The reveal is literally Belial, the Companions, and the upgrade frame...which Lewis had mentioned already during the last stream.
It's an updated iconic character, a completely new unit, a quite large upgrade set, an army box, and the codex reveal. Alongside a video for it.
I wonder just what you consider a big reveal if somehow that isn't much to you.
I would have considered an Old World army box as a "huge reveal"...even if they had already been leaked.
I would have considered an announcement of Solar Auxilia a "huge reveal".
I would have considered a reveal of something Kroot as "huge".
I would have considered a reveal of either of the Order/Death Warbands for Warcry to be "huge".
There's a ton of things I would have considered "huge".
I do not consider an army set, featuring a single new unit, a resculpted character and an upgrade set mentioned before on stream, and a unit we already had seen(the Deathwing Knights) along with an army book with recycled artwork that is known to be the next codex coming to be "huge".
As a reminder, this is what the Sunday Preview said:
We’re off to hang our stockings and finish all of our last-minute preparations, but you won’t be without articles to read on Warhammer Community in the gap between Christmas and New Year. Tune in tomorrow for a huge reveal, followed by something special on Boxing Day. Throughout the week, there will be teases for what’s coming in 2024, as well as the result of this year’s Miniature of the Year vote.
YMMV, but "army set for a space marine faction that's the next codex to come" isn't "huge reveal" material to me.
I also don't really consider it "huge" (maybe they switched this with the Old World boxsets since DA leaked that morning? But then again the TK box also leaked a while ago)
But if you consider a singe Warcry warband "huge" then you can't say a resculped character, a completely new unit, a great upgrade sprue and an army set (with not only a new unit but also that resculpted character and two of the new upgrade sprues) isn't "huge". Just because they aren't interesting to you doesn't mean three new kits and an army set aren't objectively more than a single warcry warband.
As I said personally I would have expected the TOW boxsets when they talked about huge (since that is realistically the only other reveal we should be expecting) but I wouldn't say its outride wrong for them to call this huge.
Exaggerated? yes but that should be expected at this point. Wrong? not really.
I also don't really consider it "huge" (maybe they switched this with the Old World boxsets since DA leaked that morning? But then again the TK box also leaked a while ago)
But if you consider a singe Warcry warband "huge" then you can't say a resculped character, a completely new unit, a great upgrade sprue and an army set (with not only a new unit but also that resculpted character and two of the new upgrade sprues) isn't "huge". Just because they aren't interesting to you doesn't mean three new kits and an army set aren't objectively more than a single warcry warband.
Considering that we're months behind on Warcry? Yeah. It's "huge" to get the reveal of the Death and Order warbands. They were slated for winter 2023.
You lot can keep pretending that it's something super amazing, but the only thing genuinely a surprise is the Companions. The upgrade sprue, army set, and Belial all were mentioned by the new intern on the championship stream. We've had a roadmap with DA coming at the start of 2024 since before that.
As I said personally I would have expected the TOW boxsets when they talked about huge (since that is realistically the only other reveal we should be expecting) but I wouldn't say its outride wrong for them to call this huge.
Exaggerated? yes but that should be expected at this point. Wrong? not really.
It's marines. They were getting an army set, especially since they didn't do Terminators in the Christmas box.
Showing an Ork would have been "huge". Showing something from the Custodes, Tau, or CSM would have been "huge".
This just felt like a continuation of what the dumb championship stream was.
Your mistake was believing GW when they said it was huge.
They've overhyped gaking preview streams where they showed off a few paltry models and pretended like it was the greatest revelation since Revelations.
Kanluwen wrote: Considering that we're months behind on Warcry? Yeah. It's "huge" to get the reveal of the Death and Order warbands. They were slated for winter 2023.
They aren't slated for winter 2023, just winter which is from December until March so we are perfectly in line of the roadmap? No idea where we are behind on that one.
Kill Team on the other hand is behind since we are just getting Salvations which was originally on Autumn on the roadmap.
The AoS roadmap is also slightly behind since that one actually said "2023 only" and we haven't gotten Dawnbringers 4 yet.
Those two are the only ones who seem to have actual delays currently.
I also don't really consider it "huge" (maybe they switched this with the Old World boxsets since DA leaked that morning? But then again the TK box also leaked a while ago)
But if you consider a singe Warcry warband "huge" then you can't say a resculped character, a completely new unit, a great upgrade sprue and an army set (with not only a new unit but also that resculpted character and two of the new upgrade sprues) isn't "huge". Just because they aren't interesting to you doesn't mean three new kits and an army set aren't objectively more than a single warcry warband.
Considering that we're months behind on Warcry? Yeah. It's "huge" to get the reveal of the Death and Order warbands. They were slated for winter 2023.
You lot can keep pretending that it's something super amazing, but the only thing genuinely a surprise is the Companions. The upgrade sprue, army set, and Belial all were mentioned by the new intern on the championship stream. We've had a roadmap with DA coming at the start of 2024 since before that.
As I said personally I would have expected the TOW boxsets when they talked about huge (since that is realistically the only other reveal we should be expecting) but I wouldn't say its outride wrong for them to call this huge.
Exaggerated? yes but that should be expected at this point. Wrong? not really.
It's marines. They were getting an army set, especially since they didn't do Terminators in the Christmas box.
Showing an Ork would have been "huge". Showing something from the Custodes, Tau, or CSM would have been "huge".
This just felt like a continuation of what the dumb championship stream was.
You seem to be using "huge" when you mean "surprise" then getting mad that the reveal didn't match your expectations.
Yeah, people arguing vociferously about the bigness or otherwise of the latest reveal is tedious,
The Companions look very good, although DA robes always look a bit like dressing gowns. Since most of the armour is covered, they would be easy to convert into Heresy-era Companions.
First thought Votann but with them not on the roadmap probably something else? That spear kinda looks like a Custodes guardian spear and they are next after orks so maybe that? Also has a gun Grip on the spear so very likely a guardian spear.
Kroot
Orks?
Custodes, Orks and Tau are also the next three codexes on the roadmap so fits perfectly. Custodes and Orks probably just a single mini with Tau getting multiple kroot and an army set
Overread wrote: Are Kroot about the last thing in current 40K that hasn't seen any update in a big way? Even Squats are back so yeah time for the Year of the Kroot!
Depends what you mean by "update in a big way". Yes, Kroot are still using the same plastic kit when they had when they were released in 3rd Ed.
Then again, Eldar are still using the only Warp Spider minis that have ever been released, and have vehicle kits older than most of the people who post here.
Overread wrote: Are Kroot about the last thing in current 40K that hasn't seen any update in a big way? Even Squats are back so yeah time for the Year of the Kroot!
Depends what you mean by "update in a big way". Yes, Kroot are still using the same plastic kit when they had when they were released in 3rd Ed.
Then again, Eldar are still using the only Warp Spider minis that have ever been released, and have vehicle kits older than most of the people who post here.
True but Eldar have seen some big updates as of late.
Though yes there are Eldar models still older than the Kroot and Tau
The kroot looks like he has an old spyglass and a longrifle, so its probably the kind of mobile sniperteam that GW really like to make these days.
Probably has little to no viability in most games.
The new kroot mount doesn't seem to have the kroot-style beak that literally all kroot 'animal' form have. I think it might actually be a kroot riding a non-kroot creature, which is weird.
EDIT: also a distinct lack of quills on the mount.
Perfect Organism wrote: The new kroot mount doesn't seem to have the kroot-style beak that literally all kroot 'animal' form have. I think it might actually be a kroot riding a non-kroot creature, which is weird.
EDIT: also a distinct lack of quills on the mount.
I fully agree, I 100% believe whatever that Kroot is riding isnt in the krootis species. Knarloc, Kroot and Kroothounds all have tale tail signifiers, like evolutionary dead-ends that dont change regardless of sub-species they devolve into. Overbite beak, quills, short stumpy tail. Whatever this mount is, it aint Kroot! We have the rumour engine for its tail and its pretty much like a Kroxigors with boney protrusions and hardened scales, its also really lithe and long. It looks agile whereas Knarlocs are very stocky and sturdy! All muscle and thighs.
Could it be Krootis? probably I dunno. It has sensory whiskers under its bottom jaw and the sides of its head but they arent quills, then its got a heavy brow like an Aggradon. What I think GW has done has given them some exotic Xenos lizard mount to really make the Kroot and Tau look even more alien though I wish they did that for the Tarellians and kept the Kroot purely within their own species to really sell how utterly weird Kroot are with their sub-species.
I dont think its Nazdreg, for starters that Bosspole would be plastered in any Clan glyph and it isnt, if it were badmoons you wouldnt miss the icon thats for sure.. Nazdreg is also in Mega-armour which this Mek isnt in. More like a kind of exo-suit, he has a bionik left foot, the same powerklaw the Megamek has, a Traktor Kannon (Nazdreg has a gatling blasta) and some form of shokkjump whirlygig on his back which could either be the techno gubbins for the traktor or a personal teleporta (in the same fashion of the new Overlord, letting the leader port a squad about with him).
Infact I dont think this is a named character at all, it looks very Clan agnostic, I cant see a symbol insight. His Bosspole is just a sawblade and a 3 headed spanner. Probably could be a named character but it doesnt scream to me any of the Meks we have in the lore. Aint Mogrok (he created the Tellyporta Blasta), doesnt fit Orkimedes. Reckon its either a completely new named BadMek (exiled) or a generic Mekboss.
Didn't we recently have rumors about a big kroot refresh/expansion coming with the next tau codex that mentioned mounted kroot/cavalry kroot or whatever? Bit of a confirmation of that rumors veracity?
chaos0xomega wrote: Didn't we recently have rumors about a big kroot refresh/expansion coming with the next tau codex that mentioned mounted kroot/cavalry kroot or whatever? Bit of a confirmation of that rumors veracity?
Yes but people don't like it when Valrak is right.
chaos0xomega wrote: Didn't we recently have rumors about a big kroot refresh/expansion coming with the next tau codex that mentioned mounted kroot/cavalry kroot or whatever? Bit of a confirmation of that rumors veracity?
Yes but people don't like it when Valrak is right.
Or maybe people don't like it when Valrak is given credit for rumors/speculation done years in advance of him "reporting" on it.
chaos0xomega wrote: Didn't we recently have rumors about a big kroot refresh/expansion coming with the next tau codex that mentioned mounted kroot/cavalry kroot or whatever? Bit of a confirmation of that rumors veracity?
Yes but people don't like it when Valrak is right.
Or maybe people don't like it when Valrak is given credit for rumors/speculation done years in advance of him "reporting" on it.
Nah, it's definitely the former. I saw people claiming his Lion rumours were obvious and that anyone could have guessed it.
chaos0xomega wrote: Didn't we recently have rumors about a big kroot refresh/expansion coming with the next tau codex that mentioned mounted kroot/cavalry kroot or whatever? Bit of a confirmation of that rumors veracity?
Yes but people don't like it when Valrak is right.
Or maybe people don't like it when Valrak is given credit for rumors/speculation done years in advance of him "reporting" on it.
Ah, the top brazz Tau realized they need to keep a tighter leash on kroot and have them work with an other species that report directly to the blue guys.
For the greater good ofcourse.
This might be a bit out there, but the kroot's mount looks like a vaguely reptilian quadruped, with heavy 'crocodile' style scales on the torso and tail, and a head that seems kind of 'boxy'.
Doesn't that fit the description of a grox pretty well? We've seen a lot of 'old school' creatures like the ambull and gyrinx returning over the last few years. Wouldn't be that strange to have a frequently-mentioned but no longer seen xeno-critter return.
Gonna go out on a limb here and say every single model shown there is a named character. Apart from Leviathan, they only showed named characters as part of GW's "watershed year".
I agree Nazdreg seems like a good bet for the Ork, that gun looks very Kustom Blasta X in appearance. That Kroot is a brand new character if this is the case.
Grimtuff wrote: Gonna go out on a limb here and say every single model shown there is a named character. Apart from Leviathan, they only showed named characters as part of GW's "watershed year".
I agree Nazdreg seems like a good bet for the Ork, that gun looks very Kustom Blasta X in appearance. That Kroot is a brand new character if this is the case.
Whoever that Ork is, it seems like a very scrawny body in some sort of exoskeleton or frame that's distinct from a Mega Armour. You can see support pistons under the arms, and the feet have some sort of bracing behind them, while the actual "pilot's" feet are somewhere on the shin of the exo-skeleton.On the right side of the picture, you can sort-of imagine an ork arm holding some sort of control device, while the larger gun-arm is just part of the suit. I.e. it's another "baby carrier".
