on a marine body.
i can't really see how that would've been a problem
It's also in range of the terminator drop.
Terminators got a big drop, because they're forced into fists. CSM terminators did not drop the same way.
11 point marines would be silly and not at all as interesting as what we have now.
Martel732 wrote: This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.
Which should never have happened in the first place.
Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...
The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".
Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.
2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.
Martel732 wrote: This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.
Which should never have happened in the first place.
Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...
The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".
Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.
Not really no, everyone would still take the Cultists orcult marines.
Chosen are just 1 pts more expensive csms with a free chainsword for their trouble.
Xenomancers wrote: 2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.
why formations back asell.
it just now is called special detachments.
Martel732 wrote: This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.
Which should never have happened in the first place.
Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...
The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".
Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.
Not really no, everyone would still take the Cultists orcult marines.
Chosen are just 1 pts more expensive csms with a free chainsword for their trouble.
Free attack AND Chainsword, LD (not worth anything, granted), and the ability to be loaded to the brim with Special Weapons or Combi-Bolters. Power Weapons really shouldn't take up a slot on them and should just replace Chainswords as necessary but I digress.
Xenomancers wrote: 2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.
Wait for the SW update to make it on par with vanilla marine somewhere in the 2020. And then there will be 9ed in a couple month to add salt in the injury. Thanks for waiting SW players...
Xenomancers wrote: 2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.
why formations back asell.
it just now is called special detachments.
Xenomancers wrote: 2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.
Do you think nothing has changed about GW's approach since 7th?
+1A matters only some of the time.
Each chapter got an additional bit added - and marine tactics were panned as awful, so...
-1AP to infantry only likely. I'm not sure how AP4 plasma changes the world. AP1 bolters and chainswords puts marines back to where people were asking them to be.
Martel732 wrote: This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.
Which should never have happened in the first place.
Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...
The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".
Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.
Not really no, everyone would still take the Cultists orcult marines.
Chosen are just 1 pts more expensive csms with a free chainsword for their trouble.
Free attack AND Chainsword, LD (not worth anything, granted), and the ability to be loaded to the brim with Special Weapons or Combi-Bolters. Power Weapons really shouldn't take up a slot on them and should just replace Chainswords as necessary but I digress.
on a w 1 model?
And all of this costs points.
And CP, huge ammounts of CP and you just made the most efficent way of generating that CP more expensive.
As dishonest as you not considering the pricedrop in, let's face it, unused melee options that got replaced with a cheaper option?
Try again.
That's not how that works, but you twist whatever you need to make yourself feel better.
Sure lad.
i just provided the math for the cheapest possible CSM terminator before and after vigilus.
which is a 6 pts drop. or 14.28 %.
Which is and was considered a fair and overall good drop might i add.
and fully within the suggested 10-20% of xenomancer.
Which you stated would be terrible. Without anything or attempt to back your own psotion up, might i add.
I also fail to see what would be that terrible about a 110 pts CSM squad compared to a 130 CSM squad.f.e and it also is in line with the PM drop.
Martel732 wrote: This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.
Which should never have happened in the first place.
Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...
The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".
Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.
Not really no, everyone would still take the Cultists orcult marines.
Chosen are just 1 pts more expensive csms with a free chainsword for their trouble.
Free attack AND Chainsword, LD (not worth anything, granted), and the ability to be loaded to the brim with Special Weapons or Combi-Bolters. Power Weapons really shouldn't take up a slot on them and should just replace Chainswords as necessary but I digress.
on a w 1 model?
And all of this costs points.
And CP, huge ammounts of CP and you just made the most efficent way of generating that CP more expensive.
Gonna tell you, not a fan of that.
If you need the durability you can go Alpha Legion, but it makes sense to have the Marine units actually be Elite in legion forces. I mean, you really can't go cheaper than Tactical Marines and it isn't like we can't assume a future bonus for Chaos at some point. It's 3 additional points for an Intercessor to gain that extra wound and AP-1. So the jump to a Chosen having Rapid Fire 2 at 16 points at the expense of having one less wound (so being more durable to multi damage weapons but less so to D1, and having slightly less range) isn't exactly unreasonable.
Now if you're generally complaining that W2 should be standard for Marines I dunno what to tell you.
Martel732 wrote: This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.
Which should never have happened in the first place.
Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...
The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".
Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.
Not really no, everyone would still take the Cultists orcult marines.
Chosen are just 1 pts more expensive csms with a free chainsword for their trouble.
Free attack AND Chainsword, LD (not worth anything, granted), and the ability to be loaded to the brim with Special Weapons or Combi-Bolters. Power Weapons really shouldn't take up a slot on them and should just replace Chainswords as necessary but I digress.
on a w 1 model?
And all of this costs points.
And CP, huge ammounts of CP and you just made the most efficent way of generating that CP more expensive.
Gonna tell you, not a fan of that.
If you need the durability you can go Alpha Legion, but it makes sense to have the Marine units actually be Elite in legion forces. I mean, you really can't go cheaper than Tactical Marines and it isn't like we can't assume a future bonus for Chaos at some point. It's 3 additional points for an Intercessor to gain that extra wound and AP-1. So the jump to a Chosen having Rapid Fire 2 at 16 points at the expense of having one less wound (so being more durable to multi damage weapons but less so to D1, and having slightly less range) isn't exactly unreasonable.
Now if you're generally complaining that W2 should be standard for Marines I dunno what to tell you.
The issue is that there would be no meat for absorbing damage and fragility atm is allready an issue.
It would just lead to even more frontloading for Chaos.
Martel732 wrote: This does make upping cultists to 5 ppm seem even more ridiculous now.
Which should never have happened in the first place.
Agreed, but they had to try to make Chaos Marines the focus again...
The ideal option would have been "Cultist units do not take up the mandatory Troop slots in a Detachment".
Or they just make Chosen the base Troop choice instead of trying to represent Renegades options in the first place. Cultists vs Chosen vs Cult Marines with Vet stats is actually a choice to make.
Not really no, everyone would still take the Cultists orcult marines.
Chosen are just 1 pts more expensive csms with a free chainsword for their trouble.
Free attack AND Chainsword, LD (not worth anything, granted), and the ability to be loaded to the brim with Special Weapons or Combi-Bolters. Power Weapons really shouldn't take up a slot on them and should just replace Chainswords as necessary but I digress.
on a w 1 model?
And all of this costs points.
And CP, huge ammounts of CP and you just made the most efficent way of generating that CP more expensive.
Gonna tell you, not a fan of that.
If you need the durability you can go Alpha Legion, but it makes sense to have the Marine units actually be Elite in legion forces. I mean, you really can't go cheaper than Tactical Marines and it isn't like we can't assume a future bonus for Chaos at some point. It's 3 additional points for an Intercessor to gain that extra wound and AP-1. So the jump to a Chosen having Rapid Fire 2 at 16 points at the expense of having one less wound (so being more durable to multi damage weapons but less so to D1, and having slightly less range) isn't exactly unreasonable.
Now if you're generally complaining that W2 should be standard for Marines I dunno what to tell you.
The issue is that there would be no meat for absorbing damage and fragility atm is allready an issue.
It would just lead to even more frontloading for Chaos.
Honestly my ideal is that Cuktists would act as a wall, treating all Footstartes as characters for the purpose of targeting for shooting. Once they go 5 man and less, they stop acting like they should be a shield.
Just an idea of course but I would still take Chosen as troops in their current condition.
Xenomancers wrote: 2 points off an intercessor or it gets +1 attack and -1 AP and 3 chapter tactics? Give me a break dude. These changes are far more powerful than anything I ever suggested. I'm going to suffer for it too. All in 9th and 10th edition everyone is gonna cry about how OP marines were in 8th. When for 2 years of the eddition they were the worst army in the game and everyone stopped playing the game because the end of the eddition became a joke. Been here before man. It was called 7th edition.
Do you think nothing has changed about GW's approach since 7th?
+1A matters only some of the time.
Each chapter got an additional bit added - and marine tactics were panned as awful, so...
-1AP to infantry only likely. I'm not sure how AP4 plasma changes the world. AP1 bolters and chainswords puts marines back to where people were asking them to be.
I think they haven't changed their approach. I'm ready for sisters of battle Ynnari style to come out next and a daemon army that can summon unlimmited deamons for free or something. That is the direction things are going if this continues.
Xenomancers wrote: To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OPAF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...
There is no quicker way to derail a thread than to bring up points. Watch this:
AHEM..
GUARDMEN SQUADS ARE OVERCOSTED!
You did it wrong, you should've said IS are overcosted x3 in a mirror with some candles and a pentagramm nearby.
No never do that, if you do a guard tank commander will arrive and nuke a unit with unstoppable plasma for which there is no counter. I thought I warned you all of how serious a thing that is, don't ever do that. The guard boogeyman is listening.
Xenomancers wrote: To be fair....they did choose the wrong side . More seriously. Everyone should be crying about this. These SM rules are nutts. Should have just listened to Xeno....I just wanted up to 10-20% drops on most marine units. You guys laughed. Now look. Marines are OPAF.
Point drops to that level would have been a terrible idea. And then calling it OPAF on the other end of this is just...I dunno man...
There is no quicker way to derail a thread than to bring up points. Watch this:
AHEM..
GUARDMEN SQUADS ARE OVERCOSTED!
You did it wrong, you should've said IS are overcosted x3 in a mirror with some candles and a pentagramm nearby.
No never do that, if you do a guard tank commander will arrive and nuke a unit with unstoppable plasma for which there is no counter. I thought I warned you all of how serious a thing that is, don't ever do that. The guard boogeyman is listening.
But i am allready here, sort off.
General Meinel is watching you.
Waiting for the perfect Moment to roll you over with his chimera!
I think they haven't changed their approach. I'm ready for sisters of battle Ynnari style to come out next and a daemon army that can summon unlimmited deamons for free or something. That is the direction things are going if this continues.
And yet Ynnari has been nerfed. Ynnari and castellans were not randomly nerfed, either.
CA while not always buffing or nerfing to the community's desires did so in appropriate places and never in obscene measure (outside apocalypse units that almost no one owns).
Hey, if that is how I must go, I face my end bravely !
The one good thing with the new marine stuff is simply this though, aside from some jokes I didn't see anyone bellyaching about Guard. Dare I say people may be happy with their new over the top rules and units ? I hope so, at least for a couple months before we go back to Guard rage while being afraid of both Eldars once more.
I think they haven't changed their approach. I'm ready for sisters of battle Ynnari style to come out next and a daemon army that can summon unlimmited deamons for free or something. That is the direction things are going if this continues.
And yet Ynnari has been nerfed. Ynnari and castellans were not randomly nerfed, either.
CA while not always buffing or nerfing to the community's desires did so in appropriate places and never in obscene measure (outside apocalypse units that almost no one owns).
Que?
Come again, mind reminding me to what happened to FW index lists?
It isnt just apocalypse and Lord of wars you know.
The one good thing with the new marine stuff is simply this though, aside from some jokes I didn't see anyone bellyaching about Guard. Dare I say people may be happy with their new over the top rules and units ? I hope so, at least for a couple months before we go back to Guard rage while being afraid of both Eldars once more.
I question how much of a threat at least Craftworld Eldar are going to be after the codex comes out. With the new Incursor Squad ignoring cover and to hit mods, I could see Alaitoc getting knocked out of orbit real fast.
I think they haven't changed their approach. I'm ready for sisters of battle Ynnari style to come out next and a daemon army that can summon unlimmited deamons for free or something. That is the direction things are going if this continues.
And yet Ynnari has been nerfed. Ynnari and castellans were not randomly nerfed, either.
CA while not always buffing or nerfing to the community's desires did so in appropriate places and never in obscene measure (outside apocalypse units that almost no one owns).
Why nerf Ynnari and Castellans if you are going to make space marines OP? I don't understand it. You don't have to first make an army OP and then nerf it. You can just listen to common sense and make the army reasonable to start with.
I think they haven't changed their approach. I'm ready for sisters of battle Ynnari style to come out next and a daemon army that can summon unlimmited deamons for free or something. That is the direction things are going if this continues.
And yet Ynnari has been nerfed. Ynnari and castellans were not randomly nerfed, either.
CA while not always buffing or nerfing to the community's desires did so in appropriate places and never in obscene measure (outside apocalypse units that almost no one owns).
Why nerf Ynnari and Castellans if you are going to make space marines OP? I don't understand it. You don't have to first make an army OP and then nerf it. You can just listen to common sense and make the army reasonable to start with.
