zedmeister wrote: Well, this box set is going to be expensive. Using existing model prices as a guide:
Contemptor - £35
4x MkIV/MkIII - £120
2x Cataphractii - £80
Heros - £30
Most expensive Land Raider (subbing in for a spartan) - £60
Leaving us, at minimum (unlikely), £325 worth of models. Anyone got an idea on how that compares to Indomitus?
Most of those units are priced far at a premium vs when they were part of the box set. Calth was 30 marines, 5 terminators, 2 characters and a contemptor for iirc $150. Adding 5 terminators, a spartan, and 10 more marines I could see it going for $230 to 250 range
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I think it's very interesting that GW hasn't acknowledged this huge leak, when doing so seems to have be their more recent response to leaks.
That makes me think that it's probably the next "big" release after the new sigmar set and they don't want to take any attention away from that until they have all their launch sales locked in.
grahamdbailey wrote: I think GW have missed a trick by giving Cataphractii in this set, rather than releasing a decent set of Saturnine Terminators, although who knows, they may yet make an appearance?
If these models make their way into 40k I sure hope that you can mix and match weapons loadouts for the Contemptor. I'd hate for the options to state: DCCW and multimelta/assault/twin autocannon. If you have an autocannon you can take a cyclone launcher.
Other than that, I hope these option also bleed over to the Custodes dreadnoughts, they need some love.
Do you think the Dreadnought will have any other optional weapons? What would you include, Plasma Cannon perhaps?
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I think it's very interesting that GW hasn't acknowledged this huge leak, when doing so seems to have be their more recent response to leaks.
That makes me think that it's probably the next "big" release after the new sigmar set and they don't want to take any attention away from that until they have all their launch sales locked in.
It usually takes them a few days to acknowledge leaks. Don't forget this broke on a saturday when the staff were off the clock, they probably only started working on the relevant copy this morning, they will have to do photography, put it through editing, get approvals from up the chain, etc.
My bet is that this is slotted into a fall release slot, as the timing on this reminds me of the timing on Speed Freeks, which leaked early summer but didn't release until september or october (or november?) iirc.
That seems unlikely when the leaks in question appear to be of production photos of the models. GW works years ahead on their releases, so given that we're seeing captures of painted eavy metal in production shots, your assertion seems unlikely.
I think this is just down to marketing and making sure people buy the hit of the current plastic crack the company is peddling before they get distracted by the next big thing.
My gf works marketing for one of GWs main competitors (insofar as GW has competitors, anyway), if GWs marketing is anything like theirs, then the copy hasn't been written yet and the marketing team probably were themselves in the dark about it, unless the release was imminent (and by imminent I mean this month).
grahamdbailey wrote: I think GW have missed a trick by giving Cataphractii in this set, rather than releasing a decent set of Saturnine Terminators, although who knows, they may yet make an appearance?
I thought the same thing.
Same-ish. The "Scenery Not Included" tag makes me wonder as I don't know if thats that would appear in WD photography?
But also, from what has been said in the past WD is printed more or less immediately before its released (like 2-3 weeks). IIRC the next WD is out next week, and I very much doubt this article appears in *that* White Dwarf as I believe they already showed us the contents page for it, but also because it would steel AoS's thunder, so its unlikely to be a WD leak on the basis that the *next* WD issue is still weeks away from going to print itself.
GW really hasn't been as consistent with addressing leaks as they used to. Remember when the new land speeders leaked? They never showed them off, not even during actual preview days. We had to wait forever before we got confirmation.
The Landspeeder leak was literally a couple blurry spotches of color and there were all sorts of debates as to what it was depicting. Its fair to say they chose not to address the leak because the cat wasn't really out of the bag at the time, unlike *this*.
tauist wrote: I was thinking that other than for the few HQs in the new box, what exactly prevents one from using all of the models in the box for a single legion/army? Most of the iconography looks decal-based so should be easy to pull off.
That's what I'm going to be doing at least.
Nothing, its done that way purposefully, no different than Betrayal at Calth or Burning of Prospero. The only caveat is the characters might be legion-locked with specific sons of horus/imperial fists iconography molded on, they did something similar with Burning of Prospero.
Basing my numbers on the assumption that the composite image above is from the back of the box. You can just about count 40 Mk VI and 10 Cataphractii...
I think the composite is wrong. I suspect its actually photos of two different setups rather than one big one. In particular the palcement of the Contemptor seems unlikely/impossible. I also find it weird that there are two separate bundles of dice in the photo.
They did a video just for the Lumineth models that had leaked, so they must have put it together quickly in response to the leak.
Assuming leak wasn't intentional so the video response wasn't made in advance.
Dont' recall lumineth but was it the suspiciously bad quality level? The level that requires intentional effort to have so bad? And then often followed by GW response very fast.
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tauist wrote: I was thinking that other than for the few HQs in the new box, what exactly prevents one from using all of the models in the box for a single legion/army? Most of the iconography looks decal-based so should be easy to pull off.
That's what I'm going to be doing at least.
Likely nothing. That's how previous 2 boxes were. Prospero had legion specific characters but calth was 100% legion neutral and I doubt many really split as shown. Discount box for models to build your legion it was.
cuda1179 wrote: If these models make their way into 40k I sure hope that you can mix and match weapons loadouts for the Contemptor. I'd hate for the options to state: DCCW and multimelta/assault/twin autocannon. If you have an autocannon you can take a cyclone launcher.
Other than that, I hope these option also bleed over to the Custodes dreadnoughts, they need some love.
Do you think the Dreadnought will have any other optional weapons? What would you include, Plasma Cannon perhaps?
My big hope for this new Contemptor is that it will replace the existing plastic version and include options for a multi melta and assault cannon in the kit. The Contemptor is my favourite dread design and the Calth kit was a huge disappointment. As for other options, twin linked las-cannon would be nice. Especially if the kits arms are FW compatible so you can easily double up on guns or CCW.
Custodes getting more 40k options wouldn't hurt. But the model IMO is to plain for the golden boys(same with the Calth version). They really should have there own bespoke version and not a Legion hand me down.
Togusa wrote: So this new boxset looks interesting, but I have a big question.
Are. The. Rules. Changing?
We don’t even know¹ that the box is real yet, never mind having a sold enough grasp of the content to even tell you it has rules in it.
Based on previous HH boxes, it might come with cardboard and a standalone board game but then board games like Calth don’t play well with tanks so it could be an Indomitus style bunch of sprues and a rule book. Maybe when GW get around to acknowledging these images they’ll tell us.
¹ Strong evidence is not quite surety, though confidence is high.
Seen the pics floating around via Kirioth's channel and have to say even though I jumped into HH and jumped out previously, a return to a RTB001 style set of Beakies would see me jump back into HH so damned fast.
So I hope the pics are indicators of a new set, but my wallet wants it to be a illusion.
Not Online!!! wrote: Boy howdy that is something that i'd like to convert for my cursed....
I do wonder on the pricetag though
Honestly with current plastic GW characters ranging anywhere from $35 up to $65 and up(Guilliman, Abaddon, Ghaz), Forge World's pricing on a lot of their character mini is not that bad.
the problem is not the initial price, but shipping and taxation, because well no EU and Efta was a bit ignored after the UK joined, nvm the taxation for it will most likely double the price without even considering tarifs for me.
SamusDrake wrote: Never had the pleasure of 30K, but curious as to how it fares compared to regular 40K. Any good?
Depends on what you want, but for me, it's definitely more of a setting you play in than than the ongoing unfolding narrative focused 40k. We know how the heresy ends, but you get to carve out your own legends. And it's not all about Power Armour either. You get 18 Legions, Blackshields (Build your own legion kit), 3 flavours of mechanicum, Solar Auxilia, Imperialis Militia (Imperial Guard or renegades and heretics with a huge scope for customisation), Sisters of Silence, Legio Custodes, Knights and finally Dæmons of the Ruinstorm (6 flavours of Dæmons also with a huge scope for customisation). With rites of war, each legion will play very differently to the next and even against same legions. Generally, it's a lot more balanced than 40k, but there are a few powerful builds (Thousand Sons in general and Iron Warriors Ironfire lists are two examples of very strong builds that can crush you if you're not prepared)
Goonhammer has a good article on starting out if you're interested:
SamusDrake wrote: Never had the pleasure of 30K, but curious as to how it fares compared to regular 40K. Any good?
Horus Heresy currently uses a rules system based quite heavily on 7th edition Warhammer 40K. IMO, it's a more nuanced system with mechanics that are better able to represent the various different rules for the 18 original space marine legions. In gamer terms, it's a bit more "crunchy". Vehicles have armor facings(front, side, rear) and hull points rather than wounds. High strength weapons like lascannons often have a chance of killing a vehicle outright if you roll well on the Vehicle Damage chart. Because the game is largely centered around armies of space marine vs space marine, it's a little easier to balance internally because most of the basic troops have the exact same statline. There's nothing like watching a Horus Heresy game in progress with fully painted armies and 20-man tactical squads facing off against each other while also dealing with heavy vehicles like Spartans.
Edit to add: check out "the30kchannel" on Youtube for a variety of really well-done Horus Heresy battle reports.
the problem is not the initial price, but shipping and taxation, because well no EU and Efta was a bit ignored after the UK joined, nvm the taxation for it will most likely double the price without even considering tarifs for me.
Yeah this definitely sucks for you guys in Europe. I've heard that customs fees can be insanely high on things, even if you do hit FW's free shipping threshold.
SamusDrake wrote: Never had the pleasure of 30K, but curious as to how it fares compared to regular 40K. Any good?
You dont have to buy a new codex and relearn entire meta every year that is for sure. In other words you buy an army and you know that you get to play with it in several years time (assuming youve got other players to play with) and this army will still be good on the table. In this period no drastic rules changes will occur.
If anything the only rules changes might be just now.
Thank you all for enlightening me regarding all things 30K.
I dug the idea of the era back in the early 90s - there was a free Armageddon-style game in White Dwarf called Warmaster and we had many hours of fun out of that. Kind of funny when you think about it as it was the Emperor vs Horus in 40K's most legendary moment and it was a magazine freebie! There's a Horus model but still no Emperor. Strange that but I do wonder if that will end up as a one-off board game at some point...
Apparently there was a Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons game a few moons ago. Shame I was late getting back into the hobby because my brother totally loves Space Wolves while I've got the Thousand Sons bug. I think that might have pushed us into the HH thing back then. Wish I had also picked up Silver Tower for its Tzeentch theme, but the power of hindsignt, eh?
SamusDrake wrote: Thank you all for enlightening me regarding all things 30K.
I dug the idea of the era back in the early 90s - there was a free Armageddon-style game in White Dwarf called Warmaster and we had many hours of fun out of that. Kind of funny when you think about it as it was the Emperor vs Horus in 40K's most legendary moment and it was a magazine freebie! There's a Horus model but still no Emperor. Strange that but I do wonder if that will end up as a one-off board game at some point...
Apparently there was a Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons game a few moons ago. Shame I was late getting back into the hobby because my brother totally loves Space Wolves while I've got the Thousand Sons bug. I think that might have pushed us into the HH thing back then. Wish I had also picked up Silver Tower for its Tzeentch theme, but the power of hindsignt, eh?
Warmaster was fun, I liked the Battle for Armageddon Game and Doom of the Eldar that were out around that time which was of a similar vein as well. Also the reason I got the FFG Horus Heresy game which also used a similar format but with a sorta halfway house models.
Heresy has always been an interesting part of the lore to me, I always remember a short they did about Jaghatai's race for the space port way back in the early to mid 90s (I can't recall exactly when) when that finally shows up as a novel in the series I suspect I will be picking up the books I require to get me from Fulgrim (the last one I read) to there.
White Dwarf 161. Classic issue. The story of the siege of earth and the free Warmaster game. Had many happy hours with that! Rogal Dorn was just an imperial general then!
zedmeister wrote: White Dwarf 161. Classic issue. The story of the siege of earth and the free Warmaster game. Had many happy hours with that! Rogal Dorn was just an imperial general then!
Played this so much back in high school. Was really fun for a little game from WD!
Yeah this definitely sucks for you guys in Europe. I've heard that customs fees can be insanely high on things, even if you do hit FW's free shipping threshold.
Gw handles fees. If he had to pay tax error happened somewhere.
tneva82 wrote: Gw handles fees. If he had to pay tax error happened somewhere. Edit: this for eu orders. Not sure outside eu
I think the problem is that, while both the UK and Switzerland have free trade agreements with the EU, they do not have one with each other. So UK goods sent to Switzerland can accrue import duties / tarifs.
EDIT: I was (partially) wrong. The UK does actually have a trade agreement with Switzerland. It's not a no-tariffs agreement, though.
zedmeister wrote: Well, this box set is going to be expensive. Using existing model prices as a guide:
Contemptor - £35
4x MkIV/MkIII - £120
2x Cataphractii - £80
Heros - £30
Most expensive Land Raider (subbing in for a spartan) - £60
Leaving us, at minimum (unlikely), £325 worth of models. Anyone got an idea on how that compares to Indomitus?
Most of those units are priced far at a premium vs when they were part of the box set. Calth was 30 marines, 5 terminators, 2 characters and a contemptor for iirc $150. Adding 5 terminators, a spartan, and 10 more marines
I could see it going for $230 to 250 range
That seems right. Hoping that it won’t sell out in minutes and never return...
zedmeister wrote: Well, this box set is going to be expensive. Using existing model prices as a guide:
Contemptor - £35
4x MkIV/MkIII - £120
2x Cataphractii - £80
Heros - £30
Most expensive Land Raider (subbing in for a spartan) - £60
Leaving us, at minimum (unlikely), £325 worth of models. Anyone got an idea on how that compares to Indomitus?
Most of those units are priced far at a premium vs when they were part of the box set. Calth was 30 marines, 5 terminators, 2 characters and a contemptor for iirc $150. Adding 5 terminators, a spartan, and 10 more marines
I could see it going for $230 to 250 range
That seems right. Hoping that it won’t sell out in minutes and never return...
Given the precedent set by, what, the past 10 boxed sets, that hope shall be entirely in vain.
zedmeister wrote: White Dwarf 161. Classic issue. The story of the siege of earth and the free Warmaster game. Had many happy hours with that! Rogal Dorn was just an imperial general then!
Played this so much back in high school. Was really fun for a little game from WD!
I have really severe doubts that the rules for the HH are going to end up changing - at least I have doubts they will move to the format of 8th and 9th.
As far as we know the HH team can barely put out a book every year or so; it's been a state of shambles since Bligh died and it's clear the FW do not have a great deal of resources. Sweeping the board and starting over would be insane given their lack of even basic resources.
blood reaper wrote: I have really severe doubts that the rules for the HH are going to end up changing - at least I have doubts they will move to the format of 8th and 9th.
As far as we know the HH team can barely put out a book every year or so; it's been a state of shambles since Bligh died and it's clear the FW do not have a great deal of resources. Sweeping the board and starting over would be insane given their lack of even basic resources.
I saw someone point out that there's a scatter die in the front of the leaked image so there's a pretty high chance it's still the same rules.
tneva82 wrote: Gw handles fees. If he had to pay tax error happened somewhere. Edit: this for eu orders. Not sure outside eu
I think the problem is that, while both the UK and Switzerland have free trade agreements with the EU, they do not have one with each other. So UK goods sent to Switzerland can accrue import duties / tarifs.
EDIT: I was (partially) wrong. The UK does actually have a trade agreement with Switzerland. It's not a no-tariffs agreement, though.
Aaaa he's in switzerland. So brexit affected switzeland people as well despite Swiss not being in EU? Fascinating. Had missed that one. Thanks.
Its hardly a "state of shambles". The releases are glacially slow due to lack of resources (and probably this move to mainstream being slowed by covid, these have been in the pipeline for a really long time) but the heresy in general is a far less shambolic affair than 9th ed 40k is.
I can't see them changing the ruleset either. And I don't think they should. A change to the psychic phase and an update to the first few legions is all it really needs. The rumour of dreads being monsterous creatures instead of vehicles also sounds interesting!
blood reaper wrote: I have really severe doubts that the rules for the HH are going to end up changing - at least I have doubts they will move to the format of 8th and 9th.
As far as we know the HH team can barely put out a book every year or so; it's been a state of shambles since Bligh died and it's clear the FW do not have a great deal of resources. Sweeping the board and starting over would be insane given their lack of even basic resources.
I saw someone point out that there's a scatter die in the front of the leaked image so there's a pretty high chance it's still the same rules.
I may be completely missing the mark here (and talking about something else) but I saw on Twitter that wasn't someone trolling and had photoshopped a scatter dice into a photo of miniatures? They released the photo and then just sat back with popcorn to watch the fires burn.*
* I can't remember if it was these minis or something to do with a new Imperial Guard boxset?
The Gaunt's Ghosts boxed set has an image of the new Ork Boyz fighting Cadians on it, someone photoshopped in a scatter dice after the HH image started circulating.
Kanluwen wrote: The Gaunt's Ghosts boxed set has an image of the new Ork Boyz fighting Cadians on it, someone photoshopped in a scatter dice after the HH image started circulating.
zedmeister wrote: Well, this box set is going to be expensive. Using existing model prices as a guide:
Contemptor - £35
4x MkIV/MkIII - £120
2x Cataphractii - £80
Heros - £30
Most expensive Land Raider (subbing in for a spartan) - £60
Leaving us, at minimum (unlikely), £325 worth of models. Anyone got an idea on how that compares to Indomitus?
Most of those units are priced far at a premium vs when they were part of the box set. Calth was 30 marines, 5 terminators, 2 characters and a contemptor for iirc $150. Adding 5 terminators, a spartan, and 10 more marines I could see it going for $230 to 250 range
A Terminator squad, tactical squad and a Spartan represent probably $200 in models at least. Call me skeptical that those will be bundled in at a 50-60% discount.
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blood reaper wrote: I have really severe doubts that the rules for the HH are going to end up changing - at least I have doubts they will move to the format of 8th and 9th.
