Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the Mutilator rules? I appreciate it might be difficult given we don’t know points.
Looking good, dependant on points.
Their old weakness of being slow as hell is completely removed by deep strike/rapid ingress. They dish out plenty of mortal wounds, and their weapons are skewed to attacking big things rather than hordes which is nice. Being leadable by Kravek is cool but I'm not sure if he would be better off in Obliterators.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the Mutilator rules? I appreciate it might be difficult given we don’t know points.
They should have more attacks, methinks.
I think they have exactly the right amount, and giving them more is an example of what's wrong with modern 40k. I hope we see more units in this kind of range in 11th, rather than 3 guys dishing out almost 30 attacks between them. They've got a pretty small Rapid Ingress footprint and the re-roll charges with a 5" move should get them the charge into a target a decent amount of the time from RI.
Well said, lets promite dialing back lethality rather than promoting it. They seem a bit pillowfisted compared to some units but that's not inherently bad.
Dudeface wrote: Well said, lets promite dialing back lethality rather than promoting it. They seem a bit pillowfisted compared to some units but that's not inherently bad.
Once they lose a model maybe. As it is a unit of 3 would seem to fairly reliably blend a 10 man GEQ squad, a 5 man Marine squad, do a number on Terminators and melt lighter vehicles.
If you could just point them at 350-400 point units and deathstars, wouldn't they need to be crazy expensive?
At 9/6/3 attacks they'd blend basically anything.
Dudeface wrote: Well said, lets promite dialing back lethality rather than promoting it. They seem a bit pillowfisted compared to some units but that's not inherently bad.
Once they lose a model maybe. As it is a unit of 3 would seem to fairly reliably blend a 10 man GEQ squad, a 5 man Marine squad, do a number on Terminators and melt lighter vehicles.
If you could just point them at 350-400 point units and deathstars, wouldn't they need to be crazy expensive?
At 9/6/3 attacks they'd blend basically anything.
Assuming they're 180 for 3 as a reasonable guess in todays economy, I'm not sure wiping a 70pt unit then being sat with their ass in the wind is considered a fair return. Although that should be normal in reality.
A maulerfiend is more reliable delivery, tougher than 2 mutitlators and drops 6 debatably similar anti vehicle hits + extra attacks for 130. So the current attack pool is a bit low in comparison across the range given their limitations.
Skitarii lads seem quite fun. And I was initially thick, as I wondered why you wouldn’t go for the big guns. Then I read further and looked at the models, and realised the diddy guns are just that. Shoulder mounted side arms.
4+ to hit isn’t fabulous, but if you can stack a +1 on it? They might hit surprisingly hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Knights shotgun is potentially hilarious on Critical Hits. If I’m reading it right. But D6+3 Blast, and any 6’s to hit generate a further D6+3? Or does Rapid Fire only trigger the once? Or, as let’s face it highly likely, have I got entirely the wrong end of the stick. Like the half Labrador I am.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Rules for the new Tinboys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Knights shotgun is potentially hilarious on Critical Hits. If I’m reading it right. But D6+3 Blast, and any 6’s to hit generate a further D6+3? Or does Rapid Fire only trigger the once? Or, as let’s face it highly likely, have I got entirely the wrong end of the stick. Like the half Labrador I am.
Rapid Fire is the “get +X shots at half range” trait. So against a 10-man squad 12" away you get 2d6+8 shots.
Dudeface wrote: Assuming they're 180 for 3 as a reasonable guess in todays economy, I'm not sure wiping a 70pt unit then being sat with their ass in the wind is considered a fair return. Although that should be normal in reality.
A maulerfiend is more reliable delivery, tougher than 2 mutitlators and drops 6 debatably similar anti vehicle hits + extra attacks for 130. So the current attack pool is a bit low in comparison across the range given their limitations.
Maybe a contrived example but lets have both units hit a maulerfiend. I think if both take sustained hits, the Mauler expects to do 10.8333~ wounds. The Mutilators expect to do 12.222~ wounds - and 3 mortal wounds on the charge. So nearly 50% more.
If the Mutilators got 3 attacks, they would be expecting to do 18.333~ damage and 3 mortal wounds, that's more or less double the Maulerfiend. What points would that make them? 220-240? Feel like you just point at any "big unit" in the opponents army and get your money back.
I guess you can argue it - but I'd say its easier to screen a monster running across the table than it is 3 deepstriking infantry models with natural rerolls to charge - even on relatively large bases. The odds are also against the Maulerfiend killing 10 GEQ on the charge.
You might take both to apply pressure at different points.
Dudeface wrote: Assuming they're 180 for 3 as a reasonable guess in todays economy, I'm not sure wiping a 70pt unit then being sat with their ass in the wind is considered a fair return. Although that should be normal in reality.
A maulerfiend is more reliable delivery, tougher than 2 mutitlators and drops 6 debatably similar anti vehicle hits + extra attacks for 130. So the current attack pool is a bit low in comparison across the range given their limitations.
Maybe a contrived example but lets have both units hit a maulerfiend. I think if both take sustained hits, the Mauler expects to do 10.8333~ wounds. The Mutilators expect to do 12.222~ wounds - and 3 mortal wounds on the charge. So nearly 50% more.
If the Mutilators got 3 attacks, they would be expecting to do 18.333~ damage and 3 mortal wounds, that's more or less double the Maulerfiend. What points would that make them? 220-240? Feel like you just point at any "big unit" in the opponents army and get your money back.
I guess you can argue it - but I'd say its easier to screen a monster running across the table than it is 3 deepstriking infantry models with natural rerolls to charge - even on relatively large bases. The odds are also against the Maulerfiend killing 10 GEQ on the charge.
You might take both to apply pressure at different points.
Well given a maulerfiend is 2/3 potentially of the cost that makes sense, it just isn't sat with its ass out in the breeze after doing it and depending on cp for ingress to be useful. Honestly if you want to kill guardsmen you jave plenty more mobile melee options in the book. Killing marines in melee? Possessed or terminators. Terminators fill a similar role but with added guns on top.
Unless dirt cheap I can't see mutilators doing much the army doesn't already do better and cheaper. Their main bonus point is they're flexible, which to me says you're taking them without an intended purpose.
Dudeface wrote: Well said, lets promite dialing back lethality rather than promoting it. They seem a bit pillowfisted compared to some units but that's not inherently bad.
Once they lose a model maybe. As it is a unit of 3 would seem to fairly reliably blend a 10 man GEQ squad, a 5 man Marine squad, do a number on Terminators and melt lighter vehicles.
If you could just point them at 350-400 point units and deathstars, wouldn't they need to be crazy expensive?
At 9/6/3 attacks they'd blend basically anything.
Assuming they're 180 for 3 as a reasonable guess in todays economy, I'm not sure wiping a 70pt unit then being sat with their ass in the wind is considered a fair return. Although that should be normal in reality.
A maulerfiend is more reliable delivery, tougher than 2 mutitlators and drops 6 debatably similar anti vehicle hits + extra attacks for 130. So the current attack pool is a bit low in comparison across the range given their limitations.
I would by no means presume what their price will be in advance.
Everyone thought Twin Lance would drop at a sensible points cost in the range of 220 to 280 points. Instead they dropped at a comical 160.
Points are the usual decider. I mean sure at 200 they are getting expensive and probably not that good. But I think they could be priced to move at 150-160.
I mean they aren't trivial to kill. T7 5W 2+/5++. That's not a great target with either 2 damage or 3 damage guns. Low S D1 will do almost nothing. If 60 points a model maybe its worth popping them with lascannons - but then you have the vagaries of D6 damage. If they eat two lascannon shots that's getting expensive.
5W is legitimately a great breakpoint for unit survivability. It's just an awkward number to deal with efficiently. I'd like to see GW use higher W values in place of ever-increasing T, Sv and Invulnerables in the future.
Mutilators feel like a 180-ish point unit but I could see them going a bit lower. CSM have a lot of good melee options, though these fill a bit of a niche, which is good. You'll likely only get one good activation out of them though. Even if they don't die to return fire/melee, the M5 will make them easier to handle once they've arrived.
Seems to my inexpert mind they’re possibly a great unit for smaller points levels.
As noted by the more informed, their Deep Strike/Rapid Ingress should help them get into at least one punch up, depending on how strung out your opponent’s force is. And their stats make them kind of tricky to deal with efficiently.
And, where it’s smaller armies? Their choice of Hitting Sticks means whatever it is they end up getting stuck into is going to take a decent kicking. Perhaps not squished in a single round, but hard enough to leave whatever they just jumped with a nasty limp. It also offers some level of insurance from your opponent piling on with another unit. Hypothetical? The Mutilators arrive and get stuck into say, an Intercessor Squad. There I’d imagine you’d want Rending Strikes, where every unsaved wound is an outright kill. If the opponent then piles in with say, a Dreadnought or Character? The Thunderous Blows could make them regret that intervention pretty swiftly. And so they’re a tricky opponent once stuck in, as they can, aha, turn their hand to pretty much anything.
Billicus wrote: Looks really silly so is probably real. In a world with fully enclosed dreadnoughts why do GW keep trying to push exposed pilots?
Same reason why helmets are optional; someone thought it looked cool if you can see the pilot.
Just look at Necrons; you'd think that they would use impersonal, geometric designs that are completely automated, but no, they have exposed pilots for some reason that in a video game would be glowing with a bright "shoot me here" light.
It's... fine? It's aggressively unexciting and fills the same visual "raised seat/pulpit" space as Junith Eruita, which I suppose is consistent for the faction? But it also feels rather unnecessary.
GW certainly isn't disproving the comments about the last couple years of releases being nostalgia-bait.
I fall into the "It's OK" camp - I probably won't buy one just for the sake of building and painting it, but if it's useful for my Sisters army and fills a niche that I don't have covered already, I wouldn't mind adding it in.
Role duplication is real, and yeah... This does duplicate roles filled by other models. An Aircraft or a Superheavy would have been a better choice, because right now Sisters have nothing filling those roles.
But my attitude is "For any model range that is smaller than Marines (which is all of them), EVERY model is necessary... Even if it duplicates a role.
chaos0xomega wrote: I cant believe people still fall for this crap. Its marketing/manufactured demand. They get people worked up about something (ie how dare they take our Steel Legion away), suddenly a bunch of people who had no opinion over it become passionate on the topic, then a couple years later surprise heres the thing you all want.
Now instead of selling steel legion minis to all 5 people that care enough to buy them on release day, theres thousands frothing at the mouth for them because it was taken from them before and they are going to make sure they dont miss out on them this time lest they be taken away again.
Oh look, I was right (except it was weeks for the preview and not years, tho the minis are 2 years out).
Struggling to find a niche for the new vehicles, they're great looking, but the Centaur seems to compete with the Taurox (faster, less armored) and the Chimera (more armored, more guns, slower), while the Hypo seems to be a wheeled Sentinel.
I’ve figured out the problem with the newer Ork kits. It’s the teeth. Compare to the classic Brian Nelson kits - those Orks had fangs. The latest ones have weedy teeth that would make a grot blush.
I hope the rest of the launch box Orks are better then the teased one. Also, what is the pose he’s doing - what’s he doing with his slugga?
I’ve figured out the problem with the newer Ork kits. It’s the teeth. Compare to the classic Brian Nelson kits - those Orks had fangs. The latest ones have weedy teeth that would make a grot blush.
I hope the rest of the launch box Orks are better then the teased one. Also, what is the pose he’s doing - what’s he doing with his slugga?
It's funny you mention the teeth, because while the model has small ones, look at the one in the artwork next to the model. Now doze are sum proppa big teef!
As for the pose, he's firing the slugga in the air to intimidate you, silly 'umie git!
Amen to that. Now I wonder how many people it can really hold, 10 would be the safe assumption but the 3 models it comes with barely fit. Could they make a 5 man transport?
Amen to that. Now I wonder how many people it can really hold, 10 would be the safe assumption but the 3 models it comes with barely fit. Could they make a 5 man transport?
Nah, its gonna carry 10 guys. If we go with what it could carry based on how many figures you could jam there then lot of transports could carry only just 3 or 6. XD
Has this been posted here yet? Steel Legion concept art, but not due for 2 more years. Weird. I mean we just had a whole thing about how DKK can pass for SL, especially if you assume most of their cities and factories are in ruins and they're getting gear from off world. But here we are.