Maybee because you might sell less goods to the meta chaisers, which would be the equivalent to whales in the gaming industry?
I think they haven't changed their approach. I'm ready for sisters of battle Ynnari style to come out next and a daemon army that can summon unlimmited deamons for free or something. That is the direction things are going if this continues.
And yet Ynnari has been nerfed. Ynnari and castellans were not randomly nerfed, either.
CA while not always buffing or nerfing to the community's desires did so in appropriate places and never in obscene measure (outside apocalypse units that almost no one owns).
Why nerf Ynnari and Castellans if you are going to make space marines OP? I don't understand it. You don't have to first make an army OP and then nerf it. You can just listen to common sense and make the army reasonable to start with.
You've run out and made the assumption that they're now OP when just a few days ago you were complaining how overcosted the Executioner became...before you had the codex in hand.
I think they haven't changed their approach. I'm ready for sisters of battle Ynnari style to come out next and a daemon army that can summon unlimmited deamons for free or something. That is the direction things are going if this continues.
And yet Ynnari has been nerfed. Ynnari and castellans were not randomly nerfed, either.
CA while not always buffing or nerfing to the community's desires did so in appropriate places and never in obscene measure (outside apocalypse units that almost no one owns).
Why nerf Ynnari and Castellans if you are going to make space marines OP? I don't understand it. You don't have to first make an army OP and then nerf it. You can just listen to common sense and make the army reasonable to start with.
You've run out and made the assumption that they're now OP when just a few days ago you were complaining how overcosted the Executioner became...before you had the codex in hand.
Lets consider that when I made those statements executioners weren't getting chapter tactics and it just received a whopping 40 point nerf? That nerf was clearly a mistake too. The unit hasn't even been tested. Plus with it going up in points and not repulsors it makes no sense. Repulsors aren't really much worse than an executioner - certainly not 60ish points cheaper. Both units did just get 16% more durable become a lot harder to degrade and now can overwatch on 5's with a bucket of dice rerolling all hits. It is a pretty insane buff. I think it is pretty clear that marines are OP at this point. We don't even know what the new psychic powers and strats are gonna be yet. Like...imagine that space marines get shoot twice stratagems move twice abilties and +1 to hit spells and +1 to wound strats? Like....we already know what chaos does with that AND they don't have units nearly this good.
Lets consider that when I made those statements executioners weren't getting chapter tactics and it just received a whopping 40 point nerf? That nerf was clearly a mistake too. The unit hasn't even been tested. Plus with it going up in points and not repulsors it makes no sense. Repulsors aren't really much worse than an executioner - certainly not 60ish points cheaper. Both units did just get 16% more durable become a lot harder to degrade and now can overwatch on 5's with a bucket of dice rerolling all hits. It is a pretty insane buff. I think it is pretty clear that marines are OP at this point. We don't even know what the new psychic powers and strats are gonna be yet. Like...imagine that space marines get shoot twice stratagems move twice abilties and +1 to hit spells and +1 to wound strats? Like....we already know what chaos does with that AND they don't have units nearly this good.
But you knew a codex was coming. The point was made several times.
The proper thing to do is judge everything when it's out, right?
Let's not ruin a good hyperbolic conversation with dreams of reasoned debate and giving time to see what shakes out. Full power to panic mode.
Jokes aside, if this is all broke as a joke we'll all hear about it quite a lot as the days go on soon enough. Let's not hasten that time so soon, it hasn't even dropped fully yet, we have a few weeks left before full rage mode needs to be unleashed upon us all.
Lets consider that when I made those statements executioners weren't getting chapter tactics and it just received a whopping 40 point nerf? That nerf was clearly a mistake too. The unit hasn't even been tested. Plus with it going up in points and not repulsors it makes no sense. Repulsors aren't really much worse than an executioner - certainly not 60ish points cheaper. Both units did just get 16% more durable become a lot harder to degrade and now can overwatch on 5's with a bucket of dice rerolling all hits. It is a pretty insane buff. I think it is pretty clear that marines are OP at this point. We don't even know what the new psychic powers and strats are gonna be yet. Like...imagine that space marines get shoot twice stratagems move twice abilties and +1 to hit spells and +1 to wound strats? Like....we already know what chaos does with that AND they don't have units nearly this good.
But you knew a codex was coming. The point was made several times.
The proper thing to do is judge everything when it's out, right?
The codex was slated for like decemeber - we are getting it in august. It effects me now too. I have 2 executioners ready to go and they get preemptively nerfed. Granted they are probably playable now with chapter tactics and possibly stratagems - they aren't going to be a top choice. That was a nasty bait and switch if I've ever seen one. The point I was trying to make earlier and obviously failing at is the game isn't played it its final version. It is played week to weak and is constantly changing. Perhaps a year from now everything could reach a nice place of balance but right now I have to play with the rules in front of me and I complain about the rules in front of me. I'm happy to see marines getting better but when the shoe is on the other foot I don't feel putting them over the top is going to make the game any more fun for me or my mates. Now instead of having a good match I could be happy about I'll probably win a game and have my opponents bitching about hope OP marines are now. Not cool.
The codex was slated for like decemeber - we are getting it in august. It effects me now too. I have 2 executioners ready to go and they get preemptively nerfed. Granted they are probably playable now with chapter tactics and possibly stratagems - they aren't going to be a top choice. That was a nasty bait and switch if I've ever seen one. The point I was trying to make earlier and obviously failing at is the game isn't played it its final version. It is played week to weak and is constantly changing. Perhaps a year from now everything could reach a nice place of balance but right now I have to play with the rules in front of me and I complain about the rules in front of me. I'm happy to see marines getting better but when the shoe is on the other foot I don't feel putting them over the top is going to make the game any more fun for me or my mates. Now instead of having a good match I could be happy about I'll probably win a game and have my opponents bitching about hope OP marines are now. Not cool.
Yes, I agree with the premise. I'm just not confident it will at that level of OP.
That was a nasty bait and switch if I've ever seen one.
It wasn't. Everyone here is well aware that your units can take a nerf at any time. If it winds up being subpar it will get boosted. If it's too strong it will be nerfed.
The codex was slated for like decemeber - we are getting it in august. It effects me now too. I have 2 executioners ready to go and they get preemptively nerfed. Granted they are probably playable now with chapter tactics and possibly stratagems - they aren't going to be a top choice. That was a nasty bait and switch if I've ever seen one. The point I was trying to make earlier and obviously failing at is the game isn't played it its final version. It is played week to weak and is constantly changing. Perhaps a year from now everything could reach a nice place of balance but right now I have to play with the rules in front of me and I complain about the rules in front of me. I'm happy to see marines getting better but when the shoe is on the other foot I don't feel putting them over the top is going to make the game any more fun for me or my mates. Now instead of having a good match I could be happy about I'll probably win a game and have my opponents bitching about hope OP marines are now. Not cool.
Yes, I agree with the premise. I'm just not confident it will at that level of OP.
That was a nasty bait and switch if I've ever seen one.
It wasn't. Everyone here is well aware that your units can take a nerf at any time. If it winds up being subpar it will get boosted. If it's too strong it will be nerfed.
Taking a nerf without seeing any play though? That is false advertising.
The codex was slated for like decemeber - we are getting it in august. It effects me now too. I have 2 executioners ready to go and they get preemptively nerfed. Granted they are probably playable now with chapter tactics and possibly stratagems - they aren't going to be a top choice. That was a nasty bait and switch if I've ever seen one. The point I was trying to make earlier and obviously failing at is the game isn't played it its final version. It is played week to weak and is constantly changing. Perhaps a year from now everything could reach a nice place of balance but right now I have to play with the rules in front of me and I complain about the rules in front of me. I'm happy to see marines getting better but when the shoe is on the other foot I don't feel putting them over the top is going to make the game any more fun for me or my mates. Now instead of having a good match I could be happy about I'll probably win a game and have my opponents bitching about hope OP marines are now. Not cool.
Yes, I agree with the premise. I'm just not confident it will at that level of OP.
That was a nasty bait and switch if I've ever seen one.
It wasn't. Everyone here is well aware that your units can take a nerf at any time. If it winds up being subpar it will get boosted. If it's too strong it will be nerfed.
Taking a nerf without seeing any play though? That is false advertising.
"a massive rule overhaul and rules bloat cannot possibly raise concerns among the players, especially in light of what happened in previous editions of the game" this sums up reading your post.
Not only will GW prob more models, but honestly it makes more sense for the game to risk Marines being OP than underpowered. They're supposed to be an elite army, they need powers. If Marines are OP they can just push the point costs up next CA. If Marines are too weak, there's less good ways to fix them. If you instead dropped Marines by 20%, that really pushes them into horde territory and they run into the floor of lots of other armies' units that are supposed to be cheaper. Ex. it'd be pretty weird if a Marine became cheaper than a Sister even though from a tabletop perspective that might make sense.
bort wrote: Not only will GW prob more models, but honestly it makes more sense for the game to risk Marines being OP than underpowered. They're supposed to be an elite army, they need powers. If Marines are OP they can just push the point costs up next CA. If Marines are too weak, there's less good ways to fix them. If you instead dropped Marines by 20%, that really pushes them into horde territory and they run into the floor of lots of other armies' units that are supposed to be cheaper. Ex. it'd be pretty weird if a Marine became cheaper than a Sister even though from a tabletop perspective that might make sense.
I'm saying if you hypothetically kept dropping the points of regular marines until they didnt suck instead of giving them useful powers. A tactical marine doesnt have much statwise over say a sister, but the sister get powers and abilities too.
It makes much more sense to make marines an elite army that will hopefully justify a higher per model cost.
Haven't heard but I'd doubt they went up and this is all a hamfisted way to make marines good and done in typical GW fashion by leaps and bounds as nothing succeeds like excess.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Haven't heard but I'd doubt they went up and this is all a hamfisted way to make marines good and done in typical GW fashion by leaps and bounds as nothing succeeds like excess.
accurate description of the situation is accurate.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Haven't heard but I'd doubt they went up and this is all a hamfisted way to make marines good and done in typical GW fashion by leaps and bounds as nothing succeeds like excess.
Things need to be tested, but it feels like a lot of bonus special rules on top of each other which is always powerful. Not convinced it's the best thing for balance - but we are clearly in 8.5 edition now and I dont see why Marines should remain a punching bag. Will be interesting to see what comes next. Sisters I guess.
Spoletta wrote: Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...
No because then there is no improvement.
Astartes need a boost to elevate them to be on par with other armies such as Orks and Eldar, who perform better overall.
There's no improvement but they needed the boost? Seems contradictory.
Anyway, they don't need a points increase generally. They were below par now, and will probably be mid tier with this stuff. In the sweet spot.
I'm not yet convinced they'll be winning big tournaments (and if they do I'm certain people will still be running loyal 32 for chaff and CP), but they'll feel a lot better to play casually. And it's possible with new Stratagems etc in the book that they do become competitive!
The only players who should be complaining about this are Grey Knights really, who are left even further behind (and Shock Assault really doesn't do anywhere near enough to make that army decent!).
Spoletta wrote: Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...
No because then there is no improvement.
Astartes need a boost to elevate them to be on par with other armies such as Orks and Eldar, who perform better overall.
There's no improvement but they needed the boost? Seems contradictory.
Anyway, they don't need a points increase generally. They were below par now, and will probably be mid tier with this stuff. In the sweet spot.
I'm not yet convinced they'll be winning big tournaments (and if they do I'm certain people will still be running loyal 32 for chaff and CP), but they'll feel a lot better to play casually. And it's possible with new Stratagems etc in the book that they do become competitive!
The only players who should be complaining about this are Grey Knights really, who are left even further behind (and Shock Assault really doesn't do anywhere near enough to make that army decent!).
He was saying that if the points increased then there wouldn't be an improvement. The marines needed a boost to be competitive and now they are getting it through rule changes rather than point changes.
All that changed as far as I can tell is killing power. The weapons that blew them off the table are still going to do that. But a single bolter marine is a little more formidable
fraser1191 wrote: All that changed as far as I can tell is killing power. The weapons that blew them off the table are still going to do that. But a single bolter marine is a little more formidable
fraser1191 wrote: All that changed as far as I can tell is killing power. The weapons that blew them off the table are still going to do that. But a single bolter marine is a little more formidable
The best defense is a good offense I guess
What was that about gw trying to migitate frontloadin armies?
Get turn 1 you now stand a chance as marines.
