I find the durability, size and the gauss flayers too hard for me to pass up. Destroyers tend to die very fast. Don't expect heavy ones survive much better so they are bit more of one shot weapons for me. And those gauss flayers are helping me constantly.
Yeah for me it's not a question of replacing Doomsday Arks, it's about supplementing them.
DDAs are multipurpose, good for clearing hordes, bullying marines, rushing up the board etc. I think Heavy Destroyers are just boosting our ability to take down mech walls and flyer spam.
3 x DDA and 3 x 10 Tesla Immortals is enough to clear any horde out there. But 3 DDAs isn't enough anti-tank to reliably take on Iron hands or Eldar Flyer spam.
Yeah DDAs are so much more than just anti tank, I can't see them going anywhere. The closest competition is probably a Ghost Ark + 3 Heavy Destroyers. That gives me a silly idea:
Spoiler:
2x Mephrit Spearheads:
Catacomb Command Barge
3x Heavy Destroyers
3x Heavy Destroyers
3x Heavy Destroyers
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Cryptek + Cloak
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
1993pts
Yes, that is 8 Ghost Arks and 3 Doomsday Arks. The only think that will save players from this monstrosity is that Crons will have a new codex before anyone can finish sticking that many Arks together.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah DDAs are so much more than just anti tank, I can't see them going anywhere. The closest competition is probably a Ghost Ark + 3 Heavy Destroyers. That gives me a silly idea:
Spoiler:
2x Mephrit Spearheads:
CCB Cryptek + Cloak
3x Heavy Destroyers
3x Heavy Destroyers
3x Heavy Destroyers
Yes, that is 8 Ghost Arks and 3 Doomsday Arks. The only think that will save players from this monstrosity is that Crons will have a new codex before anyone can finish sticking that many Arks together.
Very similar to the old Quantum Shielding Online lists that used to go around. In this case, I think you're better off going full quantum shielding and swapping the 9 Heavy Destroyers for three Triarch Stalkers. You lose 3 Heavy Guass shots, but gain some resiliience and don't give their anti-tank firepower an obvious target (because they'll just lascannon your heavyd estroyers). I do think QS spam will become more viable this year though as people are bringing more heavy firepower to deal with the meta (and sisters spam Melta as their AT, which we love).
There wasn't much thought put into that list, but it has made me think that spamming Ghost Arks could be a very viable strategy. 120pts may have been too cheap.
Red Corsair, I thought the same thing, until I realized that I had skimmed over the CCB. That's 2 HQ, 6 Heavy. Absurd that you can take a dedicated transport Ark "for" a DDA!
Very similar to the old Quantum Shielding Online lists that used to go around. In this case, I think you're better off going full quantum shielding and swapping the 9 Heavy Destroyers for three Triarch Stalkers. You lose 3 Heavy Guass shots, but gain some resiliience and don't give their anti-tank firepower an obvious target (because they'll just lascannon your heavyd estroyers). I do think QS spam will become more viable this year though as people are bringing more heavy firepower to deal with the meta (and sisters spam Melta as their AT, which we love).
Not that we should be taking this list seriously, but 3 Stalkers have far less shooting than 9 Heavy Destroyers. They hit on 4's if they move and don't reroll ones, or benefit from MWBD, or Extermination Protocols.
Ideally the Cryptek would be a Destroyer Lord for reroll 1's to wound too:
Spoiler:
2x Mephrit Spearheads:
Catacomb Command Barge, Tesla Cannon, Sniper WL trait and Relic SoL
Doomsday Ark Doomsday Ark Doomsday Ark
Ghost Ark Ghost Ark Ghost Ark Ghost Ark
Destroyer Lord with Hyperphase Sword
3x Heavy Destroyers 3x Heavy Destroyers 3x Heavy Destroyers
Well while d6 is better than dam2 keep in mind sister melta is marine style superior rule where melta boost is pure bonus. Roll 3(or 4) and 6? Pick lower. Negates a bit of qs bonus
Not that we should be taking this list seriously, but 3 Stalkers have far less shooting than 9 Heavy Destroyers. They hit on 4's if they move and don't reroll ones, or benefit from MWBD, or Extermination Protocols.
Thats partially wrong. A stalker can benefit from another stalkers reroll 1s.
True, you lose quite a bit of firepower compared to the heavy destroyers, but if they're going to die to anti-tank weaponry turn 1 then you're not getting to use all that big gun. The point of spamming quantum shielding is to invalidate your opponents anti-tank weaponry. Giving them some other, juicy targets negates that advantage somewhat.
p5freak wrote: Thats partially wrong. A stalker can benefit from another stalkers reroll 1s.
I am re-rolling my eyes at your nitpicking.
p5freak wrote: Thats hilarious
What's even more hilarious is that this list would be 351 points more expensive pre CA2019. Calm down GW!
IanVanCheese wrote:True, you lose quite a bit of firepower compared to the heavy destroyers, but if they're going to die to anti-tank weaponry turn 1 then you're not getting to use all that big gun. The point of spamming quantum shielding is to invalidate your opponents anti-tank weaponry. Giving them some other, juicy targets negates that advantage somewhat.
Heavy Destroyers are good at hiding, especially with 11 Arks to help them (even with the holes). I know what you mean with QS spam lists in general, but this one is lacking anti-tank without the Destroyers, and there is no decent replacement.
Well need pretty odd model and some terrain to help. Unless there's terrain covering bottom of ark any model literally not hanging in air is seen. Even if destroyer itself is somehoh covered 100%(not even 1% visible) the base touching ground is. Fire away freely.
It's ridiculously easy to see. 30 orks in 6x5 formation? Grots behing can be shot
Show your heavy destroyers floating in air nothing touching ground
I think with terrain, and units at different elevations, they will help to hide things. That's not something that seems worth debating anyway. Are we saying Heavy Destroyers are bad now? I understand that QS spam usually denies targets for certain weapons, and the HD's dilute that, but the point of the list is that 11 Arks are too hard to kill no matter what else is there to shoot at.
That being said, the list would undoubtedly still be horrible to face if the Heavy D's were swapped for Triarch Stalkers.
Nothing GT winning but I want to play around with MWs and almost all of those units got cheaper in CA2019
This list should be 1996/7 points.
You cannot choose a ctan power for a second time, until all six have been chosen once each. If you want a power twice you have to substitute it later during the game with the strat for it.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I think with terrain, and units at different elevations, they will help to hide things. That's not something that seems worth debating anyway. Are we saying Heavy Destroyers are bad now? I understand that QS spam usually denies targets for certain weapons, and the HD's dilute that, but the point of the list is that 11 Arks are too hard to kill no matter what else is there to shoot at.
That being said, the list would undoubtedly still be horrible to face if the Heavy D's were swapped for Triarch Stalkers.
H.destroyers aren't bad but don't expect them to be hidden by another unit. Even rhino only blocks(to short enough) side to slde. Front to back base of attacker will draw line to base of target every time. Even small dot is enough. Dda isn't even solid.
If you try to block los with unit you will spend tons of time and fail anyway
Very similar to the old Quantum Shielding Online lists that used to go around. In this case, I think you're better off going full quantum shielding and swapping the 9 Heavy Destroyers for three Triarch Stalkers. You lose 3 Heavy Guass shots, but gain some resiliience and don't give their anti-tank firepower an obvious target (because they'll just lascannon your heavyd estroyers). I do think QS spam will become more viable this year though as people are bringing more heavy firepower to deal with the meta (and sisters spam Melta as their AT, which we love).
Not that we should be taking this list seriously, but 3 Stalkers have far less shooting than 9 Heavy Destroyers. They hit on 4's if they move and don't reroll ones, or benefit from MWBD, or Extermination Protocols.
Ideally the Cryptek would be a Destroyer Lord for reroll 1's to wound too:
Spoiler:
2x Mephrit Spearheads:
Catacomb Command Barge, Tesla Cannon, Sniper WL trait and Relic SoL
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Destroyer Lord with Hyperphase Sword
3x Heavy Destroyers
3x Heavy Destroyers
3x Heavy Destroyers
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
1999pts
I'd probably do the Dooms as Nihilakh. Otherwise I'm a fan of what's going on here.
Yeah, I expect to see a lot of Ghost Arks in tournament lists this year. For about the same price as 10 warriors you get the same firepower but also with increased movement, Fly, QS, Living Metal, increased toughness and wounds. It's a no-brainer to include them instead of troops.
Have to admit, I was really disappointed that Necron Warriors did not receive a points drop in CA19 while a lot of other Necron units did. IMO, every 40k army should contain a decent-sized portion of troops, but GW seems to have gone out of their way to ensure that Necron armies not take many troops.
If Warriors were cheaper it would be good to take 30 of them and stuff them in Arks. Similar to Venom Spam where you end up having to consider whether to blow up a transport on an objective if it is going to spill out a squad of ObSec troops.
Nothing GT winning but I want to play around with MWs and almost all of those units got cheaper in CA2019
This list should be 1996/7 points.
You cannot choose a ctan power for a second time, until all six have been chosen once each. If you want a power twice you have to substitute it later during the game with the strat for it.
Sucks to be me then...Makes this list much more worse than expected
Nothing GT winning but I want to play around with MWs and almost all of those units got cheaper in CA2019
This list should be 1996/7 points.
You cannot choose a ctan power for a second time, until all six have been chosen once each. If you want a power twice you have to substitute it later during the game with the strat for it.
But if you roll, and get the same power on different ones you're ok.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd probably do the Dooms as Nihilakh. Otherwise I'm a fan of what's going on here.
Nihilakh or Sautekh would be nice, but Mephrit makes all those Flayers AP-2 in rapid fire range, and there will be a lot of Flayers in rapid fire range. The plan for the list is for all the Ghost Ark pilots to shout "ramming speed!", fly forward as fast as possible, rapid fire, charge, then fall back and rapid fire again, rinse repeat. Taking down that many QS wounds would be difficult enough even without all your guns tied up in hth.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Ghost Arks need to be open topped again, period.
So much. Mephrit Warriors in open topped Ghost Arks would have been a viable thing for the whole of 8th edition, and massively change how crons play.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Giving more thought to the suggestion of having Triarch Stalkers instead of Heavy Destroyers, they might work as additional QS battering rams rather than anti tank platforms. Give them Heat Rays as they'll be getting close anyway:
Spoiler:
Mephrit Spearhead:
Catacomb Command Barge, Tesla Cannon, Sniper WL trait and Relic SoL
Doomsday Ark Doomsday Ark Doomsday Ark
Ghost Ark Ghost Ark Ghost Ark Ghost Ark
Mephrit Vanguard:
Cloak-Tek
Triarch Stalker, Heat Ray Triarch Stalker, Heat Ray Triarch Stalker, Heat Ray
Ghost Ark Ghost Ark Ghost Ark Ghost Ark
1998pts
So now there would be 12 QS vehicles trying to tie the enemy up in HtH. But I think the reduced anti-tank firepower would make Mech Eldar lists full of Flyers and Grav tanks a problem, and maybe Knights too, and IH flyers. Basically anything that's a vehicle and can fall back and still shoot. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised to see Quantum Battering Ram lists do well, especially if Psychic Awakening gives them any buffs.
I'd build it as a Ghost Ark without the broken Warriors in it, and also assemble the Doomsday Cannon. The cannon easily slots into the empty Ghost Ark so you can switch between them.
You might want to wait until after the Necrons get some Psychic Awakening love to see how that effects things before buying too much more stuff
Are sword and board lychguard worth taking in this marine meta. Novokh seems to be the best dynasty for them. Basically like Primaris, T5, with a 4++ invul so all the AP stacking from bolters wont really matter.
Use them to lock down center field hide out of LoS. Thoughts?
ballzonya wrote: Hello Necron peeps!! I just joined the ranks bought the outrider detachment box.
my question is what are some must buy units?
how should I build that box? I was thinking of not making the ghost ark as a ghost ark?
how was chapter approved for us?
thanks dakka users
I would recommend not doing ghost ark. While it's not anymore worst(though funny enough you don't want any warriors for it to repair. Just use it as gunboat) the dda serves very important function. Anti tank. Necron's have very little good AT in the codex. Doomsday ark, destroyers and (now) heavy destroyers(both which are bit of a glass cannon I find. They are so deadly enemy doesn't ignore them so they die once they have exposed themselves to shoot) and...ummm that's about it. Forge world has pylon(which has it's own issues) and tesseract arcs(sort of more mobile and tougher doomsday ark with bit less of oomph on the main gun vs T8 targets). So basically you pretty much NEED dda's to your army. There's reason they are so popular and it's not that dda is brokenly good. It's because it's one of the few actually good AT units we have.
Later can consider magnetizing though I would take 2 dda's and only consider for 3rd magnetizing. Can't see list where you have ghost arks but no doomsday arks. Other way I can see.
Dynas wrote: Are sword and board lychguard worth taking in this marine meta. Novokh seems to be the best dynasty for them. Basically like Primaris, T5, with a 4++ invul so all the AP stacking from bolters wont really matter.
Use them to lock down center field hide out of LoS. Thoughts?
tneva82 wrote: Cheaper yes, better is depatable. Quite soft so they won't survive any serious firepower, most/all buffs work on them, no code bonuses...
Sword & Board lychguard are basically analogous to Sword & Shield Custodian Guard (comparable price)
That is, they have their place, but suffer greatly from lacking in other areas. Namely, they have the issue with all Necron units that they cant mix weapons... having 6/4 Scythes/Shields would make it immeasurably better
If you are using S&B Lytchguard you have to have a way to deliver them. The two transportation vehicles blow, C'Tan can not do it for them without spending too much in named HQ's and not in Nov Dynasty. So that leaves your one use Cloak of Darkness and even with My will be Done on them your about 50 of the time going to be stuck wasting your turn.
In a fluffy game go for it and enjoy but if it is a game were both of you are trying to win they don't have a place in a list.
I am sad about that as they are my favorite model.
Hey guys, haven't posted in a while but with CA19 releasing and Battlescribe updating I have been mad busy making lists. I even delete my Battlescribe and re-installed it as I had list bloat.
Anyway, I'm currently working on 2 lists. Both are a Battalion and both feature a skyshield landing pad. Only difference is that one lost contains 5 Destroyers and the other contains an extra Triarch stalker and DDA. I'm not sure which is better and just wondering what you guys think before I go to any tournaments starting next year.
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 115pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 115pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon
+ Fast Attack +
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 248pts] . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 248pts] . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
Idea for the list is that; Overlord MWBD and VoDs the Tesla Immortals, Cryptek 2 TBs act as a "squad", 2 Ghost Arks move up aggressively onto objectives and bait my opponent to shoot into them instead of something else 10-20 S4 -1/2 x2 isn't anything to laugh at in your face turn 2-3. DDAs stay on the Skyshield for 5++ making them basically Tarks interms of survivability. Skyshield is also something to soak some wounds. And Stalker provides re-rolling 1s to hit.
If I bring an extra stalker and DDA its obviously more anti tank but also more rr1s to hit and more Gauss arrays if needed later in the game. While the Destroyers are great for MeQs and general Marine meta and have good synergy with their Stratagem.
tneva82 wrote: Cheaper yes, better is depatable. Quite soft so they won't survive any serious firepower, most/all buffs work on them, no code bonuses...
Still only 11 points per T5 3+ wound.
Yes but that's not particularly tough. As I said. Quite soft. They die very fast with all the multi damage -2 good rate of fire shots around. Until meta changes dramatically they will be vaporized before getting to close combat so what they will do while alive? Not closecombat so need to do something else. No good guns so not that either. So you are basically taking them to draw firepower away from actual threat. That's the only role they have.
Also the W2 in stat line isn't all that impressive. Hopefully you don't claim it's as good as two models with 1W each because they are not. Lot softer than that.
tneva82 wrote: Cheaper yes, better is depatable. Quite soft so they won't survive any serious firepower, most/all buffs work on them, no code bonuses...
Still only 11 points per T5 3+ wound.
Yes but that's not particularly tough. As I said. Quite soft. They die very fast with all the multi damage -2 good rate of fire shots around. Until meta changes dramatically they will be vaporized before getting to close combat so what they will do while alive? Not closecombat so need to do something else. No good guns so not that either. So you are basically taking them to draw firepower away from actual threat. That's the only role they have.
Also the W2 in stat line isn't all that impressive. Hopefully you don't claim it's as good as two models with 1W each because they are not. Lot softer than that.
4++ is not going to save you from high VoF incoming fire, though. It’s so low a save (50%) it’s meant for low VoF, high dog/AP Fire.
Dynas wrote: Are sword and board lychguard worth taking in this marine meta. Novokh seems to be the best dynasty for them. Basically like Primaris, T5, with a 4++ invul so all the AP stacking from bolters wont really matter.
Use them to lock down center field hide out of LoS. Thoughts?
Praetorians are better and cheaper.
Wraith are the best overall choice. They move 12", can charge after advancing for 1CP, 3++, get dynasty codes, have 3 attacks per model, S6 AP-2 D2 damage, have a similar rule like FLY, but not the FLY keyword, they dont trigger any abilities which give +1 to hit with FLY. If i wanted to run a necron melee army i would go with 3x6 wraith with particle casters and novokh dynasty. If you play them as nihilakh and park them on an objective marker you can give them 2++.
sieGermans wrote: 4++ is not going to save you from high VoF incoming fire, though. It’s so low a save (50%) it’s meant for low VoF, high dog/AP Fire.
It will cut casualties by 25% against oh so numerous -2 D2 good ROF type of weapons that are so common. You get 4++, praetorian get 5+. Splat splat splat. Not to mention you can go to 3++ halving the casualties.
And while you still might die before getting into combat(100% identical to praetorian) at least you serve some function in the meanwhile protecting your characters. Praetorians don't do even that.
tneva82 wrote: Cheaper yes, better is depatable. Quite soft so they won't survive any serious firepower, most/all buffs work on them, no code bonuses...
Still only 11 points per T5 3+ wound.
Yes but that's not particularly tough. As I said. Quite soft. They die very fast with all the multi damage -2 good rate of fire shots around. Until meta changes dramatically they will be vaporized before getting to close combat so what they will do while alive? Not closecombat so need to do something else. No good guns so not that either. So you are basically taking them to draw firepower away from actual threat. That's the only role they have.
Also the W2 in stat line isn't all that impressive. Hopefully you don't claim it's as good as two models with 1W each because they are not. Lot softer than that.
4++ is not going to save you from high VoF incoming fire, though. It’s so low a save (50%) it’s meant for low VoF, high dog/AP Fire.
Cant you buff it to 3++ with the stratagem. What about using Veil of Darkness on them. Or dare I say a monolith. Move the monolith up and then you can TP them in, would have to be a 2nd turn thing though. Just thinking out loud, see what other options might be viable with CA out. Always good to go back and look at stuff again.
tneva82 wrote: Cheaper yes, better is depatable. Quite soft so they won't survive any serious firepower, most/all buffs work on them, no code bonuses...
Still only 11 points per T5 3+ wound.
Yes but that's not particularly tough. As I said. Quite soft. They die very fast with all the multi damage -2 good rate of fire shots around. Until meta changes dramatically they will be vaporized before getting to close combat so what they will do while alive? Not closecombat so need to do something else. No good guns so not that either. So you are basically taking them to draw firepower away from actual threat. That's the only role they have.