See that Commissar Party Wagon? I’ve got erm….7 words for you…
If it doesn’t hurt, it doesn’t count.
You know what I mean, and what I’m thinking….
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also? See that lad, bottom left?
That is the Orkiest Ork Artwork in a long time. Proper 2nd Ed vibes, though and I’m not being ironic because ironic is ever so boring, it might be partially to do with the amount of red on show.
Ooh, just noticed that blue helmeted heavy intercessor on bottom right (BA marks their combat role by helmet colour) so maybe we are getting those Primaris "Devastators" finally.
Commissar Car is also just begging to become a Cult Limo for GSC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Askherly, my hint about its potential use in Necromunda may be too deep a cut, given how long ago and relatively obscure the Redeemer is.
So…. Pulpitek - The Pulpitek is a specially-made, armoured half-track vehicle that travels the Ash Wastes and the corrupt byways of the underhive. The Pulpitek is also heavily armed with an array of Autocannons. From the command pulpit of his vehicle, the Redeemer can preach his fiery oratory while commanding his loyal flock in the midst of battle.
Im sort of disappointed by this. Caving in to internet yelling isn't a great thing generally and theyre2025 early art sketches. So not only will the guard now have 4 legally distinct infantry, heavy weapons, command squads and +1 unique per regiment bloating it's ass out, it's also gobbling up a lot of releases and production effort for the next 2-3 years.
Those new vehicles look like third party stand-ins, not GW products. Like they can't figure out what basic principles make the Russ and Chimera what they are.
And why are we getting a new transport, when the Chimera kit is, what? Three decades old?
I do like the Marine armour tweaks, even if it's just the helmet returning, and the Ork is nice. Wazdakka will be nice once he's removed from the scenic base.
Sotahullu wrote: Ooh, just noticed that blue helmeted heavy intercessor on bottom right (BA marks their combat role by helmet colour) so maybe we are getting those Primaris "Devastators" finally.
Or, the 2nd edition artwork had a Devastator in the bottom right, so gotta pump that nostalgia...
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I literally cannot tell if this is sarcasm or not
The Chimera hull is, in fact, three decades old. And instead of updating one of the most recognisable vehicles in the setting, GW releases a generic half truck, apparently so that IG can operate more like the Orks they're fighting.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I literally cannot tell if this is sarcasm or not
The Chimera hull is, in fact, three decades old. And instead of updating one of the most recognisable vehicles in the setting, GW releases a generic half truck, apparently so that IG can operate more like the Orks they're fighting.
How's that for sarcasm?
Gottcha. I've wanted an IG troop truck for ages, my only complaint is the truck should carry like 20 or 30 guys not 10, but I'm happy. I feel like if this is half the price of a chimera (points wise, I know it will cost more dollar wise) and faster it fills a new role. A quick way to dash out your men during the endgame to claim objectives is very useful.
The current Chimera kit is ~15 to ~20 years old, yeah, older than some people posting on this thread, but it holds up and looks good. I'm sure a nice refresh would improve it, but it isn't critical and I don't think it would get folks to replace their existing kits.
Glad, to a point, that the Taurox chassis lineage is being fleshed out. I wish the old resin Gothic Bren Carrier were back instead. The armored car is, like the Rogal Dorn, without any chassis lineage and waaaaaay too weird war 2.
Not sure exactly when, but it did receive a refresh, and is notably different to the original.
Well, I did say "hull", not "kit".
The Chimera sprues were recut (twice I think) and received minor edits that narrowed the sides, stitched a bunch of tracks together and enlarged the turret, but I'm fairly certain the underlying design is the same as it was in 1995 in both layout and dimensions.
But you know what? You're right. I should be glad GW didn't touch the Chimera, if the new vehicles are any indication of where they're taking IG designs.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: [The current Chimera kit is ~15 to ~20 years old, yeah, older than some people posting on this thread, but it holds up and looks good. I'm sure a nice refresh would improve it, but it isn't critical and I don't think it would get folks to replace their existing kits.
You're probably right. In truth, if the new vehicles looked better, I probably wouldn't be complaining about it. Just old man things.
I will however remark that, locally, every single Leman Russ is the new HH version with scratch built or printed sponsons.
Slow mo playback of the launch vid shows a few things off:
* An ultramarine intercessor (not a sergeant) with a chainsword. Ork boyz are getting slugga/shoota - unlikley but perhaps marines are also combo-ing the different types of intercessor into 1 unit (could just be an assault intercessor with a "wrong" shoulder pad though, seems more likely that they have just forgotten that squad markings are a thing).
* New-old landspeeder is modernised by sticking loads of guns on it. Looks like it has an underslung onslaught gatling cannon, a melta up top, wing missiles, plus perhaps a pair of smaller guns (maybe stubbers) sticking out the front in the nipple gun position. Otherwise quite faithful to the 3rd edition-onwards design from the blurry vid.
* Ork sentinel has secondary rokkits under the chin to go with the KFF and the huge shoota up top.
* Van vets seem to be plasma (or maybe volkite) pistol plus power sword default, relic blade on the sergeant?
Oddities on the box art:
* Already mention several times about the gravis devastator in the foreground.
* New librarian in the back right? Blue armour and a staff? Looks like he's just left his overcoat at home now which is a welcome change if true.
* Not sure what the white heraldry on the mid left BA refers to - seems to just be a regular intercessor loadout.
Im sort of disappointed by this. Caving in to internet yelling isn't a great thing generally and theyre2025 early art sketches. So not only will the guard now have 4 legally distinct infantry, heavy weapons, command squads and +1 unique per regiment bloating it's ass out, it's also gobbling up a lot of releases and production effort for the next 2-3 years.
The copyright mark in the lowrr left corner that says "2025" makes it clear this was always the plan.
Im sort of disappointed by this. Caving in to internet yelling isn't a great thing generally and theyre2025 early art sketches. So not only will the guard now have 4 legally distinct infantry, heavy weapons, command squads and +1 unique per regiment bloating it's ass out, it's also gobbling up a lot of releases and production effort for the next 2-3 years.
The copyright mark in the lowrr left corner that says "2025" makes it clear this was always the plan.
Not really, it shows they drew them in 2025, it doesnt mean they ever intended to take it forwards and it obviously wasn't planned to coincide with 11th even if it did. Plus, kinda sucks for the poor catachans to get moved back if this is for their 11th codex.
Keep in mind the rather hysterical Valrak video title akin to “Steel Legion Am Done A Ded” is based solely on the trailer video from GW not showing Steel Legion.
That’s it. One video didn’t show a thing, and somehow that means that thing is now gone forever and ever and ever amen.
So is this something to appease fan discontent, or something to slap the hysterical back to their sense, Airplane! style?
Because the two aren’t the same. “But where are my Steel Legion” is of course a completely reasonable question. “Why Am You Distory Mai Favurit” is not.
Im sort of disappointed by this. Caving in to internet yelling isn't a great thing generally and theyre2025 early art sketches. So not only will the guard now have 4 legally distinct infantry, heavy weapons, command squads and +1 unique per regiment bloating it's ass out, it's also gobbling up a lot of releases and production effort for the next 2-3 years.
The copyright mark in the lowrr left corner that says "2025" makes it clear this was always the plan.
Not really, it shows they drew them in 2025, it doesnt mean they ever intended to take it forwards and it obviously wasn't planned to coincide with 11th even if it did. Plus, kinda sucks for the poor catachans to get moved back if this is for their 11th codex.
This. I'm guessing GW has a massive stash of concept arts by Blanche, Goodwin and others, for 'some vague time in the future', and only dug this one out to show off in response to the furor over a video detailing an alternate paint scheme.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Keep in mind the rather hysterical Valrak video title akin to “Steel Legion Am Done A Ded” is based solely on the trailer video from GW not showing Steel Legion.
That’s it. One video didn’t show a thing, and somehow that means that thing is now gone forever and ever and ever amen.
So is this something to appease fan discontent, or something to slap the hysterical back to their sense, Airplane! style?
Because the two aren’t the same. “But where are my Steel Legion” is of course a completely reasonable question. “Why Am You Distory Mai Favurit” is not.
There has definitely been a wave of the usual floor slapping "GW is destroying the setting, my favourite thing is gone, how unfair to people" in online communities, less so here. Immediately now followed by a wave of "LOOK THEY LISTENED!" which breeds a dangerous trend of people thinking they can moan aggressively as a vocal minority and get their way.
My concern is the vocal minority who were angry/upset are just GW drama tourists who like to be annoyed and they've now sinking resources into something that maybe won't actually sell well as those vocal people never really cared.
Regards slapping down drama, GW kinda caused this with the "paint krieg as Steel legion" article where they half wrote them out the setting. Which in turn makes this 180 even more confusing imo.
Dudeface wrote: My concern is the vocal minority who were angry/upset are just GW drama tourists who like to be annoyed and they've now sinking resources into something that maybe won't actually sell well as those vocal people never really cared.
Unfortunately, it's not just GW who are overly influenced by a vocal minority. Vocal minorities essentially dominate most of modern life.
Dudeface wrote: My concern is the vocal minority who were angry/upset are just GW drama tourists who like to be annoyed and they've now sinking resources into something that maybe won't actually sell well as those vocal people never really cared.
Yeah. Maybe I'm just becoming out of touch - but as dramas go this felt really astroturfed.
But it doesn't really bother me if GW want to release some more Guard with slightly different coats and patterns of lasgun some time in 2027.
Being negative is a miserable thing - but I feel Adepticon has managed to create anti-fomo for me. Was excited for Yarrick, but I really don't like the Commissar Carrier, and the other vehicles don't do much either. Orks seem to be going in a direction I don't love either. Space Marines are as boring as they were 3 decades ago.
Yeah. Maybe I'm just becoming out of touch - but as dramas go this felt really astroturfed.
Honestly this is just how the Internet works now. Many 'content creators' focus on reporting controversy where it barely existed, whipping up followers by telling them what they should be outraged about. Valrak himself squeezed a couple of videos from this and no doubt made a few quid from the ~100k views those pulled.
I have no doubts that the majority of the people engaging with this had no plans to buy a Steel Legion army before, and won't buy them in 2027/28 either.
Yeah. Maybe I'm just becoming out of touch - but as dramas go this felt really astroturfed.
Honestly this is just how the Internet works now. Many 'content creators' focus on reporting controversy where it barely existed, whipping up followers by telling them what they should be outraged about. Valrak himself squeezed a couple of videos from this and no doubt made a few quid from the ~100k views those pulled.
I have no doubts that the majority of the people engaging with this had no plans to buy a Steel Legion army before, and won't buy them in 2027/28 either.
It should also be noted a lot of content creators don't actually like it; but the way the algorithm is coded it tends to have a very heavy bias toward such content. So when its your job you do sometimes have to follow where the money is and that's where the code takes you.
There are certainly a good number of ways that the masters of youtube and so forth could adjust their sites to better favour other content.
It is true that the new guard vehicles look rather tame, but I like them. The commissar's vehicle is most 40K of them, but frankly, that I like the least.
I wonder how expensive the guard battalion will be. It seems like pretty solid with all new or newish models.
As for 11th box tease, could they have chosen any other marine model to use for the preview? A basic intercessor with a head swap is not particularly exiting. This is how half of my intercessors already look like.
Is the new intercessor slightly more squat/thicker proportions? Not so much in the posted image but more so.in the video and resembling Oldstartes a bit more in that regard.
GaroRobe wrote: I highly doubt GW would decide to do Steel Legion solely because there was a day of people moaning that they were mostly wiped out lol
If GW reacted that fast to feedback and that much then we'd have Exodites as a full army right now; be on our 5th round of Sisters of Battle plastic resculpts; have Space Crusade on the shelf and be at least 4 editions into Battlefleet Gothic and Epic 40K
I for one am sick and tired of companies listening to the thoughts and wishes of their customers. It's a dangerous trend... nuclear proliferation level dangerous? Yes.
I hate to break the bad news to some of you, but yes, the Steel Legion coming back was 100% by fan backlash. As far as a conspiracy theory by GW to make people want the Steel Legion and then give them the Steel Legion (two years from now when you won't remember any of this happening), I need to paraphrase Rob the Honest Wargamer when he said, you're vastly overestimating both how much GW marketing cares, and how competent they are at their jobs.
