Pyrothem wrote: They brought Flayed Ones to 10 points in Kill Team. No rules adjustment. And they are just OK nothing to really get excited about. So even with a 58% point drop they are still just a meh. It is the rules and stats of the unit that is lacking.
If FO went to 10ppm I would actually start running 2* 10 man units as chaff around my (usual) Stalker, and see if we can wriggle for a Brigade at that point.
Elites have been stopping that for a very long time.... [At least in my own opinion]
They have all the same transport issues as Flayed Ones but can instantly kill Primaris on 2s to wound if you use the +1 strength strategem on the warscythe variant.
This entire conversation was borne of the Wraithguard vs. Flayed one issue. THAT is why we aren't comparing anything else. We could. But we aren't. So I'm fine with that discussion if you want to have it. But Flayed Ones create enormous wound pools. Wraiths do not. That was the point being made here.
Just so I have this straight, we shouldn't try and balance their points cost because "whelp, we have what they gave us"?
.
Pretending I said "we shouldnt try to balance their points cost" so you can attack me for it? Mmmm... Not very cool.
No one told you you shouldn't try. You just have no power to do so. And until you do? Yeah. It's what you have. The world of "should" doesn't exist. We are here, now, and this is the situation.
There is a rumor a new Illuminor szeras model may be released. Its supposed to have a 80mm base. I dont believe that, a 80mm base is pretty big. The model itself would have to be twice as big as the current szeras.
Or, as compared to 507 points of Flayed Ones plus Anrakyr, they're within a percent of each other. The Wraiths are SLIGHTLY more expensive, but also faster and more durable.
Except I forgot to factor in rerolls to hit, which gives us instead...
Making them significantly better than Flayed Ones at PMEQs, TEQs, and anything else multi-wound. They suffer a bit against single-wound models, dealing only about 2/3rds the damage, but with their greatly increased odds of making it, seems a worthy trade-off.
I like Flayed Ones, enough that I have been hunting down the original metal models to get a couple of full squads together. They are still massively over-costed against units with comparable capability. I'm not saying use them or don't, I'm always for making lists that work for you vs what the masses say you should take.
You should like Flayed Ones because they are very good. Glad to hear you're looking for them.
Necrons aren't really a melee army, as if that needed to be said, but as I told one of my newer players who has learned very quickly and plays Necrons, If you have no counterpunch against, say, RavenGuard, it's going to be a very tough game for you. If you have no way to swallow up the enormous shooting that some armies can muster, you could be victimized by the huge amount of Stratategms some armies can bring to bear. If you do not have a way to board control (ergo I use THREE units to board control), then you can have some problems against some forces. There are a multiplicity of reasons to like the Flayed Ones, that go beyind its ability to do 50 wounds.
Lycheguard are usually pointed at entirely different targets than Flayed Ones. they can get to 30 attacks the same way, hitting 20 times, wounding about 13 times (kill an entire Primaris Squad also) but they aren't able to do the other things the Flayed Ones do (take on single wound targets better, more board control, locking up more units). As elite (2 wound) killers they are roughly equal to Flayed Ones and less expensive. At doing anything else the Flayed Ones are good at, they are worse. They also lose the deployment options. Now there again you can sort of General around that but it just means less options. To be fair they are tougher than Flayed Ones as well, although that difference may or may not come to matter given We'll be Back rolls. But it's true. Way tougher and that is not nothing. I'd definitely take Lycheguard for a melee element if points are just too tight to take the Flayed Ones. They are right in the same category of good to me even though they are different and more limited (essentially you have to use a Plane or Monolith to get them there in mooost cases, but you can also walk them for maxcimum buff shenanigans depending on the board you get, aggression of the foe etc...)
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JNAProductions wrote: For 528 points, you get 11 Wraiths. Naked, but that's how they're typically best run. That gives us...
Or, as compared to 507 points of Flayed Ones plus Anrakyr, they're within a percent of each other. The Wraiths are SLIGHTLY more expensive, but also faster and more durable.
Except I forgot to factor in rerolls to hit, which gives us instead...
Making them significantly better than Flayed Ones at PMEQs, TEQs, and anything else multi-wound. They suffer a bit against single-wound models, dealing only about 2/3rds the damage, but with their greatly increased odds of making it, seems a worthy trade-off.
Again... Comparing incomparable things
Flayed ones are 340. Not 507. 11 Wraiths are 528. So. Maybe you should try again.
I like Flayed Ones, enough that I have been hunting down the original metal models to get a couple of full squads together. They are still massively over-costed against units with comparable capability. I'm not saying use them or don't, I'm always for making lists that work for you vs what the masses say you should take.
You should like Flayed Ones because they are very good. Glad to hear you're looking for them.
Necrons aren't really a melee army, as if that needed to be said, but as I told one of my newer players who has learned very quickly and plays Necrons, If you have no counterpunch against, say, RavenGuard, it's going to be a very tough game for you. If you have no way to swallow up the enormous shooting that some armies can muster, you could be victimized by the huge amount of Stratategms some armies can bring to bear. If you do not have a way to board control (ergo I use THREE units to board control), then you can have some problems against some forces. There are a multiplicity of reasons to like the Flayed Ones, that go beyind its ability to do 50 wounds.
Lycheguard are usually pointed at entirely different targets than Flayed Ones. they can get to 30 attacks the same way, hitting 20 times, wounding about 13 times (kill an entire Primaris Squad also) but they aren't able to do the other things the Flayed Ones do (take on single wound targets better, more board control, locking up more units). As elite (2 wound) killers they are roughly equal to Flayed Ones and less expensive. At doing anything else the Flayed Ones are good at, they are worse. They also lose the deployment options. Now there again you can sort of General around that but it just means less options. To be fair they are tougher than Flayed Ones as well, although that difference may or may not come to matter given We'll be Back rolls. But it's true. Way tougher and that is not nothing. I'd definitely take Lycheguard for a melee element if points are just too tight to take the Flayed Ones. They are right in the same category of good to me even though they are different and more limited (essentially you have to use a Plane or Monolith to get them there in mooost cases, but you can also walk them for maxcimum buff shenanigans depending on the board you get, aggression of the foe etc...)
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JNAProductions wrote: For 528 points, you get 11 Wraiths. Naked, but that's how they're typically best run. That gives us...
Or, as compared to 507 points of Flayed Ones plus Anrakyr, they're within a percent of each other. The Wraiths are SLIGHTLY more expensive, but also faster and more durable.
Except I forgot to factor in rerolls to hit, which gives us instead...
Making them significantly better than Flayed Ones at PMEQs, TEQs, and anything else multi-wound. They suffer a bit against single-wound models, dealing only about 2/3rds the damage, but with their greatly increased odds of making it, seems a worthy trade-off.
Again... Comparing incomparable things
Flayed ones are 340. Not 507. 11 Wraiths are 528. So. Maybe you should try again.
I think he's including the cost of Anrakyr the traveller, since your maths reiies on the extra attacks he brings.
p5freak wrote: There is a rumor a new Illuminor szeras model may be released. Its supposed to have a 80mm base. I dont believe that, a 80mm base is pretty big. The model itself would have to be twice as big as the current szeras.
Odd choice for the first of our HQ's to upgrade from Finecast, but I'm down for him getting a serious buff. Guessing he'll get a hefty rules upgrade to go with it.
6 Wraiths is 288 points. They move 12"+1d6", then charge 2d6". Average threat range of 22.5", but can be increased with a CP reroll or two if needed. They can very possibly get a T1 charge, survive the counterpunch, and charge again T2. No outside buffing characters needed.
20 Flayed Ones is 340 points. They cannot charge T1, because they're either in Deep Strike or too slow to make it across the field. Meaning they don't do damage till T2. They also die way easier.
Wraiths have just over a 1/4 chance of making it 25" T1 with Adaptive Subroutines. Flayed Ones have a similar chance of making the charge from Deep Strike. So, if you assume they charge T2, the Wraiths can get a T1 charge. Only the Wraiths have TWO chances to CP a low roll, meaning they can have better odds.
I think he's including the cost of Anrakyr the traveller, since your maths reiies on the extra attacks he brings.
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He's cheating. ALL units are what they are. You dont get more of them to make your comparisons. So. You compare 340 points of Flayed ones to 340 in Wraithguard. We can assume the ehnanigans are o nthem of course. But those shenanigans are not part of the unit. So lets lay off the moving goal posts here..
Well...a FAIR comparison is you know...assumed to be the order of the day, friend. Lol. I already pointed out that you can get 7 or so Wraiths for the same cost. Which is fair to say.
6 Wraiths is 288 points. They move 12"+1d6", then charge 2d6". Average threat range of 22.5", but can be increased with a CP reroll or two if needed. They can very possibly get a T1 charge, survive the counterpunch, and charge again T2. No outside buffing characters needed.
20 Flayed Ones is 340 points. They cannot charge T1, because they're either in Deep Strike or too slow to make it across the field. Meaning they don't do damage till T2. They also die way easier.
Wraiths have just over a 1/4 chance of making it 25" T1 with Adaptive Subroutines. Flayed Ones have a similar chance of making the charge from Deep Strike. So, if you assume they charge T2, the Wraiths can get a T1 charge. Only the Wraiths have TWO chances to CP a low roll, meaning they can have better odds.
You are forgetting what I told you at the beginngin or you chose to ignore it. Let me repeat it: At their job, the Flayed Ones do it better (meaning melee wound productions.
A ALSO clearly told you that the reasons people like Wraiths are the other things they do ASIDE from killing. And you've made my point there as well.
I didn't really need the math lesson. A turn one charge is essentially almost never happening but sure. POSSIBLE. Probable? Depends on how little the enemy knows. Also depends on turn one. So... probably not an advantage I would claim here. But still cool. Yes.
Also, 7 Wraiths aren't going to kill 10 Primaris. They just aren't. Assuming they will survive to see another round is also problematic.
Did you miss the math that indicates that Flayed Ones fail to kill anything more than a 6-man squad of Intercessors, while Wraiths kill 8?
Did you miss how you have mostly the same odds of making a T1 charge with Wraiths as you do charging Flayed Ones out of Deep Strike? (Flayed Ones have 27.78% chance as compared to Wraith's 25.93% chance, with no CP rerolls on anyone.)
Edit: I suppose you could say that the opponent will just deploy far back in their DZ if you have Wraiths... Which is an advantage for you. You can claim more board control then. Whereas Flayed Ones in Deep Strike will have the opponent actively looking to claim more board control.
JNAProductions wrote: Did you miss the math that indicates that Flayed Ones fail to kill anything more than a 6-man squad of Intercessors, while Wraiths kill 8?
Did you miss how you have mostly the same odds of making a T1 charge with Wraiths as you do charging Flayed Ones out of Deep Strike? (Flayed Ones have 27.78% chance as compared to Wraith's 25.93% chance, with no CP rerolls on anyone.)
JNAProductions wrote: Did you miss the math that indicates that Flayed Ones fail to kill anything more than a 6-man squad of Intercessors, while Wraiths kill 8?
Did you miss how you have mostly the same odds of making a T1 charge with Wraiths as you do charging Flayed Ones out of Deep Strike? (Flayed Ones have 27.78% chance as compared to Wraith's 25.93% chance, with no CP rerolls on anyone.)
JNAProductions wrote: Did you miss the math that indicates that Flayed Ones fail to kill anything more than a 6-man squad of Intercessors, while Wraiths kill 8?
Did you miss how you have mostly the same odds of making a T1 charge with Wraiths as you do charging Flayed Ones out of Deep Strike? (Flayed Ones have 27.78% chance as compared to Wraith's 25.93% chance, with no CP rerolls on anyone.)
It is incorrect.
How? How is it wrong? Show me the numbers.
You seem capable.
Your turn one charge scenario is pretty implausible. You're giving yourself 29 out of 33 hits. Not going to happen, so there's that. You will have 7, not 11 Wraiths for 340. Etc...
7 Wraiths have 21 attacks.
18.67 hits
12.44 wounds
8.30 unsaved D2 wounds against MEQs
20 Flayed Ones have 60 attacks
53.33 hits
40 wounds
13.33 unsaved D1 wounds against MEQs
They do significantly better against one-wound Marines, but suck in comparison to the more common Primaris.
This is the math, under your parameters. 7 Wraiths versus 20 Flayed Ones.
29/33 hits is an 8/9 hit rate, WS 3+ with rerolls.
And why is it any more implausible than getting Flayed Ones MWBD, a successful charge, and in range of Anrakyr?
Well you clearly havent been paying attention to what I've been telling you. Le sigh.
Okay sir. For the one hundredth time, the Flayed Ones are actually getting 80 attacks in our example. Posted my list. Explained that. Don't know what you're missing here. You can actually get them to 90 in theory but as i said, that isnt how MY list works.
Second: you're saying they charge turn 1. Anrakyr cant grant them +1 to attacks in turn one, because they have to be within 3" when the attacks happen. He wont be if you are charging turn one. Only his My Will be Done is granted at start of turn 1.
Third: 7 Wraiths therefore get 21 attacks, hitting on 2's.
Adjust your math accordingly. After you do, get back to me. You will find that the Flayed Ones are messing those Primaris up. If you're up against far more conventional enemies, it's even better.
I don't mind having this discussion but you can't ignore your own rules here. You're positing the greatness of the turn one charge. Okay fine, we look at it. Represent it correctly. If turn 2, its even more unlikely that the Wraiths will have the support as you've made clear you're advancing turn one, so you're only hope is the Veil of Darknes to bring Anrakyr in, which is also fine but in your view, every cost of running the unit is a cost you count! So by YOUR rules that's more expense yet! I don't agree, so I'd be fine with the Veil being in the list to do just this. Only trouble is you have to trail back UP TO 6.01 inches... And that does limit your attacks potentially. We'd have to see the field to decide that but it;s got to be considered.
You've made clear the enemy doesn't foresee it, and you have made clear that the halo in front has been cleared. No problem there. Not probably. Just possible. Also you'd need two units of Wraiths to get to 7, so there are actually two charges to make. oops...
So I get the point you wish to make. Just be fair about it.
This is why I stressed in the writeup the deployment. It's important to give your forces time to clear the landing zone and control the board.
7 Wraiths (lets be fair and pretend they ALL make it, both charges!): 21 attacks. 17.5 hits. 11.67 wounds. 9.72 unsaved. 336 points.
Very fair comparison. You lose a TON of wounds with the Wraiths, as you can see. You don't have Re-animation without Stratagems. You don't REALLY have a reliable way to avoid damage from the shooting beforehand (as I suspect you will always be in the open for at least a round, charge or no charge). You are more affected BY damage before/after you charge because one Wraith is more than 3 times the cost of Flayed Ones and multiwound damage weapons are literally EVERYWHERE.
Dunno where you got the 85% from, but it's obviously wrong. The fun with Wraiths is that against an elite target (tanks, primaris,whatever) they gain... 2.77 TOTAL wounds! MAYBE one extra Primris? Maybe? So the Flayed Ones are better. They take down the same targets, are tied in melee afterwards and are way better at taking down other types and recovering their fighting strength. Cover more board. Deploy more ways.
I enjoy reading through the different styles of CC necrons have at their disposal. But I really need to say, claiming which one is better is seriously irrelevant. There are too many conditions on what your opponent has, how they've deployed and what army they're running.
There are also the factors on what you want to achieve when getting into CC. Are you trying to kill the unit? Trap them? Limit their movement?
For my playstyle, when looking at our 3 CC units, Lychguard, Flayed Ones and Wraiths, I will opt for Wraiths when list building for tournaments.
Marines are at the top of the food chain now. So my priority and expectancy is that I will play against them. Ideally I want something small and efficient at wiping out units of 5 Primaris, or at least wrapping the remaining models. Wraiths have the great ability of falling out of combat and charging other units which I believe is something to be highly considered. This ability imo is one of the best things Wraiths have at causing a big concern for your opponent.
Currently, Marines have very effective ways of countering Deep Strike, or even just placing scouts behind ruins with more than an inch from the wall. It's a problem for any Deep Strike that has nothing to buff the charge distance. Wraiths don't care about that. They just Advance and Charge.
Point changes will change a lot of things ofcourse, but for now Wraiths are definitely my go-to unit.
p5freak wrote: There is a rumor a new Illuminor szeras model may be released. Its supposed to have a 80mm base. I dont believe that, a 80mm base is pretty big. The model itself would have to be twice as big as the current szeras.
torblind wrote: Did you miss that Flayed Ones dropped from 4 to 3 attacks ages ago?
It's still being randomly dropped as a benefit by the one person that doesn't know what they're talking about. It's also clear they don't know what they're talking about simply because of forgetting super basic interactions in the army (The Traveler can't travel) and not actually bringing in anything new for discussion we haven't gone over since we got the codex.
JNAProductions wrote: How do you get 80 Attacks? Flayed Ones are 3 attacks. If you're using a Stratagem I forgot, please, remind me.
And the 85% is 6 Wraiths compared to 20 Flayed Ones.
Just add him to your ignore list already. The guy clearly does not want to discuss things honestly, he keeps re-framing the debate every time he is required to explain his reasoning with facts. It's like trying to get a straight answer from a politician lol.
elook wrote: I enjoy reading through the different styles of CC necrons have at their disposal. But I really need to say, claiming which one is better is seriously irrelevant. There are too many conditions on what your opponent has, how they've deployed and what army they're running.
There are also the factors on what you want to achieve when getting into CC. Are you trying to kill the unit? Trap them? Limit their movement?
For my playstyle, when looking at our 3 CC units, Lychguard, Flayed Ones and Wraiths, I will opt for Wraiths when list building for tournaments.
For me I want cc unit that can do T1 charge(nephrek wraiths have been adept at that with max advance and charge) and then force enemy to deal with them or they will be tagging tanks etc. Wraiths have been okayish on this style. Fairly reliable T1 charge and ability to bypass screens etc makes tagging tanks easier. And they seem to attract reasonable number of firepower as long as there's no leman russ punisher type of thing out there(guess which tank I will usually try to blow up first!) to go through the 3++ by sheer numbers.
Lychguard has been 2nd choice as with WL trait and veil they can do it but they have been failing more of T1 charges and 4++ and W2 makes them less survivable. Plus eats up warlord, his trait and relic giving also often enough easy slay the warlord. Also lot less killy than the wraith.
Flayed ones fail on lack of T1 charge and lack of reliable charge before T3 after sitting out there for a turn.
Not as competive as more guns either way but sometimes I want to try change of pace when I play game that's not as competive as die hard tournaments. Been having surprising amount of success in these semi competive games.
They are very cheap now. Maybe enough to field them just for the bodies that will be tough to shift
20 pts is bang on the money. certainly worth considering. Excited to see what else we get, article says "thorough revisions". Nothing will fix our issues, but some stopgaps will be appreciated even if it just adds a bit more variety in what we can bring.
IanVanCheese wrote: 20 pts is bang on the money. certainly worth considering. Excited to see what else we get, article says "thorough revisions". Nothing will fix our issues, but some stopgaps will be appreciated even if it just adds a bit more variety in what we can bring.
Yeah, just having to reconsider options is refreshing at least. As usual, i would prefer them to provide something unique to the army and be more "Elite", but ultimately i'll take a point reduction.
IanVanCheese wrote: 20 pts is bang on the money. certainly worth considering. Excited to see what else we get, article says "thorough revisions". Nothing will fix our issues, but some stopgaps will be appreciated even if it just adds a bit more variety in what we can bring.
Yeah, just having to reconsider options is refreshing at least. As usual, i would prefer them to provide something unique to the army and be more "Elite", but ultimately i'll take a point reduction.
Hopefully Lychguard get another drop to stay in line with them. Praetorians are niche, but 22pt Lychguard is something I'd seriously consider spamming.
IanVanCheese wrote: 20 pts is bang on the money. certainly worth considering. Excited to see what else we get, article says "thorough revisions". Nothing will fix our issues, but some stopgaps will be appreciated even if it just adds a bit more variety in what we can bring.
Yeah, just having to reconsider options is refreshing at least. As usual, i would prefer them to provide something unique to the army and be more "Elite", but ultimately i'll take a point reduction.
Hopefully Lychguard get another drop to stay in line with them. Praetorians are niche, but 22pt Lychguard is something I'd seriously consider spamming.
IanVanCheese wrote: 20 pts is bang on the money. certainly worth considering. Excited to see what else we get, article says "thorough revisions". Nothing will fix our issues, but some stopgaps will be appreciated even if it just adds a bit more variety in what we can bring.
Yeah, just having to reconsider options is refreshing at least. As usual, i would prefer them to provide something unique to the army and be more "Elite", but ultimately i'll take a point reduction.
Hopefully Lychguard get another drop to stay in line with them. Praetorians are niche, but 22pt Lychguard is something I'd seriously consider spamming.
Darsath wrote: Deceiver down to 180 points. I suspect the Nighbringer and other C'tan will see reductions as well, since the Deceiver is the most usable of them.
Yeah just saw that. Nightbringer down near 150 might make him interesting? Hoping the Vault comes back down too.
p5freak wrote: Even at 20ppm praets arent very useful. No synergy, they are on their own. No teleport, no transport.
They don't need a transport or teleporting, they jump everywhere...
I'll grant you the no synergy. They get the funky Strat for themselves and that's literally it.
Alas 10" isn't enough for T1 charge.Especially as no advance+charge option. And if they try to cross the field they face firepower and likely gets vaporized. So 200-220 pts distraction carnifex
I think the bigger issue with Praetorians is that they have no good targets. 1 Damage and 2 Attacks without any synergy is just a terrible rate at this point in 8th.
p5freak wrote: Even at 20ppm praets arent very useful. No synergy, they are on their own. No teleport, no transport.
