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Page 58 there champ. ORdanance barrage weapons may choose to fire directly (IGNORING THE MINUMUM RANGE) or indirectly as normal. My own words, top right hand corner of the page.

Colossus, however, cannot opt to do this. It MUST fire indirectly.

Scottywan and Shep: Sorry, didn't see that there was a special rule for the colossus and (maybe) the griffon.

Middle: I believe if you can see the target you are allowed to fire directly (and therefore ignore the minimum range), I don't have my BRB with me to quote the page number for you.* Shep and Scottywan have said that the new IG Codex has a rule which overrides this choice.

EDIT: *Ninja'd by Scottywan.

Man, there are ninjas *everywhere*!

To summarize:

Barrage - may NOT fire less than minimum Distance [BBB, p.32]
Ordnance Barrage - may fire directly less than minimum [BBB, p.58]
Griffon & Colossus - may NEVER fire directly [C: IG]

K?

Cheers Scottywan82 and Ozymandias.

Never noticed that vehicle mounted ordnance barrage weapons can fire like normal ordnance. Thanks for pointing that out.

* eats hat *

So you can move and shoot to get your direct shot ?

And it won't pin ? ( no 'Death raining from the sky' )

Nope, it's all as direct fire. Sweet, eh?

Makes me love the Basilisk a lot more.

Polonius wrote:I like the colossus, the problem is that it's really good at something that the IG, in general, are already pretty good at: dealing with 3+ saves. We have basic pie plates when they're in the open, and tons of shots when they're in cover.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with that. Pieplates can work wonders on 3+ in the open, but dealing with nearly anything in cover is a headache. I rarely have enough lasguns and heavy bolter / autocannon to wipe out that heavy assault unit before it jumps out of cover and gets into combat. Even 100 lasrifles only wins you 5-6 dead marines. 6 autocannons only gets you 1-2 more. While you can overwhelm them with shots, I wouldn't say we're "pretty good" at it. You've really got to catch them alone in front of your entire army unless they're out of cover where ordinance and plasma can get them.

That's why IG has deep striking Veterans with plasmas/meltas. Last time I've seen SM almost tabled in turn 3. With all those AP3 & ignoring cover arties I assume the worst...

Uszaty wrote:That's why IG has deep striking Veterans with plasmas/meltas. Last time I've seen SM almost tabled in turn 3. With all those AP3 & ignoring cover arties I assume the worst...

Well we won't have deep striking Vets come the new codex, that's for sure.

Unless they're jumping out of our new shiny plastic Valks

So stop going to starbucks, you'll need the extra money.

And the extra points. While a valk may be useful itself, you're still paying 100+ more points per squad to get those plas and demo shots where you need them. That'll quickly make any deep striking demo charge and plasma list pricey.

Back to my original point - the colossus might be a good investment to get those cover-grabbing infantry IG heavy weapons and small arms seem less-than-awesome at dislodging. But could multiple weaker templates do it better with sheer number of hits? Griffons? Valks with missile pods?

hmm, I guess I just don't have that much trouble with normal MEQs, even in cover. Termies, plague marines, Death company.... those are all really butch, but things like Khorne Berzekers and ASsault Marines just aren't that scary to me. I'm not saying that the colossus isn't really good at those targets, it's just that the cost and limited value against termies/vehicles means it's a little more pigeonholed than I'd like.

Throwing one in a larger list might not be bad though.

Some of you really didnt know you could de-elevate the Basilisk's cannon? In the current codex you have to pay extra points for the option NOT to fire directly-only.

An AP3 weapon that also ignores cover saves is very relevant. Cover saves are just too prevalent now. I've had games where my Russes fired 8-9 times over the course of the game and the targets had cover very single time. It's one of my biggest annoyances with 5th edition. Our best anti-marine weapon lost a big part of it's effectiveness. The fact that the Colossus cant fire directly is probably a nod to logic (it's a mortar after all) and also a play balance issue. For me, the 24" minimum range on it pretty much shifts it from an auto-include to a "I'll proxy playtest it for a while and see". It'd be good for splutting things like Devastator squads in their backfield, small squads holding their objectives (in cover), etc... but in my experience most MEQ squads that are more than 24" away are either inside a transport or off-board in a drop pod. Still, despite the 24" min range limitation, I think the Colossus is still worth a good hard playtesting. Annoying as hell trying to kill a squad of MEQs hiding behind the wreck of their Rhino or in the crater of their former-Rhino. Jumpy troops hiding behind a wall of Rhino. Lootas in cover. Etc etc.