Don't get turn 1. Bend over as usual.
fraser1191 wrote: All that changed as far as I can tell is killing power. The weapons that blew them off the table are still going to do that. But a single bolter marine is a little more formidable
The best defense is a good offense I guess
What was that about gw trying to migitate frontloadin armies?
Get turn 1 you now stand a chance as marines.
Don't get turn 1. Bend over as usual.
That's what the Apoc turn structure is for. We're all supposed to just figure out that we should be putting markers down and not removing casualties until the end of the round now.
The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :
7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).
For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.
Ravajaxe wrote: The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :
7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).
For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.
To be fair...it isn't a basic troop squad. It costs more than 4 infantry squads. You almost get a full batallion of IG for it's cost. Realistically at it maxium output it is actually going to be more impressive. Take those numbers and double them (that is vets getting to shoot twice for the rapid fire strat) then increase it even more for being crimson(imperial) fists/ultramarines with gman (esp vs vehicals). Instead of point drops they decided to make marines super elite...I feel they have gone a little to far with it but IG complaining about OP troops...that will never get old.
Ravajaxe wrote: The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :
7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).
For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.
A basic Intercessor squad is also 85 points. Two squads of Guardsmen with just FRFSRF kill:
5 GEQs in cover
3.5 damage to a light vehicle
1 damage to a T7 3+
Which isn't that much worse until you get to heavy vehicles, while also having twice as many wounds and being less vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. And that's without figuring any other buffs in.
Not trying to downplay how much Marines improve under the new rules, just pointing out that an Intercessor squad should be outdamaging it's points in Guardsmen since it's still easier to remove the Intercessors from the table.
Ravajaxe wrote: The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :
7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).
For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.
A basic Intercessor squad is also 85 points. Two squads of Guardsmen with just FRFSRF kill:
5 GEQs in cover
3.5 damage to a light vehicle
1 damage to a T7 3+
Which isn't that much worse until you get to heavy vehicles, while also having twice as many wounds and being less vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. And that's without figuring any other buffs in.
Not trying to downplay how much Marines improve under the new rules, just pointing out that an Intercessor squad should be outdamaging it's points in Guardsmen since it's still easier to remove the Intercessors from the table.
Actually for 9*2 lasguns with FRFSRF it is more like :
4.5 GEQ in cover
3 damage to a light vehicle (T5 only, if more T : 2 damage)
1 damage to a T7 3+ , OK
But fair point, considering that it is 110 points of IG versus 170 points of intercessors.
However, survivability wise it is quite different. SM have much more staying power than lowly guardsmen.
Ravajaxe wrote: The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :
7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).
For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.
A basic Intercessor squad is also 85 points. Two squads of Guardsmen with just FRFSRF kill:
5 GEQs in cover
3.5 damage to a light vehicle
1 damage to a T7 3+
Which isn't that much worse until you get to heavy vehicles, while also having twice as many wounds and being less vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. And that's without figuring any other buffs in.
Not trying to downplay how much Marines improve under the new rules, just pointing out that an Intercessor squad should be outdamaging it's points in Guardsmen since it's still easier to remove the Intercessors from the table.
Actually for 9*2 lasguns with FRFSRF it is more like :
4.5 GEQ in cover
3 damage to a light vehicle (T5 only, if more T : 2 damage)
1 damage to a T7 3+ , OK
But fair point, considering that it is 110 points of IG versus 170 points of intercessors.
However, survivability wise it is quite different. SM have much more staying power than lowly guardsmen.
Not vs special weapons though - what is really scary right now is how good marines are at killing marines.
Ravajaxe wrote: The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :
7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).
For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.
Alright let's slow this down a little.
Turn 1 these Intercessors have no AP bonus, which means they are effectively no different than they were before.
So these Tau kill MORE points of Intercessors at a range OUTSIDE the Intercessor's reach. Are we really going to call them "nuts" with "overwhelming firepower"?
Even if you took ONLY firewarriors they would still do 45 points of damage which eclipses Intercessors without the doctrine bonus and comes close to them with it.
Ravajaxe wrote: The new SM abilities combo is completely nuts. Double firepower thanks to bolter discipline + new codex combat doctrines leads to an overwhelming firepower.
The basic 10-man intercessor squad will put out :
7.4 unsaved wounds to a Tau firewarriors or GEQ in cover squad.
3.7 damage to a light vehicle (Sentinel, piranha, ork buggy, Vyper etc...),
3 damage to a regular vehicle (T 7 Sv 3+).
For a basic troopers squad !
This is unfairly versatile.
A basic Intercessor squad is also 85 points. Two squads of Guardsmen with just FRFSRF kill:
5 GEQs in cover
3.5 damage to a light vehicle
1 damage to a T7 3+
Which isn't that much worse until you get to heavy vehicles, while also having twice as many wounds and being less vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. And that's without figuring any other buffs in.
Not trying to downplay how much Marines improve under the new rules, just pointing out that an Intercessor squad should be outdamaging it's points in Guardsmen since it's still easier to remove the Intercessors from the table.
Actually for 9*2 lasguns with FRFSRF it is more like :
4.5 GEQ in cover
3 damage to a light vehicle (T5 only, if more T : 2 damage)
1 damage to a T7 3+ , OK
But fair point, considering that it is 110 points of IG versus 170 points of intercessors.
However, survivability wise it is quite different. SM have much more staying power than lowly guardsmen.
Actually actually, I did my numbers wrong. I was calculating the damge for two 10-man Guard squads because that's what a min squad of Intercessors costs and not figuring in the cost of the characters since they'd be in the list regardless. You said you were calculating for a max 10-man Intercessor squad, so I should have run the numbers for four squads of Guardsmen instead of two.
And yes, an Intercessor has more staying power than a Guardsman. He does not have more staying power than the four Guardsmen that you get for the same points.
If we're including the cost of the characters (which I think is a bad idea since the Marine characters buff more things so it balances out) then I should have used six squads of Guardsmen instead.
Xenomancers wrote: I think Ultras are going to get some doctrine manipulation - seeing now how that could be a big advantage.
Probably, but then you'll lose cover / exploding 6s / ignore AP1 / 6+++.
There are plenty of tradeoffs and marines will be no means be unstoppable.
Raven Guard marines in cover already HAD cover and -1 to be hit. Now it's worse, but their vehicles get it. Does this make RG marines more powerful than before? No.
Salamanders ignore AP1. Does this make them better against lasguns, pulse rifles, and choppas? Not one bit.
Iron Hands marines already had the 6+++, but now they overwatch better. This doesn't make them better except in very specific circumstances.
White Scars & Black Templars are all about the bikes or melee, so nothing for non-melee marines here, either.
Ultramarines are unchanged.
Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are the only ones that genuinely improved with exploding 6s.
So that leaves us with ONE extra AP situationally applied and likely to just infantry. THIS is what is going to break the game?
Unless you're waiting until turn THREE you're not getting AP on those flamer aggressors (unless UM can change it), which will ONLY be 3 aggressors in a tank that likely costs hundreds of points.
Guardsmen also screen your more expensive, better shooting units while the Intercessors themselves are the more expensive, better shooting unit. The value of just standing in the way of Tank Commanders and various artillery pieces cannot be overstated.
Salamanders not better? Are you kidding?
The vehicles get free re-rolls, the troops negate the AP modifier of extremely common weapons like Auto cannons, Heavy Bolters, etc
Iron Hands have vehicles that degrade less and also gain the 6+++ as well as better over-watch.
White Scars are no reliably capable of turn 1 charges.
The Impulsor base cost is 75 points.
Also let's not pick and chose comparisons in some vacuum scenarios. The tau are great at range, but less impressive once the distance is closed and a few key units removed.
Two ten-man Guardsman squads and the CC needed to order them cost 115pts.
With FRFSRF at long range, for 36 shots, they average two wounds against Primaris. That's one kill.
Seven Intercessors cost 119pts.
With Bolter Discipline, and Doctrine for bonus AP, for 14 shots, they average 6.22 wounds against Guard.
In a straight shootout the Intercessors kill 31% of their opposing number, while the Guardsmen manage 14%. The Intercessors out-shoot Guard by about 50% and are considerably more durable. If the Guardsmen can close to short range, then their relative killing power roughly equals out (remaining slight edge to the Intercessors), but Intercessors have longer range and are likely to get the first shot off.
If the Intercessors have the benefit of cover, their casualties are cut in half, making it even more lopsided. Guardsmen receive only a 20% increase in durability due to cover in this example.
I'm not going to debate the merits of board control or flexibility of Guard orders or vulnerability of Intercessors to plasma, but if you guys are going to do mathematical comparisons between Guard and Marines on planet bowling ball, either you take the cost of FRFSRF into account, or we can just as fairly assume the Marines are getting buffed by Guilliman and give them full re-rolls.
Spoletta wrote: Someone please tell me that marines are going up in points in this codex...
No because then there is no improvement.
Astartes need a boost to elevate them to be on par with other armies such as Orks and Eldar, who perform better overall.
Agreed, if they go up in cost it would be a huge step backwards. As much as I would prefer Marines being more durable, upping their damage potential this dramatically is a huge step in the right direction.
It will mean they can hurt the right units early (like proper Shock troops) and by extension take less damage later.
So long as the points do NOT increase, Marines will finally be posed to function more closely to their intended fluff, but hardly will be OP considering we've gotten no indication that Marines are getting any kind of durability buff (save a handful of Chapter Tactics that give a slight buff, but nothing substantial)
That seems surprisingly reasonable. Where're you hearing that from? (not disputing, just trying to source data)
Rumours knocking around, apparently the Incursors are 19 points each also, and the Las Fusils are 15 points. We'll know soon enough if this is correct.
If the Impulsor is 75, make it 85 by the time you factor in two storm bolters and an Ironhail heavy stubber.
I'm guessing the missile launcher would be 20 points? The Icarus cannon would be around 25? I imagine the invul bubble to cost more, probably 30/35 points? At 115 or 120 with a 4++ I'd happily run two of these and shoot them forward, with Aggressors in each one.
Ishagu wrote: Salamanders not better? Are you kidding?
The vehicles get free re-rolls, the troops negate the AP modifier of extremely common weapons like Auto cannons, Heavy Bolters, etc
Iron Hands have vehicles that degrade less and also gain the 6+++ as well as better over-watch.
White Scars are no reliably capable of turn 1 charges.
The Impulsor base cost is 75 points.
Also let's not pick and chose comparisons in some vacuum scenarios. The tau are great at range, but less impressive once the distance is closed and a few key units removed.
I'm talking strictly about marines as the uproar occurred after the doctrines.
Tactics applying to vehicles DOES give the armies themselves a boost. Does a single reroll for tanks who likely already hit on 3s and wound on 3s with reroll 1s for both tilt the game? I'm going to say not likely.
Impulsor should be rhino stats then I'd assume.
Also let's not pick and chose comparisons in some vacuum scenarios. The tau are great at range, but less impressive once the distance is closed and a few key units removed.
Ishagu wrote: Salamanders not better? Are you kidding?
The vehicles get free re-rolls, the troops negate the AP modifier of extremely common weapons like Auto cannons, Heavy Bolters, etc
Iron Hands have vehicles that degrade less and also gain the 6+++ as well as better over-watch.
White Scars are no reliably capable of turn 1 charges.
The Impulsor base cost is 75 points.
Also let's not pick and chose comparisons in some vacuum scenarios. The tau are great at range, but less impressive once the distance is closed and a few key units removed.
I have found it easier to outshoot Tau than trying to assault their castles. Tau are like an NPC boss fight from a video game.
I have found its as simple as plopping in cover and shooting their T3 3+ guys in cover with my T4 2+ guys. The fact that this is my method with BA is very depressing. But I'm not gonna be the other guy that charged in with 15 DC from DS and ended with zero after overwatch.
Xenomancers wrote: I think Ultras are going to get some doctrine manipulation - seeing now how that could be a big advantage.
Probably, but then you'll lose cover / exploding 6s / ignore AP1 / 6+++.
There are plenty of tradeoffs and marines will be no means be unstoppable.
Raven Guard marines in cover already HAD cover and -1 to be hit. Now it's worse, but their vehicles get it. Does this make RG marines more powerful than before? No.
Salamanders ignore AP1. Does this make them better against lasguns, pulse rifles, and choppas? Not one bit.
Iron Hands marines already had the 6+++, but now they overwatch better. This doesn't make them better except in very specific circumstances.
White Scars & Black Templars are all about the bikes or melee, so nothing for non-melee marines here, either.
Ultramarines are unchanged.
Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are the only ones that genuinely improved with exploding 6s.
So that leaves us with ONE extra AP situationally applied and likely to just infantry. THIS is what is going to break the game?
Unless you're waiting until turn THREE you're not getting AP on those flamer aggressors (unless UM can change it), which will ONLY be 3 aggressors in a tank that likely costs hundreds of points.
I'm pretty sure these doctrines affect your whole army simultaneously. You start with Dev Doc. So for alpha strike you are going to have to focus on heavy weapons (most likely on infanty) So Devastators with rockets getting ap3 / supressors getting ap-3 / intercessors with stalkers for ap-3 / And ap-3 eliminators. You could really make a full brigade of dev doctrine stuff.
I'm guessing the missile launcher would be 20 points? The Icarus cannon would be around 25? I imagine the invul bubble to cost more, probably 30/35 points? At 115 or 120 with a 4++ I'd happily run two of these and shoot them forward, with Aggressors in each one.
Missile cost will depend on if its a double (which I hope it wont be). If so expect CML pricing. Real question is whether it'll have Fly or not, and whether it can leave the large hardpoint empty.
Ishagu wrote: Yeah you just have to cut the range and get more guns to shoot them. Marines have plenty of ways to do it now.
I'm loving the Infiltrators that get the Captain aura everywhere on the table. They cripple GSC completely, and GSC are a hard counter to many lists.
You lose helix when you do that so no DS blocking.
The rule that blocks 12" arrivals is called Omni Scramblers. The Helix Adept gives the 5+ recover wound. Happy to trade that for re-roll hits all the time.
I'm guessing the missile launcher would be 20 points? The Icarus cannon would be around 25? I imagine the invul bubble to cost more, probably 30/35 points? At 115 or 120 with a 4++ I'd happily run two of these and shoot them forward, with Aggressors in each one.
Missile cost will depend on if its a double (which I hope it wont be). If so expect CML pricing. Real question is whether it'll have Fly or not, and whether it can leave the large hardpoint empty.
That seems surprisingly reasonable. Where're you hearing that from? (not disputing, just trying to source data)
Rumours knocking around, apparently the Incursors are 19 points each also, and the Las Fusils are 15 points. We'll know soon enough if this is correct.
If the Impulsor is 75, make it 85 by the time you factor in two storm bolters and an Ironhail heavy stubber.
I'm guessing the missile launcher would be 20 points? The Icarus cannon would be around 25? I imagine the invul bubble to cost more, probably 30/35 points? At 115 or 120 with a 4++ I'd happily run two of these and shoot them forward, with Aggressors in each one.
I'm pretty sure these doctrines affect your whole army simultaneously. You start with Dev Doc. So for alpha strike you are going to have to focus on heavy weapons (most likely on infanty) So Devastators with rockets getting ap3 / supressors getting ap-3 / intercessors with stalkers for ap-3 / And ap-3 eliminators. You could really make a full brigade of dev doctrine stuff.
Yes, absolutely - if you build your army for heavy you're going to benefit immediately, but then you're also making other tradeoffs.
Cramming in stalker bolt rifles will halve your shots and fix your position, so, unless you intend to snipe characters I can't see them doing much to hordes. For 33 points you get a suppressor with AP3. It's still S7, so what is it doing better? You have a whole army that never wants to move.
The rule that blocks 12" arrivals is called Omni Scramblers. The Helix Adept gives the 5+ recover wound. Happy to trade that for re-roll hits all the time.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If these boards are to be believed, many of you thought the executioner would NEVER be over 250. I called 350 and people called me dumb.
Now we are calling the new dakka boat 75pts? I need whatever you're smoking. I say BASE 150.
If it's not T8 and it has less than 12 wounds it shouldn't be that price.
I'm pretty sure these doctrines affect your whole army simultaneously. You start with Dev Doc. So for alpha strike you are going to have to focus on heavy weapons (most likely on infanty) So Devastators with rockets getting ap3 / supressors getting ap-3 / intercessors with stalkers for ap-3 / And ap-3 eliminators. You could really make a full brigade of dev doctrine stuff.
Yes, absolutely - if you build your army for heavy you're going to benefit immediately, but then you're also making other tradeoffs.
Cramming in stalker bolt rifles will halve your shots and fix your position, so, unless you intend to snipe characters I can't see them doing much to hordes. For 33 points you get a suppressor with AP3. It's still S7, so what is it doing better? You have a whole army that never wants to move.
That is kinda how marines play. You don't even want to move with your rapid fire weapons ether lol because bolter disc. That is why we like our repulsors.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If these boards are to be believed, many of you thought the executioner would NEVER be over 250. I called 350 and people called me dumb.
Now we are calling the new dakka boat 75pts? I need whatever you're smoking. I say BASE 150.
Why? It has far less weapons and will be t7 with less wounds.
Compare a Rhino to a Landraider.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If these boards are to be believed, many of you thought the executioner would NEVER be over 250. I called 350 and people called me dumb.
Now we are calling the new dakka boat 75pts? I need whatever you're smoking. I say BASE 150.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If these boards are to be believed, many of you thought the executioner would NEVER be over 250. I called 350 and people called me dumb.
Now we are calling the new dakka boat 75pts? I need whatever you're smoking. I say BASE 150.
If it's not T8 and it has less than 12 wounds it shouldn't be that price.
Yeah, its shaping up to be a Primaris Razorback, and is pretty close in price if statted accordingly.
For context, a naked Razorback clocks in at 70 points.
so admech gets 12 str 4 36" range for 73 points - carries 10 dudes - ignores to hit penalties for heavies. Is t6 but will have +2 wounds so basically same defensive profile. 105 with missle/ fly keyword/ special assault deployment.
Razorback does not have any of what this has, and PoTMS, repulsor washback, fly, fast as hell, possibly a 5(?)++, and all that is stock without the guns. No, you were all wrong on the Executioner by about 150 points. Why do think this will be different? What evidence do you have that GW is basing this thing off what the Rhino costs? I'm fairly certain the people writing these rules have never even touched a Rhino, let alone read the rules.
This will be 130-150 base. With all it's guns, 200ish.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Razorback does not have any of what this has, and PoTMS, repulsor washback, fly, fast as hell, possibly a 5(?)++, and all that is stock without the guns. No, you were all wrong on the Executioner by about 150 points. Why do think this will be different? What evidence do you have that GW is basing this thing off what the Rhino costs? I'm fairly certain the people writing these rules have never even touched a Rhino, let alone read the rules.
This will be 130-150 base. With all it's guns, 200ish.
Quantify 'fast as hell'. 5++ is an assumption. Washback is an assumption (though reasonable).
I wasn't involved the executioner debate. 250 for a model whose predecessor was at least 285 base makes me think you weren't talking with sane people.
Xenomancers wrote: It's a razorback that has fly and another special rule.
Seem more like an amalgamation between a rhino, a box to get you places, a whirlwind, rocket pod, and a stalker, iron hail icarus stuff. Though that will really only be good for bikes
Lol The Executioner was 284 with weapons when it was released.
The AdMech transport was never a flyer, it has no base. Flying units have bases.
The rumour said the base cost is 75. That's all there is to it. Recent rumors have been very accurate in regards to this release, right down to he Ultras and WS supplement.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Razorback does not have any of what this has, and PoTMS, repulsor washback, fly, fast as hell, possibly a 5(?)++, and all that is stock without the guns. No, you were all wrong on the Executioner by about 150 points. Why do think this will be different? What evidence do you have that GW is basing this thing off what the Rhino costs? I'm fairly certain the people writing these rules have never even touched a Rhino, let alone read the rules.
This will be 130-150 base. With all it's guns, 200ish.
No, it won't... The Repulsor was around 300 points before the update. So nobody was wrong by about 150 points.
The Impulsor base at 75 does seem cheap compared to the Rhino and Razorback. But, those tanks were overpriced. All this means to me is hopefully the Rhino chassis isn’t still 70 base vs the Impulsor 75 when the Impulsor gets more options and perks.
The Land Raider better get the assault transport rule...I don’t even use Land Raiders but for its cost and given the assault ramp prominent on the tank, it should get it or something similar.
What other transports in 8th have the assault Transport rule?
Most transports are unplayably bad dude. This is a valiant attempt to make them usable. Plenty of good units can just shoot you from their deployment zone. Hellblasters and aggressors can't - they need this.
Ishagu wrote: None, but the rule is probably free. Just like the shooting twice on a Leman Russ and the Executioner is free.
Is the shooting twice on a leman free though?
Don't know - A rapid fire battle cannon has the same ability as a LR commander with battlecannons. One costs 22 and one costs almost 100....We can't really make a call about what costs what. We can only look at the end result and compare. There is no question that the executioner is overcosted compared to the LR commander by what seems to be about 80 points now.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Wait las fusils for 15 points rumoured? Thats stupidly cheap for a Str 8 ap -3 D3 gun!
Is it? Not much different from a Plasma. It's less powerful than a Lascannon.
And Lascannons are 25 points, right?
So, for costing 40% less, you lose one point of Strength and change from Dd6 to D3. Which is worse against the big targets (Knights, Russes, Land Raiders) but better against W2 and W3 targets.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Wait las fusils for 15 points rumoured? Thats stupidly cheap for a Str 8 ap -3 D3 gun!
Is it? Not much different from a Plasma. It's less powerful than a Lascannon.
Yeah, but it's about as strong as a Missile Launcher overall and it's a fair bit cheaper than that too. Plus even at 16 points the Plasma Cannon is overpriced since it's suicidal to Overcharge it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So they can get the Falling Back thing without being subject to the -1 penalty. That's not bad actually.
No it specifically forbids advancing and falling back. BUT. This does mean ultramarines intercessors have become god mode. Can move and shoot heavies without pentalty - move and utilize bolter disc. It is a massive buff. I am satisfied. Sucks will have to wait until turn 2 to proc it but you start with devestator doctrine anyways which also benefits heavies. What units get access to doctrine is going to be a big deal.
Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.
Wayniac wrote: Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.
I'm not sure how I feel yet. The UM special doc DOES NOT apply turn 1. The tactical doctrine has to be on, which is the bolters doctrine. So heavies lose their AP, but can freely move.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So they can get the Falling Back thing without being subject to the -1 penalty. That's not bad actually.
No, they get to fire as though they were stationary if they didn't advance or fall back and Tactical Doctrine is active. Stupid good on Aggressors...
Situationally yes but they will have to advance to get in range most the time.
You can't get to Tactical Doctrine until turn two, your Aggressors should already have moved up by then. It also means they can disembark from a Repulsor or an Invictor and still fire at full effect that turn.
...it effectively gives every UM vehicle Machine Spirit. That ain't bad.
Wayniac wrote: Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.
What do you mean "always on", it's very clear how this works. It's a stratagem that costs you two CP, you can only use once per battle and only while the Tactical Doctrine is active.It lasts until the end of the Battle Round.
Is it? My Ultramarine friend just told me it was a constant thing, not a limited use thing. If it's limited then it's at least somewhat less ridiculous.
Wayniac wrote: Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.
What do you mean "always on", it's very clear how this works. It's a stratagem that costs you two CP, you can only use once per battle and only while the Tactical Doctrine is active.It lasts until the end of the Battle Round.
Is it? My Ultramarine friend just told me it was a constant thing, not a limited use thing. If it's limited then it's at least somewhat less ridiculous.
already edited my post - i mixed it up with Tactical Expertise, my mistake
Wayniac wrote: Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.
What do you mean "always on", it's very clear how this works. It's a stratagem that costs you two CP, you can only use once per battle and only while the Tactical Doctrine is active.It lasts until the end of the Battle Round.
Is it? My Ultramarine friend just told me it was a constant thing, not a limited use thing. If it's limited then it's at least somewhat less ridiculous.
He mixed two things a little, but the UM doc is turn 2 and forward only unless they have a strat to change docs.
Wayniac wrote: Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.
What do you mean "always on", it's very clear how this works. It's a stratagem that costs you two CP, you can only use once per battle and only while the Tactical Doctrine is active.It lasts until the end of the Battle Round.
Is it? My Ultramarine friend just told me it was a constant thing, not a limited use thing. If it's limited then it's at least somewhat less ridiculous.
Scions of Gulliman looks to be always on, pretty sure Nekooni is thinking of Tactical Expertise.
...it effectively gives every UM vehicle Machine Spirit. That ain't bad.
Only if doctrines apply to vehicles.