They don't need a transport or teleporting, they jump everywhere...
I'll grant you the no synergy. They get the funky Strat for themselves and that's literally it.
Alas 10" isn't enough for T1 charge.Especially as no advance+charge option. And if they try to cross the field they face firepower and likely gets vaporized. So 200-220 pts distraction carnifex
Honestly, at 20pts a model they're the cheapest wounds versus pts infantry we have access to. Might be worth it just for sitting on flank objectives with, counter charging anything that approaches. They don't need to stay with the main force since no synegies anyway. Anyway yeah they're not amazing by any stretch at 20pts, but still interesting enough too consider.
p5freak wrote: Even at 20ppm praets arent very useful. No synergy, they are on their own. No teleport, no transport.
They don't need a transport or teleporting, they jump everywhere...
I'll grant you the no synergy. They get the funky Strat for themselves and that's literally it.
Alas 10" isn't enough for T1 charge.Especially as no advance+charge option. And if they try to cross the field they face firepower and likely gets vaporized. So 200-220 pts distraction carnifex
It's enough for it sometimes and a T2 charge is okay for the price. They're now 10 points per T5 3+ wound. That's not bad for durability outside D2 weapons.
p5freak wrote: Even at 20ppm praets arent very useful. No synergy, they are on their own. No teleport, no transport.
They don't need a transport or teleporting, they jump everywhere...
I'll grant you the no synergy. They get the funky Strat for themselves and that's literally it.
Alas 10" isn't enough for T1 charge.Especially as no advance+charge option. And if they try to cross the field they face firepower and likely gets vaporized. So 200-220 pts distraction carnifex
It's enough for it sometimes and a T2 charge is okay for the price. They're now 10 points per T5 3+ wound. That's not bad for durability outside D2 weapons.
From both a points per wound and points per shot at 12”... it feels awkward that our cheapest (best?) option is a Praetorian over any of our troop choices.
Alas d2 weapons are so numerous that my lychguard gets vaporized in an heartbeat unless I'm rolling 4++ hot. And these guys don't have even 6++ let alone 4++...
Love the model. Last thing I did in seventh was to get the full Judicator Battalion (?) 2*10 praetorian and the stalker. Only to shelf them for 8th.will definitely take them for a spin.
A turn 2+ onwards harassment unit could certainly fill a function. Wraiths dart a head, charge. Praetorians follow suit, finishing any stragglers the wraiths leave in their tracks.
I'm joining an escalation league and I think I'm going to try running my Necrons.
Any thoughts on this as a reasonable 500 point starting list?
Some notes: I have to take my warlord+trait for the rest of the league and there are no named characters allowed. However every game we will be rolling for an upgrade to our warlord so I want to take something that might be able to benefit from extra strength, toughness, attacks, and the like.
My goal with the list was to have a decent number of infantry to benefit from RP, morale immunity (will benefit me more later on), destroyers to be able to punch up a bit if somebody brings vehicles, and a triarch stalker because I love the model.
I debated dropping the stalker and the warriors for a MSU Tesla Immortals squad and a DDA but I'm not sure if I'll need the DDA initially.
I'm also debating taking Sautekh and that warlord trait instead of Nephrekh.
Slaul wrote: I debated dropping the stalker and the warriors for a MSU Tesla Immortals squad and a DDA but I'm not sure if I'll need the DDA initially.
I love the DDA. In smaller game sure the big gun might not get much AT role but pay attention to the gaus flayers. Actually even in bigger games I like using DDA as floating assault wagon floating around throwing 20 S4 -1 shots and then the main gun. Surprisingly useful.
Too bad there's no ark with just gauss flayers and nothing special. Ghost ark without repair function and cheaper!
IMO the stalker is too much at this level though. Would take more bodies. And 12 warriors is annoyingly soft target even at 500 pts.
Slaul wrote: I debated dropping the stalker and the warriors for a MSU Tesla Immortals squad and a DDA but I'm not sure if I'll need the DDA initially.
I love the DDA. In smaller game sure the big gun might not get much AT role but pay attention to the gaus flayers. Actually even in bigger games I like using DDA as floating assault wagon floating around throwing 20 S4 -1 shots and then the main gun. Surprisingly useful.
Too bad there's no ark with just gauss flayers and nothing special. Ghost ark without repair function and cheaper!
IMO the stalker is too much at this level though. Would take more bodies. And 12 warriors is annoyingly soft target even at 500 pts.
Would it be worth dropping the stalker and the destroyers for a DDA and maxing the warriors to 20?
Or maybe switch to Sautekh, drop the warriors for a 10 man squad of tesla immortals, drop the stalker, drop the destroyers, and add a DDA and 3 tomb blades with tesla.
Slaul wrote: Or maybe switch to Sautekh, drop the warriors for a 10 man squad of tesla immortals, drop the stalker, drop the destroyers, and add a DDA and 3 tomb blades with tesla.
Apart from sautekh(I'm nephrek all the way. Ability to quarantee T1 shooting most of the time with immortals(6" advance makes it easier even vs way back deployments) and general ability to reach various places is so handy for my playstyle) that's pretty much the list I went with in 500 pts round for our slow grow league. 10 tesla guys, overlord, dda, 3 tomb blades. Don't recall did I have cryptek. Probably not.
Won vs death korps of krieg. In large due to that dda floating around vaporizing infantry left and right.
sieGermans wrote: Could the Praetorian price drop be a hint of more Dynasty-relevant support (from which Triarch units won’t benefit—hence needing a buff)?
I think you're reading too much into it. GW likely just saw that literally nobody is running them.
What else is on people's wishlists (pts drops only since it's Chapter Approved)? Mine are...
Monolith down to 220 pts (100 pt drop seems huge, but I still don't think it'd be an auto-include. Just aggressively priced. It's still just a slightly tougher Leman Russ with some tricks that never work)
Flayed Ones down to 10 pts (7pt drop. In line with Kill Team. Again, would just make them viable, not amazing).
Ghost Arks down to 125 pts (20 pt drop. For only 15pts more you can get a DDA. It's ludicrous, especially when it can only carry warriors)
Lychguard down to 22 pts (In line with Praetorians. Would actually make them interesting, especially as sniper protection).
Tesseract Vault back to 496 (it should never have been nerfed. It wasn't overpowered, it was just the only good unit we had at the time).
sieGermans wrote: Could the Praetorian price drop be a hint of more Dynasty-relevant support (from which Triarch units won’t benefit—hence needing a buff)?
Dunno, if we get the aeldari treatment, aka build your dynasty, i don't think it will change much. Depends on the traits themselves really, the Stealthy & Master Artisan would be nuts, but when you see the Craftworld, or worse, Kabal ones, it's not as much a game changer.
Losing our Dynastry traits are not that hard but but Sautekh is quite good enough to be the glue that hold, for me, a lot together (doomscythes, methodical destruction, CP regen, imothek).
If we get the CSM treatment, it would be better, i really like what they done for some of the legions. I understands why chaos players still feels like worse SM (no trait on vehicules, ...), but the quality of the warlord traits/relics/stratagems was pretty good, and far more interesting than what they done in PA1 imho.
I'm very curious of what Tyrannids will get. They seems to have a 'build your hive fleets', but also have some stratagems, relics, and a new mechanic (Adaptive Physiology, per the warhammer community article). Maybe we will see that kind of stuff.
I still think that for the praetorians, and for all faction-trait-less units across factions, GW has not clue. They designed a 8th edition based on combos, and these units don't mesh in this system. So they drop the point until stats alone will be enough to justify them.
I think the units most likely to see changes would be:
Annihilation Barge
Warriors
Flayed Ones
Lord
Monolith
Night Scythe
Praetorians (confirmed)
C'tan Shards (Deceiver is confirmed, so it's likely that all will)
I'm sorry but I don't understand why Crypteks are over 50 pts (SoL included)? Their stat line is abysmal for a faction known for their toughness. I would like to see Wraiths down 6pts, Lord down 10 pts, TB's down 3-4 points, Lychguard down 6 pts, Warriors down 1-2 pts, FO's down 5 pts, Spyders down 10 pts, Transcendent C'tan down 20 pts, Anrakyr 20-40 pts and Crypteks down 40 pts. Obviously, this wont fix our problems but then there's PA that could give us a more definitive boost.
Darsath wrote: I think the units most likely to see changes would be:
Annihilation Barge
Warriors
Flayed Ones
Lord
Monolith
Night Scythe
Praetorians (confirmed)
C'tan Shards (Deceiver is confirmed, so it's likely that all will)
I'd certainly add Cryptek, Overlords, Canoptek Spider and perhaps Heavy Destroyers to that too
torblind wrote: Did you miss that Flayed Ones dropped from 4 to 3 attacks ages ago?
As explained, there's two ways to add to their attacks. Both Anrakyr (Lord of the Pyrrhian Legions) and Big Z (Transient Madness) can add to attacks. Both. I pointed out that I wasn't doing it that way but that meant up to 5 attacks a guy.
And now you're caught up, so Slayer-Fan can stop being a jerk. Or not.
I hope GW rounds pts off on expensive models so they cost 570 instead of 567. I'm getting a lot more optimistic after learning CSM are 11 pts/model, that seems very fair with how much they are missing from SM. A roughly 20% reduction on Triarch Praetorians and a pts distinction between the clearly better and clearly worse weapon option is amazing. I don't think I'll proxy mine as void blades anymore.
I wanted nerfs, but I'm happy we're probably not getting many of those since SM are as powerful as they are. Maybe Teslamortals or Imotekh is getting nerfed, it'll be interesting to see. If the Vault gets a reduction I could see myself taking it with the 180 pt Deceiver. Wishlist below:
torblind wrote: Did you miss that Flayed Ones dropped from 4 to 3 attacks ages ago?
As explained, there's two ways to add to their attacks. Both Anrakyr (Lord of the Pyrrhian Legions) and Big Z (Transient Madness) can add to attacks. Both. I pointed out that I wasn't doing it that way but that meant up to 5 attacks a guy.
And now you're caught up, so Slayer-Fan can stop being a jerk. Or not.
That's gak, you can't count a 1/3 chance of getting +1 attack as them just having +1 attack. Didn't you also say your new list doesn't use Obyron? Do you still use Sautekh Flayed Ones with Zahndrekh?
Not to mention with transient madness the flayed ones are coming from deep strike(that or you are even worse off footslogging and being bombarded) so aren't easily in range. And in any case not on the turn they come and next round they are dead.
tneva82 wrote: Not to mention with transient madness the flayed ones are coming from deep strike(that or you are even worse off footslogging and being bombarded) so aren't easily in range. And in any case not on the turn they come and next round they are dead.
So sure if opponent plays like total idiot
I covered that in my entry. But as for HOW they got that many attacks, it isn't really a big surprise.
The "only if your opponent is an idiot" thing is just... Look. Your job, WITH EVERY UNIT, is to figure out the puzzle of how to deliver the goods. and EVERY opponent is going to TRY and stop you. and theyt will USUALLY succeed to SOME extent.
Those are obvious things.
Having said how obvious those things are, I have still answered the question. You ABSOLUTELY can do this, while he tries to stop you. I cannot sit here and play the stupid "well Centurions must be bad because I can wipe them out with X" game. That's just wasting everyones time.
So please don't start with the "if your opponent is an idiot" thing because by THAT measure, every "cool unit" is doomed. Lol. Someone will "see it and kill it" if you're to be believed.
The reality is that Slayer-Fan was just flat wrong. He reads the rules for drek if he thinks that there's "just no way" you can get 4 attacks on Flayed Ones. Hell, you can get 5.
And if you think that people are going to be given the fredom to ignore EVERYTHING else in favor of the Flayed Ones, you can assume that. My Destroyers and Tomb blades are fine with it. So are the fast moving Swarms. I mean... Right?
All I've done is outlinie how i do it. I outlined WHAT it CAN do. I have thrown all the necessary disclaimers on it. Necrons aren't winning the next NOVA with this or any build. That's just life.
But given that you still want to play Necrons... this is vey far from the worst you can do. Flayed Ones are really efficient at pumping out wounds. More efficient than Wraiths. I showed you that the Wraiths really only shine when facing multi-wound models, but that they also lose that ability a lot faster than Flayed Ones. It's not their fault. it's just that there is a huge multi-damage meta going on now I see it CONSTANTLY in competitvie play: Vanguard veterans, Executioner tanks, Tau Riptides, Heavy versions of weapons, stratagems that cause it, native d6 weapons have totally proliferated i nMarine lists because they should, and the list goes on.
So here again GIVEN you want a melee aspect to the list AT ALL... and we're going to assume that... Then the Flayed Ones do it well. it will be a turn 2 or even 3 play. That's okay. contracry to popular beief you dont always have to kill everything round 1 to win.Sometimes its just holding the field long enough. Thats why the board control is the focus of the list I posted.
That's gak, you can't count a 1/3 chance of getting +1 attack as them just having +1 attack. Didn't you also say your new list doesn't use Obyron? Do you still use Sautekh Flayed Ones with Zahndrekh?
I don't use Obyron currently. I have though.
This discussion has vacillated between both characters that can do it, so understand that. and it isnt 1/3. You can re-roll that die. 2 of the 3 are good for the charge phase so its no lose really. The 80 was a number I pointed out because you can do it either way (and actually you can do more than 80).
Anrakyr is the most reliable way but Big Z does it also. and they could BOTH do it. For some reason, Slayer-Fan and others have forgotten that. Which is cool. While stating emphatically that it cant be done. Hilarious.
The "only if your opponent is an idiot" thing is just... Look. Your job, WITH EVERY UNIT, is to figure out the puzzle of how to deliver the goods. and EVERY opponent is going to TRY and stop you. and theyt will USUALLY succeed to SOME extent.
So. You just have to march them for couple turns being bombarded and opponent not bother to shoot them to death. Yeah aint' happening.
Alternatively come out of deepstrike, succeed in 28% charge and NEXT turn get the +1A 33% times.
Lol. The mere fact you are relying on 33% buff tells everything people need to know. You don't rely on tactics or playing good. Just rolling good.
If you footslog opponent can easily kill those slow soft targets with spare guns. If you deep strike you can't even use that buff. Or are you cheating by using the +1A roll after deep strikers have come?
Your suggestions just plain suck and are wrong. But go ahead. Go and win tournaments with flayed ones if you are so sure. Put your money where your mouth is. If you can't do that you just prove you are all mouth and no ability to back it up
The "only if your opponent is an idiot" thing is just... Look. Your job, WITH EVERY UNIT, is to figure out the puzzle of how to deliver the goods. and EVERY opponent is going to TRY and stop you. and theyt will USUALLY succeed to SOME extent.
So. You just have to march them for couple turns being bombarded and opponent not bother to shoot them to death. Yeah aint' happening.
Alternatively come out of deepstrike, succeed in 28% charge and NEXT turn get the +1A 33% times.
Lol. The mere fact you are relying on 33% buff tells everything people need to know. You don't rely on tactics or playing good. Just rolling good.
If you footslog opponent can easily kill those slow soft targets with spare guns. If you deep strike you can't even use that buff. Or are you cheating by using the +1A roll after deep strikers have come?
This was about the comparisons between Wraiths and Flayed Ones. Not the enemy and what they are armed with. Lol.
This was really simple. IF you are GOING to have a melee element... the most efficient one IS the Flayed Ones. If you are. That was THE point. All this other stuff is window dressing, man.
What happens or doesnt happen in your pretend game is all good and well. I explained HOW to use them. I explained when you'd DS, when you wouldn't. I've answered all I can without a board in front of us.
Making this about anything beyond the comparison between Wraiths and Flayed Ones, which is the central point of the whole discussion isn't on me. No one is "relying" on anything. I'm telling you how to do it. Anrakyr is a more sure method so use him if you want to it makes no difference to me. My point was really simple: The Flayed Ones can do amazing damage and provide amaxing board control in comparison to any other tool you have (points changes are coming and will perhaps change that but we'll see)
Beyond that you can tell me how great Marines are all day. I'll agree with you AND EVERYTHING! But it doesnt change that the Flayed Ones are better than Wraiths. And if you don't prefer them, cool. I never claimed to have the monopoly on how to win. I just told you how to do it. You act like i kicked your puppy or something.
...But go ahead. Go and win tournaments with flayed ones if you are so sure. Put your money where your mouth is. If you can't do that you just prove you are all mouth and no ability to back it up
I think i told you pretty plainly that I won't be taking them to tournaments. What would be the point? i think we already covered the whole "not winning big events any time soon with Necrons". Cant seem to say that enough times. Maybe listen this time. This time.
Which is better voidblade and particle casters at 22 or rod of the covenant at 20? I'm leaning toward the rod because if I get in at all it's a success, mostly I'm assuming my Triarch Praetorians get destroyed with shooting.
tneva82 wrote: Not to mention with transient madness the flayed ones are coming from deep strike(that or you are even worse off footslogging and being bombarded) so aren't easily in range. And in any case not on the turn they come and next round they are dead.
So sure if opponent plays like total idiot
I covered that in my entry. But as for HOW they got that many attacks, it isn't really a big surprise.
The "only if your opponent is an idiot" thing is just... Look. Your job, WITH EVERY UNIT, is to figure out the puzzle of how to deliver the goods. and EVERY opponent is going to TRY and stop you. and theyt will USUALLY succeed to SOME extent.
Those are obvious things.
Having said how obvious those things are, I have still answered the question. You ABSOLUTELY can do this, while he tries to stop you. I cannot sit here and play the stupid "well Centurions must be bad because I can wipe them out with X" game. That's just wasting everyones time.
So please don't start with the "if your opponent is an idiot" thing because by THAT measure, every "cool unit" is doomed. Lol. Someone will "see it and kill it" if you're to be believed.
The reality is that Slayer-Fan was just flat wrong. He reads the rules for drek if he thinks that there's "just no way" you can get 4 attacks on Flayed Ones. Hell, you can get 5.
And if you think that people are going to be given the fredom to ignore EVERYTHING else in favor of the Flayed Ones, you can assume that. My Destroyers and Tomb blades are fine with it. So are the fast moving Swarms. I mean... Right?
All I've done is outlinie how i do it. I outlined WHAT it CAN do. I have thrown all the necessary disclaimers on it. Necrons aren't winning the next NOVA with this or any build. That's just life.
But given that you still want to play Necrons... this is vey far from the worst you can do. Flayed Ones are really efficient at pumping out wounds. More efficient than Wraiths. I showed you that the Wraiths really only shine when facing multi-wound models, but that they also lose that ability a lot faster than Flayed Ones. It's not their fault. it's just that there is a huge multi-damage meta going on now I see it CONSTANTLY in competitvie play: Vanguard veterans, Executioner tanks, Tau Riptides, Heavy versions of weapons, stratagems that cause it, native d6 weapons have totally proliferated i nMarine lists because they should, and the list goes on.
So here again GIVEN you want a melee aspect to the list AT ALL... and we're going to assume that... Then the Flayed Ones do it well. it will be a turn 2 or even 3 play. That's okay. contracry to popular beief you dont always have to kill everything round 1 to win.Sometimes its just holding the field long enough. Thats why the board control is the focus of the list I posted.
That's gak, you can't count a 1/3 chance of getting +1 attack as them just having +1 attack. Didn't you also say your new list doesn't use Obyron? Do you still use Sautekh Flayed Ones with Zahndrekh?
I don't use Obyron currently. I have though.
This discussion has vacillated between both characters that can do it, so understand that. and it isnt 1/3. You can re-roll that die. 2 of the 3 are good for the charge phase so its no lose really. The 80 was a number I pointed out because you can do it either way (and actually you can do more than 80).
Anrakyr is the most reliable way but Big Z does it also. and they could BOTH do it. For some reason, Slayer-Fan and others have forgotten that. Which is cool. While stating emphatically that it cant be done. Hilarious.
You keep on claiming that Flayed Ones are better than Wraiths and that they are a competitive option relative to our other melee units, saying that FOs aren't going to win any GTs is the understatement of the year, you can say the same thing about units that are a lot more pts efficient than FOs. What we're arguing is whether they are A, B, C or D tier, so which is it? I'd say C tier, firmly uncompetitive but not absolute trash.
It takes 17 lascannon hits or to destroy 20 Flayed Ones (the wonders of Morale).
It takes 33 lascannon hits to destroy 6 Wraiths. Now factor in cost and lascannons are twice as efficient against FOs than Wraiths.
If you stop adding attacks for free then it takes 108 pts of Flayed Ones to kill an Infantry Squad and 255 pts to kill 5 Intercessors.
It takes 288 pts and 120 pts to kill an Infantry Squad and 5 Intercessors respectively for Wraiths. Edit: not 120 pts, 270 pts.
Flayed Ones have nothing going for them that Warriors don't, Wraiths have speed and they can fall back and charge. Flayed Ones have one ok niche Stratagem against T8, Wraiths have one great Stratagem and another good one assuming you have a Cryptek. Walking Flayed Ones across the board with Zahndrekh is silly when you can take them as Novokh and get the same benefit as +1 Atk from the Code when you get nothing from the Sautekh code, in addition, you get a super strong Stratagem.
Saying that it's equally hard to get any unit into combat or saying that Wraiths don't have a meaningful advantage in this regard is silly. I have had success with running Warriors or Immortals into my opponent's lines and just being a bother, but why would I want Flayed Ones? Wraiths perform a radically different role which might make them worth taking, taking Flayed Ones is just for laughs and entirely uncompetitive.