Also the W2 in stat line isn't all that impressive. Hopefully you don't claim it's as good as two models with 1W each because they are not. Lot softer than that.
4++ is not going to save you from high VoF incoming fire, though. It’s so low a save (50%) it’s meant for low VoF, high dog/AP Fire.
Cant you buff it to 3++ with the stratagem. What about using Veil of Darkness on them. Or dare I say a monolith. Move the monolith up and then you can TP them in, would have to be a 2nd turn thing though. Just thinking out loud, see what other options might be viable with CA out. Always good to go back and look at stuff again.
You can do all of those things, yes. But point for point, 5 Praetorians versus 5 Lychguard, you’re paying less for Praetorians for effectively the same save and lethality (actually getting more due to shooting).
If you lean into the Lychguard more with other enabling synergies (like CP expenditure, of which we don’t have a ton, or Monoliths (!!expensive)) then that’s a different question.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except the Praetorians don't need all that support because of the already higher mobility. That's why I place them right behind Wraiths and Scarabs.
sieGermans wrote: You can do all of those things, yes. But point for point, 5 Praetorians versus 5 Lychguard, you’re paying less for Praetorians for effectively the same save and lethality (actually getting more due to shooting).
.
I would say getting 25% less casualties from shooting(4++ vs 5+ against most stuff you will face) is hardly effectively same save.
Lethality is pretty much same. None. Neither will be reaching anywhere unless you veil them maybe and have 3++ around. Dead praetorian ain't shooting anything.
Guardsmen aren’t durable because their stat line is good, it’s because they’re 4 PPM.
Exactly. Outside the D2 stuff (sure it happens, granted), Praetorians have very efficient wounds per model for the army. They aren't gonna dominate anything but I'd for sure take them before Lychguard and Flayed Ones, both of which require too much support to do any so called "work".
After a few years on 8th ed and 9 coming up, does the Necron Canoptek Tomb Stalker/sentinel are worth using or is just good to have a big monster on the table just for fun?
hellpato wrote: After a few years on 8th ed and 9 coming up, does the Necron Canoptek Tomb Stalker/sentinel are worth using or is just good to have a big monster on the table just for fun?
I’ve been playing the Stalker a ton in a casual league for the last 3 months.
It’s awful, both for the points and in general. Its T7 is no better than T5 versus anything aside from Autocannons, it is non-lethal against anything other than MEQ, and it’s save is quickly negated by anything that shoots at it with true lethal intent.
Meanwhile the Sentinel must deep strike in order to be effective (opening it up to auspex and reaper OOT fire), and it’s gun will not kill anything in 1 turn of shooting so prepare for it to be rapid fire shot at in return. It has the same vulnerabilities as the Stalker. All in all, though half the points of a DDA, it’s only about 1/4 as effective.
It’s a gorgeous model and super fluffy though—very fun to pose and paint! In casual games they are a great way to tone down your list while still playing something that might accomplish something.
T1nk4bell wrote: Ehm no?
T7 is better against every single s3, s5, s6 and s7 than t5?
How you have the idea that it just can be auto kannon?
Sure, there are tons of (pushes glasses up nose) differences between all the different Toughness values.
But in terms of the meta, the most common Strength shots coming out of SM, CSM, Eldar/etc. Are Str 4, Str 6, Str 8, and Str 9.
Of these, S4 is wounding on 5s regardless of T5 or T7.
S8 and S9 are sounding on 3s regardless.
Are there other guns? Of course. There’s T’au Firewarrior S5, there’s AM at S3, etc.
And even so! The overall point that the Stalker/Sentinel is not particularly survivable, and isn’t better than other cheaper options isn’t incorrect either!
For the same number of points you get 5 Praetorians who have more shots (5 v. 2d3 at 12”), more attacks (10), and more wounds (10), move farther and have greater limited synergy with non-Faction specific HQs.
I still repeat, though, that they are lovely models and super fun to bring to the table.
Totaly agree that the sentinel isn't good!
But there are tons of s5 weapons out there in the meta, onslaught, or what about tons of heavy bolters from Imp fists and so on.
T7 is a big difference in the meta to t5.
That changes nothing that the sentinel is crappy :8
T1nk4bell wrote: Ehm no?
T7 is better against every single s3, s5, s6 and s7 than t5?
How you have the idea that it just can be auto kannon?
Sure, there are tons of (pushes glasses up nose) differences between all the different Toughness values.
But in terms of the meta, the most common Strength shots coming out of SM, CSM, Eldar/etc. Are Str 4, Str 6, Str 8, and Str 9.
Of these, S4 is wounding on 5s regardless of T5 or T7.
S8 and S9 are sounding on 3s regardless.
Are there other guns? Of course. There’s T’au Firewarrior S5, there’s AM at S3, etc.
And even so! The overall point that the Stalker/Sentinel is not particularly survivable, and isn’t better than other cheaper options isn’t incorrect either!
For the same number of points you get 5 Praetorians who have more shots (5 v. 2d3 at 12”), more attacks (10), and more wounds (10), move farther and have greater limited synergy with non-Faction specific HQs.
I still repeat, though, that they are lovely models and super fun to bring to the table.
Even if you said they are not good in comparison of other units, if the fun factor (paint and playing) is there, i will buy some and do some shenanigan (and my love for the underdogs and trying winning with something people said : dont use it).
So I just decided to skim this to see if there are any good Necron tactics that might make me want to play them again, and now i'm curious on a few things (Please bare with me, I haven't gotten to play in over a year, and it's been longer since I touched Necrons).
DDA are good? I had it in my head once the codex dropped that they were slightly overcosted for a unit that couldn't move. I was taking instead for my Anti Tank 3 squads of Destroyers with a single Heavy in each. I also was just using VOF from other units to take more worrying ones down. Should I actually go out and buy some DDA then?
And are TB any good still? I remember running 6 man squads with Gauss, Shadowlooms, and Shieldvanes.
I'm also seeing a lot of QS being stated as really good, but I know in my meta everyone would use D2 or D3 weapons, so I rarely actually got my QS save. I take it my meta is just a one off then?
I don't see anyone saying anything about the Voltaic Staff, so I guess it's a crappy Relic? I was taking it on my Destroyer Lord and it worked out okay.
Now I don't even know what to take anymore. Anyone know a good spot I can relearn what in my book is actually good and what isn't?
DDA are good? I had it in my head once the codex dropped that they were slightly overcosted for a unit that couldn't move. I was taking instead for my Anti Tank 3 squads of Destroyers with a single Heavy in each. I also was just using VOF from other units to take more worrying ones down. Should I actually go out and buy some DDA then?
They are staple of necron at. There's reason about all competive lists run 3.
For destroyers max squad sizes to maximize stratagem. For h.destroyers own squads better to utilize greater range.
demonwalker wrote: So I just decided to skim this to see if there are any good Necron tactics that might make me want to play them again, and now i'm curious on a few things (Please bare with me, I haven't gotten to play in over a year, and it's been longer since I touched Necrons).
DDA are good? I had it in my head once the codex dropped that they were slightly overcosted for a unit that couldn't move. I was taking instead for my Anti Tank 3 squads of Destroyers with a single Heavy in each. I also was just using VOF from other units to take more worrying ones down. Should I actually go out and buy some DDA then?
And are TB any good still? I remember running 6 man squads with Gauss, Shadowlooms, and Shieldvanes.
I'm also seeing a lot of QS being stated as really good, but I know in my meta everyone would use D2 or D3 weapons, so I rarely actually got my QS save. I take it my meta is just a one off then?
I don't see anyone saying anything about the Voltaic Staff, so I guess it's a crappy Relic? I was taking it on my Destroyer Lord and it worked out okay.
Now I don't even know what to take anymore. Anyone know a good spot I can relearn what in my book is actually good and what isn't?
DDA are amazing for 160 points. I think they costed significantly more when the codex dropped. Their big gun is ok, and frankly our only real AT until CA2019, but between the flayers, fly keyword, respectable durability and the size of the model they are useful in any number of situations and a big reason horde armies cant just roll over us. Got a swarm of orks? let them chew on a DDA for a turn or three while they eat flayer and tesla shots.
TB are still amazing. I think Gauss TB got a bit of a buff because they pair well with the deceiver and he got a major buff. Though that might just be me. I always preferred Gauss on my TB and tesla on my immortals.
I think mass QS is probably pretty bad right now. Marines are packing a lot of 2-3 damage 1-2 AP guns that tear through QS pretty good. And since they are all the hotness right now and they are weak to the same kind of shots every other army will probably pack as much of that kind of damage profile as they can.
Can't talk much about the staff. Honestly never took that one. We only have 1 good relic and 2 situationally good ones. looking at it again it gets a solid meh from me.
It's kind of an exciting time for us Overlords. CA19 changed a lot of stuff. There were a lot of things that were kinda maybe on the brink of being good that got a points drop that may have pushed it over the finish line. Nobody is quite sure what to make of it right yet I don't think. Things I would watch would be heavy destroyers, C'tan-especially the deceiver, stalkers, wraiths and maybe ghost arks. With the drop in some of our support stuff and HQs immortal and infantry heavy lists may be more viable. warriors are still prety bad I think though. I don't think flayed ones, lichguard or praetorians got a big enough cut to overcome their issues. But that's just a guess really. All of this is. just my own quick take and will probably be proven wrong shortly. so, you know, all the grains of salt
tneva82 wrote: Cheaper yes, better is depatable. Quite soft so they won't survive any serious firepower, most/all buffs work on them, no code bonuses...
Still only 11 points per T5 3+ wound.
Yes but that's not particularly tough. As I said. Quite soft. They die very fast with all the multi damage -2 good rate of fire shots around. Until meta changes dramatically they will be vaporized before getting to close combat so what they will do while alive? Not closecombat so need to do something else. No good guns so not that either. So you are basically taking them to draw firepower away from actual threat. That's the only role they have.
Also the W2 in stat line isn't all that impressive. Hopefully you don't claim it's as good as two models with 1W each because they are not. Lot softer than that.
4++ is not going to save you from high VoF incoming fire, though. It’s so low a save (50%) it’s meant for low VoF, high dog/AP Fire.
Cant you buff it to 3++ with the stratagem. What about using Veil of Darkness on them. Or dare I say a monolith. Move the monolith up and then you can TP them in, would have to be a 2nd turn thing though. Just thinking out loud, see what other options might be viable with CA out. Always good to go back and look at stuff again.
You can do all of those things, yes. But point for point, 5 Praetorians versus 5 Lychguard, you’re paying less for Praetorians for effectively the same save and lethality (actually getting more due to shooting).
If you lean into the Lychguard more with other enabling synergies (like CP expenditure, of which we don’t have a ton, or Monoliths (!!expensive)) then that’s a different question.
It the survivablity, not the lethality that is key. The invul is a must against marine AP bolter spam.
tneva82 wrote: Cheaper yes, better is depatable. Quite soft so they won't survive any serious firepower, most/all buffs work on them, no code bonuses...
Still only 11 points per T5 3+ wound.
Yes but that's not particularly tough. As I said. Quite soft. They die very fast with all the multi damage -2 good rate of fire shots around. Until meta changes dramatically they will be vaporized before getting to close combat so what they will do while alive? Not closecombat so need to do something else. No good guns so not that either. So you are basically taking them to draw firepower away from actual threat. That's the only role they have.
Also the W2 in stat line isn't all that impressive. Hopefully you don't claim it's as good as two models with 1W each because they are not. Lot softer than that.
4++ is not going to save you from high VoF incoming fire, though. It’s so low a save (50%) it’s meant for low VoF, high dog/AP Fire.
Cant you buff it to 3++ with the stratagem. What about using Veil of Darkness on them. Or dare I say a monolith. Move the monolith up and then you can TP them in, would have to be a 2nd turn thing though. Just thinking out loud, see what other options might be viable with CA out. Always good to go back and look at stuff again.
You can do all of those things, yes. But point for point, 5 Praetorians versus 5 Lychguard, you’re paying less for Praetorians for effectively the same save and lethality (actually getting more due to shooting).
If you lean into the Lychguard more with other enabling synergies (like CP expenditure, of which we don’t have a ton, or Monoliths (!!expensive)) then that’s a different question.
It the survivablity, not the lethality that is key. The invul is a must against marine AP bolter spam.
Which Lychguard will never reach without tons of resources poured into them. At least Praetorians can potentially get their points back from killing certain Primaris dudes.
I think you're missing the point Dynas is making, Lychguard are a defensive unit, not an offensive one. You want to remove our support characters LG soak up the wounds, so shoot them and watch as they pop their strategem and bounce MW's back. Killing with them is rare BUT keep in mind that most players' primary method of dealing with our infantry is by locking them down in assault, so LG have some counter assault viability there.
v0iddrgn wrote: I think you're missing the point Dynas is making, Lychguard are a defensive unit, not an offensive one. You want to remove our support characters LG soak up the wounds, so shoot them and watch as they pop their strategem and bounce MW's back. Killing with them is rare BUT keep in mind that most players' primary method of dealing with our infantry is by locking them down in assault, so LG have some counter assault viability there.
I don’t think anyone is missing his point. Lychguard are a defensive choice which for 30% more points per T5 wound you get an average 17% more survivability. If you spent the same extra points on more Praetorians, you’d end up with more wound soaking power.
And then you add increased mobility. From a purely defensive perspective, this lets you defend far more ground at 10” move than Lychguard.
Then you add lethality, which discourages some indeterminate number of attacks and in an (admittedly ideal case) you actually kill the first threat which lets you defend against the next.
Dynas and tneva also raised some synergies Lychguard can get from Monoliths etc. Which Praetorians don’t qualify for. Likewise you mentioned the reflecting stratagem that Praetorians, again, can’t benefit from. And you’re all totally correct about that. It’s not cost effective to run the Monolith (but it is super fun and fluffy!) and our CP are way too expensive to make using that stratagem an “every turn” play—but they do exist.
As a Tactics discussion I would therefore suggest that those aren’t competitively viable reasons to suggest running Lychguard over Praetorians at the new Praetorian cost of a mere 20 pts per model. They do the same job worse and for greater cost.
Doubling down on the defensive aspect of Lytchguard they are our one way to shift wounds. Playing against Raven Guard they are needed or you will not have any HQs for more then a turnor two.
Pyrothem wrote: Doubling down on the defensive aspect of Lytchguard they are our one way to shift wounds. Playing against Raven Guard they are needed or you will not have any HQs for more then a turnor two.
v0iddrgn wrote: I think you're missing the point Dynas is making, Lychguard are a defensive unit, not an offensive one. You want to remove our support characters LG soak up the wounds, so shoot them and watch as they pop their strategem and bounce MW's back. Killing with them is rare BUT keep in mind that most players' primary method of dealing with our infantry is by locking them down in assault, so LG have some counter assault viability there.
I don’t think anyone is missing his point. Lychguard are a defensive choice which for 30% more points per T5 wound you get an average 17% more survivability. If you spent the same extra points on more Praetorians, you’d end up with more wound soaking power.
And then you add increased mobility. From a purely defensive perspective, this lets you defend far more ground at 10” move than Lychguard.
Then you add lethality, which discourages some indeterminate number of attacks and in an (admittedly ideal case) you actually kill the first threat which lets you defend against the next.
Dynas and tneva also raised some synergies Lychguard can get from Monoliths etc. Which Praetorians don’t qualify for. Likewise you mentioned the reflecting stratagem that Praetorians, again, can’t benefit from. And you’re all totally correct about that. It’s not cost effective to run the Monolith (but it is super fun and fluffy!) and our CP are way too expensive to make using that stratagem an “every turn” play—but they do exist.
As a Tactics discussion I would therefore suggest that those aren’t competitively viable reasons to suggest running Lychguard over Praetorians at the new Praetorian cost of a mere 20 pts per model. They do the same job worse and for greater cost.
Eeh they get 25% less casualties against fairly common situatioe(-2 which is current meta). Can be easily 40% less or 50% less. Then if you factor in stratagem which halves vs -2, 60% less casualties vs -3.
for 18% increase 25% less casualties vs meta is cheap. You need 0 ap or -1 ap(assuming no stratagem. There lychguard takes 33% less casualties) And with bodyguard they have another role. Apart from that only thing both do is soak casualties. Neither is offensive unit as to be offensive you need to survlve to attack. And actually lychguard wins there too. Not good option but better than praetorians
v0iddrgn wrote: I think you're missing the point Dynas is making, Lychguard are a defensive unit, not an offensive one. You want to remove our support characters LG soak up the wounds, so shoot them and watch as they pop their strategem and bounce MW's back. Killing with them is rare BUT keep in mind that most players' primary method of dealing with our infantry is by locking them down in assault, so LG have some counter assault viability there.
I don’t think anyone is missing his point. Lychguard are a defensive choice which for 30% more points per T5 wound you get an average 17% more survivability. If you spent the same extra points on more Praetorians, you’d end up with more wound soaking power.
And then you add increased mobility. From a purely defensive perspective, this lets you defend far more ground at 10” move than Lychguard.
Then you add lethality, which discourages some indeterminate number of attacks and in an (admittedly ideal case) you actually kill the first threat which lets you defend against the next.
Dynas and tneva also raised some synergies Lychguard can get from Monoliths etc. Which Praetorians don’t qualify for. Likewise you mentioned the reflecting stratagem that Praetorians, again, can’t benefit from. And you’re all totally correct about that. It’s not cost effective to run the Monolith (but it is super fun and fluffy!) and our CP are way too expensive to make using that stratagem an “every turn” play—but they do exist.
As a Tactics discussion I would therefore suggest that those aren’t competitively viable reasons to suggest running Lychguard over Praetorians at the new Praetorian cost of a mere 20 pts per model. They do the same job worse and for greater cost.
Eeh they get 25% less casualties against fairly common situatioe(-2 which is current meta). Can be easily 40% less or 50% less. Then if you factor in stratagem which halves vs -2, 60% less casualties vs -3.
for 18% increase 25% less casualties vs meta is cheap. You need 0 ap or -1 ap(assuming no stratagem. There lychguard takes 33% less casualties) And with bodyguard they have another role. Apart from that only thing both do is soak casualties. Neither is offensive unit as to be offensive you need to survlve to attack. And actually lychguard wins there too. Not good option but better than praetorians
Versus AP-2 (Which I agree is the meta), 4++ versus 3+ (becoming 5+) is 50% v. 33% chance to save. There are two scenarios by which to judge this:
If you have 100 wound rolls (at -2) ignoring cost to field versus 50 models of each:
Lychguard mean saves are 50.
Praetorian mean saves are 33.
The Lychguard saved 17 more wounds than the Praetorians. 17% more wounds saved of the 100 rolls (this is the 17% I was referring to).
Lychguard absorbed 50 wounds and lost 25 models (only 650 points lost), Praetorians absorbed 77 wounds and lost 38.5 models (770 points lost).
Except no one is fielding 50 of either of these or absorbing 100 wounds (although 100 shots isn’t impossible a lot of the time!).
If you have 200 points to spend on your backfield defense you get 7 Lychguard and 10 Praetorians, for example.