"If you read yesterday’s article on the new rules and units featured in Codex: Space Marines, you’ll know how the Combat Doctrines work. Well, such is the tactical mastery of the Ultramarines that they receive an additional benefit when the Tactical Doctrine is active – a handy advantage when moving squads or Vehicles armed with heavy weapons, and it also works well in conjunction with Bolter Discipline."
* - Making the possibly unwarranted assumption that the guys writing the previews actually understand the rules as written properly.
"If you read yesterday’s article on the new rules and units featured in Codex: Space Marines, you’ll know how the Combat Doctrines work. Well, such is the tactical mastery of the Ultramarines that they receive an additional benefit when the Tactical Doctrine is active – a handy advantage when moving squads or Vehicles armed with heavy weapons, and it also works well in conjunction with Bolter Discipline."
* - Making the possibly unwarranted assumption that the guys writing the previews actually understand the rules as written properly.
Well, today's article you mean. Good catch. We're in for a wild ride.
Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?
Hah.
Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.
Anyone able talk me out of it?
Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.
I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.
Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?
Hah.
Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.
Anyone able talk me out of it?
Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.
I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.
If one of the Sub-codexes isn't GK I will literally stop playing and sell all this crap. This is SSJ levels of power keep. Not like in OG: Dragon Ball, were everyone is the same basic power level (about 100). Now you have the Zeno sage of 40k, where the SMs are Goku, and the GK are basically Yamcha.
Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?
Hah.
Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.
Anyone able talk me out of it?
Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.
I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.
Put me down for Iron Hands getting a +1 to their FNP if within 6" of a character as their free equivalent to the Ultramarine ability.
Wayniac wrote: Unless I missed something if that Ultras doctrine is always on, that's so ridiculously broken even by GW standards it's not funny. That seems like it knocks balance into the stratosphere.
What do you mean "always on", it's very clear how this works. It's a stratagem that costs you two CP, you can only use once per battle and only while the Tactical Doctrine is active.It lasts until the end of the Battle Round.
Is it? My Ultramarine friend just told me it was a constant thing, not a limited use thing. If it's limited then it's at least somewhat less ridiculous.
Its always on whenever the tactical doctrine is up.
Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?
Hah.
Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.
Anyone able talk me out of it?
Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.
I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.
Put me down for Iron Hands getting a +1 to their FNP if within 6" of a character as their free equivalent to the Ultramarine ability.
Think of it more like a chapter tactic because ultras don't really have one. Iron hands shouldn't be getting anymore freebies.
"If you read yesterday’s article on the new rules and units featured in Codex: Space Marines, you’ll know how the Combat Doctrines work. Well, such is the tactical mastery of the Ultramarines that they receive an additional benefit when the Tactical Doctrine is active – a handy advantage when moving squads or Vehicles armed with heavy weapons, and it also works well in conjunction with Bolter Discipline."
* - Making the possibly unwarranted assumption that the guys writing the previews actually understand the rules as written properly.
Well, today's article you mean. Good catch. We're in for a wild ride.
Vehicles get doctrines? Or GW just sucks at writing rules or should I say the reviewer sucks at interpretation?
Vehicles get doctrines? Or GW just sucks at writing rules or should I say the reviewer sucks at interpretation?
It seems so. It's a running joke that the article writers don't know the rules, but I can't recall instances where they actually got it wrong with unambiguous wording.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If one of the Sub-codexes isn't GK I will literally stop playing and sell all this crap. This is SSJ levels of power keep. Not like in OG: Dragon Ball, were everyone is the same basic power level (about 100). Now you have the Zeno sage of 40k, where the SMs are Goku, and the GK are basically Yamcha.
From the Chapter Tactics preview:
** If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!
GKs are at least on tap to get some sort of update, but probably not one of those REDACTED books. Hopefully their .pdf is fairly extensive.
There's enough in the picture for all the 'Vanilla' founding chapters; UM, White Scars, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fist. No bets on whether they actually do it that way, or if they group them up somehow (Templars and CF bundled in with IF for instance), or if some.of the books are dedicated to completely new chapters or fleshing out the chapters like Emperor's Spears that were introduced in White Dwarf.
Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.
Kinda worried about what they're going to do for BT considering the strong shooting buffs they're throwing around. I'd really like to avoid being stuck in a shooting Codex with a melee army again.
Someone want to put out a post calling out all the folks who declared UM dead earlier this week?
Hah.
Well, I think i'm going to wander over to the this 'gak is going to be broken' side. Unless point increases are coming the "rules don't apply to Ultramarines" schtick is going to be hugely detrimental.
Anyone able talk me out of it?
Maybe I'm just frustrated and not thinking clearly.
I dread to think why FLG though Iron Hands was going to break the bank.
If this comes with doctrine manipluation. Ultras will still be on top. I never would have expected a rule this strong to be handed out for free...also...why isn't it just part of their chapter tact?
Xenomancers wrote: Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.
Once per game. If the Serg is carrying the Carbide, which probably replaces his proper gun. Still a good ability, but not quite as good as it looks at first glance.
If this comes with doctrine manipluation. Ultras will still be on top. I never would have expected a rule this strong to be handed out for free...also...why isn't it just part of their chapter tact?
Yea, it would have been a rule that was just fine on its own let alone stacking with the others. Good grief.
Xenomancers wrote: Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.
Once per game. If the Serg is carrying the Carbide, which probably replaces his proper gun. Still a good ability, but not quite as good as it looks at first glance.
From the wording, it appears to be once per TURN, not once per GAME.
Xenomancers wrote: Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.
No, I did not miss this, I've been taunting my buddy who plays GSC relentlessly with these updates.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not putting my expensive ass eliminators in smite range. Or double tap range.
Those kinds of things are situational. Thing is - you put them in front of a unit and force them as a charge target - you can completely block a charge and force them to fight 3 crummy eliminators.
Xenomancers wrote: Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.
No, I did not miss this, I've been taunting my buddy who plays GSC relentlessly with these updates.
As nice as the Ultramarine Doctrine is, Tallarn have had the same thing for free too and it hasn't exactly been gamebreaking.
It will be a big bonus for things like Repulsors, but a lot of Marine tanks wouldn't be seen much, don't move all that often because they have no reason to, or already have Power of the Machine Spirit.
Xenomancers wrote: Did you guys just miss how awesome eliminators overwatch ability is? They can overwatch and then move. The ultimate screening unit. Can use to block or get out of dodge.
Once per game. If the Serg is carrying the Carbide, which probably replaces his proper gun. Still a good ability, but not quite as good as it looks at first glance.
From the wording, it appears to be once per TURN, not once per GAME.
Edit: Rules pic.
Hurray for ambiguous wording. You're probably right though, when GW means once per game they tend to spell that out.
Sentineil wrote: As nice as the Ultramarine Doctrine is, Tallarn have had the same thing for free too and it hasn't exactly been gamebreaking.
It will be a big bonus for things like Repulsors, but a lot of Marine tanks wouldn't be seen much, don't move all that often because they have no reason to, or already have Power of the Machine Spirit.
Repulsors are already PotMS as well. Assbacks can ebenfit, but they lose the AP. Predators will benefit with being able hide and pop out to shoot. That's pretty much it for vehicles that want it.
It's really the marines themselves. And perhaps having really killer marines won't be bad, but I just don't like a setup where they ignore all the rules.
I like the Ultramarines doctrine. I wonder if everyone is going to get a doctrine?
Anyway I'm excited for aggressors hoping out of the new rhino or repulsor and shooting twice since they count as not moving. Mobile heavy weapons seems great and judging by this rule UM are going to be the mass infantry army archetype. I expect doctrines will not affect vehicles unless it says otherwise
Edit: oh Jeez doctrines effect vehicles. There is no chill here
Sentineil wrote: As nice as the Ultramarine Doctrine is, Tallarn have had the same thing for free too and it hasn't exactly been gamebreaking.
It will be a big bonus for things like Repulsors, but a lot of Marine tanks wouldn't be seen much, don't move all that often because they have no reason to, or already have Power of the Machine Spirit.
How is shooting like having not moved that powerful ? I can see my predator being very happy, but I would have enjoyed "no -1 after falling back" better. Vehicles are still pretty much useless of they fall back and shoot !
Ishagu wrote: My flamer Aggressors will now disembark from a transport and hit a unit with 100 Ap-1 auto hits.
I think the only saving grace is that it will be hard to have enough units in range. You'll certainly overkill the gak out of IS though.
Little consolation though.
A Repulsor can only hold 5 of the dudes, that's only 70 attacks on average. The Impulsor can only hold 3 assuming it can carry Aggressors at all (and it would be kind of a bummer if it couldn't) which is only 42. With rerolls the Boltstorms get 84 and 51 hits respectively. But when you need to fire overwatch...
Sentineil wrote: As nice as the Ultramarine Doctrine is, Tallarn have had the same thing for free too and it hasn't exactly been gamebreaking.
It will be a big bonus for things like Repulsors, but a lot of Marine tanks wouldn't be seen much, don't move all that often because they have no reason to, or already have Power of the Machine Spirit.
It's massive for redemptor dreads
I'm not sure it's massive for redeptors dreadnaughts yes, predators maybe.
But it doesn't do anything for PotMS Vehicals, doesn't start untill turn 2, marine vehicals arn't exactlly durability kings.
If anything I suspect Ultramarines might be the way to play mechanised infantry army a little oddly but fair enough. But not vehicals.
godardc wrote: How is shooting like having not moved that powerful ? I can see my predator being very happy, but I would have enjoyed "no -1 after falling back" better. Vehicles are still pretty much useless of they fall back and shoot !
On paper it isn't horrible when you gain back a simple -1. The flexibility it provides, however, can be strong. It shines most with bolter rules.
godardc wrote: How is shooting like having not moved that powerful ? I can see my predator being very happy, but I would have enjoyed "no -1 after falling back" better. Vehicles are still pretty much useless of they fall back and shoot !
Yeah. The chapter tactic is garbage - hopefully this is to make up for that. Aint no one gonna be playing ultras for the chapter tactic I assure you. Really giving marines relentless is what they have needed since forever. Freaking finally!
Sentineil wrote: As nice as the Ultramarine Doctrine is, Tallarn have had the same thing for free too and it hasn't exactly been gamebreaking.
It will be a big bonus for things like Repulsors, but a lot of Marine tanks wouldn't be seen much, don't move all that often because they have no reason to, or already have Power of the Machine Spirit.
It's massive for redemptor dreads
I'm not sure it's massive for redeptors dreadnaughts yes, predators maybe.
But it doesn't do anything for PotMS Vehicals, doesn't start untill turn 2, marine vehicals arn't exactlly durability kings.
If anything I suspect Ultramarines might be the way to play mechanised infantry army a little oddly but fair enough. But not vehicals.
Well - turn 1 a redemptor is getting -2 ap on all its guns minus storm bolters. Then turn 2 it's moving and shooting all its guns with no penalty and getting ap-1 on it's storm bolters. That is pretty big. redemptor dread is basically out most durable vehicle for it's points.
godardc wrote: How is shooting like having not moved that powerful ? I can see my predator being very happy, but I would have enjoyed "no -1 after falling back" better. Vehicles are still pretty much useless of they fall back and shoot !
Yeah. The chapter tactic is garbage - hopefully this is to make up for that. Aint no one gonna be playing ultras for the chapter tactic I assure you. Really giving marines relentless is what they have needed since forever. Freaking finally!
You keep saying that, but it continues to not be true.
Ice_can wrote: Ultramarines Leviathans, I can smell the salt already.
Honestly they do better with the devestator docterine. ap-3 with that. I like the successor with 3+ range for 11" flamers and 27 inch cannons with some kind of defensive trait for it's second tactic.
godardc wrote: How is shooting like having not moved that powerful ? I can see my predator being very happy, but I would have enjoyed "no -1 after falling back" better. Vehicles are still pretty much useless of they fall back and shoot !
Yeah. The chapter tactic is garbage - hopefully this is to make up for that. Aint no one gonna be playing ultras for the chapter tactic I assure you. Really giving marines relentless is what they have needed since forever. Freaking finally!
You keep saying that, but it continues to not be true.
God lord dude. It is terrible. Other tactics actually do things. Falling back and hitting on 5's is fething useless. Pretty much every unit in the army ether has fly keyword or is competent in melle. It is almost equal to not having a tactic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Because there's only one, and I keep him away from invulns when possible.