As far as we know the HH team can barely put out a book every year or so; it's been a state of shambles since Bligh died and it's clear the FW do not have a great deal of resources. Sweeping the board and starting over would be insane given their lack of even basic resources.
Agree that the rules aren’t changing. Which will also continue holding the game back in terms of popularity, but it is what it is.
tneva82 wrote: Gw handles fees. If he had to pay tax error happened somewhere. Edit: this for eu orders. Not sure outside eu
I think the problem is that, while both the UK and Switzerland have free trade agreements with the EU, they do not have one with each other. So UK goods sent to Switzerland can accrue import duties / tarifs.
EDIT: I was (partially) wrong. The UK does actually have a trade agreement with Switzerland. It's not a no-tariffs agreement, though.
Aaaa he's in switzerland. So brexit affected switzeland people as well despite Swiss not being in EU? Fascinating. Had missed that one. Thanks.
All countries that had deals with the EU had/has to negotiate new ones with the UK.
For people in the EU proper, the GW situation is not that bad. GW ships customs free, and Wayland too (but with local VAT which might be more or less than UK VAT depending on where you live, and no free shipping any more so a couple of quid extra).
Well wayland also now charges for shipping fees which all things combined means flgs here beats wayland for price. Why pay more for privilege of waiting longer
Postage costs from UK to Europe are insane at the moment. From looking at this the other day, I can post cheaper to Europe from here in Oz, in some cases for around half the cost.
Agree that the rules aren’t changing. Which will also continue holding the game back in terms of popularity, but it is what it is.
I hope this will be the case too. There has been some really combative, actually quite spiteful, commentary on social media about whether the rules will change over recent days.
There is a core (I would say definitely majority) who absolutely do not want the rules to update, and in fact enjoy the relative stability of the HH rules (being out of the rulebook/codex cycle of 40k). But, there are some pretty loud voices (I would say evangelists) extolling the virtues of 9th, while saying how bad 7th is, and really that the "grognards need to get with the program" and the like. I don't think that kind of dismissive/patronising talk is really helpful at all to be honest.
While I definitely think the current rules have shortcomings, if they are bumped forward to 9th-esque rules where will it end? When 40k 10th comes along in a year or two will the same people be pushing for 'getting with the program' for the new version again? I think you either make 30k a sub-set (almost codex) of 40k and hang off that ruleset, update when that updates, or you just let it do its own thing. The concept will only ever be a niche of 40k in terms of popularity, and I think for anyone that is really 'into' it its not that much work to learn the rules, and you can still have all of the fancy/high price books and miniature releases to cater for those fans.
But that's just my tuppence worth, they may well just completely ignore that rationale!
Speaking of stability today I'll be demoing adeptus titanicus. Thing is haven't been able to play MYSELF since 2019 autumn...damn it is refreshing to play a game where game rules are fairly stable. I had no issues getting back to the game.
I've found that people who want 9th rules tend to be the people who just want to play Legion armies against 40k armies. They don't so much want to play Horus Heresy as play 40k with a different shade of Space Marne army.
By comparison in communities where there was a strong 30k vs 30k community, the desire for the HH ruleset to remain within the sphere of 7th (or at least, not become the simplified 8th ruleset) is much stronger.
There is a core (I would say definitely majority) who absolutely do not want the rules to update, and in fact enjoy the relative stability of the HH rules (being out of the rulebook/codex cycle of 40k). But, there are some pretty loud voices (I would say evangelists) extolling the virtues of 9th, while saying how bad 7th is, and really that the "grognards need to get with the program" and the like. I don't think that kind of dismissive/patronising talk is really helpful at all to be honest.
The problem for GW is that yes, it is probably true that majority of currentHH players don't want to the rules to change, but majority of potential HH players would most likely prefer it to be compatible with the 9th. HH was in its most popular when it was compatible with 40K and there was free movement of players between the games. Keeping the old rules makes it more difficult to attract new players but changing the rules risks alienating the current players. That's quite a pickle.
tneva82 wrote:Well wayland also now charges for shipping fees which all things combined means flgs here beats wayland for price. Why pay more for privilege of waiting longer
I can't find any Swedish store that does even 10 % off and shipping is about £7.50 (closer to £10 for Finland, I believe) so it's still the better deal for us.
lord_blackfang wrote:Yea Wayland charges 26 GBP to my location now no matter the order size.
That's harsh. Only courier shipping available, I guess?
Crimson wrote: The problem for GW is that yes, it is probably true that majority of currentHH players don't want to the rules to change, but majority of potential HH players would most likely prefer it to be compatible with the 9th. HH was in its most popular when it was compatible with 40K and there was free movement of players between the games. Keeping the old rules makes it more difficult to attract new players but changing the rules risks alienating the current players. That's quite a pickle.
Horus heresy was most popular when the major internal driving force behind it was still alive. I don't think it has anything to do with the rules it maintains.
The people who have stuck with it have done so in spite of the fall off in game support and releases and in spite of the laughable prices forge world charges. I feel like stabbing them in the back by going to 9th would be 8th Edition WFB to Age of Sigmar levels of backlash.
Crimson wrote: The problem for GW is that yes, it is probably true that majority of currentHH players don't want to the rules to change, but majority of potential HH players would most likely prefer it to be compatible with the 9th. HH was in its most popular when it was compatible with 40K and there was free movement of players between the games. Keeping the old rules makes it more difficult to attract new players but changing the rules risks alienating the current players. That's quite a pickle.
Horus heresy was most popular when the major internal driving force behind it was still alive. I don't think it has anything to do with the rules it maintains.
The people who have stuck with it have done so in spite of the fall off in game support and releases and in spite of the laughable prices forge world charges. I feel like stabbing them in the back by going to 9th would be 8th Edition WFB to Age of Sigmar levels of backlash.
HH was at it's most popular when 40k was in it's worst ever state. Whilst many people were looking into other games, many still wanted to stick within the GW sphere, AoS was still a game of bashing action figures together, Specialist Games wasn't there yet, so that just left Horus Heresy.
Even if HH had gone over to 8th/9th, the numbers would still have plummeted because most people want/wanted to play 40k, it's just HH was 'close enough' that it made for a good distraction until 40k was improved. Sure you'd have a lot more people playing Legion armies against 40k armies, but that's not 'really' HH.
IT should be it's own rules set. 40K is mainly marine on marine already, but in this setting there is very little Xenos with odd rules to worry about. it can be a simpler and cleaner rule set just because there is so little variation in armies. Yes each army has unique troops, but nothing earth shattering that rewrites whole swaths of army builds. GW can make the base game standard and then have 20 Legion books to pump out before version 2.0 (they won't get near all of them done before that happens though). It's a big financial win for them to have two separate rules as they can sell twice as many rulebooks and codex books.
The people who have stuck with it have done so in spite of the fall off in game support and releases and in spite of the laughable prices forge world charges. I feel like stabbing them in the back by going to 9th would be 8th Edition WFB to Age of Sigmar levels of backlash.
I have my own criticisms about this whole thing, but just want to point out that HH got a new black book last September and had a slow release schedule for the past couple of years but even then we still got a bunch of new Dark Angels miniatures, some praetors, a few tanks(the Aquitor Bombard and the Sabre tanks), and so on. So it's been slow but not nonexistent.
As for laughable Forge World prices..... just take a lot at a lot of the newer GW kits and tell me what you see. The new Mega-gargants are $195. Each. For the price of 1 mega-gargant I can get two Deimos Predator tanks. Or if we're talking plastic HH, roughly 4 tactical squads. Lord Kroak is $115. There are primarchs in the same price range. A Great Unclean One is $140. That's a Sicaran. Or a full 10-man Dark Angels Interemptor squad(at $66 per 5 marines).
Let's not kid ourselves that FW and GW pricing are all that different anymore.
As for laughable Forge World prices..... just take a lot at a lot of the newer GW kits and tell me what you see. The new Mega-gargants are $195. Each. For the price of 1 mega-gargant I can get two Deimos Predator tanks. Or if we're talking plastic HH, roughly 4 tactical squads. Lord Kroak is $115. There are primarchs in the same price range. A Great Unclean One is $140. That's a Sicaran. Or a full 10-man Dark Angels Interemptor squad(at $66 per 5 marines).
Let's not kid ourselves that FW and GW pricing are all that different anymore.
I mean, there's a reason I don't buy much from GW anymore and have recently purchased a 3D printer. Ironically, as my purchasing ability has increased with my age, my ability to stomach their ever increasing prices has dropped.
Regardless, I think my point still stands about people supporting the nicheness of the heresy game. People who bought into it during the heyday of the game, when Bligh was still with us, have seen a drop in support, with increasing gaps between releases. A lot of that could be remedied by better communication, but as I speculated at elsewhere in this thread, GW would rather keep players in the dark for reasons.
TBH as someone that loves 8th and 9th and really started playing 40k (I was a fantasy and MESBG before) with 8th, one of the reasons I want to try HH with this box set is specifically because they have different rules.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't need Warhammer 40k 2.0. If I want to play 9th, I can just play 9th.
Galas wrote: TBH as someone that loves 8th and 9th and really started playing 40k (I was a fantasy and MESBG before) with 8th, one of the reasons I want to try HH with this box set is specifically because they have different rules.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't need Warhammer 40k 2.0. If I want to play 9th, I can just play 9th.
If folks can keep track of various rules when they have armies/miniatures for Age of Sigmar, 40k, Titanicus, Necromunda, and/or Aeronautica, I don't see why 30K suddenly needs to be the same rules system as current 40k. A lot of people play multiple GW games systems and it's never been an issue before.
I meean, it would be nice to have current rules for the stuff FW sells to be able to play 40k with the 40k crowd, but HH itself it's fine with its own system, I think.
MajorWesJanson wrote: When 30k was essentially compatible with 40k, it opened up a much wider playerbase of opponents.
Which doesn't make a ton of sense. None of the 30k armies are designed or balanced to play against factions outside of 30k. If you wanted to play against those factions, why not play 40k?
MajorWesJanson wrote: When 30k was essentially compatible with 40k, it opened up a much wider playerbase of opponents.
Which doesn't make a ton of sense. None of the 30k armies are designed or balanced to play against factions outside of 30k. If you wanted to play against those factions, why not play 40k?
I know that back in 7th edition there was a game hack to get Squats back into the game using various traits for a 30k Imperial army. Then 8th edition 40k came out and killed that little nugget.
HH couldn't cope with a new ruleset edition. Just like Kill Team, the game doesn't get enough support from the devs so its better to keep the core rules more or less static.
MajorWesJanson wrote: When 30k was essentially compatible with 40k, it opened up a much wider playerbase of opponents.
Which doesn't make a ton of sense. None of the 30k armies are designed or balanced to play against factions outside of 30k. If you wanted to play against those factions, why not play 40k?
Because all your potential opponents know how to play 30k if they play 40k. With 8th and 9th, you're no longer guaranteed someone knows how the game works.
Theophony wrote: IT should be it's own rules set. 40K is mainly marine on marine already, but in this setting there is very little Xenos with odd rules to worry about. it can be a simpler and cleaner rule set just because there is so little variation in armies. Yes each army has unique troops, but nothing earth shattering that rewrites whole swaths of army builds. GW can make the base game standard and then have 20 Legion books to pump out before version 2.0 (they won't get near all of them done before that happens though). It's a big financial win for them to have two separate rules as they can sell twice as many rulebooks and codex books.
I know Mechanicus and Solar Aux aren't big but they do exist
And are lovely models.
What about the 2 board games, were they any good rules wise?
MajorWesJanson wrote: When 30k was essentially compatible with 40k, it opened up a much wider playerbase of opponents.
Which doesn't make a ton of sense. None of the 30k armies are designed or balanced to play against factions outside of 30k. If you wanted to play against those factions, why not play 40k?
Because I thought the legion rules, models, and background were cool, and my friends didn't want to invest in HH armies. Balance was hardly GWs strong suite back then either, so what did it matter?
To all the people who propose HH to go 9th - while it might be good for the system in the short term for how long would that be? Codexes can be updated in 1 year time for a 40k army. 10th edition may be out next year even. So who will rebalance HH for 10th edition? HH players and 40k players might be able to play with each other for 1-2 years and then what? I dont see GW updating the HH rules often
40k ruleset for HH might be good for HH in the short term but its a bad decision for the setting in the long run. Speaking as a HH player leave HH with its own ruleset.
Galas wrote: TBH as someone that loves 8th and 9th and really started playing 40k (I was a fantasy and MESBG before) with 8th, one of the reasons I want to try HH with this box set is specifically because they have different rules.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't need Warhammer 40k 2.0. If I want to play 9th, I can just play 9th.
I'm in the same boat. I started with 40k 2 years ago, so in 8th. Never played it before. Got into HH (ZM to be precise), just a month ago, exactly because it has different rules, so I can play scifi warhammer in 2 flavors. And I just don't understand why some people want HH to have the same rules as 40k... you can already play 40k, even with FW models... I really, really hope the 2 systems stay separate. I'm really enjoying the rules of HH. I don't want another 40k. I already have that.
Galas wrote: TBH as someone that loves 8th and 9th and really started playing 40k (I was a fantasy and MESBG before) with 8th, one of the reasons I want to try HH with this box set is specifically because they have different rules.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't need Warhammer 40k 2.0. If I want to play 9th, I can just play 9th.
I'm in the same boat. I started with 40k 2 years ago, so in 8th. Never played it before. Got into HH (ZM to be precise), just a month ago, exactly because it has different rules, so I can play scifi warhammer in 2 flavors. And I just don't understand why some people want HH to have the same rules as 40k... you can already play 40k, even with FW models... I really, really hope the 2 systems stay separate. I'm really enjoying the rules of HH. I don't want another 40k. I already have that.
There is nothing stopping GW from posting unit stats online and updating them on a annual basis. The problem with 30k has always been the very long stretches without rules updates or balance patches, which causes them to nerf certain units into near uselessness while releasing new OP stuff all the time. The rules from 7th themselves are not too bad. They get away from the aura/strategim spam that 8th and later have become. Could they adopt certain things from 8th? Perhaps, but 30k needs it's own feel of massive armies compared to modern 40k's handful of units focus.
Are we pretending Horus Heresy as a core ruleset is in a bad state or something? The only major change I would make to core HH is removal of Look Out Sir and the way casualties are taken.
The army lists are the unbalanced part, newer factions are laughably more powerful than pre-book 7 Legions.
Like in 7th edition 40K, the game was really not bad until they started bloating every codex release and adding overpowered formations to sell derelict kits. That's not directly what happening here, but it is a similar comparison.
Just update the Isstvan-era legions and bring them up to the power level of post book 7 Legions. They recently did this with the Night Lords in book 9. Actually gave them multiple buffs, rites of war, characters, even a new unit (I have reservations against it's poor design, but its still a new unit). They still aren't as powerful as the Dark Angels of Thousands sons but they are definitely improved.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note, FW should hire me , cause I've already rewritten most of the legion rules to attempt balancing them for my group. Hell I'd send them the PDFs for free.
I am/was an avid 30k player who is fortunate enough to live in a country where there is a phenomenal HH community, the kind of superfan that travelled to HH Weekenders, but I still think that moving to 9th is the way to go. It's better for the long-term popularity of the game. The more popular the game, the more releases and better support we get, and the greater the likelihood that the HH will be able to grow in communities where there isn't a preexisting playerbase. Timmy might be willing to buy some HH if he can play it against Bob's Tau, who in turn might be convinced to buy in, etc. It's definitely not about just wanting another flavour of marines for me. I don't think this is an unreasonable stance to take. That the overwhelming majority of the folks who want 30k to stay the same come from strong HH gaming communities speaks volumes.
Mind you, I'd prefer to see 9th adapted as opposed to a direct translation (think e.g. Adeptus Titanicus with its "basic" and then "advanced" and "optional" rules), with elements of the existing HH rulleset being adapted. There are lots of bits I'm not a huge fan of and would like to avoid, although the edition as a whole is still very good.
As it stands though, I do not expect it to go to 9th.
I'd be pleased as a peach if Horus Heresy continues to remain a separate standalone and non-intercompatible ruleset with 40k.
I enjoy the balance and flavor that comes with there *not* being filthy xenos factions all over the place (and I say this as a 40k xenos main) and there being a relatively high degree of homogeneity in statlines, etc. within the game. Even with that homogeneity, the game still manages to provide highly thematic and unique flavor to all the various factions and it never feels like you're playing yet another mirror match.
Making the game cross compatible otherwise just turns Horus Heresy into a massive expansion for 40k Space Marines, and nobody really wins there (except maybe SM players who will get *even more* toys and releases than they already do, something I've seen quite a few of you "merge the rulesets" types whinge about before).
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Are we pretending Horus Heresy as a core ruleset is in a bad state or something? .
It's based on 7th edition, so yes, personally that would constitute a 'bad state'... although not as bad as updating it to 9th.
If they had stuck with the 5th edition rules, I'd be more receptive...
So if there was no overwatch, look out sir, challenges, psychic phase, fortifications, lords of war, and if vehicles returned to exploding on a 6 without needing AP 1/2 all the time the game would be in a good state to you? Cause thats pretty much the general changes from 5th-7th. Nothing wrong with liking an old edition over a new one, but the editions are too similar to really label one as a bad state.
I feel like people just follow the bandwagon hating on 7th and don't seem to admit that the main reason the edition suffered was the implementation of apocalypse style formations with rules upon rules into the basic game. This annoys me because the generalization that 7th was trash all around leads to people hollering for 8th/9th style Horus Heresy.
So if there was no overwatch, look out sir, challenges, psychic phase, fortifications, lords of war, and if vehicles returned to exploding on a 6 without needing AP 1/2 all the time the game would be in a good state to you? Cause thats pretty much the general changes from 5th-7th. Nothing wrong with liking an old edition over a new one, but the editions are too similar to really label one as a bad state.