You keep on claiming that Flayed Ones are better than Wraiths and that they are a competitive option relative to our other melee units, saying that FOs aren't going to win any GTs is the understatement of the year, you can say the same thing about units that are a lot more pts efficient than FOs. What we're arguing is whether they are A, B, C or D tier, so which is it? I'd say C tier, firmly uncompetitive but not absolute trash. .
It isnt about tiers. Its about the options you DO have. Bemoaning that someone has a better one is incredibly pointless and adds nothing to the discussion. We are assuming you want a melee element. Cant do anything about the enemy, that's going to be what it is. Can only deal with ours and in ours, we have for whatever reason decided to include a melee element, Tier Z or Tier A, who cares. We're doing it.
I'm going to ignore the rest because saying that stuff is like saying Warriors are great without character support. Lol. When you started talking about morale as a way to defend your position, ESPECIALLY because we are talking Wraiths getting their full attacks and Flayed Ones not? Umm... Are you even trying to be fair minded? If it comes to it, you spend the CP like everyone else does. if it wanst them it would have been another unit.
So look. IF the Wraiths get their attacks off, they do so in all likelihood turn two. More likely than not right? With an "intelligent opponent" assumed here, and no one WALKING into anyone's probable charges and blah blah blah...
Same for Flayed Ones, since we're giving everyone benefit of the doubt.
I did the math (see above). 7 Wraiths are inferior unless its a multiwound model and then it depends on how many wounds (2 is optimal, 3 puts the Wraiths right back into 2nd place, 1 also does). So they are EXACTLY better at killing 2-wound models by mere...assuming all goes WELL for them... 2.77 wounds. That's it! ONLY those!
Flayed Ones, optimally again, do better against all other targets and do GREAT against the same targets. I mean weird right? only 4 points separate the 7 wraiths from the 20 Flayed Ones. Effectively zero difference. same number of wounds basically but one has 3++, the other regenerates. One is susceptible to multi-wound weapons, one isn't but loses more attacks (but then they can afford to lose more). Law of large numbers favors the Flayed Ones also making it more likely to reach average performance. MUCH less swingy than the Wraiths. And the see-saw goes back and forth.
And I said earlier that the reason people like Wraiths has much less to do with killing power. And that's true! its those "other things" that make Wraiths good, but arguing that they kill better for the points... I mean... It's mathematically only true in one scenario, and only minimally... So... I dont know how you can say otherwise. Tiers dont even enter into this. this was about Wraiths vs. Flayed Ones on best possible terms for them both.
It’s great that Flayed Ones have now received nearly 5 pages of in depth tactical analysis. I think enough information has been parsed such that absent any changes to the Codex entry, there likely isn’t anything left unsaid by this point. May I politely recommend we move on?
Given Deceiver is already frequently played, do the point changes affect decision calculus for him? It strikes me that it doesn’t make any strategy using him any more or less playable, it merely allows additional units at the circumference of the list to be expanded. Agree/disagree?
You keep on claiming that Flayed Ones are better than Wraiths and that they are a competitive option relative to our other melee units, saying that FOs aren't going to win any GTs is the understatement of the year, you can say the same thing about units that are a lot more pts efficient than FOs. What we're arguing is whether they are A, B, C or D tier, so which is it? I'd say C tier, firmly uncompetitive but not absolute trash. .
It isnt about tiers. Its about the options you DO have. Bemoaning that someone has a better one is incredibly pointless and adds nothing to the discussion. We are assuming you want a melee element. Cant do anything about the enemy, that's going to be what it is. Can only deal with ours and in ours, we have for whatever reason decided to include a melee element, Tier Z or Tier A, who cares. We're doing it.
I'm going to ignore the rest because saying that stuff is like saying Warriors are great without character support. Lol. When you started talking about morale as a way to defend your position, ESPECIALLY because we are talking Wraiths getting their full attacks and Flayed Ones not? Umm... Are you even trying to be fair minded? If it comes to it, you spend the CP like everyone else does. if it wanst them it would have been another unit.
So look. IF the Wraiths get their attacks off, they do so in all likelihood turn two. More likely than not right? With an "intelligent opponent" assumed here, and no one WALKING into anyone's probable charges and blah blah blah...
Same for Flayed Ones, since we're giving everyone benefit of the doubt.
I did the math (see above). 7 Wraiths are inferior unless its a multiwound model and then it depends on how many wounds (2 is optimal, 3 puts the Wraiths right back into 2nd place, 1 also does). So they are EXACTLY better at killing 2-wound models by mere...assuming all goes WELL for them... 2.77 wounds. That's it! ONLY those!
Flayed Ones, optimally again, do better against all other targets and do GREAT against the same targets. I mean weird right? only 4 points separate the 7 wraiths from the 20 Flayed Ones. Effectively zero difference. same number of wounds basically but one has 3++, the other regenerates. One is susceptible to multi-wound weapons, one isn't but loses more attacks (but then they can afford to lose more). Law of large numbers favors the Flayed Ones also making it more likely to reach average performance. MUCH less swingy than the Wraiths. And the see-saw goes back and forth.
And I said earlier that the reason people like Wraiths has much less to do with killing power. And that's true! its those "other things" that make Wraiths good, but arguing that they kill better for the points... I mean... It's mathematically only true in one scenario, and only minimally... So... I dont know how you can say otherwise. Tiers dont even enter into this. this was about Wraiths vs. Flayed Ones on best possible terms for them both.
How is it not about tiers, you are claiming that Flayed Ones are good, so what tier are they in? Are they very good, decent, bad or horrible? How about Wraiths, are they very good, decent, bad or horrible? A, B, C or D?
Flayed Ones have M5, they advance 3,5", charge 7". T2 you have moved 13,5" and can charge 2d6, how are they getting into melee T2? You are assuming that your opponent walks any amount forwards without also killing the Flayed Ones, this is less realistic than a T1 Wraith charge. If you walk them across the board I'd say T3 at the earliest and T4 is not unlikely against some armies.
I'm assuming both Flayed Ones and Wraiths get the full amount of attacks, I'm assuming that your glass cannon unit suffers no casualties and my semi-tank unit suffers no damage.This is unrealistic and in favour of Flayed Ones, but let's say your opponent isn't aware that Flayed Ones run away when they lose 14 of their friends and chooses not to shoot lascannons at Flayed Ones, despite it being relatively efficient.
My math on Intercessors was off, sorry about that. Regeneration is pie in the sky, they are too easy to kill and too pricy to factor that in, ignoring morale when it's a huge factor is silly. It's like assuming a Monolith heals 5 times in a game, it's not realistic that you get a single Flayed One back, either your opponent walks calmy away from you or kills them. The threat they pose is not so large that it's worth investing in them. It's not about the best possible terms, it's about a realistic engagement. One where your opponent kills 5-7 Flayed Ones each turn is not realistic. I'm fine with saying that you outplay your opponents using a C-tier unit, but saying that its a good unit is false. Why have so few people replicated your success with the unit? Why have so many people replicated my success with Doomsday Arks and Immortals? The latter two units are pts efficient to a larger degree than Flayed Ones. If you are saying you are just taking Flayed Ones just because you want a melee unit for fun and you somehow still manage to win against great players then I'm fine with that, but that's not what you've been saying. Maybe you think Wraiths are overrated, maybe you think all Necron melee units are C-tier, I'm fine with that as well, nullzone is a threat for Wraiths and Repulsor Executioners are glasscannons that need shattering lest they shatter your army so spending 600+ pts on melee might just be pretty bad in the current meta. So are we back to saying Flayed Ones are pretty bad, not horrible but far from pts efficient and far weaker than our most pts efficient units?
How is it not about tiers, you are claiming that Flayed Ones are good, so what tier are they in?
The question is a red herring. Tiers just have no bearing here. They are just... better at the job. I don't place them as an apex predator among the various armies. But when you're pplaying Necrons you're NOT playing those other armies. So there's no point to comparing them to OTHER armies. If you straight up want a whole bunch of models dead (16+ T4 Marines to be exact) while taking up space while wrapping up the next unit for a price that is totally acceptable give the impact that would have, then yahoo. You got your guys.
Flayed Ones have M5, they advance 3,5", charge 7". T2 you have moved 13,5" and can charge 2d6, how are they getting into melee T2? You are assuming that your opponent walks any amount forwards without also killing the Flayed Ones, this is less realistic than a T1 Wraith charge. If you walk them across the board I'd say T3 at the earliest and T4 is not unlikely against some armies.
You don't NECESSARILY need to go to the enemy with Flayed Ones, or really any melee unit. Objectives force the action. The LOS blocker forces it also. I have told you this can be a turn 3 gambit.
If you face an assault heavy force, then getting there will be easy. They'll do the work for you. If its a balanced force like mine is, then you will clear the landing zone and Drop them. If its a Gunline you will play the shadow and clear one OR th other side as thoroughly aspossible andwhe nthe Scarabs arrive that will likely be when you have your opening. I have no crystal ball. I can only speak in generalities here.
And SOMETIMES very last one of the bastards will die. Just like all units the enemy DECIDES they want dead and that you put in a position to oblige them. Am I right?
I'm assuming both Flayed Ones and Wraiths get the full amount of attacks, I'm assuming that your glass cannon unit suffers no casualties and my semi-tank unit suffers no damage.This is unrealistic and in favour of Flayed Ones, but let's say your opponent isn't aware that Flayed Ones run away when they lose 14 of their friends and chooses not to shoot lascannons at Flayed Ones, despite it being relatively efficient.
I mean...you can SAY I wont use CP to ignore morale... But as for comparisons, We cannot possibly know what the dice will do to us on the approach. We just cant. So.
sieGermans wrote: It’s great that Flayed Ones have now received nearly 5 pages of in depth tactical analysis. I think enough information has been parsed such that absent any changes to the Codex entry, there likely isn’t anything left unsaid by this point. May I politely recommend we move on?
Given Deceiver is already frequently played, do the point changes affect decision calculus for him? It strikes me that it doesn’t make any strategy using him any more or less playable, it merely allows additional units at the circumference of the list to be expanded. Agree/disagree?
I for one, welcome this.
I love bringing him to casual games for the occasional turn 1 all out attack. But I sometimes struggle to put him to good use afterwards. A lower points investment will soften that.
As always, the challenge is to make his points worthwhile when you go second.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, and enough about Flayed Ones. Take them for spins and show and tell already.
I'm fine with saying that you outplay your opponents using a C-tier unit, but saying that its a good unit is false.
Outplaying people is a thing you can do. For sure. However i think I made a big deal out of pointing outthat nothing Ive ver done on any battlefeield has been special or beyond anyone elses capacity. Lol. I'm just not that special. And if I TELL you how to do it flat out...and Ive tried... Then you now know as well. Giving it some magical hard to reach quality in order to suggest that math hassuddenly changed its very nature is sort of...I mean...self serving here. The math says the Wraith excel against just one target type. Okay. So they do. A little. Not enough to make giving up the alternative!
Please, for the love of God, stop responding to Jancoran. He/she is clearly not going to change his/her mind, and the rest of you can be happy in the knowledge that clearly no one agrees with his/her assessment of flayed Ones. Now let's everyone move on.
Why have so few people replicated your success with the unit?
Lack of effort.
I'll be honest, I know about a billion gamers, and I know of VERY few who ever picked up the Flayed Ones and put them on tables when they used to be god awful. I mean GOD AWFUL. There was a time when they were. a long time. And people dont break their patterns very gladly.
So when they got better, people just didnt want to pay the money. THEY HAD "DECIDED", and as you'll know from being human for a short bit, people do this all the time. It really is that simple sometimes. Some of you have spuses who are proof. Some were luckier I guess.
The other reason which you probably know intuitively is that many people have FAR less time than I do to game. and less money. So when you combine those two things it becomes a practical matter. If the internet is saying Wraiths, and has been for a long time (and it has) then you stop questioning and start rationalizing why its probably true. You see the positives. You go out of your way to be part of the crowd in loving them and hey...those damn models are sexy as hell. It matters. Flayed Ones really arnet and this is a hobby after all...
Theres all kinds of wierd human reasons why people just don't TRY things or they dont try them for long. Limited time means you fall prey to the Low-hanging-fruit syndrome. "hell no Im not gonna' wate my time with those when I can just go trips Doomsday Ark and call it a day". If its just EASIER to play with and includes a lot less thinking or a lot less variables... It's just...easier. Not better NECESSARILY. Just easier. Lower hanging fruit just takes less effort to pick. The less niche the better for some.
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MrPieChee wrote: Please, for the love of God, stop responding to Jancoran. He/she is clearly not going to change his/her mind, and the rest of you can be happy in the knowledge that clearly no one agrees with his/her assessment of flayed Ones. Now let's everyone move on.
Saying I'm wrong isnt a compelling argument.
This is a forum. Scroll past if it no longer interests you. Don't be rude. I'm just answering the questions furiously put to me.
sieGermans wrote: It’s great that Flayed Ones have now received nearly 5 pages of in depth tactical analysis. I think enough information has been parsed such that absent any changes to the Codex entry, there likely isn’t anything left unsaid by this point. May I politely recommend we move on?
Given Deceiver is already frequently played, do the point changes affect decision calculus for him? It strikes me that it doesn’t make any strategy using him any more or less playable, it merely allows additional units at the circumference of the list to be expanded. Agree/disagree?
Nope sorry, I think it's relevant to the thread and I'd like to continue, feel free to block me and Jancoran though. I also tried to start a discussion on rods vs voidblades to make the thread about other things as well, part of what has been clogging up the thread is people not believing Jancoran's statements of fact like who he has played against, in such situations I'd just mute him and move on. The discussion of Flayed Ones is ten times more valuable than most other discussions we've had in the last 50 pages.
Pts cost changes things, he's probably going to be quite good in a lot of lists with triple DDA, Immortals/TBs, etc. etc. I think the question is whether using the Deceiver to move Warriors, Ghost Arks, C'tan (big and small) up the field is going to depend whether they get pts reductions, as is I don't think any of the units I mentioned stand a chance against Nu-Marines just because a support unit becomes more pts efficient. I'll be experimenting with him and Zahndrekh, I think it'll be pretty cool. I think there was a guy that recently topped a tournament using Deceiver and triple DDA so that'll get better if DDAs don't get hit, it's super hard to say with the information we have currently. Also Gauss and/or Mephrit TBs could become better, it's a lot of firepower to get in T1.
How is it not about tiers, you are claiming that Flayed Ones are good, so what tier are they in?
The question is a red herring. Tiers just have no bearing here. They are just... better at the job. I don't place them as an apex predator among the various armies. But when you're pplaying Necrons you're NOT playing those other armies. So there's no point to comparing them to OTHER armies. If you straight up want a whole bunch of models dead (16+ T4 Marines to be exact) while taking up space while wrapping up the next unit for a price that is totally acceptable give the impact that would have, then yahoo. You got your guys.
Tiers have every bearing if you're discussing how worthwhile a unit is, I'm also not saying compare them to other armies, I'm saying compare them to other Necron units, is that so hard? If you don't know the cost you can't possibly make any comment on how good the unit is, a unit is good in-so-far and to the degree that it is pts-efficient. How is the price totally acceptable? They are 55% more expensive than Warriors and exactly as easy to kill. Their damage output barely scales up to their cost unless you play Novokh and if you do you still have to factor in the fact that they are a glass cannon. Why do you want a unit that can take up space and wrap things unless you think it's a pts efficient way to win the game or it's fun. I can see the fun aspect, but it's not pts efficient. Yes FOs can do work, but they are not worth 17 pts compared to other Necron units or the competitive meta.
Flayed Ones have M5, they advance 3,5", charge 7". T2 you have moved 13,5" and can charge 2d6, how are they getting into melee T2? You are assuming that your opponent walks any amount forwards without also killing the Flayed Ones, this is less realistic than a T1 Wraith charge. If you walk them across the board I'd say T3 at the earliest and T4 is not unlikely against some armies.
You don't NECESSARILY need to go to the enemy with Flayed Ones, or really any melee unit. Objectives force the action. The LOS blocker forces it also. I have told you this can be a turn 3 gambit.
Why are you saying that Flayed Ones get in T2, same time as Flayed Ones? It's unrealistic that they get into combat at the same time, you're completely ignoring 7" of Movement.
If you face an assault heavy force, then getting there will be easy. They'll do the work for you. If its a balanced force like mine is, then you will clear the landing zone and Drop them. If its a Gunline you will play the shadow and clear one OR th other side as thoroughly as possible and when the Scarabs arrive that will likely be when you have your opening. I have no crystal ball. I can only speak in generalities here.
Yes getting into assault is easy, but you'll still die. Have you done the math for Flayed Ones vs Ork Boyz? How about Genestealers, Aberrants, Zerkers? Flayed Ones aren't winning melee, you might as well take Warriors for melee, they are much more durable and then you fall back and shoot the target instead of staying in melee with Flayed Ones.
And SOMETIMES very last one of the bastards will die. Just like all units the enemy DECIDES they want dead and that you put in a position to oblige them. Am I right?
That's where pts efficiency comes in, Flayed Ones cost 17 pts per T4 wound with 4+/7++, that's super expensive. Intercessors pay 17 pts for 2W T4 3+/7++, Immortals pay 15 pts for T4 3+/7++, Warriors have the exact same profile but at 65% of the cost, this is significant.
I'm assuming both Flayed Ones and Wraiths get the full amount of attacks, I'm assuming that your glass cannon unit suffers no casualties and my semi-tank unit suffers no damage.This is unrealistic and in favour of Flayed Ones, but let's say your opponent isn't aware that Flayed Ones run away when they lose 14 of their friends and chooses not to shoot lascannons at Flayed Ones, despite it being relatively efficient.
I mean...you can SAY I wont use CP to ignore morale... But as for comparisons, We cannot possibly know what the dice will do to us on the approach. We just cant. So.
You pay 2 CP and now you're left with 11 Flayed Ones assuming you don't have a Cryptek (Crypteks are expensive I'd demand you add that to the price if you want to do that calculation). So now you've spent 2 CP to keep your Flayed Ones half alive, next turn your opponent can finish them off. We can estimate dice rolls by doing math. Flayed Ones don't like math though, because they are a mathematically bad choice.
Nope, it's worth almost nothing in competitive games, only in casual games is it actually worth a lot where opponents often can't instantly obliterate 14 or 20 Flayed Ones.
I think the question is whether using the Deceiver to move Warriors, Ghost Arks, C'tan (big and small) up the field is going to depend whether they get pts reductions
rate 14 or 20 Flayed Ones.
A pointsreduction would definitely tilt things firther for the Flayed Ones. It can only help.
"Well, I hear what you say, but here is a game I played, [...], read that batrep and see. Flayed Ones did what they did well, and as you could see they were just as good as any other unit would have been."
"Anecdotal you say? Sure. Just watch me next time."
[1 week later]
"So check out this game, see, it worked again. And as I said it would. Im teling (and showing you), they can be played effectively"
--
Instead you do this... crappy-prison-movie fresh-inmate thing where you punch the biggest guy around to make a name for yourself, grabbing attention for yourself by any means possible. That got old... soo long ago.
This is a nice place. With nice rational people. Who talk normal to each other. Give it a chance.
Now will you please go out and play your flayed ones and write up those nice bat reps about then where you make them shine? Or point me to where they are, because I admit I quickly started to scroll passed your vitriol-infested walls of texts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and a quick disclaimer, if there was a mode change for the better the last page I may not have caught up to that.
Yes getting into assault is easy, but you'll still die. Have you done the math for Flayed Ones vs Ork Boyz? Flayed Ones aren't winning melee
Well thats absurd. You take out an entire ork mob with them. 30 orks just gone.
And 30 Ork Boyz kill 20 Flayed Ones, one costs 210, the other costs 340. Ergo, the 210 pt unit is more pts efficient. Flayed Ones are too ineffective pts-wise to be worth bringing in competitive games. If you're a sucker for pain you can still do it and lose most of the time or you have a big brain you might still be able to make it work. Flayed Ones are too pts inefficient compared to our other choices and the other choices of other factions. Alright, I think I'm done now, Jancoran just go in and edit your old posts instead of making new posts, I think people are pretty tired of us already.
Yes getting into assault is easy, but you'll still die. Have you done the math for Flayed Ones vs Ork Boyz? Flayed Ones aren't winning melee
Well thats absurd. You take out an entire ork mob with them. 30 orks just gone.
And reverse is true as well. Difference being orks cost less and while flayed ones have 28% chance of making charge orks have 78%. Gee. Now do I want cheaper unit that does same 78% time or more expensive unit that does 28%. And the boyz aren't even that good unit to begin with and are getting fewer and fewer in competive ork lists.
You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper with your ridiculous comparisons that don't bear any truth when exposed to cold hard facts.
Jancoran, you have completely ignored the math I presented. You say it's wrong to compare one max unit of Wraiths (unbuffed) to one max unit of Flayed Ones (unbuffed), without really giving any reasons for that.
Now, with the rumoured 7 point drop, Flayed Ones look much better. But as they are NOW... They're not very good. Certainly not as good as Wraiths.
Can we freaking drop the Flayed Ones discussion already?! Frak me its nothing but this for 3 pages.
Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.
Yes getting into assault is easy, but you'll still die. Have you done the math for Flayed Ones vs Ork Boyz? Flayed Ones aren't winning melee
Well thats absurd. You take out an entire ork mob with them. 30 orks just gone.