Grimtuff wrote: Gonna go out on a limb here and say every single model shown there is a named character. Apart from Leviathan, they only showed named characters as part of GW's "watershed year".
I agree Nazdreg seems like a good bet for the Ork, that gun looks very Kustom Blasta X in appearance. That Kroot is a brand new character if this is the case.
Whoever that Ork is, it seems like a very scrawny body in some sort of exoskeleton or frame that's distinct from a Mega Armour. You can see support pistons under the arms, and the feet have some sort of bracing behind them, while the actual "pilot's" feet are somewhere on the shin of the exo-skeleton.On the right side of the picture, you can sort-of imagine an ork arm holding some sort of control device, while the larger gun-arm is just part of the suit. I.e. it's another "baby carrier".
I thought that too. The only reason I can see them modding Nazdreg to either be out of Mega Armour, is Ghazza is *the* character in Mega Armour (something I disagree with the notion of, but I'm trying to rationalise a speculated thought process here), and Nazza is now no longer in MA, or his entire body is bionic. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of scale on the model, as there doesn't appear to be any obvious skulls and the like to easily gauge how big it is, but the base is lacking the typical scenic base treatment that GW gives big characters, so that's another point against it being Nazdreg.
So a Winged Hussar custode, and a Kroot riding what looks to be a modernized version of the old dark elf cold ones.
As for the roadmap, I think the fact that Tau are coming in probably around 3-6 months time per the same roadmap probably limits the likelihood of this being related to a forthcoming standalone kroot mercs book.
I saw the Orky profile and thought it looked a bit like the Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun, but then I remembered that the BMWSAG is a relatively recent model so it's unlikely to be that. Maybe it's a Big Mek with some other kind of wacky Orky weapon and not a named character at all?
Grimtuff wrote: Gonna go out on a limb here and say every single model shown there is a named character. Apart from Leviathan, they only showed named characters as part of GW's "watershed year".
I agree Nazdreg seems like a good bet for the Ork, that gun looks very Kustom Blasta X in appearance. That Kroot is a brand new character if this is the case.
Whoever that Ork is, it seems like a very scrawny body in some sort of exoskeleton or frame that's distinct from a Mega Armour. You can see support pistons under the arms, and the feet have some sort of bracing behind them, while the actual "pilot's" feet are somewhere on the shin of the exo-skeleton.On the right side of the picture, you can sort-of imagine an ork arm holding some sort of control device, while the larger gun-arm is just part of the suit. I.e. it's another "baby carrier".
I thought that too. The only reason I can see them modding Nazdreg to either be out of Mega Armour, is Ghazza is *the* character in Mega Armour (something I disagree with the notion of, but I'm trying to rationalise a speculated thought process here), and Nazza is now no longer in MA, or his entire body is bionic. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of scale on the model, as there doesn't appear to be any obvious skulls and the like to easily gauge how big it is, but the base is lacking the typical scenic base treatment that GW gives big characters, so that's another point against it being Nazdreg.
I dont think we are getting Nazdreg back at all, like for a long time or ever if im honest, the way they wrote him off in Arks of Omen to me feel like an offscreen death, "go over there and never come back, remain a mystery" kind of deal. Then the model just doesnt give off Nazdreg vibes, we can make out that he has some sort of maks on, we can see his ears and then what look to be goggles and a box around his mouth with screws in, which is probably some sort of vox-grill / talkin' speaker. No Badmoon Warlord worth his teef is gonna hide his gob! Naz is also fat as hell, this Ork looks pretty normal to me and again we cant see a single clan glyph.
Its most definetly a Mekboss (which Nazdreg aint) in a fancy meka-suit that has a traktor kannon and some kind of personal tellyporting device. Whether or not he is named or not is the real question, and im leaning towards him not being unique.
I just read the 'background' on the new Green Marine Not-Bladeguard.
So a bunch of unknown dudes in black armour appeared from who-knows-where, and the famously suspicious and untrusting Chapter just said 'yup. Inner Circle for you'.
Lord Damocles wrote: I just read the 'background' on the new Green Marine Not-Bladeguard.
So a bunch of unknown dudes in black armour appeared from who-knows-where, and the famously suspicious and untrusting Chapter just said 'yup. Inner Circle for you'.
Lord Damocles wrote: I just read the 'background' on the new Green Marine Not-Bladeguard.
So a bunch of unknown dudes in black armour appeared from who-knows-where, and the famously suspicious and untrusting Chapter just said 'yup. Inner Circle for you'.
Riiight.
Because Lion literally rounded up the Fallen and made them the new Inner Inner Circle rather than trust the Dark Angels.
Lord Damocles wrote: I just read the 'background' on the new Green Marine Not-Bladeguard.
So a bunch of unknown dudes in black armour appeared from who-knows-where, and the famously suspicious and untrusting Chapter just said 'yup. Inner Circle for you'.
Riiight.
Because Lion literally rounded up the Fallen and made them the new Inner Inner Circle rather than trust the Dark Angels.
That was my guess as to what happened. The Fallen are now The Forgiven?
It doesn't entirely make sense though, does it. You have the modern Dark Angels who are supposedly loyalists and were led by the supposedly loyal Lion'El Johnson, who destroyed the supposedly traitor-held Caliban led by Luther, and then spent 10,000 years hunting down The Fallen who were Luthers followers. Now Lion is back and he takes the supposed traitors who were Luthers followers and thus theoretically his enemy way back when in under his wing as his bodyguard?
Speaking of which, has Cypher featured in any of the recent lore now that the Lion has returned?
The Lion’s return lead him to meet up with a bunch of “Fallen”. In conversation with one who’d tried to kill him, it becomes apparent not all the Dark Angels present on Caliban knew the truth of Luther’s betrayal.
They fought because they were told The Lion had turned on them. Not because they were anything like True Believers.
It’s then established The Lion can apparently see the truth of them, and tell a dupe from an actual traitor. The actual traitors, y’know, get all killed to death.
Those who were mislead by Luther, but remain truly loyal? Those The Lion christened as “The Risen”
The Inner Circle Companions are very likely members of The Risen. But we need to await the new Codex before we can know for sure.
The Lion’s return lead him to meet up with a bunch of “Fallen”. In conversation with one who’d tried to kill him, it becomes apparent not all the Dark Angels present on Caliban knew the truth of Luther’s betrayal.
They fought because they were told The Lion had turned on them. Not because they were anything like True Believers.
It’s then established The Lion can apparently see the truth of them, and tell a dupe from an actual traitor. The actual traitors, y’know, get all killed to death.
Those who were mislead by Luther, but remain truly loyal? Those The Lion christened as “The Risen”
The Inner Circle Companions are very likely members of The Risen. But we need to await the new Codex before we can know for sure.
I don't care what anybody else says. adding yet another circle within a circle for no good reason - again casting doubt on their loyality - is peak Dark Angels, you have to give that to the GW writers.
I know it was mostly a gakky meme that wasn't much supported by actual fluff, but I kinda liked the idea that there was more complexity to the Luther vs Lion thing and that Luther was actually a loyalist and Lion was maybe not a traitor but not quite loyal either. It gave the chapter a bit more intrigue and depth. The "revelation" that Lion was loyal the whole time and some of the chapter went traitor and had to be dealt with is pretty lame.
Also makes no sense as a secret shame - the Horus Heresy fluff has made it pretty clear that there were elements of basically all the loyal legions that turned traitor, some in quite significant numbers (a significant portion of the White Scars, supposedly an entire great company of Space Wolves, the majority of the Raven Guards terminators come to mind) and that it wasn't a particularly big secret nor much of a surprise to anyone when it happened (beyond, yknow, the initial shock of the Heresy happening at all). Yet its only the Dark Angels who feel the need to go to borderline-treasonous lengths to try to conceal it because reasons.
Right. Regardless of what happened on Caliban, the chief issue is that the DA spent 10.000 years putting their own drama ahead of the interests of humanity and the Imperium and Lion will not have any of that stupid gak.
Also makes no sense as a secret shame - the Horus Heresy fluff has made it pretty clear that there were elements of basically all the loyal legions that turned traitor, some in quite significant numbers (a significant portion of the White Scars, supposedly an entire great company of Space Wolves, the majority of the Raven Guards terminators come to mind) and that it wasn't a particularly big secret nor much of a surprise to anyone when it happened (beyond, yknow, the initial shock of the Heresy happening at all). Yet its only the Dark Angels who feel the need to go to borderline-treasonous lengths to try to conceal it because reasons.
Made more sense before the mess that is the Heresy Series. Even if every legion having their mix of traitors and loyalists makes more sense ultimately.
Well, its not just black library that has established that, its also the Horus Heresy game series which over the course of the however many black books discussed that the lines were not as clear cut as the legacy fluff of "9 legions turned against the emperor, 9 stayed loyal" made it out to be.
There were a number of marines from traitor chapters that stayed loyal. Heck, half the OG founding crew of the Grey Knights were Loyalist marines from traitor chapters. The Blood Angels are almost definitely 1000 Sons successes.
People always bring up the WS traitors but it's really nothing like the DA. 1. Jaghatai and his legion weren't particularly loyal whilst the Lion and his were. 2. Self image. The WS are the 5th and alwasy feel like/are seen as outsiders whereas the DA are the 1st and paragons of the Legionoes Astartes. 3. The WS traitors wanted to get Jaghatai alone and convince him they should side with Horus. He said no and the traitors basically submitted to his judgement. Luther wanted to sucede from the Imperium and dueled the Lion using chaos sorcery. 4. More DA went "traitor" and they controlled the homeworld. 5. Luthers treachery happened after the Heresy and no one wants to get scoured.
Also makes no sense as a secret shame - the Horus Heresy fluff has made it pretty clear that there were elements of basically all the loyal legions that turned traitor, some in quite significant numbers (a significant portion of the White Scars, supposedly an entire great company of Space Wolves, the majority of the Raven Guards terminators come to mind) and that it wasn't a particularly big secret nor much of a surprise to anyone when it happened (beyond, yknow, the initial shock of the Heresy happening at all). Yet its only the Dark Angels who feel the need to go to borderline-treasonous lengths to try to conceal it because reasons.
Made more sense before the mess that is the Heresy Series. Even if every legion having their mix of traitors and loyalists makes more sense ultimately.
I actually think it makes more sense now. At least for my understanding of the heresy.
I'll preface by saying I haven't read any of it, but:
The Lion basically went around mercing traitor home worlds, making sure they were atomized / glassed and unable to supply further heretical recruits. Kind of a "Burn their homes down while they're at war" approach to ensure that, even if they won the victory, they'd have nothing back to go back to / no way to further reinforce.
This is critical becomes when he went home.. He found that his own home world had turned traitor.
This, to the DA's eyes, makes them on par with the traitors. How can they be sure they were loyal of their home world was another corrupted hell-pit of traitors? How could anyone trust them if they showed up AFTER the siege was won, said they'd been loyal the whole time, but then turned around and went back to a house full of traitors?
The concealment was, IMO, because they originally thought no one would believe they were loyal if they knew the truth. Sure all of the other loyalist legions had some marines go rogue, but no one else had their homeworld turn on them. Especially not when they actually didn't even participate in most of the actual war. So the hunt for the fallen is as much about hiding the secret as it is about cleansing the traitors who should've been the most loyal, their very hearth guard.
Meh, I remain unconvinced. "We paid the price to clean up our own mess" should've been enough to clear their own name. The imperium hadn't yet descended into the levels of absurd paranoia that is 40k, and the loyalists couldn't afford to purge another legion with the Scouring on going. Besides, as the Lipn was believed dead by the other loyslists after the destruction of Caliban, there was less concern of him leading the legion into Heresy as the others did. The DA would have been easily controlled.
The thing about paranoia is that it isn't rational. The thing about secrets is the longer you hold it, the higher the fear of the consequences of revelation. The Dark Angels probably thought they would quickly clean up the traitors and then reveal the problem as "all solved". 10K years later, they still haven't cleaned up the traitors and are more paranoid and secretive than ever.
And should I add that prior to the return of the Primarchs, the High Lords of Terra would definitely have sent the entire legion on an penitent's crusade into the Eye of Terra if they learned the truth about what the Dark Angels had been up to for the last several thousands of years?
It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.