If you then have 28 wounds at -2:
Lychguard mean saves are 14 (14 unsaved wounds) and are wiped.
Praetorian mean saves are 9 (19 unsaved wounds) and have one Praetorian at one wound left.
What this means is that if cost is no object, and you want to ignore mobility and lethality, then Lychguard with 4++ could present a better cost effectiveness—which is a peculiar argument if cost is no object.
If you factor in costs, Praetorians are better value and even more survivable (Which is what Slayer was saying), and then have a bunch of ancillary benefits built into their cost.
Lychguard have ancillary benefits too, but you have to pay more points and/or CP to get them... which just adds to their cost.
TP would have to start out with 18 models more to come out with 6 alive.
For this isolated case, LG would be 50% more effective in defence. Counter-balance that to the cost ratio, for this very isolated comparison.
(Just like if you were to boost Nihilakh wraiths to 2++, that would be a 100% improvement from 3++. Those 2++ wraiths soak wounds as twice as many 3++ wraiths could.)
Both units seem vastly inferior to Wraith so I'm not sure I see the value in the debate. Pretorians don't do anything that Wraith can't do better. Shield Guard acting as ablative wounds for characters is a horribly inefficient use of points. The only thing remotely noteworthy you can do with either of these units is to take a 10 strong Scytheguard unit and teleport it into combat with some buffs on. At least then you've got something a lot deadlier than Wraith, or any other CC option in the codex.
TP would have to start out with 18 models more to come out with 6 alive.
For this isolated case, LG would be 50% more effective in defence. Counter-balance that to the cost ratio, for this very isolated comparison.
(Just like if you were to boost Nihilakh wraiths to 2++, that would be a 100% improvement from 3++. Those 2++ wraiths soak wounds as twice as many 3++ wraiths could.)
The 50% improvement versus 17% better is a semantic point; being 17% better than 33% is a 50% improvement. Both statements are still true. Using your example, 33% of TP survived versus the 50% of LG which survived, which was a 17% survival rate drop.
What isn’t the case is your statement that the improvement translates to model count differentials—you’re accidentally double dipping on your improvement. You only need 17% more TP than LG to equal wound soaking potential. See the worked examples provided.
Then further, due to low value breakpoints applicable to max squad sizes, there are niche cases where for the same points spent, absorbing the same AP-2 shots, more Praetorians survive than Lychguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Both units seem vastly inferior to Wraith so I'm not sure I see the value in the debate. Pretorians don't do anything that Wraith can't do better. Shield Guard acting as ablative wounds for characters is a horribly inefficient use of points. The only thing remotely noteworthy you can do with either of these units is to take a 10 strong Scytheguard unit and teleport it into combat with some buffs on. At least then you've got something a lot deadlier than Wraith, or any other CC option in the codex.
Wraiths with 3 wounds and a 67% save chance have 2.01 effective wounds, which at 41 points are 20 points per wound.
Praetorians with 2 wounds and a 33% save chance (versus AP-2) have 0.66 effective wounds, which at 20 points are 30 points per wound.
It isn’t a “seem”; Praetorians absolutely are worse than Wraiths in an AP-2 meta.
Well ap 2 weapons with dmg one you need 40 damn shots to kill one wraith average
( str4)
Same ammount kill 3 pretorians
One wraith cost less than three pretorians
Only good chance is hop from cover to cover with prets than it's a bit better
The 40 shots will kill two so pretty even
v0iddrgn wrote: I think you're missing the point Dynas is making, Lychguard are a defensive unit, not an offensive one. You want to remove our support characters LG soak up the wounds, so shoot them and watch as they pop their strategem and bounce MW's back. Killing with them is rare BUT keep in mind that most players' primary method of dealing with our infantry is by locking them down in assault, so LG have some counter assault viability there.
I don’t think anyone is missing his point. Lychguard are a defensive choice which for 30% more points per T5 wound you get an average 17% more survivability. If you spent the same extra points on more Praetorians, you’d end up with more wound soaking power.
And then you add increased mobility. From a purely defensive perspective, this lets you defend far more ground at 10” move than Lychguard.
Then you add lethality, which discourages some indeterminate number of attacks and in an (admittedly ideal case) you actually kill the first threat which lets you defend against the next.
Dynas and tneva also raised some synergies Lychguard can get from Monoliths etc. Which Praetorians don’t qualify for. Likewise you mentioned the reflecting stratagem that Praetorians, again, can’t benefit from. And you’re all totally correct about that. It’s not cost effective to run the Monolith (but it is super fun and fluffy!) and our CP are way too expensive to make using that stratagem an “every turn” play—but they do exist.
As a Tactics discussion I would therefore suggest that those aren’t competitively viable reasons to suggest running Lychguard over Praetorians at the new Praetorian cost of a mere 20 pts per model. They do the same job worse and for greater cost.
Eeh they get 25% less casualties against fairly common situatioe(-2 which is current meta). Can be easily 40% less or 50% less. Then if you factor in stratagem which halves vs -2, 60% less casualties vs -3.
for 18% increase 25% less casualties vs meta is cheap. You need 0 ap or -1 ap(assuming no stratagem. There lychguard takes 33% less casualties) And with bodyguard they have another role. Apart from that only thing both do is soak casualties. Neither is offensive unit as to be offensive you need to survlve to attack. And actually lychguard wins there too. Not good option but better than praetorians
Said stratagem just means they go back to the other weapons that kill them more easily for the points compared to Praetorians. Praetorians can also take advantage of not being able to be shot for a turn and charge over terrain with absolutely no support.
That seems to be the grand point you're missing. Lychguard only appear better as you're constantly saying you should pour resources of Characters and CP into them, both of which are better off being used on Wraiths. Praetorians have just enough independence to be a distraction and tie units up in melee to force them to fall back, all for 10-11 points per T5 3+ wound. Also the bodyguard ability for Lychguard is largely pointless so trying to bring that up as a benefit is pretty silly don't you think?
If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
demonwalker wrote: So I just decided to skim this to see if there are any good Necron tactics that might make me want to play them again, and now i'm curious on a few things (Please bare with me, I haven't gotten to play in over a year, and it's been longer since I touched Necrons).
DDA are good? I had it in my head once the codex dropped that they were slightly overcosted for a unit that couldn't move. I was taking instead for my Anti Tank 3 squads of Destroyers with a single Heavy in each. I also was just using VOF from other units to take more worrying ones down. Should I actually go out and buy some DDA then?
And are TB any good still? I remember running 6 man squads with Gauss, Shadowlooms, and Shieldvanes.
I'm also seeing a lot of QS being stated as really good, but I know in my meta everyone would use D2 or D3 weapons, so I rarely actually got my QS save. I take it my meta is just a one off then?
I don't see anyone saying anything about the Voltaic Staff, so I guess it's a crappy Relic? I was taking it on my Destroyer Lord and it worked out okay.
Now I don't even know what to take anymore. Anyone know a good spot I can relearn what in my book is actually good and what isn't?
3 DDa is pretty standard fare for Necrons like Exorcists in a Sisters army.
Tomb Blades are QUITE good as they can deliver a lot of pain and are very hearty and very fast, cant get tapped in combat, can be resurrected, and the list goes on. Strong unit.
I like the Voltaic Staff. I think our relics usually are almost picked FOR us. Veil is making it into 80% of lists. So...
Pyrothem wrote: If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
THIS^
I rely on my characters to actually buff my units. With the new meta being SM with easy access to lethal sniper fire I find myself willing to sink points into ablative wounds so that it is more of a waste of time than a game winning tactic.
Pyrothem wrote: If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
THIS^
I rely on my characters to actually buff my units. With the new meta being SM with easy access to lethal sniper fire I find myself willing to sink points into ablative wounds so that it is more of a waste of time than a game winning tactic.
Oh please. Even Eliminators aren't THAT dangerous. Plus if they're running Raven Guard they won't get a bonus until T2, and trust me as a Raven Guard player when I say you got a LOT more to be afraid of than some Snipers trying to kill a Cryptek.
v0iddrgn wrote: I think you're missing the point Dynas is making, Lychguard are a defensive unit, not an offensive one. You want to remove our support characters LG soak up the wounds, so shoot them and watch as they pop their strategem and bounce MW's back. Killing with them is rare BUT keep in mind that most players' primary method of dealing with our infantry is by locking them down in assault, so LG have some counter assault viability there.
I don’t think anyone is missing his point. Lychguard are a defensive choice which for 30% more points per T5 wound you get an average 17% more survivability. If you spent the same extra points on more Praetorians, you’d end up with more wound soaking power.
And then you add increased mobility. From a purely defensive perspective, this lets you defend far more ground at 10” move than Lychguard.
Then you add lethality, which discourages some indeterminate number of attacks and in an (admittedly ideal case) you actually kill the first threat which lets you defend against the next.
Dynas and tneva also raised some synergies Lychguard can get from Monoliths etc. Which Praetorians don’t qualify for. Likewise you mentioned the reflecting stratagem that Praetorians, again, can’t benefit from. And you’re all totally correct about that. It’s not cost effective to run the Monolith (but it is super fun and fluffy!) and our CP are way too expensive to make using that stratagem an “every turn” play—but they do exist.
As a Tactics discussion I would therefore suggest that those aren’t competitively viable reasons to suggest running Lychguard over Praetorians at the new Praetorian cost of a mere 20 pts per model. They do the same job worse and for greater cost.
Eeh they get 25% less casualties against fairly common situatioe(-2 which is current meta). Can be easily 40% less or 50% less. Then if you factor in stratagem which halves vs -2, 60% less casualties vs -3.
for 18% increase 25% less casualties vs meta is cheap. You need 0 ap or -1 ap(assuming no stratagem. There lychguard takes 33% less casualties) And with bodyguard they have another role. Apart from that only thing both do is soak casualties. Neither is offensive unit as to be offensive you need to survlve to attack. And actually lychguard wins there too. Not good option but better than praetorians
Versus AP-2 (Which I agree is the meta), 4++ versus 3+ (becoming 5+) is 50% v. 33% chance to save. There are two scenarios by which to judge this:
If you have 100 wound rolls (at -2) ignoring cost to field versus 50 models of each:
Lychguard mean saves are 50.
Praetorian mean saves are 33.
The Lychguard saved 17 more wounds than the Praetorians. 17% more wounds saved of the 100 rolls (this is the 17% I was referring to).
Lychguard absorbed 50 wounds and lost 25 models (only 650 points lost), Praetorians absorbed 77 wounds and lost 38.5 models (770 points lost).
Except no one is fielding 50 of either of these or absorbing 100 wounds (although 100 shots isn’t impossible a lot of the time!).
If you have 200 points to spend on your backfield defense you get 7 Lychguard and 10 Praetorians, for example.
If you then have 28 wounds at -2:
Lychguard mean saves are 14 (14 unsaved wounds) and are wiped.
Praetorian mean saves are 9 (19 unsaved wounds) and have one Praetorian at one wound left.
What this means is that if cost is no object, and you want to ignore mobility and lethality, then Lychguard with 4++ could present a better cost effectiveness—which is a peculiar argument if cost is no object.
If you factor in costs, Praetorians are better value and even more survivable (Which is what Slayer was saying), and then have a bunch of ancillary benefits built into their cost.
Lychguard have ancillary benefits too, but you have to pay more points and/or CP to get them... which just adds to their cost.
Great break down!!
I have been running 10 S/B Lychguard for about a year now and all this talk about which is better is pointless. They are totally different units that do totally different things.
I run them as shock troops that stand in front of my army and absorb things coming at me from the front. Their first obj it to guard the army, 2nd to guard characters, and 3rd to deal with stuff when they do get into combat. Praetorian, have mostly 1 obj which is to kill some stuff.
In most of my games they end up dead at some point but the amount of fire they can absorb is fantastic. For example the 1 time they died on turn one it took an entire guard army shooting everything at them. Sure they died but then nothing else did, which left everything else to shoot back.
I cannot say enough about taking wounds off of characters. I have a good amount of snipers I play against and these guys just counter that.
Lastly, dealing with a demon prince or BDrone with Lychguard around is just so much easier. I have had them take a charge from both and make and a squad of these guys just doesnt really care. Not to mention when the charge happens to a character and they drop a bunch of attacks on your overlord only to see them converted to mortal wounds on your lychguard.
Its apples and oranges and you should be using one or the other based on what you need them to do.
Pyrothem wrote: If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
THIS^
I rely on my characters to actually buff my units. With the new meta being SM with easy access to lethal sniper fire I find myself willing to sink points into ablative wounds so that it is more of a waste of time than a game winning tactic.
Oh please. Even Eliminators aren't THAT dangerous. Plus if they're running Raven Guard they won't get a bonus until T2, and trust me as a Raven Guard player when I say you got a LOT more to be afraid of than some Snipers trying to kill a Cryptek.
Bwahahaha! Our characters are paper! Whatever, think what you want.
People that play 3 Doomsday Arks, what are your thoughts on replacing one for a unit of Heavy Destroyers with a regular Lord (using the spare points from Imotekh's point drop)?
3 shots hitting on 2s (MWBD), rerolling 1s and wounding on 3s re-rolling 1s against most tanks. What are your thoughts on this?
For pure anti Tank they work fine I tested them in some games after ca now.
But they aren't Doomsday arcs.
No blocking no gauss and less survivable.
But 3x3 desrtroyer are 336 3 ddas are 480.
You can easy hide 3x3 heavy destroyer come out and shoot and hold them in cover. For the points the output is great
Pyrothem wrote: If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
THIS^
I rely on my characters to actually buff my units. With the new meta being SM with easy access to lethal sniper fire I find myself willing to sink points into ablative wounds so that it is more of a waste of time than a game winning tactic.
Oh please. Even Eliminators aren't THAT dangerous. Plus if they're running Raven Guard they won't get a bonus until T2, and trust me as a Raven Guard player when I say you got a LOT more to be afraid of than some Snipers trying to kill a Cryptek.
Bwahahaha! Our characters are paper! Whatever, think what you want.
Well did you do the math on various Snipers trying to kill the characters or are you just fear mongering?
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elook wrote: People that play 3 Doomsday Arks, what are your thoughts on replacing one for a unit of Heavy Destroyers with a regular Lord (using the spare points from Imotekh's point drop)?
3 shots hitting on 2s (MWBD), rerolling 1s and wounding on 3s re-rolling 1s against most tanks. What are your thoughts on this?
Don't Lords only affect Infantry with that bubble? I'm probably remembering wrong.
In either case, the three shots from the Heavy Destroyers will go much further mostly because of their innate reroll to hit anyway. What's the rest of the list?
Pyrothem wrote: If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
THIS^
I rely on my characters to actually buff my units. With the new meta being SM with easy access to lethal sniper fire I find myself willing to sink points into ablative wounds so that it is more of a waste of time than a game winning tactic.
Oh please. Even Eliminators aren't THAT dangerous. Plus if they're running Raven Guard they won't get a bonus until T2, and trust me as a Raven Guard player when I say you got a LOT more to be afraid of than some Snipers trying to kill a Cryptek.
Bwahahaha! Our characters are paper! Whatever, think what you want.
Well did you do the math on various Snipers trying to kill the characters or are you just fear mongering?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
elook wrote: People that play 3 Doomsday Arks, what are your thoughts on replacing one for a unit of Heavy Destroyers with a regular Lord (using the spare points from Imotekh's point drop)?
3 shots hitting on 2s (MWBD), rerolling 1s and wounding on 3s re-rolling 1s against most tanks. What are your thoughts on this?
Don't Lords only affect Infantry with that bubble? I'm probably remembering wrong.
In either case, the three shots from the Heavy Destroyers will go much further mostly because of their innate reroll to hit anyway. What's the rest of the list?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The post in context is asking about removing Heavy Destroyers for a Lord to babysit the Doom Arks, hence my question about clarification.
Incorrect, he specifically mentions taking the lord with the HD, as well as giving the reroll 1s to them
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The post in context is asking about removing Heavy Destroyers for a Lord to babysit the Doom Arks, hence my question about clarification.
Incorrect, he specifically mentions taking the lord with the HD, as well as giving the reroll 1s to them
WOW I completely misread that. My apologies for trying to post at 2 in the morning.
Pyrothem wrote: If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
THIS^
I rely on my characters to actually buff my units. With the new meta being SM with easy access to lethal sniper fire I find myself willing to sink points into ablative wounds so that it is more of a waste of time than a game winning tactic.
Oh please. Even Eliminators aren't THAT dangerous. Plus if they're running Raven Guard they won't get a bonus until T2, and trust me as a Raven Guard player when I say you got a LOT more to be afraid of than some Snipers trying to kill a Cryptek.
Bwahahaha! Our characters are paper! Whatever, think what you want.
Well did you do the math on various Snipers trying to kill the characters or are you fear mongering
Crypteks are egregiously overcosted for their stats. 80 points for T4 4W 4+Sv! Mortis rounds will shred a Cryptek, heaven forbid you actually invest in additional wargear on him. Lords should become more common since they are the cheapest option we have and pass out a very useful buff, most of the time they are sitting with T5 4W 3+Sv because everyone already runs VoD and Weave is not worth it 19 times out of 20. Overlords are barely better than that with a 4++ and an extra wound. Unless all you run are Imotekh, OL's and DLords you're giving up head hunter for basically free. Even without snipers most opponents want to assault us because we are weak there. All our HQ's go *poof* in assault. You don't need math hammer to know I'm right unless you're daft.
Pyrothem wrote: If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
THIS^
I rely on my characters to actually buff my units. With the new meta being SM with easy access to lethal sniper fire I find myself willing to sink points into ablative wounds so that it is more of a waste of time than a game winning tactic.
Oh please. Even Eliminators aren't THAT dangerous. Plus if they're running Raven Guard they won't get a bonus until T2, and trust me as a Raven Guard player when I say you got a LOT more to be afraid of than some Snipers trying to kill a Cryptek.
Bwahahaha! Our characters are paper! Whatever, think what you want.
Well did you do the math on various Snipers trying to kill the characters or are you fear mongering
Crypteks are egregiously overcosted for their stats. 80 points for T4 4W 4+Sv! Mortis rounds will shred a Cryptek, heaven forbid you actually invest in additional wargear on him. Lords should become more common since they are the cheapest option we have and pass out a very useful buff, most of the time they are sitting with T5 4W 3+Sv because everyone already runs VoD and Weave is not worth it 19 times out of 20. Overlords are barely better than that with a 4++ and an extra wound. Unless all you run are Imotekh, OL's and DLords you're giving up head hunter for basically free. Even without snipers most opponents want to assault us because we are weak there. All our HQ's go *poof* in assault. You don't need math hammer to know I'm right unless you're daft.
I don’t think the answer to “our HQs are too weak for 80+ pts!” Is to add 163% more points to your list to give them effectively 3 more wounds.
Pyrothem wrote: If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
THIS^
I rely on my characters to actually buff my units. With the new meta being SM with easy access to lethal sniper fire I find myself willing to sink points into ablative wounds so that it is more of a waste of time than a game winning tactic.
