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Railguns wrote:Now the 5th edition nid codex has literally flipped this around so that everyone who wants to use their gaunts the same way they used to has to either rip off all of their gaunt arms or just buy all of them over again. It's purely a marketing based move that spits in the face of everyone who already plays Tyranids.

Marketing move? hardly. The termagant has been the iconic gaunt model since the tyranid background was introduced. Spinegaunts were popular only due to their inexpensiveness. In the 4th edition tyranid codex, both variations were terrible, many just chose the less common variety of gaunt to save points. I applaud the choice to bring the focus of the gaunts back to the termagant. The spingaunts still exist, and for a point you gain a better gun. It may indeed seem like "spitting in the face" of the players who got into tyranids once they found out nidzilla was a terror on the battlefield. But I see it as a nod to the old schoolers who might own some of these...

Railguns wrote:The loss of living ammo rerolls make Termagants even worse.

I will trade living ammo for an extra 6" of range in a heartbeat. The difference between a 12" range and 18" range should be apparent to anyone who has played against orks with shootas, or dire avengers. Its the difference between not ever going to get good shots off, to not hard to get a good volley of shooting.

warpcrafter wrote:I would really like to know why they took out rules like Living Ammunition and Without Number. They gave the Tyranids character. What's next, removing Waaagh! from the next Orks Codex?

Really? Without Number existed in only one tyranid codex. It was never taken by anyone other than for laughs for the entirety of 4th edition, and only became marginally useful for the 18 months that the 4th edition tyranid codex was used during 5th edition. I'll trade WoN for troop tervigons all day.

Living ammunition is just an in game dice rule with no real character. It was only on two guns and only during the reign of the 4th edition codex. The devourer gaining more shots with both versions of the gun is accomplishing the same effect as a re-roll, but it saves more time during the game. The fleshborer gaining 50% more range will do much more to total wounds caused than a simple wound re-roll.

Darth Bob wrote:What's the deal with implant attack. It says the victim "Loses All Wounds". Would that be considered the same as instant death or is it different and therefore not affected by Eternal Warrior. If so, we're going to have a trend of HT's 1-shotting special characters.

Implant Attack now causes Instant Death when you roll a 6 on the roll to Wound. But don't worry, the new Codex is packed with stuff that causes instant death. The Swarmlord has Instant Death with all his attacks, Boneswords have ID with the leadership test (Warriors and Tyrant Guard can now also take Bone Swords)

Fateweaver wrote:Perhaps with all the nid guns getting arguably better (and yes the new VC is better than the current one IMO) Living Ammo would have been TOO good or not necessary.

Actually, most guns seem to have gotten weaker or sidegraded to a diferent role if you ask me, either due to the weapon it self changing, or the creature that could/can wield it. For example, Deathspitters are no longer Blast weapons (bye blast spamming Warrior squads :(). Venom Cannons now are Blast weapons. Barbed Stranglers on a Carnifex are only S6 now. 'Fex can't take 2 big guns anymore (no more Gunfexxes), etc.

Dakkafexes get 4 more shots now rerolling misses. I'll miss rerolling wounds for them but 4 more shots will outweigh rerolling the odd 1 that pops up when shooting at anything not T5 or higher.

Dakkatyrants got worse though. While did they go up 1 in Stength, they almost doubled in cost, lost 1 BS and Living Ammunition. It makes them a bit better against low AV vehicles, but they definetly got worse against infantry.

I think the fact that Tyranids are a characterful army in itself should not be made characterless by the removal of 1 or 2 rules. Lots of special rules don't make an army have character; the army itself should be what makes it full of character and compared to Marines or IG they are are a characterful army.

The new codex is chock-full of special rules. I think almost half the army has 6 or more special rules/wargear.

Marketing move? hardly. The termagant has been the iconic gaunt model since the tyranid background was introduced.

You mean the hunter slayer?
But i do agree with you on what you have wrote.

Again with the range, i agree.
A re-roll is nothing compared to extra range on what was a short ranged weapon.
Meaning they can now shoot before being killed



Without number has pretty much been replaced with the tervigon's special rules.
Something very different, yet more characterful.
Lets face it, its not like a new unit runs in to replace lost ones for nids.
they are a living tide.

