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Deadshane1 wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:It's a ridiculous metagame codex, full of

Awwwwwww....


Another Chicken Little here gentlemen, just like we had with the wolves, BA, DE, and every other codex before it came out.

Note the general lack of surprise in pretty much anyone...

UberhAxTHC wrote:I'm saying it because it's true.

No... Its made up... Its not real... Its a game.

Just so you know.

Going by that, if it's a game, then it's something. If it's something, then it's real. If it's real, it exists. Do you hold your codex up and read about nothing? Do you go on these forums and post about nothing? No, you're talking about a game here, a game, something that exists and is real, with actual physical proof of existence with rules and models. And the stories that go with them? Just as real as you want them to be. Although it would be a little easier, if the damn stories actually made sense.

UberhAxTHC wrote:Going by that, if it's a game, then it's something. If it's something, then it's real. If it's real, it exists. Do you hold your codex up and read about nothing? Do you go on these forums and post about nothing? No, you're talking about a game here, a game, something that exists and is real, with actual physical proof of existence with rules and models. And the stories that go with them? Just as real as you want them to be. Although it would be a little easier, if the damn stories actually made sense.

They do make sense...

Mukkin'About wrote:
I could go on a rant about how it's silly to shoot down every aspect of a model yet still buy it at the end of the day because it's in the book and it's the most competitive option.
I think that a lot of people are hating it just because. Maybe I just don't care enough to nitpick it. Maybe i'm just not willing to find reasons to hate everything GW puts out lately.
What my point is that, if you guys hate the minis so much and have such problems with the rules.. why do you even play?

And then, when the mud doesn't stick, you puff up your arguments with as much straw as possible. We call these types of arguments 'strawman' arguments.

1. '... but still buy it at the end of the day... the most competitive option'.

I don't remember saying that I would buy it because it was the most competitive option? In fact, I don't remember saying that I was going to buy it at all. If you're going to attempt to paint all of those criticising the Dreadknight with the same brush, make sure you pick the right colour...

2. 'Maybe i'm just not willing to find reasons to hate everything GW puts out lately.'

One of the easiest logical fallacies one can enact during a discussion such as this is exaggeration. Put a lot of straw into your opponent's words (ie. exaggerate their words) until the concept is so absurd that it's easy to beat down. This is a fine example of such a thing. I - and once again Mukkin'About you are replying to me, and no one else, which must mean you see me as guilty of what you claim - have said nothing about hating 'everything' that GW has put out lately. In fact, my initial response to the new GK models was overwhelmingly positive. I have criticism of a few aspects of the PAGK's, and a lot of criticisms of the Dreadknight, but none of these can be combined or construed as '[hating] everything GW [has put] out lately'.

The other interesting part of above the quote is the use of the word 'find'. This is another method of dismissing someone else's point of view rather than making counter points. If you purport what they think to be imaginary (ie. they had to 'find/invent/make up' reasons for their views) then it allows you to dismiss them as 'not real' rather than actually looking for reasons why they are wrong. Well done Mukkin'About - I almost missed that one.

3. 'I think that a lot of people are hating it just because.'

What a stellar example of critical thinking. Bravo.

4. 'What my point is that, if you guys hate the minis so much and have such problems with the rules.. why do you even play?'

Ahh! The pièce de résistance! The most tired and trotted out attempt at an argument you'll ever see at Dakka (outside of the YMDC forum that is). "If you don't like it, why do you play." Of course applying any level of logic to such a line of thinking will show just what a feeble line it is. Why? Because the logical opposite of 'if you don't like it don't play' is 'you must like everything in order to play'.

Let's take this flimsy bit of logic - the most desperate of desperate arguments - and apply it to some other situations shall we:

I love Stargate. Stargate has LOADS of really crappy episodes. By your logic, if I don't like those episodes, I should stop watching the show, right? I mean, that's what happens when we take the 'if you don't like/then don't use' line of logic and apply it there?