Anybody have the point cost of the Colossus handy? All of the above depends on point cost of course.

Posted earlier at 140 points.

160-odd points IIRC.

Ignoring cover at AP3 is worthwhile in the current environment.

It's 140 in the rumors I've heard too. Which is pricey, but it is AP3 ignoring cover... But 24 inch minimum range sucks ass.

H.B.M.C. wrote:160-odd points IIRC.

middle wrote:stonefox: Colossus is 140pts. 24"-240" S6 Ap3 Ordnance 1. Large blast. Barrage. Ignores cover saves.

And repeated right above you.

Ignoring cover at AP3 is worthwhile in the current environment.

You can get nearly two Griffons for one Colossus. So do 2 Griffons = 1 Colossus? It's probably pretty close.

Ivan had a good point, though. As much as I want that ap3 ignore cover template, he's right that most of the things that give me trouble are 24" or closer.

You'd either have to aggressively push the other guy back into the colossus's kill range (and risk turning an amoeba platoon into dogmeat when a couple tac squads or assault squads charge it) or do the criss-cross bassie deployment with them so they can cover opposite sides of the board.

Maybe more cheaper ap4 templates is the way to go. Or maybe the bassie is still the all-round best as long as you aren't afraid to nudge it out of cover to direct fire with it.

See, I actually see the value of the colosuss to be be dealing with entrenched light troops on objectives. How often do you see scouts or pathfinders or grots gone to ground in your enemies backfield? This could wreck them up pretty badly. Devestators too.

Can they squadron up?

So true! You'd probably only need at most two then... Hmm.... Artillery company, what?

They'll be MANDATORY in apocalypse. Nearly.

Well, that'd kill all those infiltrating guys! Also, can you move and fire your colossus? That way, considering the many outflanking/DS-ing CC people, hitting on a 4+ is better than an instant hit!

Not sure if it's too much trouble, but I like mathhammer, so could someone who's good at it test the griffon and the colossus? I would (if I had more time on the weekdays...) if I was good at it, but I'm not .

-A.

middle wrote:As for Chenkov. He removes units of consripts so long as they are still alive at the start of his turn ( Note that there are no liminations to being tied up in cc )

They walk on the board from reserves in your next turn. ( Not the turn you make them disappear )

When I asked this earlier someone said you couldn't do it if they were engaged. Are we sure about this?

The stubborn rule is nice, but conscripts are still LD5, and no one said they came with a sergeant. And since people have said you can't attach a commissar(wtf) you have to use a commissar lord, an IC that is an extra KP and won't come back. Please tell me I am wrong about some of that too.

Griffon 12-48" Hit with the scatter dice, wounds marines on 2s, they get a 3+ armor save. Lighter units get a cover save.

Colossus 24-240" hits on scatter, wounds on 2s, no save for marines, no cover save.

The Colossus has been another target for my mental kicking-around-the-parking-lot. On paper, it's dead scary. In reality, most everything is going to be 24" from the gunline and trying to get closer, so if you get 2 rounds of shooting, I'd count you pretty lucky.

However, the Colossus basically crushes objective holders. Very, very few troop choices (I can think of three...maybe four) can stand up to even a single direct Colossus hit without losing a crapload of guys. Two Colossi for ... 280 pts, I think? ... should be able to clear 2-3 objectives completely by the end of the game, solo. Is it worth 280 pts to know that I can force my opponent off his objectives either by death or by coralling them to within my 24" kill bubble?

Back to the parking lot, and time to get a change of shoes.

As and Eldar player the Colossus scares the heck outta me. I field both Wraithguard and Pathfinders as Troops. If I see a Colossus on the table, it will take fire priority over everything else out there.

As a Guard player, the only downside to taking them means I have to squadron some or all of my 3 LRBT's. Sourclams nailed it...taking the Colossus brings the enemy to your gunline.

Well, isn't that the point? You'd hardly expect them to sit tight and stand there.

Hmm... Good point. I will be sacrificing some of my Russes to get these.

Question: Can the Vanquisher fire normal LRBT rounds?

Magic Hate Ball Says:

Not bloody likely.