No matter how you spin it, the retcon stink won't go away. It just screams contrivance.
considered traitors by the dark angels but hasn't there always been an element of you can't quit trust that the dark angels are telling/know the truth and fallen might be more then they seem? at least that's the sense that I got all the way back in 3rd edition.
the point is that no one outside the inner circle know that there are former DA hunted down
only the 2 companies and the command of the chapter knows that they are hunting down the fallen, and with not even the members of other companies from that chapter know about it, no one in the imperium should know
hence why the DA are considered not trustworthy by some as the Inquisition knows that they are hiding something and start acting wired (for outsiders) from time to time (like leaving a battle to chase a single marine) but don't know why or what exactly is driving them
so for the chapter itself, having a bodyguard of strangers is not more unusual than everything else the inner circle is doing
but the inner circle itself would go rouge if the Fallen are now considered loyal and having a higher rank than everyone else
same as the Lion telling them prevented the uprising on Caliban in the first place?
Hunting down certain individuals for 10k years and now your Primarch is coming back telling you that you were wrong and those you hunted were actually the loyal ones?
Either GW is setting up a future conflict within the DA, or the Inner Circle are the true traitors, Cypher was actually the Loyalist knowing about them, and the DA are now hunting down the fromer Inner Circle as "true" Fallen
kodos wrote: same as the Lion telling them prevented the uprising on Caliban in the first place?
It was 30k era DA. 40k ones are basically worshipping Lion. Also, it would not be telling them that all Fallen are now good, only the misguided by Luther. There are still real traitors to hunt down among old Legion.
Dark Angels Chaplains get those black pearls for making Fallen "repent" so the Lion could just say that their service is a term of their repentance. And the fluff doesn't seem to have the chosen as a higher level of the inner circle, but a group of watchers and protectors.
Hellebore wrote: It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.
Some of the Fallen weren't active traitors, but misled by those in charge. Not every Fallen seems to be getting the opportunity to become Risen - and we don't have any idea what proportion are just getting dead'd, and who are getting Forgiven - and as far as I recall it was said as far back as the original Angels of Death codex that a good chunk in the Fallen were misled by Luther et al into believing that the Lion was the traitor, not Luther.
I wouldn't describe this as a retcon, but another progression of the storyline. Whether that's a good thing or not is, of course, going to be down to the individual.
Hellebore wrote: It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.
No matter how you spin it, the retcon stink won't go away. It just screams contrivance.
They WERE traitors, but for whatever reason the Lion deemed them worthy of redemption. Bit of a difference there.
Hellebore wrote: It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.
Some of the Fallen weren't active traitors, but misled by those in charge. Not every Fallen seems to be getting the opportunity to become Risen - and we don't have any idea what proportion are just getting dead'd, and who are getting Forgiven - and as far as I recall it was said as far back as the original Angels of Death codex that a good chunk in the Fallen were misled by Luther et al into believing that the Lion was the traitor, not Luther.
I wouldn't describe this as a retcon, but another progression of the storyline. Whether that's a good thing or not is, of course, going to be down to the individual.
The HH has plenty of examples of marines being censured and executed by association for far less than aiding chaos in commandeering their Homeworld...
I'm just baffled that the fluff blurb in the article makes it out like the Companions are some mute weirdos who stalk people and their victims are somehow super chill about it. I hope that's just the article being brief and casual.
Hellebore wrote: It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.
No matter how you spin it, the retcon stink won't go away. It just screams contrivance.
They WERE traitors, but for whatever reason the Lion deemed them worthy of redemption. Bit of a difference there.
Because we all know how flip floppy siding with chaos is especially by accident, and how it's just a whoopsy and you're cured of any chaotic taint.
It's not like fighting AGAINST chaos gets you painted with the purge me sign or anything. Definitely can see how actively aiding chaos in fighting the imperium in no way shows a flawed character or dangerous vulnerability that no one would risk ignoring.
Nope, space marines all just accidented their way into a chaos fueled civil war and they're all really pure and noble and once you care bear stare into their hearts the whoopsy just goes away...
If only the other primarchs had deployed their care bear stares during the scouring all those accident prone noble astartes could have all been risen too, maybe they could have saved those naive poor primarchs that got boohoo confused by nasty chaos.
Secret character defining shame? Come now you're being too hard on yourself poor fragile warrior. Let go of your whoopsies and become the superbestest can't ever do any wrong warriors who completely undermine the tragedy and consequences of a civil war we just spent 20 years lathering pathos on with a spatula.
Hellebore wrote: It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.
No matter how you spin it, the retcon stink won't go away. It just screams contrivance.
They WERE traitors, but for whatever reason the Lion deemed them worthy of redemption. Bit of a difference there.
Because we all know how flip floppy siding with chaos is especially by accident, and how it's just a whoopsy and you're cured of any chaotic taint.
It's not like fighting AGAINST chaos gets you painted with the purge me sign or anything. Definitely can see how actively aiding chaos in fighting the imperium in no way shows a flawed character or dangerous vulnerability that no one would risk ignoring.
Nope, space marines all just accidented their way into a chaos fueled civil war and they're all really pure and noble and once you care bear stare into their hearts the whoopsy just goes away...
If only the other primarchs had deployed their care bear stares during the scouring all those accident prone noble astartes could have all been risen too, maybe they could have saved those naive poor primarchs that got boohoo confused by nasty chaos.
Secret character defining shame? Come now you're being too hard on yourself poor fragile warrior. Let go of your whoopsies and become the superbestest can't ever do any wrong warriors who completely undermine the tragedy and consequences of a civil war we just spent 20 years lathering pathos on with a spatula.
Oooor, perhaps, the insane brutality of the Imperium’s normal approach is not actually a good thing and a more nuanced way has merit? Because there’s definitely no way that people can be honestly deceived into following their commander instead of a distant being they’ve never met, later realise how badly they were fooled and want to come in from the cold… only to find out that the “warmth” is a plasma cannon to the face.
But of course not, that’s heresy!
When we are told repeatedly that just being in proximity to chaos taints everything from buildings to planets to human genelines, it's a bit of a nonsense to treat fighting for it (regardless of the context) as a purely ideological issue.
Chaos isn't a political phase you can change your mind on. Once you let it in, deliberately of not, it is inexorably corrosive.
If you can just change your mind with no consequences then you have undermined the very existential terror the primordial annihilator represents.
If only the Eldar had just changed their minds then slannesh wouldn't have been born.
Hellebore wrote: It doesn't look at all ridiculous that they were considered traitors for 10,000 years and then lion el'plot Wang flops around and presto they weren't traitors all along.
No matter how you spin it, the retcon stink won't go away. It just screams contrivance.
They WERE traitors, but for whatever reason the Lion deemed them worthy of redemption. Bit of a difference there.
Because we all know how flip floppy siding with chaos is especially by accident, and how it's just a whoopsy and you're cured of any chaotic taint.
It's not like fighting AGAINST chaos gets you painted with the purge me sign or anything. Definitely can see how actively aiding chaos in fighting the imperium in no way shows a flawed character or dangerous vulnerability that no one would risk ignoring.
Nope, space marines all just accidented their way into a chaos fueled civil war and they're all really pure and noble and once you care bear stare into their hearts the whoopsy just goes away...
If only the other primarchs had deployed their care bear stares during the scouring all those accident prone noble astartes could have all been risen too, maybe they could have saved those naive poor primarchs that got boohoo confused by nasty chaos.
Secret character defining shame? Come now you're being too hard on yourself poor fragile warrior. Let go of your whoopsies and become the superbestest can't ever do any wrong warriors who completely undermine the tragedy and consequences of a civil war we just spent 20 years lathering pathos on with a spatula.
The whole point about the dark angels used to be you didn’t really know which half of them actual were the traitors. I know that the HH books have ruined that gem but maybe this is a way of going back to a state where maybe the “traitors” were right and the lion is using them to keep an eye on the dodgy as feth “loyalist” types? I hope that is the case and maybe there’s a bit more nuance to the chapter now.
To quote Codex Angels of Death, "most of the Fallen realise that their actions during the fall of Caliban were wrong. Disgusted by the corrupting influence of the Chaos gods and unable to reconcile themselves with their order they lead a solitary existence."
Tbh the Lion probably trusts neither group. Setting up two mutually mistrustful groups to watch each other without really explaining anything to either seems a very Lion thing to do.
The whole point about the dark angels used to be you didn’t really know which half of them actual were the traitors. I know that the HH books have ruined that gem but maybe this is a way of going back to a state where maybe the “traitors” were right and the lion is using them to keep an eye on the dodgy as feth “loyalist” types? I hope that is the case and maybe there’s a bit more nuance to the chapter now.
That was just the fanon take. It had no basis in... anything. The Chapter DA were the loyalists, period and the end. (Well, post-retcon when they became knights and green and the traitor aspect was created out of nothing, because the traitor bit had no relevance at all to the original version of 1st/2nd edition and the Deathwing short story)
Santtu wrote: To quote Codex Angels of Death, "most of the Fallen realise that their actions during the fall of Caliban were wrong. Disgusted by the corrupting influence of the Chaos gods and unable to reconcile themselves with their order they lead a solitary existence."
Exactly. I'm no 40k loremaster, but even I know that not all of the Fallen were actively helping Chaos or even fighting against the Imperium. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that several of them simply hung up their bolters and became farmers.
Santtu wrote: To quote Codex Angels of Death, "most of the Fallen realise that their actions during the fall of Caliban were wrong. Disgusted by the corrupting influence of the Chaos gods and unable to reconcile themselves with their order they lead a solitary existence."
Exactly. I'm no 40k loremaster, but even I know that not all of the Fallen were actively helping Chaos or even fighting against the Imperium. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that several of them simply hung up their bolters and became farmers.
The quote literally says that they were corruptingly influenced by chaos.
I swear to god in 10 years gw will have backflipped the heresy so they can preserve their precious primarchs and marines nobility. They get popular and suddenly they are.bending over backwards to make fans feel like it's ok that their favourite were chaos worshipping evil because they were all just misunderstood...
I got the impression from reading the Arks of Omen: The Lion book that Lion was forgiving any Fallen he found that were simply renegades and killing any that truly embraced the Dark Gods.
Yeah. Not all Fallen fell to Chaos. Some were just wrong place/wrong time, had the wrong information, or are living in shame for what people think of them.
The whole point about the dark angels used to be you didn’t really know which half of them actual were the traitors. I know that the HH books have ruined that gem but maybe this is a way of going back to a state where maybe the “traitors” were right and the lion is using them to keep an eye on the dodgy as feth “loyalist” types? I hope that is the case and maybe there’s a bit more nuance to the chapter now.
That was just the fanon take. It had no basis in... anything. The Chapter DA were the loyalists, period and the end. (Well, post-retcon when they became knights and green and the traitor aspect was created out of nothing, because the traitor bit had no relevance at all to the original version of 1st/2nd edition and the Deathwing short story)
It had a basis in a single Gav Thorpe novel where it came from a very unreliable narrator that had fully fallen. Then 4Chan got a hold of it and memes do what they do and people confused the jokes for the actual fluff.
This new fluff just confirms that it was never true all along.
Yeah it wasn't just one bit of fluff, there were several bits of fluff that hinted, alluded, implied, or directly stated as much - often from the POV of an unreliable narrator or a questionable character. Saying it came out from a bit taken out of context from a single novel and turned into a meme is disingenuous. There was a fairly large body of fluff that pointed in that direction, but that was the *intent* - they never really were secret traitors or whatever, GW was just trying to create compelling background and provide depth. That it was memed by the community is appropriate, because thats what it essentially was from GW to begin with - a meme created by the design team for the consumption of their paying customers. That people then began to take the meme *seriously* or believe it to be real rather than understanding it in the meta-context of what the writers intention was is where the wheels fell off the wagon.
Geifer wrote: I'm just baffled that the fluff blurb in the article makes it out like the Companions are some mute weirdos who stalk people and their victims are somehow super chill about it. I hope that's just the article being brief and casual.
I'd like (in a darkly comedic way) if that was just what happened, to show how truly messed up the Imperium has become after the Circatrix formed - you know Bob, the murderous, 10.000 year old hobo-stalker-bodyguard? Yeah, he gives me the creeps and is indeed a huge cause for alarm, but we're so far up gak creek he doesn't even make the list of things that demand, like, any action at all right now...
People are hoping for a range refresh and expansion, and even a standalone codex.
Personally I'm against that last bit. The Tau have been written into a corner and are so one-sided. It would be interesting to see the Tau become a faction of factions with more focus on its auxiliaries.
So, what do you all make of this article? Could it just be a fancy HQ or Elite? Perhaps a Kroot Lieutenant with antique wargear?