What about Dawn of War? I like playing Dawn of War. There are aspects of the game though that infuriate me and detract from the gaming experience. Should I stop playing altogether? These things annoy me. I don't like them. And if I don't like them, I should stop playing - yes? That's the point we're making here, correct?

No. Of course it's not. Because there's no point to be made. "If you don't like it then stop playing" is about the most straw-filled strawman you can say around these parts. It's meaningless, it has no substance to it (besides the easy-to-attack straw filling), and doesn't make any sense. It makes the core assumption that because one doesn't like one thing, or two things, or ten things, that this person must obviously hate EVERYTHING, and that's a complete load of nonsense.

Mukkin'About, not everyone likes everything in equal measure. It is possible for someone to like something, but find flaws in what they like. I don't like the Dreadknight. I don't see that as a good enough reason for me to stop playing the game. Think that over, ok?

Are you kidding me? Did you read this forum?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347540.page

UberhAxTHC wrote:Are you kidding me? Did you read this forum?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347540.page

Of course the thread that was blatantly kidding about the GK Codex...

How bout this one then?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

Oh shoosh UberhAxTHX! The doom and gloom routine is getting old. Codex Creep exists, units are made better to sell more models, and nothing is actually balanced (not the core rules, not the Codices). None of this is new. It is the same routine we go through every time a new Codex comes out. This one is not more 'broken' or more 'powerful' than any other new Codex - within 3 months the same netdeck lists will fill the tournaments, and life will continue.

It's really not that big a deal.

And for the record, any 'complaint' thread started by Kyoto is not a real complaint thread.

UberhAxTHC wrote:
What you're saying implies that the Imperium has scarce to limited resources. They don't. They rule the freaking galaxy. I'm not saying this because I'm an Imperium fan, I actually play Chaos. I'm saying it because it's true. They craft titans and ships that dwarf planets. Are you seriously telling me that they couldn't scrap one titan to make enough of these teleporters for an army? Because personally, I think it would be no problem for them. Which is why I find the things so stupid in the first place. They break fluff, just like the rest of the terribly codex...

Yeah, because sending non-Grey Knights through the warp to another position sounds really clever, right? And yes, I know they do it to terminators already, but not that often. The Omperium simply doesn't have any interest in getting their armies corrupted by Chaos. Whoa, wait a minute! Did I just prove that this was completely reasonable within the existing fluff? NO WAY!

I don't actually have a problem with their rules...well, besides the teleporting grey knights that count as jump infantry, because, well...
I have a problem with codex gk tearing apart the fluff of chaos even more than the last chaos codex did. You carved his name into Mortarion's heart? Are you serious? Did he stand there and let you?!

UberhAxTHC wrote:How bout this one then?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

Yep...
Draigo is a badass.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:
What you're saying implies that the Imperium has scarce to limited resources. They don't. They rule the freaking galaxy. I'm not saying this because I'm an Imperium fan, I actually play Chaos. I'm saying it because it's true. They craft titans and ships that dwarf planets. Are you seriously telling me that they couldn't scrap one titan to make enough of these teleporters for an army? Because personally, I think it would be no problem for them. Which is why I find the things so stupid in the first place. They break fluff, just like the rest of the terribly codex...

Yeah, because sending non-Grey Knights through the warp to another position sounds really clever, right? And yes, I know they do it to terminators already, but not that often. The Omperium simply doesn't have any interest in getting their armies corrupted by Chaos. Whoa, wait a minute! Did I just prove that this was completely reasonable within the existing fluff? NO WAY!

Not really, seeing as how you have no proof that the teleport homers actually send them through the warp...and like you said, terminators do it in small bursts all the time, which is exactly what these guys are doing. Plus, the teleport move doesn't follow the rules for deep strike, which if it sent them through the warp, I would feel would have to be the case...

UberhAxTHC wrote:I don't actually have a problem with their rules...well, besides the teleporting grey knights that count as jump infantry, because, well...
I have a problem with codex gk tearing apart the fluff of chaos even more than the last chaos codex did. You carved his name into Mortarion's heart? Are you serious? Did he stand there and let you?!

I'd assume he beat the out of him first.