And 30 Ork Boyz kill 20 Flayed Ones, one costs 210, the other costs 340. Ergo, the 210 pt unit is more pts efficient. Flayed Ones are too ineffective pts-wise to be worth bringing in competitive games. If you're a sucker for pain you can still do it and lose most of the time or you have a big brain you might still be able to make it work. Flayed Ones are too pts inefficient compared to our other choices and the other choices of other factions. Alright, I think I'm done now, Jancoran just go in and edit your old posts instead of making new posts, I think people are pretty tired of us already.
Wait, was playing orks one of your options in the necron codex?
No. So maybe we need to remember that. =)
Like i said: bemoaning that some other army can do this or that better doesn't really change what we're talking about. This is about whether you take 7 Wraiths or 20 Flayed Ones. Not whether some other codex has a cool melee unit,
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JNAProductions wrote: Jancoran, you have completely ignored the math I presented. You say it's wrong to compare one max unit of Wraiths (unbuffed) to one max unit of Flayed Ones (unbuffed), without really giving any reasons for that.
Now, with the rumoured 7 point drop, Flayed Ones look much better. But as they are NOW... They're not very good. Certainly not as good as Wraiths.
Actually I countered your math with accurate math, and explanations. That's what factually happened.
You've DECIDED not to make use of Flayed Ones. You have talked yourself out of it and I am fine with it.
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iGuy91 wrote: Can we freaking drop the Flayed Ones discussion already?! Frak me its nothing but this for 3 pages.
Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.
Praetorians always looked great, and with a points drop I definitely will try them.
Well, Im convinced that FO's are good now. Although, I'll probably wait for them to get a plastic kit because I can't justify spending over $100 for a full unit.
v0iddrgn wrote: Well, Im convinced that FO's are good now. Although, I'll probably wait for them to get a plastic kit because I can't justify spending over $100 for a full unit.
Convert Warriors with cool arms. Thats what I did.
iGuy91 wrote: Can we freaking drop the Flayed Ones discussion already?! Frak me its nothing but this for 3 pages.
Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.
Their damage output still sucks, but they're interesting as objective grabbers/holders. 100 pts for 10 wounds at T5, 3+ save with good movement. I'd consider them, but the problem is I'm not sure what I'd drop to fit them in my lists? Hopefully we get some points drops in the units we're already using (I think Immortals could drop to 14pts and our HQs all need drops for sure). Also, as good as they can be, I think Destroyers are overpointed without Extermination Protocols. I'd rather they dropped to 40pts each and Extermination Protocols went up to 2CP. Of course that's not happening though, GW bases balance on how used thing are.
Given Jancoran's condescending, smug tone I almost don't want Flayed Ones to get a drop, because they might become good and then he'll claim to be a trend setter rather than just a nob. With that said, they become interesting if they drop down to 10pts per model. But yeah, there aren't many units that wouldn't improve with a 40% drop so meh.
I think Psychic Awakening will do far more for us than any measly points drops will manage.
iGuy91 wrote: Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.
Well short of epic failure by GW(seeing they are the ones that told us the points) the price drop is true.
Guess depending on terrain you have they might have SOME use for counter charging but I would still pay the 4 pts more for lychguard. You can get buffed by immortal to hit on 2+ and you have 4++ which at least gives them SOME survivability. There's so much D2 weapons out there the W2 is less impressive than it sounds alas :-/
Well at least you aren't totally screwing yourself anymore. Semi competive they could work semi okay
iGuy91 wrote: Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.
Well short of epic failure by GW(seeing they are the ones that told us the points) the price drop is true.
Guess depending on terrain you have they might have SOME use for counter charging but I would still pay the 4 pts more for lychguard. You can get buffed by immortal to hit on 2+ and you have 4++ which at least gives them SOME survivability. There's so much D2 weapons out there the W2 is less impressive than it sounds alas :-/
Well at least you aren't totally screwing yourself anymore. Semi competive they could work semi okay
Praetorians can't be buffed by My Will be Done as they lack the dynasty keyword. They have their own strat that lets gives them +1 to hit though. I think D2 weaponry isn't nearly as prevalent as it was. Outside of Leviathans, marines are spamming D1 for the most part. Also they won't be high priority targets. They'll basically do the same job 5 man intercessor squads do, camping objectives are being irritatingly difficult to remove for their points. They cost slightly more, but they're Str5/T5, fly and move 10". Honestly, at 20pts per model I think they could be alright.
I think at 20 points you don't even care about Praetorians charging into things - you use them as bulky flying objective grabbers and put the onus on the opponent to interact with them. T5 is awkward to deal with for a lot of armies and will draw fire that would otherwise go to a doomsday ark - and if they don't deal with your Praetorians, well, you're getting free VP.
One thing to think about, is that a unit of 10 Praetorians would require a decent amount of shooting to take down (probably D2 weapons to be effective), and with reanimation and morale immunity they kind of do require a your opponent to take them down in a fast motion. Still, I doubt they'll be useful without any synergies to back them up. Plus, if we don't receive other huge changes, they don't fit into any current lists.
iGuy91 wrote: Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.
Well short of epic failure by GW(seeing they are the ones that told us the points) the price drop is true.
Guess depending on terrain you have they might have SOME use for counter charging but I would still pay the 4 pts more for lychguard. You can get buffed by immortal to hit on 2+ and you have 4++ which at least gives them SOME survivability. There's so much D2 weapons out there the W2 is less impressive than it sounds alas :-/
Well at least you aren't totally screwing yourself anymore. Semi competive they could work semi okay
It's still 10-11 points per T5 3+ wound. While D2 can be common, it is not so prevalent that I think jumping through terrain is more worth it than trying to get Lychguard to make a charge.
It almost makes me want to draft a new Necron list but I'll wait for the other point drops first.
Don't believe this crap about people writing off Flayed Ones because the unit was never considered good. Do you know how many people play Warhammer 40K? If they were good as much as you say, they would be recognised as a decent competitive unit. Top competitive players consider all units and synergies to get the most out of them.
Wraiths are more versatile in their play with a good datasheet and abilities. That's why they are regarded better than Flayed Ones.
Flayed Ones are not competitive. Not because no one in the Warhammer community fielded them, but because they are just not good.
Top competitive players consider all units and synergies to get the most out of them. d.
Top competitive players? I mean... um... So if like I was one of those, and I told you they were good, it sounds like you might beleive me then. Is... that right?
If I saw your name in the top 4 weekly round ups of Majors or GTs using Flayed Ones, or even a top performing list using Flayed Ones, then your point may be worth considering.
I just believe most people here see through your BS and your sake in just arguing with others. Flayed Ones aren't currently a good unit and the facts of that are obvious. Let's hope their points get tweaked to a point that they may be good.
iGuy91 wrote: Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.
Well short of epic failure by GW(seeing they are the ones that told us the points) the price drop is true.
Guess depending on terrain you have they might have SOME use for counter charging but I would still pay the 4 pts more for lychguard. You can get buffed by immortal to hit on 2+ and you have 4++ which at least gives them SOME survivability. There's so much D2 weapons out there the W2 is less impressive than it sounds alas :-/
Well at least you aren't totally screwing yourself anymore. Semi competive they could work semi okay
Praetorians can't be buffed by My Will be Done as they lack the dynasty keyword. They have their own strat that lets gives them +1 to hit though. I think D2 weaponry isn't nearly as prevalent as it was. Outside of Leviathans, marines are spamming D1 for the most part. Also they won't be high priority targets. They'll basically do the same job 5 man intercessor squads do, camping objectives are being irritatingly difficult to remove for their points. They cost slightly more, but they're Str5/T5, fly and move 10". Honestly, at 20pts per model I think they could be alright.
eh that was my point That's why I prefer lychguard since they can be buffed. You can do 8" charge with reroll so if you are willing to use CP for single charge dice reroll in need you can get respectable 78% charge range. That's more like it. And then you hit on 2+ which is nice to have. The 3+ to hit cuts down on offensive output rather lot. 40k is about alpha striking your opponent off the board in first 2-3 turns so unit that has stinky damage output needs to have some special role and be cheap to be considered. Praetorians aren't cheap.
Top competitive players consider all units and synergies to get the most out of them. d.
Top competitive players? I mean... um... So if like I was one of those, and I told you they were good, it sounds like you might beleive me then. Is... that right?
I'm pretty sure if flayed ones won a major somebody on this site would know about it other than you
tneva82 wrote: eh that was my point That's why I prefer lychguard since they can be buffed. You can do 8" charge with reroll so if you are willing to use CP for single charge dice reroll in need you can get respectable 78% charge range. That's more like it. And then you hit on 2+ which is nice to have. The 3+ to hit cuts down on offensive output rather lot. 40k is about alpha striking your opponent off the board in first 2-3 turns so unit that has stinky damage output needs to have some special role and be cheap to be considered. Praetorians aren't cheap.
Indeed, if Lychguard also have a point reduction, I still don't see how pretorians could justify themselves. They need something to differentiate them from our other alrealdy not super strong melee options.
I wish both loadout were different in role, right now the Rod is cheaper because it is weaker. With a Rod maybe damage 2, you could maybe start to use them for aircraft hunting.
tneva82 wrote: eh that was my point That's why I prefer lychguard since they can be buffed. You can do 8" charge with reroll so if you are willing to use CP for single charge dice reroll in need you can get respectable 78% charge range. That's more like it. And then you hit on 2+ which is nice to have. The 3+ to hit cuts down on offensive output rather lot. 40k is about alpha striking your opponent off the board in first 2-3 turns so unit that has stinky damage output needs to have some special role and be cheap to be considered. Praetorians aren't cheap.
Indeed, if Lychguard also have a point reduction, I still don't see how pretorians could justify themselves. They need something to differentiate them from our other alrealdy not super strong melee options.
I wish both loadout were different in role, right now the Rod is cheaper because it is weaker. With a Rod maybe damage 2, you could maybe start to use them for aircraft hunting.
The higher AP value on the rod is really good versus MEQ units which lack invuln saves (Which will occupy a higher proportion of the meta). If they are meant to be troop mulchers (Which appears to be their role based on stat lines), an update for anti-Primaris (such as D2 like you suggest) would be quite good for this.
sieGermans wrote: The higher AP value on the rod is really good versus MEQ units which lack invuln saves (Which will occupy a higher proportion of the meta). If they are meant to be troop mulchers (Which appears to be their role based on stat lines), an update for anti-Primaris (such as D2 like you suggest) would be quite good for this.
Clearly necron become more relevant when marines are higher in the meta, at least when they don't all have a stormshield for 2 points like it was the case with Deathwatch.
With D2 on the rod, praetorians would be maybe enter the lychguard with scythes territory, but at least they would bring something different. Lychguard with scythe should also hit harder against vehicule imo. These things were the ultimate can opener before, now they are not that great.
torblind wrote: With the rod you could shoot first the charge in and do almost as much damage as with the pistol and blade load out.
This could be nice if you don't necessarily want to linger in CC (could jump out and still shoot something at least).
And the rod looks way cooler
Of course rods looks cooler =)
Shooting before charging is very hit or miss to me. Worst case scenario you miss your charge entirely, but sometimes you still make the charge but bring less bodies to melee range. Gameplay wise Voidblades are better for me.
I would love in CA 2019 if the Seraptek Heavy Construct shaved maybe 25-50 points. Considering there is no ability to rotate ion shields, its semi-squishy.
sieGermans wrote: The higher AP value on the rod is really good versus MEQ units which lack invuln saves (Which will occupy a higher proportion of the meta). If they are meant to be troop mulchers (Which appears to be their role based on stat lines), an update for anti-Primaris (such as D2 like you suggest) would be quite good for this.
Clearly necron become more relevant when marines are higher in the meta, at least when they don't all have a stormshield for 2 points like it was the case with Deathwatch.
With D2 on the rod, praetorians would be maybe enter the lychguard with scythes territory, but at least they would bring something different. Lychguard with scythe should also hit harder against vehicule imo. These things were the ultimate can opener before, now they are not that great.
torblind wrote: With the rod you could shoot first the charge in and do almost as much damage as with the pistol and blade load out.
This could be nice if you don't necessarily want to linger in CC (could jump out and still shoot something at least).
And the rod looks way cooler
Of course rods looks cooler =)
Shooting before charging is very hit or miss to me. Worst case scenario you miss your charge entirely, but sometimes you still make the charge but bring less bodies to melee range. Gameplay wise Voidblades are better for me.
But you always shoot before charge anyway, right? It's more a matter of if you plan to stay in CC for more turns to finish them off or if you jump out for fun elsewhere. The number of 3+ to hit, S5 AP-3, for the first turn of engagement is still the same.
Of course you might not have LoS before charging, you'd just have to factor that in.
Rod of Covenant is strictly worse then the staff of light which is what they should have been armed with to begin with. I guess someone at GW thought a unit of those would be broken, but apparently a marine can have a 36" -2 D2 basic gun
torblind wrote: But you always shoot before charge anyway, right? It's more a matter of if you plan to stay in CC for more turns to finish them off or if you jump out for fun elsewhere. The number of 3+ to hit, S5 AP-3, for the first turn of engagement is still the same.
Of course you might not have LoS before charging, you'd just have to factor that in.
As you are not forced to shoot, it would really depends on the distance between prets and their target. at 7" or more, i would probably not shoot if by removing a mini, my opponent can push me to the 8" or more range. It also depends on the terrain of course, and other factors, but in the end, i prefer more attacks than a shoot and less attacks.
One shot per pret is not enough to risk losing the charge after that, unless the target are monster in melee, but in this case you're pretty much toasted anyway.
Red Corsair wrote: Rod of Covenant is strictly worse then the staff of light which is what they should have been armed with to begin with. I guess someone at GW thought a unit of those would be broken, but apparently a marine can have a 36" -2 D2 basic gun
I would totally play Prets with staff of light ! At least they would be a very distinct profile.
I also don't understand how every marines HQ brings a D2 (or more) bolter when our staff of light are D1 (unless relic) for half the range and twice the cost.
Red Corsair wrote: Rod of Covenant is strictly worse then the staff of light which is what they should have been armed with to begin with. I guess someone at GW thought a unit of those would be broken, but apparently a marine can have a 36" -2 D2 basic gun
Well if you want the weight of attacks at least the Voidblade isn't that bad at 22 points.
Shooting is something they'll never do well without more shots though, agreed.
One thing to consider with Praetorians is that Imotekh (and Anrakyr, who I suspect is going to get a decent price cut) can give them MWBD.
The voidblade variant kick out a respectable number of attacks in melee, and the plus one strength strategem enables them to do 2 things:
Wound, and more than likely kill GEQ on 2+
Wound most fliers on a 4+
So they are close to blending two qualities, weight of dice and strong AP, forcing difficult saves.
Unfortunately, they do rely on getting into combat to do the business and the AP is often wasted when attacking something with a 4++
They're a mixed bag, being good at a few things but not great at anything. I have a big soft spot for them and love the fact they can take down flyers in melee, the mental image of ten of them wailing on a stormhawk interceptor is brilliant.
I think GW missed a wide open goal when they made Judgement of the Triarch a +1 to hit strategem not a +1 to wound. They are niche enough to get something like that and it would make them genuinely threatening to a lot of stuff
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The durability helps there. I was more referring to the fact they're less reliant on Strats or Character buffing.
They totally are, but we tend to play less characters and are not a CP heavy army anyway. On one hand it's good because our ressources can be spent elsewhere, on the other hand i still think Wraith car offers you more flexibility and when needed you can spend 1CP to make them incredibly fast, 2CP to make them RP. It's quite handy having these tricks in your sleeve.
If their own stratagem was, as said above, a +1 to wound, you could have a unit who usually operate alone without ressources, but can sometimes push a little more making them a good distraction carnifex.
I will totally test them though, because if D2 weapons are directed toward them, Tomb Blades and Quantum Shield Vehicules will be happier.
I think the idea belongs in the 40K Proposed Rules section. Unless you are asking what sorts of tactics we'd use if the rule was implemented, even that is very tangential to this thread.
I'd be interested to know if people would be willing to submit their gaming data to me for processing after the changes in CA19? If I can get a handful of people from this thread to input data I might also go on some other sites and see if I can find a large-ish group of people to all put in their gameplay data. I plan on playtesting every unit, but it'd probably take me 1-5 months to do it alone and more data is better data.
A lot of weird changes. Heavy Destroyers are no cheaper than regular Destroyers. Warriors being unchanged is pretty terrible though. Same with Crypteks. I'm not sure this changes too much about our ability to compete with other books.
Based on these numbers you could get 30 sword and board lychguard, 18 wraiths, a Nightbringer and some HQs. You won't kill anything, but you can march into the centre of the board and dare anything to come near you while you score pts. Best I can come up with.
Ghost Ark at 120 points are kind of silly compared to Warriors. They were already close to Warriors price, but now, for 10 points more that 10 warriors, you gain so much more (12" move, T6, Fly).
Shaelinith wrote: Ghost Ark at 120 points are kind of silly compared to Warriors. They were already close to Warriors price, but now, for 10 points more that 10 warriors, you gain so much more (12" move, T6, Fly).
I guess at minimum they'll get use as Gun Boats. It isn't a terrible package for the price but you can't fill detachment requirements to get that CP so who cares?
Will this CA include points for FW stuff like Kutlakh, Acanthrites and the Seraptek? I have a soft spot for those three but I honestly think they need adjusting by a sizeable margin to see anything akin to a decent semi-competitive list.
Shaelinith wrote: Ghost Ark at 120 points are kind of silly compared to Warriors. They were already close to Warriors price, but now, for 10 points more that 10 warriors, you gain so much more (12" move, T6, Fly).
Hmm good point. Maybe they shouldn't be used with warriors at all and just have as gunboats.
Darsath wrote:A lot of weird changes. Heavy Destroyers are no cheaper than regular Destroyers. Warriors being unchanged is pretty terrible though. Same with Crypteks. I'm not sure this changes too much about our ability to compete with other books.
Heavy destroyers are 37 now, destroyers are still 50.
Mixzremixzd wrote:Will this CA include points for FW stuff like Kutlakh, Acanthrites and the Seraptek? I have a soft spot for those three but I honestly think they need adjusting by a sizeable margin to see anything akin to a decent semi-competitive list.
Mixzremixzd wrote: Will this CA include points for FW stuff like Kutlakh, Acanthrites and the Seraptek? I have a soft spot for those three but I honestly think they need adjusting by a sizeable margin to see anything akin to a decent semi-competitive list.
Yes. But GW has long tradition of UPPING cost of FW units. Like flyer that didn't even dominate tournaments or even appear much just getting 300% price hike.
That's resin tax. Don't expect good thing for FW models. GW doesn't want you to use them.
Shaelinith wrote: Ghost Ark at 120 points are kind of silly compared to Warriors. They were already close to Warriors price, but now, for 10 points more that 10 warriors, you gain so much more (12" move, T6, Fly).
Hmm good point. Maybe they shouldn't be used with warriors at all and just have as gunboats.
Yeah that was what i had in mind. I still remember the LVO necron list who made 20th place last year. It has two ghost ark (with warrior inside but still), and since then i had a similar list i wanted to try. Never did it because i don't want to build my last 3 arks before i paint them and ... i was too lazy to build them =)
The meta has drastically change since though. But i could see Ghost Ark as gun boats work just to tag things and serve as cheap distraction carnifex.
Shaelinith wrote: Yeah that was what i had in mind. I still remember the LVO necron list who made 20th place last year. It has two ghost ark (with warrior inside but still), and since then i had a similar list i wanted to try. Never did it because i don't want to build my last 3 arks before i paint them and ... i was too lazy to build them =)
The meta has drastically change since though. But i could see Ghost Ark as gun boats work just to tag things and serve as cheap distraction carnifex.
Here's what I'm thinking. 57 pts still to spend. Probably not even optimal but didn't want to start getting fancy accounting point differences manually
Spoiler:
Overlord & cryptek as usual
3x10 tesla immortal
3xdda
2x3 scarab
6xdestroyer
4 ghost ark
Ghost arks form front line providing buffer to h2h units and throwing in 40 shots outside 12". Teslas, dda's and destroyers blow stuff as usual. Basically compared to my usual lists rather than fliers for the nice but unreliable(if you go 2nd usually one dies anyway) MW bomb I have ghost ark skirmish line between me and enemy.
List of percentage pts changes from the leaks we've gotten so far:
Spoiler:
(Because percentages are what really matters) (Well technically not percentages, but you are going to have to multiply by 100% in your head)
Anrakyr the Traveller: -0,1616766467 C'tan Shard of the Deceiver: -0,2 C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer: -0,1388888889 Illuminor Szeras: -0,08333333333 Imotekh the Stormlord: -0,125 Nemesor Zahndrekh: -0,1666666667 Orikan the Diviner: -0,1304347826 Vargard Obyron: -0,08
I'm happy our HQs got buffs, they really needed it. It didn't feel right to me that our HQ tax was so high. Cheap GAs makes me wonder if that alone makes Warriors more viable, probably not. Even if you have 3 GAs you'd probably still run Immortals over Warriors IMO. I'm very unsure if I should continue my double Battalion playstyle, I might just add in a Necron Lord and get another free CP and let my old army carry me forwards. 18 Wraiths and 5 C'tan was very fun sometimes, that's 300 pts cheaper. Particle casters being an option on Wraiths is neat, I think I'll run them wysiwyg from now on if I have them, I think the optimal amount is probably around 50% of the unit. T-beamers and P-beamers are still trash sadly. Spyder getting a MASSIVE drop is very nice, I kind of hope GW isn't going with my idea of nerfing the fabricator claw array to actually balance the options but just lets us have cheap repair-Spyders.