There's no reason for GW to no longer make multiple Imperial Guard regiments, they don't take many sprues to do, and they sell. It's toy soldier making 101.
I feel like if this is half the price of a chimera (points wise, I know it will cost more dollar wise) and faster it fills a new role. A quick way to dash out your men during the endgame to claim objectives is very useful.
If you think Steel Legion coming back is due to backlash I have a bridge to sell you.
Now showing off concept art? That may be just to show people they haven't forgotten them. Most likely what they are showing is just a Kill Team anyway which would make more sense to bring them back in some form. Just like how bringing in Krieg started as a Kill Team.
*quietly sits here constantly eyeing Krieg as a potential army*
I think its because they lean into that WW1 style aesthetic with the gasmasks, artillery and cavalry whilst having an alien/unhuman edge to them that just fits a sci-fi setting.
frankelee wrote: I for one am sick and tired of companies listening to the thoughts and wishes of their customers. It's a dangerous trend... nuclear proliferation level dangerous? Yes.
I hate to break the bad news to some of you, but yes, the Steel Legion coming back was 100% by fan backlash. As far as a conspiracy theory by GW to make people want the Steel Legion and then give them the Steel Legion (two years from now when you won't remember any of this happening), I need to paraphrase Rob the Honest Wargamer when he said, you're vastly overestimating both how much GW marketing cares, and how competent they are at their jobs.
There's no reason for GW to no longer make multiple Imperial Guard regiments, they don't take many sprues to do, and they sell. It's toy soldier making 101.
My opinion is that they had the SL in the tube, weren't ready to show them off yet, and released the yellow Krieg video as a stopgap. It wasn't malicious. It takes time to draw up concept art, approve final designs, et cetera, woof and woof.
frankelee wrote: I for one am sick and tired of companies listening to the thoughts and wishes of their customers. It's a dangerous trend... nuclear proliferation level dangerous? Yes.
I hate to break the bad news to some of you, but yes, the Steel Legion coming back was 100% by fan backlash. As far as a conspiracy theory by GW to make people want the Steel Legion and then give them the Steel Legion (two years from now when you won't remember any of this happening), I need to paraphrase Rob the Honest Wargamer when he said, you're vastly overestimating both how much GW marketing cares, and how competent they are at their jobs.
There's no reason for GW to no longer make multiple Imperial Guard regiments, they don't take many sprues to do, and they sell. It's toy soldier making 101.
My opinion is that they had the SL in the tube, weren't ready to show them off yet, and released the yellow Krieg video as a stopgap. It wasn't malicious. It takes time to draw up concept art, approve final designs, et cetera, woof and woof.
It also takes time to make videos and the fact they had assets for Krieg from past animations likely made it easier to use them for a super short trailer that was about Yarrick and not about the grunts than make brand new assets for something that isn't coming out for a while and would have tipped their hand on the new designs.
LunarSol wrote: Excited for all the Ork stuff. The rest is solid, but the Ork stuff is definitely what I'm most hyped for.
I note the Boy shown off has Slugga, Choppa and Shoota.
Provided it is a basic Boy? That could give Ork players some interesting new options.
If the assumption is that all boys have all the options from a game mechanic POV, it’s a little less required from a WYSWYG standpoint to differentiate. You can just mix boys with either/or/both in the same mob and call it done.
Indeed. Also, people being moany about WYSIWYG for base line “every comes with it” equipment need to give their head a wobble, and seem likely to be no fun any way,
LunarSol wrote: Excited for all the Ork stuff. The rest is solid, but the Ork stuff is definitely what I'm most hyped for.
I note the Boy shown off has Slugga, Choppa and Shoota.
Provided it is a basic Boy? That could give Ork players some interesting new options.
If the assumption is that all boys have all the options from a game mechanic POV, it’s a little less required from a WYSWYG standpoint to differentiate. You can just mix boys with either/or/both in the same mob and call it done.
Place bets, are intercessors and assault intercessors still a thing in 11th, or are intercessors all armed with chainsword, pistol and rifle?
I assume not from the preview mini, but it's a little weird it happened for boyz and nobody else. Unless they realised that hitting on 6s all game from the terrain change made the shoota basically worthless.
I assume not from the preview mini, but it's a little weird it happened for boyz and nobody else. Unless they realised that hitting on 6s all game from the terrain change made the shoota basically worthless.
It's entirely because they created a monopose Boyz kit that was locked to a 5 choppa/3 shoota is mix of grunts that didn't work at all on the table.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Indeed. Also, people being moany about WYSIWYG for base line “every comes with it” equipment need to give their head a wobble, and seem likely to be no fun any way,
How dare people care about their models being accurate representations of what they supposedly are!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Indeed. Also, people being moany about WYSIWYG for base line “every comes with it” equipment need to give their head a wobble, and seem likely to be no fun any way,
How dare people care about their models being accurate representations of what they supposedly are!
I want Grenades modeled on every guardsman an Eldar model!
I assume not from the preview mini, but it's a little weird it happened for boyz and nobody else. Unless they realised that hitting on 6s all game from the terrain change made the shoota basically worthless.
It's entirely because they created a monopose Boyz kit that was locked to a 5 choppa/3 shoota is mix of grunts that didn't work at all on the table.
Well it isn't because this replaces that kit logically.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Indeed. Also, people being moany about WYSIWYG for base line “every comes with it” equipment need to give their head a wobble, and seem likely to be no fun any way,
How dare people care about their models being accurate representations of what they supposedly are!
I want Grenades modeled on every guardsman an Eldar model!
Both have a fair point here.
Lord Damocles - it is good to have models fully built, and if converted or scratch built? Visually Distinctive From Across The Board. But, what I was getting at here is if I’m right and this is a sign that all Ork Boyz will come with Shoota, Slugga and Choppa regardless? Only a total Richard, who was never going to be a fun opponent anyway, is going to moan about WYSIWYG for older models. Granted and fair play I didn’t actually say that, so not having a pop.
Lathe Biosas - this sort of thing is also a fair point. If my unit comes with Frag Grenades, or Plasma Grenades, or Stikkbomz of whatever, as standard, as in they’re not actually an upgrade? Whether they’re modelled on the unit or not doesn’t really matter. But, and as I was fair to Lord Damocles? This doesn’t necessarily extend to Krak Grenades if they’re an upgrade, or if a unit can upgrade pistols to shootier pistols, but they’re all claimed to be holstered.
The key here is Visual Distinction For Upgrades Only.
Mr_Rose wrote: Interesting to see the return of Weirdboyz, and Land Speeders in the trailer but the new Mekboy walker is grabbing all my attention.
I do not care for the modern stormspeeders. They are too big and overgunned for lightweight recon support platforms. Which is the job of the classic Land Speeder. Good to see we will be getting them back. Hopefully not too mangled in the update.
I feel like some of the 40K models previewed would have been interesting 15 years ago.
I still hate the new soft round Orks. That first picture with the Biker Orks...That power claw thing what is that a power hand it's tiny and look completely under built to be an Ork weapon.
The Guard stuff is laughably late to the party as well. That half track specifically.
The sisters stuff looks like one would expect so hurray for continuity.
warhead01 wrote: I still hate the new soft round Orks. That first picture with the Biker Orks...That power claw thing what is that a power hand it's tiny and look completely under built to be an Ork weapon.
The klaw is designed in such a way that Wazdakka can still use it to hold the handle bar, which both explains the grooves at the base of the blades and its size.
Warhammer Community wrote:Ork Boyz now have the best of both worlds, with every boy carrying a choppa, slugga, AND shoota into battle – all they need to rake Space Marine lines with a hail of bullets before charging in for a proper scrap.
So, that’s a nice confirmation this thread, isn’t it Dakka?
Which is fantastic. If you watched the stream. And didn’t, to pick an example entirely at random which may or may not be based on my day today, have a 4:30am alarm set so you could be up and doing to be in the car for 5am for a commute to the office because you couldn’t actually get out of being in the office for once, when the steam was live at 1am.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Which is fantastic. If you watched the stream. And didn’t, to pick an example entirely at random which may or may not be based on my day today, have a 4:30am alarm set so you could be up and doing to be in the car for 5am for a commute to the office because you couldn’t actually get out of being in the office for once, when the steam was live at 1am.
(it's also written right above the picture of the new Boy in the community article).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Which is fantastic. If you watched the stream. And didn’t, to pick an example entirely at random which may or may not be based on my day today, have a 4:30am alarm set so you could be up and doing to be in the car for 5am for a commute to the office because you couldn’t actually get out of being in the office for once, when the steam was live at 1am.
(it's also written right above the picture of the new Boy in the community article).
Shhhh, don't tell Mad Dok to read the fine print! That's why he's locked into all his subscriptions for Jared Leto magazines with no way out!
Im sort of disappointed by this. Caving in to internet yelling isn't a great thing generally and theyre2025 early art sketches. So not only will the guard now have 4 legally distinct infantry, heavy weapons, command squads and +1 unique per regiment bloating it's ass out, it's also gobbling up a lot of releases and production effort for the next 2-3 years.
The copyright mark in the lowrr left corner that says "2025" makes it clear this was always the plan.
Not really, it shows they drew them in 2025, it doesnt mean they ever intended to take it forwards and it obviously wasn't planned to coincide with 11th even if it did. Plus, kinda sucks for the poor catachans to get moved back if this is for their 11th codex.
So what, you think its a coincidence that the last 10e Crusade was set on Armageddon, the last of the 10e filler material focuses on Armageddon, the 11e box is called Armageddon, and GW just conveniently has 2025 dated Steel Legion art ready to show off?
You really believe GW wasnt planning to sell all new, slightly different SL figures during 11e?
That they suddenly caved to internet bitching?
Oh and then they said something to the effect of the new SL kits won't be out until a couple of years from now. Hmm, sounds like they're planning to sell SL in 11e....
You know what that tells me? That my next Guard Codex will be along in 2028 - complete with a brand new version of the Steel Legion in tow.
I'm betting late Q2.
Beardy debate over why steel legion reveal timing asides....
It's very odd they seem to want to commit to a second great coat, helmet, mask infantry kit. As opposed to catachan, vostroyan or any other guard regiment. The most I expected was a conversion/heads kit and even that seemed a bit of an ask.
for the more larger vehicles that may be more in line with the current 40k size (the 1/35 M8/M20 armoured car has a length of 143 mm, just as a reference if we can figure out the length of the new 40k one), one should look for 1/35
you get the 3 vehicles from above also from the usual scale model shops in that size
Im sort of disappointed by this. Caving in to internet yelling isn't a great thing generally and theyre2025 early art sketches. So not only will the guard now have 4 legally distinct infantry, heavy weapons, command squads and +1 unique per regiment bloating it's ass out, it's also gobbling up a lot of releases and production effort for the next 2-3 years.
The copyright mark in the lowrr left corner that says "2025" makes it clear this was always the plan.
Not really, it shows they drew them in 2025, it doesnt mean they ever intended to take it forwards and it obviously wasn't planned to coincide with 11th even if it did. Plus, kinda sucks for the poor catachans to get moved back if this is for their 11th codex.
So what, you think its a coincidence that the last 10e Crusade was set on Armageddon, the last of the 10e filler material focuses on Armageddon, the 11e box is called Armageddon, and GW just conveniently has 2025 dated Steel Legion art ready to show off?
You really believe GW wasnt planning to sell all new, slightly different SL figures during 11e?
That they suddenly caved to internet bitching?
Oh and then they said something to the effect of the new SL kits won't be out until a couple of years from now. Hmm, sounds like they're planning to sell SL in 11e....
You know what that tells me? That my next Guard Codex will be along in 2028 - complete with a brand new version of the Steel Legion in tow.
I'm betting late Q2.
Yes. I think if you plan on spending 6 months hyping armageddon and all your steel legion art is dated after it was sent to the printer, you had no intention of releasing steel legion in the context of armageddon.
I really hope you're wrong. Catachan deserve a release for more than simply appeasing some internet egos with a subfaction 99% of people didn't care about 2 months ago.
It's very odd they seem to want to commit to a second great coat, helmet, mask infantry kit. As opposed to catachan, vostroyan or any other guard regiment. The most I expected was a conversion/heads kit and even that seemed a bit of an ask.
If they are two years away, that gives them plenty of time to sneak in some guys that don't have gasmasks.