I feel like people just follow the bandwagon hating on 7th and don't seem to admit that the main reason the edition suffered was the implementation of apocalypse style formations with rules upon rules into the basic game. This annoys me because the generalization that 7th was trash all around leads to people hollering for 8th/9th style Horus Heresy.
5th edition wasn't perfect - specifically the vehicle rules needed tweaking and the rules for wounding units with multiple wounds were not the best, but once 40K moved on, there's no reason FW couldn't have fixed those issues themselves and stuck with a system that was otherwise the best flowing and tightest edition of the game since 3rd edition using the rulebook lists.
I didn't hate 7th ed because all the cool kids were doing it. I realised about halfway through sixth edition that almost all of the changes from 5th edition were to the detriment of my enjoyment of the game. They were either unnecessary changes that made the game less fun, or (like overwatch) they were good ideas that were badly implemented... which made them less fun. And 7th edition just went further down that same road.
Theophony wrote: IT should be it's own rules set. 40K is mainly marine on marine already, but in this setting there is very little Xenos with odd rules to worry about. it can be a simpler and cleaner rule set just because there is so little variation in armies. Yes each army has unique troops, but nothing earth shattering that rewrites whole swaths of army builds. GW can make the base game standard and then have 20 Legion books to pump out before version 2.0 (they won't get near all of them done before that happens though). It's a big financial win for them to have two separate rules as they can sell twice as many rulebooks and codex books.
I know Mechanicus and Solar Aux aren't big but they do exist
And are lovely models.
What about the 2 board games, were they any good rules wise?
Betrayal at Calth is a really fun skirmish game; different mechanics but plays somewhat like Blackstone fortress in a way. It’s a shame that everyone just bought it for the models and never played the game. Also a shame that GW never bothered to expand upon it, as the mechanics had the potential to be a neat skirmish game.
Never got round to playing Burning of Prospero, partly because it uses a completely different rule set, so I can’t just use the learning from B@C. Never understood why GW did that, even the tiles are different formats.
So if there was no overwatch, look out sir, challenges, psychic phase, fortifications, lords of war, and if vehicles returned to exploding on a 6 without needing AP 1/2 all the time the game would be in a good state to you? Cause thats pretty much the general changes from 5th-7th. Nothing wrong with liking an old edition over a new one, but the editions are too similar to really label one as a bad state.
I feel like people just follow the bandwagon hating on 7th and don't seem to admit that the main reason the edition suffered was the implementation of apocalypse style formations with rules upon rules into the basic game. This annoys me because the generalization that 7th was trash all around leads to people hollering for 8th/9th style Horus Heresy.
5th edition wasn't perfect - specifically the vehicle rules needed tweaking and the rules for wounding units with multiple wounds were not the best, but once 40K moved on, there's no reason FW couldn't have fixed those issues themselves and stuck with a system that was otherwise the best flowing and tightest edition of the game since 3rd edition using the rulebook lists.
I didn't hate 7th ed because all the cool kids were doing it. I realised about halfway through sixth edition that almost all of the changes from 5th edition were to the detriment of my enjoyment of the game. They were either unnecessary changes that made the game less fun, or (like overwatch) they were good ideas that were badly implemented... which made them less fun. And 7th edition just went further down that same road.
This is a fair statement, I happened to enjoy 5th-7th relatively equally. Good times all around.
For my part, I intend to buy the starter, paint them as Crimson Fists and then play the battle of the farm with them vs a friend’s orks using the rules “Renegade Scout”.
plessiez wrote: For my part, I intend to buy the starter, paint them as Crimson Fists and then play the battle of the farm with them vs a friend’s orks using the rules “Renegade Scout”.
Good stuff! Bonus points if you're able to secure the Proteus Land Speeder with Mk VI pilots, a Rogue Trader reprint and this piece of terrain:
Glumy wrote: To all the people who propose HH to go 9th - while it might be good for the system in the short term for how long would that be? Codexes can be updated in 1 year time for a 40k army. 10th edition may be out next year even. So who will rebalance HH for 10th edition? HH players and 40k players might be able to play with each other for 1-2 years and then what? I dont see GW updating the HH rules often
40k ruleset for HH might be good for HH in the short term but its a bad decision for the setting in the long run. Speaking as a HH player leave HH with its own ruleset.
I think this is the biggest barrier. You'll be tying a game with a small development team in with the frenzied update and release schedule and codex creep of 40k.
Lots of other GW classic games survive without much support (and in fact prosper when the fan communities get together). why not HH?
1) Keep 7th tweaked ruleset and continue to slowly stagnate as players bleed out slowly and significant barrier to entry with ruleset coming across as a regression to some people (Going back editions)
2) Update/hybridize the ruleset. I think a great ruleset could be made by streamlining, incorporating some elements of 9th (statlines need adjusting IMO, keep templates if they want)
The issue with HH is the initial buy in, some people just don't gel with the ruleset when coming from 9th and sadly some elements of gatekeeping (But I am not approaching that subject with a barge pole here, no community is without that issue)
plessiez wrote: For my part, I intend to buy the starter, paint them as Crimson Fists and then play the battle of the farm with them vs a friend’s orks using the rules “Renegade Scout”.
Good stuff! Bonus points if you're able to secure the Proteus Land Speeder with Mk VI pilots, a Rogue Trader reprint and this piece of terrain:
I dont recall that mission needing a Land Speeder? It was just the RTB01 beakies vs the metal Ork box IIRC
I must admit I have a ton of Heresy stuff but have only ever played 1 game of 30K.
It was huge in my club and had more players than 40K at one point.
I just took so long painting up an army that I missed it and then 9th came out and now HH games are less common.
I have played 40K since Rogue Trader so using 7th edition rules isn't an issue for me but it is hard now to remember 2 different rules sets, so I can see why some would prefer an update to 9th.
Personally, I don't think 9th edition actually fits HH very well and I would also be unhappy if I had to replace the books as they weren't cheap.
I just wonder though if GW are aware of both sides of the argument and this will be a full refresh though?
Rumours are this isn't a Horus Heresy starter but instead a Siege of Terra starter.
So this could be a new game, although the images suggest it isn't using 9th edition rules due to the scatter die pictured.
I think after the death of Alan Bligh GW really didn't know what to do with HH. Alan was so heavily involved with it from the start that I think it knocked them for six when he sadly died.
I hope they don't make huge changes but I also concede that if they are doing this in plastic they need to appeal to a newer audience. Although Heresy players never seemed to shy away from sinking a lot of cash into the game.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'd be pleased as a peach if Horus Heresy continues to remain a separate standalone and non-intercompatible ruleset with 40k.
I enjoy the balance and flavor that comes with there *not* being filthy xenos factions all over the place (and I say this as a 40k xenos main) and there being a relatively high degree of homogeneity in statlines, etc. within the game. Even with that homogeneity, the game still manages to provide highly thematic and unique flavor to all the various factions and it never feels like you're playing yet another mirror match.
Making the game cross compatible otherwise just turns Horus Heresy into a massive expansion for 40k Space Marines, and nobody really wins there (except maybe SM players who will get *even more* toys and releases than they already do, something I've seen quite a few of you "merge the rulesets" types whinge about before).
This is basically how I feel about it, as well. Horus Heresy being compatible with current 40k essentially turns it into "Warhammer 40K but 10,000 years earlier" and I don't know if GW wants to go that route. Sure I guess it would be fine if folks could play their xenos armies, but.... you can already play xenos armies against space marines. In the current edition of Warhammer 40k. Do you really need a "Horus Heresy" label on your rules so that you can do that in a different game system as well? Because at that point it's not even a different system anymore if we're talking compatibility. You might as well have GW do an Index with Legion rules as a supplement to actual 40k.
1) Keep 7th tweaked ruleset and continue to slowly stagnate as players bleed out slowly and significant barrier to entry with ruleset coming across as a regression to some people (Going back editions)
Who's to say that the game will stagnate and bleed players? Right now THE biggest barrier to entry into 30K is the lack of easily available starter sets and plastic minis. Almost everything plastic that's distinctly labeled "Horus Heresy" is GW Direct Order only, and there aren't any starter or Start Collecting or Combat Patrol boxes.
Not that the game couldn't use some sort of "gamer edition" book that maybe combined legion rules(maybe without legion-specific Rites of War) and the Age of Darkness: Army List. But I think that more readily available plastics will be a huge boon to the game.
There's also the big question of who exactly would be updating the game to a 9th ed ruleset if such a thing were to happen. The current design team isn't exactly huge, and any sort of transition to those rules would have had to start years ago at this point. I don't expect that GW would also toss that work on the shoulders of the existing 40K rules team - they're already busy working on 40k codexes and supplements as it is.
If there's a core set or some kind of release of a boxed set with the contents that are in these supposed leaks, I would be much more likely to buy into Horus Heresy.
If GW went up on Monday and posted that the leaks were true and the rules weren't changing from the red books, I'd order the red books from FW the same day.
Availability of plastic vehicles is the principle driving force for me. I've worked with FW resin vehicles many times and I've never found it as easy or quick as a plastic model.
StraightSilver wrote: I must admit I have a ton of Heresy stuff but have only ever played 1 game of 30K.
It was huge in my club and had more players than 40K at one point.
I just took so long painting up an army that I missed it and then 9th came out and now HH games are less common.
This is an interesting point about HH gaming. Unless you have a very close knit club or group it's always going to be too niche to be there as a PUG (I would say this is the case for 90% of games - 40k and AoS, perhaps Blood Bowl, probably excluded).
But, it has a very, very dedicated fan community. These are people (and I have been one of them!) that dictate most if not all of their hobby time to 30k, and most of their disposable income too, as it don't come cheap.
30k events used to be a big thing and I can see why as you have lots of other dedicated hobbyists, who have also probably spent thousands of £ on their army, spent hundreds of hours building, painting and converting it and they can come together and play against like minded hobbyists. I know you get this with most games, but the monetary cost of HH (and the fact that you have to be into 40k to even know about it) seems to reinforce it.
Anecdotally, my 30k play (and this is going back a fair bit, before the FW releases when everything was DIY conversions) was at events with others from dedicated forums and fan communities. We had guys writing up fluff for the narrative (even Graham McNeil writing some background for one of them!) It was that focussed and you had some of the most themed games that I have ever been lucky enough to be involved with, with campaigns of the Great Crusade and things like that. On one occasion following I took my stuff to play 40k at a local club the following week (all 'counts as' in those days as no FW books), and played some guys Marine army which was about 6 or 7 different colour schemes (I guess where he had got bored after starting on each one). One assault marine was literally a pair of legs glued to a base. Halfway through a game one of the old metal dreadnoughts with no arms (are you getting the theme here?) fell off some terrain - you could see it wasn't going to be able to balance - and rolled into my assault squad. A squad that had taken me probably a couple of dozen hours to complete converting, I'd had to drill holes into the armour and fill with modelling railway rivets to represent mk5 armour. They were smashed to bits by the dreadnought. "Oh sorry mate!" He picks up the dreadnought and carries on rolling dice...
So I don't think most serious HH players and collectors are bothered about having a homogenous ruleset that links with 9th and means he can play Dave's Ork army every Thursday down at the club. They want to be able to keep hold of their lovely, super expensive books and not have to change them every 2 years. Or have to add new miniatures to a squad that has already cost over £100 because a 'rites of war' has changed. They want stability, and to play against other people that have invested a similar amount of time, money and care in their HH force.
I think this is why you have had such a strong, emotive backlash to the suggestions of a new 9th-edition esque ruleset for the game.
I have to say I don't understand this talk about "going back to old editions"
7th does not exist anymore. Warhammer 40k is Warhammer 40k. With his own ruleset.
Horus Heresy has is own ruleset too, and any new player for both HH or W40K doesnt need, and probably doesnt care about the difference.
Necromunda is also heavely based in Warhammer 2nd edition. Does anybody say that thats a problem? (Necromunda rules have a ton of problems but thats not one of them) Or talks about how using an old w40k edition as his base is a problem for new players?
The reason HH won't be more popular is because GW basically dropped support for it. Theres nothing inherently flawed about the game or setting. Just like it wasnt with Adeptus Titanicus, Aeronautica Imperialis, BloodBowl, Necromunda, Underworlds, or Fantasy with the Old World.
plessiez wrote: For my part, I intend to buy the starter, paint them as Crimson Fists and then play the battle of the farm with them vs a friend’s orks using the rules “Renegade Scout”.
1) Keep 7th tweaked ruleset and continue to slowly stagnate as players bleed out slowly and significant barrier to entry with ruleset coming across as a regression to some people (Going back editions)
2) Update/hybridize the ruleset. I think a great ruleset could be made by streamlining, incorporating some elements of 9th (statlines need adjusting IMO, keep templates if they want)
The issue with HH is the initial buy in, some people just don't gel with the ruleset when coming from 9th and sadly some elements of gatekeeping (But I am not approaching that subject with a barge pole here, no community is without that issue)
Your "options" are written in a heavily slanted manner, to present your favored option as the only true option.
Changing the Ruleset would hurt the game more than keeping the rules stable.
Learning a ruleset once, and not having to re-learn every few years is a boon.
I enjoy the fact that I can still play Warmaster, Epic, or many rulesets in the historical realm, without having to re-learn, or figure out what version people are using.
If you "bring forward" the rules, the series of campaign books would then have to be revised, which is exactly the type of thing that will bleed off players and create a barrier to entry.
"Which version of the $125 Massacre book do I need?", "there's 2 editions of the red rulesbook?"
Teaching new players the rules for Horus Heresy is learning a new game, not regressing.
I do not believe the HH rules reference that they are a version of the core 40k rules.
IMO, none of 40k's later editions have been true evolutions either, they simply change sections of the rules arbitrarily, improving some aspects, and creating new problems in other areas.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: What about the 2 board games, were they any good rules wise?
Betrayal at Calth is a really fun skirmish game; different mechanics but plays somewhat like Blackstone fortress in a way. It’s a shame that everyone just bought it for the models and never played the game. Also a shame that GW never bothered to expand upon it, as the mechanics had the potential to be a neat skirmish game.
Never got round to playing Burning of Prospero, partly because it uses a completely different rule set, so I can’t just use the learning from B@C. Never understood why GW did that, even the tiles are different formats.
Calth was an excellent 40k game, sorta more 40k than 40k as it were. The weapons made sense in the background (bolters had an important role in suppressing enemy marines and removing freedom of action for example) and didn't feel as sueless as they can do in 40k when unbuffed. I don't know if it was because it was a different stand alone design team, or if they felt the game couldn't be expanded, or simply the writer had a different bunch of really great ideas, but its very different. Also sadly not as good. A lot of it is about emphasising amazing stuff over the regular units and uses the old different sided dice, same target number mechanic of some boardgames to do so.
Calth also got the extra mission treatment for whatever reason, whilst Prospero was a one off.
Being the guy who actually plays mostly 30k (and also Necromunda - another great game with its own ruleset) i want the game to have its own rules.
Horus Heresy was in bad shape in the past few years mostly because it didnt have any starter set. Now it will and after the set release we will see how much HH will raise in popularity. I dont expect masses but i do expect some new people to play it.
Its general consensus in the 40k community that 7th was mostly bad because of formations and codexes. 7th edition rules that HH use need a revamp (yes, they do) but they dont need a revolution.
I am not entirely convinced people dont play HH because it uses different rules. I just dont see it as the main reason. People play many different systems and they dont go around saying "i wish it had rules of current 40k".
Lets be clear - for most people 40k have more races, more everything and it just might be better for them. Why would they limit themselves? Playing HH is like playing World of Warcraft Classic instead of the most recent expansion. Its just not for everyone.
Horus Heresy was in bad shape in the past few years mostly because it didnt have any starter set. Now it will and after the set release we will see how much HH will raise in popularity. I dont expect masses but i do expect some new people to play it.
I mean I had no intention of ever playing HH but I'll try out with my friends with this new box (unless it costs something like 300€) so I believe it worked.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: It’s worrying to see just how many HH kits are out of production, some of the primarchs and characters are gone now.
This is an ongoing issue with both the website having all kinds of errors, as well probably a repackaging thing. Leakycheese on Youtube noticed a few months ago that a lot of new HH kits had a new product code - code 30 - and that this included some kits that disappeared for a while and then came back(with new product code). A lot of people have also emailed FW and asked directly, and were told that things are being repackaged.
It is NOT a sign that these kits will be gone forever. Don't panic.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: It’s worrying to see just how many HH kits are out of production, some of the primarchs and characters are gone now.
This is an ongoing issue with both the website having all kinds of errors, as well probably a repackaging thing. Leakycheese on Youtube noticed a few months ago that a lot of new HH kits had a new product code - code 30 - and that this included some kits that disappeared for a while and then came back(with new product code). A lot of people have also emailed FW and asked directly, and were told that things are being repackaged.
It is NOT a sign that these kits will be gone forever. Don't panic.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: It’s worrying to see just how many HH kits are out of production, some of the primarchs and characters are gone now.
This is an ongoing issue with both the website having all kinds of errors, as well probably a repackaging thing. Leakycheese on Youtube noticed a few months ago that a lot of new HH kits had a new product code - code 30 - and that this included some kits that disappeared for a while and then came back(with new product code). A lot of people have also emailed FW and asked directly, and were told that things are being repackaged.
It is NOT a sign that these kits will be gone forever. Don't panic.
Horus Heresy was in bad shape in the past few years mostly because it didnt have any starter set. Now it will and after the set release we will see how much HH will raise in popularity. I dont expect masses but i do expect some new people to play it.
Its general consensus in the 40k community that 7th was mostly bad because of formations and codexes. 7th edition rules that HH use need a revamp (yes, they do) but they dont need a revolution.
There's a lot going on beyond the lack of a starter set. The fact is that many people left HH behind after 8th edition 40K dropped. Formations and such may have broken 7th from a competitive standpoint, but since 8th 40K has been more popular than it's ever been at all levels of gaming. The two systems draw from a lot of the same player pool, and people only have so much time and money. Then you throw in very high prices, lack of kits in stores, resin, the eternities between releases, lack of local scenes, etc...it adds up. And since some of those issues aren't going away, I'm skeptical that a starter set -- especially if it's more like a boxed game with a bunch of HH miniatures -- is going to really change much.
