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Vaktathi wrote:Before EA was a much bigger deal as it occurred on every penetrating hit and smoke launchers were extra, but now with smoke launchers on everything for free and pen' stunned only occurs on one result, why pay 15pts to mitigate something that occurs only 1/6 times?

Wait, what? I thought smoke launchers were going to be 5pts a model. Did somone say they're free?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

JB wrote:Two things about the current Codex made Mech Infantry less than desirable:
1. The point cost of Chimeras
2. The requirement to buy every single guard infantry unit a Chimera if you choose the Mechanized doctrine
The combination of these two conditions made the list less fun and less competitive

So you're really just complaining about current competitiveness of Mech Guard, not playability or options? OK, but the new Chimeras won't be so much better, as Guard will now be paying 15 pts for Extra Armor to make Mech work.

Now that may be a little harsh DD. I think, if you actually READ the whole post, that you will find that JB is actually happy because the new Mech Guard will be better. It will be IMO.

Sigh... I actually thought they would make snipers decent in this 'dex. Guess not...

-A.

Raxmei wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Before EA was a much bigger deal as it occurred on every penetrating hit and smoke launchers were extra, but now with smoke launchers on everything for free and pen' stunned only occurs on one result, why pay 15pts to mitigate something that occurs only 1/6 times?

Wait, what? I thought smoke launchers were going to be 5pts a model. Did somone say they're free?

Middle posted that the Chimeras got their turret weapon, hull weapon, smoke, and a searchlight as part of their 55 point basic cost. So the only point upgrades that you have to mull over are extra armor, camouflage, dozer blade, pintle weapon, and the hunter killer missle. My decision was to stay with bare bones 55 point Chimeras. YMMV.

I never saw the need to take Chimeras on everything as much of a problem, as I didn't design a list and then add Chimeras to all the units that had to have them, I designed the list with the Chimeras already there. So if there was ever something that would not benefit from a Chimera, or where having a Chimera would just be a points sink, I didn't take that unit.

I know that sounds obvious, but given that with 6-8 Chimeras on the table all your anti-infantry needs were taken care of, there wasn't much reason to bring all the HW units I used to take. If I ever needed to bulk up model count without bringing more Chimeras I'd throw 30 Conscripts in.

And I never took Extra Armour on my regular Chimeras in my 'Mech Inf armies. Across 8 Chimeras that's 40 points. You can get a lot in a Guard army for 40 points (or could get - it seems options have been overpriced like mad in Arby's Codex, so we'll soon see how far 40 points stretches). EA went on my Demolishers - they had to keep moving - and maybe the odd vehicle that I knew had to get somewhere (Hellhounds, Special Weapon Squad Chimeras), but otherwise they were points better spent elsewhere.

I mean think of 8 Chimeras with Smoke and EA. That (was) 64 points. That's a Command Squad w/4 Flamers right there. Much rather have that than EA/Smoke for a bunch of vehicles that probably weren't going to be moving much all game, and usually hiding in cover anyway!

Yes, I'll agree that Chimeras were overpriced (and still are... worth 45 with AV10 sides... 55 with AV11 sides), and a reduction in cost would have meant for more rounded armies, but I don't think there's any difference in this Codex and the previous one when it comes to 'allowing' you to field such an army. They'll just be different armies.

@HBMC

You make several good points. I'll admit that the type of mech company that I would like to see is a typical triad company with a HQ and three line platoons including some type of fire support squad in each platoon and supported by company mortars. This type of list is prohibitively expensive in the current codex but is possible with the new one.

This type of company, while fun, is not likely to be very competitive, but I'll give it a whirl anyway once I get enough Chimeras and another infantry platoon. In the meantime, I'm ramping up with a smaller more elite list as a stepping stone.

So perhaps, I'm more interested in a "fluffy" mech company than a hard as nails version?

My fav army was the Armoured Cavalry list from IA1 (I think it was IA1). With that you could do equal parts tanks and infantry.