If they can use a KT slot for Cadians in a coat there's no reason they can't pump out several different regiments
I'm not part of the Valrak ragetrain but Armageddon was my formative campaign, in my uni years I mained Speed Freeks and regularly faced a mostly Steel Legion IG army. Personally I'm frankly astounded anyone cares about Catachans
Dudeface wrote: Yes. I think if you plan on spending 6 months hyping armageddon and all your steel legion art is dated after it was sent to the printer, you had no intention of releasing steel legion in the context of armageddon.
Honestly Armageddon works as the context for all sorts of releases throughout the next edition. Something like half the factions in the game will be there.
They could plausibly spend a full Kill Team season covering releases like Marines, Orks, Grey Knights, Chaos, and eventually Steel Legion.
Amazing Adepticon releases/reveals, It really displays the massive raw volume of output GW is doing these days. How many models and sets have they revealed? It's a level of speed/quality unmatched and seems to be increasing by the year!
I cant keep up with it for sure and must confess, of all the new stuff, the new edition box and models seems to be what Im less interested in. Do we really need updated intercessors? The current kit is perfectly fine.
I generaly prefer infantry over vehicles but the new small vehicles are really nice Everyone is loving the red terror, mind its what you would expect of a model update but I cant shrug off the same design between a Ravener and a Trygon... its cool and all but nothing that gets me overly exited since we've seen these similar designs over and over again and Trygon still does its job just fine.
Probably boring for most but what really floats my boat and will make me open my wallet is the Zoat. I missed it first time around and since then I have been eyeballing it on eBay but scalping prices were simply absurd there. I absolutely love the idea of finally getting one of my few unicorn models. I want that one so bad.
So quite a good 40k Update with some nice surprises and sets. Positive vibes all around.
Because they're a blatant nod to the Vietnam war and Deathworlds have been a popular setting since the beginning with Rogue Trader itself. The conflict left a huge mark on pop culture during the 1980s ranging from The A-Team to ALIENS and Predator. Good Morning Vietnam, Apocalpse Now, Platoon, Born on the 4th of July, First Blood, Full Metal Jacket...there was no getting away from it.
That said, they need a name change! I can't help but read it as "Cat-Chans". Oh dear.
I'd definitely would rather have new Catachans than new Steel Legion. SL have very similar look and themes than the Krieg, whilst the Catachans are drastically different. But of course the current Catachan models are atrocious. I'd really love to see them in modern detail and proportions.
Other guard regiment I'd love to see is the Vostroyans. They again have very distinct look and are peak 40k.
Because they're a blatant nod to the Vietnam war and Deathworlds have been a popular setting since the beginning with Rogue Trader itself. The conflict left a huge mark on pop culture during the 1980s ranging from The A-Team to ALIENS and Predator. Good Morning Vietnam, Apocalpse Now, Platoon, Born on the 4th of July, First Blood, Full Metal Jacket...there was no getting away from it.
That said, they need a name change! I can't help but read it as "Cat-Chans". Oh dear.
Apparently the official way to pronounce it is Kat-a-kan, which I think must be something unique to the GW studio
Because they're a blatant nod to the Vietnam war and Deathworlds have been a popular setting since the beginning with Rogue Trader itself. The conflict left a huge mark on pop culture during the 1980s ranging from The A-Team to ALIENS and Predator. Good Morning Vietnam, Apocalpse Now, Platoon, Born on the 4th of July, First Blood, Full Metal Jacket...there was no getting away from it.
That said, they need a name change! I can't help but read it as "Cat-Chans". Oh dear.
Dudeface wrote: That they suddenly caved to internet bitching?
Wouldn't be the first time. See: Adepta Sororitas.
That was less 'internet bitching' and more 'they sent out a survey and got overwhleming feedback in favour'. The Adepta Sororitas won as a write-in candidate for 'what would you like to see in the future?'. A morte perpetua, Domine, libra nos.
Dudeface wrote: That they suddenly caved to internet bitching?
Wouldn't be the first time. See: Adepta Sororitas.
That was less 'internet bitching' and more 'they sent out a survey and got overwhleming feedback in favour'. The Adepta Sororitas won as a write-in candidate for 'what would you like to see in the future?'. A morte perpetua, Domine, libra nos.
Most recent internet bitching prior was deathwatch really
Dudeface wrote: That they suddenly caved to internet bitching?
Wouldn't be the first time. See: Adepta Sororitas.
That was less 'internet bitching' and more 'they sent out a survey and got overwhleming feedback in favour'. The Adepta Sororitas won as a write-in candidate for 'what would you like to see in the future?'. A morte perpetua, Domine, libra nos.
Most recent internet bitching prior was deathwatch really
Let's be real, all of the following were 100% internet bitching based:
Indexes post 7th edition.
The platonic idea of caring about army balance in ANY way.
Points in Age of Sigmar.
Having any kind of media presence, social or otherwise.
Warhammer The Old World.
Any fix to any on release rules oversight (Stormraven, Ironhands, Harlequins, Index Eldar)
Acknowledging that tournaments exist and that people play in them
Any army release that isn't Space Marines
Games Workshop's decision to announce new models at Adepticon is seen by some as supportive of third-party or "independent" gaming events. However in many ways it served to take attention from other third-party or "independent" gaming companies at the same event.
Dudeface wrote: That they suddenly caved to internet bitching?
Wouldn't be the first time. See: Adepta Sororitas.
That was less 'internet bitching' and more 'they sent out a survey and got overwhleming feedback in favour'. The Adepta Sororitas won as a write-in candidate for 'what would you like to see in the future?'. A morte perpetua, Domine, libra nos.
Most recent internet bitching prior was deathwatch really
Let's be real, all of the following were 100% internet bitching based:
Indexes post 7th edition.
The platonic idea of caring about army balance in ANY way.
Points in Age of Sigmar.
Having any kind of media presence, social or otherwise.
Warhammer The Old World.
Any fix to any on release rules oversight (Stormraven, Ironhands, Harlequins, Index Eldar)
Acknowledging that tournaments exist and that people play in them
Any army release that isn't Space Marines
UR-025 wrote: Games Workshop's decision to announce new models at Adepticon is seen by some as supportive of third-party or "independent" gaming events. However in many ways it served to take attention from other third-party or "independent" gaming companies at the same event.
There are many pros and cons to consider.
The independents will get to show their products to a wider audience. If of the thousands that went there for GW alone a small percentage gets independent products it's a win.
Salute is a good example, the independent market share is not as rosy as many seem to think it is.
Because they're a blatant nod to the Vietnam war and Deathworlds have been a popular setting since the beginning with Rogue Trader itself. The conflict left a huge mark on pop culture during the 1980s ranging from The A-Team to ALIENS and Predator. Good Morning Vietnam, Apocalpse Now, Platoon, Born on the 4th of July, First Blood, Full Metal Jacket...there was no getting away from it.
That said, they need a name change! I can't help but read it as "Cat-Chans". Oh dear.
Apparently the official way to pronounce it is Kat-a-kan, which I think must be something unique to the GW studio
That's the way that I've always pronounced it, so I'm pleased to hear that. I had been pronouncing "Arbites" wrong for a very, very long time though, you win some, you lose some
I'd also much rather see new Catachans rather than Steel Legion. Wargames Atlantic's Space Nam dudes look so good, there's no reason why modern GW couldn't make them even better if they put their minds to it.
Dudeface wrote: That they suddenly caved to internet bitching?
Wouldn't be the first time. See: Adepta Sororitas.
That was less 'internet bitching' and more 'they sent out a survey and got overwhleming feedback in favour'. The Adepta Sororitas won as a write-in candidate for 'what would you like to see in the future?'. A morte perpetua, Domine, libra nos.
And even in that case, it was an obvious lie from GW.
Given the dates on the first concept art that they revealed, they'd have to have dumped whatever they were working on, and started on Sisters of Battle effectively immediately after the survey.
Since it was clear that GW were mining nostalgia, and wanted to increase female representation amongst their ranges, it was blatantly obvious that they were going to do Sisters of Battle sooner rather than later.
(And bear in mind that 'people want Sisters of Battle hurdur' was literally the only result of GW's survey(s) which they ever shared (despite their claims beforehand) - very convenient!)
Hippogriff spare parts are going to do wonders for improving older kits. Spare melta cannons for magnetising Chimeras into Devil Dogs and battle cannons that don't look like novelty t-shirt cannons.
Oh right, they called it a battle cannon. That sort of flew over my head since, while it's absolutely oversized for its hull, it's dwarfed by the LR gun.
I had a full mechanized steel legion army back starting in 3rd (4th?) all the way until 6th when I sold it as I was scraping for money to get a condo. Only one of two war-hammer things I ever sold that I thoroughly regret, and I have sold a lot of 40k, fantasy, necromunda etc.over the years (I also regret selling my custom made Iron warrior DP, but this is about guard). Steel legion models would definitely get me back into guard. I mean the guard regiments is such an easy thing for GW to do. What one command squad and/or solo officer, one infantry squad kit, and one heavy weapon team kit, and BAM! you have a regiment,since they all use essentially the same vehicles etc. I bet we will see Catachans, Tallaran (however spelled), and all the other old ones at some point in the next decade, as it is such an easy thing to do and is just $$$ as you will probably get people buying mutliple infantry kits to build their favorite regiment, then another one and so on.
Also the new kill team looks really cool, but why Cadians? The same models only slightly modified could have been Catachans or Tallaran. oh well though.
Lord Damocles wrote: Given the dates on the first concept art that they revealed, they'd have to have dumped whatever they were working on, and started on Sisters of Battle effectively immediately after the survey.
Could be they had them in the making, but the survey made them either decide to fast-track it (we know stuff can languish in the development backrooms for a long time sometimes, like how a complete lady Malys was leaked ages before she actually released) or made them double down and invest extra in a faction they were going to do anyway.
UR-025 wrote: Games Workshop's decision to announce new models at Adepticon is seen by some as supportive of third-party or "independent" gaming events. However in many ways it served to take attention from other third-party or "independent" gaming companies at the same event.
There are many pros and cons to consider.
The independents will get to show their products to a wider audience. If of the thousands that went there for GW alone a small percentage gets independent products it's a win.
Salute is a good example, the independent market share is not as rosy as many seem to think it is.
Please don't interact with the AI chat-bot. We shouldn't be encouraging it.
Yarrick is a parody, I'm totally indifferent to him and his return. If he makes people happy I'm fine with it, but the ASL is probably for multiple reasons pointed out. Though just thinking if their badge has a simliar appearance to any real life groups.
UR-025 wrote: Games Workshop's decision to announce new models at Adepticon is seen by some as supportive of third-party or "independent" gaming events. However in many ways it served to take attention from other third-party or "independent" gaming companies at the same event.
There are many pros and cons to consider.
The independents will get to show their products to a wider audience. If of the thousands that went there for GW alone a small percentage gets independent products it's a win.
Salute is a good example, the independent market share is not as rosy as many seem to think it is.
Please don't interact with the AI chat-bot. We shouldn't be encouraging it.
Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down by the mods.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Shame they don't re-do the whole Guard range to remove bolt weapons, leave them for astartes. Lasers and stubbers would be a great aesthetic.
And chain swords and power fists. Those should only be weapons of Astartes.
Ashiraya wrote: Oh right, they called it a battle cannon. That sort of flew over my head since, while it's absolutely oversized for its hull, it's dwarfed by the LR gun.
You should google one of the Hippogryph inspiration the french AMX-10 RC; the 105 mm cannon on that thing looks even more oversized. It's actually longer than the vehicle itself. The last remaining of those "tank destroyers" are currently serving in Ukraine last I checked. Ironically, the Hippogryph armed with the melta or lascannon loors a bit more like the Amx-10 RC's replacement, the EBRC Jaguar. I wonder if it's pure coincidence or if the design team took direct inspiration from French armored recon vehicles.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Shame they don't re-do the whole Guard range to remove bolt weapons, leave them for astartes. Lasers and stubbers would be a great aesthetic.
And chain swords and power fists. Those should only be weapons of Astartes.
First they came for our Jetbikes, then our speeders and Rhino's. Long live the Imperial guard you giant mutant freaks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kind of lazy on the half track and APC, but I'm glad they bothered.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Shame they don't re-do the whole Guard range to remove bolt weapons, leave them for astartes. Lasers and stubbers would be a great aesthetic.