And since some of those issues aren't going away, I'm skeptical that a starter set -- especially if it's more like a boxed game with a bunch of HH miniatures -- is going to really change much.
Going solely by the leaked images, which feature a bunch of what look like plastic Horus Heresy miniatures posed on a regular playing surface rather than any sort of board tiles, this new whatever-it-is is not a boxed game like Calth and Prospero were. Just guessing here, but if GW were to try and immediately kickstart a bigger HH playerbase, a box set like this would do it. It would be an expensive set, but that's a full starter army right there. Leave out the Spartan when building your list, and you have a great Zone Mortalis force as well.
These new minis, along with anything else that may be coming, will go a long way toward relieving the "lack of kits in stores" and possibly even the "high prices" bit. And I say again: we've seen a LOT of new plastic kits from GW recently for both Age of Sigmar and 40k that aren't exactly cheap. While nobody likes high prices, I think the "Oh, collecting a 30k army is so expensive" argument may be coming to a close, and there's every possibility that soon you'll be able to put together a legion for roughly the same price as a regular 40k army.
Horus Heresy was in bad shape in the past few years mostly because it didnt have any starter set. Now it will and after the set release we will see how much HH will raise in popularity. I dont expect masses but i do expect some new people to play it.
Its general consensus in the 40k community that 7th was mostly bad because of formations and codexes. 7th edition rules that HH use need a revamp (yes, they do) but they dont need a revolution.
There's a lot going on beyond the lack of a starter set. The fact is that many people left HH behind after 8th edition 40K dropped. Formations and such may have broken 7th from a competitive standpoint, but since 8th 40K has been more popular than it's ever been at all levels of gaming. The two systems draw from a lot of the same player pool, and people only have so much time and money. Then you throw in very high prices, lack of kits in stores, resin, the eternities between releases, lack of local scenes, etc...it adds up. And since some of those issues aren't going away, I'm skeptical that a starter set -- especially if it's more like a boxed game with a bunch of HH miniatures -- is going to really change much.
And while 8th got rid of some nice gaming elements from previous editions, some of the changes cleaned up the rules and made for a lot better design space, like damage and movement stats and arguably going to save modifiers in place of AP.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm genuinely curious if they do a Heresy push if they'll try to hit everything. Mechanicum, Army, Solar Auxilia, etc.
If anything it'd be nice to see some the 40k admech stuff get 30k conversion kits. There are so many great plastic kits now that would look fairly at home in 30k.
And since some of those issues aren't going away, I'm skeptical that a starter set -- especially if it's more like a boxed game with a bunch of HH miniatures -- is going to really change much.
Going solely by the leaked images, which feature a bunch of what look like plastic Horus Heresy miniatures posed on a regular playing surface rather than any sort of board tiles, this new whatever-it-is is not a boxed game like Calth and Prospero were. Just guessing here, but if GW were to try and immediately kickstart a bigger HH playerbase, a box set like this would do it. It would be an expensive set, but that's a full starter army right there. Leave out the Spartan when building your list, and you have a great Zone Mortalis force as well.
These new minis, along with anything else that may be coming, will go a long way toward relieving the "lack of kits in stores" and possibly even the "high prices" bit. And I say again: we've seen a LOT of new plastic kits from GW recently for both Age of Sigmar and 40k that aren't exactly cheap. While nobody likes high prices, I think the "Oh, collecting a 30k army is so expensive" argument may be coming to a close, and there's every possibility that soon you'll be able to put together a legion for roughly the same price as a regular 40k army.
Maybe a plastic Spartan helps some. But they've had Contemptor Dreads and 30K Tacticals available in plastic since the Calth box, and those didn't lead to a lasting larger player base. And those items lead to a very, very basic kind of 30K force. A WE player might be happy with a load of Tacs in Spartans, but most players of other legions will almost certainly want more flavorful (and effective) units, and that tends to be when the FW sticker shock kicks in.
I guess if you think this is just the start of a big wave of 30K plastics, then maybe that moves the needle more. I'm pretty skeptical about that, but only time will tell. I'm just not seeing 30K turn into a 'third core game' while 40K and AoS are so successful and popular. I don't think it's an accident that HH had its highest level of general interest when those systems seemed to be circling the drain. It's much more likely HH retains a sporadic, SG-level of support, IMO. But who knows, I could be very wrong. *shrug*
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MajorWesJanson wrote: And while 8th got rid of some nice gaming elements from previous editions, some of the changes cleaned up the rules and made for a lot better design space, like damage and movement stats and arguably going to save modifiers in place of AP.
Personally, I think HH should adopt some the best elements of 8th at the very least. But they don't have the resources to make that happen (another reason I don't see a HH renaissance on the horizon...the big push gets resources), so the game is stuck with the most bloated core rules 40K ever had (and very infrequent army list and FAQ updates). I don't find 7th to be very well aligned with 30K's narrative flow toward massed battles. Give me speed and simplicity in that instance, not vehicle fiddliness and challenges and pages of similar but slightly different special rules and unit types. But obviously others feel very differently, and that's their right.
Maybe a plastic Spartan helps some. But they've had Contemptor Dreads and 30K Tacticals available in plastic since the Calth box, and those didn't lead to a lasting larger player base. And those items lead to a very, very basic kind of 30K force. A WE player might be happy with a load of Tacs in Spartans, but most players of other legions will almost certainly want more flavorful (and effective) units, and that tends to be when the FW sticker shock kicks in.
Well maybe I'm playing 30k wrong then, because my legion has probably close to 90 tactical marines and I don't play World Eaters...
Also, a lot of the HH plastics are GW Direct only, which is exactly the problem. In addition to being hard to get from anywhere other than GW itself(so no independent game stores), they're also not available at a discount anywhere. Right now I can't easily get someone else into the game without having to tell them that a lot of their basic troops are only available via online order from Games Workshop. Almost anything else for 40K and AoS you can find at some kind of discount online, which immediately means savings.
I got a a display case and some White scars Horus Heresy minis. I thought that small PRide of the Legion/Chorgorian bortherhood would look pretty cool in the display case.
I need a box of Mkiv to turn my bikes into mk4 bikers and i could not at all find them.
Maybe a plastic Spartan helps some. But they've had Contemptor Dreads and 30K Tacticals available in plastic since the Calth box, and those didn't lead to a lasting larger player base. And those items lead to a very, very basic kind of 30K force. A WE player might be happy with a load of Tacs in Spartans, but most players of other legions will almost certainly want more flavorful (and effective) units, and that tends to be when the FW sticker shock kicks in.
Well maybe I'm playing 30k wrong then, because my legion has probably close to 90 tactical marines and I don't play World Eaters...
Also, a lot of the HH plastics are GW Direct only, which is exactly the problem. In addition to being hard to get from anywhere other than GW itself(so no independent game stores), they're also not available at a discount anywhere. Right now I can't easily get someone else into the game without having to tell them that a lot of their basic troops are only available via online order from Games Workshop. Almost anything else for 40K and AoS you can find at some kind of discount online, which immediately means savings.
All they have in plastic is tactical squads in Mk III and Mk IV, Terminators in Tartaros and Cataphractii, one set of HQ, and a monopose contemptor. Mk VI is nice, but is a third tactical squad box. The Spartan helps, but what really needs done is a plastic Deimos hull rhino.
Maybe a plastic Spartan helps some. But they've had Contemptor Dreads and 30K Tacticals available in plastic since the Calth box, and those didn't lead to a lasting larger player base. And those items lead to a very, very basic kind of 30K force. A WE player might be happy with a load of Tacs in Spartans, but most players of other legions will almost certainly want more flavorful (and effective) units, and that tends to be when the FW sticker shock kicks in.
Well maybe I'm playing 30k wrong then, because my legion has probably close to 90 tactical marines and I don't play World Eaters...
Also, a lot of the HH plastics are GW Direct only, which is exactly the problem. In addition to being hard to get from anywhere other than GW itself(so no independent game stores), they're also not available at a discount anywhere. Right now I can't easily get someone else into the game without having to tell them that a lot of their basic troops are only available via online order from Games Workshop. Almost anything else for 40K and AoS you can find at some kind of discount online, which immediately means savings.
All they have in plastic is tactical squads in Mk III and Mk IV, Terminators in Tartaros and Cataphractii, one set of HQ, and a monopose contemptor. Mk VI is nice, but is a third tactical squad box. The Spartan helps, but what really needs done is a plastic Deimos hull rhino.
Mars Pattern Rhinos and Predators, Vindicators, Land Speeders, as well as the standard plastic Land Raider were all available during the Heresy. Deimos chassis would be cool, and I'm hoping, but there certainly are current plastic kits right now in the space marine range that work for 30K. (My point about 30k-era tactical marines and specifically labeled "Horus Heresy" kits still stands though, because most of those ARE "Direct Only".)
A plastic Spartan would sell really well, if that's we're seeing in these pics, and I'm certain that plastic Deimos Rhinos and Predators would sell really well too.
-Demios Rhino/Command Rhino kit
-Rhino/Predator/Vindicator/Whirlwind combo kit all based off the Demios
-MKII kit
-MKV kit
-Jetbike kit
-Bike kit
-Proteus Land Raider kit
-Cerberus/Typhon kit based off plastic spartan
-MKII Assault Squad
-MKIV Assault Squad
-Centurion/Praetor kit like the good old SM Captain kit
Unlikely wishes:
-Rescale MKIII and MIV
-Heresy era MKVII Aquila kit
-Legion specific plastic units (revisit old Isstvan era kits)
If GW support HH like other specialist games I think legion specific units in plastic are quite likely. Just look at the amount of faction specific plastics skirmish games like Necromunda and Warcry have received. Granted Heresy is something of a different beast due to having vehicles that would need bigger kits. But it also has its major factions share most of the core units. Legion specific kits in the same vein as the SM Sternguard, that make a unit but also come jam packed with extras that can be added to the base range would be at the top of my wishlist.
gorgon wrote: There's a lot going on beyond the lack of a starter set. The fact is that many people left HH behind after 8th edition 40K dropped. Formations and such may have broken 7th from a competitive standpoint, but since 8th 40K has been more popular than it's ever been at all levels of gaming. The two systems draw from a lot of the same player pool, and people only have so much time and money. Then you throw in very high prices, lack of kits in stores, resin, the eternities between releases, lack of local scenes, etc...it adds up. And since some of those issues aren't going away, I'm skeptical that a starter set -- especially if it's more like a boxed game with a bunch of HH miniatures -- is going to really change much.
We all know this but wherever you want to recruit someone it goes like this:
Recruit: Ok so where do i start?
Me: So you buy several boxes of MK3 Tacticals. You could use some Cataphractii Terminators. All of this will cost...
Recruit: Isnt there like 1 box similar to Indomitus or at least Start Collecting?
Me: Nope.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm genuinely curious if they do a Heresy push if they'll try to hit everything. Mechanicum, Army, Solar Auxilia, etc.
In the long-term if HH has a large, sustainable uptick of popularity than maybe. The issue is that HH is like GW's perfect game - a Loyalist Marine vs Visually Loyalist Marine game with more expensive prices than 40k, where they barely have to pay any attention to NPC Factions (especially not stinky Xenos, uw!).
Solar Auxilia are very rare. Mechanicum aren't super rare, but you're still looking at 5/100 players at an event. Militia literally have no dedicated models but are a converters/3rd party player's dream, however how long GW would let them get away with being such is up for debate. I think it's more likely we see plastic Army Regulars before plastic SA/Mechanicum since they're the only non-Xenos army that's missing from the game and with SA already being eyewatering at £80 for 100pts of infantry, Army would almost certainly have to come in plastic.
Crazyterran wrote: Just wait for the Primaris release to represent the super secret testing Cawl did!
That would be late in the Scouring at the very earliest - although we could see some of Erda's prototypes.
Kanluwen wrote: Solar Auxilia are very rare. Mechanicum aren't super rare, but you're still looking at 5/100 players at an event. Militia literally have no dedicated models
Locally we've got no Solar Auxilia / Army / Militia players, but do have a few Knight players. I've got Iron Hands, Blackshields & Mechanicum.
GoatboyBeta wrote: If GW support HH like other specialist games I think legion specific units in plastic are quite likely. Just look at the amount of faction specific plastics skirmish games like Necromunda and Warcry have received. Granted Heresy is something of a different beast due to having vehicles that would need bigger kits. But it also has its major factions share most of the core units. Legion specific kits in the same vein as the SM Sternguard, that make a unit but also come jam packed with extras that can be added to the base range would be at the top of my wishlist.
I don’t think plastic legion specific units is all that likely unless they completely stop their resin models. There are 18 legions, each with 2-4 odd specific units. That’s a lot of plastic.
GoatboyBeta wrote: If GW support HH like other specialist games I think legion specific units in plastic are quite likely. Just look at the amount of faction specific plastics skirmish games like Necromunda and Warcry have received. Granted Heresy is something of a different beast due to having vehicles that would need bigger kits. But it also has its major factions share most of the core units. Legion specific kits in the same vein as the SM Sternguard, that make a unit but also come jam packed with extras that can be added to the base range would be at the top of my wishlist.
I don’t think plastic legion specific units is all that likely unless they completely stop their resin models. There are 18 legions, each with 2-4 odd specific units. That’s a lot of plastic.
It wouldn't take much though to do the shoulder pads and accessories though. Just from what I've seen on Thingiverse and other sites they have plenty of files that could make tons of the exotic weapons, pads, helmets to upgrade certain units. There are already unit upgrade sprues for 40K chapters and most would only need this sort of treatment with older Mark armors. THen FW could continue to do special characters in resin which would free up their production schedules.
Yeah I agree. There's nothing more I'd love than to see them transition things to plastic (particularly as some Legion specific units are quite dated and tiny even before you factor in the inevitable MkVI upscaling), but I can't see that happening.
I'm with ImAGeek here. I just can't see GW adding (minimum) 36 new SKUs to their catalogue of just Legion-specific HH kits. Upgrade sets, sure, but even that could pose a problem if they want to have Legion upgrades for each Mark of PA.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm with ImAGeek here. I just can't see GW adding (minimum) 36 new SKUs to their catalogue of just Legion-specific HH kits. Upgrade sets, sure, but even that could pose a problem if they want to have Legion upgrades for each Mark of PA.
Could be something a little less drastic, like one upgrade sprue per legion with a mix of parts similar to when the Primaris non-Codex chapters rolled out. Not as exciting, but possibly more manageable. I don't know what to expect because that's exactly the thing you used to look to Forgeworld for more than whole models but who knows what their future holds. If this was 2005 I would have expected a plastic kit for each armor mark and a resin set for each Legion, and doors!
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm with ImAGeek here. I just can't see GW adding (minimum) 36 new SKUs to their catalogue of just Legion-specific HH kits. Upgrade sets, sure, but even that could pose a problem if they want to have Legion upgrades for each Mark of PA.
Could be something a little less drastic, like one upgrade sprue per legion with a mix of parts similar to when the Primaris non-Codex chapters rolled out. Not as exciting, but possibly more manageable. I don't know what to expect because that's exactly the thing you used to look to Forgeworld for more than whole models but who knows what their future holds. If this was 2005 I would have expected a plastic kit for each armor mark and a resin set for each Legion, and doors!
In an ideal world the Heresy would have a full plastic range. In a more realistic world, I think what would be manageable for GW/FW would be split up the production of units.
Have GW produce the basic "Core" units and give FW the upgrades kits/special units.
From GW we'd get...
Stock power Armour kits Mks II thru VI Terminator Armour (Cataphractii, Tartaros)
Tank Hulls. (Deimos, Spartan Maybe even Sicaran)
Dreadnoughts (Contemptor, Leviathan)
Jetbikes.
That's 14 Heresy-centric SKUs. 7 of which are already in existence. (Also doesn't include kits like the Landraider which is cross-compatible.)
As for the kits themselves...
-The MkII/V/VI would be just standard tac squad style kits. No issues there.
-The two terminator kits are largely fine as they currently are. Only thing they could add is another sprue for each with more of the weapon options for both. Powerswords/chainaxes/Combi-weapons/etc.
-The Deimos hull would cover you for Rhinos, all makes of Predator, Whirlwind, Vindicators and Damocles. A Demios kit could give you the option to make a rhino and predator w/autocannons. You want something else, kit-bash from the 40k tanks or buy the appropriate upgrade kit from FW.
-A Sicaran hull could run much along the same lines. Kit makes a standard Sicaran Battle Tank and maybe one of the anti-tank variants, the Omega for example. You want the Arcus, Punisher or Venator, go to FW for it.
-The Dreadnoughts could both be similar kits. Have 'X' amount of sprues for the main body/bits. And 'X' amount of sprues for the weapons. That way you've got all your options available. The current plastic contemptor is two sprues, from memory, but is push fit with only 3 weapons. A full/semi multipose kit with one of each weapon option would probably blow it out to 4 sprues. I'd have to imagine a similar kit for the Levi you'd be looking at least 5 of the big sprues.
-Jetbikes would be a real winner here I think. Pack of 3 with all the weapon options. Maybe a choice of armour Mk for the rider if they're feeling generous.
Shoot across to FW and you'd get...
-Legion specific tactical upgrade/veteran kits.
-Legion specific units. (Sekmet, Siege Tyrants, Interemptors, Pryroclasts, Golden Kesig, etc.)
-Specialist/uncommon tank varieties for the Demimos, Landraider, Sicaran, etc.
-Other less usual tanks. (Proteus, Sabre, Aquitor, etc.)
-Super Heavy tanks/Aircraft.
-Legion specific Dreadnought hulls. GW sells you the plastic version, FW sells you the fancy resin one.
I only included the Spartan because we already know (assume) it's coming. Otherwise yeah, that seems more logical to have it as a FW thing as (to my knowledge) it's not as commonly used as Landraiders and has less versatility then a Sicaran.