Mixzremixzd wrote: Will this CA include points for FW stuff like Kutlakh, Acanthrites and the Seraptek? I have a soft spot for those three but I honestly think they need adjusting by a sizeable margin to see anything akin to a decent semi-competitive list.
Yes. But GW has long tradition of UPPING cost of FW units. Like flyer that didn't even dominate tournaments or even appear much just getting 300% price hike.
That's resin tax. Don't expect good thing for FW models. GW doesn't want you to use them.
Where are you getting this from? GW drastically reduced the cost of the SM/CSM Fire Raptor which was already good, then it became a competitive staple and then they nerfed it back to or further than its starting point after having learnt how good it could be. The Necron FW Flyer got buffed last CA, the first CA didn't touch Necrons except for the Gauss Pylon which kind of makes sense if they want to see how good (or in this case bad) the codex was on its own.
Here's what I'm thinking. 57 pts still to spend. Probably not even optimal but didn't want to start getting fancy accounting point differences manually
Spoiler:
Overlord & cryptek as usual
3x10 tesla immortal
3xdda
2x3 scarab
6xdestroyer
4 ghost ark
Ghost arks form front line providing buffer to h2h units and throwing in 40 shots outside 12". Teslas, dda's and destroyers blow stuff as usual. Basically compared to my usual lists rather than fliers for the nice but unreliable(if you go 2nd usually one dies anyway) MW bomb I have ghost ark skirmish line between me and enemy.
Well me being me nephrek. I'm pretty much dynasty locked for that apart from airwings ;-) I like the mobilty which helps scoring objectives from distant places and giving me sure ablity to actually shoot T1 with immortals if I go first. And if there's someting I don't like at all it's dynasty/chapter/regiment/whatever hopping. I have played nephrek from the get-go and with these necron models unless GW screws nephrek completely that's what I'm sticking with.
But guess sautekh or mephrit could work. Not with my playstyle though. Would need to learn a new playstyle with them.
Shaelinith wrote: Yeah that was what i had in mind. I still remember the LVO necron list who made 20th place last year. It has two ghost ark (with warrior inside but still), and since then i had a similar list i wanted to try. Never did it because i don't want to build my last 3 arks before i paint them and ... i was too lazy to build them =)
The meta has drastically change since though. But i could see Ghost Ark as gun boats work just to tag things and serve as cheap distraction carnifex.
Here's what I'm thinking. 57 pts still to spend. Probably not even optimal but didn't want to start getting fancy accounting point differences manually
Spoiler:
Overlord & cryptek as usual
3x10 tesla immortal
3xdda
2x3 scarab
6xdestroyer
4 ghost ark
Ghost arks form front line providing buffer to h2h units and throwing in 40 shots outside 12". Teslas, dda's and destroyers blow stuff as usual. Basically compared to my usual lists rather than fliers for the nice but unreliable(if you go 2nd usually one dies anyway) MW bomb I have ghost ark skirmish line between me and enemy.
Too bad I don't have 4 ghost arks...
Looks solid, the only change I'd make is drop the Immortal down to min squads - you've got anti infantry firepower for days, you don't need them. That saves you 225 pts, which I'd spend on another two Ghost Arks or a Ghost Ark and 3 Heavy Destroyers.
tneva82 wrote: Not bad idea. Well except 3 heavy destroyers. No way I'm dropping dda for them. Nor paying 1 CP for them either.
Also 6 ghost arks is getting bit expensive So at least for start I think I would stick with 4 ark version ;-) I ain't made of gold!
Crap, forgot you only had one detachment. I'm just looking at the meta right now, it's either minus to hit flyers or 2+ save stealthy Iron Hands - both of which are terrible matchups for Tesla.
I think I'm going to actually use warriors as troops, stick them in the Ghost Arks and do the Necron version of Venom Spam. With only 1 detachment, it's a toss up between Mephrit and Nihilakh for your list. I'd be tempted to go full Quantum Shield Online, sneak a CCB in there with those spare points then you can have a Nihilakh Spearhead and a Mephrit Battalion.
Well certainly necrons don't come much better in terms of competive build. Standard list of overlord/imotek, cryptek, 3x10 immortal, 3xddda, 3sdoom scythe and maybe 6xdestroyers or 9xtomb blade don't come all that much cheaper. We get maybe 2 extra scarab swarm.
Internal balance for more casual games improves. I can live with that since I don't play on hardcore competive meta so I get quite a bit but for hardcore tournament players yeah not much here :(
tneva82 wrote: Not bad idea. Well except 3 heavy destroyers. No way I'm dropping dda for them. Nor paying 1 CP for them either.
Also 6 ghost arks is getting bit expensive So at least for start I think I would stick with 4 ark version ;-) I ain't made of gold!
Crap, forgot you only had one detachment. I'm just looking at the meta right now, it's either minus to hit flyers or 2+ save stealthy Iron Hands - both of which are terrible matchups for Tesla.
I think I'm going to actually use warriors as troops, stick them in the Ghost Arks and do the Necron version of Venom Spam. With only 1 detachment, it's a toss up between Mephrit and Nihilakh for your list. I'd be tempted to go full Quantum Shield Online, sneak a CCB in there with those spare points then you can have a Nihilakh Spearhead and a Mephrit Battalion.
Venom Spam works because the occupants can safely shoot from the Venom.
tneva82 wrote: Well certainly necrons don't come much better in terms of competive build. Standard list of overlord/imotek, cryptek, 3x10 immortal, 3xddda, 3sdoom scythe and maybe 6xdestroyers or 9xtomb blade don't come all that much cheaper. We get maybe 2 extra scarab swarm.
Internal balance for more casual games improves. I can live with that since I don't play on hardcore competive meta so I get quite a bit but for hardcore tournament players yeah not much here :(
Pretty much my thoughts, though I don't think the above will be our best build anymore, as much due to meta changes as points. I think QS spam or weirdly lychguard/wraith spam will be better at holding the board in standard missions. God knows with ITC.
Edit:
Venom Spam works because the occupants can safely shoot from the Venom.
True, but I'm thinking more in terms of "you kill the ghost ark holding the objective, out pop ten warriors who still hold it". I don't think we can keep up in a killing competition anymore.
IanVanCheese wrote: Crap, forgot you only had one detachment. I'm just looking at the meta right now, it's either minus to hit flyers or 2+ save stealthy Iron Hands - both of which are terrible matchups for Tesla.
Yeh the HQ tax is bit annoying. Though albeit with new prices that might ease up a bit though cryptek still 80 pts. GW is def overvaluing that one. Another overlord is getting more appealing choise.
BTW did the stealthy thing count as cover? Aka does solar pulse negate it? (for some reason numarines are rather sparse locally so...)
And I love the automatic 6" advance. It keeps giving me vp's steadily allowing me to reach objectives easily.
tneva82 wrote: Well certainly necrons don't come much better in terms of competive build. Standard list of overlord/imotek, cryptek, 3x10 immortal, 3xddda, 3sdoom scythe and maybe 6xdestroyers or 9xtomb blade don't come all that much cheaper. We get maybe 2 extra scarab swarm.
Internal balance for more casual games improves. I can live with that since I don't play on hardcore competive meta so I get quite a bit but for hardcore tournament players yeah not much here :(
Pretty much my thoughts, though I don't think the above will be our best build anymore, as much due to meta changes as points. I think QS spam or weirdly lychguard/wraith spam will be better at holding the board in standard missions. God knows with ITC.
Not sold on lychguard. Mere 2 point drop doesn't help there. Also QS spam suffers from current meta of D2 spam to deal with primaris marines :-/ But we'll see. Wraiths do look interesting. Good thing I have second unit ready to be assembled! Just LOTR getting in the way. That and need to replace airbrush as last one broke.
IanVanCheese wrote: Crap, forgot you only had one detachment. I'm just looking at the meta right now, it's either minus to hit flyers or 2+ save stealthy Iron Hands - both of which are terrible matchups for Tesla.
Yeh the HQ tax is bit annoying. Though albeit with new prices that might ease up a bit though cryptek still 80 pts. GW is def overvaluing that one. Another overlord is getting more appealing choise.
BTW did the stealthy thing count as cover? Aka does solar pulse negate it? (for some reason numarines are rather sparse locally so...)
And I love the automatic 6" advance. It keeps giving me vp's steadily allowing me to reach objectives easily.
Ghost Arks move 12, you're fine for mobility. Yeah, they count as in cover so you can Solar Pulse, but that's only one unit of Immortals since it affects the unit shooting, not the unit being hit by the solar pulse for some bizarre reason.
With his drop, I'm almost eyeing up the Destroyer Lord again as a little suicide pain in the arse. Give him the Phylactery and Warscythe, he's 114pts and hard as nails, plus he can get back up when he dies (twice if you use the strat too).
Edit: I don't think D2 is going to be the meta for much longer. Between Marines and Sisters, spamming low AP, D2/D3 weaponry isn't going to cut it anymore.
No need for lord. For 1CP you reroll all hits and all to wounds. Forget about rerolling 1's to wound. Vs vehicles that's not much help. With strategem rerolling 1-4 you have 55% chance to wound T7-T11 so you will wreck stuff a lot(indeed 14 wounds vs leman russ type of vehicle).
So for support cryptek only one of concern but not sure if that's good enough anyway. They are high priority so basically you just slow down death. Likely dead in one turn anyway.
(one of the nice thing about destroyers is precisely no need for character support so they can be elsewhere from your main castle. Helps with dealing with stuff out of LOS to main castle, helps with objectives)
tneva82 wrote: No need for lord. For 1CP you reroll all hits and all to wounds. Forget about rerolling 1's to wound. Vs vehicles that's not much help. With strategem rerolling 1-4 you have 55% chance to wound T7-T11 so you will wreck stuff a lot(indeed 14 wounds vs leman russ type of vehicle).
So for support cryptek only one of concern but not sure if that's good enough anyway. They are high priority so basically you just slow down death. Likely dead in one turn anyway.
(one of the nice thing about destroyers is precisely no need for character support so they can be elsewhere from your main castle. Helps with dealing with stuff out of LOS to main castle, helps with objectives)
To be fair, the 5++ sounds more enticing on them than anything else in the army.
Top competitive players consider all units and synergies to get the most out of them. d.
Top competitive players? I mean... um... So if like I was one of those, and I told you they were good, it sounds like you might beleive me then. Is... that right?
I'm pretty sure if flayed ones won a major somebody on this site would know about it other than you
Yup. Pretty sure also. But then...the fact that Necrons would even be mentioned in that breathe would be far more noteworthy at that point. Lol.
Surely you dont think anyone here, after reading this thread, is suggesting that Flayed Ones are going to cause you to win a GT? That was never suggested. the OPPOSITE of that was explicitly said. So. There's that. Don't hold your breathe.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
elook wrote: If I saw your name in the top 4 weekly round ups of Majors or GTs using Flayed Ones, or even a top performing list using Flayed Ones, then your point may be worth considering.
Let's hope their points get tweaked to a point that they may be good.
Okay so just to be clear, the opinion of a top General wouldn't sway you. You'd actually have to be a TOP general AND choose to play Necrons... Just to be clear... at a GT... and make the top few spots...again with Necrons just to be clear... for you to believe it. I see.
Yeah, it doesn't matter whether you took Flayed ones or you didn't. That just isn't very likely.
And yeah. Let's hope they get a points decrease. Maybe you'd get your wish then. A weak maybe.
vict0988 wrote: Flayed Ones got 4 pts cheaper, if you can't top a tournament with them now you couldn't do well with them before either.
A flayed one bomb with deceiver, zahndrek and obyron is still 680 pts. And you need first turn
Compared to 840 it's a Doomsday Ark better. If Combat Doctrines and/or the best Marine sub-factions get nerfed Necrons could be top tier. I think Eldar are getting a lot of buffs to compensate for the flyer nerfs, Reece from FLG hinted at it at least. Custodes did not get any buffs which is very good news for Crons.
Kahi the Uncertain wrote: I just watched SS82's rundown of the new CA points values, and he read the Seraptek Heavy Construct at 325 points.
Surely that can't be right
That must be base points right? Before adding the costs for the weapon sets?
No, the weapons have a cost of 0. But he has to have misread it or something. 325 is far too low
Yeah just watched the video now and goodness me a 325 Seraptek, if true, is a completely braindead move by GW considering they left Kutlakh at 200, brought Imotekh down to 140 and the Monolith to 300. I'm gonna have to wait n see on this one...
The Tomb Sentinel and Tomb Stalker at 130 and 110 respectively have seen a decent drop though. Probably not enough to make them good, but maybe something to consider
Clearly not. Nothing of opinion. The Necron lists ranked high in GTs and Majors, as well as my experience playing various units, are what I take into consideration of what units make Necrons effective at a competitive level. If you're implying that Necrons are incapable of that then maybe you need to check the numerous sources of recent results on Necrons for yourself.
Some more reveals from CA, this time Necron melee weapons and wargear courtesty of reddit. Summary for those who hate reading blurry images or scrolling through youtube videos:
Voidblades - 4pts
Voidscythe - 12 (Definitely a winner imo, if only we had reliable transports...)
Warscythe - 9
Whip Coils - 4
Canoptek Cloak - 5
Chronometron - 15 (Hmmm)
Dispersion Shield - 6
Fabricator Claw Array - 5
Gloom Prism - 5
Nebuloscope - 2
Phylactery - 10
Resurrection Orb - 18 (Interesting, shame Warriors didn't get dropped otherwise it may have been the return of Silver Tide)
Shadowloom - 5
Shieldvanes - 3
The Tomb Sentinel and Tomb Stalker at 130 and 110 respectively have seen a decent drop though. Probably not enough to make them good, but maybe something to consider
Tomb Stalker isn't a bad piece at 110. They have decent mobility and all.
IanVanCheese wrote: Heading to a team tournament tomorrow, all four of us running Necrons. Rule of three covers the entire team, so we've got four weird lists:
and my list is the classic crons
Imotekh, Cryptek, Lord, 3 x 10 Tesla Immortals, 3 x DDA, 1 Triarch Stalker, 6 Destroyers, 5 Scarabs.
Not expecting to do well, but it'll be a laugh. Wish us luck.
Day 1 update:
Our team is 1-2. I'm 3-0-0, having faced Astra Militarum/Blood Angels mix, Night Lords and Raven Guard Centurion Spam. That last game was the only really strong list of the three, but I managed to kill key units and play the objectives. We've got some good guns to take marines on with, but we drop hard when they shoot back.
Warrior spam is having a bad time going 0-0-3.
Combat Crons are 1-1-1.
Weird Pylon list is also 0-0-3. Hasn't run into a single super heavy, knights seem to have dropped off hard in terms of popularity.
I'm afraid the necrons are going back into stasis after this tournament. 50% of the field is space marines, of which 60% of them are Iron Hands. Two of my teammates loses were to them and they both said they were the most boring, soul crushing games of their lives. I'm inclined to agree, though I'm pretty sure I'm facing IH tomorrow so I'll have a first hand account then.
Learned bit annoying tidbit today.Melta is not 2d6 pick highest. It's 2d6 discard one. Most often not relevant but vs necrons it has impact...
Used to think it's 2d6 pick highest but sure looking at opponents codex and my sisters codex there it is in plain writing. So melta rule is flat out boost vs necrons.
tneva82 wrote: Learned bit annoying tidbit today.Melta is not 2d6 pick highest. It's 2d6 discard one. Most often not relevant but vs necrons it has impact...
Used to think it's 2d6 pick highest but sure looking at opponents codex and my sisters codex there it is in plain writing. So melta rule is flat out boost vs necrons.
Your still making them take the low roll though which is a pretty funny defense.
tneva82 wrote: Learned bit annoying tidbit today.Melta is not 2d6 pick highest. It's 2d6 discard one. Most often not relevant but vs necrons it has impact...
Used to think it's 2d6 pick highest but sure looking at opponents codex and my sisters codex there it is in plain writing. So melta rule is flat out boost vs necrons.
It got changed with the new SM codex, Tau still use the old version though, it's only really relevant for Sisters and Tau. A good Tau player will know to stay more than 9" away from any vehicle he wants to shoot with fusion guns while Sisters actually get a benefit from being up close (assuming they are statistically literate. I never really liked the new QS, it's a bit too trollzy for my liking, my opponents always get miffed when their guns do nothing and in turn I get miffed when my vehicles get popped rather easily by a bunch of low damage shots.
IanVanCheese wrote: Heading to a team tournament tomorrow, all four of us running Necrons. Rule of three covers the entire team, so we've got four weird lists:
and my list is the classic crons
Imotekh, Cryptek, Lord, 3 x 10 Tesla Immortals, 3 x DDA, 1 Triarch Stalker, 6 Destroyers, 5 Scarabs.
Not expecting to do well, but it'll be a laugh. Wish us luck.
Final update on this.
Our team finished 7th out of 16. Not bad for an entirely Necron force I feel. I personally went 4-0-1. I lost my fourth game to Iron Hands, but it was a close match. The mission was Cut Off The Head and he made his Leviathan a character, gave it an intel point and marched it to the objective, but it took him until turn 4 to get there. Neither of us killed any characters so he was only winning by a point in my turn 5. I veiled up to snag linebreaker for the tie hoping the game would end, but alas it wasn't to be. Still, a really cool, cerebral game. I had a shot at killing the Leviathan since it was a little damaged and didn't have the Ironstone on it so I went at it with everything, but flubbed my rolls hard.
Final game was against our buddies from our club with their Imperial team. I ended up against Grey Knights on a sparse terrain board. It did not go well for him.
Happy with my results in the end. The pylon list went 0-0-5 (we ran into precisely 0 titanic units). Silver tide list went 1-0-4, so yet more proof that doesn't work. Combat necrons went 2-1-2, including a great win vs Imperial Fists Centurion castle - the board was heavy with terrain and the guy exposed his Intel characters, allowing our guy to snipe them with Wraiths.
Proud of the team overall. If the missions and terrain are on our side, "the necron list" can compete with most armies. Iron Hands and Eldar flying circus are rough though.
With the new points changes I’ve decided to break my 6-model destroyer unit into two counts-as heavy destroyer units with three models each. While I know higher numbers of shots rules over higher strength weapons in this edition, the point savings was significant IMO to make the change. Longer range is a nice bonus, and the smaller squads are easier to set up in cover.
Gnarlly wrote: With the new points changes I’ve decided to break my 6-model destroyer unit into two counts-as heavy destroyer units with three models each. While I know higher numbers of shots rules over higher strength weapons in this edition, the point savings was significant IMO to make the change. Longer range is a nice bonus, and the smaller squads are easier to set up in cover.
I think anyone currently rocking triple Doom Scythes should consider trading them out for 9 Heavy Destroyers. More reliable firepower, spreading threats, inherent rerolls, can be buffed by our characters, not reliant on a gimmick strat and to top it off, you still have 117pts to play with.
I'm looking at taking the above list up to 2K and Heavy Destroyers seem like the obvious additions.
tneva82 wrote: Learned bit annoying tidbit today.Melta is not 2d6 pick highest. It's 2d6 discard one. Most often not relevant but vs necrons it has impact...
Used to think it's 2d6 pick highest but sure looking at opponents codex and my sisters codex there it is in plain writing. So melta rule is flat out boost vs necrons.
Your still making them take the low roll though which is a pretty funny defense.
Well yes but you still have a choice. Any time he rolls 1 and 3(or 4), 1 and 6, 5 and 3 etc he benefits from melta rule as he can drop the worse ones(sweet spot being 3 and 4).
But no wonder I hadn't seen it before if it's change with numarines. Gee thanks GW for not having consistent weapon rules. Bloody bespoke rules.
tneva82 wrote: Learned bit annoying tidbit today.Melta is not 2d6 pick highest. It's 2d6 discard one. Most often not relevant but vs necrons it has impact...
Used to think it's 2d6 pick highest but sure looking at opponents codex and my sisters codex there it is in plain writing. So melta rule is flat out boost vs necrons.
Your still making them take the low roll though which is a pretty funny defense.
Well yes but you still have a choice. Any time he rolls 1 and 3(or 4), 1 and 6, 5 and 3 etc he benefits from melta rule as he can drop the worse ones(sweet spot being 3 and 4).
But no wonder I hadn't seen it before if it's change with numarines. Gee thanks GW for not having consistent weapon rules. Bloody bespoke rules.
Remember what Andykip said: USR are too confusing and we don't need consistency!
tneva82 wrote: Learned bit annoying tidbit today.Melta is not 2d6 pick highest. It's 2d6 discard one. Most often not relevant but vs necrons it has impact...
Used to think it's 2d6 pick highest but sure looking at opponents codex and my sisters codex there it is in plain writing. So melta rule is flat out boost vs necrons.
Your still making them take the low roll though which is a pretty funny defense.
Well yes but you still have a choice. Any time he rolls 1 and 3(or 4), 1 and 6, 5 and 3 etc he benefits from melta rule as he can drop the worse ones(sweet spot being 3 and 4).
But no wonder I hadn't seen it before if it's change with numarines. Gee thanks GW for not having consistent weapon rules. Bloody bespoke rules.
Remember what Andykip said: USR are too confusing and we don't need consistency!
This is actually a USR complaint: anytime you have USRs in a game as complex as this one, there will be inconsistent behaviors that arise--in particular when attempts at improvements are made (e.g., being allowed a choice as to which dice to keep changed from being forced to select a suboptimal 'choice').
This particular issue is less a USR/bespoke rules problem and more of a QC problem... setting aside how reasonably practical it is to 100% QC all the thousands of rules there are in this game.