Oh please. Even Eliminators aren't THAT dangerous. Plus if they're running Raven Guard they won't get a bonus until T2, and trust me as a Raven Guard player when I say you got a LOT more to be afraid of than some Snipers trying to kill a Cryptek.
Bwahahaha! Our characters are paper! Whatever, think what you want.
Well did you do the math on various Snipers trying to kill the characters or are you fear mongering
Crypteks are egregiously overcosted for their stats. 80 points for T4 4W 4+Sv! Mortis rounds will shred a Cryptek, heaven forbid you actually invest in additional wargear on him. Lords should become more common since they are the cheapest option we have and pass out a very useful buff, most of the time they are sitting with T5 4W 3+Sv because everyone already runs VoD and Weave is not worth it 19 times out of 20. Overlords are barely better than that with a 4++ and an extra wound. Unless all you run are Imotekh, OL's and DLords you're giving up head hunter for basically free. Even without snipers most opponents want to assault us because we are weak there. All our HQ's go *poof* in assault. You don't need math hammer to know I'm right unless you're daft.
Nobody is talking about Crypteks because we all already know they're garbage for the points. Nobody takes them so we aren't gonna bother to math them out.
Did you, yes or no, do the math on our HQs dying to various Sniper units, or are you fear mongering? It's a fairly simple question. You seem to have answered it in the post (no you didn't do the math and yes you're fear mongering) but clarification would be good.
Pyrothem wrote: If your meta has no Snipers then yes Lytchguard are not as appealing. Mine has at least a few in every SM and Admech list I play and our characters melt really fast and without buffs our infantry are just so so with a short range.
THIS^
I rely on my characters to actually buff my units. With the new meta being SM with easy access to lethal sniper fire I find myself willing to sink points into ablative wounds so that it is more of a waste of time than a game winning tactic.
Oh please. Even Eliminators aren't THAT dangerous. Plus if they're running Raven Guard they won't get a bonus until T2, and trust me as a Raven Guard player when I say you got a LOT more to be afraid of than some Snipers trying to kill a Cryptek.
Bwahahaha! Our characters are paper! Whatever, think what you want.
Well did you do the math on various Snipers trying to kill the characters or are you fear mongering
Crypteks are egregiously overcosted for their stats. 80 points for T4 4W 4+Sv! Mortis rounds will shred a Cryptek, heaven forbid you actually invest in additional wargear on him. Lords should become more common since they are the cheapest option we have and pass out a very useful buff, most of the time they are sitting with T5 4W 3+Sv because everyone already runs VoD and Weave is not worth it 19 times out of 20. Overlords are barely better than that with a 4++ and an extra wound. Unless all you run are Imotekh, OL's and DLords you're giving up head hunter for basically free. Even without snipers most opponents want to assault us because we are weak there. All our HQ's go *poof* in assault. You don't need math hammer to know I'm right unless you're daft.
Is Head Hunter some tournament thing, ITC maybe?
I just play with the brb, Codex and CA's for missions and terrain rules.
I'm making a 1k Novokh melee list. Planning to run an Overlord with 10 Lychguard (my local gaming group allows me to mix weapon Options). I want to try a News artifact (always taking VoD gets boring). What would bei the best Option? More survival with Sempiternal Weave or Nightmare Shroud. Or more DMG with Blood Scythe or Voidreaper (Currently planning in using the Voidscythe)?
Considering 99% of my Necron lists have 2 characters though, my opponent would never be able to max out headhunter. So they'd probably pick something else.
Dynas wrote: The other question becomes: what to drop to take either Lychguard or Praetorians.
Im referring to the Doom 6+Immortals + (Tomb blades, wraiths, or destroyers) as desired list we see in most ITC tourneys.
They aren't better than any of them. If you were taking 30 immortals, you could drop that down to 15 and get some praetorians as backfield objective holders maybe.
IanVanCheese wrote: On just a normal Overlord I'd say just the Bloody Scythe or Voidscythe.
Destroyer Lord = Nanoscarab Casket, Lord = Lightning Field.
Thx for the tip.
To all others. I know that neither the Overlord nor Lychguard are rly that great. My list is for my casual gaming group. I'm also using 10 Deathmarks to weaken my list. (My winrate in my local group ist around 90% and the others are starting to not play against me so i want to make it easier for them).
So my question wasn't what to use instead of the Overlord or Lychguard but instead about the pro and con for the different artifacts.
IanVanCheese wrote: On just a normal Overlord I'd say just the Bloody Scythe or Voidscythe.
Destroyer Lord = Nanoscarab Casket, Lord = Lightning Field.
Thx for the tip.
To all others. I know that neither the Overlord nor Lychguard are rly that great. My list is for my casual gaming group. I'm also using 10 Deathmarks to weaken my list. (My winrate in my local group ist around 90% and the others are starting to not play against me so i want to make it easier for them).
So my question wasn't what to use instead of the Overlord or Lychguard but instead about the pro and con for the different artifacts.
OK Guys you are missing my point. I don't want to have a list where everything ist optimized. This list is just for fun games with my friends. And as previously said i want to try and use a different artifact than the VoD since i'm using it almost every game and i'm using Deathmarks to make it weaker (and fill the Detachment since i don't own Flayed Ones).
@tneva82 what do you mean with 2 artifacts in one Hero? I Just posted my OL with Sempiternal Weave. It can bei replaced with any of the other 3 i stated befor
If his opponents are playing lists so weak that they're not enjoying playing against him then yes, maybe he DOES need play a weaker list. It's that or help his friends get stronger lists, which they may not be able to afford. This hobby is expensive after all. He's telling you the meta and where he wants to fit in the meta. If all you have to say is "you're stupid and your meta is dumb," why say anything?
IanVanCheese wrote: On just a normal Overlord I'd say just the Bloody Scythe or Voidscythe.
Destroyer Lord = Nanoscarab Casket, Lord = Lightning Field.
Thx for the tip.
To all others. I know that neither the Overlord nor Lychguard are rly that great. My list is for my casual gaming group. I'm also using 10 Deathmarks to weaken my list. (My winrate in my local group ist around 90% and the others are starting to not play against me so i want to make it easier for them).
So my question wasn't what to use instead of the Overlord or Lychguard but instead about the pro and con for the different artifacts.
Here is the list i'm planning for all that want it. Yes i previously said it was 10 Deathmarks sry.
What models do you have available, and what are your opponents fielding? Its hard to give adequate suggestions without knowing all of the variables. The list you provided does seem pretty weak. I would replace the nightbringer with something else though; he can be an absolute bastard if you aren't ready for him. Unless you are planning on using him stupidly, like not screening him with scarabs.
Something to keep in mind Necrons are very very powerful in low point games it is when you get to 1500+ and above that the Necrons rules fail to do anything.
If you want people to have an easier time with Necrons just increase the points and troops will Melt with no chance to RP and Living Metal will not get to happen.
So having trouble deciding on a warlord trait, running an overlord with a warscythe (it's what I have right now, and CCB won't fit in the list). what warlord trait(s) should I be looking at?
Also, on this "lychguard story" had eldar shooting at my lychguard 2 games ago, and I had enabled disruption fields (this sounds wrong, the 3++ thing), I did almost as many mortal wounds back to him as he did to me, I think it was something like 8 mortal wounds to 10 wounds received (and it took him 3 turns to wipe them, and then only because I did the stupid and didn't use my resurrection orb when I knew I should). Of course in my next game against sisters, they just chewed right through my lychguard as if they were made of paper.
xenoterracide wrote: So having trouble deciding on a warlord trait, running an overlord with a warscythe (it's what I have right now, and CCB won't fit in the list). what warlord trait(s) should I be looking at?
Also, on this "lychguard story" had eldar shooting at my lychguard 2 games ago, and I had enabled disruption fields (this sounds wrong, the 3++ thing), I did almost as many mortal wounds back to him as he did to me, I think it was something like 8 mortal wounds to 10 wounds received (and it took him 3 turns to wipe them, and then only because I did the stupid and didn't use my resurrection orb when I knew I should). Of course in my next game against sisters, they just chewed right through my lychguard as if they were made of paper.
Immune to moral thing if you are running lots of warriors can be helpful though have found that not particularly needed. Unit tends to either not be targeted(not worth the firepower) or wiped out by some nasty choppity chop unit.
If you have lychguard you could veil of darkness+reroll charges them. 78% chance of actually making into combat though horribly resource intensive. Still that + wraith unit charging into T1 is at least fun for casual games.
Other than that -1 damage or -1 to hit depending on what kind of attacks I expect is old trusty one for me.
If you are sautekh pretty sure the CP resurection is best one.
For 3++ thing there's this thing called luck. You don't have even that good odds of making 2 MW's with 10 wounds taken.
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ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Anyone has a competitive 1k list? Everyone is about how Necrons are strong at 1k but I dont share this opinion.
Overlord, lord, 2x10 and 5ximmortals, 3xdda. Maybe swap immortal and lord for cryptek since now you can actually use the RP with decent frequency.
IanVanCheese wrote: On just a normal Overlord I'd say just the Bloody Scythe or Voidscythe.
Destroyer Lord = Nanoscarab Casket, Lord = Lightning Field.
Thx for the tip.
To all others. I know that neither the Overlord nor Lychguard are rly that great. My list is for my casual gaming group. I'm also using 10 Deathmarks to weaken my list. (My winrate in my local group ist around 90% and the others are starting to not play against me so i want to make it easier for them).
So my question wasn't what to use instead of the Overlord or Lychguard but instead about the pro and con for the different artifacts.
Here is the list i'm planning for all that want it.
Yes i previously said it was 10 Deathmarks sry.
What models do you have available, and what are your opponents fielding? Its hard to give adequate suggestions without knowing all of the variables.
The list you provided does seem pretty weak. I would replace the nightbringer with something else though; he can be an absolute bastard if you aren't ready for him. Unless you are planning on using him stupidly, like not screening him with scarabs.
Ok first of all thx to all that understand why i play weak with my friends.
2nd I'm gonna say this again. My question was NOT what modells to change to make the list better. It was Just about which artifact to put on the OL (besides the obvious VoD). I just posted the whole list so you guys could give advice with the context of the whole list (for example since I'm running around with Lychguards maybe the OL can take more dmg in form of the Bloodsythe or the Voidreaper).
Well, you could give the lord weave and the Overlord an Orb of Eternity. The Orb of Eternity isn't great, and is arguably one of the least powerful relics we have due to its single use and its price tag, but if you are using it in conjunction with Lychguard you can get some mileage out of it without overwhelming your opponents too much.
Sure, you might get some of the guard back, but then you can't use it anymore, and are basically without a relic for the rest of the game.
Surtr wrote: OK Guys you are missing my point. I don't want to have a list where everything ist optimized. This list is just for fun games with my friends. And as previously said i want to try and use a different artifact than the VoD since i'm using it almost every game and i'm using Deathmarks to make it weaker (and fill the Detachment since i don't own Flayed Ones).
@tneva82 what do you mean with 2 artifacts in one Hero? I Just posted my OL with Sempiternal Weave. It can bei replaced with any of the other 3 i stated befor
Deathmarks are quite useful in the meta right now anyways because there are a number of things that can jump up turn one. Also Drop Pods finally got what they needed. So theres a real possibility that you can use Deathmarks to cut a combo-breaker off. Ive used the example before: Unit of 4 meltaguns drops in. Death Marks drop in. Now the meltaguns cant get buffed by the character that was supposed to buff them. Stuff like that. They can cut off a large part of the board suddenly from deep strikes, potentially holding the enemy at bay. This is of course in addition to their ability to kill characters which if you take a full unit, isn't bad at all when rapid firing. 20 Sniper shots will get ya 5 unsaved wounds a lot of the time.
They aren't Gawds gift to Necrons, that's certain. But in a friendly meta you're probably looking for flexible things that can try to do cool things and they fit the bill.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, you could give the lord weave and the Overlord an Orb of Eternity.
The Orb of Eternity isn't great, and is arguably one of the least powerful relics we have due to its single use and its price tag, but if you are using it in conjunction with Lychguard you can get some mileage out of it without overwhelming your opponents too much.
Sure, you might get some of the guard back, but then you can't use it anymore, and are basically without a relic for the rest of the game.
I don't rly want to spend the CP for the extra Artifact. I already only have 5.
As for the Orb. I don't like it since you are spending the Artifact slot for something that is just the Ressurection Orb +1 and gives you maybe 1 Lychguard.
It might be a choice for me since i'm Walking my Lychguard over the field but I think I would prefer more Tankiness or Dmg from my OL. Something that doesn't depend on luck as much as the Orb dies.
Surtr wrote: OK Guys you are missing my point. I don't want to have a list where everything ist optimized. This list is just for fun games with my friends. And as previously said i want to try and use a different artifact than the VoD since i'm using it almost every game and i'm using Deathmarks to make it weaker (and fill the Detachment since i don't own Flayed Ones).
@tneva82 what do you mean with 2 artifacts in one Hero? I Just posted my OL with Sempiternal Weave. It can bei replaced with any of the other 3 i stated befor
Deathmarks are quite useful in the meta right now anyways because there are a number of things that can jump up turn one. Also Drop Pods finally got what they needed. So theres a real possibility that you can use Deathmarks to cut a combo-breaker off. Ive used the example before: Unit of 4 meltaguns drops in. Death Marks drop in. Now the meltaguns cant get buffed by the character that was supposed to buff them. Stuff like that. They can cut off a large part of the board suddenly from deep strikes, potentially holding the enemy at bay. This is of course in addition to their ability to kill characters which if you take a full unit, isn't bad at all when rapid firing. 20 Sniper shots will get ya 5 unsaved wounds a lot of the time.
They aren't Gawds gift to Necrons, that's certain. But in a friendly meta you're probably looking for flexible things that can try to do cool things and they fit the bill.
Yeah. Especially in Low Point Games can they be a real nuissance. Had a few Games where i used 10 to hurt the Infantry after deepstriking and at the same time block the escape path of a Lemon Russ so he couldn't use the Double moving (don't know the Name) to escape from my wraith. Even had one Game where they managed a multi Charge on 3 Units locking them in Combat.
Surtr wrote: OK Guys you are missing my point. I don't want to have a list where everything ist optimized. This list is just for fun games with my friends. And as previously said i want to try and use a different artifact than the VoD since i'm using it almost every game and i'm using Deathmarks to make it weaker (and fill the Detachment since i don't own Flayed Ones).
@tneva82 what do you mean with 2 artifacts in one Hero? I Just posted my OL with Sempiternal Weave. It can bei replaced with any of the other 3 i stated befor
Deathmarks are quite useful in the meta right now anyways because there are a number of things that can jump up turn one. Also Drop Pods finally got what they needed. So theres a real possibility that you can use Deathmarks to cut a combo-breaker off. Ive used the example before: Unit of 4 meltaguns drops in. Death Marks drop in. Now the meltaguns cant get buffed by the character that was supposed to buff them. Stuff like that. They can cut off a large part of the board suddenly from deep strikes, potentially holding the enemy at bay. This is of course in addition to their ability to kill characters which if you take a full unit, isn't bad at all when rapid firing. 20 Sniper shots will get ya 5 unsaved wounds a lot of the time.
They aren't Gawds gift to Necrons, that's certain. But in a friendly meta you're probably looking for flexible things that can try to do cool things and they fit the bill.
First you come into the thread spewing a bunch of crap about Flayed Ones, and now you choose to do the same for Deathmarks. Can you just leave please so we can actually discuss Necrons?
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, you could give the lord weave and the Overlord an Orb of Eternity.
The Orb of Eternity isn't great, and is arguably one of the least powerful relics we have due to its single use and its price tag, but if you are using it in conjunction with Lychguard you can get some mileage out of it without overwhelming your opponents too much.
Sure, you might get some of the guard back, but then you can't use it anymore, and are basically without a relic for the rest of the game.
Orb of Eternity is still miles more useful than the Gauntlet relic. and that really says a lot about how bad it is.
First you come into the thread spewing a bunch of crap about Flayed Ones, and now you choose to do the same for Deathmarks. Can you just leave please so we can actually discuss Necrons?
Lol. I was right then and moreso now. You're constant antagonism isn't going to change that.
I qualified my statement about Deathmarks. So go fly a kite.
First you come into the thread spewing a bunch of crap about Flayed Ones, and now you choose to do the same for Deathmarks. Can you just leave please so we can actually discuss Necrons?
Lol. I was right then and moreso now. You're constant antagonism isn't going to change that.
I qualified my statement about Deathmarks. So go fly a kite.
You were not right. You consistently used the wrong stats, wrong math, and had no real data to back up your point.
In addition, Deathmarks can't drop T1-they can either start on the board, or wait for T2. They do not have an exception like Drop Pods do.
First you come into the thread spewing a bunch of crap about Flayed Ones, and now you choose to do the same for Deathmarks. Can you just leave please so we can actually discuss Necrons?
Lol. I was right then and moreso now. You're constant antagonism isn't going to change that.
I qualified my statement about Deathmarks. So go fly a kite.
You were not right. You consistently used the wrong stats, wrong math, and had no real data to back up your point.
In addition, Deathmarks can't drop T1-they can either start on the board, or wait for T2. They do not have an exception like Drop Pods do.
As I understand it he is speaking of counter deepstriking stuff T1. In my opinion the rules are not 100% clear if Ethereal Interception is except from the ban on T1 deepstriking. In my opinion it is but to be sure it would have to be FAQ.
I don't see anything that would let them break the rule of no dropping T1. GW could FAQ or Errata it so they could, but RAW right now is they cannot.
Since right now, they have a permission (May counter-Deepstrike) and a restriction (cannot Deepstrike T1). The only way to follow both is to not Deepstrike.
Yeah I don't see any real argument that Ethereal Interception has an exception to the T1 Deepstrike restriction. There are many other rules that are permissive (You can shoot x) that otherwise are stopped by restrictions.
For example, imagine in Deathmarks didn't have the ability to explicitly target characters, but still said in Ethereal Interception that they could shoot the unit that just deepstriked. If that unit was a character that wasn't the closest, Ethereal Interception saying "you can shoot them" wouldn't override the restriction.
Unless you're trying to argue that Ethereal Interception adopts the special rules of the deepstrike that it's countering, which is pretty ridiculous.
First you come into the thread spewing a bunch of crap about Flayed Ones, and now you choose to do the same for Deathmarks. Can you just leave please so we can actually discuss Necrons?
Lol. I was right then and moreso now. You're constant antagonism isn't going to change that.
I qualified my statement about Deathmarks. So go fly a kite.
Everyone here told you that you were wrong about Flayed Ones. The denial is very real.
Jancoran wrote: [
Deathmarks are quite useful in the meta right now anyways because there are a number of things that can jump up turn one. Also Drop Pods finally got what they needed. So theres a real possibility that you can use Deathmarks to cut a combo-breaker off. Ive used the example before: Unit of 4 meltaguns drops in. Death Marks drop in. Now the meltaguns cant get buffed by the character that was supposed to buff them. Stuff like that. They can cut off a large part of the board suddenly from deep strikes, potentially holding the enemy at bay. This is of course in addition to their ability to kill characters which if you take a full unit, isn't bad at all when rapid firing. 20 Sniper shots will get ya 5 unsaved wounds a lot of the time.