And chain swords and power fists. Those should only be weapons of Astartes.
First they came for our Jetbikes, then our speeders and Rhino's. Long live the Imperial guard you giant mutant freaks.
UR-025 wrote: Games Workshop's decision to announce new models at Adepticon is seen by some as supportive of third-party or "independent" gaming events. However in many ways it served to take attention from other third-party or "independent" gaming companies at the same event.
There are many pros and cons to consider.
The independents will get to show their products to a wider audience. If of the thousands that went there for GW alone a small percentage gets independent products it's a win.
Salute is a good example, the independent market share is not as rosy as many seem to think it is.
Please don't interact with the AI chat-bot. We shouldn't be encouraging it.
Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down by the mods.
Thank you for the heads up. I had no idea about this.
Dudeface wrote: That they suddenly caved to internet bitching?
Wouldn't be the first time. See: Adepta Sororitas.
That was less 'internet bitching' and more 'they sent out a survey and got overwhleming feedback in favour'. The Adepta Sororitas won as a write-in candidate for 'what would you like to see in the future?'. A morte perpetua, Domine, libra nos.
Most recent internet bitching prior was deathwatch really
Let's be real, all of the following were 100% internet bitching based:
Indexes post 7th edition.
The platonic idea of caring about army balance in ANY way.
Points in Age of Sigmar.
Having any kind of media presence, social or otherwise.
Warhammer The Old World.
Any fix to any on release rules oversight (Stormraven, Ironhands, Harlequins, Index Eldar)
Acknowledging that tournaments exist and that people play in them
Any army release that isn't Space Marines
are you saying those are bad things?
Maybe there's some merit to this 'no one has media literacy thing'.
I'm saying internet bitching is a GOOD thing way more often then people want to admit.
I feel like the problem with measuring "internet complaining" is that the internet collectively has complained about almost every aspect imaginable in the hobby. Its up, down, left and right all at once.
Sisters of Battle is sort of a case in point. Some people clearly liked the faction - and would buy an army if GW released one again. Others were completely indifferent, even hostile. GW have to somehow guess there's enough in group 1 for it to be worthwhile. But in turn have people been crying out for Squats to come back? For say Emperors Children as a distinct faction? There's been a lot of chat about the six guys with Steel Legion armys they build 25 years ago who are still inexplicably in the hobby - but is anyone that bothered about Red Corsairs or Eldar Corsairs?
FWIW I'd have probably dabbled in Sisters if one of the guys I most regularly play hadn't made them "his army" instantly. (Same for Death Guard, although I did still dabble a little bit.) I'd like them to be White Rose though, and painting white is masochistic.
For a more modern argument - I don't like these new IG vehicles and think the Commissar trukk especially looks stupid. But I know several IG players who are sadly looking at their wallets talking about how much they are going to spend.
I think there was clearly a kneejerk shift between AoS 1.0 (barely a game) and 8th edition 40k (very much a game first over everything else). But was this due to very vocal internet complaining/mockery - or weak initial sales for AoS?
The big aim of GW of course is to stimulate "New edition, new army". These models haven't really done the trick for me. Not sure my complaining is going to matter. Have to see what's earmarked for very late 2026 perhaps.
At what point does popular request become bitching?
Because I’m not convinced they’re at all the same thing.
Folk have been wanting Sisters Done Properly since 3rd Ed began. And instead GW flip flopped, and didn’t really give them anything new, barring redoing the tanks. And for many, an all metal army in the face of mass plasticification was less than appealing given the sheer expense. The flip flopping likely didn’t aid that, as who knew what the next incarnation might be?
Points for AoS. Again, that I’d say is more Popular Demand. I can’t recall the name of the genuine hero who did their own points that were then widely adopted. But the popularity of their efforts clearly reflected demand.
So, for clarity I’m not building to a “see, see, if we apply whichever definition I demand bitching actually achieves nothing” type thing. I just want to understand how others are defining it, and offering a second less loaded term of Popular Demand.
Because I’m not convinced they’re at all the same thing.
Folk have been wanting Sisters Done Properly since 3rd Ed began. And instead GW flip flopped, and didn’t really give them anything new, barring redoing the tanks. And for many, an all metal army in the face of mass plasticification was less than appealing given the sheer expense. The flip flopping likely didn’t aid that, as who knew what the next incarnation might be?
Points for AoS. Again, that I’d say is more Popular Demand. I can’t recall the name of the genuine hero who did their own points that were then widely adopted. But the popularity of their efforts clearly reflected demand.
So, for clarity I’m not building to a “see, see, if we apply whichever definition I demand bitching actually achieves nothing” type thing. I just want to understand how others are defining it, and offering a second less loaded term of Popular Demand.
Looking at steel legion, they're relevance and demand prior to March 2026 could be summed up at near 0. GW release yarrick, some people remember they exist. Suddenly YouTube videos and online posts pop up decrying "removal of fluff and simplification of the setting". Odd conspiracy crop up about politics. Content appears doom mongering the removal of a classic iconic regiment. People commence internet whinge. GW posts a paint guide on using existing minis to represent and notes they're reduced in number but still exist.
That is imo an example of the "bitching" process. Nobody lost anything at any point. No prior expectations or promises were missed. People generated a drama after the fact. The bulk of people complaining never wanted a steel legion force and likely won't buy one as a guess.
Complaining works but only if you are loud and numerous enough.
Space Marine fans are both, so they managed to get Deathwatch uncancelled.
The Warhammer community unfortunately isn't very good at solidarity (complaining on behalf of another faction losing stuff tends to be mocked instead...) so stuff without the sufficient fanbase to back up their complaints end up out of luck.
Looking at steel legion, they're relevance and demand prior to March 2026 could be summed up at near 0. GW release yarrick, some people remember they exist. Suddenly YouTube videos and online posts pop up decrying "removal of fluff and simplification of the setting". Odd conspiracy crop up about politics. Content appears doom mongering the removal of a classic iconic regiment. People commence internet whinge. GW posts a paint guide on using existing minis to represent and notes they're reduced in number but still exist.
That is imo an example of the "bitching" process. Nobody lost anything at any point. No prior expectations or promises were missed. People generated a drama after the fact. The bulk of people complaining never wanted a steel legion force and likely won't buy one as a guess.
You're right, no one seems to care about or discuss authentic Bolivian cuisine until you hype up taking everyone to a Bolivian restaurant next week as a treat, then you arrive at the local McDonald's with a Bolivian working the burger press. Suddenly all these chumps care about Bolivian food wtf!? Posers!
If the new setting were Mordia then people would have started clamouring wtf where are the mordians, ditto for whatever theatre the Elysian drop troops appeared in. Why reintroduce a setting linked to certain flavour of models while ignoring said models? Especially as it's pandering the the 40 year Olds who played in the era where SL was the hotness. Nostalgia bait without an actual product to sell, strange.
Yeah, look at its post history. Obvious chatGPT stuff. I've reported it and I know others have too, I've no idea why it's not been acted on.
It's an account named after a Man of Iron imitating AI speak, while posting some obviously inaccurate stuff.
I'm pretty confident that's just someone doing some old-fashioned trolling.
RustyNumber wrote: Why reintroduce a setting linked to certain flavour of models while ignoring said models?
They're not. They're reintroducing Armageddon explicitly as a callback to 2nd edition marines vs orks, who are the main focus of this. The Yarrick stuff is the starter before the main course.
Looking at steel legion, they're relevance and demand prior to March 2026 could be summed up at near 0. GW release yarrick, some people remember they exist. Suddenly YouTube videos and online posts pop up decrying "removal of fluff and simplification of the setting". Odd conspiracy crop up about politics. Content appears doom mongering the removal of a classic iconic regiment. People commence internet whinge. GW posts a paint guide on using existing minis to represent and notes they're reduced in number but still exist.
That is imo an example of the "bitching" process. Nobody lost anything at any point. No prior expectations or promises were missed. People generated a drama after the fact. The bulk of people complaining never wanted a steel legion force and likely won't buy one as a guess.
You're right, no one seems to care about or discuss authentic Bolivian cuisine until you hype up taking everyone to a Bolivian restaurant next week as a treat, then you arrive at the local McDonald's with a Bolivian working the burger press. Suddenly all these chumps care about Bolivian food wtf!? Posers!
If the new setting were Mordia then people would have started clamouring wtf where are the mordians, ditto for whatever theatre the Elysian drop troops appeared in. Why reintroduce a setting linked to certain flavour of models while ignoring said models? Especially as it's pandering the the 40 year Olds who played in the era where SL was the hotness. Nostalgia bait without an actual product to sell, strange.
Did you clamour for a Steel Legion force before, during or after the reveals? Do you intend to put your mouth where your snark is and buy some?
Looking at steel legion, they're relevance and demand prior to March 2026 could be summed up at near 0. GW release yarrick, some people remember they exist. Suddenly YouTube videos and online posts pop up decrying "removal of fluff and simplification of the setting". Odd conspiracy crop up about politics. Content appears doom mongering the removal of a classic iconic regiment. People commence internet whinge. GW posts a paint guide on using existing minis to represent and notes they're reduced in number but still exist.
That is imo an example of the "bitching" process. Nobody lost anything at any point. No prior expectations or promises were missed. People generated a drama after the fact. The bulk of people complaining never wanted a steel legion force and likely won't buy one as a guess.
You're right, no one seems to care about or discuss authentic Bolivian cuisine until you hype up taking everyone to a Bolivian restaurant next week as a treat, then you arrive at the local McDonald's with a Bolivian working the burger press. Suddenly all these chumps care about Bolivian food wtf!? Posers!
If the new setting were Mordia then people would have started clamouring wtf where are the mordians, ditto for whatever theatre the Elysian drop troops appeared in. Why reintroduce a setting linked to certain flavour of models while ignoring said models? Especially as it's pandering the the 40 year Olds who played in the era where SL was the hotness. Nostalgia bait without an actual product to sell, strange.
Did you clamour for a Steel Legion force before, during or after the reveals? Do you intend to put your mouth where your snark is and buy some?
In order of your questions:
Before = No, because I already have a SL force from the 3e days. And I augmented it a bit a few years ago via a MTO or Last Chance to buy (I forget wich it was)
During/after = No, because I already have a SL force from the 3e days. And I augmented it a bit a few years ago via a MTO or Last Chance to buy (I forget wich it was)
Will I buy the "new" version of the SL in a few years? Yes I will. Because I have a standing army of every IG regiment (and version of the regiment) GWs released to date. Except Elysians (but thats just because I've never gotten around to building that one) & Krieg (a mix of FW resin + bulked out with the current plastics).
Yes, I have 3 complete & distinct forces of Cadians - 2e, 3e plastic, & 9e plastic. and 2 Catachan forces - 2e & 3e plastic.
So barring the unforeseen, I fully expect to have 2 SL forces.
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Ashiraya wrote: Complaining works but only if you are loud and numerous enough.
Space Marine fans are both, so they managed to get Deathwatch uncancelled.
But that's really nothing. Because GW was never going to stop selling DW models as they were already in the coming Agents book.
The only thing that happened was a change in what PDF dedicated DW only players accessed for their rules. Do I click on a Legends PDF or a non-legends PDF....
Either way, didn't cost GW anything.
New SL figures though? That's an investment of time & $. Concept art, figure design, the molds, production time, the packaging, the advertising....
But you want me to believe that a sudden outcry by a tiny # of people this past week was enough to convince GW to pull the trigger on making these investments? HaHaHa, NO.
We were always going to get these new SL figures.
Did you clamour for a Steel Legion force before, during or after the reveals? Do you intend to put your mouth where your snark is and buy some?
Nah, I already have a bunch of the almost-SL guard minis from wargames atlantic and run them with free STL print not-chimeras for reasons of both price and interest in non-GW minis. But that shouldn't stop me from wading in when people are wrong on the internet. Or whinging about people whinging about people whinging etc
Did you clamour for a Steel Legion force before, during or after the reveals? Do you intend to put your mouth where your snark is and buy some?
Nah, I already have a bunch of the almost-SL guard minis from wargames atlantic and run them with free STL print not-chimeras for reasons of both price and interest in non-GW minis. But that shouldn't stop me from wading in when people are wrong on the internet. Or whinging about people whinging about people whinging etc
Yeah fair play, I don't think it's unfair for people who like acrual main line armies that have been neglected to be annoyed that this happened though is my concern. There are rumours of big GK and DE releases, but GW hasn't flashed up artwork because there hasn't been an influencer led lashback.