A generic plastic Praetor/Centurion kit would also be really needed. Make it something like this, but then give us options for some/all of the consul choices.
I dont expect them to release legion specific upgrade packs. Maybe for some more popular legions. SoH and IF obviously because theyre being promoted. Perhaps several more popular choices like BA, Ultras, DG, etc.
Crazyterran wrote: Just wait for the Primaris release to represent the super secret testing Cawl did!
.. And this is why HH players want a separation with their game
At the moment the Crusade/Heresy-era stuff is nicely isolated from any of the modern release nonsense of 40k; of GI Joe Super Team + Marines, Primarchs returning from the dead or new Tonka Toy STC template vehicles and wargear etc.
I could see this actually being a cross-marketing push by GW: the ancient tech is still available in very limited quantities to current SM chapters...as are the original marines. If they adjust the scale a little (big fan of larger marines...my eyes are approaching 50) then the newer players who favor Primaris may look at them for options.
Make the HH 7th Rulebook available in this box to remove the usual barriers of entry, add dice...I mean just "Pelenor Fields" the box set. Buy one and get playing immediately.
Make a single book with just the rules for all the units from the HH books as a companion and take up the plastics ideas from above per Snrub and you hit the HH crowd, the Nostalgia crowd and the new players wanting to add some spice to their modern forces.
The main army to have to work with would be the Mechanicum, as I am not aware of the current Codex offering any of the cool gadgets from the past. Maybe that could be in the "All the Forces" book? Just spitballing here.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm with ImAGeek here. I just can't see GW adding (minimum) 36 new SKUs to their catalogue of just Legion-specific HH kits. Upgrade sets, sure, but even that could pose a problem if they want to have Legion upgrades for each Mark of PA.
Yeah, I have a very hard time believing that we're going to see a massive expansion of HH plastics...especially anything that's 30K-specific. I can believe selected core/generic type kits like Tacticals and Spartans. I can believe selected kits that crossover especially well...like maybe a Telemon for example, since 40K Custodes have to borrow from 30K to fill out their very limited range. But Legion-specific units will almost certainly stay in resin. If HH was about to move into 'core game' level of support, it'd have more than one dude doing the writing. This feels like GW just bumping up some support to bring HH alongside the other SG lines.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm with ImAGeek here. I just can't see GW adding (minimum) 36 new SKUs to their catalogue of just Legion-specific HH kits. Upgrade sets, sure, but even that could pose a problem if they want to have Legion upgrades for each Mark of PA.
Yeah, I have a very hard time believing that we're going to see a massive expansion of HH plastics...especially anything that's 30K-specific. I can believe selected core/generic type kits like Tacticals and Spartans. I can believe selected kits that crossover especially well...like maybe a Telemon for example, since 40K Custodes have to borrow from 30K to fill out their very limited range. But Legion-specific units will almost certainly stay in resin. If HH was about to move into 'core game' level of support, it'd have more than one dude doing the writing. This feels like GW just bumping up some support to bring HH alongside the other SG lines.
From what I've heard there are now a few other people working on the game as well. And a lot of what may be coming this year is releases that have been delayed for a multitude of reasons.
I don't necessarily need my legion upgrades in plastic, but I would like an expanded range of plastic kits. More marks of armor, assault marines, a few plastic tank kits, that sort of thing. It would help lower the barrier of entry by a good amount.
-The Deimos hull would cover you for Rhinos, all makes of Predator, Whirlwind, Vindicators and Damocles. A Demios kit could give you the option to make a rhino and predator w/autocannons. You want something else, kit-bash from the 40k tanks or buy the appropriate upgrade kit from FW.
-A Sicaran hull could run much along the same lines. Kit makes a standard Sicaran Battle Tank and maybe one of the anti-tank variants, the Omega for example. You want the Arcus, Punisher or Venator, go to FW for it.
-The Dreadnoughts could both be similar kits. Have 'X' amount of sprues for the main body/bits. And 'X' amount of sprues for the weapons. That way you've got all your options available. The current plastic contemptor is two sprues, from memory, but is push fit with only 3 weapons. A full/semi multipose kit with one of each weapon option would probably blow it out to 4 sprues. I'd have to imagine a similar kit for the Levi you'd be looking at least 5 of the big sprues.
-Jetbikes would be a real winner here I think. Pack of 3 with all the weapon options. Maybe a choice of armour Mk for the rider if they're feeling generous.
Agreed with nearly all of this. A Leviathan Dreadnought would not be as many sprues as you think though, its essentially the same size as the plastic Redemptor kit. Give it a claw, Storm cannon, and fusion option, and make sure the weapons can all be mounted left or right. If you want to double up guns, buy 2 kits.
What are the odds of it we get a new eiditon of 30k in some capacity the game will go down in size from the old 6x4 to the new board size for AOS and 40k?
Crazyterran wrote: Just wait for the Primaris release to represent the super secret testing Cawl did!
.. And this is why HH players want a separation with their game
At the moment the Crusade/Heresy-era stuff is nicely isolated from any of the modern release nonsense of 40k; of GI Joe Super Team + Marines, Primarchs returning from the dead or new Tonka Toy STC template vehicles and wargear etc.
That's been my experience of 30k for the mast part, I have a few friends who play it but everyone else who thinks they play it just do mega battles ala apoc exclusively or use the miniatures in 40k. The distinction is barely there for a lot of players as is, they just want their toys basically. But it's seemingly never enough to leave the HH ruleset alone, even to the point of gw making rules for all of the 30k in 40k, somehow 30k's superior ruleset just has to get the ides of march treatment with all well wishers grabbing their shiny models while stabbing the rules in the back. And I'm not even coming at this as some great fan of the fluff or the novels, the rules are just better, a lot better. I every conceivable way. 40k now is a collectable card game with models, god help us if they come for 30k's rules.
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Sacredroach wrote: I could see this actually being a cross-marketing push by GW: the ancient tech is still available in very limited quantities to current SM chapters...as are the original marines. If they adjust the scale a little (big fan of larger marines...my eyes are approaching 50) then the newer players who favor Primaris may look at them for options.
Make the HH 7th Rulebook available in this box to remove the usual barriers of entry, add dice...I mean just "Pelenor Fields" the box set. Buy one and get playing immediately.
Make a single book with just the rules for all the units from the HH books as a companion and take up the plastics ideas from above per Snrub and you hit the HH crowd, the Nostalgia crowd and the new players wanting to add some spice to their modern forces.
The main army to have to work with would be the Mechanicum, as I am not aware of the current Codex offering any of the cool gadgets from the past. Maybe that could be in the "All the Forces" book? Just spitballing here.
They could easily do the little rulebook with minimal editing too ya.
hotsauceman1 wrote: What are the odds of it we get a new eiditon of 30k in some capacity the game will go down in size from the old 6x4 to the new board size for AOS and 40k?
I think zero... or I would like to think zero. Which means probably...
hotsauceman1 wrote: What are the odds of it we get a new eiditon of 30k in some capacity the game will go down in size from the old 6x4 to the new board size for AOS and 40k?
I think zero... or I would like to think zero. Which means probably...
Given how it happened to both AoS and 40k, i think it's in fact, very likely
Even if a slightly tweaked edition of the 30k rules does reduce table size, that doesn't mean you have to play on that smaller board. Personally I'll stick to 6x4 or even larger when I can get it, because big HH games crowd the table enough as it is. Never understood this weird obsession to play on smaller board sizes just because the rulebook suggests it as the minimum size.
Crablezworth wrote: That's been my experience of 30k for the mast part, I have a few friends who play it but everyone else who thinks they play it just do mega battles ala apoc exclusively or use the miniatures in 40k. The distinction is barely there for a lot of players as is, they just want their toys basically. But it's seemingly never enough to leave the HH ruleset alone, even to the point of gw making rules for all of the 30k in 40k, somehow 30k's superior ruleset just has to get the ides of march treatment with all well wishers grabbing their shiny models while stabbing the rules in the back. And I'm not even coming at this as some great fan of the fluff or the novels, the rules are just better, a lot better. I every conceivable way. 40k now is a collectable card game with models, god help us if they come for 30k's rules.
They're both pretty terrible wargames...just in very different ways. Modern 40K is a leaner core ruleset surrounded by endless supplemental sprawl in every direction. Meanwhile, the 7th edition core rules are wildly overwrought and stacked too high on top of the 3rd edition base, like some kind of faltering Jenga tower.
Both games are mostly about the pretty miniatures.
Mr. Grey wrote: Even if a slightly tweaked edition of the 30k rules does reduce table size, that doesn't mean you have to play on that smaller board. Personally I'll stick to 6x4 or even larger when I can get it, because big HH games crowd the table enough as it is. Never understood this weird obsession to play on smaller board sizes just because the rulebook suggests it as the minimum size.
Its because GW proscribes it as the standard for its officially sanctioned tournaments, which in turn means lower tier tournaments are also going to use it because everyone wants to "train like they fight" and prep for the next big tournament, which means those players are also going to play their non-tournament games in the same manner, which means all the casuals are going to play it that way too because thats what their tourney focused brethren are going to insist upon.
Its why the whole "three ways to play" bit is a load of bull. The majority of the community is going to end up playing matched play following the standards set by the main competitive circuit - in the previous edition I could go to any shop in the tristate area and everyone would insist only on playing using the ITC rules, even for a casual game, even though it wasn't "rulebook official 40k". The only time narrative or open get trotted out is if its an individual/group that is isolated from the broader community and thus don't have community influence to pull them in that direction.
Mr. Grey wrote: Even if a slightly tweaked edition of the 30k rules does reduce table size, that doesn't mean you have to play on that smaller board. Personally I'll stick to 6x4 or even larger when I can get it, because big HH games crowd the table enough as it is. Never understood this weird obsession to play on smaller board sizes just because the rulebook suggests it as the minimum size.
Its because GW proscribes it as the standard for its officially sanctioned tournaments, which in turn means lower tier tournaments are also going to use it because everyone wants to "train like they fight" and prep for the next big tournament, which means those players are also going to play their non-tournament games in the same manner, which means all the casuals are going to play it that way too because thats what their tourney focused brethren are going to insist upon.
Its why the whole "three ways to play" bit is a load of bull. The majority of the community is going to end up playing matched play following the standards set by the main competitive circuit - in the previous edition I could go to any shop in the tristate area and everyone would insist only on playing using the ITC rules, even for a casual game, even though it wasn't "rulebook official 40k". The only time narrative or open get trotted out is if its an individual/group that is isolated from the broader community and thus don't have community influence to pull them in that direction.
This has unfortunately been my experience. I remember when 6th was relatively new going to my LGS on 40k night to see about three quarters of the players were playing optimized tournament winning lists, and the other quarter were younger kids who brought cool fluffy lists or ones comprised of models they liked. It was just embarrassing to watch grown men playing at an LGS crushing teenagers and constantly gaming the rules, not reminding their opponents of rules in their favor, and pulling out brand new FAQ info, etc. Not to say everyone that plays in local stores is like that, or that everyone who does is bad opponent/sport, but in my experiences a lot of casual settings follow what is used in top tier competitive tournaments, even if the players have not intention of ever playing in said top tier tournaments.
Which is generally why I don’t play games at LGS and just play with my buddies. If we don’t like how a rule is working, or board size, or an FAQ, or what not, we can just change it. The point of playing games is having fun, might as well get as much enjoyment out of it as you can.
chaos0xomega wrote: Its because GW proscribes it as the standard for its officially sanctioned tournaments, which in turn means lower tier tournaments are also going to use it because everyone wants to "train like they fight" and prep for the next big tournament, which means those players are also going to play their non-tournament games in the same manner, which means all the casuals are going to play it that way too because thats what their tourney focused brethren are going to insist upon.
They can take my 6x4's when they pry them from my cold dead hands.
I havent been following 40k closesly since 8th. What are the new average board sizes?
Given the prelevance of long range/artillary weapons in 30k, making the boards smaller doesnt really make a whole lot of sense. That being said, when has GW/FW been known for making sensible choices.
I’m not convinced it’ll happen for 30k, because the specialist games team is a completely separate team and it’s not been a thing for other specialist games yet, but it also wouldn’t really surprise me if it did.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the new 'recommended' board size, and recommended specifically because it's what they sell. No other reason.
So 60" X 45" as opposed to the old 72" X 48"?
Hmm That seems smaller then ideal for a 2k points game. I know my local GW has an 2 4'x4' tables for use and historically, they've been fine for 1250-1500 point games. But typically if someone wanted a bigger points game, they'd push them together. So I don't really see how well 30k would work on what would be essentially a 5'xtouch-less-then-4' table given that a small 30k game is 2k points and they average 3k around these parts.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the new 'recommended' board size, and recommended specifically because it's what they sell. No other reason.
So 60" X 45" as opposed to the old 72" X 48"?
Hmm That seems smaller then ideal for a 2k points game. I know my local GW has an 2 4'x4' tables for use and historically, they've been fine for 1250-1500 point games. But typically if someone wanted a bigger points game, they'd push them together. So I don't really see how well 30k would work on what would be essentially a 5'xtouch-less-then-4' table given that a small 30k game is 2k points and they average 3k around these parts.
You assume GW gives a gak about how well anything works
Mr. Grey wrote: Even if a slightly tweaked edition of the 30k rules does reduce table size, that doesn't mean you have to play on that smaller board. Personally I'll stick to 6x4 or even larger when I can get it, because big HH games crowd the table enough as it is. Never understood this weird obsession to play on smaller board sizes just because the rulebook suggests it as the minimum size.
Players have poor grasp of meaning minimum and fixation to take gw's word as absolutes.
Were gw to write game rules as "dice roll off, winner won game" tournaments would be done soon with 2 handfull of dice rolls.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the new 'recommended' board size, and recommended specifically because it's what they sell. No other reason.
So 60" X 45" as opposed to the old 72" X 48"?
Hmm That seems smaller then ideal for a 2k points game. I know my local GW has an 2 4'x4' tables for use and historically, they've been fine for 1250-1500 point games. But typically if someone wanted a bigger points game, they'd push them together. So I don't really see how well 30k would work on what would be essentially a 5'xtouch-less-then-4' table given that a small 30k game is 2k points and they average 3k around these parts.
You assume GW gives a gak about how well anything works
Or even tournament organisers who admitted they initially opposed it but then realized they can cram more players and thus increase income.
Crazyterran wrote: Just wait for the Primaris release to represent the super secret testing Cawl did!
.. And this is why HH players want a separation with their game
At the moment the Crusade/Heresy-era stuff is nicely isolated from any of the modern release nonsense of 40k; of GI Joe Super Team + Marines, Primarchs returning from the dead or new Tonka Toy STC template vehicles and wargear etc.
Gotta keep that 'brick with tank treads glued to the bottom of it' vehicle aesthetic going.
Mr. Grey wrote: Even if a slightly tweaked edition of the 30k rules does reduce table size, that doesn't mean you have to play on that smaller board. Personally I'll stick to 6x4 or even larger when I can get it, because big HH games crowd the table enough as it is. Never understood this weird obsession to play on smaller board sizes just because the rulebook suggests it as the minimum size.
Players have poor grasp of meaning minimum and fixation to take gw's word as absolutes.
Were gw to write game rules as "dice roll off, winner won game" tournaments would be done soon with 2 handfull of dice rolls.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the new 'recommended' board size, and recommended specifically because it's what they sell. No other reason.
So 60" X 45" as opposed to the old 72" X 48"?
Hmm That seems smaller then ideal for a 2k points game. I know my local GW has an 2 4'x4' tables for use and historically, they've been fine for 1250-1500 point games. But typically if someone wanted a bigger points game, they'd push them together. So I don't really see how well 30k would work on what would be essentially a 5'xtouch-less-then-4' table given that a small 30k game is 2k points and they average 3k around these parts.
You assume GW gives a gak about how well anything works
Or even tournament organisers who admitted they initially opposed it but then realized they can cram more players and thus increase income.
It's about money.
Word minimum even tells it's not optimal.
Minimum is in no way mutually exclusive with optimal and for 40k, the smaller board works better.
chaos0xomega wrote: Its because GW proscribes it as the standard for its officially sanctioned tournaments, which in turn means lower tier tournaments are also going to use it because everyone wants to "train like they fight" and prep for the next big tournament, which means those players are also going to play their non-tournament games in the same manner, which means all the casuals are going to play it that way too because thats what their tourney focused brethren are going to insist upon.
They can take my 6x4's when they pry them from my cold dead hands.
Ditto. I'll play on the new table sizes at the local shops if my friends insist on it, but at home I'm using one of the 27+ 6x4 mats I own.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They can take my 6x4's when they pry them from my cold dead hands.
No kidding. I've seen people actually cutting their mats. It's like people never heard about the miracle of masking tape.
Yeah, I have nothing but negative judgement for those people. A 6x4 mat has a lot more versatility and utility than the weird ass 60x45 or whatever it is that GW wants people to use.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the new 'recommended' board size, and recommended specifically because it's what they sell. No other reason.
So 60" X 45" as opposed to the old 72" X 48"?
Hmm That seems smaller then ideal for a 2k points game. I know my local GW has an 2 4'x4' tables for use and historically, they've been fine for 1250-1500 point games. But typically if someone wanted a bigger points game, they'd push them together. So I don't really see how well 30k would work on what would be essentially a 5'xtouch-less-then-4' table given that a small 30k game is 2k points and they average 3k around these parts.
IIRC 60x45 is for 1500 points, 2000 points uses a size larger (i.e. add 2 more of those small foldable boards to the 60x45). Likewise I think sub-1000 pts you remove 2 of those boards from the 60x45 to make a smaller table.
I doubt 30k would bother acknowledging board sizes. It's never been penned as a tournament game and I doubt FW writing it would have the mind to start now. Unless there's a dramatic shift towards a lot of tournament players getting involved, the community at large probably won't care either - that said, with most LFGS' moving over to the smaller sizes anyway, it's probably going to happen (unofficially) by proxy until it becomes the norm.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They can take my 6x4's when they pry them from my cold dead hands.