Are Heavy Destroyers now useful for anti-tank? Comparing them to the Doomsday Ark, they seem more reliable, but don't have the Gauss Array. On the plus side, they have better manoeuvrability.
Darsath wrote: Are Heavy Destroyers now useful for anti-tank? Comparing them to the Doomsday Ark, they seem more reliable, but don't have the Gauss Array. On the plus side, they have better manoeuvrability.
Think of them as a replacement for the Doom Scythe, not the DDA. DDA is so flexible and quite hard to kill, Doom Scythe is inflexible and basically has one party trick that everyone knows to avoid.
I'm looking at cranking my 1750 pts list up to 2000 pts and adding 6 Heavy Destroyers seems like the obvious play. Given that the current meta is Iron Hands Tank/Flyer Spam, Eldar Flyer Spam or Raven Guard/Imperial Fist Centurion Spam - I think that Heavy Destroyers have finally come good. Just need to convert some up now. There's a great guide here for anyone looking to avoid the bendy finecast noodle guns: https://weemen.blogspot.com/2016/09/necron-heavy-gauss-cannon-conversion.html
Darsath wrote: Are Heavy Destroyers now useful for anti-tank? Comparing them to the Doomsday Ark, they seem more reliable, but don't have the Gauss Array. On the plus side, they have better manoeuvrability.
Think of them as a replacement for the Doom Scythe, not the DDA. DDA is so flexible and quite hard to kill, Doom Scythe is inflexible and basically has one party trick that everyone knows to avoid.
what is this party trick?
also, question about quantum shielding, when I attempt to roll lower than D3 damage, do I attempt to roll lower than the damage, or the dice roll? e.g a 4 is 2 damage, so, do I need a 3 or a 1?
Darsath wrote: Are Heavy Destroyers now useful for anti-tank? Comparing them to the Doomsday Ark, they seem more reliable, but don't have the Gauss Array. On the plus side, they have better manoeuvrability.
Think of them as a replacement for the Doom Scythe, not the DDA. DDA is so flexible and quite hard to kill, Doom Scythe is inflexible and basically has one party trick that everyone knows to avoid.
what is this party trick?
also, question about quantum shielding, when I attempt to roll lower than D3 damage, do I attempt to roll lower than the damage, or the dice roll? e.g a 4 is 2 damage, so, do I need a 3 or a 1?
The party trick is their Amalgamated Targeting Data stratagem, but it requires three Doom Scythes to pull it off so most enemies will just kill one first turn.
As to Quantum Shielding, you have to roll under the damage. So a 4 on D3 damage is 2 damage, so you need to roll a 1.
This is actually a USR complaint: anytime you have USRs in a game as complex as this one, there will be inconsistent behaviors that arise--in particular when attempts at improvements are made (e.g., being allowed a choice as to which dice to keep changed from being forced to select a suboptimal 'choice').
This particular issue is less a USR/bespoke rules problem and more of a QC problem... setting aside how reasonably practical it is to 100% QC all the thousands of rules there are in this game.
With USR this would not have happened. This happens exactly because LACK of USR's. And is precisely what I predicted would happen when GW introduced these bespoke rules. Quaranteed that something like this happens. So now we have marine and sister melta's that are benefits vs quantum, others that are drawback. All thanks to bespoke rules.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've seen that Conversion! It's brilliant and doesn't take much effort either.
Too bad there's not much tomb blade bits available in bitz stores. Just full sprues. I don't have spare tomb blade gauss weapons.
Darsath wrote: Are Heavy Destroyers now useful for anti-tank? Comparing them to the Doomsday Ark, they seem more reliable, but don't have the Gauss Array. On the plus side, they have better manoeuvrability.
Think of them as a replacement for the Doom Scythe, not the DDA. DDA is so flexible and quite hard to kill, Doom Scythe is inflexible and basically has one party trick that everyone knows to avoid.
I'm looking at cranking my 1750 pts list up to 2000 pts and adding 6 Heavy Destroyers seems like the obvious play. Given that the current meta is Iron Hands Tank/Flyer Spam, Eldar Flyer Spam or Raven Guard/Imperial Fist Centurion Spam - I think that Heavy Destroyers have finally come good. Just need to convert some up now. There's a great guide here for anyone looking to avoid the bendy finecast noodle guns: https://weemen.blogspot.com/2016/09/necron-heavy-gauss-cannon-conversion.html
I have had 9 Destroyer bodies laying around waiting for their time to be upgraded to Heavy Destroyers, I don't have any HGC bits so I'll probably do this. I hope I haven't used too many of my TB's gauss weapons.
Darsath wrote: Are Heavy Destroyers now useful for anti-tank? Comparing them to the Doomsday Ark, they seem more reliable, but don't have the Gauss Array. On the plus side, they have better manoeuvrability.
Think of them as a replacement for the Doom Scythe, not the DDA. DDA is so flexible and quite hard to kill, Doom Scythe is inflexible and basically has one party trick that everyone knows to avoid.
I'm looking at cranking my 1750 pts list up to 2000 pts and adding 6 Heavy Destroyers seems like the obvious play. Given that the current meta is Iron Hands Tank/Flyer Spam, Eldar Flyer Spam or Raven Guard/Imperial Fist Centurion Spam - I think that Heavy Destroyers have finally come good. Just need to convert some up now. There's a great guide here for anyone looking to avoid the bendy finecast noodle guns: https://weemen.blogspot.com/2016/09/necron-heavy-gauss-cannon-conversion.html
I have had 9 Destroyer bodies laying around waiting for their time to be upgraded to Heavy Destroyers, I don't have any HGC bits so I'll probably do this. I hope I haven't used too many of my TB's gauss weapons.
Get them form the immortal kit.
If you build 10 Tesla immortals, you have 10 left over gauss weapons.
It's also one of the cheapest kits for us.
( It's also a great resource for Necrons hands, should you need them )
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is what mine looks like:
Darsath wrote: Are Heavy Destroyers now useful for anti-tank? Comparing them to the Doomsday Ark, they seem more reliable, but don't have the Gauss Array. On the plus side, they have better manoeuvrability.
Think of them as a replacement for the Doom Scythe, not the DDA. DDA is so flexible and quite hard to kill, Doom Scythe is inflexible and basically has one party trick that everyone knows to avoid.
I'm looking at cranking my 1750 pts list up to 2000 pts and adding 6 Heavy Destroyers seems like the obvious play. Given that the current meta is Iron Hands Tank/Flyer Spam, Eldar Flyer Spam or Raven Guard/Imperial Fist Centurion Spam - I think that Heavy Destroyers have finally come good. Just need to convert some up now. There's a great guide here for anyone looking to avoid the bendy finecast noodle guns: https://weemen.blogspot.com/2016/09/necron-heavy-gauss-cannon-conversion.html
I have had 9 Destroyer bodies laying around waiting for their time to be upgraded to Heavy Destroyers, I don't have any HGC bits so I'll probably do this. I hope I haven't used too many of my TB's gauss weapons.
Get them form the immortal kit.
If you build 10 Tesla immortals, you have 10 left over gauss weapons.
It's also one of the cheapest kits for us.
( It's also a great resource for Necrons hands, should you need them )
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is what mine looks like:
Looks great. I'm going to do this, but double stack them to make the gun look really beefy. I'll post pics when/if it works out.
This is actually a USR complaint: anytime you have USRs in a game as complex as this one, there will be inconsistent behaviors that arise--in particular when attempts at improvements are made (e.g., being allowed a choice as to which dice to keep changed from being forced to select a suboptimal 'choice').
This particular issue is less a USR/bespoke rules problem and more of a QC problem... setting aside how reasonably practical it is to 100% QC all the thousands of rules there are in this game.
With USR this would not have happened. This happens exactly because LACK of USR's. And is precisely what I predicted would happen when GW introduced these bespoke rules. Quaranteed that something like this happens. So now we have marine and sister melta's that are benefits vs quantum, others that are drawback. All thanks to bespoke rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've seen that Conversion! It's brilliant and doesn't take much effort either.
Too bad there's not much tomb blade bits available in bitz stores. Just full sprues. I don't have spare tomb blade gauss weapons.
Well if you put together a couple of Tesla ones you would have spare parts.
I have been toying with the idea of more Destroyers for a while now.....
this might be the time
EDIT: Just for the record also, the actual HGC from the Stalker kit fits onto a Destroyer with minimal shaping of the rear plug to go into the shoulder socket.
I personally then put the other arm across to hold the front plug missile launcher style, but YMMV
Well if you put together a couple of Tesla ones you would have spare parts.
I have all weapons for tomb blades. For starters allows to finetune for plan. For second eventually gw will change balance making gauss king and tesla junk
Well if you put together a couple of Tesla ones you would have spare parts.
I have all weapons for tomb blades. For starters allows to finetune for plan. For second eventually gw will change balance making gauss king and tesla junk
Last edition I used 2 units of Tomb Blades with Tesla to camp objectives. Yep. That's about it.
I have all weapons for tomb blades. For starters allows to finetune for plan. For second eventually gw will change balance making gauss king and tesla junk
A lot of "on a 6+ something happens" rules shift towards unmodified roll. I wouldn't be surprised that Tesla will change to be unmodified too in the future (like in 9th edition codex, or before if they reprint codex).
My first Tomb Blades (unpainted) were from 5th, when Gauss was the only good weapon. I've since added another unit of tesla,i'm barely finishing painting right know. I think Gauss will be the new hotness when my last Tesla Tomb Blade will be finished and i will have to start again
Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.
Dynas wrote: Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.
I really think Doom Scythes are too inflexible/one trick to be all that useful. How often does a wing of three of them make their points back these days? The only army that the MW bomb ruins is Tau. Outside that strat, they are painfully overcosted and frankly ineffective. For the same points, you can get 9 heavy destroyers and a ghost ark. That's a no brainer for me.
Dynas wrote: Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.
I really think Doom Scythes are too inflexible/one trick to be all that useful. How often does a wing of three of them make their points back these days? The only army that the MW bomb ruins is Tau. Outside that strat, they are painfully overcosted and frankly ineffective. For the same points, you can get 9 heavy destroyers and a ghost ark. That's a no brainer for me.
I'm not saying that's wrong, but arguing"making their points back" is misleading in it's nature. There are important qualities that can never be measured in points. Flyers can keep a knight or a unit of genestealers from moving in a key direction. And they soak up fire that most surely would be better aimed at other units of yours.
Dynas wrote: Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.
I really think Doom Scythes are too inflexible/one trick to be all that useful. How often does a wing of three of them make their points back these days? The only army that the MW bomb ruins is Tau. Outside that strat, they are painfully overcosted and frankly ineffective. For the same points, you can get 9 heavy destroyers and a ghost ark. That's a no brainer for me.
I'm not saying that's wrong, but arguing"making their points back" is misleading in it's nature. There are important qualities that can never be measured in points. Flyers can keep a knight or a unit of genestealers from moving in a key direction. And they soak up fire that most surely would be better aimed at other units of yours.
True enough, but in the current meta I don't think either of those threats is our primary concern. That spare ghost ark I mentioned can tie up genestealers/knights since it can turbo up the field. Doom Scythes are too squishy for their points. We have scarabs for screening, probably the best screen in the game. Our advantage vs marines and flyers is big guns and lots of them, I think other units handle that role better than Doom Scythes. Which is a shame because they're cool af.
Dynas wrote: Even with all these changes, I honestly still think the 6 Doom list with wraiths, TB, or Destroyers for flavor is still going to be our only viable comp list. Its a shame warriors didn't get any love.
I really think Doom Scythes are too inflexible/one trick to be all that useful. How often does a wing of three of them make their points back these days? The only army that the MW bomb ruins is Tau. Outside that strat, they are painfully overcosted and frankly ineffective. For the same points, you can get 9 heavy destroyers and a ghost ark. That's a no brainer for me.
I'm not saying that's wrong, but arguing"making their points back" is misleading in it's nature. There are important qualities that can never be measured in points. Flyers can keep a knight or a unit of genestealers from moving in a key direction. And they soak up fire that most surely would be better aimed at other units of yours.
True enough, but in the current meta I don't think either of those threats is our primary concern. That spare ghost ark I mentioned can tie up genestealers/knights since it can turbo up the field. Doom Scythes are too squishy for their points. We have scarabs for screening, probably the best screen in the game. Our advantage vs marines and flyers is big guns and lots of them, I think other units handle that role better than Doom Scythes. Which is a shame because they're cool af.
Don't forget the flyers can't even be chargeed by most melee units
In general, they can fly up in his face, half the times getting off their stratagem to wreck havoc, bit it leaves him struggling in his starting blocks, which is a valuable thing. While you get to walk up and dominate the midfield.
Nothing is of course black and white like this, but if you swap all that out for backfield lingering heavy destroyers, you need to plan around this, and load up on wraiths, and or tomb blades, and likely multiple ghost arks - Planning that has little to do with simply making points back.
Agree, you need to plan but I'd question how often we're seeing melee threats these days - at least not conventional melee threats that just march up the board.
Our flyers are also a lot worse at screening because they can't hover and can't do the eldar double turn. Then consider their cost vs the cost of the marine/eldar flyers. We're already on the back foot, I don't think we can afford to be sinking 450 pts into a gimmick that only works half the time and even then, is only effective against castles.
Also Heavy Destroyers don't have to hide in back. They move 10, fly and don't need support units to be effective.
I was iffy on Doom Scythes pre CA, now I'm convinced they're a trap.
Yeah they are definitely not without weaknesses and tricky to play well. I admit I did not see them rising to power the way they did.
I have only ever played them once, and they did all those things I said, to 5 leman russes, -1 to hit hurting the AM somewhat. It took him till third turn before he was ready to move up his remaining tanks, and at that point my Tesla immortals and tlmb blades were in key position to subdue him while my remaining DDA was blasting him. Called it shortly afterwards. Anecdotal but I remember I was impressed by the way that let me dominate him. (Got off the stratagem twice though, so there was that)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I even showed and told back then:
torblind wrote: Yeah they are definitely not without weaknesses and tricky to play well. I admit I did not see them rising to power the way they did.
I have only ever played them once, and they did all those things I said, to 5 leman russes, -1 to hit hurting the AM somewhat. It took him till third turn before he was ready to move up his remaining tanks, and at that point my Tesla immortals and tlmb blades were in key position to subdue him while my remaining DDA was blasting him. Called it shortly afterwards. Anecdotal but I remember I was impressed by the way that let me dominate him. (Got off the stratagem twice though, so there was that)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I even showed and told back then:
How often are you seeing Guard tank columns in competitive play these days? I'm not denying they have their uses. What I'm saying is that in the current competitive meta, they've lost their place. Marines and Eldar will blow them out of the sky without breaking a sweat. Even Tau can mitigate their damage these days as they're taking a more aggressive stance with their riptides. GSC and Orks will struggle to get past them on turn one, which is nice but again we have other units that can screen for us.
Not saying you can't use them, not even saying you can't have great success with them. But I think they've dropped down the tier list while other things have moved up past them.
Time will tell of course, CA2019 isn't even out yet but I think we'll see Scythes drop out of the top competitive lists.
The only way I've made Doom Scythes work is as Sautekh and even then they are a hit and miss for what they are supposed to do. The -1 to hit for any other dynasty is hard to deal with.
D3 shots just isn't enough, similar to the Demolisher cannon buff this should be bumped up to D6 or even more ambitious back to the old rules where you'd draw a line between two points and anything underneath takes a single hit (similar to Mortarion's Lantern)
Doom Scythes are one of our best tools against these Thunderfire Cannons which most marines bring these days.
The D3 shots aren't so great, and are hardly used when you pull of the strat, to why I prefer to put them under Mephrit. Give the Tesla shots AP 1 and they can do decent work to backfield units.
I have been running 2 DDA and a 3 man squad of heavy destroyers for the last year and the heavy destroyers have been a very consistent element in my list every game. I kit bashed my DDA's and I am reticent to say I'll never assemble another, but it's probably the truth because those models are a real PITA but that forced me to use the heavy destroyers.
On paper you would think they would be fragile, but that unit is a real pain for my opponents. It is easily hidden and always gets a volley off, usually from cover, and it is WAY more consistent then the DDA's. They always have their 3 shots which reroll 1's naturally. If my normal unit of destroyers dies I can always use elimination protocols on them as well, which normally results in 3d6 damage on something.
I already had purchased 6 more destroyers speculatively, and now I am going to be making them two more units of heavies. At 37 a pop, that's insane efficiency.
To weigh in on the air wing of Doomscythes, I'll say the psychological impact of the strat can be big, but the damage output is never great on a worthy opponent. Generally you catch a dude off guard now and again, but then they learn and it never happens, or when it does they are baiting you. By that I mean for example, I played a mirror match at a tourny recently and the other necron player had a doom wing, I put imotekh and a lord next to my destoryers and my tomb blades to entice him, he took the bait and killed the lord who got back up with resurrection protocols and ended up killing 2 bikes and 2 destroyers. I rolled reanimation in my turn and got both destroyers and 1 bike back then killed 2 of the three doomscythes in return just with my secondary fire that was out of range or line of sight of his troops.
Doomscythes are still solid but actually in my last few games I have just brought a pair. I use them to keep characters honest and/or screen my lines from ninja warsuits. I think that's where they shine, a screen that can't be assaulted by most things that are popular in the meta ATM.
In the past I often found the normal shots from the deathrays did more then the mortals anyway and it didn't force me into clumping my fliers in front of their army.
I also want to say stalkers are solid at 115. Thats 2 more heavy guas shots that provide rerolls for your Dscythes or DDA's which is pretty sweet. For some reason people ALWAYS dump fire into mine when I take them. No idea why since the buff is OK, but not game changing but folks treat them like marker lights from tau. I always enjoy it since they can really soak shots being a rare 3+ save vehicle, especially if you burn a quantum deflection.
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elook wrote: Doom Scythes are one of our best tools against these Thunderfire Cannons which most marines bring these days.
The D3 shots aren't so great, and are hardly used when you pull of the strat, to why I prefer to put them under Mephrit. Give the Tesla shots AP 1 and they can do decent work to backfield units.
This is true, but also goes along with my point before. You don't want to use the strat hear, and I feel 3 is a hefty sink.
Plus as a side note my army runs no troops anymore. I run with 2 6 man destroyer units and a heavy destroyer unit, plus a 9 man gaus blaster tomb blade unit along with my vehicles. With the CA cuts I may get to squeeze some scarabs in. I actually don't mind thunderfire canons as much as a normal list with immortals for obvious reasons, I can't be tremor shelled, and my units are WAY tougher and shrug most of the fire. I came to the conclusion I was sick of wasting points on troops and HQ tax for CP I didn't really need. With Imotehk my list has 6 CP and that's all I need.
I also want to say stalkers are solid at 115. Thats 2 more heavy guass shots that provide rerolls for your Dscythes or DDA's which is pretty sweet. For some reason people ALWAYS dump fire into mine when I take them. No idea why since the buff is OK, but not game changing but folks treat them like marker lights from tau. I always enjoy it since they can really soak shots being a rare 3+ save vehicle, especially if you burn a quantum deflection.
Agree on this, I've been using one since last CA, the further drop was just a nice surprise. Reroll 1s on your DDAs can be huge and it's a great screen in it's own right because it's bloody huge. Also agree on it it being target priority whenever I bring it. i think people focus them down because they have less wounds than DDAs so they're less of a pain to kill. Had great success with mine at the team tournament recently though, including tying up Mephiston, Smash Captain and chaplain for a turn in combat.
Not sure I'm ready to give up my immortals for tomb blades yet though, but we'll see. I play mainly CA missions over ITC and I really like to have troops on the ground. I can see a decent argument for shifting to Tomb blades though.
The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.
The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:
To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):
1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]
Which is:
1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49
This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.
I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,
I agree with the triple doomscythe analysis. I've been using them for quite a while, and it's quite seldom that my opponent manages to kill even one in the first turn. The threat they pose to castles is game changing.
Charge blocking is difficult to pull off if you want them to not fly off the board and be effective on turn 4.
Best of all is that they are amazing character snipers! You can fly them directly within 1" of a character making it the closest target. Most characters will die to combined shots of the Tesla destructor and Death ray.
So almost all of this is forcing your opponent to spread out (to avoid the strategem), shooting at a -1 to hit target at long range. But then conversely, they want to clump together to protect their characters from getting sniped by just a single DS.
While they are altering their game-plan to prevent this, you have the benefit of being reactive to their mistakes, or just flying around killing stuff if there are no better options.
How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?
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DogHeadGod wrote: Put the doom croissants away and break out the premier Primaris killer + anti armor choice of the Necrons.. Tesseract Arks.
Seriously, why aren't these more of a thing? I just started running 3, with gauss cannon, and it's.. amazing.
Likely cash. Would have those if they weren"t so expensive. With sisters incoming doesn't look i'l' get them fast :( nor heavy destroyers. 9 costs 200e...ugh
tneva82 wrote: How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?
Mostly placement.
* Put them in a corner out of their range of their weapons
* Sometimes you go first
* Terrain is your friend, smaller units can have LOS blocked by mid-table terrain
* Sometimes you laugh as they pour their entire army into a single target at -1, leaving the rest of your army unscathed
* Putting them out of range forces them to move forward into our medium range where Tesla, Gauss and Assault are threats
Even if they kill one, the other two are still quite effective as I've detailed above. Hard to argue given the success these have seen in a competitive environment.
Though to get maximum effectiveness in turns 1-3, I find they are difficult to bring to bear in turn 5 and 6, so it takes a lot of pre-planning or willingness to sacrifice the DS to make an important kill.
dapperbandit wrote: The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.