I took a 3000 point list that had 8 Russes, a big platoon with 6 Chimeras, two Enginseers with their own Chimeras (so they could keep repairing stuff) and a Macharius. Loads of fun.

I am actually looking forward to bulking up my Chimera count. Currently I only have a few, but w/ the new codex, I may start taking many more.

A HWS of 3HB runs 75pts, a Chimera w/ a HS runs 65pts, puts out roughly the same dakka and is mobile. The only thing the HWS has going for it is that it is a scoring unit. But w/ a mounted unit in the chimera, it is to.

With Chimeras instead of firesupport squads, and Vendettas instead of antitank squads, unless you're maxing out the FOC, there wont be much need for HWS :( Unless you're really low on scoring units, or want to make a firebase w/ your CCS giving orders...

Anyone planning on running HWS still?


PS.

Anyone planning on take Hellhounds? For 130 would you rather have one hellhound or 2 Chimeras with HS?

BoxANT wrote:Anyone planning on running HWS still?

Anyone planning on take Hellhounds?

If you already own HWS, and need to soak 100-odd points into a Scoring Unit, it's not a horrible thing.

If you already own HH models, then, again, not terrible.

I'll be running HH's and chimeras. no reason to decide which to run! sure, that's a few less guardsmen but those fragile little gak faces never did me any good anyways, I just wish I had spent the time painting my stormtroopers that I had spent painting 100+ guardsmen!

Those 'fragile little gak faces' are your only troops.

I don't know, it's a hard balance.

On one hand you want to take plenty of armor to dilute the effectiveness of your enemies anti tank weapons, and to maximize one of guard's best strengths (our ordnance).

But on the other hand, our infantry keeps our tanks alive (keeping melee/meltas away!) and they're our only scoring units.

Have too little men, and they'll be able to close the gap and pop our armor, or kill off our ability to score.

Have too little armor, and we might lack the pure crushing hammertastic firepower that is the guard!

And on top of that, we need some form of transport (chimera/valk) because we can no longer DS platoons on objectives.


All I know is that the point "savings" I was hoping for in the new codex don't seem to be making much of an impact...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Just a question about the picture that BoxANT posted. He didn't know, so maybe someone here will:

Does anyone know what the tiles being used in this pic are from? They're not Space Hulk tiles, so I'm wondering where they originated?

Thanks!

BoxANT wrote:

The tiles are from the FFG's Doom (the) boardgame. You can probably get a good look of the game components if you search through the ffg website. Boardgamegeek.com should have some pics at least if the manufacturer's site delivers fail.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=34

Migsula: Valkries and Vendettas are squadrons of 1-3 ( No mixing types in a squadron. Seperate choices )

There is no limit to the amount of squadrons you may take. Fill out your three fast attack if you wish.



Hellfurys on the Vendetta ignore cover saves. A potential reason to swap out your TL lascannons. That bits not in the french faq, like the Colossus' Cannon ignoring cover.



As for Chenkov. He removes units of consripts so long as they are still alive at the start of his turn ( Note that there are no liminations to being tied up in cc )

They walk on the board from reserves in your next turn. ( Not the turn you make them disappear )

Chaoslord wrote:The tiles are from the FFG's Doom (the) boardgame. You can probably get a good look of the game components if you search through the ffg website. Boardgamegeek.com should have some pics at least if the manufacturer's site delivers fail.

Ah, thank you.

I've checked boardgame geek and there doesn't seem to be a picture that just shows the contents. And the FFG sight is useless for these sorts of things as well.

They do look like nice tiles though...

Regarding Chenkov, I just noticed that on Warseer that he has a pretty interesting special rule to go with the Conscript recycle.

“Onwards you dogs!”: Units in 12" get Stubborn.

Sacrificial conscript platoons are much more likely to survive to be recycled that way.

is lumbering behemoth confirmed?

middle wrote:
Hellfurys on the Vendetta ignore cover saves. A potential reason to swap out your TL lascannons. That bits not in the french faq, like the Colossus' Cannon ignoring cover.

How much was that other tank that had the no-cover save blast again?