No kidding. I've seen people actually cutting their mats. It's like people never heard about the miracle of masking tape.
The guys who made Conquest talked about most mat-makers stopped making mats any bigger than 6x4 after 40k changed. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but I can believe it.
chaos0xomega wrote:IIRC 60x45 is for 1500 points, 2000 points uses a size larger (i.e. add 2 more of those small foldable boards to the 60x45). Likewise I think sub-1000 pts you remove 2 of those boards from the 60x45 to make a smaller table.
Like, I can see how that sort of makes sense. As you scale up your games, you just keep adding boards. Also good for some basic floor/table hammer I guess. But by that same token there's no reason they couldn't have done it with 12"x12" boards for example.
Was there any reason given as to why the changed the table size or was it just another one of "those" decisions?
Gotta keep that 'brick with tank treads glued to the bottom of it' vehicle aesthetic going.
I like this aesthetic way more than the "everything floats now" one that they've got going with the Primaris tacticool stuff.
Unless there's a dramatic shift towards a lot of tournament players getting involved, the community at large probably won't care either - that said, with most LFGS' moving over to the smaller sizes anyway, it's probably going to happen (unofficially) by proxy until it becomes the norm.
All of the big gaming tables at my FLGS are 6x4 by default and they have a ton of the printed 6x4 mats. I don't see them cutting down the table size just to fit the new smaller GW standard.
Its because GW proscribes it as the standard for its officially sanctioned tournaments, which in turn means lower tier tournaments are also going to use it because everyone wants to "train like they fight" and prep for the next big tournament, which means those players are also going to play their non-tournament games in the same manner, which means all the casuals are going to play it that way too because thats what their tourney focused brethren are going to insist upon.
How many officially sanctioned tournaments does GW run these days? I think you're absolutely right, but things like this do make me glad that I'm not a tournament player and that I mostly play amongst a smaller group of like-minded friends. My main ork opponent and I have no idea what the ITC rules are and don't care to use them, we just throw down and play. Ditto my main 30k opponents.
chaos0xomega wrote:IIRC 60x45 is for 1500 points, 2000 points uses a size larger (i.e. add 2 more of those small foldable boards to the 60x45). Likewise I think sub-1000 pts you remove 2 of those boards from the 60x45 to make a smaller table.
Like, I can see how that sort of makes sense. As you scale up your games, you just keep adding boards. Also good for some basic floor/table hammer I guess. But by that same token there's no reason they couldn't have done it with 12"x12" boards for example.
Was there any reason given as to why the changed the table size or was it just another one of "those" decisions?
I don't know if it was ever given as a reason officially (I doubt it - GW doesn't justify business decisions like that to the public) but when GW started selling those folding card boards some years back it was generally assumed that they chose their dimensions to fit into their existing box sizes rather than figure out how to get the new boards to match the board sizes in use at the time.
In my opinion it's best to assume that the suggested board size is all about material production and has no motivation in game mechanics.
chaos0xomega wrote:IIRC 60x45 is for 1500 points, 2000 points uses a size larger (i.e. add 2 more of those small foldable boards to the 60x45). Likewise I think sub-1000 pts you remove 2 of those boards from the 60x45 to make a smaller table.
Like, I can see how that sort of makes sense. As you scale up your games, you just keep adding boards. Also good for some basic floor/table hammer I guess. But by that same token there's no reason they couldn't have done it with 12"x12" boards for example.
Was there any reason given as to why the changed the table size or was it just another one of "those" decisions?
I don't know if it was ever given as a reason officially (I doubt it - GW doesn't justify business decisions like that to the public) but when GW started selling those folding card boards some years back it was generally assumed that they chose their dimensions to fit into their existing box sizes rather than figure out how to get the new boards to match the board sizes in use at the time.
In my opinion it's best to assume that the suggested board size is all about material production and has no motivation in game mechanics.
Pretty much this. The boards predate 9th ed 40k by quite some time. I don't believe they were designed with 9th ed in mind, but rather I think they were motivated to try to sell more of them.
The new board size is based on the box footprint efficiency calculus GW does for their boxed games.
Which is based on their full sprue width.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the game and everything to do with wanting to be able to ship box sets with cardboard mats that add up to the standard board sizes.
the_scotsman wrote: The new board size is based on the box footprint efficiency calculus GW does for their boxed games.
Which is based on their full sprue width.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the game and everything to do with wanting to be able to ship box sets with cardboard mats that add up to the standard board sizes.
the_scotsman wrote: The new board size is based on the box footprint efficiency calculus GW does for their boxed games.
Which is based on their full sprue width.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the game and everything to do with wanting to be able to ship box sets with cardboard mats that add up to the standard board sizes.
Sir you are wise beyond your years.
While this is 100% true, I do find I prefer the smaller board. I was never under any illusion about the change in size once I saw that it matched 4x kill team boards. I still like it, though, even if it was purely a $$ decision originally, and not gameplay related. That combined with new terrain rules has really toned down some of the 8th edition problems.
I remember back in 2nd edition when armies were half the model count and the standard board size was 8’x4’, I try not to play on anything smaller.
FW did do upgrade sets for each legion for several mk’s of armour, and most were culled down to one set per legion a couple of years ago. They could just re-release the old sets?
Tamereth wrote: I remember back in 2nd edition when armies were half the model count and the standard board size was 8’x4’, I try not to play on anything smaller.
Yeah, maneuvering meant something when you had room to maneuver.
8x4 is still the best! Filled with lots of varied and LOS blocking terrain and interesting deployment zones/missions.
Tamereth wrote: I remember back in 2nd edition when armies were half the model count and the standard board size was 8’x4’, I try not to play on anything smaller.
Yeah, maneuvering meant something when you had room to maneuver.
8x4 is still the best! Filled with lots of varied and LOS blocking terrain and interesting deployment zones/missions.
Back when your lascannon could fire 96 inches but lost a point of strength for every foot past 48 inches.
the_scotsman wrote: The new board size is based on the box footprint efficiency calculus GW does for their boxed games.
Which is based on their full sprue width.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the game and everything to do with wanting to be able to ship box sets with cardboard mats that add up to the standard board sizes.
That last part is the wrong way around. They didn't want to ship boxes to meet their new size, the new size came about because of the pre-existing map size.
Like you said, the current board size exists because that's what GW could fit in their boxes. They don't (or rather didn't) do boxes that can contain 1'x1' card tiles (or multiples thereof), so they made some different sizes (starting with the Moon Base Klaisus experiment), which in turn led to Killteam and Warcry boards. Then, because they had the manufacturing capability to make these boards, they suddenly invented the recommended/minimum/whatever board size for 40k (and now AoS 3rd).
In the end it's a bit like the switch to 32mm bases: Everyone and their dog was making 6x4 table mats, so GW decided to change the standard size of the game using the boards (that existed out of necessity due to box constraints) and make everyone dance to their tune. And the tournament crowd and mat makers scrambled like World War Z zombies to comply.
And then they went and made 1x1 plastic tiles for Necromunda, meaning that they could very easily change the size to allow for 6x4, but they won't.
Tamereth wrote: I remember back in 2nd edition when armies were half the model count and the standard board size was 8’x4’, I try not to play on anything smaller.
Spoiler:
FW did do upgrade sets for each legion for several mk’s of armour, and most were culled down to one set per legion a couple of years ago. They could just re-release the old sets?
8x4 with half the models and fewer big ones, shorter moves, overwatch and other unit order or status chits, lots of great things came together make that the golden age of the game. These days, the game of 40k is like pogs with more money - let us see how much expensive plastic that we can mash all up in the middle to make a big explosive mess as soon as we can so that we can do it again... whee...
Best games of 30k I've had have been on 14x8 tables. 3000 points. When a flank falls, it falls. Also why I got basilisks and not medusa artillery.
Specifics aside this has got me excited for heresy era again. Sold off my stuff last year as well. I've cleared the garage for the airbrush and gaming board. Never played 30k in a shop.
We play on a 12' x 6' regularly and its amazing, so I imagine a 14' x 8' is even better. I honestly wouldn't walk across the room to play any 40K/30K game on a 6'x4' or smaller. Literally set two gunlines up 24" from each other and blast the crap out of each other, wow, fun.
Playing on much wider tables adds so much movement and strategy to the game, other than "ok I siezed here's 10 lascannons ".
Automatically Appended Next Post: We play 5-10k per side usually though.
Well if they do reduce the game to that size that shows a complete and utter lack of understanding of the type of gamers that collect and play 30k.
Treating it as though it's some lightweight skirmish game like Warcry, from my experience 30k/HH players want to go bigger!
Pacific wrote: Well if they do reduce the game to that size that shows a complete and utter lack of understanding of the type of gamers that collect and play 30k.
If they do reduce the minimum recommend size to 44x60, and you're already playing on 8x4 or 12x6 or whatever in your group, then what actual difference does it make to your group?
Lol, the conspiracy based hate for GW on Dakka is incredible. You really think they changed the board size to put the 6x4 mat makers out of business?!?
When they don't even make full size neoprene/equiv mats? You honestly think somebody in the market for a 6x4 mat suddenly decided to switch to a crappy fold up cardboard from GW because it's the right size?
You honestly think if GW wanted to take on the third party mat makers that would be their approach? You don't think they'd bring out their own mats? Or make the size a little bigger so that all those old 6x4 mats are useless rather than just being able to be masked off?
Most of the third party mat makers almost immediately started making the new size mats and selling them for no cheaper than the 6x4s.
I mean, even GWs premium Realm of Battle game board is 6x4 so they've just mugged themselves off there.
I've no doubt they made the recommended size to fit with their modular gameboards but the idea of this evil corporation spitefully taking on mat producers is ridiculous.
The gameboards are the size they are presumably due to cardstock/box constraints. If they could have made them 3'x2' I would imagine they would have...
Midnightdeathblade wrote: We play on a 12' x 6' regularly and its amazing, so I imagine a 14' x 8' is even better. I honestly wouldn't walk across the room to play any 40K/30K game on a 6'x4' or smaller. Literally set two gunlines up 24" from each other and blast the crap out of each other, wow, fun.
Playing on much wider tables adds so much movement and strategy to the game, other than "ok I siezed here's 10 lascannons ".
Automatically Appended Next Post: We play 5-10k per side usually though.
So basically what you're saying is that lining up two gunlines 36" away from each other and saying 'ok I siezed here's 50 lascannons' is the way to go.
Nurglitch wrote: Isn't it less than a standard board size and moreso a minimum recommended size?
Yes, but people (well, tournaments) take it as gospel that recommended = what it's supposed to be. It's not an outright "you cannot, under any circumstances, use a different size board" but when it comes to GW games people cling desperately to RAW. Apparently there were actually tournaments enforcing things like the 120pt Neophyte Hybrid typo.
Nurglitch wrote: Isn't it less than a standard board size and moreso a minimum recommended size?
Yes. It's also not much different than 6x4 in 40k except the constraints it adds to deepstrikes. 6x4 still isn't exactly huge by modern army standards. Every long range gun is going to cover the majority of the board in either configuartion. In 44x60 though, landing things outside of 9" becomes much more difficult so deepstrike blocking becomes much practical and necessary.
People who play on massive apocalypse style boards or people who play huge point levels might have a reason to prefer the larger board, but at 40k 2k, squeezing deepstrike has far more gameplay impact than a 6" strip of dead land on the sides of the board.
Nurglitch wrote: Isn't it less than a standard board size and moreso a minimum recommended size?
Yes, but people (well, tournaments) take it as gospel that recommended = what it's supposed to be. It's not an outright "you cannot, under any circumstances, use a different size board" but when it comes to GW games people cling desperately to RAW. Apparently there were actually tournaments enforcing things like the 120pt Neophyte Hybrid typo.
The RAW is that its a recommended minimum size. Even 'clinging desperately to RAW' would allow for larger size tables. It has nothing to do with your ' tournaments see recommended as what it's supposed to be' claim. You're talking about two totally different things; Recommendations vs RAW.
Your argument doesn't accomplish anything but serve as a vehicle to shoehorn in some whinging about 120pt Neophytes.
Nurglitch wrote: Isn't it less than a standard board size and moreso a minimum recommended size?
Yes, but people (well, tournaments) take it as gospel that recommended = what it's supposed to be. It's not an outright "you cannot, under any circumstances, use a different size board" but when it comes to GW games people cling desperately to RAW. Apparently there were actually tournaments enforcing things like the 120pt Neophyte Hybrid typo.
While I can understand highlighting the influence of tournaments and the associated crowd, it's also worth considering that GW doesn't just set the suggested minimum size arbitrarily but bases it on boards they don't just sell individually but that oftentimes come in starter sets. That means a lot of people will have them and some of them, for instance the ones only starting out, will only have them and no other boards or mats. So that's what they use. And through prolific use they simply become the standard for a portion of the players.
The rules may call it suggested minimum size, but product support from GW will do its share to make it an acceptable standard in the absence of more influential factors against it.
At some point GW is gonna shrink their board sizes enough for your army to be able to punch the enemy from the deployment zone without moving, just you wait.
Abaddon303 wrote: Lol, the conspiracy based hate for GW on Dakka is incredible. You really think they changed the board size to put the 6x4 mat makers out of business?!?
No... that's not the point that was made.
Abaddon303 wrote: When they don't even make full size neoprene/equiv mats? You honestly think somebody in the market for a 6x4 mat suddenly decided to switch to a crappy fold up cardboard from GW because it's the right size?
No one said that either.
Abaddon303 wrote: You honestly think if GW wanted to take on the third party mat makers that would be their approach? You don't think they'd bring out their own mats? Or make the size a little bigger so that all those old 6x4 mats are useless rather than just being able to be masked off?
It worked, didn't it? As I said, every mat maker jumped to make the new size board. GW shifted the market.
And GW did try their own mats (4x4). They were so overpriced that they didn't shift, and now they don't make them.
Abaddon303 wrote: Most of the third party mat makers almost immediately started making the new size mats and selling them for no cheaper than the 6x4s.
Which they did because of GW's actions.
Abaddon303 wrote: I mean, even GWs premium Realm of Battle game board is 6x4 so they've just mugged themselves off there.
And those aren't going to be around forever.
Abaddon303 wrote: I've no doubt they made the recommended size to fit with their modular gameboards but the idea of this evil corporation spitefully taking on mat producers is ridiculous.
These are your words, no one else's.
Abaddon303 wrote: The gameboards are the size they are presumably due to cardstock/box constraints. If they could have made them 3'x2' I would imagine they would have...
We already said that. The board size came about due to box restraints. But they didn't have to then go and make that the standard for 40k. They didn't have to define that at all. And as already stated they can make larger tiles now - they make 1x1's in plastic for Necromunda - but choose not to.
So what does this mean if not an accusation that GW wanted to sideline manufacturers of 6x4 mats?
"In the end it's a bit like the switch to 32mm bases: Everyone and their dog was making 6x4 table mats, so GW decided to change the standard size of the game using the boards (that existed out of necessity due to box constraints) and make everyone dance to their tune. And the tournament crowd and mat makers scrambled like World War Z zombies to comply."
Fair enough you do acknowledge box constraints for their board sizes as to the reason the size ended up being what it is, but you appear to be stating that the driving reason for actually changing the standard size was because of third party manufacturers.
To be fair, a whole lot of things GW does is to crack down on third parties. Like the fact you can't bring their models to tournaments, or the no model = no rules thing.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: To be fair, a whole lot of things GW does is to crack down on third parties. Like the fact you can't bring their models to tournaments, or the no model = no rules thing.
Sure, for official GW tourneys. I can't use aeronautica imperialis models at official FF (or the new sub-company for xwing and M:CP cant remember the name) x-wing tourneys either (unless that's changed IDK).
Why would they allow you to showcase other companies' models at a tournament they are hosting and funding? That's silly.
Yet another HH mini painted in Eavy Metal style. My conspiracy theorist mind thinks that since all of the new HH minis are painted in this style, it points towards HH becoming a "proper" GW specialist game sooner or later - possibly coinciding with the new plastic HH box release. No more elaborate military modellers making their kits like in the days of old.. Sad.
the_scotsman wrote: The new board size is based on the box footprint efficiency calculus GW does for their boxed games.
Which is based on their full sprue width.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the game and everything to do with wanting to be able to ship box sets with cardboard mats that add up to the standard board sizes.
It has something to do with the game. When the new edition launched Wade had someone on the podcast where they discussed this issue and they said part of the rationale was that it was hard to get people into the game if a special-purpose piece of furniture was a requirement to play "the right way." They went on to say that the 6x4 standard was a sort of accident of history and there was nothing intrinsic to the game that required those specific dimensions.
You're spot on about how the tile/sprue size are related, but I think the design goal of having a game that can be played properly on a kitchen table, and not require an oversize surface better suited for a shed/basement/dedicated game, makes perfect sense.
Every part of Maloghurst is beautifully sculpted. There are some amazing details and features. The mini as a whole though just highlights how badly proportioned old style marines are. His top half and bottom half look like they were sculpted to different scales.
Another Horus heresy mini I will be buying even though I don't play. I'm going to convert him into an ancient for my Iron Hands -- or maybe as a mysterious black shield ancient for the deathwatch? Either way it's a great sculpt.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I got a a display case and some White scars Horus Heresy minis. I thought that small PRide of the Legion/Chorgorian bortherhood would look pretty cool in the display case.
I need a box of Mkiv to turn my bikes into mk4 bikers and i could not at all find them.
Abaddon303 wrote: So what does this mean if not an accusation that GW wanted to sideline manufacturers of 6x4 mats?
I very much doubt that was part of their plans. Within 1-2 weeks of the announcement that 9th would be using new table sizes all the major 6x4 mat manufacturers were taking preorders for mats sized to fit the new standards. I very much doubt anyone at GW corporate sat in a board room twirling their moustache while saying "If we change the table size to these nonstandard sizes all the mat manufacturers will go out of business because they won't be able to print mats in these other sizes"
tauist wrote: Yet another HH mini painted in Eavy Metal style.