Why? Im pretty sure with 14+ attacks you are gonna 1 shot anything. It's never failed to kill mine usually without fighting twice. Keep in mind now...smash captains are getting buffed right here - you re getting an additional attack.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If one of the Sub-codexes isn't GK I will literally stop playing and sell all this crap. This is SSJ levels of power keep. Not like in OG: Dragon Ball, were everyone is the same basic power level (about 100). Now you have the Zeno sage of 40k, where the SMs are Goku, and the GK are basically Yamcha.
From the Chapter Tactics preview:
** If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!
GKs are at least on tap to get some sort of update, but probably not one of those REDACTED books. Hopefully their .pdf is fairly extensive.
There's enough in the picture for all the 'Vanilla' founding chapters; UM, White Scars, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fist. No bets on whether they actually do it that way, or if they group them up somehow (Templars and CF bundled in with IF for instance), or if some.of the books are dedicated to completely new chapters or fleshing out the chapters like Emperor's Spears that were introduced in White Dwarf.
I wouldn't get excited about vehicles with doctrines yet, WHC have already made mistakes with this release (dude showed off painted SW Centurions on FB page, lol). Dreads might get them, but I doubt other vehicles will.
I'm just waiting for the WHC oops response.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If one of the Sub-codexes isn't GK I will literally stop playing and sell all this crap. This is SSJ levels of power keep. Not like in OG: Dragon Ball, were everyone is the same basic power level (about 100). Now you have the Zeno sage of 40k, where the SMs are Goku, and the GK are basically Yamcha.
From the Chapter Tactics preview:
** If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!
GKs are at least on tap to get some sort of update, but probably not one of those REDACTED books. Hopefully their .pdf is fairly extensive.
There's enough in the picture for all the 'Vanilla' founding chapters; UM, White Scars, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Imperial Fist. No bets on whether they actually do it that way, or if they group them up somehow (Templars and CF bundled in with IF for instance), or if some.of the books are dedicated to completely new chapters or fleshing out the chapters like Emperor's Spears that were introduced in White Dwarf.
Don't do that.....don't give me hope!
It's probably just the change from ATSKNF to angels of death. I wouldn't get too excited
bullyboy wrote: I wouldn't get excited about vehicles with doctrines yet, WHC have already made mistakes with this release (dude showed off painted SW Centurions on FB page, lol). Dreads might get them, but I doubt other vehicles will.
I'm just waiting for the WHC oops response.
Yeah but even if it's not an oops it doesn't actually make much difference to repulsors or landraiders, it only effects predator, razorbacks and vindicators not exactly seen many of those for a while, predators might be spammed but they also die like flies.
bullyboy wrote: I wouldn't get excited about vehicles with doctrines yet, WHC have already made mistakes with this release (dude showed off painted SW Centurions on FB page, lol). Dreads might get them, but I doubt other vehicles will.
I'm just waiting for the WHC oops response.
First I'd heard about that, confirmed somewhere that SW aren't getting Cents?
Good so I can stop facing all those game breaking renegade guard units and marines lose access to those vindicator laser destroyers ruling the competitive scene.
Sentineil wrote: As nice as the Ultramarine Doctrine is, Tallarn have had the same thing for free too and it hasn't exactly been gamebreaking.
It will be a big bonus for things like Repulsors, but a lot of Marine tanks wouldn't be seen much, don't move all that often because they have no reason to, or already have Power of the Machine Spirit.
Because the Guard codex isn't chock-full of units that do special things when they don't move. You've got Leman Russes, which don't benefit much from the Tallarn doctrine, and that's it.
Conversely everything in the SM codex with a bolt weapon gets Bolter Drill, plus there are units like Aggressors and the new hovertank which can fire twice if they remain stationary. It's a much more significant buff.
Good so I can stop facing all those game breaking renegade guard units and marines lose access to those vindicator laser destroyers ruling the competitive scene.
Haven't you heard, Corsairs are filthy Aeldari jetbike spamming plebian competitive WAAC asshats.
There's all the FwOp stuff i tell you.
Martel732 wrote: Well, you've got ork charges and +1 A. Not a bad start.
Not a bad start, but there's going to have to be some salt-inducing levels of melee boosts to rival the Ultramarine boni from Tactical Doctrine.
I would hope for a stratagem that BTLRC gained the assault vehical rule.
You mean the ironically named rule as you can't charge after disembarking from an assualt vehical.
They would be better served with a rule that allowed them to charge on the turn they disembark.
Though I suspect the roid marines players would be salty about such a rule.
I wouldn't. CC focus chapter should CC better than shooty chapters. Reroll charge isn't enough. Yes - the strat should also allow them to charge. That is what it takes to have a good CC build. You have to be able to lay down a turn 1 charge with a strong unit.
Martel732 wrote: Well, you've got ork charges and +1 A. Not a bad start.
Not a bad start, but there's going to have to be some salt-inducing levels of melee boosts to rival the Ultramarine boni from Tactical Doctrine.
I would hope for a stratagem that BTLRC gained the assault vehical rule.
You mean the ironically named rule as you can't charge after disembarking from an assualt vehical.
They would be better served with a rule that allowed them to charge on the turn they disembark.
Though I suspect the roid marines players would be salty about such a rule.
I wouldn't. CC focus chapter should CC better than shooty chapters. Reroll charge isn't enough. Yes - the strat should also allow them to charge. That is what it takes to have a good CC build. You have to be able to lay down a turn 1 charge with a strong unit.
I agree I just find some of GW's decisions have a habit/had a habit of right idea failed execution. Or atleast did for 7th and early 8th edition, they had a good concept but just rushed it or epic failed at understanding their own rules interactions.
At this stage, wouldn't even be surprised.
Just a bit disheartened really.
Similar boat here.
On the one hand facing a bunch of intercessors never bugged me too much. Then again stalker rifles are wiping all my armor and bonus while in cover. I suppose the 5++ finally comes into play.
At this stage, wouldn't even be surprised.
Just a bit disheartened really.
Similar boat here.
On the one hand facing a bunch of intercessors never bugged me too much. Then again stalker rifles are wiping all my armor and bonus while in cover. I suppose the 5++ finally comes into play.
you know for all those times you see mass stalker bolters in a marine list
At this stage, wouldn't even be surprised.
Just a bit disheartened really.
Similar boat here.
On the one hand facing a bunch of intercessors never bugged me too much. Then again stalker rifles are wiping all my armor and bonus while in cover. I suppose the 5++ finally comes into play.
you know for all those times you see mass stalker bolters in a marine list
I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.
I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.
They were already close enough in performance to a bolt rifle I was building a squad for backfield objective camping as soon as my current two projects finished. Now I just have more incentive to hurry.
I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.
They were already close enough in performance to a bolt rifle I was building a squad for backfield objective camping as soon as my current two projects finished. Now I just have more incentive to hurry.
They were WAY behind in performance before the new buffs. An awful option. Now they can actually do something.
I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.
They were already close enough in performance to a bolt rifle I was building a squad for backfield objective camping as soon as my current two projects finished. Now I just have more incentive to hurry.
They were WAY behind in performance before the new buffs. An awful option. Now they can actually do something.
Vs T4 3+ -
Stalker
10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 2.24 after saves
Bolt Rifle
10 shots 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 1.7 after saves (No Rapid)
15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds 2.5 after saves (Half the time Rapid, Half the time not)
20 shots 13.5 hits, 6.7 wounding hits, 3.35 after saves (All Rapid, All Day)
Stalker with D2
10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 2.24 to 4.48 (assuming D2 matters - 3.36 assuming it matters half the time. )
They were within about 10% if you assumed only rapid firing half the time - a decent assumption for a backfield objective camper that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.
Not Online!!! wrote: Well then we basically can be certain that the Stalker rifle now is worth it.
There's more to it than that, but on a unit you're going to take anyway for CP Generation, yeah it's probably a viable choice. Loading up on 1 shot D2 weapons doesn't do you a lot of good vs a Gaunt horde for example. You want to make sure you still get out an effective number of shots per turn.
Not Online!!! wrote: Well then we basically can be certain that the Stalker rifle now is worth it.
There's more to it than that, but on a unit you're going to take anyway for CP Generation, yeah it's probably a viable choice. Loading up on 1 shot D2 weapons doesn't do you a lot of good vs a Gaunt horde for example. You want to make sure you still get out an effective number of shots per turn.
Considering the new fetish of stubbers for primaris, i somehow doubt that lack of dakka will be an issue.
I fully expect them now with the additional Penetration to show up aswell as sniping combo.
Maybee not standard, but certainly more often.
They were already close enough in performance to a bolt rifle I was building a squad for backfield objective camping as soon as my current two projects finished. Now I just have more incentive to hurry.
They were WAY behind in performance before the new buffs. An awful option. Now they can actually do something.
Vs T4 3+ -
Stalker
10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 2.24 after saves
Bolt Rifle
10 shots 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 1.7 after saves (No Rapid)
15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds 2.5 after saves (Half the time Rapid, Half the time not)
20 shots 13.5 hits, 6.7 wounding hits, 3.35 after saves (All Rapid, All Day)
Stalker with D2
10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.4 wounding hits, 2.24 to 4.48 (assuming D2 matters - 3.36 assuming it matters half the time. )
They were within about 10% if you assumed only rapid firing half the time - a decent assumption for a backfield objective camper that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.
You're not factoring in the loss of flexibility in not being able to move and fire effectively. I know you want to use them as objective campers, but being basically forced into that regardless of what happens is a really big downside to the weapon in my opinion.
I also don't think it's accurate to say the bolt rifle will be in rapid fire only half the time given the new bolter rules and being able to move and fire. They rapid fire out to 30" when camping, and can move and rapid fire 21".
You're not factoring in the loss of flexibility in not being able to move and fire effectively. I know you want to use them as objective campers, but being basically forced into that regardless of what happens is a really big downside to the weapon in my opinion.
I also don't think it's accurate to say the bolt rifle will be in rapid fire only half the time given the new bolter rules and being able to move and fire. They rapid fire out to 30" when camping, and can move and rapid fire 21".
that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.
I'm actually hypothesizing they only get to fire 2 out of 3 turns while objective camping. There's usually a 24 inch no man's land, add half your deployment zone and half of theirs and they may be out of range entirely. People don't frequently put objectives on the front line of their deployment zone, and you can't move far off of it and still score it. And I'm ignoring the move and fire penalty because I'm usually Ultras.
Edit to add: I should say I also don't expect being able to ignore move and fire heavy from the Tactical doctrine is going to last very long.
You're not factoring in the loss of flexibility in not being able to move and fire effectively. I know you want to use them as objective campers, but being basically forced into that regardless of what happens is a really big downside to the weapon in my opinion.
I also don't think it's accurate to say the bolt rifle will be in rapid fire only half the time given the new bolter rules and being able to move and fire. They rapid fire out to 30" when camping, and can move and rapid fire 21".
that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.
I'm actually hypothesizing they only get to fire 2 out of 3 turns while objective camping. There's usually a 24 inch no man's land, add half your deployment zone and half of theirs and they may be out of range entirely. People don't frequently put objectives on the front line of their deployment zone, and you can't move far off of it and still score it. And I'm ignoring the move and fire penalty because I'm usually Ultras.
Edit to add: I should say I also don't expect being able to ignore move and fire heavy from the Tactical doctrine is going to last very long.
I feel you are idealising circumstances for the Stalker is all.
Just a thought, but since they claim that the doctrines are part of the angels of death rule together with shock assault, does it mean that all astartes with Angels of Death will also get doctrines? Because in that case all non codex compliant chapters are quite happy.
keep in mind the stalker bolt rifle is in the current marine dex more expensive then the standard bolt rifle, not a lot but we should consider then when detirming if it's worth it
You're not factoring in the loss of flexibility in not being able to move and fire effectively. I know you want to use them as objective campers, but being basically forced into that regardless of what happens is a really big downside to the weapon in my opinion.
I also don't think it's accurate to say the bolt rifle will be in rapid fire only half the time given the new bolter rules and being able to move and fire. They rapid fire out to 30" when camping, and can move and rapid fire 21".
that couldn't have set up within 24" of most opposition units.
I'm actually hypothesizing they only get to fire 2 out of 3 turns while objective camping. There's usually a 24 inch no man's land, add half your deployment zone and half of theirs and they may be out of range entirely. People don't frequently put objectives on the front line of their deployment zone, and you can't move far off of it and still score it. And I'm ignoring the move and fire penalty because I'm usually Ultras.
Edit to add: I should say I also don't expect being able to ignore move and fire heavy from the Tactical doctrine is going to last very long.