Dominar_Jameson_V wrote: Hello, I'm not sure if I should post this here or start a new thread, but apparently the latest photo from the rumour engine is a new Kroot.
People are hoping for a range refresh and expansion, and even a standalone codex.
Personally I'm against that last bit. The Tau have been written into a corner and are so one-sided. It would be interesting to see the Tau become a faction of factions with more focus on its auxiliaries.
So, what do you all make of this article? Could it just be a fancy HQ or Elite? Perhaps a Kroot Lieutenant with antique wargear?
These are the current Kroot rumours from a month ago:
Tau will get a big release for Kroot, either new combat patrol or new launch box with 20 new kroot, 2 new characters, cavalry and a big gun all dedicated to kroot. One of the kroot characters is riding something
The rider Kroot is already teased in the 2024 silhouette video, the "big gun" part could be that rumour engine from your article shown with the Krootox Rider and the other other ones are likely part of the normal kroot or the second character.
I would say its very unlikely they will get their own codex because 1. the rumours talked about a kroot release for tau, 2. the three shown silhouette fit the next three codexes which includes the Tau codex and not the redacted one and 3. even with all that they don't really have enough kits to warrant their own codex. (yeah I know World eaters also only have 6 kits but they can at least also use some CSM kits)
I think he means the "everything getting taller" thing? Because Primaris were taller than regular Marines and some took that to mean GW was upping the scale of the entire model range. This was also alongside things like Greater Demons going from their regular size to their "Forgeworld" size
chaos0xomega wrote: Dunno what you mean by primaris design typing away, it seems to be more and more present.
I'm referring to the Primaris 'Armor'. The ankle bobbles, thigh plates, hip plates, extra armor on the backpack and between the shin and foot.
The rounded Mk4 style helmet, the medieval Cavlary besigews [the trim on top of the knee's] and the huge, huge collar that can catch a couple underhand-toss grenades or carnival tennis balls.
And with this another part of this rumour becomes true:
Tau will get a big release for Kroot, either new combat patrol or new launch box with 20 new kroot, 2 new characters, cavalry and a big gun all dedicated to kroot. One of the kroot characters is riding something.
Also a melee ethereal seems to be a commemorative series model, could be the new store birthday model for next year?
Other stuff from that rumour:
Space wolves will likely take until the end of the edition but should be getting big things.
Blood Angels with new Sanguinary Priest and Sanguinary Guard but no idea when they will release
Dark Angels, in addition to the old rumours about Deathwing stuff they will get a new combat patrol: five hellblasters, ten intercessors, three bladeguard and gravis captain. There will also be a new upgrade sprue
Horus Heresy should get a new battlebox but Valrak still wants so get some more information bevor telling more.
beast_gts wrote: Upcoming Miniature of the Month is a Fellgor Warrior:
How quickly do these tend to run out? Will I need to take time off work to rush down on the morning of the 6th?
Honestly I'd say call your local (or FB message them) and find out. It's going to vary a lot based on how busy the store is. I know when GW started this scheme some managers also withheld them from some customers or focused on certain kinds of customer - eg very new people etc.... That was when they were clipped out of existing sprue though. Not sure if that policy has changed for the new ones that seem to be unique castings.
lol, the mini of the month is usually a one-week thing for my store. You get people dropping in that you wont see for the rest of the month, just to grab the model and leave. They bring all their friends too.
New Custodes Boxset, not an army set so no Codex included just models. Includes 6 Vertus Praetors, 6 Allarus Terminators, 5 Custodian Guard and a Shield Captain? He also heard that the new model is in the box and since there isn't a solo Shield captain model, you just build one out of the other kits, its likely the new model is a solo Shield Captain. The new weapon in the Melta Lance is probably there so there is actually a reason to buy it since Shield Captains aren't really rare for Custodes players as you can build one out of every box of theirs.
Two? new Chaos boxsets. One is more daemon oriented and has the Jump Attack lord in it. The other one should have Terminators and a Chaos Lord inside. Some rumours about a new Huron Blackheart model but should be taken with a lot of salt and will likely not come with the rest and the codex but later.
Tau should be getting an army set full of kroot. Kroot cavalry named Rampagers with guns on the back which pretty much sound like the current Krootox Riders.
Matrindur wrote: Two? new Chaos boxsets. One is more daemon oriented and has the Jump Attack lord in it. The other one should have Terminators and a Chaos Lord inside. Some rumours about a new Huron Blackheart model but should be taken with a lot of salt and will likely not come with the rest and the codex but later.
I can totally see GW making two new HQs for Chaos and locking them inside two separate expensive army boxes.
At least that's better than the duel army boxed sets where you had to hunt around to find a swapping partner or sell off the second half of the box if you didn't want it.
Sure not impossible, most times not too hard, but it WAS an increased cost over just getting one half and it meant more hassle and work.
At least single faction boxed sets you've more chance that you can use some or all of the contents whilst waiting for the model to go on individual sale.
Overread wrote: At least that's better than the duel army boxed sets where you had to hunt around to find a swapping partner or sell off the second half of the box if you didn't want it.
Releasing two new models for a single army, but splitting them up into two separate army boxes filled with existing kits? How would that be "better" in any respect?
Overread wrote: At least that's better than the duel army boxed sets where you had to hunt around to find a swapping partner or sell off the second half of the box if you didn't want it.
Releasing two new models for a single army, but splitting them up into two separate army boxes filled with existing kits? How would that be "better" in any respect?
Because all the kits are usable for the same army as opposed to 2 new characters and the rest existing kits, but half are csm and half are Eldar, or half are orks and half are space Wolves?
Also GW seem to have sped up a bit in getting models out - some of the duel pack models took over a year to get individual releases and I think that filtered back to GW with negative feedback. It's fine to have a fomo set but get the solo model release out in good time too.
Matrindur wrote: I could see the two chaos boxsets turning out as one actual boxset, maybe an army set, and the other being a new Combat Patrol.
Yeah mixups like this have happened at least a couple of times before with a Valrak rumour - his claim of "new gaunts" with the 9e Tyranid codex ended up being the 30+ termagant Combat Patrol.
With CSM, Custodes, DA, and Tau all lined up with boxed sets like this it makes me wonder if Orks will get one too for their new mek model.
New Valrak rumours:
Only the new stuff for the old news just watch the video or scroll up the the past rumour posts
New Dark Angels Combat Patrol: 5 Hellblasters, 10 Intercessors, 3 Bladeguard, Gravis Captain (he thinks the rumours are slightly wrong here and its 10 Heavy Intercessors instead as the Gravis Captain wouldn't make sense otherwise)
Grey Knights: Something vehicle related
Bot SW and BA getting refreshes like Dark Angels but what he hears about Blood Angels sounds "too good to be true" so will be in a seperate video
Nothing specific about Space Wolves but they will likely be at the end of the codex cycle so end of 2025/start of 2026
Adepta Sororitas (probably) getting a new boxset with a new HQ
Kroot: Not sure here if he misspoke or if he meant it this way but word for word when he is talking about the boxset "There is a Kroot HQ which again was teased in whats coming in 2024"
So that silhouette Kroot might be a HQ?
New Tau Combat Patrol: Commander Suit, Pathfinders Kill Team, Firewarriors, Devil Fish
Orks: The teased silhouette is a Mekboy in a Meksuit thats the same size as a Redemptor Dreadnought and will come in a boxset: new Mekboy, 20 Boyz, Stompa (yes that Stompa)
Other Xenos stuff in Kill Team in a future video
Adepta Sororitas (probably) getting a new boxset with a new HQ
I rarely believe Valrak rumours at the best of times but I really hope this one in particular isn't true. Last thing the Sisters need is another HQ, they have plenty already and GW is in a mess with the rules to attach them to units as it is.
A lot of these 'box sets' sound like they will be the new CP boxes along with each codex. The Kroot box seems to be the only one that would be something different. However if these are indeed what would be half of the old Battleboxes that is an improvement.
Yes, each faction is getting an updated Combat Patrol as we go forward. We see it happening already with Space Marines, Tyranids, Necron, and Admech.
GW listened to people complaining that Combat Patrols were the same from edition to edition which stymied growth of certain factions. Now, they shift it up so if you want to save some dosh, buy the current one and the new one and you'll have saved 30% on average across multiple boxes to get a large force.
That said, GW is not going to put a Stompa in a Combat Patrol.
Wasn't there an earlier Valrak rumour about limited time boxed sets to introduce these new custodes / CSM characters, before making the models available separately? Now he's saying something similar for Orks & Sisters too.
I could believe them doing a box with the new Mek / Boyz / Stompa as a separate thing to the combat patrol.
Oguhmek wrote: Hahaha, yes he probably means a *orkanaut. The Stompa has been, what 850 points or so for the past few editions (i.e. priced out of the game).
That assumes they are new cp and not limited discount new model separately later releases gw loves lately,
Adepta Sororitas (probably) getting a new boxset with a new HQ
I rarely believe Valrak rumours at the best of times but I really hope this one in particular isn't true. Last thing the Sisters need is another HQ, they have plenty already and GW is in a mess with the rules to attach them to units as it is.
A lot of these 'box sets' sound like they will be the new CP boxes along with each codex. The Kroot box seems to be the only one that would be something different. However if these are indeed what would be half of the old Battleboxes that is an improvement.
Sisters could do with a priest/confessor/missionary plastic kit, though. Right now we're limited to a board game character and metal models from the last century.
Not going to comment how much use that is in 10th ed, but purely in terms of models, Sisters aren't yet among the armies for which a new clampack character is the last thing they need.
Geifer wrote: Sisters could do with a priest/confessor/missionary plastic kit, though. Right now we're limited to a board game character and metal models from the last century.
Not going to comment how much use that is in 10th ed, but purely in terms of models, Sisters aren't yet among the armies for which a new clampack character is the last thing they need.
Sisters need death cultists and crusaders, and maybe some rules for using Redemptionists as a form of Frateris militia.
I wonder if GW are potentially looking to lower their SKU to 3rd parties by doing more boxed bundle sets in the future.
So instead of a 3rd party having to stock dozens of models per faction they could stock two or three army bundles; a few characters and then the rest might be on order/direct order only or just not required.
Mr_Rose wrote: If Sisters get a “new” HQ I’d rather they just released a Palatine kit with more options than “the good gun or the bad one” available.
That's still a step up over the new commissar! I wonder if GW thinks of HQs as being in two tiers, and we get stuff with lots of options like the Castellan and the Canoness, and then the losers like the Commissar and Palatine. There's no reason at all for them not to have put some extra options on the sprue.
I think GW views one-option named and non named leaders as a quick filler model. Something that doesn't cost them as much to develop and cast and which can be used to keep attention on an army and give them something to market without having to invest as much into them or change up the army in a big way like adding a new unit etc...
The only time they really become an issue is for example Fyreslayers where you've a very small army to start with that then doesn't get anything but leaders for several years
Adepta Sororitas (probably) getting a new boxset with a new HQ
I rarely believe Valrak rumours at the best of times but I really hope this one in particular isn't true.
Hm. Even if this wasn’t a rumor it is what is most likely to be expected;
Their current Combat Patrol is composed of all the pre-relaunch ”here is a taste of what’s to come”-kits. They have all since been replaced by newer versions (with the exception of the Rhino, maybe?), and lack most of the options of their newer variants (the seraphims only come with bolt pistols, for instance). So it really seems like they should get a ”normal” discount box/combat patrol. :O
And they’ve gotten a hefty release over the last couple of editions. Which probably puts them firmly in the ”1 model with the codex, and that’s it”-camp, with most armies, for this edition.
That said, I totally agree with the weirdness/confusion on how rhe characters in our index is currently written. And a new character seems low in priority.
On the other hand, as a Crusade-player I would appreciate some generic character options for leading zephyrims and such.
tneva82 wrote: Otoh normal cp would mean less models for same cost trading options for models. I found these great to build up bulk cheaply.
(also helped to fight off attack of the clones syndrome)
For sure!
Since they’re all unique sculpts it would mean losing out on something. And some of the sculpts are quite nice in the com.pat. I especially dig the Repentia Superior which is just amazing ✨?? and has a really cool energy going for it
lord_blackfang wrote: Stompa and Orkanaut both cost the same, 90% of the price of a Combat Patrol box. There is zero chance of either one being in a Combat Patrol.
In the past, the Magmadroth from the Fyreslayers Start Collecting box literally cost more on its own than the Start Collecting box itself did, despite all the extra stuff that came in the combat patrol.