They aren't Gawds gift to Necrons, that's certain. But in a friendly meta you're probably looking for flexible things that can try to do cool things and they fit the bill.
T1 jumping is bad for deathmarks since they can't come out of reserve t1. They have no exception to the rule. Atm only drop pods ignore t1 limit. And you can't intercept them. And not sure you want to come and shoot at pod either. You do know right you could not shoot at the passengers right?
First you come into the thread spewing a bunch of crap about Flayed Ones, and now you choose to do the same for Deathmarks. Can you just leave please so we can actually discuss Necrons?
Lol. I was right then and moreso now. You're constant antagonism isn't going to change that.
I qualified my statement about Deathmarks. So go fly a kite.
You were not right. You consistently used the wrong stats, wrong math, and had no real data to back up your point.
In addition, Deathmarks can't drop T1-they can either start on the board, or wait for T2. They do not have an exception like Drop Pods do.
As I understand it he is speaking of counter deepstriking stuff T1. In my opinion the rules are not 100% clear if Ethereal Interception is except from the ban on T1 deepstriking. In my opinion it is but to be sure it would have to be FAQ.
It's real easy to see if they are except. Check codex and faq.
Neither gives excemption. They start off board and thus fall under rule and needs excemption
Jancoran is just saying crap. 100% what he has said are lies and incorrect statements. His flayed one clains were embarrassingly bad. They are bad even with price drop. They were obviously even worse when they cost more
OK befor we start another discussion over 5 Pages over Deathmarks like with the Flayed Ones...
I Take my earlier statement back. They are popably not except from T1 deepstrike rules while counter deepstriking.
I will try my earlier question again since I only got 1 maybe 2 answers and only about 1 of the 4 choices. So here I go...
I made a 1k Novokh list for my LOCAL gaming group. My question is only about the Artifact on the OL an about nothing else so pls don't reply with saying what Units I should Change. The list is only for fun and not supposed to be as strong as possible. I just want to know you opinions which of the following 4 Artifacts would be best for the OL.
Sempiternal Weave
Nightmare Shroud
Blood Scythe
Voidreaper
I'm giving you the list Just to see what I'm running besides the OL.
PS: My gaming group allows for Mixed weapon options on the LG so I'm running a 10 man squat with 5 Warscythe and 5 Shield/Sword.
Surtr wrote: OK befor we start another discussion over 5 Pages over Deathmarks like with the Flayed Ones...
I Take my earlier statement back. They are popably not except from T1 deepstrike rules while counter deepstriking.
I will try my earlier question again since I only got 1 maybe 2 answers and only about 1 of the 4 choices. So here I go...
I made a 1k Novokh list for my LOCAL gaming group. My question is only about the Artifact on the OL an about nothing else so pls don't reply with saying what Units I should Change. The list is only for fun and not supposed to be as strong as possible. I just want to know you opinions which of the following 4 Artifacts would be best for the OL.
Sempiternal Weave
Nightmare Shroud
Blood Scythe
Voidreaper
I'm giving you the list Just to see what I'm running besides the OL.
PS: My gaming group allows for Mixed weapon options on the LG so I'm running a 10 man squat with 5 Warscythe and 5 Shield/Sword.
Go for the Blood Scythe. I guess you can pretend to expect the LG will adequately protect the OL, and the Blood Scythe will make him a better Glorious Intervener.
Sempiternal Weave doesn't really help as much (T6 isn't that much more survivable in the kind of combat where it could matter) and the Nightmare Shroud is terrible.
The Voidreaper is a potential second choice to the Blood Scythe, but the faction specific version offers far more lethality. The Voidreaper is better than Warscythes as an option for non-Novokh CCHQs.
So, after a longer hiatus from Crones, Im ready to pick them up again. But i have no clue what so ever what to use, Im a competative player, we dont use FW. Can someone give me a breakdown what is usable?
Thank you
Belsibub wrote: So, after a longer hiatus from Crones, Im ready to pick them up again. But i have no clue what so ever what to use, Im a competative player, we dont use FW. Can someone give me a breakdown what is usable?
Thank you
40kstats dot com has you covered. You need some anti-infantry for that our best options are tesla Tomb Blades or tesla Immortals. Then you need some anti-vehicle for that our best option is Doomsday Arks. Then you can either get 3 Doomscythes for the Amalgamated Targeting Stratagem, Tesseract Arks or Ghost Arks to present an overwhelming amount of armour shielded by Quantum Shielding, Scarabs and/or Wraiths if you want a melee punch, Destroyers if you're into a glass hammer or more tesla to improve your anti-infantry. Heavy Destroyers can probably replace Destroyers after their buff, Annihilation Barges are almost as good as Ghost Arks and Triarch Praetorians might be as good as Wraiths in rare circumstances.
Surtr wrote: OK befor we start another discussion over 5 Pages over Deathmarks like with the Flayed Ones...
I Take my earlier statement back. They are popably not except from T1 deepstrike rules while counter deepstriking.
I will try my earlier question again since I only got 1 maybe 2 answers and only about 1 of the 4 choices. So here I go...
I made a 1k Novokh list for my LOCAL gaming group. My question is only about the Artifact on the OL an about nothing else so pls don't reply with saying what Units I should Change. The list is only for fun and not supposed to be as strong as possible. I just want to know you opinions which of the following 4 Artifacts would be best for the OL.
Sempiternal Weave
Nightmare Shroud
Blood Scythe
Voidreaper
I'm giving you the list Just to see what I'm running besides the OL.
PS: My gaming group allows for Mixed weapon options on the LG so I'm running a 10 man squat with 5 Warscythe and 5 Shield/Sword.
Go for the Blood Scythe. I guess you can pretend to expect the LG will adequately protect the OL, and the Blood Scythe will make him a better Glorious Intervener.
Sempiternal Weave doesn't really help as much (T6 isn't that much more survivable in the kind of combat where it could matter) and the Nightmare Shroud is terrible.
The Voidreaper is a potential second choice to the Blood Scythe, but the faction specific version offers far more lethality. The Voidreaper is better than Warscythes as an option for non-Novokh CCHQs.
Thx for the Tip. Only question i have. Since my list is lacking anti Tank. Is the Blood Scythe better than the Voidscythe against T7 / T8 Targets?
Surtr wrote: OK befor we start another discussion over 5 Pages over Deathmarks like with the Flayed Ones... I Take my earlier statement back. They are popably not except from T1 deepstrike rules while counter deepstriking.
I will try my earlier question again since I only got 1 maybe 2 answers and only about 1 of the 4 choices. So here I go...
I made a 1k Novokh list for my LOCAL gaming group. My question is only about the Artifact on the OL an about nothing else so pls don't reply with saying what Units I should Change. The list is only for fun and not supposed to be as strong as possible. I just want to know you opinions which of the following 4 Artifacts would be best for the OL. Sempiternal Weave Nightmare Shroud Blood Scythe Voidreaper
I'm giving you the list Just to see what I'm running besides the OL. PS: My gaming group allows for Mixed weapon options on the LG so I'm running a 10 man squat with 5 Warscythe and 5 Shield/Sword.
Go for the Blood Scythe. I guess you can pretend to expect the LG will adequately protect the OL, and the Blood Scythe will make him a better Glorious Intervener.
Sempiternal Weave doesn't really help as much (T6 isn't that much more survivable in the kind of combat where it could matter) and the Nightmare Shroud is terrible.
The Voidreaper is a potential second choice to the Blood Scythe, but the faction specific version offers far more lethality. The Voidreaper is better than Warscythes as an option for non-Novokh CCHQs.
Thx for the Tip. Only question i have. Since my list is lacking anti Tank. Is the Blood Scythe better than the Voidscythe against T7 / T8 Targets?
Blood Scythe increases damage by 67% against all targets. Voidreaper increases damage by 50% against models with exactly 3 wounds or an arbitrarily large number of wounds. Unless you are fighting non-Vehicle units the Blood Scythe is better anti-tank between the relics. Voidscythe does 60% more against T7 with an arbitrarily large number of wounds and 140% more against T8. Voidscythe is the weakest against infantry but can be buffed even further with MWBD.
I think the Nightmare Shroud is pretty good, useless on an Overlord but pretty good. I don't get need to not take Veil of Darkness, it's so much fun and very effective.
Surtr wrote: OK befor we start another discussion over 5 Pages over Deathmarks like with the Flayed Ones...
I Take my earlier statement back. They are popably not except from T1 deepstrike rules while counter deepstriking.
I will try my earlier question again since I only got 1 maybe 2 answers and only about 1 of the 4 choices. So here I go...
I made a 1k Novokh list for my LOCAL gaming group. My question is only about the Artifact on the OL an about nothing else so pls don't reply with saying what Units I should Change. The list is only for fun and not supposed to be as strong as possible. I just want to know you opinions which of the following 4 Artifacts would be best for the OL.
Sempiternal Weave
Nightmare Shroud
Blood Scythe
Voidreaper
I'm giving you the list Just to see what I'm running besides the OL.
PS: My gaming group allows for Mixed weapon options on the LG so I'm running a 10 man squat with 5 Warscythe and 5 Shield/Sword.
Go for the Blood Scythe. I guess you can pretend to expect the LG will adequately protect the OL, and the Blood Scythe will make him a better Glorious Intervener.
Sempiternal Weave doesn't really help as much (T6 isn't that much more survivable in the kind of combat where it could matter) and the Nightmare Shroud is terrible.
The Voidreaper is a potential second choice to the Blood Scythe, but the faction specific version offers far more lethality. The Voidreaper is better than Warscythes as an option for non-Novokh CCHQs.
Thx for the Tip. Only question i have. Since my list is lacking anti Tank. Is the Blood Scythe better than the Voidscythe against T7 / T8 Targets?
Blood Scythe increases damage by 67% against all targets. Voidreaper increases damage by 50% against models with exactly 3 wounds or an arbitrarily large number of wounds. Unless you are fighting non-Vehicle units the Blood Scythe is better anti-tank between the relics. Voidscythe does 60% more against T7 with an arbitrarily large number of wounds and 140% more against T8. Voidscythe is the weakest against infantry but can be buffed even further with MWBD.
I think the Nightmare Shroud is pretty good, useless on an Overlord but pretty good. I don't get need to not take Veil of Darkness, it's so much fun and very effective.
[/spoiler]
Nice Overview. I think i will give the Blood Scythe a go.
As for the VoD sure it is the obvious strongest and Most flexible choice but since I'm taking it 95% of the time and if Not then the lightning field (Lord or CCB) i Just wanted to give the other artifacts a chance to perform
They pretty much hit the same and wound the same against vehicles, since the Overlord using the Bloodscythe is S7 anyway. The Bloodscythe's extra D3 attacks is somewhat equivalent to the Voidreaper's D3 damage, though you are getting better value for a CP re-roll on the Voidreaper.
10 Lychguard are crying out for an Overlord with the Veil of Darkness and the Reroll charges WL trait.
I like Voidscythes for Overlords now that they are only 12pts. MWBD can fix the -1 to hit and you don't take a Relic slot up. Against most characters you will hit on 2's, wound on 2's and kill them if 2 attacks get through.
I like Voidscythes for Overlords now that they are only 12pts. MWBD can fix the -1 to hit and you don't take a Relic slot up. Against most characters you will hit on 2's, wound on 2's and kill them if 2 attacks get through.
Unfortunately our OL arent melee monsters. I have been thinking about sticking 3 novokh OL with void/warscythes in a ghost ark, then redeploy it with the deceiver, disembark, and charge. It would be a 7" charge, because of disembark within 3" plus 40mm (~1.5") base size, which would bring you to 7.5" from enemy models. One OL could be the warlord with the implacable conqueror warlord trait, to reroll failed charges.
Now you might think the OLs cant charge because of the deceivers GI rule. But they are embarked, embarked units are not on the battlefield, and the transport rule says they cant be affected by anything, so the GI rule doesnt affect them.
You could combine this with obyzahn and bring in 10 more lychguard, or any other melee unit for a decent alpha charge.
If only our ghost arks could carry lychguard, or any other melee unit
I like Voidscythes for Overlords now that they are only 12pts. MWBD can fix the -1 to hit and you don't take a Relic slot up. Against most characters you will hit on 2's, wound on 2's and kill them if 2 attacks get through.
Unfortunately our OL arent melee monsters. I have been thinking about sticking 3 novokh OL with void/warscythes in a ghost ark, then redeploy it with the deceiver, disembark, and charge. It would be a 7" charge, because of disembark within 3" plus 40mm (~1.5") base size, which would bring you to 7.5" from enemy models. One OL could be the warlord with the implacable conqueror warlord trait, to reroll failed charges.
Now you might think the OLs cant charge because of the deceivers GI rule. But they are embarked, embarked units are not on the battlefield, and the transport rule says they cant be affected by anything, so the GI rule doesnt affect them.
You could combine this with obyzahn and bring in 10 more lychguard, or any other melee unit for a decent alpha charge.
If only our ghost arks could carry lychguard, or any other melee unit
Wouldn't the OLs be able to move after disembarking, making the charge 2"?
I like Voidscythes for Overlords now that they are only 12pts. MWBD can fix the -1 to hit and you don't take a Relic slot up. Against most characters you will hit on 2's, wound on 2's and kill them if 2 attacks get through.
Unfortunately our OL arent melee monsters. I have been thinking about sticking 3 novokh OL with void/warscythes in a ghost ark, then redeploy it with the deceiver, disembark, and charge. It would be a 7" charge, because of disembark within 3" plus 40mm (~1.5") base size, which would bring you to 7.5" from enemy models. One OL could be the warlord with the implacable conqueror warlord trait, to reroll failed charges.
Now you might think the OLs cant charge because of the deceivers GI rule. But they are embarked, embarked units are not on the battlefield, and the transport rule says they cant be affected by anything, so the GI rule doesnt affect them.
You could combine this with obyzahn and bring in 10 more lychguard, or any other melee unit for a decent alpha charge.
If only our ghost arks could carry lychguard, or any other melee unit
The temptation to run this has been on my brain for months....
Now it's not obtrusively expensive, I am looking at it again
Hmm I have in my head that things that go to the transporter also count for the peapole inside. Same like you advance an open top transport people inside can't shoot
T1nk4bell wrote: Hmm I have in my head that things that go to the transporter also count for the peapole inside. Same like you advance an open top transport people inside can't shoot
I know thats true for hit mods, but I think that's it otherwise aura buffs would transfer.
T1nk4bell wrote: Hmm I have in my head that things that go to the transporter also count for the peapole inside. Same like you advance an open top transport people inside can't shoot
That is specific rule for open topped etc that allows shooting from inside. That rule can be found on relevant datasheets and ergo doesn't apply to say rhino or landraider any more than rule for say lychguard bodyguard applies to immortals
Yeah the reason they can't fire is because they're still in the transport. Since the Overlords get out, they restriction stops applying to them (though they won't be able to MWBD themselves the turn they disembark, which is annoying).
This is what I've been running after CA dropped. It's fun and has potential, but I've been playing shooty lists all edition so I am working on upping my melee game.
T1nk4bell wrote: Well I live ctan lists and think they are Pretty good now.
I would drop the night bringer for scarabs here.
I often play 2-3 deceiver + transcendent.
Well you're only ever allowed one Deceiver in a list. He's a very specific character after all.
Setting aside the result, the list looks like an interesting mix—relying on C’Tan and Tesla for anti horde, and using C’Tans as bruisers.
Feels light on screening units for dedicated CC.
Thoughts?
He is cheating with the C'Tan powers. You can not double up on them unless all have been taken. Unless he blew a bunch of CP during the game. I don't think he did.
It is I, Dio! Jk, I'm the Necron player (Ronny) in the above battle report with the C'tan spam vs Astra Militarum. The list is perfectly legal im a stickler for getting the rules correct when I play (a gift and a curse) I do swap powers mid game often when using Ctans if it fits the situation more than likely if i can bank mileage on Cosmic Fire, Thunderbolt or some times deal some few last wounds via Anti matter meteor. This is def a strong Stratagem to keep in mind every turn.
A little background on me (I play/own basically every faction) Necrons are one of my top 10 favs so im putting more effort into them as they will be my very first painted (by my own hand) faction. So you can expect more batreps and other Necron related things from www.battle-report.com
Competiively ive only attended 1 large event (BFS Team Event in 2018) to which i took Necrons which i painted to 3 color standard the week before. I went 3-0 on the first day taking on the likes of Beast Coast #2 and other good players at a time where Necrons honestly were widely considered the weakest faction (next to GK Of course) I dropped from day 2 of the event for "reasons" so i guess that's all to say you can expect to see me in the future at events trying to make Necrons Great Again. Or something do follow us if interested.
I also have play tested the hell out of Necrons both prior and post CA and id like to share my thoughts with you all even if we dont all need to necessarily agree. We can all benefit from shared experience
Post CA - Necrons Analysis
My thoughts after a lot of play testing with Necrons both prior to CA and after is as follows for those interested:
Overall Necrons want a battalion and possibly two additional specialised detachments (outrider/spearhead in most cases) to max cp count
Getting cheaper HQs which are most of the time a tax that only fills a support role in the army is very good for ensuring you can get a little extra muscle in there. Necron Lords and Overlords specially look very compelling to fit these requirements.
For starters i think you always want a solid anti tank weapon or several. Doomsday Arks x3 or Heavy Destroyers x9 seems the best suited to me to guarantee you can pack a long ranged punch. Due to the nature of Necrons most of the time you are stuck at midrange.
The outrider is where you really have the most flexibility and houses many of necrons best units. If you want to gear towards destroyers, wraiths, tomb blades this is where you want to finalize that selection to determine the rest of your list. An alternative to this outrider detachment is the Doom Scythe x3 airwing which was popularized by our very own Christopher. However i don't think that detachment is a must as the other options are solid options aswell.
What I think the airwing detachment does very well (better) is dishing out a ton of mortal wounds. Most armies just dont want any part of that but i feel thats a one turn gimmick that can fall apart if 1 flyer is dropped T1 which is very likely against most opponents.
Alternatively i have been putting serious serious play testing time with C'tans and for the most part found it to be very successful when properly supported. Without good support they perform worst than every other option mentioned prior. However with regards to tossing mortal wounds at your opponent they are the best option superior to the airwing even as they are more difficult to take out in a turn or two and can hit single targets aswell as blobs and castles. *Yes i am advocating for Ctans* post-CA they are a very respectable option for this interchangeable slot.
How many Ctans? Thats the next question i assume everyone would have. For starters always take the Deceiver if you have room for a Ctan he is the #1 draft pick because he gives you flexibility while still carrying out the main roll of mortal wound spitting just as good as any other. Secondly if you are taking more ctan take 4 total (the Deceiver+3 others) this maximizes your powers. Tested it enough to confirm its either *1* or *4* no inbetweens if you want maximum carnage.
The battalion should be the last thing you fill out specifically the HQ sections of all detachments should be our last concern as all HQs are there for support in most cases and are very interchangeable so accomodate them so they play their role while allowing the rest of your actual army to do it's job.
Pretty nice post.
I play mostly deceiver +1 transcendent and have relatively good success with 6 heavy destroyers + one dda.