Well there we can agree. I don't hate the GK Codex because of its rules - it invalidated my army, sure, but beyond that I don't really give a toss whether the GK's are the new Necrons or the new Leafblower. What I do care about is the fluff (and what Matt Ward's done to it) and the models (which I mostly like).

For some people here that's the start of a healthy conversation. For others it's a chance to trot out the "If you don't like it stop playing you whining hater!!!" nonsense.

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:How bout this one then?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

Yep...
Draigo is a badass.

It's good that you have that attitude about him...but I'm betting you're not a chaos player, or even like chaos for that matter. This guy is a huge middle finger to every CSM or Daemon player in the game right now, straight from Matt Ward...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:I don't actually have a problem with their rules...well, besides the teleporting grey knights that count as jump infantry, because, well...
I have a problem with codex gk tearing apart the fluff of chaos even more than the last chaos codex did. You carved his name into Mortarion's heart? Are you serious? Did he stand there and let you?!

I'd assume he beat the out of him first.

So he had the chance to kill him, and he does this instead? So he's slowed on top of everything else?

UberhAxTHC wrote:

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:How bout this one then?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352292.page

Yep...
Draigo is a badass.

It's good that you have that attitude about him...but I'm betting you're not a chaos player, or even like chaos for that matter. This guy is a huge middle finger to every CSM or Daemon player in the game right now, straight from Matt Ward...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:I don't actually have a problem with their rules...well, besides the teleporting grey knights that count as jump infantry, because, well...
I have a problem with codex gk tearing apart the fluff of chaos even more than the last chaos codex did. You carved his name into Mortarion's heart? Are you serious? Did he stand there and let you?!

I'd assume he beat the out of him first.

So he had the chance to kill him, and he does this instead? So he's slowed on top of everything else?

I really like Chaos. The Alpha Legion are my favorite Legion with Night Lords pulling 2nd place.
His fluff is like a lot of fluff, it's OTT but this is Sci-Fantasy not Sci-Fi.
Sometimes sending a message is more important than killing a god.
Sometimes that message is "I could have killed you but instead i decided to write my name on your heart. Never forget i can do that."

Also, a bad idea. I want Draigo dead at the hands of Mortarion himself. Now. And if we're getting characters so OTT now, why don't we have primarchs as playable SC now? I've seen so many custom built models for Fulgrim...it would be so nice to field him. XD

Whoops, scratch that. Just looked him up, and apparently Fulgrim is sealed inside of a painting of himself...no fun taking a painting to war, now is it? Although that does seem awfully Slaanesh like to do so...

UberhAxTHC wrote:Also, a bad idea. I want Draigo dead at the hands of Mortarion himself. Now. And if we're getting characters so OTT now, why don't we have primarchs as playable SC now? I've seen so many custom built models for Fulgrim...it would be so nice to field him. XD

Whoops, scratch that. Just looked him up, and apparently Fulgrim is sealed inside of a painting of himself...no fun taking a painting to war, now is it? Although that does seem awfully Slaanesh like to do so...

OTT fluff not OTT rules.
BA have Space Jesus and Totally-not-Daemon
SW have pretty much all their characters with odd fluff.
Guard have Arnie and Marbo with a sprinkle of that strangest of internet memes.
Chaos get Kharn and Scooby-doo.
SM have Mac and his fists of fury.
Etc etc across the armies.
This is just the fluff remember so no shouting at me 'cos so and so is rubbish or underpowered.

Vargtass wrote:

"Autobots, engage!"

This... is the epitome of GW failure. And I thought the Stormraven was bad. What next, orks with wings? A titan in the form of a space marine? a gigantic gun on a wee metal horse? seriously? If GW continues like this, I might just find and switch over to another sci fi range.

Guard have Yarrick....
who cut a Warboss arm and stick into his own arm, he also can lift the arm and make it function

we have to accept , Sometime Fluff won't make sense

Retrias wrote:Guard have Yarrick....
who cut a Warboss arm and stick into his own arm, he also can lift the arm and make it function

we have to accept , Sometime Fluff won't make sense

As long as the miniatures created make sense when visualised, that's fine by me. As long as GW keeps Transformers out of their miniature lies, that's also fine by me. I just feel this. What's it gonna cost? around 50 euro's? Ech.