Don't assume relative pricing to be what dictates the eligibility of something to be included in a bundle.
Geifer wrote: Sisters could do with a priest/confessor/missionary plastic kit, though. Right now we're limited to a board game character and metal models from the last century.
Not going to comment how much use that is in 10th ed, but purely in terms of models, Sisters aren't yet among the armies for which a new clampack character is the last thing they need.
Sisters need death cultists and crusaders, and maybe some rules for using Redemptionists as a form of Frateris militia.
No. We have novitiates, there's absolutely no need to waste resources on frateris militia.
H.B.M.C. wrote: For all the gak he gets, he seems to be right quite often. And him being right seems to make people mad, which is irrational.
Valraks sources are one of the most trustworthy sources for years now, the only other source I trust more is Whitefang over on TGA. But what the person above you said is also true, not that his sources are wrong but that he himself has only basic knowledge (or just doesn't care) about factions that aren't his primary interest (which would mainly be Space Marines). At least thats the image I get from his videos. So for example I wouldn't be surprised if his sources just told him the Ork box would have their big robot inside and every ork robot is just a stompa for him but it could also be a Gorka-/Morkanaut instead
H.B.M.C. wrote: For all the gak he gets, he seems to be right quite often. And him being right seems to make people mad, which is irrational.
Agreed. I don't watch his videos much, but in the ones I've seen he seems pretty honest about whether he's got good intel or is just making inspired guesses. And his predictions do seem to often be correct. I'm not sure where all the hate comes from, but then I feel the same way about the internet in general...
H.B.M.C. wrote: For all the gak he gets, he seems to be right quite often. And him being right seems to make people mad, which is irrational.
Agreed. I don't watch his videos much, but in the ones I've seen he seems pretty honest about whether he's got good intel or is just making inspired guesses. And his predictions do seem to often be correct. I'm not sure where all the hate comes from, but then I feel the same way about the internet in general...
He's a Yorkshireman, we're a bit like marmite generally.
So for example I wouldn't be surprised if his sources just told him the Ork box would have their big robot inside and every ork robot is just a stompa for him but it could also be a Gorka-/Morkanaut instead
Which would still make no sense for CP unless CP prices are going up big time. But so far combat patrols been same price so hard to see them redoing every CP so far done to new price point...We just got 3 new ones!
But of course it might not be CP but just new model + discount models limited print run with new model separately later type of thing.
So for example I wouldn't be surprised if his sources just told him the Ork box would have their big robot inside and every ork robot is just a stompa for him but it could also be a Gorka-/Morkanaut instead
Yeah this would be entirely on brand for Valrak. Whenever I see one of his rumours my usual reaction is "something like that will happen, but maybe not exactly that".
So for example I wouldn't be surprised if his sources just told him the Ork box would have their big robot inside and every ork robot is just a stompa for him but it could also be a Gorka-/Morkanaut instead
Which would still make no sense for CP unless CP prices are going up big time. But so far combat patrols been same price so hard to see them redoing every CP so far done to new price point...We just got 3 new ones!
But of course it might not be CP but just new model + discount models limited print run with new model separately later type of thing.
I expect GW's new plan is the latter. They've finally figured out that boxes like Eldritch Omens aren't the best way to dsitribute new models in a bundle, because customers are put off over paying for a second faction that they don't collect.
Instead I suspect the next few codexes will get a schedule like this:
1) Release the codex alongside a limited Battleforce-style box that contains a new unit, such as this Mek guy
2) A little while later, release that model separately alongside an updated CP box
This way anyone inspired by the codex release can get 1000pts+ at a discounted price and is more likely to take the leap. Anyone already collecting that faction might be tempted to buy more than just the one new unit.
So for example I wouldn't be surprised if his sources just told him the Ork box would have their big robot inside and every ork robot is just a stompa for him but it could also be a Gorka-/Morkanaut instead
Which would still make no sense for CP unless CP prices are going up big time. But so far combat patrols been same price so hard to see them redoing every CP so far done to new price point...We just got 3 new ones!
But of course it might not be CP but just new model + discount models limited print run with new model separately later type of thing.
The Ork box is for sure not a CP as it fits the discounts on the normal boxsets perfectly.
If the new Mekboy is Redemptor size he is likely going to be 60€, same as the Redemptor or Ghazghkull. 20 Boyz would be 85€ and the Stompa/Morkanaut/Gorkanaut are all 110€ which is 255€ in total. At the normal pricepoint of 170€ that would be a 33% discount which is exactly what these kind of boxes are aimed at.
Between the Stompa and the Gorka/Morkanaut its just that the stompa is quite old and while the Morka/Gorkanaut also don't reach quite the quality of modern kits they are still better than the Stompa.
And while some older stuff makes sense in boxsets they normally don't put as old stuff inside as the stompa would be.
Same is true for the Custodes set from the last rumours by the way. That one would be 38% at normal boxset prices so will also be a boxset not a CP.
The Dark Angels Combat Patrol on the other hand would only be 18% instead of the new CP norm of 28%. But changing the Intercessors to Heavy Intercessors would be too much at 41% so the most likely version is inlcuding the new upgrade sprue which would result in 30% which is in line with the other CPs.
The Tau CP would be 32% so also in line with other stuff.
Geifer wrote: Sisters could do with a priest/confessor/missionary plastic kit, though. Right now we're limited to a board game character and metal models from the last century.
Not going to comment how much use that is in 10th ed, but purely in terms of models, Sisters aren't yet among the armies for which a new clampack character is the last thing they need.
Sisters need death cultists and crusaders, and maybe some rules for using Redemptionists as a form of Frateris militia.
No. We have novitiates, there's absolutely no need to waste resources on frateris militia.
You're right. We should probably waste those resources on more Primaris.
As great as it is to have plastic Sisters, I don't want to see GW neglect the Ecclesiarchy side of the army like they did Tau auxiliaries. It robs the army of the breadth it should by all rights have.
Bit of a moot point though if the rumor is for a single new character.
As great as it is to have plastic Sisters, I don't want to see GW neglect the Ecclesiarchy side of the army like they did Tau auxiliaries. It robs the army of the breadth it should by all rights have.
Good news is that Tau auxiliaries seem to be getting quite a lot this edition with multiple kroot kits with the codex and vespids rumoured for kill team so we might also see Ecclesiarchy stuff for the sisters in the future
Valrak for a long time had like a 0% accuracy rate on rumors - that might be a bit of an exaggeration but the point is he was often very wrong and spread absolute bull through the community because he would share utter nonsense and newcomers assumed it was real because he was popular and had a big soapbox/megaphone. Him being mostly right is a relatively recent phenomenon over the past couple years.
chaos0xomega wrote: Valrak for a long time had like a 0% accuracy rate on rumors - that might be a bit of an exaggeration but the point is he was often very wrong and spread absolute bull through the community because he would share utter nonsense and newcomers assumed it was real because he was popular and had a big soapbox/megaphone. Him being mostly right is a relatively recent phenomenon over the past couple years.
That could certainly be true, but I started following him during 8th and since then (especially since 9th started) he has a very good track record. Since he just parrots what his sources tell him a low accuracy before that isn't relevant to a good accuracy now as its very likely different sources.
And even if many people dislike him he is still one of the biggest rumourmongers nowadays so it also makes sense that trustworthy sources would come to him. If you'd want to leak something you wouldn't go to some nobody that no one knows, you'd go to a well known person that could either give you money or attention for your leaks.
Valrak is a content creator first and foremost. He's deep in the algorithm, and knows that he's gotta make x number of videos at y amount of length in z intervals of time in order to hit the algorithm just right.
So, whether it's real stuff or fake stuff, why bother looking it up when he's gotta make another video to put out? If it's wrong, he can make an apology video and hit the algorithm. If he's right he can make a celebration video to hit the algorithm. If it ends up not being confirmed one way or another he'll make a secondary video revisiting the topic to hit the algorithm.
Why work harder when people feed you the slop that you can then sling at youtube?
I expect GW's new plan is the latter. They've finally figured out that boxes like Eldritch Omens aren't the best way to dsitribute new models in a bundle, because customers are put off over paying for a second faction that they don't collect.
Instead I suspect the next few codexes will get a schedule like this:
1) Release the codex alongside a limited Battleforce-style box that contains a new unit, such as this Mek guy
2) A little while later, release that model separately alongside an updated CP box
This way anyone inspired by the codex release can get 1000pts+ at a discounted price and is more likely to take the leap. Anyone already collecting that faction might be tempted to buy more than just the one new unit.
Has that happened for any of the single figure releases? Didn't happen for the Adeptus Mechanicus. I think the strategy you describe is there, but it seems to be more for the armies receiving updates to a number of units – Dark Angels, and recently Flesheater Courts, Seraphon for Age of Sigmar, and so on.
I expect GW's new plan is the latter. They've finally figured out that boxes like Eldritch Omens aren't the best way to dsitribute new models in a bundle, because customers are put off over paying for a second faction that they don't collect.
Instead I suspect the next few codexes will get a schedule like this:
1) Release the codex alongside a limited Battleforce-style box that contains a new unit, such as this Mek guy
2) A little while later, release that model separately alongside an updated CP box
This way anyone inspired by the codex release can get 1000pts+ at a discounted price and is more likely to take the leap. Anyone already collecting that faction might be tempted to buy more than just the one new unit.
Has that happened for any of the single figure releases? Didn't happen for the Adeptus Mechanicus. I think the strategy you describe is there, but it seems to be more for the armies receiving updates to a number of units – Dark Angels, and recently Flesheater Courts, Seraphon for Age of Sigmar, and so on.
Lion El'Johnson releasing with Bladeguard Veterans.
All the Arks of Omens box sets releasing originally along Farsight, Snikrot, and others.
All the AoS Dawnbringer box sets that have one new model and a bunch of other models before splitting them off individually.
They may not be humongous Battleforce boxes (200+ dollar box sets released around holiday time) but likely smaller boxes with thematic units like we've seen for end-of-edition stuff to help promote army growth. You do save some money on those, at least from what we've seen.
Greenfield wrote: Has that happened for any of the single figure releases? Didn't happen for the Adeptus Mechanicus. I think the strategy you describe is there, but it seems to be more for the armies receiving updates to a number of units – Dark Angels, and recently Flesheater Courts, Seraphon for Age of Sigmar, and so on.
This theory is based on earlier Valrak rumours too, rather than anything in the past. He specifically mentioned:
Kroot will come in an army box with new models (like DA). A complementary Tau CP box is listed above.
Custodes box with new HQ, but too much stuff for a normal CP set
CSM get two boxed sets; a new terminator lord with terminators, and a new jump pack HQ with daemon oriented units (it's unclear if one of these is a new CP box)
Now he's also saying similar things about Orks and Sisters.
Seems like they don't plan on selling just single models with codexes at release, even if that's all that is new.
I think they said early on that they wanted to mix releases up a bit compared to the pattern they'd entered into with the past couple of editions.
So rather than a case of either getting tons of new models, or a single token character, some Codices will get lots of stuff (Tyranids, Dark Angels), others will get next to nothing (AdMech), whereas others could end up getting a few new models (like Necrons just did).
I think that's better, as it means that if your Codex isn't getting the "range refresh" treatment, there's a decent chance that it'll be more than [Your Faction's Primaris Lieutenant Equivalent].
We saw that with AoS. You had some modest releases like Sylvaneth and the new Orruks, then small releases like Fyreslayers and Kharadron, and then the big ones like Seraphon and Cities.
Having those medium updates that's a unit or two and a leader is really good.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Also means that the Dark Eldar might actually get a new miniature this edition!
Imagine the great Lord/sorceror terminator kit being replaced by a monopose and Dark Eldar still getting nothing... At least Dark Eldar will get a monopose character, too.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Also means that the Dark Eldar might actually get a new miniature this edition!
Imagine the great Lord/sorceror terminator kit being replaced by a monopose and Dark Eldar still getting nothing... At least Dark Eldar will get a monopose character, too.
A monopose character will still be like a 20% increase in the number of characters DE have in total.
Better case is a new box with say a new urien rakharth, a new 3 model grotesque kit, a set of wracks, a venom and a pain engine as a coven box set.
Best case would be that plus porting the Tantalus to plastic in place of the dais of destruction with options for Vect or a high archon on a throne or foot. And mandrakes.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Also means that the Dark Eldar might actually get a new miniature this edition!
Imagine the great Lord/sorceror terminator kit being replaced by a monopose and Dark Eldar still getting nothing... At least Dark Eldar will get a monopose character, too.