Sort of, it's only a 3 inch radius so they can VERY easily avoid the blast range then collapse into aura reroll range and jut kill a single flier.
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sieGermans wrote: The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:
To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):
1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]
Which is:
1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49
This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.
I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,
Your factoring in the 40 point weapon which has value in it's own even if it doesn't get the reroll. I mean, I doubt I am the only one that thinks 115 is solid even before you consider the reroll buff. The rerolls are just icing really, if you put damage onto a target with the stalker it means a single DDA is much more likely to finish the kill, allowing another to shoot elsewhere.
dapperbandit wrote: The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.
Sort of, it's only a 3 inch radius so they can VERY easily avoid the blast range then collapse into aura reroll range and jut kill a single flier.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sieGermans wrote: The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:
To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):
1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]
Which is:
1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49
This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.
I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,
Your factoring in the 40 point weapon which has value in it's own even if it doesn't get the reroll. I mean, I doubt I am the only one that thinks 115 is solid even before you consider the reroll buff. The rerolls are just icing really, if you put damage onto a target with the stalker it means a single DDA is much more likely to finish the kill, allowing another to shoot elsewhere.
You don't have to damage it, just declare it a target for shooting.
tneva82 wrote: How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?
Mostly placement.
* Put them in a corner out of their range of their weapons
* Sometimes you go first
* Terrain is your friend, smaller units can have LOS blocked by mid-table terrain
* Sometimes you laugh as they pour their entire army into a single target at -1, leaving the rest of your army unscathed
* Putting them out of range forces them to move forward into our medium range where Tesla, Gauss and Assault are threats
Even if they kill one, the other two are still quite effective as I've detailed above. Hard to argue given the success these have seen in a competitive environment.
Though to get maximum effectiveness in turns 1-3, I find they are difficult to bring to bear in turn 5 and 6, so it takes a lot of pre-planning or willingness to sacrifice the DS to make an important kill.
This seems extremely unlikely in my area at least. The last time I ran three was against admech, I took the bait he provided and shot the strat off hitting castellans, las chickens, 2 units of breachers and two characters. When the dust settled I scratched the castellans who promptly healed to full, whiffed on the breachers (3 man teams) and killed one chicken and took one down to a single wound, which also healed. In response he shot down all three planes with less then half his army, probably closer to 1/3 actually. Upon reflection after the game we both agreed the strat was a total trap, ironically I already explained the theory pregame to him which is why he set up the way he did, I took the bait willingly because it was a toon up game for a tourny. We also concluded that it pulls the planes into a poor position, He set up second (which is what you want so you get first turn to use the strat) and he did it in a way that my planes all had to fly into a grouping in the middle, top of his deployment in order to be within 6 of eachother to fullfill the strat requirement. This meant even had he ignored them, the way he moved up and to the left flank meant all three planes would have had to bank hard right and all but one would have been in range, and all three would spend two more turns circling back around.
I don't want to come smug here, but if your playing seasoned well rounded players, they know exactly how to position in order to force this problem which is why it generally devastates casual game armies or laid back opponents who are caught unaware but falls flat against the better players. I still like the doomscythe for my tool kit as I explained above, I just won't bother with the strat since where I play is not falling for it, or the strat is just too weak. It is a 50/50 roll on other single targets and a 1/3 shot on characters. Verse multi wound infantry (which is everywhere now) it just doesn't hit hard enough. It kills an average of 3 intercessors, 1.3 centurions or 2 aggressors. Not sure I'd consider that a win at 450 points and 1CP.
I usually splash 2 in to keep characters and artillery honest and to move block, I really wish they had a set 3 or even 2 shots.
dapperbandit wrote: The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.
Sort of, it's only a 3 inch radius so they can VERY easily avoid the blast range then collapse into aura reroll range and jut kill a single flier.
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sieGermans wrote: The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:
To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):
1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]
Which is:
1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49
This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.
I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,
Your factoring in the 40 point weapon which has value in it's own even if it doesn't get the reroll. I mean, I doubt I am the only one that thinks 115 is solid even before you consider the reroll buff. The rerolls are just icing really, if you put damage onto a target with the stalker it means a single DDA is much more likely to finish the kill, allowing another to shoot elsewhere.
You don't have to damage it, just declare it a target for shooting.
Yea I know, that isn't what I was saying. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't provide the reroll to itself. I was also saying he shouldn't be looking at the model only as a means to providing said reroll, the platform is decent at 115 all by itself.
tneva82 wrote: How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?
Mostly placement.
* Put them in a corner out of their range of their weapons
* Sometimes you go first
* Terrain is your friend, smaller units can have LOS blocked by mid-table terrain
* Sometimes you laugh as they pour their entire army into a single target at -1, leaving the rest of your army unscathed
* Putting them out of range forces them to move forward into our medium range where Tesla, Gauss and Assault are threats
Even if they kill one, the other two are still quite effective as I've detailed above. Hard to argue given the success these have seen in a competitive environment.
Though to get maximum effectiveness in turns 1-3, I find they are difficult to bring to bear in turn 5 and 6, so it takes a lot of pre-planning or willingness to sacrifice the DS to make an important kill.
This seems extremely unlikely in my area at least. The last time I ran three was against admech, I took the bait he provided and shot the strat off hitting castellans, las chickens, 2 units of breachers and two characters. When the dust settled I scratched the castellans who promptly healed to full, whiffed on the breachers (3 man teams) and killed one chicken and took one down to a single wound, which also healed. In response he shot down all three planes with less then half his army, probably closer to 1/3 actually. Upon reflection after the game we both agreed the strat was a total trap, ironically I already explained the theory pregame to him which is why he set up the way he did, I took the bait willingly because it was a toon up game for a tourny. We also concluded that it pulls the planes into a poor position, He set up second (which is what you want so you get first turn to use the strat) and he did it in a way that my planes all had to fly into a grouping in the middle, top of his deployment in order to be within 6 of eachother to fullfill the strat requirement. This meant even had he ignored them, the way he moved up and to the left flank meant all three planes would have had to bank hard right and all but one would have been in range, and all three would spend two more turns circling back around.
I don't want to come smug here, but if your playing seasoned well rounded players, they know exactly how to position in order to force this problem which is why it generally devastates casual game armies or laid back opponents who are caught unaware but falls flat against the better players. I still like the doomscythe for my tool kit as I explained above, I just won't bother with the strat since where I play is not falling for it, or the strat is just too weak. It is a 50/50 roll on other single targets and a 1/3 shot on characters. Verse multi wound infantry (which is everywhere now) it just doesn't hit hard enough. It kills an average of 3 intercessors, 1.3 centurions or 2 aggressors. Not sure I'd consider that a win at 450 points and 1CP.
I usually splash 2 in to keep characters and artillery honest and to move block, I really wish they had a set 3 or even 2 shots.
dapperbandit wrote: The Doom Scythe thing still does a job even if your opponent knows to deploy to avoid it - they're still dividing their forces and potentially losing out on castle buffs. But yes there are potentially better things to get for the points.
Sort of, it's only a 3 inch radius so they can VERY easily avoid the blast range then collapse into aura reroll range and jut kill a single flier.
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sieGermans wrote: The math logic on Stalker is pretty straightforward; especially now with competitively costed Heavy Destroyers:
To get it’s points back it has to benefit (on the assumption of BS3 for all other units):
1/6 * 2/3 * [Total Point Cost of all expected benefitting units] = 115 - [Point Cost value of Stalker guns on alternative platform (e.g. 2x HDestroyer, 37x2 - (recursive value of rerolls 1 to hit) = ca. 4x2)]
Which is:
1/9 * [Point value of benefitting units] = 49
This helps you evaluate whether it is worth a Stalker, or just another whole copy of the given unit you’re planning to buff. For example, it takes 2 DDAs benefitting every turn before the Stalker is worth it (assuming nothing else will also be getting the benefit each turn). Etc.
I quite like Stalkers, and I think they can work out; but as a force multiplier it is a deliberated decision,
Your factoring in the 40 point weapon which has value in it's own even if it doesn't get the reroll. I mean, I doubt I am the only one that thinks 115 is solid even before you consider the reroll buff. The rerolls are just icing really, if you put damage onto a target with the stalker it means a single DDA is much more likely to finish the kill, allowing another to shoot elsewhere.
You don't have to damage it, just declare it a target for shooting.
Yea I know, that isn't what I was saying. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't provide the reroll to itself. I was also saying he shouldn't be looking at the model only as a means to providing said reroll, the platform is decent at 115 all by itself.
The reroll criteria was being applied as a detrimental offset to the comparison against the Heavy Destroyer platform. In other words, value the guns as if they were almost as good as heavy Destroyers, where the ‘almost’ part is that HDs get reroll 1s naturally.
And the platform being “good on its own” is based on that same logic. It’s why I compared the benefit versus it’s adjusted cost, rather than the cost itself.
Tagging on the conversation:
Doesn't the Stalker synergize well with our two (arguably) best units incredibly well? With the CA points now, it seems two different routes make sense:
Keep 3 DDA and 3 DS with a Stalker or two.
Or
Run newly cheaper 3x3 Heavy Ds with a new cheaper D Lord. The reroll wounds plus reroll hits of 1 baked in, seems strong anti everything Marines. Is he worth the buff on his own? Run him with SoL for few more shots or charge in with a Warscythe?
Or go nuts and run it all? Seems like oppressive firepower.
Red Corsair wrote: I have been running 2 DDA and a 3 man squad of heavy destroyers for the last year and the heavy destroyers have been a very consistent element in my list every game. I kit bashed my DDA's and I am reticent to say I'll never assemble another, but it's probably the truth because those models are a real PITA but that forced me to use the heavy destroyers.
On paper you would think they would be fragile, but that unit is a real pain for my opponents. It is easily hidden and always gets a volley off, usually from cover, and it is WAY more consistent then the DDA's. They always have their 3 shots which reroll 1's naturally. If my normal unit of destroyers dies I can always use elimination protocols on them as well, which normally results in 3d6 damage on something.
Kind of blew me away here but I thought I was the only one running heavy destoyers. =D
Since the last CA my basic 2k list has been
2 Overloads
1 Cryptek
1 Lord
3x 10 Immortals
Nightbringer
10 S/B Lychguard
2x 4 Scarabs
2x 3 Heavy Destroters
2x DDA
I only really play with friends but I havent lost a game all year. The Heavy Destoyers are pretty tanky, assuming you deploy well, and generally get a kill a turn.
Right now I am thinking of getting another DDA or a blob of Flayed ones with the CA changes. I might changed to Stormlord as well.
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tneva82 wrote: How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?
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DogHeadGod wrote: Put the doom croissants away and break out the premier Primaris killer + anti armor choice of the Necrons.. Tesseract Arks.
Seriously, why aren't these more of a thing? I just started running 3, with gauss cannon, and it's.. amazing.
Likely cash. Would have those if they weren"t so expensive. With sisters incoming doesn't look i'l' get them fast :( nor heavy destroyers. 9 costs 200e...ugh
Yeah its the same thing with sniper drones. I have a friend that takes 3x 9 and they are just deadly. But......they are expensive cash wise.
tneva82 wrote: How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?
I don't want to come smug here, but if your playing seasoned well rounded players,
Sorry, but you've been here long enough to know, that any time you pull the "playing against seasoned players" card, you're going to come off as smug. I could equally say that you simply don't have the practice/skill playing them, and it would be equally offensive.
It could also come down to the rest of your army composition, or perhaps the amount or style of terrain. All those are considerations. Honestly, it's not a given that using the strategem is always the right choice. Sometimes you'll do more damage just using the death rays. Forcing your opponent to change their play style is an advantage before you even set them on the table.
So you got suckered, it happens sometimes to the best of us, that doesn't change their effectiveness. DS are an excellent tool, and I as I said before, the prevalence of them in the competitive meta makes it pointless to argue against. Maybe they don't work for you, or the lists you've come across, but look to the meta, it's a pretty good indication that if something is taken in 3s very commonly, it's going to be a pretty good unit.
Red Corsair wrote: I have been running 2 DDA and a 3 man squad of heavy destroyers for the last year and the heavy destroyers have been a very consistent element in my list every game. I kit bashed my DDA's and I am reticent to say I'll never assemble another, but it's probably the truth because those models are a real PITA but that forced me to use the heavy destroyers.
On paper you would think they would be fragile, but that unit is a real pain for my opponents. It is easily hidden and always gets a volley off, usually from cover, and it is WAY more consistent then the DDA's. They always have their 3 shots which reroll 1's naturally. If my normal unit of destroyers dies I can always use elimination protocols on them as well, which normally results in 3d6 damage on something.
Kind of blew me away here but I thought I was the only one running heavy destoyers. =D
Since the last CA my basic 2k list has been
2 Overloads
1 Cryptek
1 Lord
3x 10 Immortals
Nightbringer
10 S/B Lychguard
2x 4 Scarabs
2x 3 Heavy Destroters
2x DDA
I only really play with friends but I havent lost a game all year. The Heavy Destoyers are pretty tanky, assuming you deploy well, and generally get a kill a turn.
Right now I am thinking of getting another DDA or a blob of Flayed ones with the CA changes. I might changed to Stormlord as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DogHeadGod wrote: Put the doom croissants away and break out the premier Primaris killer + anti armor choice of the Necrons.. Tesseract Arks.
Seriously, why aren't these more of a thing? I just started running 3, with gauss cannon, and it's.. amazing.
Likely cash. Would have those if they weren"t so expensive. With sisters incoming doesn't look i'l' get them fast :( nor heavy destroyers. 9 costs 200e...ugh
Yeah its the same thing with sniper drones. I have a friend that takes 3x 9 and they are just deadly. But......they are expensive cash wise.
Yeah, my list has had a full unit of Heavy Destroyers plus a couple DDA's for quite some time too.
I used to run a Spearhead of ×3 3 Heavy Destroyers and Stormlord. Back when I completely misread the Strat for the additional MWBD and nobody else noticed, that was 9 Lascannons basically never missing and that's pretty cool.
barontuman wrote: the prevalence of them in the competitive meta makes it pointless to argue against. Maybe they don't work for you, or the lists you've come across, but look to the meta, it's a pretty good indication that if something is taken in 3s very commonly, it's going to be a pretty good unit.
Most of the meta copy what the successful lists do, to be fair. It's quite easy for good units to be overlooked, or units to be overepresented just because a few top players used them. Anyway, time will tell - let's see what Necron tournament lists look like in a few months time. Making good progress on my first heavy destroyer conversion made from Immortal Gauss Blasters.
Basically turn one surround them with HtH units which are relatively hard to kill, while the HDs take back and midfield objectives. It's only got 5CP to play with, but it really doesn't rely on CP anyway. These are all my favorite units from previous editions and I'm glad to be putting them on the tabletop again. I don't think it'll be super competitive, but 18 wraiths always give my opponents fits, which makes it all worthwhile!
Of course it's the epitome of spam for this edition, but, you know, playing CC Necrons? Gotta give them some latitude.
Novokh Wraiths and Scarabs are scary. Good luck! Your list doesn't specify a Code or WL trait, a DLord with the Nov Trait is great bumping everyone up with that many attacks. I've had some success with that in the past pre CA even.
Has anyone tried double batallion? I'm thinking about the following but I don't know if Necrons need the CP.
Imotekh, Lord with sword, Cloaktek, Chronotek
6x5 Teslamortals (one group with 7 to fill out points)
2 DDAs, 2 Tessarks, 3 DScythes.
wisetiger7 wrote: Has anyone tried double batallion? I'm thinking about the following but I don't know if Necrons need the CP.
Imotekh, Lord with sword, Cloaktek, Chronotek
6x5 Teslamortals (one group with 7 to fill out points)
2 DDAs, 2 Tessarks, 3 DScythes.
My personal experience is that small squads of immortals give up their advantages in both res protocols and in MWBD. Which means that now both your HQs and your troops are simply tax as opposed to viable threats that have to be dealt with. YMMV.
wisetiger7 wrote: Has anyone tried double batallion? I'm thinking about the following but I don't know if Necrons need the CP.
Imotekh, Lord with sword, Cloaktek, Chronotek
6x5 Teslamortals (one group with 7 to fill out points)
2 DDAs, 2 Tessarks, 3 DScythes.
My personal experience is that small squads of immortals give up their advantages in both res protocols and in MWBD. Which means that now both your HQs and your troops are simply tax as opposed to viable threats that have to be dealt with. YMMV.
Agree'd I would highly recommend taking full squads if you can. The only time I dont is if I am shaving points to fit 1 more thing in.
Paying for Reanimation and never being able to use it is really bad.
wisetiger7 wrote: Has anyone tried double batallion? I'm thinking about the following but I don't know if Necrons need the CP.
Imotekh, Lord with sword, Cloaktek, Chronotek
6x5 Teslamortals (one group with 7 to fill out points)
2 DDAs, 2 Tessarks, 3 DScythes.
In this scenario I'd rather drop the 3 Dscythes and bump each Tesla unit to full 10 man for the same cost.
Since you're running Sautekh the scythes are better than what they normally are but in my experience never make their points in reality and the stratagem you want to them for is lackluster and can fail hard easily for such an investment in points and CP
wisetiger7 wrote: Has anyone tried double batallion? I'm thinking about the following but I don't know if Necrons need the CP.
Imotekh, Lord with sword, Cloaktek, Chronotek
6x5 Teslamortals (one group with 7 to fill out points)
2 DDAs, 2 Tessarks, 3 DScythes.
wisetiger7 wrote: Has anyone tried double batallion? I'm thinking about the following but I don't know if Necrons need the CP.
Imotekh, Lord with sword, Cloaktek, Chronotek
6x5 Teslamortals (one group with 7 to fill out points)
2 DDAs, 2 Tessarks, 3 DScythes.
My personal experience is that small squads of immortals give up their advantages in both res protocols and in MWBD. Which means that now both your HQs and your troops are simply tax as opposed to viable threats that have to be dealt with. YMMV.
Agree'd I would highly recommend taking full squads if you can. The only time I dont is if I am shaving points to fit 1 more thing in.
Paying for Reanimation and never being able to use it is really bad.
Is it really bad?
How many successful reanimation rolls do you make in a typical game of yours? If I win or loose, I make really few.
wisetiger7 wrote: Has anyone tried double batallion? I'm thinking about the following but I don't know if Necrons need the CP.
Imotekh, Lord with sword, Cloaktek, Chronotek
6x5 Teslamortals (one group with 7 to fill out points)
2 DDAs, 2 Tessarks, 3 DScythes.
My personal experience is that small squads of immortals give up their advantages in both res protocols and in MWBD. Which means that now both your HQs and your troops are simply tax as opposed to viable threats that have to be dealt with. YMMV.
Agree'd I would highly recommend taking full squads if you can. The only time I dont is if I am shaving points to fit 1 more thing in.
Paying for Reanimation and never being able to use it is really bad.
Is it really bad?
How many successful reanimation rolls do you make in a typical game of yours? If I win or loose, I make really few.
A surprising number to be honest. Enemies will almost always kill their priority targets, but they spare guns they have left is often only enough to plink off a few dudes. Getting them back is nothing to sniff at, and as the above said, you're paying for the ability, you might as well use it.
Also, I question double battalion because we don't really have enough good strats to justify it. Like you'll pop the D Scythe strat once and quantum deflection every turn in that list, but beyond that you only need a couple for rerolls.
Double Battalion means 4 HQs and 6 Troops, probably our two worst slots with elites. If you're going for CP, why? Which strats are you needing 14 CP for? When people whine about our book, this is the exact problem: over priced HQs and troops with only really 2 niche strats that are used.
Skip it and lean into our strengths... Or at least not our clear weaknesses.
1CP for reroll, 1CP reanimate killed character, 1CP quantum deflection, 1CP damage control override, 2CP methodical destruction, 1CP for removing cover bonus (huge against units who get +2), 1CP to charge after advancing, 1CP for MWBD twice, 1CP for self destruction of scarabs. That's already 10CP. Necrons can use 10+ CP, but the tax paying for it, isn't worth it.
I'm specifically talking about Destroyer strat and ATD for the Scythes. I forgot about double MWBD because I don't play that much infantry and use Immotek. My command points are never an issue due to Immotek and regaining. I end up using most of my CP for rerolls, like number of shots on big cannons.
I think there are more ways to play Crons than just Doom/Doom/Destroy, but every time I've run troop heavy and bought into infantry, I know I am over paying for really no reason. Our troops are much easier to kill than plaguebears and cost so much more... And armies are set to handle 90 plaguebearers.
... you're paying for the ability, you might as well use it.
You mileage is definitely allowed to vary in what reanimation gives you and not, but playing into it because you pay for it, is straight out wrogn.
You play into the strengths that are worth it. Fulfilling some half-measure design feature doesn't win you games. Winning games wins you games. That's your focus.
Being prepaid, it might come out as a strength that is worth it in the end for you, but its the wrong way to look at things.
Don't you guys think Necrons will be a bit better now?
With the alpha strike meta of last year, necrons were useless, but now, after the CA and SM 2W meta, fights may be longer and necrons may have a place there.
tneva82 wrote: How your opponents fail to kill single soft target?
I don't want to come smug here, but if your playing seasoned well rounded players,
Sorry, but you've been here long enough to know, that any time you pull the "playing against seasoned players" card, you're going to come off as smug. I could equally say that you simply don't have the practice/skill playing them, and it would be equally offensive.
It could also come down to the rest of your army composition, or perhaps the amount or style of terrain. All those are considerations. Honestly, it's not a given that using the strategem is always the right choice. Sometimes you'll do more damage just using the death rays. Forcing your opponent to change their play style is an advantage before you even set them on the table.