Than wraiths for support the ctans. Immortal battalion with immothek, cryothek with veil and a fully bumped destroyer lord ( with two times come back chance) and - 1 dmg. 10 triarch prets with rod
Last match vs ultra Marines I tabled my opponent in turn 5
Both ctans together dished out about 39 mortals in the whole game + meele dmg done was pretty worth the points
I didn't make a batrep out of it but i did pit Necrons vs Blood Angels the very next day testing out Wraiths Post-CA + Ctan Spam and well this is the result....
T1
The Blood Angels rushed at me but i deployed so far back that nothing was charged or killed. They had 1st turn
I then charged a unit of wraiths into them and tossed a couple mortal wounds while advancing the ctans forward
T2
The "Before" image im basically surrounded by Blood Angels about to charge my Wraiths. That 3++ holds strong vs tons and tons of wounds piled on them.
Ctans move in while Wraiths entertain blobs of BA..cosmic fire x2 + Transdimensional Thunderbolt x2 does massive damage to what would otherwise be a deadlock melee battle. Ctans charge everything without an invul and kill it.
T3
Blood Angels concede after ive wiped all the strongest units in the army in the previous turn. This is the "After" photo
Pyrothem wrote: Thank you for the post very well thought out. I apologise for the C'tan powers that was my reading error.
I see in the BA battle you are rocking a Catacomb Comand barge any reason? Also are those Wrathes naked or have some whip coils since the price drop?
No worries. The choosing of powers is the reason why I think it should always be either 1 or 4 with no inbetweens. The flexibility is what you want with these, I've play tested up to the maximum of 5 def saw diminishing returns.
I play test everything I own at least once to see if it has any potential. Since the CA changes I wanted to give everything a fair shake, theory crafting is great and all but ultimately you want to also put it to practice and see the in-game value aswell. The annihilation barge did not do much for me as expected but it is pretty cheap though I think heavy destroyers would've been a better option to compliment the 2 transcendent c'tans in the spearhead.
The command barge had the solar staff (the entire army was Nephrek) so i can shutdown some overwatch before charging with the C'tans. Also I have owned this thing since 5th edition and make any excuse to include it when it isn't a huge detriment to the list. Thematically the goal of the list was to run Wraiths + C'tan to do exactly what I did to those Blood Angels. Pin something down and mortal wound it to death. I was aware though that this list would struggle hard vs flyers, I had another unrecorded game where I got completely wrecked by a 6 flyer list from Astra Militarum Scions. Thus I concluded C'tan need support to function they didn't do horrible vs the flyers the rest of the list just wasn't ready to support that at all. For that game I was testing the Zandrekh +Obyron combo with Lychguard now that it's much cheaper to execute...instant fail when I saw the wall of flyers my opponent was running.
Hello Akaiyou!
Great post and thank you for sharing your ideas here on DakkaDakka. My question is, if you're running 4 C'Tans, why not opt for the Vault instead? You're saving points and you get better value on the powers using the Vault. So yeah, just want to know your thoughts on that.
The Vault will spam out less powers per turn and is not a character that can hide. It is child's play for any built list to take out a Vault turn 1 so this is a more flexible and powerful list in my opinion.
How do you kill a nihilakh tvault camping within 3" of an objective marker with reclaim a lost empire (3+ inv) in one turn ? You can even play reclaim a lost empire twice because its not played during a phase, giving it 2+ inv. Its 4CP though. I wouldnt play it though, 566 is way to much points for what it can do.
That's not the thing. It was no problem to kill a 3++ t8 knight 28 wounds in one turn.
Wy it should be problem to kill a Modell with T7 and less wounds und one turn?
elook wrote: Hello Akaiyou!
Great post and thank you for sharing your ideas here on DakkaDakka. My question is, if you're running 4 C'Tans, why not opt for the Vault instead? You're saving points and you get better value on the powers using the Vault. So yeah, just want to know your thoughts on that.
Hi there,
To answer your question, it's actually pretty simple and covered in my previous post *I playtest everything I own* and while I do own a lot, I can hardly own everything :/ so that would be reason #1, I simply don't own a Vault so it doesn't get considered in anything I play.
That being said, I am in agreement with most of the responses to your question, the C'tans will get more mileage than a Vault on offense (quantity over quality) and are easier to defend generally via their own invul + character rule. A single vault can be killed T1 just like a Castellan Knight. However, I disagree on the ease of achieving this even when you have the right tools for the task. I often build lists that can 1 round a Knight if need be and this being a dice game, I can testify that if the stars don't align you are in for a bad day some times.
To sum that up, I wouldn't count on a single vault staying around too long in most cases so even if I owned one I would prefer 4 C'tans to 1 Vault. If you own a Vault and few C'tans I don't see a reason why not to use them in your own list. For example the Deceiver is still a very attractive choice at 180 the flexibility of redeploying things is something any list can make use of no matter what you have in it so give him a generally useful power like antimatter meteor and the vault can be the main damage dealer.
Like many of you, I am simply a fan of the Star Gods, and have tried to make them 'work' for many editions so that's yet another reason why I prefer to bring them instead of their fancy prison. Some times you should simply choose to play what you want to play.
If any are interested to see, this batrep was filmed pre-chapter approved featuring c'tan spam vs thousand sons, I personally feel after CA this whole thing just got much better value. In this game I started realizing how solid the strategy could be
I'm trying to creat a list around 1k-1,5k that with the Monolith.
This list should actually make use of the functions of the Monolith besides its shooting capabilitys.
But I don't rly like what i come up with so I would like your ideas.
Note: The list is just for fun games Not competitive.
Ye you can see the potential of bruisering with ctan pretty nice.
The list was pre ca. You got a lot point drops there now. Wraith dropped ctans dropped overlord dropped. That's a lot
I'm trying to create a list around 1k-1,5k that with the Monolith.
This list should actually make use of the functions of the Monolith besides its shooting capabilities.
But I don't really like what I come up with so I would like your ideas.
Note: The list is just for fun games Not competitive.
If it's just for fun take whatever you think is fun.Lord w. VoD & voidblade, Imotekh, 2x5 Teslamortals, 17 Warriors, Deceiver, Monolith, 3 Doomsday Arks.
I'm trying to create a list around 1k-1,5k that with the Monolith.
This list should actually make use of the functions of the Monolith besides its shooting capabilities.
But I don't really like what I come up with so I would like your ideas.
Note: The list is just for fun games Not competitive.
If it's just for fun take whatever you think is fun.Lord w. VoD & voidblade, Imotekh, 2x5 Teslamortals, 17 Warriors, Deceiver, Monolith, 3 Doomsday Arks.
OK. When i say fun list i don't think 3 DA rly fits
Folks like Akaiyou are out there doing tons of test games (much like I’m sure you all are) trying out different configurations and opponents. There is an opportunity, I’m sure, for folks to remark on specific interactions and combinations from which the test results would be interesting. Further, I have a fairly open play group who are fine with taking requests as to their builds for testing purposes—and I’m sure the same is true for many of you.
What are some of the list/opponent interactions for which we’d like more data that folks can test and come back with results information on?
For example:
I’d like to see more data points on Necron current meta lists versus IH. My play group doesn’t have any IH players at the moment so I can’t test this before the Q2 tournament scene ramps up.
First you come into the thread spewing a bunch of crap about Flayed Ones, and now you choose to do the same for Deathmarks. Can you just leave please so we can actually discuss Necrons?
Lol. I was right then and moreso now. You're constant antagonism isn't going to change that.
I qualified my statement about Deathmarks. So go fly a kite.
You consistently used the wrong stats, wrong math, .
First you come into the thread spewing a bunch of crap about Flayed Ones, and now you choose to do the same for Deathmarks. Can you just leave please so we can actually discuss Necrons?
Lol. I was right then and moreso now. You're constant antagonism isn't going to change that.
I qualified my statement about Deathmarks. So go fly a kite.
You consistently used the wrong stats, wrong math, .
There was the rumor of Szeras getting an updated model for our PA book release, would be nice to see Pariahs again on the table though I don't see them getting new models to make it happen.
Szeras makes sense, he isn't tied to a dynastic code so he can be taken by anyone and he offers an alternative to the current cryptek lineup which is pretty bad.
On that note, it would have been nice to just get a generic cryptek model with options but I won't hold my breath there.
Red Corsair wrote: Szeras makes sense, he isn't tied to a dynastic code so he can be taken by anyone and he offers an alternative to the current cryptek lineup which is pretty bad.
On that note, it would have been nice to just get a generic cryptek model with options but I won't hold my breath there.
I've created a survey on Necron balance, it's pretty extensive but I hope you'll fill it out and provide feedback on how I can improve the format. https://surveyhero.com/c/68187f17
I tried the suggestion to use wraith as a screen to protect 3 transcendent ctans. I also added 7 scarab bases as screen. I was up against salamanders. My opponent counter deployed 6 flamestorm aggressors and two invictor warsuits. My initiative got stolen and on T1 he played two stratagems, one allowed the aggressors to auto hit with the maximum number of hits, and the other one was +1 to wound. The result was 144 flamer auto hits with +1 to wound, killing all of my 6 wraith, then intercessors killed the scarabs. The warsuits shot the ctans, did some damage, and charged them, killing two in melee. My dlord got charged by the aggressors, killing him. I managed to resurrect him with the nanoscarab casket. Result was 720 points lost in the first turn, half of my army (1.5k). In my turn i managed to kill one intercessor with the remaining ctan and his powers, and i killed one warsuit. The game was pretty much over, we still played T2, and he killed the third ctan, the dlord, and 8 tomb blades. All i had left was a cryptek and a DDA.
p5freak wrote: I tried the suggestion to use wraith as a screen to protect 3 transcendent ctans. I also added 7 scarab bases as screen. I was up against salamanders. My opponent counter deployed 6 flamestorm aggressors and two invictor warsuits. My initiative got stolen and on T1 he played two stratagems, one allowed the aggressors to auto hit with the maximum number of hits, and the other one was +1 to wound. The result was 144 flamer auto hits with +1 to wound, killing all of my 6 wraith, then intercessors killed the scarabs. The warsuits shot the ctans, did some damage, and charged them, killing two in melee. My dlord got charged by the aggressors, killing him. I managed to resurrect him with the nanoscarab casket. Result was 720 points lost in the first turn, half of my army (1.5k). In my turn i managed to kill one intercessor with the remaining ctan and his powers, and i killed one warsuit. The game was pretty much over, we still played T2, and he killed the third ctan, the dlord, and 8 tomb blades. All i had left was a cryptek and a DDA.
We played open war cards, and the deployment zones touched each other. I deployed close, to get the wraith, scarabs and ctans in range T1, not a good idea.
Well bad deployement rules and wraiths have 12+3d6 threat range. You don't need to be close to reach. If there's salamander flame aggressors you don't go close as they one shot even knights if opponent lets them close.
Next time more sensible deployement rules and kill them from far. Not much short of titan can survive getting hit by those.
8 is correct. Over 9” is 9.1”, but you only have to be within 1” of an enemy to complete a charge not in base contact. So 8.2”, +1 from MWBD to a 7.2” but you can’t roll fractions, so back to an 8.
It is I, Dio! Jk, I'm the Necron player (Ronny) in the above battle report with the C'tan spam vs Astra Militarum. The list is perfectly legal im a stickler for getting the rules correct when I play (a gift and a curse) I do swap powers mid game often when using Ctans if it fits the situation more than likely if i can bank mileage on Cosmic Fire, Thunderbolt or some times deal some few last wounds via Anti matter meteor. This is def a strong Stratagem to keep in mind every turn.
A little background on me (I play/own basically every faction) Necrons are one of my top 10 favs so im putting more effort into them as they will be my very first painted (by my own hand) faction. So you can expect more batreps and other Necron related things from www.battle-report.com
Competiively ive only attended 1 large event (BFS Team Event in 2018) to which i took Necrons which i painted to 3 color standard the week before. I went 3-0 on the first day taking on the likes of Beast Coast #2 and other good players at a time where Necrons honestly were widely considered the weakest faction (next to GK Of course) I dropped from day 2 of the event for "reasons" so i guess that's all to say you can expect to see me in the future at events trying to make Necrons Great Again. Or something do follow us if interested.
I also have play tested the hell out of Necrons both prior and post CA and id like to share my thoughts with you all even if we dont all need to necessarily agree. We can all benefit from shared experience
Post CA - Necrons Analysis
My thoughts after a lot of play testing with Necrons both prior to CA and after is as follows for those interested:
Overall Necrons want a battalion and possibly two additional specialised detachments (outrider/spearhead in most cases) to max cp count
Getting cheaper HQs which are most of the time a tax that only fills a support role in the army is very good for ensuring you can get a little extra muscle in there. Necron Lords and Overlords specially look very compelling to fit these requirements.
For starters i think you always want a solid anti tank weapon or several. Doomsday Arks x3 or Heavy Destroyers x9 seems the best suited to me to guarantee you can pack a long ranged punch. Due to the nature of Necrons most of the time you are stuck at midrange.
The outrider is where you really have the most flexibility and houses many of necrons best units. If you want to gear towards destroyers, wraiths, tomb blades this is where you want to finalize that selection to determine the rest of your list. An alternative to this outrider detachment is the Doom Scythe x3 airwing which was popularized by our very own Christopher. However i don't think that detachment is a must as the other options are solid options aswell.
What I think the airwing detachment does very well (better) is dishing out a ton of mortal wounds. Most armies just dont want any part of that but i feel thats a one turn gimmick that can fall apart if 1 flyer is dropped T1 which is very likely against most opponents.
Alternatively i have been putting serious serious play testing time with C'tans and for the most part found it to be very successful when properly supported. Without good support they perform worst than every other option mentioned prior. However with regards to tossing mortal wounds at your opponent they are the best option superior to the airwing even as they are more difficult to take out in a turn or two and can hit single targets aswell as blobs and castles. *Yes i am advocating for Ctans* post-CA they are a very respectable option for this interchangeable slot.
How many Ctans? Thats the next question i assume everyone would have. For starters always take the Deceiver if you have room for a Ctan he is the #1 draft pick because he gives you flexibility while still carrying out the main roll of mortal wound spitting just as good as any other. Secondly if you are taking more ctan take 4 total (the Deceiver+3 others) this maximizes your powers. Tested it enough to confirm its either *1* or *4* no inbetweens if you want maximum carnage.
The battalion should be the last thing you fill out specifically the HQ sections of all detachments should be our last concern as all HQs are there for support in most cases and are very interchangeable so accomodate them so they play their role while allowing the rest of your actual army to do it's job.
Have you considered running Nihilakh instead of Sautekh?
You gain Reclaim a Lost Empire, which on a C’tan gives them a 3++ (and with the right roll on Fractured Personality can in niche cases give a T.C’tan a 2++) and an extra Attack.
You gain reroll 1s to hit on your DDA backline.
You lose Imotekh (but get Trazyn with Surrogate Hosts to avoid giving up StW).
You lose Methodical Destruction, but the list seems CP hungry anyway.
You lose being able to more effectively gunship with your DDAs without worsening your chance to hit on the Doomsday Cannons.
I’m seriously considering a list of this sort for an upcoming Tournament, and came across this consideration. Thoughts?
(Edit: Autocorrect changed ‘Nihilakh’ to ‘Annihilation’.)
It is I, Dio! Jk, I'm the Necron player (Ronny) in the above battle report with the C'tan spam vs Astra Militarum. The list is perfectly legal im a stickler for getting the rules correct when I play (a gift and a curse) I do swap powers mid game often when using Ctans if it fits the situation more than likely if i can bank mileage on Cosmic Fire, Thunderbolt or some times deal some few last wounds via Anti matter meteor. This is def a strong Stratagem to keep in mind every turn.
A little background on me (I play/own basically every faction) Necrons are one of my top 10 favs so im putting more effort into them as they will be my very first painted (by my own hand) faction. So you can expect more batreps and other Necron related things from www.battle-report.com
Competiively ive only attended 1 large event (BFS Team Event in 2018) to which i took Necrons which i painted to 3 color standard the week before. I went 3-0 on the first day taking on the likes of Beast Coast #2 and other good players at a time where Necrons honestly were widely considered the weakest faction (next to GK Of course) I dropped from day 2 of the event for "reasons" so i guess that's all to say you can expect to see me in the future at events trying to make Necrons Great Again. Or something do follow us if interested.
I also have play tested the hell out of Necrons both prior and post CA and id like to share my thoughts with you all even if we dont all need to necessarily agree. We can all benefit from shared experience
Post CA - Necrons Analysis
My thoughts after a lot of play testing with Necrons both prior to CA and after is as follows for those interested:
Overall Necrons want a battalion and possibly two additional specialised detachments (outrider/spearhead in most cases) to max cp count
Getting cheaper HQs which are most of the time a tax that only fills a support role in the army is very good for ensuring you can get a little extra muscle in there. Necron Lords and Overlords specially look very compelling to fit these requirements.
For starters i think you always want a solid anti tank weapon or several. Doomsday Arks x3 or Heavy Destroyers x9 seems the best suited to me to guarantee you can pack a long ranged punch. Due to the nature of Necrons most of the time you are stuck at midrange.
The outrider is where you really have the most flexibility and houses many of necrons best units. If you want to gear towards destroyers, wraiths, tomb blades this is where you want to finalize that selection to determine the rest of your list. An alternative to this outrider detachment is the Doom Scythe x3 airwing which was popularized by our very own Christopher. However i don't think that detachment is a must as the other options are solid options aswell.
What I think the airwing detachment does very well (better) is dishing out a ton of mortal wounds. Most armies just dont want any part of that but i feel thats a one turn gimmick that can fall apart if 1 flyer is dropped T1 which is very likely against most opponents.
Alternatively i have been putting serious serious play testing time with C'tans and for the most part found it to be very successful when properly supported. Without good support they perform worst than every other option mentioned prior. However with regards to tossing mortal wounds at your opponent they are the best option superior to the airwing even as they are more difficult to take out in a turn or two and can hit single targets aswell as blobs and castles. *Yes i am advocating for Ctans* post-CA they are a very respectable option for this interchangeable slot.
How many Ctans? Thats the next question i assume everyone would have. For starters always take the Deceiver if you have room for a Ctan he is the #1 draft pick because he gives you flexibility while still carrying out the main roll of mortal wound spitting just as good as any other. Secondly if you are taking more ctan take 4 total (the Deceiver+3 others) this maximizes your powers. Tested it enough to confirm its either *1* or *4* no inbetweens if you want maximum carnage.
The battalion should be the last thing you fill out specifically the HQ sections of all detachments should be our last concern as all HQs are there for support in most cases and are very interchangeable so accomodate them so they play their role while allowing the rest of your actual army to do it's job.
Have you considered running Nihilakh instead of Sautekh?
You gain Reclaim a Lost Empire, which on a C’tan gives them a 3++ (and with the right roll on Fractured Personality can in niche cases give a T.C’tan a 2++) and an extra Attack.
You gain reroll 1s to hit on your DDA backline.
You lose Imotekh (but get Trazyn with Surrogate Hosts to avoid giving up StW).
You lose Methodical Destruction, but the list seems CP hungry anyway.