A monopose character will still be like a 20% increase in the number of characters DE have in total.
Better case is a new box with say a new urien rakharth, a new 3 model grotesque kit, a set of wracks, a venom and a pain engine as a coven box set.
Best case would be that plus porting the Tantalus to plastic in place of the dais of destruction with options for Vect or a high archon on a throne or foot. And mandrakes.
That would be nice and despite my cynical post before I think something like that is going to happen within then next 1-3 years, just not yet, because have no rumours for that. Personally I view Dark Eldar more as a mid-edition update like CSM and Eldar got during the last editions. I don't think GW would put them in an edition starter with loads of kits.
If there was a new box set, it would make sense that it would include the Sanguinary Guard as theres not much else that would warrant a distinct Blood Angels flavored sculpt. If the box includes Sanguinary Guard, it makes sense to include a Sanguinary Priest, and also makes sense to include Sanguinor. Astorath and Lemartes Im not sure about.
The sanguinary piest is already more or less primaris size, but I guess they could do with a priest with jump pack option.
Lemartes is cool, but dont make sense in a box with Sanguinary guard and Astorath (double chappy setup).
Would be cool if the sanguinary guard instead had option to equip one guy with narthesium.
Oh, and I would really like to trade all those named characters for Brother Corbulo.
I expect GW's new plan is the latter. They've finally figured out that boxes like Eldritch Omens aren't the best way to dsitribute new models in a bundle, because customers are put off over paying for a second faction that they don't collect.
Instead I suspect the next few codexes will get a schedule like this:
1) Release the codex alongside a limited Battleforce-style box that contains a new unit, such as this Mek guy
2) A little while later, release that model separately alongside an updated CP box
This way anyone inspired by the codex release can get 1000pts+ at a discounted price and is more likely to take the leap. Anyone already collecting that faction might be tempted to buy more than just the one new unit.
Has that happened for any of the single figure releases? Didn't happen for the Adeptus Mechanicus. I think the strategy you describe is there, but it seems to be more for the armies receiving updates to a number of units – Dark Angels, and recently Flesheater Courts, Seraphon for Age of Sigmar, and so on.
Lion El'Johnson releasing with Bladeguard Veterans.
All the Arks of Omens box sets releasing originally along Farsight, Snikrot, and others.
All the AoS Dawnbringer box sets that have one new model and a bunch of other models before splitting them off individually.
They may not be humongous Battleforce boxes (200+ dollar box sets released around holiday time) but likely smaller boxes with thematic units like we've seen for end-of-edition stuff to help promote army growth. You do save some money on those, at least from what we've seen.
Scottywan82 wrote:Wow! That would be a wild boxed set if it happened.
Dudeface wrote:I've not listened to it but in text if be careful to not assume that's an implied list of contents and the box is separate?
chaos0xomega wrote:If there was a new box set, it would make sense that it would include the Sanguinary Guard as theres not much else that would warrant a distinct Blood Angels flavored sculpt. If the box includes Sanguinary Guard, it makes sense to include a Sanguinary Priest, and also makes sense to include Sanguinor. Astorath and Lemartes Im not sure about.
Yeah sorry should have been more accurate, he didn't know what will be in the boxset.
Those for sure aren't all in the boxset. I'm sure some of them will be, same as the DA one, just not all of them.
Thinking back on Blood Angels and when they might get a new release, if we look at past codex releases (going back as long as I’ve been collecting), we can see a bit of a pattern emerge:
Blood Angels 7th Ed Codex Dec 2014
Blood Angels 8th Ed Codex Dec 2017
Psychic Awakening: Blood of Baal Dec 2019
Blood Angels 9th Ed Codex Supplement Dec 2020
While GW is not bound to precedent, should we maybe be thinking any Blood Angel release will not be likely until the very end of a given year?
Lord Damocles wrote: Why would the Blood Angels themselves even want to Primarisise Lemartes? Dude's a total loon since Ward got his hands on him in 5th ed.
And GW aren't going to want to continue with some Firstborn models.
You answered on the 2nd line. They don't want to continue with firstborn model. Got to sell new one.
Lord Damocles wrote: Why would the Blood Angels themselves even want to Primarisise Lemartes? Dude's a total loon since Ward got his hands on him in 5th ed.
And GW aren't going to want to continue with some Firstborn models.
You answered on the 2nd line. They don't want to continue with firstborn model. Got to sell new one.
That would explain GW's real-world motive, but my point was that it would make less than no sense in-universe for the Blood Angels to do it.
In-universe is what GW makes. There's no external in-universe that GW is beholden. If GW decides so Horus comes out of death as a champion of Blood Angels and that's all the in-universe reason needed for it.
There's no rule that upscaled marines always means Primaris. Obviously Crowe wouldn't get the rubicon treatment but still got a larger model, and there was also the Black Templar character which could be used as either firstborn or primaris (when the rules cared about that). Terminators can also be either in the fluff.
It's plausible they can just release plastic Lemartes++ and not acknowledge the change in the fluff, like when CSM possessed models got bigger.
I don't have the 'dex yet - are those four things nerfs or clarifications?
Off the top of my head, the two strat erratas are nerfs, and the 'FAQs' are explaining that the abilities in question aren't saddled with normal restrictions (or don't need a prerequisite), so very much not nerfs.
The first strat is, I think, preventing the strat from buffing warriors and immortals (they were being affected by [Cryptek] the keyword (because one was in the unit and passing it on), but now its targeted at 'Cryptek models' which is totally different), and the second is limiting the number of units affected.
I don't have the 'dex yet - are those four things nerfs or clarifications?
Off the top of my head, the two strat erratas are nerfs, and the 'FAQs' are explaining that the abilities in question aren't saddled with normal restrictions (or don't need a prerequisite), so very much not nerfs.
The first strat is, I think, preventing the strat from buffing warriors and immortals (they were being affected by [Cryptek] the keyword (because one was in the unit and passing it on), but now its targeted at 'Cryptek models' which is totally different), and the second is limiting the number of units affected.
The second actually expands the number of units affected, as it now includes the Triarch Stalker and not just the Praetorians.
Is there any info if the old deathwing is going OOP? Obviously there’s the new knights and standard models, but the old kit had command options that neither new kit has
GaroRobe wrote: Is there any info if the old deathwing is going OOP? Obviously there’s the new knights and standard models, but the old kit had command options that neither new kit has
GaroRobe wrote: Is there any info if the old deathwing is going OOP? Obviously there’s the new knights and standard models, but the old kit had command options that neither new kit has
We’ll have to see the sprue. Hopefully included
The standard deathwing terminators are just the new upgrade sprue, though. And I think deathwing knights only have the options for swords or maces
GaroRobe wrote: Is there any info if the old deathwing is going OOP? Obviously there’s the new knights and standard models, but the old kit had command options that neither new kit has
I get the feeling that they are going. They also look tiny next to the upscaled Termies.They are also "temporarily out of stock" on all websites it seems.
There are I think 3 units that will be disappearing with that box. Strikemaster(he used to be a sergeant so it is just back to status quo), The Champion of Caliban, and the apothecary. I can imagine the Champion of Caliban either disappearing completely or coming in a campaign later on. The apothecary will most likely just be a generic one that we get later on.
I personally get the feeling that GW wants the base stuff(termies, marines) to be generic and instead keep the unique stuff to the non-codex compliant chapters such as the Jets, plasma speeder, and Deathwing Knights.
Does this info mean that the DA Codex supplement or new cards are not yet coming out separately?
If so, that's a few hours I can spend not in a GW online store queue.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Does this info mean that the DA Codex supplement or new cards are not yet coming out separately?
If so, that's a few hours I can spend not in a GW online store queue.
This launch box will be around a month ahead of the main release. If they're sticking to the 'Spring' roadmap date then earliest date for that is preorder Feb 17th, in store March 2nd
mithril2098 wrote: anyone else kinda hoping for a new Dark Angels Combat patrol with some of the new figures, instead of just the generic Primaris?
I'm not sure what you mean. Any new Combat patrol is going to be primaris. Unless they also get outrider bikes with a similar chapter-specific sprue (like the terminator sprue), I don't know what you're expecting. DA are a 'generic' codex chapter once you get past the organizational quirks (which is mostly just the 2nd company, since the veteran first company that's mostly terminators isn't all that weird). Fluff-wise they're 'special,' game and model-wise they're... really not.
mostly i was thinking that the new DA upgrade sprue would allow for a lot more interesting Combat patrol both visually and compiosition wise.
so rather than just a chaplain, 5 intercessors, 3 Interceptors, a dreadnought, and a sprue of DA shoulder pads, you'd have say, the chaplain and 5 intercessors (perhaps switched to the melee type?), then 5 terminators and a trio of bikers.
it would feel a lot more DA, and less "ultramarines but in green with winged swords"
I'm trying to figure out the 20 datacards, because I can only account for 19 unique datasheets currently:
Azrael
Asmodai
Ezekiel
Belial
Sammael
Lazarus
Lion El'Jonson
Deathwing Terminator Squad
Deathwing Command Squad
Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Strikemaster
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Black Knights
Ravenwing Command Squad
Land Speeder Vengeance
Ravenwing Darkshroud
Nephilim Jetfighter
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Inner Circle Companions
That's 19 out of 20 accounted for. Maybe the 20th card is just some kind of rule summary type thing or something? Or is there yet another unit we haven't been shown yet?
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm trying to figure out the 20 datacards, because I can only account for 19 unique datasheets currently:
Azrael
Asmodai
Ezekiel
Belial
Sammael
Lazarus
Lion El'Jonson
Deathwing Terminator Squad
Deathwing Command Squad
Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Strikemaster
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Black Knights
Ravenwing Command Squad
Land Speeder Vengeance
Ravenwing Darkshroud
Nephilim Jetfighter
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Inner Circle Companions
That's 19 out of 20 accounted for. Maybe the 20th card is just some kind of rule summary type thing or something? Or is there yet another unit we haven't been shown yet?
Maybe cards for Combat Patrol? Not sure if those would be included in this box and with the Necron/Admech preorder it listed them separately as X datasheets and Y Combat Patrol cards.
But if they are included in the box and in the 20 cards that would mean only 16 actual unit cards and four CP cards with the rumoured contents which sounds realistic if they delete a few units (Very likely Deathwing command squad and maybe Strikemaster?)
mithril2098 wrote: anyone else kinda hoping for a new Dark Angels Combat patrol with some of the new figures, instead of just the generic Primaris?
I'm not sure what you mean. Any new Combat patrol is going to be primaris. Unless they also get outrider bikes with a similar chapter-specific sprue (like the terminator sprue), I don't know what you're expecting. DA are a 'generic' codex chapter once you get past the organizational quirks (which is mostly just the 2nd company, since the veteran first company that's mostly terminators isn't all that weird). Fluff-wise they're 'special,' game and model-wise they're... really not.
The new DA Chapter-specific sprue isn't just for Terminators even though they are a heavy focus of it, it also has one of those facy Ravenwing bike accessories
@Zergsmasher - would Interrogator Chaplain count as a unique data card? Does Sammael still get the option for his land speeder because he might have 2.
OK that's a small surprise. I worked out the approximate RRP of the box based on similar items and the total came to around the same as an xmas battleforce, and was expecting £140/$250.
For anyone curious this works out as paying for the terminators & knights, getting Belial for roughly half price, then the upgrade sprues, transfers, supplement, and datacards are 'free'. It's a decent buy if you specifically want Deathwing/DA, not so great for anyone just after some terminator models.
iplay40k.com wrote: Orks are slated for some changes too in Spring 2024, right? Has the rumour mill churned out anything related to the mighty green bois?
current rumours:
Orks: The teased silhouette is a Mekboy in a Meksuit thats the same size as a Redemptor Dreadnought and will come in a boxset: new Mekboy, 20 Boyz, Stompa (yes that Stompa)
Orks: The teased silhouette is a Mekboy in a Meksuit thats the same size as a Redemptor Dreadnought and will come in a boxset: new Mekboy, 20 Boyz, Stompa (yes that Stompa)
Interesting, thanks for the info! Some of my friends were talking about the possibility of a new Combat Patrol like the Space Marines got but I don't think that'll happen now we've seen the new Hachette set. Lucky for me I've always wanted a Stompa
Orks: The teased silhouette is a Mekboy in a Meksuit thats the same size as a Redemptor Dreadnought and will come in a boxset: new Mekboy, 20 Boyz, Stompa (yes that Stompa)
Interesting, thanks for the info! Some of my friends were talking about the possibility of a new Combat Patrol like the Space Marines got but I don't think that'll happen now we've seen the new Hachette set. Lucky for me I've always wanted a Stompa
Its pretty likely every new codex will get a new combat patrol as every codex until now got one and DA and Tau also have rumours for a new one. The Hachette CP series isn't really an indicator as the old CP rules could still be sued, fr example Admech got new rules for their new CP but still kept the old CP rules too
Matrindur wrote: Its pretty likely every new codex will get a new combat patrol as every codex until now got one and DA and Tau also have rumours for a new one. The Hachette CP series isn't really an indicator as the old CP rules could still be sued, fr example Admech got new rules for their new CP but still kept the old CP rules too
That'd be two new Ork box sets then, right? Either way looks like I'll be emptying my bank account
That'd be two new Ork box sets then, right? Either way looks like I'll be emptying my bank account
Yeah it's sounds like (though still unconfirmed) that some factions with just a single new model will get a Battleforce-style one-off box before the character gets released separately, similar to the recent AOS boxes. Then a long term combat patrol in addition to that.