Instead when you consider they can't make everything for everyone all the time, it might appear that guard having "minorly distinct infantry unit 11 or whatever" vs getting grotesque back or GK being the right size is a bit off.
Dudeface wrote: Instead when you consider they can't make everything for everyone all the time, it might appear that guard having "minorly distinct infantry unit 11 or whatever" vs getting grotesque back or GK being the right size is a bit off.
GW did it to themselves by making different model lines for the same units in the first place tho, and set expectations. We're also eagerly awaiting the (re)sculpt of the fourth armour mark in Heresy
Does this mean some bean counter somewhere has decided that a fourth plastic Guard line will sell better than Grotesques? Either that, or they straight up forgot the Haemonculi side of DE even exists, which seems equally likely at this point. Wracks have been Direct only for what, 3 editions?
ccs wrote: But that's really nothing. Because GW was never going to stop selling DW models as they were already in the coming Agents book. The only thing that happened was a change in what PDF dedicated DW only players accessed for their rules. Do I click on a Legends PDF or a non-legends PDF...
It's not nothing, it's absolutely massive. The casual 40k community has become completely suffused with a competitive (or faux-competitive) mindset. Players who will never attend a tournament in their lives still obsess over winrates and tierlists. It's utterly saturated.
Your army being legends or not legends will, unless you are very lucky, decide if your army gets games at all, to say nothing of how few events permit legends.
Valrak said on his live stream tonight that the same source that told him that there was a new Wazdakka coming said that there was also a new Nazdreg coming. Presumably with the 11th Ork release.
Dudeface wrote: Instead when you consider they can't make everything for everyone all the time, it might appear that guard having "minorly distinct infantry unit 11 or whatever" vs getting grotesque back or GK being the right size is a bit off.
I agree completely, and as I said earlier it's very strange it seems they're planning on "slightly different great coat and gas mask troops" as a kit. You have to assume the kreig launch went bananas and now guard IS more valuable than DE or something.
The Destrier is the bigger surprise. At 140 instead of 150 it's only slightly cheaper than a full Questoris, and the Questoris comes with way more alt builds.
The Defiler is about where I expected.
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xttz wrote: I'm pretty confident that's just someone doing some old-fashioned trolling.
Dudeface wrote: I find the defiler price point in a weird spot, it's not so insulting I'd never get one, but it's too much to want more than one as well.
It needs to be a 300+pt model to justify it really imo. The game shrinkflation needs to stop.
Its points to price ratio will surely be better than most squad boxes still.
Very upset about the Destrier price but I'll only say that It's now time for GW to fold the Imperial Knights and Ad-Mech into a single codex, and be done with it.
SamusDrake wrote: Very upset about the Destrier price but I'll only say that It's now time for GW to fold the Imperial Knights and Ad-Mech into a single codex, and be done with it.
On the verge of an edition with combined detachments, this is crushingly unlikely. The way to combine Knights and Mechinucs in 11th will be to to take a small detachment of each from the Codexes which will already exist when the edition launches.
As they update the Codices, I suppose it's still possible, but I think the combined detachment solution will ultimately be more elegant and provide a greater number of options.
Dudeface wrote: I find the defiler price point in a weird spot, it's not so insulting I'd never get one, but it's too much to want more than one as well.
It needs to be a 300+pt model to justify it really imo. The game shrinkflation needs to stop.
Its points to price ratio will surely be better than most squad boxes still.
On the verge of an edition with combined detachments, this is crushingly unlikely. The way to combine Knights and Mechinucs in 11th will be to to take a small detachment of each from the Codexes which will already exist when the edition launches.
As they update the Codices, I suppose it's still possible, but I think the combined detachment solution will ultimately be more elegant and provide a greater number of options.
Not biting the messenger - you're just looking at it logically and I shake your hand - so the following isn't aimed at you, but just expressing how I feel about what comes next...
They can shove 11th edition, where Imperial Knights are concerned. I'd much rather buy another pack of Armigers and carry on using the 10th edition codex, because by the time we get the 11th edition codex Valrak will be banging on about 12th edition when 40K gets a complete re-write anyway.
Glass-half-full, I can only hope that GW might introduce a Combat Patrol box with a Destrier and a pair of Armigers. Considering that they're willing to do a £130 limited run boxset for a Dominus and 2 Armigers, that's not asking for too much for a set that lasts for a 3 year run. Strip them down to a Helverin, Warglaive and Destrier with the chaingun & lance-spear thingy, and they leave some reason to purchase the individual kits for additional options.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And in other news...yup, Imperial Knights: Renegade returns in White Dwarf with other Superheavies to follow in later issues...
A new mini-game – based on a classic boxed set of yore called Imperial Knights: Renegade* – pits two Knights against each other in a one-on-one duel.
Rather than using rules from Warhammer 40,000, these Titanic Duels have a custom action system that gives you fine control over your Knight’s every move, including a hit location chart that models individual parts with their own damage effects. It’s incredibly cinematic and a fun game to play when you don’t have time for a full-size clash – there are rules for Knights Questoris and Knights Abhorrent, but if you’re wondering how other super-heavies would go up against the Knights in a Titanic Duel, future issues may just have you covered.
Wonder if this will replace the nob model normally included in boyz squads, and instead we get 10 boyz plus these separate characters to attach and use as 'lieutenants'.
Might be a good thing in the long run, as no doubt boss nobs will end up dirt cheap from people breaking up starter sets & launch boxes. Better than having multiple warbosses...
Is Boss Nob a cut above regular Nobs? Or is to add distinction between Nobs that lead Mobs of Boyz, and Nobs that form their own units? Or, does this delineate a third type of Nob, which can be added to Mobs which might already have a unit leader Nob?
I think it’s the first one myself, and so unit leaders are the Boss Nobs.
I definitely think it's to distinguish between different types of Nob.
Boss Nobs are Nobs who boss around units
Then you have Mob Nobs who are Nobs in Mobs
And possibly additional Nob types as well
This would allow them to have different datasheets/stats/abilities/keywords for different types of Nob. So for example your unit leader has a mob-buffing ability that would be completely out of place in a unit of nobs, or stratagems that target specific Nob types
It's very important to always get the right kind of Nob
skrulnik wrote: Hastarii at $70 is a no go from me. Especially if it is 5 dudes.
Defiler would have been nice at $100, at $150 it would have been a maybe. At $175 its a feth no.
The Dorn battlegroup I expected $250 for the ubiquitous Redemptor, monopose Ballistarus, and 2 Executioners. Over $300 is another no go.
Finding myself priced out of 40k once again. Glad I have backlog to cover the rest of my life.
At this point, Battletech and Gundam are better choices for the price points compared to updated Firsrborns(different types of games, though).
I found a box of Fellgors and an Orgor team collecting dust in a comic book store, and I'm playing Darkwater. I guess after those projects(and Darkwater's expansions) that's pretty much all I'll spend on GW at this point.
WHFB had a "big boss" rank of low-ranking HQ in between the warboss commanders and the unit leaders simply called boss.
40k has never really had this to my knowledge, at least not for an awfully long time. The closest you get is the "nob leader" who occasionally appears leading nobz mobs, such as in Dawn of War II, but that's no standard member of the crew.
Ashiraya wrote: WHFB had a "big boss" rank of low-ranking HQ in between the warboss commanders and the unit leaders simply called boss.
40k has never really had this to my knowledge, at least not for an awfully long time. The closest you get is the "nob leader" who occasionally appears leading nobz mobs, such as in Dawn of War II, but that's no standard member of the crew.
2nd edition had the 'standardised' character progression for champions, heroes and mighty heroes in every faction, and I think Big Boss was the middle tier for Orks.
Boss Nobs = Head of Mobs. The ‘ardest lad in the group and so the boss.
Nobs = groups of like minded ‘ard nuts. Possibly long serving veterans of Mobs long since perished, grouping together with the best gear left over to boot.
Big Nobs = The Warboss’ more or less trusted cronies. These are above the other Nobs, and charged with enforcing the Warboss’ will when he’s off krumpin’ gits elsewhere. These are typically (and not just invented by me!) the Warboss’ best buddies, those who have been with him his entire life. Ideally they should ded big, ded tuff, and have little to no actual ambition beyond thumping things and drinking.
His teef are too small, but that's the case for all post-8th edition orks.
Like the squig, but probably not enough to get him just for that, especially when I have Grukk on the painting table with a proper head, a proper squig, the same gun and a proper Klaw instead of just a choppa .
Gordy2000 wrote: Agreed, they just can’t seem to get the teeth right on the newer Orks.
Also, no power klaw or even a big choppa?
While they have never been meta gameplay wise, Nobz using regular choppas is perfectly common in the lore.
Remember Assault on Black Reach?
Also, in a game with points costs for equipment it was quite sensible to have a full on shooty Boss with just a choppa for joining Flash Gitz'n stuff. I know I converted one to lead my shoota boyz.
Gordy2000 wrote: Agreed, they just can’t seem to get the teeth right on the newer Orks.
Also, no power klaw or even a big choppa?
While they have never been meta gameplay wise, Nobz using regular choppas is perfectly common in the lore.
Remember Assault on Black Reach?
Probably just hopium from me, but the Nob has a similar style to the new Warboss (vest covering up the joint for different arm options), so an ETB starter set Nob could still have some options.
If the ETB Orks do have some variety, I would be easily convinced to pick up a few copies of the inevitable starter sets.
So right now there are essentially 3 configs for the Boss Nob:
- Big Choppa/Slugga
- Power Klaw/Slugga
- Kombi-Weapon/CCW
The current monopose kit only supports the first two, so this guy is just a model to represent the third option. I do suspect it will change to a Choppa since Boyz no longer have need for a CCW.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Also, in a game with points costs for equipment it was quite sensible to have a full on shooty Boss with just a choppa for joining Flash Gitz'n stuff. I know I converted one to lead my shoota boyz.
Yeah. I have a LOT of beef with Power Level (in points' clothing) becoming the de facto means of 40k armybuilding these days, but this is one of the reasons. Weapons like heavy bolters, chainswords and their many equivalents across the factions were rarely the "meta" choice, but at least they used to have the decency of being cheaper!
I really hope next edition brings back points, but I have a grim feeling that "powerlevels" are here to stay. Someone at GW has been pushing for it for ages and seems to have won the battle.
On the one front yes it makes army building easier; but on the other it saps a huge chunk of flavour. Plus yeah some weapons are just outright better on paper so why not take them if they " cost" the same.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: His teef are too small, but that's the case for all post-8th edition orks.
Like the squig, but probably not enough to get him just for that, especially when I have Grukk on the painting table with a proper head, a proper squig, the same gun and a proper Klaw instead of just a choppa .
No, the teeth are still too big. They're looney toons too big. They're too large for his mouth and there are too few of them. Brian Nelson's cartoon ape orks teeth have always looked ridiculous due to being too large for them to close their mouths properly.
Overread wrote: I really hope next edition brings back points, but I have a grim feeling that "powerlevels" are here to stay. Someone at GW has been pushing for it for ages and seems to have won the battle.
On the one front yes it makes army building easier; but on the other it saps a huge chunk of flavour. Plus yeah some weapons are just outright better on paper so why not take them if they " cost" the same.
They wanted to make the game easier to pick up for beginners and/or casual gamers. Okay, that's fine with me. Just do the points/power level split like they used to so we "serious" gamers can still toys with list streamlining.
Because the truth is, list streamlining was never the bottleneck. Anyone who remembers what 9e was actually like also remembers that everyone rejected PL outright, even casuals, because it just didn't achieve anything meaningful.
40k's complexity is and will most likely always be in moment to moment gameplay and interactions. Here is where even 10th edition is a mess because of the game's fundamental nature. An ultimately forgivable mess, on some level (though the writing often leaves a lot to be desired - even 10th edition has an absolute ton of FAQ and errata...), but still a mess. Imagine going into the wonderfully streamlined and new player friendly 10th edition and watching your melee unit face a no-sell situation because your enemy stands 1" away from a magic wall, making it impossible to get to them because you're not allowed to stand -in- the wall and you cannot reach engagement range through it. This is the kind of stuff that is seen as perfectly normal in tournaments, and it's unbelievably janky.