So you got suckered, it happens sometimes to the best of us, that doesn't change their effectiveness. DS are an excellent tool, and I as I said before, the prevalence of them in the competitive meta makes it pointless to argue against. Maybe they don't work for you, or the lists you've come across, but look to the meta, it's a pretty good indication that if something is taken in 3s very commonly, it's going to be a pretty good unit.
You had to clip the entire section I wrote justifying my statement in order to go on that rant
I never said DS were bad, in fact I still run a pair often for the reasons I have already stated, but in any tournament game I have played in the last year, that strat has only been a win more button on players who were already losing badly on match up (40k is still very rock, paper, scissors).
You said a viable tactic was corner deploying (often a solid idea) but then went on to say you would have the fliers mid table and or watch the other guy empty his army into one only to fail. This just doesn't hold up to my experience with 8th edition. It's awesome you play on tables that have so much LOS blocking terrain in the middle, even on good tables where I have played your lucky to get enough to block your infantry let alone 3 fliers. But, I really struggle to believe strong opponents and/or lists are failing to kill your Doom Scythes. Sure I believe it happens on occasion, but that's not a viable repeatable strategy, that's just hoping for the unlikely to happen.
You clearly have been on here long enough to know better then to play victim and ascribe offense where one was intended. You know I meant no offense because I specifically went out of my way saying so and justifying my position thoughtfully. BTW, when someone says they play in a tough area with seasoned players your the one assuming they mean that equals better or superior. Often times I wish I had more players around me that took the game more casually because that's generally more fun. I literally have a box of combat units I haven't used in over two years despite converting them carefully because they might as well not exist in the game beyond eating points.
barontuman wrote: the prevalence of them in the competitive meta makes it pointless to argue against. Maybe they don't work for you, or the lists you've come across, but look to the meta, it's a pretty good indication that if something is taken in 3s very commonly, it's going to be a pretty good unit.
Most of the meta copy what the successful lists do, to be fair. It's quite easy for good units to be overlooked, or units to be overepresented just because a few top players used them. Anyway, time will tell - let's see what Necron tournament lists look like in a few months time. Making good progress on my first heavy destroyer conversion made from Immortal Gauss Blasters.
Exactly, I played I guy with 3 DDA, 3 DS, 30 telsa immortals, 9 telsa TB, imotekh and an overlord. You know, the generic necron competitive net list. I had regular and heavy destroyers, 2 DDA and no doom scythes and I had second turn but I beat him because his list sucked against destroyers. Looking at what other successful players are playing is only part of the picture.
wisetiger7 wrote: Has anyone tried double batallion? I'm thinking about the following but I don't know if Necrons need the CP.
Imotekh, Lord with sword, Cloaktek, Chronotek
6x5 Teslamortals (one group with 7 to fill out points)
2 DDAs, 2 Tessarks, 3 DScythes.
My personal experience is that small squads of immortals give up their advantages in both res protocols and in MWBD. Which means that now both your HQs and your troops are simply tax as opposed to viable threats that have to be dealt with. YMMV.
Agree'd I would highly recommend taking full squads if you can. The only time I dont is if I am shaving points to fit 1 more thing in.
Paying for Reanimation and never being able to use it is really bad.
Is it really bad?
How many successful reanimation rolls do you make in a typical game of yours? If I win or loose, I make really few.
It's not that I make many, but that my opponent is generally forced into wiping out complete units with sub-optimum shots. Those last 2 immortals from a 10 man squad that were wiped out would not be a threat "now" but in 2 turns when they've re-animated twice? Well, I guess I better shoot my big guns at them instead of the destroyers . But mostly MWBD is fantastic. And if you're shooting at something that "must die", getting those extra hits with Methodical Destruction can be daunting to your opponent as well. I typically get ~20 wounds out of 20 shots when I go all out with tesla-Immortals like that. It's not common, but yeah, I've had squads reduce to 1 in turn one, fallen back to cover, then had them at full strength dishing out damage on the last turn. It's a viable threat that an opponent has to take seriously.
wisetiger7 wrote: Has anyone tried double batallion? I'm thinking about the following but I don't know if Necrons need the CP.
Imotekh, Lord with sword, Cloaktek, Chronotek
6x5 Teslamortals (one group with 7 to fill out points)
2 DDAs, 2 Tessarks, 3 DScythes.
Been playing it all year, 58 Immortals, Imotekh, Zahndrekh, Obyron, Overlord, 3 DDAs, Gauss Stalker. I'll either remove 2 Immortals and add Orikan or add 2 Immortals and some Scarabs or Teslablades to make up for pts reductions for the Stalker and HQs.
I don't think Crypteks are worth it in an Immortal list. Unless you already own two Tessarks I'd go with 3 DDAs, they're probably at least as good. The concept of your list is to me faulty, why do you need a second Battalion if you don't even want to focus on your Immortals? Do you need the extra 4-6 CP and get more efficient units and avoid being forced to take a Chronotek? Orikan is 5 more pts than a Chronotek, his 5+ invul aura is 6" and works in melee and he has a chance to get better stats, that's more than a bargain in my ears and I still don't think Orikan is amazing in an Immortal list.
I don't think our HQs are horrible any longer, except for Crypteks. Imotekh is amazing if you can roll well when it counts, Lords can't improve vehicles, but provided you have an infantry-centric list they are amazing, Overlords are only worth bringing with Teslamortals, but that combo is still strong. Crypteks are good if you are bringing an army that relies on Reanimation and ResOrbs are worth bringing a decent chunk of the time now, I'm part of the faction that thinks Reanimation is overrated, I prefer just focussing on the firepower of my Immortals and DDAs but Lords and Overlords are solid provided you build around them.
Thanks everyone for your responses. I've been playing necrons for less than a year now, and in that time I've only played maybe 5-6 real games (the rest being apocalypse). So I'm still trying to figure things out. I did min units just to get the double battalion to have fun with CP. But it sounds like it isn't worth it. I usually run immortals at max squads, but have lately entertained the idea of min squads just for the CP tax. But I think I agree that max squads are better, both for force concentration of MWBD and for RP rolls to have a better chance to go off.
I think just one Battalion for the CP is fine, especially when Stormlord is already one of our best HQ dudes and he'll regenerate one a turn and gives one to begin with. With just another basic detachment that's 10, which will likely be fine.
Had the most infuriating Reanimation the other day. 8 Reanimation rolls on 4+ for Tomb Blades. Very significant as it was turn 5 and a very close game. With 8 rolls.. only 1 came back... on a 4+. The game ended quickly after that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I think just one Battalion for the CP is fine, especially when Stormlord is already one of our best HQ dudes and he'll regenerate one a turn and gives one to begin with. With just another basic detachment that's 10, which will likely be fine.
I actually found it to be too many. Now I just take two specialized detachments since 6 CP is plenty, but I also stopped running troops for other reasons. Immortals are still solid and I used to run a battalion and had 10. I was really hoping crypteks would drop since I don't really want to take a 3rd HQ at the moment, somehow still 80 lol.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I think just one Battalion for the CP is fine, especially when Stormlord is already one of our best HQ dudes and he'll regenerate one a turn and gives one to begin with. With just another basic detachment that's 10, which will likely be fine.
I actually found it to be too many. Now I just take two specialized detachments since 6 CP is plenty, but I also stopped running troops for other reasons. Immortals are still solid and I used to run a battalion and had 10. I was really hoping crypteks would drop since I don't really want to take a 3rd HQ at the moment, somehow still 80 lol.
Is there any scenario to ever take the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator relic or are we just gonna pretend it doesn't exist till our 2.0 dex? I really like the aesthetic and it was decently powerful in 7th but now I'm afraid that it really is what it seems like on the tin...a big pile of doo-doo water.
Mixzremixzd wrote: Is there any scenario to ever take the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator relic or are we just gonna pretend it doesn't exist till our 2.0 dex? I really like the aesthetic and it was decently powerful in 7th but now I'm afraid that it really is what it seems like on the tin...a big pile of doo-doo water.
Mixzremixzd wrote: Is there any scenario to ever take the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator relic or are we just gonna pretend it doesn't exist till our 2.0 dex? I really like the aesthetic and it was decently powerful in 7th but now I'm afraid that it really is what it seems like on the tin...a big pile of doo-doo water.
It's garbo, F-tier trash and it only has a 50% chance of changing if we get another codex.
Well that was disappointing to hear, but eh I should've really expected as much. VoD is gonna be our staple for a long time but I guess we're saving CP from having to pay for any extra relics. Slightly off topic though, I was wondering if there was any word out in the rumour mills of a possible Necron 2.0 Codex or at the very least when our turn is coming in the PA campaigns?
Mixzremixzd wrote: Well that was disappointing to hear, but eh I should've really expected as much. VoD is gonna be our staple for a long time but I guess we're saving CP from having to pay for any extra relics. Slightly off topic though, I was wondering if there was any word out in the rumour mills of a possible Necron 2.0 Codex or at the very least when our turn is coming in the PA campaigns?
Lightning Field is OK as a second relic on a CCB (or on a Lord if you're facing down a lot of snipers). But yeah, VOD is so good, it'll always be our first choice.
Mixzremixzd wrote: Well that was disappointing to hear, but eh I should've really expected as much. VoD is gonna be our staple for a long time but I guess we're saving CP from having to pay for any extra relics. Slightly off topic though, I was wondering if there was any word out in the rumour mills of a possible Necron 2.0 Codex or at the very least when our turn is coming in the PA campaigns?
Yep. Apart from VOD about only thing I use is lightning field with CCB. As long as you don't run into dam1/2 spam you will be tough. Too bad it's the current hotness...
Voidscythe I have used couple times. It's been ok but very situational. If necrons were more CP rich and we had similar stratagem as marines/sisters(1cp per relic period) I might use it bit more especially now with cheaper overlords.
No word on codex 2.0 and best guess for PA is PA7. 4-6 don't sound like necron involving.
I've gotten....Decent mileage from Sempiternal Weave on my HQ to protect him from the Iron Hands Eliminator spam cheese. Makes him pretty darn hard to hurt and keep down.
IHateNids wrote: I have toyed with the idea of a Sempiternal DLord
T7 6W iirc is nothing to sniff at
For most guns which will fire at him, presumably we will want 4++. Either because they are already str8+ for which T6 versus T7 doesn’t matter or because they are already wounding on 5s.
Is there a str6 gun platform more common than str4 and str8?
IHateNids wrote: I have toyed with the idea of a Sempiternal DLord
T7 6W iirc is nothing to sniff at
For most guns which will fire at him, presumably we will want 4++. Either because they are already str8+ for which T6 versus T7 doesn’t matter or because they are already wounding on 5s.
Is there a str6 gun platform more common than str4 and str8?
Only thing I can think of is if you're expecting to come up against a wall of Shuriken Cannons but even then, It's still probably safer to go with the 4++ to mitigate the -3 when they roll 6s.
IHateNids wrote: I have toyed with the idea of a Sempiternal DLord
T7 6W iirc is nothing to sniff at
For most guns which will fire at him, presumably we will want 4++. Either because they are already str8+ for which T6 versus T7 doesn’t matter or because they are already wounding on 5s.
Is there a str6 gun platform more common than str4 and str8?
Only thing I can think of is if you're expecting to come up against a wall of Shuriken Cannons but even then, It's still probably safer to go with the 4++ to mitigate the -3 when they roll 6s.
DLords have a built-in 4++, no reason why the weave would replace that
IHateNids wrote: I have toyed with the idea of a Sempiternal DLord
T7 6W iirc is nothing to sniff at
For most guns which will fire at him, presumably we will want 4++. Either because they are already str8+ for which T6 versus T7 doesn’t matter or because they are already wounding on 5s.
Is there a str6 gun platform more common than str4 and str8?
Only thing I can think of is if you're expecting to come up against a wall of Shuriken Cannons but even then, It's still probably safer to go with the 4++ to mitigate the -3 when they roll 6s.
DLords have a built-in 4++, no reason why the weave would replace that
That's why you go with the super Phylactery. Spend your rerolls and you got a 75% chance of the dude still getting up and wrapping up dudes in melee. Spend the Strat and that's another 50% on top of that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I think just one Battalion for the CP is fine, especially when Stormlord is already one of our best HQ dudes and he'll regenerate one a turn and gives one to begin with. With just another basic detachment that's 10, which will likely be fine.
I actually found it to be too many. Now I just take two specialized detachments since 6 CP is plenty, but I also stopped running troops for other reasons. Immortals are still solid and I used to run a battalion and had 10. I was really hoping crypteks would drop since I don't really want to take a 3rd HQ at the moment, somehow still 80 lol.
It's better to have it in case I would think.
Don't get me wrong, it isn't that I wouldn't be able to use the extra rerolls for things. It's more that I really hate the tax units lately. I play a lot of admech and marines, so immortals just kind of disappear real quick lol. That said, with the further cuts I will probably be reinventing my regular list anyway. I am actually interested in giving C'tan another go, at the very least Nightbringer seems solid for his price now.
IHateNids wrote: I have toyed with the idea of a Sempiternal DLord
T7 6W iirc is nothing to sniff at
For most guns which will fire at him, presumably we will want 4++. Either because they are already str8+ for which T6 versus T7 doesn’t matter or because they are already wounding on 5s.
Is there a str6 gun platform more common than str4 and str8?
Only thing I can think of is if you're expecting to come up against a wall of Shuriken Cannons but even then, It's still probably safer to go with the 4++ to mitigate the -3 when they roll 6s.
DLords have a built-in 4++, no reason why the weave would replace that
That's why you go with the super Phylactery. Spend your rerolls and you got a 75% chance of the dude still getting up and wrapping up dudes in melee. Spend the Strat and that's another 50% on top of that.
Yea that dude comes back to life more then the bad guy in an 80's thriller movie. That said, he kills about as well as one too with his 4 attacks hitting on 3's Anyone else remember the time when warscythes ignored invuln saves and were fething horrifying?
elook wrote: I do like the idea of running a Warlord Destroyer Lord with Nanoscarab Casket. Perhaps using Eternal madness or the -1 damage trait.
You could have him running with a bunch of Novokh Wraiths for fast and efficient combat.
He's cool, but you gotta use him like a scalpel. He doesn't have enough attacks by himself to clear chaff, so he can get tied up easily if his wraith escort dies. I'd consider him as a counter charger, but I think the Nightbringer plays that role better tbh.
IanVanCheese wrote: He's cool, but you gotta use him like a scalpel. He doesn't have enough attacks by himself to clear chaff, so he can get tied up easily if his wraith escort dies. I'd consider him as a counter charger, but I think the Nightbringer plays that role better tbh.
If the Nightbringer was an HQ, he would probably be in all my lists, i was already playing him before CA19 and will probably play him more now. Being an elite, not having warlord traits or relics kind of sucks. I really find him strong, but when you compare him to a Daemon Prince you feel the difference.
I kind of hope that Psychic Awakening give us some old stuffs like Cryptek Disciplines, or traits for the C'tan (or something to push them to higher levels - like bigs shards -). But as the new content is quite hit or miss, especially when you're note in power armor, i don't have a lot of hope.
With the drops to Dlords and Heavy Ds, a spearhead of 3x3 and a lord with scythe comes in at 437.
How does this compare to 3 DDAs? Does being easier to hide with some beefy melee support offer some utility? Is running this spearhead AND 3x DDAs seem like overkill?
Immotek can MWBD two of these but they would need to be near by, but they would be 9 str 9 ap-4 d6 attacks at hit on reroll 2s, typically wounding on 2s rerolling or 3s rerolling 1s. Seems consistently deadly.
elook wrote: I do like the idea of running a Warlord Destroyer Lord with Nanoscarab Casket. Perhaps using Eternal madness or the -1 damage trait.
You could have him running with a bunch of Novokh Wraiths for fast and efficient combat.
He's cool, but you gotta use him like a scalpel. He doesn't have enough attacks by himself to clear chaff, so he can get tied up easily if his wraith escort dies. I'd consider him as a counter charger, but I think the Nightbringer plays that role better tbh.
Expecting him to kill anything is incorrect. In this dominantly shooting game, he brings the utility of locking up a unit per turn with no worry about the investment not paying off, simply because he keeps getting up. Nanoscarabs + the one Character strat + a reroll handy is like a 89% chance he gets up after dying. For all intents and purposes, expect to die only once in two 5 turn games.
elook wrote: I do like the idea of running a Warlord Destroyer Lord with Nanoscarab Casket. Perhaps using Eternal madness or the -1 damage trait.
You could have him running with a bunch of Novokh Wraiths for fast and efficient combat.
He's cool, but you gotta use him like a scalpel. He doesn't have enough attacks by himself to clear chaff, so he can get tied up easily if his wraith escort dies. I'd consider him as a counter charger, but I think the Nightbringer plays that role better tbh.
Expecting him to kill anything is incorrect. In this dominantly shooting game, he brings the utility of locking up a unit per turn with no worry about the investment not paying off, simply because he keeps getting up. Nanoscarabs + the one Character strat + a reroll handy is like a 89% chance he gets up after dying. For all intents and purposes, expect to die only once in two 5 turn games.
True, but if he gets tied up in screens he can't fall back and charge, so he can't tie up anything else. You need to make sure you can get him into combat with something worth tying up
elook wrote: I do like the idea of running a Warlord Destroyer Lord with Nanoscarab Casket. Perhaps using Eternal madness or the -1 damage trait.
You could have him running with a bunch of Novokh Wraiths for fast and efficient combat.
He's cool, but you gotta use him like a scalpel. He doesn't have enough attacks by himself to clear chaff, so he can get tied up easily if his wraith escort dies. I'd consider him as a counter charger, but I think the Nightbringer plays that role better tbh.
Expecting him to kill anything is incorrect. In this dominantly shooting game, he brings the utility of locking up a unit per turn with no worry about the investment not paying off, simply because he keeps getting up. Nanoscarabs + the one Character strat + a reroll handy is like a 89% chance he gets up after dying. For all intents and purposes, expect to die only once in two 5 turn games.
True, but if he gets tied up in screens he can't fall back and charge, so he can't tie up anything else. You need to make sure you can get him into combat with something worth tying up
The movement is high enough that I'm not terribly worried. Been a while since I Necron'd though.
DDA has the longer range and are more survivable but HDs clearly win on the dmg site?
They're both good, but I think HDs may be better for the points. 3 S9 -4 D6 shots for 111 points vs. D6 S10 -5 D6 shots for 160 points. That's if the DDA does not move. The DDA is tougher for sure and able to use its gauss arrays, but I find HDs more tactically flexible for anti-tank; they get the objectives bonus for being infantry, are easier to hide, move and get cover, can receive MWBD, have animation protocols, plus they come with rerolls 1's. I also prefer a consistent number of shots over the likelihood of having to use a CP to reroll the DDA's number of shots.
I feel there is no doubt that we'll see some top performing Necron players using 3x3 Heavy Destroyers replacing Doomsday Arks. The issue that comes to mind is that Doomsday Arks providing great screening against Horde armies due to their size. We'll need to use something else in our codex for that role.
Perhaps using a mix of both? Since they both fill our Heavy Support detachment.
I am thinking of running 9-11 Heavy Destroyers with 5-8 Destroyers, 3 DDAs and a Battalion, but I'm afraid I won't have enough anti-infantry firepower. It seems like the right thing to do to counter SM. I've been a bit busy since the pts leaked so no playtesting thus far, I'm going to start testing today and see if my old list remains my strongest pick, it might just because of my experience, otherwise, I'll shift over to the supreme anti-tank list. I have 30 Destroyers laying around, I'd just need to convert some from Destroyers to Heavy Destroyers and get them painted.
tneva82 wrote: Or replace flying wing that can't use stratagem even all that often. Even optimistically only bit over half the time.
If i had spare 200e would do it myself
I think that makes the most sense.
Same analysis as above, but instead of the DDAd6 shots, the DS is only d3. You then keep the body blocking (though not base blocking versus knights).
Flipside is of course losing all those tesla shots and in right situation the stratagem can be helpful. But I have had little success with them. If I go second often enough at least ONE blows up as blocking LOS to 3 flyers is hard even on our terrain and they are super flimsy. And sometimes even with 3 dda's I find myself on short AT. Especially mobile ones so h.destroyer ability to move and shoot is pretty sweet.
Generally need another HQ for HS but points saved gives you another overlord or two who also can MWBD your h.destroyers. Hitting on 2+ with reroll 1 and S9? Oh yeah. No need for stratagem really.
vict0988 wrote: I am thinking of running 9-11 Heavy Destroyers with 5-8 Destroyers, 3 DDAs and a Battalion, but I'm afraid I won't have enough anti-infantry firepower. It seems like the right thing to do to counter SM. I've been a bit busy since the pts leaked so no playtesting thus far, I'm going to start testing today and see if my old list remains my strongest pick, it might just because of my experience, otherwise, I'll shift over to the supreme anti-tank list. I have 30 Destroyers laying around, I'd just need to convert some from Destroyers to Heavy Destroyers and get them painted.
What anti infantry would you have otherwise got instead of those HDs?
2 overlords, cryptek, 3x10 tesla immortal, 6xdestroyr,3xdda,9xheavy destroyer. Leaves 198 pts left. Enough for say 3 scarab swarm and 10 immortals. Maybe too many immortals seing you have 2, 3 with stratagem, MWBD only...
Could be my list if I had 200e to spare Alas sisters taking figure budget for a while.
That's why I prefer lychguard since they can be buffed. You can do 8" charge with reroll so if you are willing to use 
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