I assume the goal is getting people to pick up both as an entry point in starting the faction.
Matrindur wrote: Its pretty likely every new codex will get a new combat patrol as every codex until now got one and DA and Tau also have rumours for a new one. The Hachette CP series isn't really an indicator as the old CP rules could still be sued, fr example Admech got new rules for their new CP but still kept the old CP rules too
That'd be two new Ork box sets then, right? Either way looks like I'll be emptying my bank account
Yes, wouldn't be strange too since both DA and Tau who have actual rumours about CPs also got an army set/has rumours about an army set
Hatchette magazines have changed before as well, not necessarily in content, but it has been changed mid run to have new models etc and the like.
I wouldn't write off the idea that the Hatchette combat patrols could be the newer combat patrols (if factions get newer ones) as by the time the magazines come around, with the space marine and tyranid one being first, the combat patrol may have been released by then.
Alternatively, it is just a good way for GW to shift a lot of the combat patrols they manufactured but didn't necessarily sell and they want to shift before the new combat patrols are released.
We got the gist of that before, but it only occurs to me now that Wolfwolf McMurderface has been dethroned as the edgelordiest 40k unit. Fittingly by a bunch of dudes in nightgowns. Take that, Space Woofs!
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Alternatively, it is just a good way for GW to shift a lot of the combat patrols they manufactured but didn't necessarily sell and they want to shift before the new combat patrols are released.
That was my initial thought too and would kinda make sense as to why they haven't been restocked anywhere (aside from their availability on warhammer.com).
What models did they change / add in previous magazines, just out of interest?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: I think it bears noting that they're releasing a new Combat Patrol for marines via White Dwarf.
So as someone suggested earlier, it could be that each faction will have 2 combat patrols to choose from going forward? The legacy / original one + new one?
Link here if anyone wants to read more - it's the old Space Marine combat patrol (minus the Impulsor) / Vanguard Task Force with the addition of a Phobos Librarian.
Considering GW have enough trouble keeping current models in stock I don't think there's this huge warehouse of unsold models that people keep imaging gets used for promotions like Hattchet Partworks or for the Christmas boxed sets.
All those things are cast, picked, packed, palleted and sent off fully as their own things. The time to make them is part of the GW production schedule. They aren't "overstock waste" from the GW system. It would be a waste for GW staffers to be paid to unbox and unpick items to then repack them up again.
Alternatively, it is just a good way for GW to shift a lot of the combat patrols they manufactured but didn't necessarily sell and they want to shift before the new combat patrols are released.
Seeing sprues are cast specifically for magazine that's neat trick.
Gw casts x sprues and same amount of sprues just vanish into thin air?
It's common myth discount boxes are unsold sprues "to get rid of". Just one problem with that. If gw wants 10000 discount box then spruns for 10000 are cast. Existing stock isn't ripped open and sprues thrown to discount boxes.
We got the gist of that before, but it only occurs to me now that Wolfwolf McMurderface has been dethroned as the edgelordiest 40k unit. Fittingly by a bunch of dudes in nightgowns. Take that, Space Woofs!
Oh, just you wait and see, deathwolf ghosttotem wolfhunter crusader fangclaws is just the beginning.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Alternatively, it is just a good way for GW to shift a lot of the combat patrols they manufactured but didn't necessarily sell and they want to shift before the new combat patrols are released.
Yea the myth of repackaging overstock should have been put to rest with Kill Team 2018 at the latest.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Alternatively, it is just a good way for GW to shift a lot of the combat patrols they manufactured but didn't necessarily sell and they want to shift before the new combat patrols are released.
Yea the myth of repackaging overstock should have been put to rest with Kill Team 2018 at the latest.
It should have been put to death years ago.
At the very best the closest you can get to it is that GW likely plans things like the Christmas boxed sets months in advance and will start doing casting runs and storing stock over a period of time so that it doesn't interrupt their normal release pattern and production too much. Heck between christmas and new editions and big events chances are there's a whole "big event" slot that just rotates between different projects in the production lineup
H.B.M.C. wrote: Given how much time their products spend being out of stock during the year, the idea that they make bundles out of surplus simply cannot be true.
Looking at my now nearly fully painted initial collection of Legions Imperialis? Ain’t that the truth.
And as has been said many time before? Struggling to meet demand is absolutely one of the nicer problems any manufacturer can have. But make no mistake it absolutely is a problem, and one they need to fix. Because impulse buys are a thing, and not being able to get hold of shiny new things, or a second, third or fourth box of not-so-shiny-new doesn’t mean we’ll spend that money on Something Else you offer, or even put it aside until later.
Heh, I got into it with a dude on Facebook who's convinced that GW spent the last 10 years sitting on massive stock of old whfb kits which they are now reboxing and releasing for sale.
The guy was very insistent on the plausibility of his "theory", despite gw themselves directly stating this was not the case on warcom.
chaos0xomega wrote: Heh, I got into it with a dude on Facebook who's convinced that GW spent the last 10 years sitting on massive stock of old whfb kits which they are now reboxing and releasing for sale.
The guy was very insistent on the plausibility of his "theory", despite gw themselves directly stating this was not the case on warcom.
I mean I guess I can see the guy's logic, but they just need to shift their mindset from stock to moulds and production assets. GW wasn't sitting on stock; they were sitting on the capacity and material to make stock for 10 years.
chaos0xomega wrote: Heh, I got into it with a dude on Facebook who's convinced that GW spent the last 10 years sitting on massive stock of old whfb kits which they are now reboxing and releasing for sale.
Even basic economics says that this is a bad idea. Holding masses of inventory has tax implications.
This means that:
1. GW were paying lots of tax on WHFB models in the hope they'd come back one day. 2. GW were illegally avoiding tax on that stock.
We got the gist of that before, but it only occurs to me now that Wolfwolf McMurderface has been dethroned as the edgelordiest 40k unit. Fittingly by a bunch of dudes in nightgowns. Take that, Space Woofs!
They're dipping into the high elf phoenix guard background. Not talking causes fear. Somehow.
Unfortunately, big sword guys on foot aren't anything to write home about. They already have to compete with terminators and blade guard (who probably have them soundly beat defensively).
Reasonably nice models though, so using them as a standard bearer and some converted sergeants might be worthwhile.
chaos0xomega wrote: Heh, I got into it with a dude on Facebook who's convinced that GW spent the last 10 years sitting on massive stock of old whfb kits which they are now reboxing and releasing for sale.
The guy was very insistent on the plausibility of his "theory", despite gw themselves directly stating this was not the case on warcom.
I mean I guess I can see the guy's logic, but they just need to shift their mindset from stock to moulds and production assets. GW wasn't sitting on stock; they were sitting on the capacity and material to make stock for 10 years.
I don't even see the logic
GW decided to kill of Warhammer Fantasy, they were not forced to do it or someone else decided for them
ignoring that plastic frames can be recycled, if there would have been a massive amount of stock, we would have seen a big release or event/campaign designed to sell of stock before they ended it and everything remaining carried over to the new game
and plastic sprues don't recycle well due to the type of plastic used. (they use polystyrene.. which has a recycling code of 6. the higher the # code, the harder it is to break it down for reuse, due to the more durable molecular structure of the plastic. most recycling programs don't accept anything higher than a 4.)
besides even if they did send them to a recycler, they'd get maybe a few pennies on the dollar in return. a major loss compared to the price of making them. and they'd lose more money in arranging shipping to the recyclers. so usually unsold stock is either handed over to a third party reseller, or just sent to landfill.
and i could see GW wanting to hold onto stock of WHFB stuff early on, since AoS was still young and the setting and rules fluctuating. while the Endtimes meant they couldn't easily just re-release WHFB, they could easily try to attract people to AoS by tweaking the rules to be more WHFB like and put those legacy factions in. as it was AoS caught on so they didn't need to.
kodos wrote: HIPS is easier to recycle as long as it is "pure" (EPS is more of a problem) and GW is doing in house recycling as far as we know, not selling it off
Fairly sure they said they donate it to charities etc for floor surfaces in kids playgrounds etc.
We got the gist of that before, but it only occurs to me now that Wolfwolf McMurderface has been dethroned as the edgelordiest 40k unit. Fittingly by a bunch of dudes in nightgowns. Take that, Space Woofs!
They're dipping into the high elf phoenix guard background. Not talking causes fear. Somehow.
Unfortunately, big sword guys on foot aren't anything to write home about. They already have to compete with terminators and blade guard (who probably have them soundly beat defensively).
Reasonably nice models though, so using them as a standard bearer and some converted sergeants might be worthwhile.
Agreed, the models are nice and a good source for veterans and sergeants and character conversions even if you don't want the unit itself.
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW don't sell old stock. It gets sent to landfill. It's been that way for decades.
They tried to sell off some stock in the past before throwing it away. When GW squatted Tomb Kings half a year into AoS, they put stock on last chance to buy and got rid of it almost instantaneously.
Plastic sprues can actually be ground down and used as a filler additive mixed with the pelletized virgin plastic for injection molding. They would do that in-factory as they would want to ensure that they weren't contaminating the mix with material from other manufacturers, as each company basically has their own proprietary plastic mixture.
chaos0xomega wrote: Plastic sprues can actually be ground down and used as a filler additive mixed with the pelletized virgin plastic for injection molding. They would do that in-factory as they would want to ensure that they weren't contaminating the mix with material from other manufacturers, as each company basically has their own proprietary plastic mixture.
Up to 5% shredded material is usus in the industry, though they could use more for stuff like their black bases (that includes all their PS with colour batches). That said this is usually done in-process and I doubt they transport sprues around the country - it's just too costly and PS isn't exactly expensive.
Geifer wrote: They tried to sell off some stock in the past before throwing it away. When GW squatted Tomb Kings half a year into AoS, they put stock on last chance to buy and got rid of it almost instantaneously.
Sorry, I should have been more specific: They don't put things on clearance/sale when they're going out of production. Anything that doesn't sell gets thrown away instead.
Geifer wrote: They tried to sell off some stock in the past before throwing it away. When GW squatted Tomb Kings half a year into AoS, they put stock on last chance to buy and got rid of it almost instantaneously.
Sorry, I should have been more specific: They don't put things on clearance/sale when they're going out of production. Anything that doesn't sell gets thrown away instead.
Are you sure? Most of the time these days (and in the last good few years even pre-pandemic) if something gets listed as "last chance" it normally sells out pretty fast on the GW store. About the only ones that might not were one or two duel army sets in the past. I seem to recall the Slaanesh and Khorne one and the Eldar and Dark Eldar ones hung around for a good long while (although I think the Slaanesh and Khorne got an extra large amount made because it was duel for 40K and AoS at the time); but otherwise most stuff set to "last chance" just vanishes from sale super fast.
chaos0xomega wrote: Plastic sprues can actually be ground down and used as a filler additive mixed with the pelletized virgin plastic for injection molding. They would do that in-factory as they would want to ensure that they weren't contaminating the mix with material from other manufacturers, as each company basically has their own proprietary plastic mixture.
Up to 5% shredded material is usus in the industry, though they could use more for stuff like their black bases (that includes all their PS with colour batches). That said this is usually done in-process and I doubt they transport sprues around the country - it's just too costly and PS isn't exactly expensive.
A friend (using the term loosely, more an acquaintance) who worked manufacturing for GW said in the past they would go 10% filler.