Matt Ward sucks. Period. Seems every codex he does gets more rediculos than the previous.

At this rate, the last codex to be redone, will be 1 page, with 1 model, with stats of 11 and a special rule, you field this you win automatically.

F'n Ward. Wish this ahole would disapear.

Rumor has it, he's had his filthy hands on the new Necrons codex.

It's only the marine codices though, give him a non-marine one and it would probably suck pretty badly.

UberhAxTHC wrote:This guy is a huge middle finger to every CSM or Daemon player in the game right now, straight from Matt Ward...

Ummmm...

GOOD.

That's basically the point of Grey Knights to begin with. It's a last FU from the Emperor before ascending to the Golden Toilet.

As a CSM, Daemon, AND GK player, they needed a character who was more than just Brother-Captain "I'm doomed to eternally fight against this one Lord of Change repeatedly" Stern. As someone stated earlier, he's the Grand Master of the greatest Astartes chapter, badassery is a requirement.

what are you complaining about, the dreadknight looks awesome. (even if it does LOOk a bit like a APU). Terminators as troops??? so what? Of course Kaldor draigo is... chuck norris , matt wards fault.

H.B.M.C. wrote: Lecture on internet arguments

Grats for totally blowing a half-ass reply out of proportion and taking it as a personal attack... and then completely tearing me a new ass. I know you're a highly respected dakka user, but did you really have to take out all your pent up frustrations out on me??
I'm sorry, alright? i read it all over very carefully and i see the point you've gone to great lengths to make. I'll make sure that i refrain from making generalizations. And i'll brush up on my latin

UberhAxTHC wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

UberhAxTHC wrote:
What you're saying implies that the Imperium has scarce to limited resources. They don't. They rule the freaking galaxy. I'm not saying this because I'm an Imperium fan, I actually play Chaos. I'm saying it because it's true. They craft titans and ships that dwarf planets. Are you seriously telling me that they couldn't scrap one titan to make enough of these teleporters for an army? Because personally, I think it would be no problem for them. Which is why I find the things so stupid in the first place. They break fluff, just like the rest of the terribly codex...

Yeah, because sending non-Grey Knights through the warp to another position sounds really clever, right? And yes, I know they do it to terminators already, but not that often. The Omperium simply doesn't have any interest in getting their armies corrupted by Chaos. Whoa, wait a minute! Did I just prove that this was completely reasonable within the existing fluff? NO WAY!

Not really, seeing as how you have no proof that the teleport homers actually send them through the warp...and like you said, terminators do it in small bursts all the time, which is exactly what these guys are doing. Plus, the teleport move doesn't follow the rules for deep strike, which if it sent them through the warp, I would feel would have to be the case...

Oh, my bad. I forgot that logic has no place in fluff-discussion...

Mark1130 wrote:
Rumor has it, he's had his filthy hands on the new Necrons codex.

Get ready for your Gauss Warriors with Gauss Rifles that can buy Gauss Gaussfists and Gauss Gaussgrenades. Now, they can teleport anywhere on the field through the Gauss Portal from the Gauss Matrix of the Gauss Monogauss. I mean. . monolith.

Retrias wrote:Guard have Yarrick....
who cut a Warboss arm and stick into his own arm, he also can lift the arm and make it function

we have to accept , Sometime Fluff won't make sense

Er no. He cut off a Warboss' powerklaw and had it surgically grafted to an augmetic arm--replacing the arm that he'd had severed by that Warboss.

Why? Because Yarrick's entire schtick is that he's an 'expert' on Orkish psychology. He knows that if Orks see 'dat 'umie wif da Boss' klaw!' they'll be far more terrified than the 'Oi, dat 'umie's got a funny fing on 'is arm' reaction he'd get with an augmetic arm.

Hell: he had his left eye replaced with a laser just for that purpose.