Building a list was never hard. It's not difficult to go "Allarus cost X points per model". It's not way more new player friendly to go "Allarus are X points for 2 models, Y points for 3 models, Z points for 5 models and G points for 6 models, also you can't take 4 models because only one Allarus Shield-Captain conversion is sanctioned".
It's trimming the bread at this point, not the butter.
Frankly, it feels like it's GW making it easier on -themselves- (reducing the number of moving parts) rather than for us.
Metal, scrap, fuel, innovative know-what and dakka aren't cheap, especially in this galactical situation. You'll have to invest sum teef to keep up - spend them now before your jaw is raided by kompetitors.
Overread wrote: I really hope next edition brings back points, but I have a grim feeling that "powerlevels" are here to stay. Someone at GW has been pushing for it for ages and seems to have won the battle.
On the one front yes it makes army building easier; but on the other it saps a huge chunk of flavour. Plus yeah some weapons are just outright better on paper so why not take them if they " cost" the same.
They wanted to make the game easier to pick up for beginners and/or casual gamers. Okay, that's fine with me. Just do the points/power level split like they used to so we "serious" gamers can still toys with list streamlining.
Yeah but honestly its not THAT hard to add up - plus GW has the app now that they push hard which does all the adding up for you. Streamline the app a bit more to work better and there'd be no barrier
Hellebore wrote: No, the teeth are still too big. They're looney toons too big. They're too large for his mouth and there are too few of them. Brian Nelson's cartoon ape orks teeth have always looked ridiculous due to being too large for them to close their mouths properly.
And your point is?
I think the only thing that’s off about the new model is the chainsword-like weapon. I think the other Boyz would point at it and laugh.
Ashiraya wrote: Because the truth is, list streamlining was never the bottleneck. Anyone who remembers what 9e was actually like also remembers that everyone rejected PL outright, even casuals, because it just didn't achieve anything meaningful.
40k's complexity is and will most likely always be in moment to moment gameplay and interactions. Here is where even 10th edition is a mess because of the game's fundamental nature. An ultimately forgivable mess, on some level (though the writing often leaves a lot to be desired - even 10th edition has an absolute ton of FAQ and errata...), but still a mess. Imagine going into the wonderfully streamlined and new player friendly 10th edition and watching your melee unit face a no-sell situation because your enemy stands 1" away from a magic wall, making it impossible to get to them because you're not allowed to stand -in- the wall and you cannot reach engagement range through it. This is the kind of stuff that is seen as perfectly normal in tournaments, and it's unbelievably janky.
Building a list was never hard. It's not difficult to go "Allarus cost X points per model". It's not way more new player friendly to go "Allarus are X points for 2 models, Y points for 3 models, Z points for 5 models and G points for 6 models, also you can't take 4 models because only one Allarus Shield-Captain conversion is sanctioned".
It's trimming the bread at this point, not the butter.
Frankly, it feels like it's GW making it easier on -themselves- (reducing the number of moving parts) rather than for us.
Pretty much this really. There's no running units with unusual numbers to dodge breakpoints that weirdly makes the 20th member of a unit less valuable than the 19th arbitrarily for example. So GW can control a smaller number of variables.
The wargear element is likely they know people field the "best" unit largely, so a fixed price is realistically representing what 75% of that unit (in their data) fields anyway and anyone who was running suboptimally is still... running suboptimally.
That removes a lot of dials and moving parts from their perspective, so it's making their job easier. It just robs that small amount of wiggle and faff from those who want to push the system in ways GW don't really care for.
Hellebore wrote: No, the teeth are still too big. They're looney toons too big. They're too large for his mouth and there are too few of them. Brian Nelson's cartoon ape orks teeth have always looked ridiculous due to being too large for them to close their mouths properly.
And your point is?
I think the only thing that’s off about the new model is the chainsword-like weapon. I think the other Boyz would point at it and laugh.
I was responding to someone else saying the inverse, so my point was in my answer. Your comment about his chainsword is further down the same looney toons flanderisation - orks aren't just oversized mallets and stupid teeth.
Hellebore wrote: I was responding to someone else saying the inverse, so my point was in my answer. Your comment about his chainsword is further down the same looney toons flanderisation - orks aren't just oversized mallets and stupid teeth.
I was trying to be funny - the fact that the teeth are oversized is kind of the point. Orks have never been remotely realistic - the pre-Nelson versions were even more cartoon-like (see also Paul Bonner's brilliant artwork). The only exception was the GorkaMorka models, which were more sensible but rather boring. Giving the new Nob model a slightly Orky looking chainsaw just doesn't work, IMO.
Hellebore wrote: I was responding to someone else saying the inverse, so my point was in my answer. Your comment about his chainsword is further down the same looney toons flanderisation - orks aren't just oversized mallets and stupid teeth.
I was trying to be funny - the fact that the teeth are oversized is kind of the point. Orks have never been remotely realistic - the pre-Nelson versions were even more cartoon-like (see also Paul Bonner's brilliant artwork). The only exception was the GorkaMorka models, which were more sensible but rather boring. Giving the new Nob model a slightly Orky looking chainsaw just doesn't work, IMO.
There are some similar looking chainsword choppas already in the classic boyz kit, so it's okay to me.
Concerning orky proportions, I think it's okay for them to have these large heads, oversized teef and big hands- they're aliens after all in a universe that can't be taken seriously. Orks can't close their mouth? So what, then they don’t, they'll still have fun eating you.
I'm building beast snaggas currently, after painting the old metal nobz, and the difference is pretty stark, they can hardly be seen as the same species. I think I'll stay away from further modern orks (or need to buy more 3rd party heads), they're just not the style I'm looking for.
No, the teeth are still too big. They're looney toons too big. They're too large for his mouth and there are too few of them. Brian Nelson's cartoon ape orks teeth have always looked ridiculous due to being too large for them to close their mouths properly.
I will counter with Space Marines can only move because parts of the armour clip through each other or have mysterious undercuts.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: There are some similar looking chainsword choppas already in the classic boyz kit, so it's okay to me.
You mean the cool motorised choppa with teef? That's much heftier looking than the new Nob's weapon, which is distinctly humie-styled .
Concerning orky proportions, I think it's okay for them to have these large heads, oversized teef and big hands- they're aliens after all in a universe that can't be taken seriously. Orks can't close their mouth? So what, then they don’t, they'll still have fun eating you.
I'm building beast snaggas currently, after painting the old metal nobz, and the difference is pretty stark, they can hardly be seen as the same species. I think I'll stay away from further modern orks (or need to buy more 3rd party heads), they're just not the style I'm looking for.
Yes, it's a bit strange to insist on realistic proportions for green alien humanoids.
The Beast Snaggas have a very distinct aesthetic - they do look like at least a different sub-species. I found that they don't look very good next to other Ork models, so I replaced the heads on all of the associated units (Stormboyz, vehicle krew etc) with Beast Snagga heads. Which, coincidentally, tended to improve their appearance.
Hellebore wrote: No, the teeth are still too big. They're looney toons too big. They're too large for his mouth and there are too few of them. Brian Nelson's cartoon ape orks teeth have always looked ridiculous due to being too large for them to close their mouths properly.
And your point is?
I think the only thing that’s off about the new model is the chainsword-like weapon. I think the other Boyz would point at it and laugh.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I was meaning Epic Armageddon the game. But now you mention it, it was indeed the Siegfried’s.
The first expansion had Baran PDF in it. A fan made supplement had krieg in it, largely done by evilandchaos. Or chaosandevil. Forget which ID he has on this site.
Slightly related to 40K, but anyone got a feeling both the rest of 10E and the next season of Kill Team will solely focus on Armageddon, leading up to 11E?
I really like these new Orks. Unless the rest of the Greenskin side is a disappointing downgrade from these two, I'll be getting the launch box for the Orks.
I've found recent ork sculpts at bit hit and miss. I too find the mouths / teeth a big factor.
While I loved the old school Brian Nelson look, these are fine, too.
Some of the more recent sculpts have had both small and sparse teeth which the decades old 'bigger teef are worth more' fluff nut in me really didn't like.
For me, at least, these guys work. They look fun to paint. I'm keen to see how evil they have made the rumoured Grots.
parakuribo wrote: Slightly related to 40K, but anyone got a feeling both the rest of 10E and the next season of Kill Team will solely focus on Armageddon, leading up to 11E?
Considering 11th is literally an Armageddon box, past then, too.
I’m wondering if Xenology (the first one) was on the money, and Ghaz is indeed a Leader Caste Oddboy.
As well as appreciating the old man can put up a helluva fight? His grasp of tactics is good for sharpening up Ghaz’s underlings, ensuring it’s not just krumpin’ they’re getting really good at, but the kunnin’ side of things as well. A way to not just maximise the number of Really Good Fights even the lowliest Boy gets involved in, but maximising the number that survive, making the whole lot ‘Arder and ‘Arder and ‘Arder.
Not a new Orky Evolution by any means, just the first time a Waaagh! of sufficient size has been going in a long, long time.
Seriously I think Ghaz is just treating it like having a playdate now.
It would be funny if that is how he's treating it, unaware in the way Orks are of the frailty and aging of humans
I guess this time it's Deus Ex Wolf Machina for how Yarrick survived.
But yeah, there's precedence for Ghazzy not delivering the killing blow and wanting more of a challenge, so I think he's trying to milk Yarrick for what he's worth by not killing him.
Seriously I think Ghaz is just treating it like having a playdate now.
It would be funny if that is how he's treating it, unaware in the way Orks are of the frailty and aging of humans
I guess this time it's Deus Ex Wolf Machina for how Yarrick survived.
But yeah, there's precedence for Ghazzy not delivering the killing blow and wanting more of a challenge, so I think he's trying to milk Yarrick for what he's worth by not killing him.
It could be the first Ork tragedy if Ghaz accidentally kills his frenemy
Honestly I think the Yarrick v Ghazgkull fightromance is one of the better parts of the lore. It retains the more amusing quirkier feel from the older editions.
I note the end paragraph saying the new minis and the book are available "soon". So mid to late April we're assuming?
Yeah, an actual new art featuring 40k Perty does rather suggest he's the next Primarch to get released doesn't it.
I'm also glad to read that the Space Wolves just rescued Yarrick at the last second and let him recover on their ship, rather than anything silly like necromancy as previously rumoured.
Gordy2000 wrote: Agreed, they just can’t seem to get the teeth right on the newer Orks.
Also, no power klaw or even a big choppa?
While they have never been meta gameplay wise, Nobz using regular choppas is perfectly common in the lore.
Remember Assault on Black Reach?
In 10th edition, there is no way to field a nob with a regular choppa.
The kit they currently sell still comes with regular choppas, so I figure it's either a rules writing mistake, or them telling you to play them as big choppas since they don't care to make regular choppas a serious option in a free wargear world.
And it isn't a serious option, but that's sort of the problem.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?
No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.
Ashiraya wrote: Because the truth is, list streamlining was never the bottleneck. Anyone who remembers what 9e was actually like also remembers that everyone rejected PL outright, even casuals, because it just didn't achieve anything meaningful.
The issue with PL as it was first implemented is that the options were still built around being upgrades instead of serving different roles and units being designed to take as many of them as you were willing to pay for. It's a completely different system when you add the box lock to limit the number of special weapons that can be taken and design those weapon options to take on different defensive profiles.
That's not to say they got it perfect. There are lots of weapons that just didn't work out. Assault Cannons clearly being built around a version of Oath that stopped existing for example. Flamers just don't reliably have enough volume of fire to make up for the weak base stats. It's far from perfect, but also not remotely the same to what was wrong with PL.
Daemon Prince Perturabo, first image of him ever post-ascension.
Not much of a plan of conquest though. Attack...dig in...attack again...dig in. Thousands of years to basically decide on galactic scale trench warfare. Just how does he expect to win an attritional war against the Imperium when Chaos mortal forces are outnumbered? Daemons? Perturabo is supposedly distrustful and contemptuous of those that rely on daemons or end up being controlled by daemons. Relying on daemons to make up the difference in attritional warfare doesn't seem like his style.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Dunno, a steady, measured advance with fortifications left in your wake sounds pretty solid.
Time consuming? Yes. But when you’re Immortal? What does time matter to you.