You lose being able to more effectively gunship with your DDAs without worsening your chance to hit on the Doomsday Cannons.
I’m seriously considering a list of this sort for an upcoming Tournament, and came across this consideration. Thoughts?
(Edit: Autocorrect changed ‘Nihilakh’ to ‘Annihilation’.)
C'tan (other than Vaults) don't get a Dynasty. Sautekh for DDAs is almost as good because of the increased manouverability and Methodical Destruction being more relevant for DDAs than Reclaim a Lost Empire.
Imotekh is ten times better than Trazyn, no discussion. Surrogate Hosts is crap, the cost is too big and you get one of the worst WL traits in the game as opposed to one of the top 2 WL traits in our codex.
Methodical Destruction costs the same as Reclaim, but it's way more powerful. I think you shouldn't run Nihilakh outside a DDA Spearhead or with (Gauss/Sentry) Pylons.
It is I, Dio! Jk, I'm the Necron player (Ronny) in the above battle report with the C'tan spam vs Astra Militarum. The list is perfectly legal im a stickler for getting the rules correct when I play (a gift and a curse) I do swap powers mid game often when using Ctans if it fits the situation more than likely if i can bank mileage on Cosmic Fire, Thunderbolt or some times deal some few last wounds via Anti matter meteor. This is def a strong Stratagem to keep in mind every turn.
A little background on me (I play/own basically every faction) Necrons are one of my top 10 favs so im putting more effort into them as they will be my very first painted (by my own hand) faction. So you can expect more batreps and other Necron related things from www.battle-report.com
Competiively ive only attended 1 large event (BFS Team Event in 2018) to which i took Necrons which i painted to 3 color standard the week before. I went 3-0 on the first day taking on the likes of Beast Coast #2 and other good players at a time where Necrons honestly were widely considered the weakest faction (next to GK Of course) I dropped from day 2 of the event for "reasons" so i guess that's all to say you can expect to see me in the future at events trying to make Necrons Great Again. Or something do follow us if interested.
I also have play tested the hell out of Necrons both prior and post CA and id like to share my thoughts with you all even if we dont all need to necessarily agree. We can all benefit from shared experience
Post CA - Necrons Analysis
My thoughts after a lot of play testing with Necrons both prior to CA and after is as follows for those interested:
Overall Necrons want a battalion and possibly two additional specialised detachments (outrider/spearhead in most cases) to max cp count
Getting cheaper HQs which are most of the time a tax that only fills a support role in the army is very good for ensuring you can get a little extra muscle in there. Necron Lords and Overlords specially look very compelling to fit these requirements.
For starters i think you always want a solid anti tank weapon or several. Doomsday Arks x3 or Heavy Destroyers x9 seems the best suited to me to guarantee you can pack a long ranged punch. Due to the nature of Necrons most of the time you are stuck at midrange.
The outrider is where you really have the most flexibility and houses many of necrons best units. If you want to gear towards destroyers, wraiths, tomb blades this is where you want to finalize that selection to determine the rest of your list. An alternative to this outrider detachment is the Doom Scythe x3 airwing which was popularized by our very own Christopher. However i don't think that detachment is a must as the other options are solid options aswell.
What I think the airwing detachment does very well (better) is dishing out a ton of mortal wounds. Most armies just dont want any part of that but i feel thats a one turn gimmick that can fall apart if 1 flyer is dropped T1 which is very likely against most opponents.
Alternatively i have been putting serious serious play testing time with C'tans and for the most part found it to be very successful when properly supported. Without good support they perform worst than every other option mentioned prior. However with regards to tossing mortal wounds at your opponent they are the best option superior to the airwing even as they are more difficult to take out in a turn or two and can hit single targets aswell as blobs and castles. *Yes i am advocating for Ctans* post-CA they are a very respectable option for this interchangeable slot.
How many Ctans? Thats the next question i assume everyone would have. For starters always take the Deceiver if you have room for a Ctan he is the #1 draft pick because he gives you flexibility while still carrying out the main roll of mortal wound spitting just as good as any other. Secondly if you are taking more ctan take 4 total (the Deceiver+3 others) this maximizes your powers. Tested it enough to confirm its either *1* or *4* no inbetweens if you want maximum carnage.
The battalion should be the last thing you fill out specifically the HQ sections of all detachments should be our last concern as all HQs are there for support in most cases and are very interchangeable so accomodate them so they play their role while allowing the rest of your actual army to do it's job.
Have you considered running Nihilakh instead of Sautekh?
You gain Reclaim a Lost Empire, which on a C’tan gives them a 3++ (and with the right roll on Fractured Personality can in niche cases give a T.C’tan a 2++) and an extra Attack.
You gain reroll 1s to hit on your DDA backline.
You lose Imotekh (but get Trazyn with Surrogate Hosts to avoid giving up StW).
You lose Methodical Destruction, but the list seems CP hungry anyway.
You lose being able to more effectively gunship with your DDAs without worsening your chance to hit on the Doomsday Cannons.
I’m seriously considering a list of this sort for an upcoming Tournament, and came across this consideration. Thoughts?
(Edit: Autocorrect changed ‘Nihilakh’ to ‘Annihilation’.)
C'tan (other than Vaults) don't get a Dynasty. Sautekh for DDAs is almost as good because of the increased manouverability and Methodical Destruction being more relevant for DDAs than Reclaim a Lost Empire.
Imotekh is ten times better than Trazyn, no discussion. Surrogate Hosts is crap, the cost is too big and you get one of the worst WL traits in the game as opposed to one of the top 2 WL traits in our codex.
Methodical Destruction costs the same as Reclaim, but it's way more powerful. I think you shouldn't run Nihilakh outside a DDA Spearhead or with (Gauss/Sentry) Pylons.
Oh of course! I forgot footslogging C’tans don’t have Dynasty keywords.
Yea, nearly all the benefits evaporate at that point aside from helping the DDAs if the plan is for them to be stationary.
It could help a Wraith escort/screen if the scoring system is ETC with objective markers literally everywhere.
When in the OP did anyone say anything about MWBD???? I clearly read what was written and didnt not invent other things that were not say.
The Overlord gives one infantry unit MWBD. So obviously the Lychguard would be given MWBD so even if VoD 9" away they still make a 8" charge with +1 to charge from MWBD.
If I was you man, I would read the codex before posting stuff online and looking dumb. The OP doesn't need to state anything about MWBD because it's already presumed to be given to them.
When in the OP did anyone say anything about MWBD???? I clearly read what was written and didnt not invent other things that were not say.
The Overlord gives one infantry unit MWBD. So obviously the Lychguard would be given MWBD so even if VoD 9" away they still make a 8" charge with +1 to charge from MWBD.
If I was you man, I would read the codex before posting stuff online and looking dumb. The OP doesn't need to state anything about MWBD because it's already presumed to be given to them.
Smdh.
You have to be intentionally missing the point.
I commented on another post about needing a 8'' to charge when using veil when that is not true. Its a 9''
If the comment said you need an 8'' when using veil and MWBD that is totally different. But since that was not what was said I wasnt going to make assumptions and would rather than some new player coming along seeing misinformation and then trying to play it incorrectly in a game. (I have seen this specifically happen with deep striking and charging as I am sure most of us have)
I am not even going to go into your "If I was you" comment as its just coming off as ego.
When in the OP did anyone say anything about MWBD???? I clearly read what was written and didnt not invent other things that were not say.
The Overlord gives one infantry unit MWBD. So obviously the Lychguard would be given MWBD so even if VoD 9" away they still make a 8" charge with +1 to charge from MWBD.
If I was you man, I would read the codex before posting stuff online and looking dumb. The OP doesn't need to state anything about MWBD because it's already presumed to be given to them.
Smdh.
You have to be intentionally missing the point.
I commented on another post about needing a 8'' to charge when using veil when that is not true. Its a 9''
If the comment said you need an 8'' when using veil and MWBD that is totally different. But since that was not what was said I wasnt going to make assumptions and would rather than some new player coming along seeing misinformation and then trying to play it incorrectly in a game. (I have seen this specifically happen with deep striking and charging as I am sure most of us have)
I am not even going to go into your "If I was you" comment as its just coming off as ego.
It's sort of a given though. If you bring 10 LG with warscythes then you have to build your list around the question on how to get them into CC. Or you squander those 300 pts.
If you already brought your Warlord with the VoD into the frey to maximize odds to make the charge, then of course you give them MWBD too.
Just write something along the lines of "for anyone wondering why the guy said 8, giving them MWBD is understood on this situation." No need to bash down wide open doors.
When in the OP did anyone say anything about MWBD???? I clearly read what was written and didnt not invent other things that were not say.
The Overlord gives one infantry unit MWBD. So obviously the Lychguard would be given MWBD so even if VoD 9" away they still make a 8" charge with +1 to charge from MWBD.
If I was you man, I would read the codex before posting stuff online and looking dumb. The OP doesn't need to state anything about MWBD because it's already presumed to be given to them.
Smdh.
You have to be intentionally missing the point.
I commented on another post about needing a 8'' to charge when using veil when that is not true. Its a 9''
If the comment said you need an 8'' when using veil and MWBD that is totally different. But since that was not what was said I wasnt going to make assumptions and would rather than some new player coming along seeing misinformation and then trying to play it incorrectly in a game. (I have seen this specifically happen with deep striking and charging as I am sure most of us have)
I am not even going to go into your "If I was you" comment as its just coming off as ego.
It's sort of a given though. If you bring 10 LG with warscythes then you have to build your list around the question on how to get them into CC. Or you squander those 300 pts.
If you already brought your Warlord with the VoD into the frey to maximize odds to make the charge, then of course you give them MWBD too.
Just write something along the lines of "for anyone wondering why the guy said 8, giving them MWBD is understood on this situation." No need to bash down wide open doors.
Nothing is given. If you say you need 8'' on a charge you actually said that. If you say you need 8'' on a charge with MWBD thats different.
Its not cool to just expect everyone to guess whats in someone elses head. At no point in time have I been wrong here I dont know why anyone would try to then say that I am. Its 9'' and always has been 9''. I am simply stating facts and people are then coming around saying yeah but if you added something else you would be wrong.......what is wrong with you people.
ThePauliPrinciple wrote: When picking the fractured personality for your transcendent c'tan, what do people do? Pick a specific one, or roll for two chances?
I roll. Why not? You get two abilities.
I also roll for powers too.
The price drop has made me a happy follower of the great Star Gods!
Darsolan you can’t seriously say “You didn’t say MWBD” when the post you literally quoted says “if you buff them with MWBD.”
Edit: for clarity, you directly replied to a post saying MWBD applies to make it an 8” charge with saying that that was wrong and it was 9”. Those are facts. You’re wrong. You’re not a victim. You’re just repetitively wrong.
ThePauliPrinciple wrote: When picking the fractured personality for your transcendent c'tan, what do people do? Pick a specific one, or roll for two chances?
Pick Cosmic Tyrant for a fire support C'tan, Immune to Natural Law for a brawler or against snipers or Transdimensional Displacement for Cosmic Fire shananigans or roll twice, then pick powers to suit their personality.
You could go through all the 36 personality combinations and value out the average, but in truth, I just think rolling for traits is fun. Rolling is stronger on the surface I'd say but it depends heavily on the rest of your list and your opponent's list because ignoring cover is often useless and if you advance you cannot charge which might be a big problem.
List of probabilities for different combinations.
Spoiler:
1/36 Cosmic Tyrant
2/36 Cosmic Tyrant + Immune to Natural Law
2/36 Cosmic Tyrant + Sentient Necrodermis
2/36 Cosmic Tyrant + Transdimensional Displacement
2/36 Cosmic Tyrant + Entropic Touch
2/36 Cosmic Tyrant + Writhing Worldscape
1/36 Immune to Natural Law
2/36 Immune to Natural Law + Sentient Necrodermis
2/36 Immune to Natural Law + Transdimensional Displacement
2/36 Immune to Natural Law + Entropic Touch
2/36 Immune to Natural Law + Writhing Worldscape
1/36 Sentient Necrodermis
2/36 Sentient Necrodermis + Transdimensional Displacement
2/36 Sentient Necrodermis + Entropic Touch
2/36 Sentient Necrodermis + Writhing Worldscape
1/36 Transdimensional Displacement
2/36 Transdimensional Displacement + Entropic Touch
2/36 Transdimensional Displacement + Writhing Worldscape
1/36 Entropic Touch
2/36 Entropic Touch + Writhing Worldscape
1/36 Writhing Worldscape
The fractured personality rule says that duplicate rolls have no effect. That means you wouldnt get any fractured personality ability, when you roll the same number.
When in the OP did anyone say anything about MWBD???? I clearly read what was written and didnt not invent other things that were not say.
The Overlord gives one infantry unit MWBD. So obviously the Lychguard would be given MWBD so even if VoD 9" away they still make a 8" charge with +1 to charge from MWBD.
If I was you man, I would read the codex before posting stuff online and looking dumb. The OP doesn't need to state anything about MWBD because it's already presumed to be given to them.
Smdh.
You have to be intentionally missing the point.
I commented on another post about needing a 8'' to charge when using veil when that is not true. Its a 9''
If the comment said you need an 8'' when using veil and MWBD that is totally different. But since that was not what was said I wasnt going to make assumptions and would rather than some new player coming along seeing misinformation and then trying to play it incorrectly in a game. (I have seen this specifically happen with deep striking and charging as I am sure most of us have)
I am not even going to go into your "If I was you" comment as its just coming off as ego.
It's sort of a given though. If you bring 10 LG with warscythes then you have to build your list around the question on how to get them into CC. Or you squander those 300 pts.
If you already brought your Warlord with the VoD into the frey to maximize odds to make the charge, then of course you give them MWBD too.
Just write something along the lines of "for anyone wondering why the guy said 8, giving them MWBD is understood on this situation." No need to bash down wide open doors.
Nothing is given. If you say you need 8'' on a charge you actually said that. If you say you need 8'' on a charge with MWBD thats different.
Its not cool to just expect everyone to guess whats in someone elses head. At no point in time have I been wrong here I dont know why anyone would try to then say that I am. Its 9'' and always has been 9''. I am simply stating facts and people are then coming around saying yeah but if you added something else you would be wrong.......what is wrong with you people.
Not getting any personality would be pretty bad yeah.
Never realised it could mean that too (was thinking you'd just get one effect), also no idea what was intended here, both make sense.
At what point do you roll for it? For psykers it says before either player deploys (in the main rulebook). Do I play it like that? I can't find any other mention of before the battle.
Actually it says before the battle, not game. In the rulebook on page 242 under "Command Points" it says "You can spend Command points to use a Strategem before or during the batlle." So it looks like you can use the reroll
Seems pretty straight forward to me. Other important things also happens after the game has started but before the battle begins, such as the Deceiver's redeploy ability.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
torblind wrote: Seems pretty straight forward to me. Other important things also happens after the game has started but before the battle begins, such as the Deceiver's redeploy ability.
Ah you meant the same result on both dice, situation. Looks like another rule fart GW missed. I'd always play it like you get one effect instead of two - if the goal was to punish you by giving you no effects, they'd likely make a bigger number out of it.
First you come into the thread spewing a bunch of crap about Flayed Ones, and now you choose to do the same for Deathmarks. Can you just leave please so we can actually discuss Necrons?
Lol. I was right then and moreso now. You're constant antagonism isn't going to change that.
I qualified my statement about Deathmarks. So go fly a kite.
You consistently used the wrong stats, wrong math, .
...But I didn't.
You gave Flayed Ones 4 attacks instead of 3.
Already explained why at great length as well. At this point you're being intentionally obtuse... or you just actually are.
Pyrothem wrote: Thank you for the post very well thought out. I apologise for the C'tan powers that was my reading error.
I see in the BA battle you are rocking a Catacomb Comand barge any reason? Also are those Wrathes naked or have some whip coils since the price drop?
No worries. The choosing of powers is the reason why I think it should always be either 1 or 4 with no inbetweens. The flexibility is what you want with these, I've play tested up to the maximum of 5 def saw diminishing returns.
I play test everything I own at least once to see if it has any potential. Since the CA changes I wanted to give everything a fair shake, theory crafting is great and all but ultimately you want to also put it to practice and see the in-game value aswell. The annihilation barge did not do much for me as expected but it is pretty cheap though I think heavy destroyers would've been a better option to compliment the 2 transcendent c'tans in the spearhead.
The command barge had the solar staff (the entire army was Nephrek) so i can shutdown some overwatch before charging with the C'tans. Also I have owned this thing since 5th edition and make any excuse to include it when it isn't a huge detriment to the list. Thematically the goal of the list was to run Wraiths + C'tan to do exactly what I did to those Blood Angels. Pin something down and mortal wound it to death. I was aware though that this list would struggle hard vs flyers, I had another unrecorded game where I got completely wrecked by a 6 flyer list from Astra Militarum Scions. Thus I concluded C'tan need support to function they didn't do horrible vs the flyers the rest of the list just wasn't ready to support that at all. For that game I was testing the Zandrekh +Obyron combo with Lychguard now that it's much cheaper to execute...instant fail when I saw the wall of flyers my opponent was running.
Have you tried deciever + nightbringer + 3x Transcendant Ctans, with 6 wraiths. Whats the wraith loadout?
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 297pts]
. Tomb Blade [33pts]: Nebuloscope [2pts], Shieldvanes [3pts]
. . Two Tesla Carbines [14pts]: 2x Tesla Carbine [14pts]
. Tomb Blade [33pts]: Nebuloscope [2pts], Shieldvanes [3pts]
. . Two Tesla Carbines [14pts]: 2x Tesla Carbine [14pts]
. Tomb Blade [33pts]: Nebuloscope [2pts], Shieldvanes [3pts]
. . Two Tesla Carbines [14pts]: 2x Tesla Carbine [14pts]
. Tomb Blade [33pts]: Nebuloscope [2pts], Shieldvanes [3pts]
. . Two Tesla Carbines [14pts]: 2x Tesla Carbine [14pts]
. Tomb Blade [33pts]: Nebuloscope [2pts], Shieldvanes [3pts]
. . Two Tesla Carbines [14pts]: 2x Tesla Carbine [14pts]
. Tomb Blade [33pts]: Nebuloscope [2pts], Shieldvanes [3pts]
. . Two Tesla Carbines [14pts]: 2x Tesla Carbine [14pts]
. Tomb Blade [33pts]: Nebuloscope [2pts], Shieldvanes [3pts]
. . Two Tesla Carbines [14pts]: 2x Tesla Carbine [14pts]
. Tomb Blade [33pts]: Nebuloscope [2pts], Shieldvanes [3pts]
. . Two Tesla Carbines [14pts]: 2x Tesla Carbine [14pts]
. Tomb Blade [33pts]: Nebuloscope [2pts], Shieldvanes [3pts]
. . Two Tesla Carbines [14pts]: 2x Tesla Carbine [14pts]
++ Total: [127 PL, 10CP, 1,997pts] ++
Am i correct in that the Nihliakh basically allows any unit to ignore screens? Even stuff that doesn't fly. SO you could have immortals or any unit (not Ctans) basically walk through enemy screens if needed. I havnt done the Nebulscope but think its good for ignores cover, not sure if its worth giving up the 5++ though. Basically targeted towards stealthy marines and stuff with cover.