But again, it was mostly internally generated material such as leftover sprues from outdated product, test shots, defective/unsellable kits, leftovers from internal modeling projects (studio armies, etc.), etc. As you said, it didn't make sense for them to collect and ship the sprues from afar, doing so was not only more expensive but also more environmentally destructive than using non-recycled material. Which is why its surprising to see GW now has this recycling test pilot program. I'm guessing that maybe these are stores that GW delivers product to using its own fleet vehicles and they can return the sprues to the factory using their own trucks when they make their return trip in order to offset the cost and environmental impact.
Geifer wrote: They tried to sell off some stock in the past before throwing it away. When GW squatted Tomb Kings half a year into AoS, they put stock on last chance to buy and got rid of it almost instantaneously.
Sorry, I should have been more specific: They don't put things on clearance/sale when they're going out of production. Anything that doesn't sell gets thrown away instead.
My bad, I misunderstood. Yeah, GW seems to believe it's more advantageous to just dump unsold goods than to entice people with lower prices.
Overread wrote: Are you sure? Most of the time these days (and in the last good few years even pre-pandemic) if something gets listed as "last chance" it normally sells out pretty fast on the GW store. About the only ones that might not were one or two duel army sets in the past. I seem to recall the Slaanesh and Khorne one and the Eldar and Dark Eldar ones hung around for a good long while (although I think the Slaanesh and Khorne got an extra large amount made because it was duel for 40K and AoS at the time); but otherwise most stuff set to "last chance" just vanishes from sale super fast.
Just recently a whole bunch of low selling items (basically a lot of Warcry stuff, and things like the Infiltrator Kill-Team box) was recovered (somehow, I don't know the specifics - I only saw the photos) and sold off privately rather than going to landfill.
GW makes things that don't sell, and "Last Chance to Buy" isn't always their final destination.
And I said, this has been going on for years. I remember that as far back as 4th Edition, when the 3rd Ed starters were all being junked, even though they contained completely current kits.
Geifer wrote: They tried to sell off some stock in the past before throwing it away. When GW squatted Tomb Kings half a year into AoS, they put stock on last chance to buy and got rid of it almost instantaneously.
Sorry, I should have been more specific: They don't put things on clearance/sale when they're going out of production. Anything that doesn't sell gets thrown away instead.
Are you sure? Most of the time these days (and in the last good few years even pre-pandemic) if something gets listed as "last chance" it normally sells out pretty fast on the GW store. About the only ones that might not were one or two duel army sets in the past. I seem to recall the Slaanesh and Khorne one and the Eldar and Dark Eldar ones hung around for a good long while (although I think the Slaanesh and Khorne got an extra large amount made because it was duel for 40K and AoS at the time); but otherwise most stuff set to "last chance" just vanishes from sale super fast.
My understanding is that if its still good (ie - current) product in an unsold bundle box they do repackage the sprues into individual kits - the individual kits have more value than the bundle does so the cost of labor to do so is justified on that basis. Same like when a codex or battletome gets updated and they re-release kits in new packaging - if there is a significant amount of old inventory they oftentimes do repackage the unsold old kits into new boxes rather than throwing them out because they are in the wrong box, though the way they conduct business its rare for that to happen as they try to sell out the existing inventory from their stocks prior to the rerelease.
What they don't do is take excess inventory and repackage them into bundles - the individual kits will usually sell eventually and carry a higher value than the bundle, so theres not a business justification to invest the labor into repackaging them to sell at a lower cost. If the individual kits don't sell they go to landfill and become a tax loss.
chaos0xomega wrote: Plastic sprues can actually be ground down and used as a filler additive mixed with the pelletized virgin plastic for injection molding. They would do that in-factory as they would want to ensure that they weren't contaminating the mix with material from other manufacturers, as each company basically has their own proprietary plastic mixture.
Up to 5% shredded material is usus in the industry, though they could use more for stuff like their black bases (that includes all their PS with colour batches). That said this is usually done in-process and I doubt they transport sprues around the country - it's just too costly and PS isn't exactly expensive.
A friend (using the term loosely, more an acquaintance) who worked manufacturing for GW said in the past they would go 10% filler.
But again, it was mostly internally generated material such as leftover sprues from outdated product, test shots, defective/unsellable kits, leftovers from internal modeling projects (studio armies, etc.), etc. As you said, it didn't make sense for them to collect and ship the sprues from afar, doing so was not only more expensive but also more environmentally destructive than using non-recycled material. Which is why its surprising to see GW now has this recycling test pilot program. I'm guessing that maybe these are stores that GW delivers product to using its own fleet vehicles and they can return the sprues to the factory using their own trucks when they make their return trip in order to offset the cost and environmental impact.
Wasn't that program not just for downcycling (producing plastic products with inferior quality standards) by another company? I mean, sending packaged kits back would be okay I guess, but I wouldn't use collected empty sprues for anything in the factory - far too much risk of schlieren and foreign material.
I dont know, I haven't looked into or heard anything about the recycling program beyond knowing that it exists. Downcycling would be a safer use but I'm not sure to what extent that would be actually... helpful? Like the environmental impact of driving around to collect relatively small containers of sprues is surely worse than the impact of just disposing those sprues normally.
Funny how it claims objectives are hard to wrest from ravenwing now due to outriders being battleline when battleline just gives you more units to field.
tneva82 wrote: Funny how it claims objectives are hard to wrest from ravenwing now due to outriders being battleline when battleline just gives you more units to field.
I suspect that's partly because you can add Ravenwing Command squads to Outrider squads because of the new character keyword on the champ.
Suddenly, there's 12 model bike squads roaming around, with defensive strats.
Plus a uniquely horrible aesthetic mix of the antique bike models on the Black knights and the grossly oversized Outrider bikes.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I thought I heard a distant, slightly lazy racially stereotyped wailing and gnashing of teeth from White Scars players.
Remember, space marine nonsense means White Scars can use these detachments. They just can't use any White Scar specific units (hah) when they do.
Except then they are by definition dark angel army. Your chapter keyword will be dark angel.
Of course you can play your white scar models as dark angels. Just like you can play your bloody rose models as bloody martys or night lords as alpha legion. Just like for decade or two.
I think white scars fans have by now realized that they are the red-headed bastard stepchildren of the space marine codex and have been reduced to being another milquetoast Codex compliant chapter. If they want to play WS properly they've taken their armies to HH where they get the respect they deserve.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think white scars fans have by now realized that they are the red-headed bastard stepchildren of the space marine codex and have been reduced to being another milquetoast Codex compliant chapter. If they want to play WS properly they've taken their armies to HH where they get the respect they deserve.
One advantage of having been around so long (with a hiatus for 7 / 8th), to me they always have been a codex chapter.
When I came in around 4th, White Scars were mostly presented as a bike chapter. I don't know if they were labeled as Codex non-compliant/deviant, but the overwhelming depiction is that they mostly rode around fighting from bikes. I found it weird later when they started depicting them as not-bikers.
No different than Iron Hands. Iron Hands had a full supplement detailing how their companies were each independent, more like Space Wolves and could attach terminators to other units as champions.
Then all of a sudden they are codex compliant and the one tiny piece they kept was the concept of an Iron Council. They don't even have proper Iron Father units anymore.
I am a bit confused. Is there two different attributes/special rules, one called Masters of maneuver (plural) and another called Master of maneuver (singular)?
Voss wrote: Also HBMC gets a wish granted- the detachment alters Battleline- its added to Outriders
But presumably not Deathwing in the Deathwing detachment...
Haven't seen that detachment yet. I'd hope that the same codex would work the same way. Its weird enough to have a paradigm shift this soon, with only a few armies with 10th edition books.
Flinty wrote: I am a bit confused. Is there two different attributes/special rules, one called Masters of maneuver (plural) and another called Master of maneuver (singular)?
Looks like it - Detachment rule vs. enhancement. And, yes, that seems daft.
I just can't help but think that the biggest reason Age of Sigmar caught on is because it was the 'official' GW fantasy game. While the system is clearly much-improved since release (locals still tell campfire stories about daisy-chaining daemon summoning), it still feels a vastly inferior game to me compared to WHFB. My two biggest dislikes from the first edition are still present: the potential for a double turn, and the stupid random terrain effects.
chaos0xomega wrote: When I came in around 4th, White Scars were mostly presented as a bike chapter. I don't know if they were labeled as Codex non-compliant/deviant, but the overwhelming depiction is that they mostly rode around fighting from bikes. I found it weird later when they started depicting them as not-bikers.
Well coming from 2nd ed, I saw them all as codex compliant, even the BA and DA. Only the wolves were considered rebellious enough to have a different structure.
The changes to the codex in angels of death were so minor that they looked like codex compliant chapters.
iirc the only unique units for the BA were death company and veteran assault marines (ultramarines only had vet tac marines iirc).
The DA got immune to psychology on all inner circle (deathwing) models, so all captains and chaplains. They got a ravenwing captain (his only difference from a normal DA captain was he had the ravenwing jink and rider rules, and could mount a land speeder as its driver - normal DA captains could still take a bike).
Deathwing and ravenwing were given special rules, but replaced the standard version of those units in the army (and apart from their special rules were indistinguishable from codex versions). And DA lost veteran squads entirely, because the 1st company only deployed in terminator armour.
White scars appeared in the ultramarines codex along with iron hands.
It wasn't until the index astartes that the white scars looked any different from the codex.
Was excited for inner circle companions but wow that lore is so bad I may skip them. Some of the worst lore I have ever read. 40k needs to step up the writing a bit.
The article pretty clearly puts Talonmasters out of business.
A pretty big reason I don’t like 10th…. My greenwing are old school, and I have a lot of Ravenwing old school. Slowly adding newer DA units but still prefer my older models.
Boosykes wrote: Was excited for inner circle companions but wow that lore is so bad I may skip them. Some of the worst lore I have ever read. 40k needs to step up the writing a bit.
The lore about then is in The Lion's BL novel, and is interesting. GW are just being cute about it in the Warcom articles.
The DA got immune to psychology on all inner circle (deathwing) models, so all captains and chaplains. They got a ravenwing captain (his only difference from a normal DA captain was he had the ravenwing jink and rider rules, and could mount a land speeder as its driver - normal DA captains could still take a bike).
Deathwing and ravenwing were given special rules, but replaced the standard version of those units in the army (and apart from their special rules were indistinguishable from codex versions). And DA lost veteran squads entirely, because the 1st company only deployed in terminator armour.
There were some more differences. Landspeeders had different weapons (heavy bolter and assault cannon instead of multi-melta and heavy flamer), they and attack bikes could be fielded as squadrons and were bought from the unit section, not as support, you don't needed a Techmarine for them and RW bike squads couldn't take an additional attack bike.
The DA got immune to psychology on all inner circle (deathwing) models, so all captains and chaplains. They got a ravenwing captain (his only difference from a normal DA captain was he had the ravenwing jink and rider rules, and could mount a land speeder as its driver - normal DA captains could still take a bike).
Deathwing and ravenwing were given special rules, but replaced the standard version of those units in the army (and apart from their special rules were indistinguishable from codex versions). And DA lost veteran squads entirely, because the 1st company only deployed in terminator armour.
There were some more differences. Landspeeders had different weapons (heavy bolter and assault cannon instead of multi-melta and heavy flamer), they and attack bikes could be fielded as squadrons and were bought from the unit section, not as support, you don't needed a Techmarine for them and RW bike squads couldn't take an additional attack bike.
Man, now I need to find the Codex Angels of Death and reread it. This was a lovely trip down memory lane.
Shakalooloo wrote: It was mainly down to Paul 'Fat Bloke' Sawyer championing them in White Dwarf that got them enough attention to diversify from the codex a little.
The Mokey's Paw in full effect there. Paul Sawyer loved his Dreadnoughts. Then when White Scars got their own special snowflake rules, they couldn't take Dreadnoughts!
Shakalooloo wrote: It was mainly down to Paul 'Fat Bloke' Sawyer championing them in White Dwarf that got them enough attention to diversify from the codex a little.
The Mokey's Paw in full effect there. Paul Sawyer loved his Dreadnoughts. Then when White Scars got their own special snowflake rules, they couldn't take Dreadnoughts!
Didn’t he come up with the dreadtaur? You know the Rhino with a Dreadnought in place of the crew compartment… which, now I think about it, clearly evolved into the Defiler.
I thought he'd converted some form of flat-bed Rhino to use as a transport for his Dreadnoughts - possibly using the VDR kit, back in t'day - but I could be wrong on that.
If so, you could argue that eventually evolved into the Impulsor...
He could lost it in 