How can you tell?? I just look at minis and go "oh cool paintjob". lol
It has something to do with the game. When the new edition launched Wade had someone on the podcast where they discussed this issue and they said part of the rationale was that it was hard to get people into the game if a special-purpose piece of furniture was a requirement to play "the right way." They went on to say that the 6x4 standard was a sort of accident of history and there was nothing intrinsic to the game that required those specific dimensions.
You're spot on about how the tile/sprue size are related, but I think the design goal of having a game that can be played properly on a kitchen table, and not require an oversize surface better suited for a shed/basement/dedicated game, makes perfect sense.
Yeah, thats a load of crap. Theres very few tables out there that will fit a 44"x60" table - in fact, most of the ones that fit a 44" x 60" will also fit a 4x6. As a point of fact, Ikea does not make a single table sized to fit 44x60 boards, nor do any of the major industrial furniture manufacturers that I am aware of.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I got a a display case and some White scars Horus Heresy minis. I thought that small PRide of the Legion/Chorgorian bortherhood would look pretty cool in the display case.
I need a box of Mkiv to turn my bikes into mk4 bikers and i could not at all find them.
Abaddon303 wrote: So what does this mean if not an accusation that GW wanted to sideline manufacturers of 6x4 mats?
I very much doubt that was part of their plans. Within 1-2 weeks of the announcement that 9th would be using new table sizes all the major 6x4 mat manufacturers were taking preorders for mats sized to fit the new standards. I very much doubt anyone at GW corporate sat in a board room twirling their moustache while saying "If we change the table size to these nonstandard sizes all the mat manufacturers will go out of business because they won't be able to print mats in these other sizes"
tauist wrote: Yet another HH mini painted in Eavy Metal style.
How can you tell?? I just look at minis and go "oh cool paintjob". lol
It has something to do with the game. When the new edition launched Wade had someone on the podcast where they discussed this issue and they said part of the rationale was that it was hard to get people into the game if a special-purpose piece of furniture was a requirement to play "the right way." They went on to say that the 6x4 standard was a sort of accident of history and there was nothing intrinsic to the game that required those specific dimensions.
You're spot on about how the tile/sprue size are related, but I think the design goal of having a game that can be played properly on a kitchen table, and not require an oversize surface better suited for a shed/basement/dedicated game, makes perfect sense.
Yeah, thats a load of crap. Theres very few tables out there that will fit a 44"x60" table - in fact, most of the ones that fit a 44" x 60" will also fit a 4x6. As a point of fact, Ikea does not make a single table sized to fit 44x60 boards, nor do any of the major industrial furniture manufacturers that I am aware of.
Purely Anecdotal, but i could not fit a 6x4 on a table in my house. I can now fit a standard 40k board.
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tauist wrote: Yet another HH mini painted in Eavy Metal style. My conspiracy theorist mind thinks that since all of the new HH minis are painted in this style, it points towards HH becoming a "proper" GW specialist game sooner or later - possibly coinciding with the new plastic HH box release. No more elaborate military modellers making their kits like in the days of old.. Sad.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, thats a load of crap. Theres very few tables out there that will fit a 44"x60" table - in fact, most of the ones that fit a 44" x 60" will also fit a 4x6. As a point of fact, Ikea does not make a single table sized to fit 44x60 boards, nor do any of the major industrial furniture manufacturers that I am aware of.
Using the card board tiles instead of a cloth or mousepad mat means you can overhang a little bit if you are careful, so a table like the https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/nordviken-extendable-table-black-20368714/ ought to work. You can even extend it to have room for dice, drinks, and dead models on the ends.
Abaddon303 wrote: Fair enough you do acknowledge box constraints for their board sizes as to the reason the size ended up being what it is, but you appear to be stating that the driving reason for actually changing the standard size was because of third party manufacturers.
This is something they have been doing quite a lot since the Chapterhouse debacle.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, thats a load of crap. Theres very few tables out there that will fit a 44"x60" table - in fact, most of the ones that fit a 44" x 60" will also fit a 4x6. As a point of fact, Ikea does not make a single table sized to fit 44x60 boards, nor do any of the major industrial furniture manufacturers that I am aware of.
Using the card board tiles instead of a cloth or mousepad mat means you can overhang a little bit if you are careful, so a table like the https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/nordviken-extendable-table-black-20368714/ ought to work. You can even extend it to have room for dice, drinks, and dead models on the ends.
If we're talking overhangs you can accomplish the same thing by sitting a 6x4 sheet of mdf on top of the table as well. When done, simply stick the 6x4 sheet under the bed or behind some shelves, etc. Used to do that in college, except we put the mdf sheet on top of my bed since I didn't have space for a table in my dorm room.
As explained earlier, the bulk of the community follows the trend of the organized play community, thats how it is in every tabletop wargame with an organized play program and GWs games are no different. Some individual local communities, for whatever reason, are insulated against the OP influence, but most are not so fortunate. In my own case, the majority of the shops and players in the region migrated to using only the minimum recommended table sizes because the bulk of the local commuinties consist of tournament or tournament adjacent players. Quite a few stores cut down their mats or replaced them as well. Are there still players around happy to play on a 6x4? Yes, there are a few, but for the most part the only way I'll get those games in is if I host them over at my place.
chaos0xomega wrote: As explained earlier, the bulk of the community follows the trend of the organized play community, thats how it is in every tabletop wargame with an organized play program and GWs games are no different. Some individual local communities, for whatever reason, are insulated against the OP influence, but most are not so fortunate. In my own case, the majority of the shops and players in the region migrated to using only the minimum recommended table sizes because the bulk of the local commuinties consist of tournament or tournament adjacent players. Quite a few stores cut down their mats or replaced them as well. Are there still players around happy to play on a 6x4? Yes, there are a few, but for the most part the only way I'll get those games in is if I host them over at my place.
This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.
I understand you are describing the 40K community in your post but I honestly feel there is not a comparison in light of each communities current form. As a 30K player myself, my one fear of GW solely handling 30K would be morphing it into a clone of 40K. And GW just deciding to reduce the table size of 30K might not be a big deal, you certainly can just still continue playing on whatever board you and your group have been for years now, but a change like that may set a precedent that 30K is going to be treated like 40K, and become another competitive wargame. This will undoubtedly attract a vast new audience of competitive players to HH.
New players usually aren't a bad thing, but if the game begins getting "supported" at the rate 40K is to meet the demand of an ever expanding competitive meta, and HH veterans suddenly find themselves having a game with Timmy the Tyrant and his min/max Iron Warrior artillery army who has never been to their LGS before and proceeds to treat every game as a test for his new meta comp list....If that even potentially becomes the norm, I can see how people who truly love this game and it's setting might be resistant to changes that mirror that of 40K.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And im not coming at you chaos, just playing off your statement.
Because the 30k community and the 40k community aren't even remotely similar from a support and patronage perspective.
You are correct that, in their current form, the 30k community doesn't do this. What some of us fear however is that if GW suddenly makes a "big deal" of 30k (so to speak), rather than it being a half-forgotten set of rules that scarcely gets a release these days, that it will gain some of the more recent trappings of their bigger games, one example being those undersized boards. Then, if 30k really becomes a "big deal" among the players, then the standardisation that we see in 40k from people jumping to dance to GW's tune will start to permeate the 30k player base as well.
I fail to see how it becoming bigger makes the game worse.
The Historical aspect of the game can still be there. Nothing will prevent you from doing personal army projects or playing on a bigger board. IF you dont want to, play with other like minded people or ask your opponent.
If you think smaller board helps melee think again. Same distance to cover anyway. Does make harder to hide from shooting though. In aos side lumineth, particularly shooting ones, are already drooling at the power up their shooting gets with smaller boards.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I got a a display case and some White scars Horus Heresy minis. I thought that small PRide of the Legion/Chorgorian bortherhood would look pretty cool in the display case.
I need a box of Mkiv to turn my bikes into mk4 bikers and i could not at all find them.
This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.
I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.
I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.
I mean, that's a combo of two of the most overpowered lists in 30k. Both have been dialed back since, but they were both in "what were the designers even thinking" category when they were released. I look at sekhmet and still think the same thing: very under-costed / overpowered.
This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.
I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.
One used to see a lot of Phosphex Quad Mortars at those "narrative experience" events too, lol.
This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.
I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.
One used to see a lot of Phosphex Quad Mortars at those "narrative experience" events too, lol.
Many years ago when our club ran its first 30k event we asked the community what restrictions to put in place in the event pack - the feedback was that 30k was perfect and didn't need any restrictions. One player then used a Leviathan Detachment with only titans and we got moaned at (and Leviathan was banned from all future events).
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Sometimes i wonder why people use "narrative" things mostly as an excuse to spam the most broken things.
OK so like the fluff for my army is like General Glorioso really, really likes to win so he like studies how every unit on the battlefield performs and when he finds something awesome he uses it.
This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.
I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.
Was that the one where someone used both Primarch and Daemon Prince Magnus the Red in the same force?
Both the concept of thinking of doing that, and the reactions to it (I'm sure you can imagine) were absolutely hilarious.
Generally though think 30k players are almost like historical gamers in their efforts to make their forces 'accurate'. Right down to helmet stripes, company listings, forces using the right equipment etc. So crap like the scenario above would be extremely rare from my experience.
This is not/has never been reflective of the 30k community. People playing 30k are like people playing historical wargames, its more of an experience/narrative to them. Tournaments were always very rare. 30K players are spending hundreds of extra $$$ on making their "uniforms" accurate for their little soldiers. That's part of the appeal, creating unique and personalized armies that represent historical forces in a fictional setting. I would say, in my opinion, a large portion of competitive 40k players don't care about that in the slightest, and just get that army 3 color minimum in time for the next event. 30K players are bringing 20man tactical squads on foot and charging across the table to certain death because it fits the narrative of the setting, not because it is the most efficient use of points, or because they have 12 CP to make sure they kill half the table on their way.
I remember there was a Warhammer World Narrative doubles event where somebody brought Magnus/Thousand Sons with Custodes and their opponents had the dubious pleasure of enduring literal forty-five minute Psychic Phases. Needless to say, the response on forums and Facebook was, uhh, colourful.
One used to see a lot of Phosphex Quad Mortars at those "narrative experience" events too, lol.
Many years ago when our club ran its first 30k event we asked the community what restrictions to put in place in the event pack - the feedback was that 30k was perfect and didn't need any restrictions. One player then used a Leviathan Detachment with only titans and we got moaned at (and Leviathan was banned from all future events).
Fox got in the henhouse!
Clearly must have been an imposter and a member of the great unwashed 40K community. Everyone knows that real 30K players only field masses of Tacticals.
Well 3k+ game with 4 models(cheapest titan being warhound at 750) you will struggle with objectives. I have used warhound and what struct was just how little it killed for points.
tneva82 wrote: Well 3k+ game with 4 models(cheapest titan being warhound at 750) you will struggle with objectives. I have used warhound and what struct was just how little it killed for points.
30k, 40k, even apocalypse Titans are badly over costed compared to the damage they can put out. The only reason a warhound was bumped to 2000 points in 40k is so it can't be used in normal games, which it could back when it was 750 points.
Yea. Which is what makes that ban weird. Oh gee opponent brought couple warhound. Now you auto win.
Though in 40k it was 1500 before it got bumbed to 2000.
And core issue is that the model is too big for scale. Eventually unit becomes too big for the scale making balancing impossible. If warhound would be at 750 it would force knights to go lot cheaper as they would then be ridiculously priced compared to warhound.This means tanks need to go down. Which means infantry means go down. Which means you hit into bottom. Impossible to scale it down. Either you lose on objectives or you are ridiculously underpriced for your durability/killyness to keep up with cheaper units at which point you invalidate medium-higher level point units.
(this is why I'm not thrilled at the idea of imperator titan in AT)
Yes I think aside from the rules, I just find the concept of 28mm Titans in 30k or 40k (outside of 12ft table mega battles) just.. wrong.
It's one thing having them as display or painting projects, but if you want to play as them in a game either Adeptus Titanicus or any of the many versions of Epic are a much better choice.
That's a problem for Knights and other super-heavy/very-big models too, that they're just boring bricks of points rather than units that behave in an interesting way. They're just so big they can't be ignored, like a singularity of suck on a gaming table.
Lovely models for collecting, building, painting, and displaying though.
Nurglitch wrote: That's a problem for Knights and other super-heavy/very-big models too, that they're just boring bricks of points rather than units that behave in an interesting way. They're just so big they can't be ignored, like a singularity of suck on a gaming table.
Lovely models for collecting, building, painting, and displaying though.
Could argue the same for aircraft, primarchs, vehicles bigger than a land raider, monsters over 3 inches tall with wings. Everyone is going to draw the line at a different place.
The titan problem is less to do with their size and more that the are point costed not to be balanced based on standards used for other units, but just a ton of points that start at "too many to take one in a normal to large game" and go up by roughly "eh this one is about 50% bigger, so make it cost twice as much" and then "this one is basically this titan standing o top of this one, so make it cost about the same as the two of them combined." And instead of giving the different weapons costs, they just let you slap on whatever guns you want in any combination for the exact same points, except warlord carapace which must be taken in pairs since that is how they are sold.
Nurglitch wrote: That's a problem for Knights and other super-heavy/very-big models too, that they're just boring bricks of points rather than units that behave in an interesting way. They're just so big they can't be ignored, like a singularity of suck on a gaming table.
Lovely models for collecting, building, painting, and displaying though.
Could argue the same for aircraft, primarchs, vehicles bigger than a land raider, monsters over 3 inches tall with wings. Everyone is going to draw the line at a different place.
The titan problem is less to do with their size and more that the are point costed not to be balanced based on standards used for other units, but just a ton of points that start at "too many to take one in a normal to large game" and go up by roughly "eh this one is about 50% bigger, so make it cost twice as much" and then "this one is basically this titan standing o top of this one, so make it cost about the same as the two of them combined." And instead of giving the different weapons costs, they just let you slap on whatever guns you want in any combination for the exact same points, except warlord carapace which must be taken in pairs since that is how they are sold.
Except you cannot balance out those titans. They simply break game too much.
Warhound. If it's pointed according to killingness/durability you auto lose due to objectives.
If you make it cheap enough you can take enough other stuff to not auto lose on objectives it's so overkilly/durable for points that when faced with more elite army it simply runs over them by being so underpriced for durability.
It's too big for one model that you can't point it so that it's fair both against cheap guys AND elite guys.
Take 40k warlord titan. It could cost 2000 pts and you would auto lose most games. Instantly. Opponent doesn't even have to bother dealing with it. It's now costed at 6k. However if you were to bring him against knight army...then you auto win as it will delete knights too efficiently.
If you make it cheaper than 2k so that you can have some support to hold objectives...it's hardly going to be fair points based on killyness/durability and this basically would invalidate knight armies, imperial guard baneblade companies etc. Might just as well not show up.
You break the scale of game too much, it's going to be impossible to balance out. Make up big enough titan and adeptus titanicus rules break and you would need new ruleset designed around THAT scale.
Titans really belong in an Epic scale game, I have many fond memories of 2nd ed Epic games mixing titans, vehicles and infantry.
For 28mm games though - yeah I mostly think of titans as display pieces or maybe battlefield decoration. It doesn't really make sense to have rules for them on that scale, they live on a different detail level.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Sometimes i wonder why people use "narrative" things mostly as an excuse to spam the most broken things.
When I played HH a few years ago, the draw for me was theming my army. I played Ultramarines, and I wanted a good mix of Terminators, Legionnaires (Basic Bolter Bros) and Dreadnoughts. So that's the army I built, and it looked great. Unfortunately, even though I was told at every turn how HH is all about the narrative, all about the stories and fun, every opponent I went to the table against had massively optimized lists, and usually shredded me to pieces in a turn or two. Every. Single. One. Eventually, I realized a lot of that was just talk and not really representative of the what the community was about and I sold my army and left.
I have heard talk that the game is coming back to plastic soon. If so, I might consider going in on another army and trying to find more story driven gamers to play with. But, I dunno. I don't have high hopes...
Except you cannot balance out those titans. They simply break game too much.
Warhound. If it's pointed according to killingness/durability you auto lose due to objectives.
If you make it cheap enough you can take enough other stuff to not auto lose on objectives it's so overkilly/durable for points that when faced with more elite army it simply runs over them by being so underpriced for durability.
It's too big for one model that you can't point it so that it's fair both against cheap guys AND elite guys.
Take 40k warlord titan. It could cost 2000 pts and you would auto lose most games. Instantly. Opponent doesn't even have to bother dealing with it. It's now costed at 6k. However if you were to bring him against knight army...then you auto win as it will delete knights too efficiently.
If you make it cheaper than 2k so that you can have some support to hold objectives...it's hardly going to be fair points based on killyness/durability and this basically would invalidate knight armies, imperial guard baneblade companies etc. Might just as well not show up.
You break the scale of game too much, it's going to be impossible to balance out. Make up big enough titan and adeptus titanicus rules break and you would need new ruleset designed around THAT scale.
I think, when it comes to Titans, you have to design & price them to suitable levels of damage and resilience, and damn the (matched play) objectives.
Pretty much anyone invested enough in 40k to have shelled out on one of these behemoths is going to be able to realise that they're not suited to matched play, but still obviously have a place in Open and/or non-Crusade narrative games.
When I started heresy, ideas of 20 tactical marines + medic sounded cool. Then you realize they ain't that cheap and basically don't do anything. 20 allied guardsmen for 40pts more or less does the same thing. Ah, but they are not as durable as marines...Well, everything in game is designed to wipe out marines quite effective, pie plates are quite common too...so yeah, suddenly you realize, you want tanks, lots of AV, and if you have marines, have em in 10 man squads in rhinos(veterans are for points way better than tacticals which kinda end up as dead weight).
Stick 10 terminators with HQ in spartan most of the time too.
