Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

focusedfire wrote:But it doesn't say that such merged squads can't deploy in their dedicated transports.

When squads are loaded in their dedicated transports they deploy as a single unit. Now if three such squads are merged it would create a squadron. Or can three merged squads be loaded in a squadron of three valks?

This could be an interesting debate unless the merging rules provide clarity. But I will refrain from the debate until there is definite word on the rules in this situation.

I'm just imagining 3 merged squads in a three valk squadron having just moved 12" to line up for the drop run and one of the valks gets immobilized. Is the unit inside destroyed? Do they get out? If they get out will the rest of the merged unit have to disembark? It's a no-brainer at 24" seeing as the unit inside the valk will be destroyed.

Debate? how is it unclear?

Merged unit contains 20-50 models. Chimera capacity is 12.

To say that "well perhaps they'll be able to split up in stay in coherency in their transports and still count as 1 KP and 1 unit" requires the assumption of completely new rules.

So unless they *introduce new rules*, we go by the current rules.

@ BoxANT-The distance to the unit inside of the transport is measured to the hull for the purpose of psychic ranged attacks.

Building from this, as long as the hulls stay within 2" they would still be in coherency.

This isn't even taking into accout that "if" the models are already considered loaded at the time of the merging then it would create a defacto squadron. This is because a squad loaded in its transport count as a single unit when rolling for them to come in from reserves.


AAAUUGGGHHH- I said that I didn't want to debate this until the rules were out and you baited me into it. BoxANT, I salute you.

Later

I think we need to apply Occam's Razor to this... oh I see BoxANT already did.

This is why people get angry at the concept of "rules lawyer". Rules lawyers are the guys making the INAT document. But people see what FF's doing and mistake....whatever it is...for rules lawyering.

@ BoxANT-The distance to the unit inside of the transport is measured to the hull for the purpose of psychic ranged attacks.

Building from this, as long as the hulls stay within 2" they would still be in coherency.

This isn't even taking into accout that "if" the models are already considered loaded at the time of the merging then it would create a defacto squadron. This is because a squad loaded in its transport count as a single unit when rolling for them to come in from reserves.

Really, wut?

Please do not confuse the questions I'm bringing up with anything I would,might, or want to do.

I've played across from so many who would make these arguments that I look for clarifications before I have to deal with it in-game.

I'm not proposing that such arguments should be made, only that they will be unless the rules are very clear.


This is why if you go back to the beginning of this particular subject I was asking for clarity on whether units with transports could be merged and whether their transportd were included.
Basically, if there are transports involved then how does merging affect or work in this instance.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think we need to apply Occam's Razor to this... oh I see BoxANT already did.

His reply failed to address the Valk/Squadron portion. This is why I'm interested in reading the rules on merging personally. I'm amazed/annoyed that there isn't a bloody leaked PDF as of yet.

It didn't need to address it. It's the same deal.

Round peg. Square hole. And the peg is HUGE!!

50-man unit not go in 12-man transport.

lol. peg

SM get the ability to break apart a unit during deployment (combat squads). One KP becomes two KP.

IG gets the ability to combine squads during. 2-5 KP become one KP (one unit).


What you are saying is that we could deploy our platoon as one unit, and then during the game, redeploy them in transports as separate units and still have them be worth only one KP.

Just like you can put both parts of a Combat Squaded Tactical squad in the same rhino, you can't put a combined platoon in their separate transports.

It breaks the core rule of the game which is: One unit per transport.

Apart from all the reasons given here, the rule form combining squad stated that the merged units can´t be transported in a vehicle with less capacity than his members.

I think his point is you make your list before gaming I usually wright mine up at home before I go gaming.
Before the game you roll up the mission and low and behold kill points. Well ok then I will mush my squads together to lower the kill points and not put them in the vehicles.
He wants to know if you bought the vehicles for the squads. Why don't the vehicles just turn into a squad with the guys in them using the squad rules for vehicles?
Or do they sit there not transporting or providing protection for the squads they were purchased for?
Trying to help a brother pie man out.

We know what he means - he's been quite clear there.

What we doubt is that the rules even cover that beyond "units may not embark on a transport with insufficient capacity". And I doubt all the transports become a squadron when you join the squads together.

The answer is clear I think. You make your list with a mobilized platoon of say, 3 line squads. When you decide to merge, you deploy the platoon and the transports seperately. They can now zip around on their own or transport someone else.

Even if they were a squadron (very doubtful), they would still be individual transports. They don't become one single giant transport. You cannot spread any one unit amongst more than one vehicle.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:You can get nearly two Griffons for one Colossus. So do 2 Griffons = 1 Colossus? It's probably pretty close.

Assuming 7 under the blast marker, the Griffons will kill 4 Marines (3.89). The single Colossus, also hitting 7 models, will kill 6 Marines (5.83). I say bring both...

The Griffon is rumoured to be more accurate though (re-roll scatter?).

Assuming only a direct hit is a good hit (which will sometimes be too strict), the Griffons have a 55 % (33 % + 33 % x 66 %) chance to hit and the Colossus a 33 % chance only.

I know what to do buy 6 gorgans that will fix the problem * looks at the gorgan price at fw *

Have there ever been any pictures/reference material for a Colossus? I think models exist for every other tank (even if they are FW) besides the Colossus. I wonder what it is supposed to look like?

The FW bombard could be a nice stand-in if you've got the cash for it.

I would imagine that if you want to merge mech squads, you will just have 1 megasquad and the chimeras will just drive around and do their own thing. I doubt you'll be allowed to merge and unmerge your squads whenever you want to.