Why not GW has play tested this codex and apparently we haven't even seen the most OP chapters yet or are you genuinely of the belief that Ultramarines shooting without a -1 to hit for heavys from turn 2 onwards is going to break the meta?
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind the stalker bolt rifle is in the current marine dex more expensive then the standard bolt rifle, not a lot but we should consider then when detirming if it's worth it
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind the stalker bolt rifle is in the current marine dex more expensive then the standard bolt rifle, not a lot but we should consider then when detirming if it's worth it
Nope, that's the auto bolt rifle. The Stalker is 0.
I know it's just a mechanic to make stalker rifles niche so may have absolute zero fluff justification, but I do wonder if there is any fluff justification for a stalker rifle to be D2 specifically whilst a heavy bolter is D1? I get the extra armour penetration of it, but the increased damage whilst a heavy bolter that fire larger bolts only being D1 still is a bit weird.
Again, I'm very prepared for it to just be an in game mechanic, but I do believe it is a bit daft fluff wise.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I know it's just a mechanic to make stalker rifles niche so may have absolute zero fluff justification, but I do wonder if there is any fluff justification for a stalker rifle to be D2 specifically whilst a heavy bolter is D1? I get the extra armour penetration of it, but the increased damage whilst a heavy bolter that fire larger bolts only being D1 still is a bit weird.
Again, I'm very prepared for it to just be an in game mechanic, but I do believe it is a bit daft fluff wise.
Game mechanic.
It's Like with the Kelermorphs stubpistols.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I know it's just a mechanic to make stalker rifles niche so may have absolute zero fluff justification, but I do wonder if there is any fluff justification for a stalker rifle to be D2 specifically whilst a heavy bolter is D1? I get the extra armour penetration of it, but the increased damage whilst a heavy bolter that fire larger bolts only being D1 still is a bit weird.
Again, I'm very prepared for it to just be an in game mechanic, but I do believe it is a bit daft fluff wise.
I can kind of see where you're coming from but from a mechanical perspective Heavy 2 D1 is too close to Rapid Fire 1 D1 with Bolter Discipline, and from an "aesthetic should inform rules" perspective the tiny magazine and big scope on that gun implies that it's not meant to be throwing a hail of lead down range.
I feel you are idealising circumstances for the Stalker is all.
I can see you feel that. But I've countered all your objections with what I think are fairly reasonable points.
The Stalker can go from deployment edge to opposing table edge on most table/deployments.
UM Stalkers can move and fire (probably - for at least a little while)
I feel 2/3 Bolt Rifles Rapid Fire isn't unreasonable for an average when comparing pre-Doctrine/Scions Bolt Rifles that want to stay behind your deployment edge and Stalkers as "where they were" in comparison to each other. Post doctrine both can move and fire without penalty that lets the Bolt Rifle assume to double tap every turn, but that still leaves them on par with the Stalker vs mutli-wound armies. The Bolt Rifle will have an additional -1 if you want to use Tactical to move and fire, while if you don't need to move and fire and swap to Devastator the Stalkers are now -3 D2.
I feel you are idealising circumstances for the Stalker is all.
I can see you feel that. But I've countered all your objections with what I think are fairly reasonable points.
The Stalker can go from deployment edge to opposing table edge on most table/deployments.
UM Stalkers can move and fire (probably - for at least a little while)
I feel 2/3 Bolt Rifles Rapid Fire isn't unreasonable for an average when comparing pre-Doctrine/Scions Bolt Rifles that want to stay behind your deployment edge and Stalkers as "where they were" in comparison to each other. Post doctrine both can move and fire without penalty that lets the Bolt Rifle assume to double tap every turn, but that still leaves them on par with the Stalker vs mutli-wound armies. The Bolt Rifle will have an additional -1 if you want to use Tactical to move and fire, while if you don't need to move and fire and swap to Devastator the Stalkers are now -3 D2.
You can never swap to Devastator, switching to Tactical is a one-way trip. Same goes for Assault.
I just had this kind of horrid realisation that the Indominus Crusade specialist detachment still works on all the Chapter traits so you can pick a DIY chapter with "extra hits on 6s", Grey Shield it for Seige Masters, then throw Liberators and Rapid Fire on a big 10-man unit. Yeah it's 4 CPs but every 6 to hit generates 3 more hits on a unit that makes 40 shots to begin with.
And if (by some massive oversite) Bolter Drill survives and DIY successor chapters can use it then you can generate another hit on 5s if you stack Target Priority. Yes you just spent 5 CPs, but your 10-man Intercessor squad just put out 70 hits on average dice.
You can never swap to Devastator, switching to Tactical is a one-way trip. Same goes for Assault.
I've heard people postulate Guilliman might have doctrine shenanigans, but you're right, I should have said Use instead of Swap to.
Right your argument is very unclear and implied a total diffrent understanding of the rules, stalkers imho will make sence for someone how doesn't play ultramarines but even then I would say it's an edge case, you can use units with omni scrambles and the link to buffs aslong as the captain is on the table. Better shooting buffs at lower cost and 12 inches of now deepstrike vrs some 2d heavy 1 shot bolter
stalkers imho will make sence for someone how doesn't play ultramarines but even then I would say it's an edge case, you can use units with omni scrambles and the link to buffs aslong as the captain is on the table. Better shooting buffs at lower cost and 12 inches of now deepstrike vrs some 2d heavy 1 shot bolter
You're talking about.. Infiltrators? They serve a different purpose. One gets to sit in the back and plink, one gets to infiltrate and shortcut across the field. And no, UM makes huge sense for Stalkers.(Assuming all we think we know about the little that's been revealed so far) Tactical still lets them move and fire without penalty. They get to start as -3 D2,
My list is probably going to end up with One Infiltrator, two Intercessor - One Bolt Rifle, one Stalker for the Battalion troop - Park the Stalkers, infiltrate the Infiltrators, and roam the Bolt Rifles. Depending on CP Generation, I might even make them Vets, but probably not.
The Newman wrote: I just had this kind of horrid realisation that the Indominus Crusade specialist detachment still works on all the Chapter traits so you can pick a DIY chapter with "extra hits on 6s", Grey Shield it for Seige Masters, then throw Liberators and Rapid Fire on a big 10-man unit. Yeah it's 4 CPs but every 6 to hit generates 3 more hits on a unit that makes 40 shots to begin with.
And if (by some massive oversite) Bolter Drill survives and DIY successor chapters can use it then you can generate another hit on 5s if you stack Target Priority. Yes you just spent 5 CPs, but your 10-man Intercessor squad just put out 70 hits on average dice.
Like a couple of the other examples I am seeing thrown around it looks impressive but is it really that awesome?
So in a competitive environment what might you want to shoot that takes that many shots, perhaps a big blob of Plague Bearers.
First up you are -1 to hit so the Target Priority leaves you where you were, at best when we remember that big Plague Bearer blobs are generally made to be -2 to hit.
So let us suppose by some weird combo of psychic powers or stratagems we can ignore or bypass the -2 to hit and we actually get all those 70 hits.
That translates into around 43 wounds.
Half of those are saved by a 4++ so lets say 22 wounds get through.
1/3 of those get ignored because Nurgle. So you are looking at about 14-15 casualties. We used a 170 point unit and 5CP plus some other stuff that we do not know if it will really exist yet to remove around 100 points of Plague Bearers.
Don't get me wrong, this is not awful as the whole point of Plague Bearers is that they are hard to remove but nor can we do this with multiple units per turn because all those strats etc are restricted to one per phase. It is hardly going to break the game at any competitive level. It makes Space Marines a bit less helpless against durable chaff but that's all, it is certainly not a win button.
stalkers imho will make sence for someone how doesn't play ultramarines but even then I would say it's an edge case, you can use units with omni scrambles and the link to buffs aslong as the captain is on the table. Better shooting buffs at lower cost and 12 inches of now deepstrike vrs some 2d heavy 1 shot bolter
You're talking about.. Infiltrators? They serve a different purpose. One gets to sit in the back and plink, one gets to infiltrate and shortcut across the field. And no, UM makes huge sense for Stalkers.(Assuming all we think we know about the little that's been revealed so far) Tactical still lets them move and fire without penalty. They get to start as -3 D2,
My list is probably going to end up with One Infiltrator, two Intercessor - One Bolt Rifle, one Stalker for the Battalion troop - Park the Stalkers, infiltrate the Infiltrators, and roam the Bolt Rifles. Depending on CP Generation, I might even make them Vets, but probably not.
Stalkers turn 1 vrs bolt rifles turn 1
Heavy vrs rapid fire, ap-3vrs Ap-1, D2 vrs D1 from turn two onwards thats so not worthwhile
As you'll be in tactical doctrine
Its now heavy 1 vrs rapid fire with bolter discipline aka 2
So half the fire power, S same, Ap same.
I don't see why your so hyped about UM stalkers they still look meh at best for other chapters that stay in devistator doctrine maybe.
I'm guessing you've never seen someone drop a GSC unit onto your engineers or such then as that 12 inches of deepstrike Foff is money for a unit hanging back on it's own.
stalkers imho will make sence for someone how doesn't play ultramarines but even then I would say it's an edge case, you can use units with omni scrambles and the link to buffs aslong as the captain is on the table. Better shooting buffs at lower cost and 12 inches of now deepstrike vrs some 2d heavy 1 shot bolter
You're talking about.. Infiltrators? They serve a different purpose. One gets to sit in the back and plink, one gets to infiltrate and shortcut across the field. And no, UM makes huge sense for Stalkers.(Assuming all we think we know about the little that's been revealed so far) Tactical still lets them move and fire without penalty. They get to start as -3 D2,
My list is probably going to end up with One Infiltrator, two Intercessor - One Bolt Rifle, one Stalker for the Battalion troop - Park the Stalkers, infiltrate the Infiltrators, and roam the Bolt Rifles. Depending on CP Generation, I might even make them Vets, but probably not.
Stalkers turn 1 vrs bolt rifles turn 1
Heavy vrs rapid fire, ap-3vrs Ap-1, D2 vrs D1 from turn two onwards thats so not worthwhile
As you'll be in tactical doctrine
Its now heavy 1 vrs rapid fire with bolter discipline aka 2
So half the fire power, S same, Ap same.
I don't see why your so hyped about UM stalkers they still look meh at best for other chapters that stay in devistator doctrine maybe.
I'm guessing you've never seen someone drop a GSC unit onto your engineers or such then as that 12 inches of deepstrike Foff is money for a unit hanging back on it's own.
The stalker is D2. So tomatoes tomatos vs lots of targets. It's not worth spamming them. It is worth bringing 1 unit though I think to use the sniper stratagem. #1 that does mortal wounds on 6's #2 that allows you to target characters. If there is multi wound stuff to shoot in the game they will perform about equal to a bolt rfile and BETTER on turn 1 by a large margine. They are really bad vs hordes though.If you face hordes - pout that unit into CC first.
Xenomancers wrote: The stalker is D2. So tomatoes tomatos vs lots of targets. It's not worth spamming them. It is worth bringing 1 unit though I think to use the sniper stratagem. #1 that does mortal wounds on 6's #2 that allows you to target characters. If there is multi wound stuff to shoot in the game they will perform about equal to a bolt rfile and BETTER on turn 1 by a large margine. They are really bad vs hordes though.If you face hordes - pout that unit into CC first.
In general though, this is how it should be. Same goes if the rumour is true that Auto BRs may be Assault 3. D2 Stalker and Assault 3 Auto BR are both better than RF BRs at their intended targets, by enough of a margin that 1-2 units with each are worth taking. But the RF BR is a better all-rounder weapon to spam. If the Auto BR is indeed Assault 3 (but 1-2ppm over the RF BR), then GW deserves a pat on the back.
The Newman wrote: I just had this kind of horrid realisation that the Indominus Crusade specialist detachment still works on all the Chapter traits so you can pick a DIY chapter with "extra hits on 6s", Grey Shield it for Seige Masters, then throw Liberators and Rapid Fire on a big 10-man unit. Yeah it's 4 CPs but every 6 to hit generates 3 more hits on a unit that makes 40 shots to begin with.
And if (by some massive oversite) Bolter Drill survives and DIY successor chapters can use it then you can generate another hit on 5s if you stack Target Priority. Yes you just spent 5 CPs, but your 10-man Intercessor squad just put out 70 hits on average dice.
But you're also taking a biig target that won't easily have cover and you'd want redundancy so your cost and CP generation will be skewed.