You have got a lot of very fast moving units with the ctans moving upto 14", scarabs and tomb blades are super fast as well. Even the immortals are quick. Lots of mortal wounds as well.
Been thinking 2 overlord, cryptek, 3x10 tesla immortal, max 5 c'tans and 3 dda myself. 3 at vehicles, 30 tesla for horde clearing and 5 c'tans firing up tons of mw's.
tneva82 wrote: Been thinking 2 overlord, cryptek, 3x10 tesla immortal, max 5 c'tans and 3 dda myself. 3 at vehicles, 30 tesla for horde clearing and 5 c'tans firing up tons of mw's.
Just need to get deceiver and 2 tc'tans.
This is a good option as well. What dynasty, wlt, relics?
Have you guys noticed that this thread has twice as many views (1.3m) as the next highest (IG with 600k) and 3-4 times as many as the next highest? Any ideas as to why?
sieGermans wrote: Have you guys noticed that this thread has twice as many views (1.3m) as the next highest (IG with 600k) and 3-4 times as many as the next highest? Any ideas as to why?
Because Necrons are pretty popular and were trash for much of the edition and the people attending the thread love tangents and discussing things unrelated to the thread, especially how to fix the codex.
I posted some thread-activity statistics a while ago, essentially we blow most codexes out of the water in terms of post frequency in our tactica thread.
Having played mostly same list for a while now, thought that I would spruce things up by going a bit more melee. Necron melee is not that great afaik, but any critique/comment on the list?
The meta is not super competitive nor is it casual. The basis is on the wraithwing with CP battery battalion.
torblind wrote: You could go another dynasty on the battalion, unless that breaks unwritten rules in your group
Not really. I only went Novokh to get the Cryptek to same dynasty as the wraiths (get the +1 RP with him when using the Wraith RP strat). Haven't tried it myself. Seen it once before.
torblind wrote: You could go another dynasty on the battalion, unless that breaks unwritten rules in your group
Not really. I only went Novokh to get the Cryptek to same dynasty as the wraiths (get the +1 RP with him when using the Wraith RP strat). Haven't tried it myself. Seen it once before.
It's not a bad idea. The look on your opponents face when he spends his entire army's worth of shoting to kill 5 out of 6 wraiths, only to have 2-3 of them come back in his face, ..is always nice to see. I have never played 18 wraiths, nor seen it played (I think).
torblind wrote: You could go another dynasty on the battalion, unless that breaks unwritten rules in your group
Not really. I only went Novokh to get the Cryptek to same dynasty as the wraiths (get the +1 RP with him when using the Wraith RP strat). Haven't tried it myself. Seen it once before.
It's not a bad idea. The look on your opponents face when he spends his entire army's worth of shoting to kill 5 out of 6 wraiths, only to have 2-3 of them come back in his face, ..is always nice to see. I have never played 18 wraiths, nor seen it played (I think).
7th edition, as you probably remember, had 18 Wraith lists. I think 6th had the Cron Air with mass Wraiths too, didn’t it?
pesusieni999 wrote: Having played mostly same list for a while now, thought that I would spruce things up by going a bit more melee. Necron melee is not that great afaik, but any critique/comment on the list?
The meta is not super competitive nor is it casual. The basis is on the wraithwing with CP battery battalion.
Replace Cryptek and a Wraith with Lord and Destroyer and make the Battalion Nephrekh. Alternatively, replace Cryptek, Overlord, Destroyers and some Wraiths with two DDAs, a Lord and Imotekh and make Imotekh your WL. I don't think the Novokh Cryptek on the Wraiths is worth much and a Cryptek is worthless as far as 5-man Immortal squads are concerned.
torblind wrote: You could go another dynasty on the battalion, unless that breaks unwritten rules in your group
Not really. I only went Novokh to get the Cryptek to same dynasty as the wraiths (get the +1 RP with him when using the Wraith RP strat). Haven't tried it myself. Seen it once before.
It's not a bad idea. The look on your opponents face when he spends his entire army's worth of shoting to kill 5 out of 6 wraiths, only to have 2-3 of them come back in his face, ..is always nice to see. I have never played 18 wraiths, nor seen it played (I think).
7th edition, as you probably remember, had 18 Wraith lists. I think 6th had the Cron Air with mass Wraiths too, didn’t it?
It was the most powerful Necron Index list more or less. You had the obligatory Pylon and then a few options as far as support but 18 Wraiths were about as good as you could make a Necron list back then. I've been running 18-Wraith lists all edition and a little in 7th (it was stupidly cheesy in the right Detachment with 4+++). I didn't spam them in 6th, they were strong in part as a squad supported by a Destroyer Lord giving them Prefferred Enemy, so without 3 D-Lords they weren't really any better than any other 6th edition list and I can't remember if Wraiths were truly on-par with Flyer spam. I'm not sure how good they are now, probably not worth bringing against Marines because of half movement Stratagem on two units Stratagems, even without that you'll get blown up by many lists through overwhelming firepower so you'd better be playing on nova terrain if you want to make them work. Not having Fly hurts against flyer lists but with them getting nerfed you could probably make them work at a high level. Melee is vastly more difficult to play than ranged lists, it doesn't take a lot of mistakes to lose a game and whether you're bad at the game or your brain is fritzed after 2 previous games it's just easier to do well with a list that is easier to pilot IMO.
So the community page today has a blurb from the next months white dwarf and it mentions the return of the silent king to 40k and it dawned on me then how similar his actual name, Szarekh, is to Illuminor Szeras and I am starting to think that large model that comes on an oval base with stalker legs will be him. Sort of like the Necron version of a primarch.
If so, that would be great. We could use a large LoW/HQ model that degfined a new playstyle, especially built around praetorians and stalkers. Let's hope for some more definite info soon.
Red Corsair wrote: So the community page today has a blurb from the next months white dwarf and it mentions the return of the silent king to 40k and it dawned on me then how similar his actual name, Szarekh, is to Illuminor Szeras and I am starting to think that large model that comes on an oval base with stalker legs will be him. Sort of like the Necron version of a primarch.
I agree, this sounds much more probable than too remake a single out of many apparently equally qualified finecast models in their range.
Red Corsair wrote: So the community page today has a blurb from the next months white dwarf and it mentions the return of the silent king to 40k and it dawned on me then how similar his actual name, Szarekh, is to Illuminor Szeras and I am starting to think that large model that comes on an oval base with stalker legs will be him. Sort of like the Necron version of a primarch.
Just like the WarhammerTV debacle. Even the blurb is the same thing that has been in the Codex for as long as I can remember.
It is so odd that they do not realize that the Silent King has been back in the galaxy since just before the Siege of Terra back in 30k. After all, he tried to negotiate with Sanguinius to get ready for the Tyranids before they got to the galaxy. But then Horus goes and destroys Sanguinius and the deal falls through. At least that is what was said to Dante when he met the Silent King.
Bearing in mind though, the galaxy at large still mostly ignores the Necrons as isolated events, other than the "bigger things" like the World Engine or Grimmauldus' grudge
p5freak wrote: I cant wait to get another slow, overpriced character which cant go anywhere because he has no dynasty.
And of course he'll be decent at melee, but it won't matter since you can't whack stuff you're not next to, and he'll pay for that alone, not just buffing!
I really really really want to escape the current mandatory 6 Dooms - three doom scythes and three doomsday arks. With the new point costs in CA2020, one hunting pack of Orikan (5++ for everybody) with 18 Destroyers, and a second hunting pack of 18 Canoptek Wraiths is almost exactly 1750 total. How can this be made viable?
If your taking that many wraiths I would pair them with Ctans and run the Novokh dynasty (6" advance one i believe, dont have the dex in front of me). Trans Ctan are capable in melee and can helpwith with mortal wounds and still cast powers in melee. The wraiths could end up tying up the targets the destroyers want to shoot.
Dynas wrote: If your taking that many wraiths I would pair them with Ctans and run the Novokh dynasty (6" advance one i believe, dont have the dex in front of me). Trans Ctan are capable in melee and can helpwith with mortal wounds and still cast powers in melee. The wraiths could end up tying up the targets the destroyers want to shoot.
6" advance is nephrekh. Novokh is reroll to hits in close combat. Which isn't that bad for 18 wraiths either.
Dynas wrote: If your taking that many wraiths I would pair them with Ctans and run the Novokh dynasty (6" advance one i believe, dont have the dex in front of me). Trans Ctan are capable in melee and can helpwith with mortal wounds and still cast powers in melee. The wraiths could end up tying up the targets the destroyers want to shoot.
I'm all ears. How do you pair C'tan powers with Wraiths in your battles?
Mostly, I have gone with Crypteks for their %++ vs shooting but Orikan is so cheap and gives it to all phases.
Dynas wrote: If your taking that many wraiths I would pair them with Ctans and run the Novokh dynasty (6" advance one i believe, dont have the dex in front of me). Trans Ctan are capable in melee and can helpwith with mortal wounds and still cast powers in melee. The wraiths could end up tying up the targets the destroyers want to shoot.
I'm all ears. How do you pair C'tan powers with Wraiths in your battles?
Mostly, I have gone with Crypteks for their %++ vs shooting but Orikan is so cheap and gives it to all phases.
I think he is just point at threat overload.
Recently ran 5 c'tan and 10 lychguard + crytek with veil against fists. Worked out very well. The C'tan feel like they are not going to do a ton but when there are 5 of them they really end up making dents.
Jep if you reach the point that you can start double or triple some powers of ctan they do a lot of dmg together. And if you use wraith to save then cause of Charakter rule they can act pretty nice
Not discontinued. Moved to direct order. Aka they aren't usual shelf items for flgs so they need to order separately and have smaller discount to store so often no discount to customers either.
You can get them same way you get doomsday arks, nightbringer etc
Kahi the Uncertain wrote: Lychguard and Praetorians come in the same box though. Possible new sprue allocation? Or even sculpt?
Or just an error in the article
You can't expect more than one Necron release from GW in many years. They are busy with new SM stuff. The only spot for Necrons is already reserved by szarekh.
Kahi the Uncertain wrote: Lychguard and Praetorians come in the same box though. Possible new sprue allocation? Or even sculpt?
Or just an error in the article
You can't expect more than one Necron release from GW in many years. They are busy with new SM stuff. The only spot for Necrons is already reserved by szarekh.
Every PA book had the release of a character. The white dwarf article says that the silent king returns. And there was a rumour on YouTube about a new Necron spider model. And szarekh is close to szeras. You don't have to be a genius to figure it out.
There are enough pieces and rumors to figure that there is a good chance he'll show up, but it could also be bad rumors and reading too much into a fluff article. Nothing to do but sit and wait...which we will likely be doing for awhile as it looks like we won't be getting anything till PA6 at the earliest, and if it is the 6th book, I wouldn't hold my breath for much of anything good as we will be a side show to orcs and wolves.
Szarehk isn't coming back, getting a model/rules. The rumor for Necron's PA release is Illuminor Szeras moving to an 80mm base. Sadly that White Dwarf article is going to end up being another WarhammerTV spot which is a straight copy paste of the codex.
IanVanCheese wrote: Given Szeras' whole deal is trying to turn himself into a god, I can see him upgrading himself into a giant spider body.
I'd prefer Szarehk, but realistically GW is going to convert most of our finecast character to plastic before they give us a new toy.
Why is this realistic?
I mean, are they known for doing that?
Because we know they're trying to get rid of finecast. I think the word around town was that they wanted to have it all gone by 2021, which seems ambitious. They're slowly replacing (or obsoleting) finecast kits though, no doubt about that.
Red Corsair wrote: Odds are much higher most of the resin characters get squatted before they ever get plastic kits.
Your talking about 9 resin characters lol.
Makes way more sense for profits to make a large new character nobody has ever heard of/seen that slots into literally any dynasty.
They're not squatting Imotekh, the C'tan shards or Trayzyn at the very least, so I'd expect plastic kits for all of them in the next year or two. Some of the others might get shuffled off the edge of the map, but they can't axe our entire character lineup.
We also need Flayed Ones in plastic. Honestly, I think the fact we've seen bugger all necron news for a while is a good sign that we're soonish in the codex cycle, which means a proper refresh and not just a special character with PA (though I imagine we'll get that too since GW doesn't like throwing multiple special characters out at once).
I'd love Silent King, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
IanVanCheese wrote: They're not squatting Imotekh, the C'tan shards or Trayzyn at the very least, so I'd expect plastic kits for all of them in the next year or two. Some of the others might get shuffled off the edge of the map, but they can't axe our entire character lineup.
I think 40k post finecast production will have far less special characters per faction. Maybe AoS is not an accurate indicator, but it has a lot less named characters, but they tend to be bigger flashier minis. The new special characters for Sisters of Battle seems to follow the pattern. We will have special characters 'on foot' (like during this PA series) but i feel we will have less per faction and many of the second zone ones will not be redone for a long time (and another campaign books).
Red Corsair wrote: Odds are much higher most of the resin characters get squatted before they ever get plastic kits.
Your talking about 9 resin characters lol.
Makes way more sense for profits to make a large new character nobody has ever heard of/seen that slots into literally any dynasty.
They're not squatting Imotekh, the C'tan shards or Trayzyn at the very least, so I'd expect plastic kits for all of them in the next year or two. Some of the others might get shuffled off the edge of the map, but they can't axe our entire character lineup.
We also need Flayed Ones in plastic. Honestly, I think the fact we've seen bugger all necron news for a while is a good sign that we're soonish in the codex cycle, which means a proper refresh and not just a special character with PA (though I imagine we'll get that too since GW doesn't like throwing multiple special characters out at once).
I'd love Silent King, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
I don’t think lack of news is indicative of upcoming goodies. I suspect it’s just lack of news.
However, I would say, that lack of news tends to diminish hype/interest for a faction which reduces sales projections.
If we are getting the Silent King, then I guess that's our Primarch.
Still would have preferred a canoptek HQ, or something related to the Severed though.
The way I see it Szeras is potentially a Cawl type character - scientist/inventor type which new kits can be tied to in the fluff.
I do wish we could get a rewrite of the Dynastic Agents section of the codex so that our characters aren't so bereft of synergy. If you don't have a dynasty keyword you should be able to declare the unit is an agent of <DYNASTY> before the battle and all relevant abilities can be applied, from the lords will to ghost arks to tomb world deployment.
It just makes practical sense. I don't think the restrictions were intentionally strict, they just weren't given full consideration because the writers were just thinking about how to make dynasty choice synergise with your basic units.
sieGermans wrote: Good thoughts. I’d warn against having this thread get too far involved in wishlisting/etc.
Have there been any major tournaments this first month so far with any updated lists/tactics for us?
What’s our anti-IH and anti-RG tech looking like?
In theory, we're really well kitted out to fight marines. I'm also super interested too see if Heavy Destroyers have snuck their way into any tournament lists, because I'm convinced they're fantastic value now. I've played both armies once, narrowly lost to IH due to the mission, but beat the raven guard centurion spam.
sieGermans wrote: Good thoughts. I’d warn against having this thread get too far involved in wishlisting/etc.
Have there been any major tournaments this first month so far with any updated lists/tactics for us?
What’s our anti-IH and anti-RG tech looking like?
In theory, we're really well kitted out to fight marines. I'm also super interested too see if Heavy Destroyers have snuck their way into any tournament lists, because I'm convinced they're fantastic value now. I've played both armies once, narrowly lost to IH due to the mission, but beat the raven guard centurion spam.
I’m sure there’s a lot of moving parts that worked to help nearly win and secured victory, but from the list building perspective, any auto-includes specific to these match ups you’d mention?
sieGermans wrote: Good thoughts. I’d warn against having this thread get too far involved in wishlisting/etc.
Have there been any major tournaments this first month so far with any updated lists/tactics for us?
What’s our anti-IH and anti-RG tech looking like?
In theory, we're really well kitted out to fight marines. I'm also super interested too see if Heavy Destroyers have snuck their way into any tournament lists, because I'm convinced they're fantastic value now. I've played both armies once, narrowly lost to IH due to the mission, but beat the raven guard centurion spam.
I’m sure there’s a lot of moving parts that worked to help nearly win and secured victory, but from the list building perspective, any auto-includes specific to these match ups you’d mention?
I've been running the pretty standard Necron list. Imotekh, lord, cryptek, 30 tesla immortals, 3 DDA, 6 destroyers, 1 Heavy Gauss Triarch Stalker and 5 scarabs to round it out.
The Stalker is the only slightly odd choice, but it has been doing wonders for me. It draws firepower, has a huge footprint for blocking deepstrike and charges and reroll 1s versus single big targets is tasty. This is a 1750 pts list though, I'm looking to crank it up to 2K and heavy destroyers and/or the Nightbringer seem like the best options.
I found both marine lists struggled with my DDAs. Their big guns suck versus quantum shielding, and I can out range their small guns. Destroyers will mulch just about anything they shoot at, so you can deal with their top threats with them. Honestly, the Immortals are just OK, but they cover weaknesses versus a lot of other armies. Imotekh is my personal "F you" to Thunderfire cannons too. Need more games to give proper account of how we do versus marines, but so far so good for me.
not to just pop in, but I hope Szarekh stays out of being made a model, at least for now. unlike the primarchs, he's been and seen a lot more as i understand it, and id prefer him kind of as a shadow, moving things behind the scenes, and possibly bringing the necrons to new heights on his own, maybe brigning in new tech other necrons use and make those the models. I know he's been written before, but.. i feel like there needs to be a kind of care put into that, so him being up and in a model seems... kinda wrong to me.
on the more tactical topic, while i don't have much to go on, the "standard" necron lists do seem to do alright vs marines, in part due to forcing wounds in differing ways including mortals. Im really hoping to see what CA did for necrons bearing fruit soon in any result i can find, especially in heavy destroyers or flayed ones.
Interested in the wraiths + ctan lists, what are people running in them? I am having trouble fitting everything I want under 2k points.
imotekh, orikan, 25 immortals = 615
5 ctan = 875
9 scarab, 9 wraith = 495
total: 1985
If i can squeeze in 2 more HQ choices, I can have outrider and spearhead detachments. Also wouldnt mind some more big guns like DDA or destroyers, maybe cut the 5th ctan.
asobitaii wrote: Interested in the wraiths + ctan lists, what are people running in them? I am having trouble fitting everything I want under 2k points.
imotekh, orikan, 25 immortals = 615
5 ctan = 875
9 scarab, 9 wraith = 495
total: 1985
If i can squeeze in 2 more HQ choices, I can have outrider and spearhead detachments. Also wouldnt mind some more big guns like DDA or destroyers, maybe cut the 5th ctan.
What would you guys do to finish off the list?
I’m about to start testing a 4 c’tan, 3 DDA, 6 Wraith battalion list adapted from a previous poster’s batrep list.
I’m curious if min-squad Immortals is the right meta choice given a marine prevalence. I find the lack of AP on Tesla quite poor, and Gauss tooVoF anemic.
When you are running a 90% win rate, and opponents are getting frustrated, dumbing down the list is an admirable move to keep games fun for everyone.
I forgot footslogging C’tans don’t have Dynasty keywords.