I think for a colossus (if you didn't want to use PVC piping) you could do well to get a 1/35 or so WW1 or 2 mobile artillery model to hack up for parts, then stick them on a chimera.

They'll probably have a drawing of some sort.

@BoxANT, H.B.M.C., Harridan, Lord Solar Plexus, and Middle

Thanks for the input guys. Unless something changes drastically, I'll be able to shut that cheese down very quickly, if it comes up.

Also thanks to Sonofruss for having my back.

Later

vonjankmon: There are pictures of the new tanks in the codex. Some are lucky to have their own artwork. Russ variants and Ordnance battery vehicles all have side on line drawings. Gives you enough detail to have a go at making your own.

Colossus looks somewhere between the forgeworld Bombard and and Griffon. On a Chimera chassis of course.


Thinking of the Colossus and its no cover saves rule that is not printed in the french pdf made me remember another little tidbit that's not on there. The Deathstrike missile does not half it's strength when its blasts hole is not over the target vehicle. S10 Ap1. Ouch.


focusedfire: Chimeras do not merge into squadrons when their squads merge they stay separate. You can't mount one unit across multiple vehicles.

The 50 man squad can get whittled down to twelve or less by casualties etc, then get in a chimera / Valk.

Lord Solar Plexus: Griffon does indeed re-roll scatter ( no restriction to it too, such as staying still. )

middle wrote:Thinking of the Colossus and its no cover saves rule that is not printed in the french pdf made me remember another little tidbit that's not on there. The Deathstrike missile does not half it's strength when its blasts hole is not over the target vehicle. S10 Ap1. Ouch.

That may make these more popular. I anticipate cries of outrage the first few games that these are used.
Edit: The one use only still makes these less than desirable IMO.

middle wrote:Lord Solar Plexus: Griffon does indeed re-roll scatter ( no restriction to it too, such as staying still. )

Don't ordnance barrage weapons have to remain stationary to fire their barrage? (p. 58, BRB)

JB wrote:

middle wrote:Lord Solar Plexus: Griffon does indeed re-roll scatter ( no restriction to it too, such as staying still. )

Don't ordnance barrage weapons have to remain stationary to fire their barrage? (p. 58, BRB)

To fire their *barrrage*? Yes.

But they can fire directly on the move, but they need LOS and it counts as normal ordnance. But the Colossus can not do this, but it sounds like the Griffion still can (am I reading your right Middle?).

Yerp.

Colossus has to barrage.

Griffon is just normal vehicle mounted ordnance,

BoxANT wrote:

JB wrote:

middle wrote:Lord Solar Plexus: Griffon does indeed re-roll scatter ( no restriction to it too, such as staying still. )

Don't ordnance barrage weapons have to remain stationary to fire their barrage? (p. 58, BRB)

To fire their *barrrage*? Yes.

But they can fire directly on the move, but they need LOS and it counts as normal ordnance. But the Colossus can not do this, but it sounds like the Griffion still can (am I reading your right Middle?).

GW should have released Griffons in Wave 1. Forge World will probably sell quite a few in the meantime. I will have to drag my Griffon bits out of mothballs and stick them on a new Chimera chassis.

I'm buying 3 FW ones right off the bat. It sucks, but they're just too good NOT to have.

If, in fact, Griffons can fire normally instead of barrage style, then they get even more love compared to the Colossus.

I'm going to need to buy my old 3rd ed Griffon a new little brother.

On a side note, is anyone else mildly excited about the prospect of putting hull heavy flamers on their artillery tanks? For some reason I really like the idea of the vehicles mounting their own close-quarters defense.

Biophysic wrote:If, in fact, Griffons can fire normally instead of barrage style, then they get even more love compared to the Colossus.

I'm going to need to buy my old 3rd ed Griffon a new little brother.

On a side note, is anyone else mildly excited about the prospect of putting hull heavy flamers on their artillery tanks? For some reason I really like the idea of the vehicles mounting their own close-quarters defense.

A heavy flamer makes sense to me since you will almost never fire a HB anyway. Your Griffon will probably be in or behind cover. If you fire ordnance with it then you can't fire the HB. Even if you fire direct you don't get the Lumbering Behemoth rule AFAIK so you still can't fire a HB. So the only real use for a hull weapon is when the enemy is close but even then, with a Griffon, I'd probably fire my ordnance at a far off target and let the enemy assaulter take his swings. It's only 75 points!

JB wrote:

A heavy flamer makes sense to me since you will almost never fire a HB anyway. Your Griffon will probably be in or behind cover. If you fire ordnance with it then you can't fire the HB. Even if you fire direct you don't get the Lumbering Behemoth rule AFAIK so you still can't fire a HB. So the only real use for a hull weapon is when the enemy is close but even then, with a Griffon, I'd probably fire my ordnance at a far off target and let the enemy assaulter take his swings. It's only 75 points!

Or just direct fire the main gun since whatever gets that close should be within pretty easy line of sight.

Gestalt wrote:

middle wrote:As for Chenkov. He removes units of consripts so long as they are still alive at the start of his turn ( Note that there are no liminations to being tied up in cc )

They walk on the board from reserves in your next turn. ( Not the turn you make them disappear )

When I asked this earlier someone said you couldn't do it if they were engaged. Are we sure about this?

The stubborn rule is nice, but conscripts are still LD5, and no one said they came with a sergeant. And since people have said you can't attach a commissar(wtf) you have to use a commissar lord, an IC that is an extra KP and won't come back. Please tell me I am wrong about some of that too.

Sorry to quote myself but it might affect my potential purchases soon. People have still claimed both ways on this and then got lost under direct firing colossus'. (colossi?) Also the griffon/colossus combo mentioned earlier seems pretty sweet.