As for Chenkov. He removes units of consripts so long as they are still alive at the start of his turn ( Note that there are no liminations to being tied up in cc )
They walk on the board from reserves in your next turn. ( Not the turn you make them disappear )

Amazing.

Question-

Basic platoon squads can be joined to form 20-50 man single units decided at deployment.

Every basic troop may now take a chimera, from what I understand.

Does this mean that if you bought all of the squads in the platoon a transport and then joined the unit, during deployment, that the chimeras deploy as a squadron?

This would theoretically make for 30 gaurdsmen+ 3 chimeras= 2KP

Could the joining up function be why valk/vendettas are available in squadron form?


Just playing with some ideas

If so then no need for extra armor.

I would assume you can't ameobatise squads with chimers. Thus mech guard is as kp heavy as always... almost.

Does anyone have any additional insight into the amoeba rule? Can you join five separate squads into a squad of 30 and a squad of 20 for example? Or is it five separate squads or one giant squad and nothing in between?

stonefox: Colossus is 140pts. 24"-240" S6 Ap3 Ordnance 1. Large blast. Barrage. Ignores cover saves.

focusedfire: Say you take 5 squads in your platoon and you merge them ( One big 50 or a 30 and a 20 makes no difference ). Their transports remain as single dedicated transports. Nothing in the merging squads rule for free squadrons. Nice idea though.

Kujo: You can ameoba any way you want in multiples of ten ( whole squads ). 10 and 40. 20 and 30. 10 and 10 and 30. Anything you can think of. Completely up to you. Each amoeba squad gives 1Kp. The Platoon Command Squad may not amoeba and so must remain on it's own.

Platoon Commanders and Company Commanders are no longer IC's so their command squads are only worth 1Kp.

With stats like that the colossus seems like it will be a better investment than the basilisk - weaker against armor, but there are more effiecient ways of killing tanks than with your artillery anyway.

They still wound marines on a 2+, have a shorter minimun range, AND deny cover with ap3 to boot. I was thinking of going with 4 griffons (if nothing else just for the pleasure of bringing 6+ templates to the table), but maybe I should think about the colossus instead. What do you IG vets and mathhammer nuts have to say about it?

Colossus is indirect fire ONLY though, yes? That's a deal breaker for me. Once they're inside 24", you're screwed.

With any indirect fire, you can choose to direct fire and ignore the minimum range. Don't have the page number but it's in the BRB IIRC.

I like the colossus, the problem is that it's really good at something that the IG, in general, are already pretty good at: dealing with 3+ saves. We have basic pie plates when they're in the open, and tons of shots when they're in cover.

Ozymandias wrote:With any indirect fire, you can choose to direct fire and ignore the minimum range. Don't have the page number but it's in the BRB IIRC.

No, the colossus has a rule (that overrides the BRB) that it SPECIFICALLY cannot shoot directly. I know you can do so normally.

You still have to abide by the minimum range. Less than minimum range is a miss, same as over max range for any gun is a miss.

You may barrage something you have LoS to and take your Bs off the scatter but that's about as special as they get ( which is quite normal really ).

Ozymandias wrote:With any indirect fire, you can choose to direct fire and ignore the minimum range. Don't have the page number but it's in the BRB IIRC.

Although this is true, the colossus, (and maybe even the griffon) have a special rule that says something like...

"its pointing too far upwards, can't ever fire directly"

edit: how did I get 2x ninja'd in like the 30 seconds it took me to post?

Actually, you ignore minimum range when firing directly, as well as taking your BS off the scatter. But the colossus CAN'T be fired directly. Supposedly.

pg 32 40k rulebook:

Barrage weapons use blasts so refer to those rules, ie: firing directly. ( So yes they can fire directly, I've not doubted that you can't )

Cover saves from the centre of the blast.

Some barrage weapons have a minimum range. Centre of the marker falls short you miss.

Pinning.

Barrage weapons can fire at targets they cannot see. Do not deduct your Bs.



So no option to ignore the minimum range if it has one. Your bound by it because you are using a Barrage weapon.