When looking at 30k conversation online I have seen a Big disconnect between what most people Tell you the Spirit of the Game and setting and how most people actually, at least, Talk how they play.
Theres a ton of competitiveness and list min/maxing I was not expecting with how I has always tought the 30k community was.
My idea of playing was also Big blobs of marines fighting each other with some support in trenches and terrain and what I found was deathstars upon deathstars and artillery and vehicle spam.
Galas wrote: When looking at 30k conversation online I have seen a Big disconnect between what most people Tell you the Spirit of the Game and setting and how most people actually, at least, Talk how they play.
Theres a ton of competitiveness and list min/maxing I was not expecting with how I has always tought the 30k community was.
My idea of playing was also Big blobs of marines fighting each other with some support in trenches and terrain and what I found was deathstars upon deathstars and artillery and vehicle spam.
Well, that's the problem with the game, where you make tacticals only carry bolters, you make em overpriced compared to their performance, and you make everything else good at killing them, while at the same time you make tacticals suck at killing everything else. Not to mention that a single guy can route whole unit. It's even worse when you pit them against custodes or mehanicum. They are bad vs marines, they are next to useless vs latter.
H.B.M.C. wrote: There is just no way on God's green earth that that model is going to arrive looking that good with FW's legendary QA.
He will truly live up to his Twisted moniker.
Now with Heresy Battle damage! Not the reversible kind He-Man had on his chest but more like the kind you get when a teething sibling discovers your toy box.
H.B.M.C. wrote: There is just no way on God's green earth that that model is going to arrive looking that good with FW's legendary QA.
FW has QA in the first place? I thought their employees were all blindfolded and just tossed everything straight from the molds into the box.
Oh, that's definitely what they do, but you skipped a step for the bigger models: they sign a little slip of paper so you know who exactly was the blindfolded person tossing the resin from the moulds to the boxes.
H.B.M.C. wrote: There is just no way on God's green earth that that model is going to arrive looking that good with FW's legendary QA.
I have not had casting issues at all on my last few orders. Fufillment and billing problems sure, but claiming fw casting is terrible is just hyperbole
I'll fight you on that claim of hyperbole. While the last 2 orders I had were pretty okay in terms of mold slips, all their first wave titanicus releases were dogcrap. And so were the replacements. I'll take bubbles all day, but I cannot fix massive mold skews/slips, clearly chunks of mold left on the model or recently ripped away. It was clear their master mold was garbage. Hoping that's why they were all out of stock for so long - remaking the master/secondary or whatever the process is there.
I'll say anything I got from Forgeworld is heaps above any finecrap from GW. I guess their smaller miniatures and especially Lotr works simply better with Resin than the big stuff? My Plague Hulk still holds more detail than any plastic model I ever saw though so there's that.
I've got a handful of their necromunda models, the Lion, Russ' pets, and then a bunch of older stuff. Though I actually haven't assembled anything, just looking at the models still on their resin blocks, I didn't see anything noteworthy
H.B.M.C. wrote: There is just no way on God's green earth that that model is going to arrive looking that good with FW's legendary QA.
I have not had casting issues at all on my last few orders. Fufillment and billing problems sure, but claiming fw casting is terrible is just hyperbole
This. I’ve placed many, many orders with FW over the past 15 years or so, I’ve never had any issues with casting flaws. I’ve had a couple of broken parts which have been replaced without much fuss.
I get the impression that there have been a small amount of FW kits which have been problematic (for whatever reason), and people with limited experience have assumed that this is the norm.
Also, there are people who a big part of their hobby seems to be criticising GW/FW, I find it best to not take much notice of them TBH.
Maloghurst selling out was a given, after what happened with Saul Tarvitz I didn't even bother thinking about whether to get him or not !
Quality wise, I've bought from Forgeworld since it started , I've only ever had these issues, all of which were fixed ;
Fire Raptor supplied with two left sides
Slippage on a Word Bearers jet pack squad (cant remember the name of them)
Night Goblin standard bearer missing the banner top.
With GW itself , since 2nd edition 40K I've only ever had;
Missing sprue from start collecting plague monks.
Miscast on Deathwatch Overkill genestealer sprue.
Missing cards from Warcry terrain box.
Missing sprue from Pariah Nexus.
Going a bit off topic but I have had more issues, from buying far far less, with Warlord and Privateer Press. TBF to Warlord they usually do make it up pretty well - most recently my Stalingrad set was missing bases and barbed wire and they sent me a box full of bases and double wire.
Building my first FW Titan right now and I'm actually surprised how well it fits together and how little clean up is needed, though the official instructions are rubbish - using youtube videos.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Okay, how about "FW casting is inconsistent and often errors aren't caught or rejected, which makes their QA terrible"?
This is absolutely not my experience. The two broken parts that I referred to in my post happened during transit, I have not had a single casting flaw in any of my FW orders. I’m not saying that it never happens, but it certainly does not happen “often”.
The idea that people receiving Maloghurst should prepare themselves for some kind of defect is just not grounded in reality. It’s a brand new mould, not one that has been used hundreds of times before.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Okay, how about "FW casting is inconsistent and often errors aren't caught or rejected, which makes their QA terrible"?
This is absolutely not my experience. The two broken parts that I referred to in my post happened during transit, I have not had a single casting flaw in any of my FW orders. I’m not saying that it never happens, but it certainly does not happen “often”.
The idea that people receiving Maloghurst should prepare themselves for some kind of defect is just not grounded in reality. It’s a brand new mould, not one that has been used hundreds of times before.
Chiming in here with the "My FW purchasing experiences have largely been very positive" crowd. I think I've had one Contemptor lascannon that had a fairly bad mold slip, and after a quick email to FW they shipped out a new one. Super easy. Had one missing part in an assault squad, and it happened to be out of stock at the time I emailed. They offered either a) to send the replacement part when it was back in stock or b) a full refund voucher so that I could purchase the squad myself when it came back. I took the voucher.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I have not had casting issues at all on my last few orders. Fufillment and billing problems sure, but claiming fw casting is terrible is just hyperbole
I didn't say their casting. Is aid their QA. There is a difference.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I have not had casting issues at all on my last few orders. Fufillment and billing problems sure, but claiming fw casting is terrible is just hyperbole
I didn't say their casting. Is aid their QA. There is a difference.
Functionally, no. If the casting is not a problem, how is QA going to affect how the model looks? Catching a copy paste error on the packaging?
H.B.M.C. wrote: There is just no way on God's green earth that that model is going to arrive looking that good with FW's legendary QA.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I have not had casting issues at all on my last few orders. Fufillment and billing problems sure, but claiming fw casting is terrible is just hyperbole
I didn't say their casting. Is aid their QA. There is a difference.
Functionally, no. If the casting is not a problem, how is QA going to affect how the model looks? Catching a copy paste error on the packaging?
Getting parts in your blister that aren't from that kit, missing parts from your kit... you know, something that could be addressed by QA, giving assurance that what you ordered is what you will be receiving.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I have not had casting issues at all on my last few orders. Fufillment and billing problems sure, but claiming fw casting is terrible is just hyperbole
I didn't say their casting. Is aid their QA. There is a difference.
Functionally, no. If the casting is not a problem, how is QA going to affect how the model looks? Catching a copy paste error on the packaging?
Getting parts in your blister that aren't from that kit, missing parts from your kit... you know, something that could be addressed by QA, giving assurance that what you ordered is what you will be receiving.
That's fair. How often does it happen though? And how would it affect how one would expect a model to look?
Dark Uprising and Blood Bowl's latest edition were both November pre-orders, so there's a precedent for Specialist Game/FW boxsets landing then. August had Titanicus and the renewed MESBG as well, though with Covid and AoS 3.0 it's probably too early for it to be that.
The leaked photos though are convincing , Spartan isn’t massively bigger than a landraider , and fists vs sons of horus ties into the final siege on Terra as well be seeing the 7th siege book around November I guess.
Alpharius wrote: Has anything actually been 'confirmed' about this potential set, and what it contains?
Not yet. The leaked images came out right as the big advertising push for Dominion and Age of Sigmar 3rd ed started, so whether they were intentional or not, they put GW in an awkward spot. Obviously they couldn't take away from sales of Dominion by talking about the HH leaks. Since then it's been nothing but quiet - and more articles and marketing for Dominion and AoS - and I'm really hoping that now that Dominion is officially released that we'll see some form of article talking about the leaked pics and discussing what's coming for 30K. Next Saturday is an ork preview, so it's not going to be then, but maybe there'll be a mid-week article or something.
All that said, I'm trying to be patient. It looks like we've got good stuff coming, it's just a matter of when, and waiting for GW to officially announce/discuss it.
Mr. Grey wrote: Not yet. The leaked images came out right as the big advertising push for Dominion and Age of Sigmar 3rd ed started, so whether they were intentional or not, they put GW in an awkward spot. Obviously they couldn't take away from sales of Dominion by talking about the HH leaks. Since then it's been nothing but quiet - and more articles and marketing for Dominion and AoS - and I'm really hoping that now that Dominion is officially released that we'll see some form of article talking about the leaked pics and discussing what's coming for 30K. Next Saturday is an ork preview, so it's not going to be then, but maybe there'll be a mid-week article or something.
All that said, I'm trying to be patient. It looks like we've got good stuff coming, it's just a matter of when, and waiting for GW to officially announce/discuss it.
Not so much Warhammer Community, more like Age of Sigmar Community this past 2 weeks
Still, as 30k is pretty much a defacto specialist game, we have to be patient...
Alpharius wrote: Has anything actually been 'confirmed' about this potential set, and what it contains?
There’s been nothing official from GW yet, no. Just the leaked photos.
TwilightSparkles wrote:The leaked photos though are convincing , Spartan isn’t massively bigger than a landraider , and fists vs sons of horus ties into the final siege on Terra as well be seeing the 7th siege book around November I guess.
My guess would be £140-£180.
Thanks guys - much appreciated!
I went on vacation for a couple of weeks and wasn't sure if I missed anything "official"!
As known, we will get a Horus Heresy reboot in November. A little Bird twittered...
Note that some Points were maybe already leaked.
New "Edition" in Nov 2021
GW will overtake Horus Heresy as a "new" System from FW
Own Ruleset like the last one from FW, not a 9th Edition 40k adaption like many guess
Many new Plastic Sets are planned to replace FW Resin Models which will be also useful with 40k Armies
GW will overtake the Decals for all 18 Legions, Characteres and very Legion specific Stuff remains with FW
As a new Main System, Horus Heresy Story will expanded with Themed Expansions like the "Warzone" Books in 40k - the reboot beginns with the Battle for the Sol System, later they will revisit earlier "Warzones" like Istvaan III, Istvaan V, Prospero, Tallarn ect. with focus on certain Factions
Warzone Expansions replace the "Black Books" permanently
Horus Heresy is planned over many Years and will also Expanded into a "Age of Darkness" Game with multiple Setting, including the Scourge or the Great Crusade (see The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit as "Middleearth" SBG)
Eh, would be good if true, not putting a lot of stock in random Reddit rumours though. The box we’ve seen being a limited edition launch box is pretty much a given at this point though.
GW will overtake Horus Heresy as a "new" System from FW
If it means continued support, Great!
Own Ruleset like the last one from FW, not a 9th Edition 40k adaption like many guess
Stick with the adapted 7th rules. Nothing "Bespoke" please.
Many new Plastic Sets are planned to replace FW Resin Models which will be also useful with 40k Armies
More plastics is exactly what the game needs.
GW will overtake the Decals for all 18 Legions, Characteres and very Legion specific Stuff remains with FW
As long as they stay in stock, fantastic.
As a new Main System, Horus Heresy Story will expanded with Themed Expansions like the "Warzone" Books in 40k - the reboot beginns with the Battle for the Sol System, later they will revisit earlier "Warzones" like Istvaan III, Istvaan V, Prospero, Tallarn ect. with focus on certain Factions
Hmmm... Not instilling a whole lot of confidence here. All i'm seeing from this is the sort of bloat the has plagued 8th and 9th.
Warzone Expansions replace the "Black Books" permanently
Nah.. No thanks.
Horus Heresy is planned over many Years and will also Expanded into a "Age of Darkness" Game with multiple Setting, including the Scourge or the Great Crusade (see The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit as "Middleearth" SBG)
A Great Crusade style expansion with Xenos and non-Imperium Humans would be cool.
Yeah, I wouldn't trust any of those rumors. Its a reddit newbie that never commented or posted about 40k or anything GW related until a few days ago, and then suddenly they are just posting random unsourced rumors like they are giving away free candy.
The rumors sound like a a 50/50 mix of common sense/educated guesswork and wishlisting.
Indeed. Looking through the list, a lot of these are probably easy guesses in that this is the most likely direction of travel and the rumour peddler hasn't got a scooby.
Was Faeit gone for a while? That used to be my number 1 rumor site like a decade ago. Then I stopped seeing it, until last week where its popping up again
Shadow Walker wrote: Wishful thinking, made up nonsense etc. Sounds like nafka, BoLS etc.
A lot of this sounds similar to what the Eye of Horus Podcast guys heard rumored late last year as well, especially the part about the black books being replaced with more frequent updates sort of Necromunda-style.
Yeah, I wouldn't trust any of those rumors. Its a reddit newbie that never commented or posted about 40k or anything GW related until a few days ago, and then suddenly they are just posting random unsourced rumors like they are giving away free candy.
Reddit newbie doesn't necessarily mean anything. I don't want to get too "conspiracy theory" here, but there's always a non-zero chance that GW themselves had someone on a social media team post these rumors in order to keep up excitement for upcoming releases. That said, "a little bird twittered" annoys the heck out of me - if you're gonna post that you got these rumors from someone tweeting, the least you could do is screenshot or link the actual tweets. At this point the reddit post is secondhand rumors from an already secondhand source.
On the rumors themselves: A lot of this ties into what the Eye of Horus Podcast guys heard late last year about the changes coming to 30K. At the time, nothing panned out because nothing ever came of it - it wasn't until a couple weeks that it even looked like anything new was happening with HH at all.
I'd be ok with these supposed "Warzone" books, but also very much like the black books to continue being a thing. They're beautiful editions that look great on a shelf and are awesome to dive into for inspiration. It helps that FW goes all out with fully illustrated interiors, that faux leather cover, etc. They're absolutely worth the price. Going by that, getting Warzone books on a regular basis would be awesome, and then ideally FW could still also do black books but maybe on a less frequent schedule? I know that the last few have taken a while between books, but in theory it looks like maybe FW and GW are starting to put more resources into 30k as well.
"Plastic sets to replace resin models" is kind of a no duh, it makes a lot of sense for them to release plastic versions of the most popular resin kits. Deimos tanks, Spartans, power armors of various types, and so on. I'd also love a Javelin land speeder in plastic.
"GW doing decals", cool. As long as they're the same high quality as the current Forge World ones, and will be available on a permanent basis.
"New edition" "it's own ruleset", etc. It's not going to be 9th, I think that should be obvious. If it were a 9th ed ruleset it would have released last year and timed similarly to the 40k rules being updated.
Here I'd very much want it to stay very similar to the Age of Darkness rules(being based on 7th ed), and previous rumors have mentioned some tweaks, like Dreadnoughts getting wounds and Toughness rather than hull points - things like this make sense to me. I'd rather not have it be a brand new ruleset built from the ground up.
"Age of Darkness game with multiple setting" doesn't mean much. Best way to do "multiple setting" would be to release sourcebooks for that setting. Put out an Imperial Armour-style book detailing The Scouring, or one for the Great Crusade. Wouldn't take much more than that.
It'd be a shame to do away with the big black books. They were sketching out a story, and were a good way of following the events of the HH without having to delve into Black Library's endless quagmire that is the Horus Heresy novel series, a series that got away from them about 80 books ago.
H.B.M.C. wrote: a series that got away from them about 80 books ago.
I was going to laugh at this, but then realised that (horrifically) you're right. There's like just shy of 200 Horus Heresy publications (not including collections/omnibus/etc)
Snrub wrote: I was going to laugh at this, but then realised that (horrifically) you're right. There's like just shy of 200 Horus Heresy publications (not including collections/omnibus/etc)
200? Holy gak man... I was lowballing it for fear of being too exaggerative.
H.B.M.C. wrote: a series that got away from them about 80 books ago.
I was going to laugh at this, but then realised that (horrifically) you're right. There's like just shy of 200 Horus Heresy publications (not including collections/omnibus/etc)
If they make the black books irrelevant, they never understood 30k to begin with. I don't play it for the fluff either, I play it because it's a much better game than what 40k has become. I don't know why they'd be in such a hurry to ruin it.
Crablezworth wrote: If they make the black books irrelevant, they never understood 30k to begin with. I don't play it for the fluff either, I play it because it's a much better game than what 40k has become. I don't know why they'd be in such a hurry to ruin it.
I really like my big black books and would hate to see them go away... they really are fantastic, bespoke collectors books that were well written and illustrated up until about book 7, which is when Alan Bligh passed away. Since then, the books have kinda floundered.
If they want to take them in smaller more practical bites like they've done with titanicus I'm all for it, they can still sell a sexed up leather bound special edition of the smaller books every new release. That is infinitely better than throwing everything out just to sell it to you in a worse form again.
A lot of this sounds similar to what the Eye of Horus Podcast guys heard rumored late last year as well, especially the part about the black books being replaced with more frequent updates sort of Necromunda-style.
So more or less like regular 40k then: books with a shelf life of six months, rinse, repeat, add new errors with every pass.
Because they're doing such a great work with Necromunda on that regard.
That same rumour monger has posted a bunch of other garbage rumours which he rapidly deleted, and has other predictions still extant including an IG codex in September (almost certainly not) etc. Not inclined to believe him unless he's just copying that list from somebody else
The rumours track with GW's current way of doing business, so I'm inclined to believe that it's either a good guess or true.
It's the DLCification of the hobby. Push gamers to buy countless individual releases, sometimes with near-worthless limited editions and cheaply made "collectors items" like overpriced dice.
, I think I stopped about book 35ish....