And how does he plan to garrison them as he moves forward? Or is he going to leave them with understrength garrisons or even empty? His mortal forces are not infinite. Realspace fortifications and weaponry will also require maintenance and ammunition, while troops will need food. How is he going to keep them all supplied (especially if he turns each world into a wasteland of fortifications)? The demands on his forces and logistical train will grow and grow. While he might strip mine worlds initially to raise his fortifications, not sure how he will keep them sustainable in the long run.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Chaos forces are vast. And success attracts followers. There’s your garrison right there.
Modern Astartes aren’t terribly well suited to grinding attrition. So, with the right defences and designs and that? You can bleed Astartes dry without needing especially good troops. And when you’ve fortified and garrisoned a world? There’s your supply chain right there. The planet’s own resources.
Definitely Krieg. Released by the Fanatic! imprint.
They were released as part of the 1st Epic A supplement, so a krieg history but used by Baran PDF. Came out in the 'swordwind' suppliment with Eldar and feral orks.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?
No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.
Actually, it is a form of death per modern medicine. It's what's referred to as "medically dead" and CPR revives from medical death.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?
No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.
Actually, it is a form of death per modern medicine. It's what's referred to as "medically dead" and CPR revives from medical death.
No it is not death. It is near death. If CPR is called off then the person is certified dead. Until then they are not dead. Having no cardiac output is still not death until it is certified. If CPR succeeds and they get back cardiac output then they never died in the first place. I am a doctor. I know what I am talking about. To certify someone dead you need irreversible cessation of cardiac output, respiration, pupil reflexes, and for this to be sustained for over 5 minutes at an absolute minimum. If it was reversible, then it was not death.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?
No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.
Actually, it is a form of death per modern medicine. It's what's referred to as "medically dead" and CPR revives from medical death.
No it is not death. It is near death. If CPR is called off then the person is certified dead. Until then they are not dead. Having no cardiac output is still not death until it is certified. If CPR succeeds and they get back cardiac output then they never died in the first place. I am a doctor. I know what I am talking about.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?
No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.
Actually, it is a form of death per modern medicine. It's what's referred to as "medically dead" and CPR revives from medical death.
No it is not death. It is near death. If CPR is called off then the person is certified dead. Until then they are not dead. Having no cardiac output is still not death until it is certified. If CPR succeeds and they get back cardiac output then they never died in the first place. I am a doctor. I know what I am talking about.
No it doesn't. Legal death is the same. IRREVERSIBLE is the key point. If someone was resuscitated, they never died period. Or are you seriously arguing that anyone that goes for cardiothoracic surgery is killed because they "die" because their breathing and heartbeat is stopped?
warl0rdb0b wrote: Has anyone seen anything on Orkimedes? I've just been sent a fairly convincing image of him for the Armageddon release.
It's AI. You can tell because unlike how GW uses clear, repeated iconography and design elements across a faction it has bits that are just weird melted shapes.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Dunno, a steady, measured advance with fortifications left in your wake sounds pretty solid.
Time consuming? Yes. But when you’re Immortal? What does time matter to you.
And how does he plan to garrison them as he moves forward? Or is he going to leave them with understrength garrisons or even empty? His mortal forces are not infinite. Realspace fortifications and weaponry will also require maintenance and ammunition, while troops will need food. How is he going to keep them all supplied (especially if he turns each world into a wasteland of fortifications)? The demands on his forces and logistical train will grow and grow. While he might strip mine worlds initially to raise his fortifications, not sure how he will keep them sustainable in the long run.
If you care about logistics, maintenance, and numerical consistency, you’ve chosen the wrong setting. Games Workshop, both past and present, has always been terrible at handling these. Even on the rare occasions when authors tried to address it, they still failed spectacularly.
According to Codex Armageddon itself, the Second War for Armageddon mobilized fewer soldiers (from both sides !) than WW2 ... or WW1 ... or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1905
Iron Warriors are cool because they look cool, have a cool warcry and they like big guns and forfitications. The rest doesn't matter.
Seriously I think Ghaz is just treating it like having a playdate now.
It would be funny if that is how he's treating it, unaware in the way Orks are of the frailty and aging of humans
I guess this time it's Deus Ex Wolf Machina for how Yarrick survived.
But yeah, there's precedence for Ghazzy not delivering the killing blow and wanting more of a challenge, so I think he's trying to milk Yarrick for what he's worth by not killing him.
Thrakka has explained why he does that in universe: "Orks need strong opponents to grow, and strong opponents are hard to come by."
He has learned more from waging war against Yarrik than from any other of his other wars, and he plans to continue doing so.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Dunno, a steady, measured advance with fortifications left in your wake sounds pretty solid.
Time consuming? Yes. But when you’re Immortal? What does time matter to you.
And how does he plan to garrison them as he moves forward? Or is he going to leave them with understrength garrisons or even empty? His mortal forces are not infinite. Realspace fortifications and weaponry will also require maintenance and ammunition, while troops will need food. How is he going to keep them all supplied (especially if he turns each world into a wasteland of fortifications)? The demands on his forces and logistical train will grow and grow. While he might strip mine worlds initially to raise his fortifications, not sure how he will keep them sustainable in the long run.
If you care about logistics, maintenance, and numerical consistency, you’ve chosen the wrong setting. Games Workshop, both past and present, has always been terrible at handling these. Even on the rare occasions when authors tried to address it, they still failed spectacularly.
According to Codex Armageddon itself, the Second War for Armageddon mobilized fewer soldiers (from both sides !) than WW2 ... or WW1 ... or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1905
Iron Warriors are cool because they look cool, have a cool warcry, like big guns and forfitications. The rest doesn't matter.
If any of the Chaos Primarchs would care about logistics it would be Perturabo given the account of how he handled the Siege of Terra. He was the one that basically wanted to fight a conventional Legion vs Legion war and tracked all aspects of the logistics, sneering how the other Legions were becoming lost to daemons and warp magic. Yes, he was doing it out of ego, to show himself better than Dorn and everyone else, but it was also the reason why he ragequit when he was replaced as the leader of the siege by Mortarion who was already far gone to Nurgle by then.
Even if he is now a Daemon Prince and reliant on having some warpspace/realspace overlap in order to manifest, I think his and his Legion's attitude towards the warp means he is not going to be just hand waving everything with warp magic.
According to Codex Armageddon itself, the Second War for Armageddon mobilized fewer soldiers (from both sides !) than WW2 ... or WW1 ... or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1905
Do you have a quote and citation? I thought firm numbers were never actually given, with GW using the copout of any in-universe listing saying it was just 1 page of a larger listing of forces.
Seriously I think Ghaz is just treating it like having a playdate now.
It would be funny if that is how he's treating it, unaware in the way Orks are of the frailty and aging of humans
I guess this time it's Deus Ex Wolf Machina for how Yarrick survived.
But yeah, there's precedence for Ghazzy not delivering the killing blow and wanting more of a challenge, so I think he's trying to milk Yarrick for what he's worth by not killing him.
Thrakka has explained why he does that in universe: "Orks need strong opponents to grow, and strong opponents are hard to come by."
He has learned more from waging war against Yarrik than from any other of his other wars, and he plans to continue doing so.
He nearly turned Yarrick into a smash patty though, so it's clear he doesn't feel like he needs Yarrick anymore. Now others may learn from him, but Ghaz isn't doing what he did previously where he captures Yarrick and then sends him off to go fortify Armagheddon again. He's discarding the Old Man.
Yarrick seriously wounded him. I don't think Ghaz crushed him as a completely rational decision.... assuming Ghaz ever makes completely rational decisions.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Dunno, a steady, measured advance with fortifications left in your wake sounds pretty solid.
Time consuming? Yes. But when you’re Immortal? What does time matter to you.
And how does he plan to garrison them as he moves forward? Or is he going to leave them with understrength garrisons or even empty? His mortal forces are not infinite. Realspace fortifications and weaponry will also require maintenance and ammunition, while troops will need food. How is he going to keep them all supplied (especially if he turns each world into a wasteland of fortifications)? The demands on his forces and logistical train will grow and grow. While he might strip mine worlds initially to raise his fortifications, not sure how he will keep them sustainable in the long run.
If you care about logistics, maintenance, and numerical consistency, you’ve chosen the wrong setting. Games Workshop, both past and present, has always been terrible at handling these. Even on the rare occasions when authors tried to address it, they still failed spectacularly.
According to Codex Armageddon itself, the Second War for Armageddon mobilized fewer soldiers (from both sides !) than WW2 ... or WW1 ... or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1905
Iron Warriors are cool because they look cool, have a cool warcry, like big guns and forfitications. The rest doesn't matter.
If any of the Chaos Primarchs would care about logistics it would be Perturabo given the account of how he handled the Siege of Terra. He was the one that basically wanted to fight a conventional Legion vs Legion war and tracked all aspects of the logistics, sneering how the other Legions were becoming lost to daemons and warp magic. Yes, he was doing it out of ego, to show himself better than Dorn and everyone else, but it was also the reason why he ragequit when he was replaced as the leader of the siege by Mortarion who was already far gone to Nurgle by then.
Even if he is now a Daemon Prince and reliant on having some warpspace/realspace overlap in order to manifest, I think his and his Legion's attitude towards the warp means he is not going to be just hand waving everything with warp magic.
I fully agree with you, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about how GW writes their articles and codices. Details are nowadays only found in their novels and even then authors avoid dwelling too much on numbers.
I mentioned earlier that when it comes to Chaos, success attracts followers? Having wandered up the shops and back for some well deserved beers, I pondered what was an accurate but boring response a bit further.
Yeah, garrisoning the worlds as he goes is no mean feat. And will need replenishing. But? As well as success attracting followers? This plan is also providing something Chaos typically lacks in realspace. Established, reliable, staging points.
So whilst not everyone will fall under his flag? He’s still providing a much required resource. Somewhere along the way to drop off and trade your ill gotten gains in exchange for refuel, rearm and that.
That I think is how he’ll continue to garrison them. Mutual self interest for once. A resource that currently, no other major Chaos player offers.
LunarSol wrote: Yarrick seriously wounded him. I don't think Ghaz crushed him as a completely rational decision.... assuming Ghaz ever makes completely rational decisions.
Stabbing an Ork in the gut isn't that serious of a wound to their bodies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SamusDrake wrote: After the likes of Damuramu and Darth Maul returning from the dead, Yarrick honestly seems plausable enough.
At this point I wouldn't be shocked if we find out that he is kept in a stasis field between Ork invasions just to keep him around longer.
LunarSol wrote: That's not to say they got it perfect. There are lots of weapons that just didn't work out. Assault Cannons clearly being built around a version of Oath that stopped existing for example. Flamers just don't reliably have enough volume of fire to make up for the weak base stats. It's far from perfect, but also not remotely the same to what was wrong with PL.
Actually, it is much closer to the same than not. And it will always be. Multi-lasers are still statted like they are 15 points cheaper than a lascannon. Heavy bolters too, and countless, countless other guns.
The issue with making wargear free is that anti-tank/anti-elite guns are inherently far more valuable than anti-horde guns. You can't design your way out of that pit without wargear points. GW tries, like by giving chainswords on characters extra attacks (which is nonsensical, I'd add - a power sword is no less swift and agile a weapon than a chainsword, it's arguably more so in fact) and yet the chainsword falls behind anyway because of course it does, it's a chainsword, it was never intended to be the equal of power fists and thunder hammers and trying to force it to be is trying to force a cube into a round hole.
The only way to make people take a laspistol instead of a plasma pistol (other than a points difference) is to give the former absurd stats it has no business having. And if you apply that across the game, you create a whole array of megabuffed monstrous anti-infantry guns that make horde playstyles utterly futile to even consider.
PL and its 10th edition derivative masquerading as "points" never belonged in 40k. It's okay in AoS since they had it from the start. That is not ever changing.
GW has already tried to make close combat a flat value no matter weapons. AoS is doing it all the time now and Tyranid Warriors are doing it too
So on that score we could see GW making ranged kits for 40K with loads of different weapons and just a "ranged weapon" stat profile Instead of one per weapon type.
Given the huge number of units now present on the battlefield, with a few rare exceptions, taking a plasma pistol instead of a laspistol has no impact on the course of a game. This made sense when a 1000 points army was made up of fewer than 30 regular CSM, a Dreadnought, and a Chaos Lord (I still have my old Codex City Fight and this is what a 1000 CSM used to be) : every single loss was felt.
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