Xenomancers wrote: The stalker is D2. So tomatoes tomatos vs lots of targets. It's not worth spamming them. It is worth bringing 1 unit though I think to use the sniper stratagem. #1 that does mortal wounds on 6's #2 that allows you to target characters. If there is multi wound stuff to shoot in the game they will perform about equal to a bolt rfile and BETTER on turn 1 by a large margine. They are really bad vs hordes though.If you face hordes - pout that unit into CC first.
In general though, this is how it should be. Same goes if the rumour is true that Auto BRs may be Assault 3.
D2 Stalker and Assault 3 Auto BR are both better than RF BRs at their intended targets, by enough of a margin that 1-2 units with each are worth taking. But the RF BR is a better all-rounder weapon to spam. If the Auto BR is indeed Assault 3 (but 1-2ppm over the RF BR), then GW deserves a pat on the back.
-
Except if your chasing multi damage/snipers why not go eliminators as the look way better than stalkers.
Also their is an underlying assumption going on that the vigilous marine stuff is still valid post codex 2.0
While none of it is game breaking without some of those buffs a number of these options are still relatively weak.
Xenomancers wrote: The stalker is D2. So tomatoes tomatos vs lots of targets. It's not worth spamming them. It is worth bringing 1 unit though I think to use the sniper stratagem. #1 that does mortal wounds on 6's #2 that allows you to target characters. If there is multi wound stuff to shoot in the game they will perform about equal to a bolt rfile and BETTER on turn 1 by a large margine. They are really bad vs hordes though.If you face hordes - pout that unit into CC first.
In general though, this is how it should be. Same goes if the rumour is true that Auto BRs may be Assault 3.
D2 Stalker and Assault 3 Auto BR are both better than RF BRs at their intended targets, by enough of a margin that 1-2 units with each are worth taking. But the RF BR is a better all-rounder weapon to spam. If the Auto BR is indeed Assault 3 (but 1-2ppm over the RF BR), then GW deserves a pat on the back.
-
Except if your chasing multi damage/snipers why not go eliminators as the look way better than stalkers.
Also their is an underlying assumption going on that the vigilous marine stuff is still valid post codex 2.0
While none of it is game breaking without some of those buffs a number of these options are still relatively weak.
It is valid. It's possible these rules are actually in the codex themselves. It's not a big assumption ether. These rules just came out and they can still sell the books - to make them invalid makes no business sense (nether does putting them in the codex but that is just good form if they do that).
Xenomancers wrote: The stalker is D2. So tomatoes tomatos vs lots of targets. It's not worth spamming them. It is worth bringing 1 unit though I think to use the sniper stratagem. #1 that does mortal wounds on 6's #2 that allows you to target characters. If there is multi wound stuff to shoot in the game they will perform about equal to a bolt rfile and BETTER on turn 1 by a large margine. They are really bad vs hordes though.If you face hordes - pout that unit into CC first.
In general though, this is how it should be. Same goes if the rumour is true that Auto BRs may be Assault 3.
D2 Stalker and Assault 3 Auto BR are both better than RF BRs at their intended targets, by enough of a margin that 1-2 units with each are worth taking. But the RF BR is a better all-rounder weapon to spam. If the Auto BR is indeed Assault 3 (but 1-2ppm over the RF BR), then GW deserves a pat on the back.
-
Except if your chasing multi damage/snipers why not go eliminators as the look way better than stalkers.
Also their is an underlying assumption going on that the vigilous marine stuff is still valid post codex 2.0
While none of it is game breaking without some of those buffs a number of these options are still relatively weak.
It is valid. It's possible these rules are actually in the codex themselves. It's not a big assumption ether. These rules just came out and they can still sell the books - to make them invalid makes no business sense (nether does putting them in the codex but that is just good form if they do that).
Vigilous is over (or atleast GW is making zero mention of any more stuff coming) and would still sell for guard, admech, GSC, choas etc.
The marine rules being obsoleted by a new codex wouldn't stop GW producing and selling the books for everyone else.
The Newman wrote: I just had this kind of horrid realisation that the Indominus Crusade specialist detachment still works on all the Chapter traits so you can pick a DIY chapter with "extra hits on 6s", Grey Shield it for Seige Masters, then throw Liberators and Rapid Fire on a big 10-man unit. Yeah it's 4 CPs but every 6 to hit generates 3 more hits on a unit that makes 40 shots to begin with.
And if (by some massive oversite) Bolter Drill survives and DIY successor chapters can use it then you can generate another hit on 5s if you stack Target Priority. Yes you just spent 5 CPs, but your 10-man Intercessor squad just put out 70 hits on average dice.
Like a couple of the other examples I am seeing thrown around it looks impressive but is it really that awesome?
So in a competitive environment what might you want to shoot that takes that many shots, perhaps a big blob of Plague Bearers.
First up you are -1 to hit so the Target Priority leaves you where you were, at best when we remember that big Plague Bearer blobs are generally made to be -2 to hit.
So let us suppose by some weird combo of psychic powers or stratagems we can ignore or bypass the -2 to hit and we actually get all those 70 hits.
That translates into around 43 wounds.
Half of those are saved by a 4++ so lets say 22 wounds get through.
1/3 of those get ignored because Nurgle. So you are looking at about 14-15 casualties. We used a 170 point unit and 5CP plus some other stuff that we do not know if it will really exist yet to remove around 100 points of Plague Bearers.
Don't get me wrong, this is not awful as the whole point of Plague Bearers is that they are hard to remove but nor can we do this with multiple units per turn because all those strats etc are restricted to one per phase. It is hardly going to break the game at any competitive level. It makes Space Marines a bit less helpless against durable chaff but that's all, it is certainly not a win button.
If one squad of Plaguebearers is -2 4++...
Shoot the other squad. There can be, at most, one squad affected by the -1 Psychic Power, and one squad affected by the 4++ strat. In addition, the 4++ is declared at the START of the phase, NOT in response to being shot at.
The Newman wrote: I just had this kind of horrid realisation that the Indominus Crusade specialist detachment still works on all the Chapter traits so you can pick a DIY chapter with "extra hits on 6s", Grey Shield it for Seige Masters, then throw Liberators and Rapid Fire on a big 10-man unit. Yeah it's 4 CPs but every 6 to hit generates 3 more hits on a unit that makes 40 shots to begin with.
And if (by some massive oversite) Bolter Drill survives and DIY successor chapters can use it then you can generate another hit on 5s if you stack Target Priority. Yes you just spent 5 CPs, but your 10-man Intercessor squad just put out 70 hits on average dice.
Like a couple of the other examples I am seeing thrown around it looks impressive but is it really that awesome?
So in a competitive environment what might you want to shoot that takes that many shots, perhaps a big blob of Plague Bearers.
First up you are -1 to hit so the Target Priority leaves you where you were, at best when we remember that big Plague Bearer blobs are generally made to be -2 to hit.
So let us suppose by some weird combo of psychic powers or stratagems we can ignore or bypass the -2 to hit and we actually get all those 70 hits.
That translates into around 43 wounds.
Half of those are saved by a 4++ so lets say 22 wounds get through.
1/3 of those get ignored because Nurgle. So you are looking at about 14-15 casualties. We used a 170 point unit and 5CP plus some other stuff that we do not know if it will really exist yet to remove around 100 points of Plague Bearers.
Don't get me wrong, this is not awful as the whole point of Plague Bearers is that they are hard to remove but nor can we do this with multiple units per turn because all those strats etc are restricted to one per phase. It is hardly going to break the game at any competitive level. It makes Space Marines a bit less helpless against durable chaff but that's all, it is certainly not a win button.
That's not always a solution. The -1 almost always goes on the one that NEEDS removed. PB are busted as feth, and most of the new marine changes do nothing to help.
Also their is an underlying assumption going on that the vigilous marine stuff is still valid post codex 2.0
I really want to know why you're so obsessive about pushing the "CAMPAIGN BOOKS DONT COUNT ANYMORE" narrative.
What are you talking about this is the first time I've mentioned it
I mentioned it up-thread and it got bandied about some, Sterling might have just conflated that with you mentioning the possibility. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened here.
Also their is an underlying assumption going on that the vigilous marine stuff is still valid post codex 2.0
I really want to know why you're so obsessive about pushing the "CAMPAIGN BOOKS DONT COUNT ANYMORE" narrative.
What are you talking about this is the first time I've mentioned it
I mentioned it up-thread and it got bandied about some, Sterling might have just conflated that with you mentioning the possibility. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened here.
The Newman wrote: I just had this kind of horrid realisation that the Indominus Crusade specialist detachment still works on all the Chapter traits so you can pick a DIY chapter with "extra hits on 6s", Grey Shield it for Seige Masters, then throw Liberators and Rapid Fire on a big 10-man unit. Yeah it's 4 CPs but every 6 to hit generates 3 more hits on a unit that makes 40 shots to begin with.
And if (by some massive oversite) Bolter Drill survives and DIY successor chapters can use it then you can generate another hit on 5s if you stack Target Priority. Yes you just spent 5 CPs, but your 10-man Intercessor squad just put out 70 hits on average dice.
But you're also taking a biig target that won't easily have cover and you'd want redundancy so your cost and CP generation will be skewed.
Yeah it's not a good idea, I was just a little surprised to note that it's still possible because GW didn't change the names of any of the founding chapter traits and Indominus Crusade calls them out by name. You could just use Grey Shield to double up your "extra hit on a six" for all of your Intercessors and Inceptors once a game, and maybe double down on it with Liberators/Rapid Fire/possibly Bolter Drill as well.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I know it's just a mechanic to make stalker rifles niche so may have absolute zero fluff justification, but I do wonder if there is any fluff justification for a stalker rifle to be D2 specifically whilst a heavy bolter is D1? I get the extra armour penetration of it, but the increased damage whilst a heavy bolter that fire larger bolts only being D1 still is a bit weird.
Again, I'm very prepared for it to just be an in game mechanic, but I do believe it is a bit daft fluff wise.
Game mechanic.
It's Like with the Kelermorphs stubpistols.
The kelermorph pistols do happen to have a fluff reason though:
"Indentured workers risk their lives to smuggle traces of lethal chemical elements out of the sprawling arms factories in which they toil away their existence. They fashion these rare elements into custom bullets, slugs of metal tipped with depleted volonium that can pierce Power Armour and even the hulls of light tanks. The crafting of such munitions often douses the maker in deadly waves of radiation, but they willingly accept their fate, making a final pilgrimage to present their gift to the hero of the revolution before succumbing to the sickness ravaging their bodies."
Stalker Bolt Rifles might have something similar, where the bullets have different materials or designs, like a mass-produced Master-Crafted Weapon. Perhaps they'll give a justification in the new codex, assuming the stat change was made before it was written.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I know it's just a mechanic to make stalker rifles niche so may have absolute zero fluff justification, but I do wonder if there is any fluff justification for a stalker rifle to be D2 specifically whilst a heavy bolter is D1? I get the extra armour penetration of it, but the increased damage whilst a heavy bolter that fire larger bolts only being D1 still is a bit weird.
Again, I'm very prepared for it to just be an in game mechanic, but I do believe it is a bit daft fluff wise.
Game mechanic.
It's Like with the Kelermorphs stubpistols.
The kelermorph pistols do happen to have a fluff reason though:
"Indentured workers risk their lives to smuggle traces of lethal chemical elements out of the sprawling arms factories in which they toil away their existence. They fashion these rare elements into custom bullets, slugs of metal tipped with depleted volonium that can pierce Power Armour and even the hulls of light tanks. The crafting of such munitions often douses the maker in deadly waves of radiation, but they willingly accept their fate, making a final pilgrimage to present their gift to the hero of the revolution before succumbing to the sickness ravaging their bodies."
Stalker Bolt Rifles might have something similar, where the bullets have different materials or designs, like a mass-produced Master-Crafted Weapon. Perhaps they'll give a justification in the new codex, assuming the stat change was made before it was written.
IT's still a bloody Stubpistol which just so happen to has an actual pistol it's range is 6" S3 No Ap D 1. Are you going to tell me that a gakky revolver will even be able to use that ammo?
I get the requirement that Marines needed a boost in the present meta and that they were frequently ignored in preference to other factions, I am also genuinely pleased that GW has heard the pleas of marine players, but am I the only one concerned that they have jumped too far the other way?
Why take any other faction when a marine has it better (YMMV)? People took specific factions because some aspect of their gameplay appealed to them. Is anyone going to bother when they can buy a marine army and get to do all the specific things they could, but better?
It will be interesting to see if there is a major rewrite of the points costs for the units.