Shep wrote:The fleshborer gaining 50% more range will do much more to total wounds caused than a simple wound re-roll.

The Fleshborer is still 12". Gaunts can only get 18" range by getting Devourers, which are quite powerful on them, but doubles their point cost, or by getting Spike Rifles, which are the same cost as Spinefists, but are basically Assault 1 Lasguns.

Now the 5th edition nid codex has literally flipped this around so that everyone who wants to use their gaunts the same way they used to has to either rip off all of their gaunt arms or just buy all of them over again. It's purely a marketing based move that spits in the face of everyone who already plays Tyranids.

Welcome to hyperbole land, population: railguns.

I would really like to know why they took out rules like Living Ammunition and Without Number. They gave the Tyranids character.

Living ammunition maybe, without number though was just stupid in fifth edition. No one took it in fourth, and in fifth it was game breaking. It's removal and placement firmly back into the realm of the fluff background is something I support. Necron weapons blow holes in power armor and their big guns can shoot down titans. Certain things need to be regulated for a functioning game.

Shep hit it on the head.

Spinegaunts were taken as a necessary evil in Nidzilla lists because after buying all MC's not much room left for anything else.

As much as people might hate GW not everything done by it's employees is a "marketing ploy". I'm sure JG doesn't sculpt as well as he does because the more his stuff sells the more his contract is worth in the future. He sculpts as good as he does because it's not money driving him but a will to do a good job.

I don't get paid to paint my own stuff and while I won't win any GD's for anything I try to paint everything (even rank and file) to the point where I could win just about every painting competition I entered outside of GD.

As much as people might hate GW not everything done by it's employees is a "marketing ploy".

They aren't going to believe you. Occams razor isn't as fun as conspiracy.

Yes Shuma, that is true. It is why I don't brow beat people into seeing things my way (not saying you do, just making a statement).

People can believe what they want but when they go getting all conspiracy theory on me and try to preach it like it's gospel I have to respond in kind.

I don't see how calling something what it is hyperbole. What was once one thing has been, in a literal sense, flipped, so roles are reversed. Believing GW doesn't do certain things to sell models is just as naive as believing that they never do, and I think there is enough evidence to support the theory that this is, in fact, a marketing move.

Anyone know if the Swarmlord can take a Spore Capsule?

I don't see how calling something what it is hyperbole. What was once one thing has been, in a literal sense, flipped, so roles are reversed.

Actually the spineguants do the exact same thing, in the exact same way. The borer just got marginally better by dropping in points. The only real role reversal is the tyranid vets powergaming their armies all of a sudden decrying a change because they no longer posess the top tier. Suddenly "its not how they wanted their army". The army still functions virtually identically, and since the spine gaunts price increase is in the realm of a point the tyranid forces are paying maybe 60-120 points (in a 2000 point game if they are using a considerable number of them) more for troops that, through the introduction of new tervigons, tyrants, and toxathrophens got much better.

Believing GW doesn't do certain things to sell models is just as naive as believing that they never do, and I think there is enough evidence to support the theory that this is, in fact, a marketing move.

There is absolutely no evidence what so ever. Just a circumstantial premise on which you are basing an accusation. Evidence is something else entirely. Like I said though. Conspiracy us more fun than obvious simplicity, so have fun.


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Refyougee wrote:Anyone know if the Swarmlord can take a Spore Capsule?

I can't read german, but it doesn't have any options at all, let alone 40 point ones. It looks like it's got to walk to where it's going.

the army itself should be what makes it full of character and compared to Marines or IG they are are a characterful army.

An army has character if the player making the army list and assembling, converting and painting the models gives it character. Tyranids don't have 'character' simply because they're 'bugs' any more than SM have 'character' because they're 'superhuman'. I've spent nearly 75 euros per Tactical Squad in bitz and parts from extra sprues to give the Marines character, and same goes for all my vehicles. Unless a Tyranid player goes all out like guys like Moloch have, the Nids will be just as bland as any straight-out-of-the-box-and-painted-like-crap army. I fail to see why a bug's weapon needs to have a special rule called 'living ammunition' for you to believe the ammo it shoots is indeed living. Whether a special rule does or doesn't exist doesn't give or take any of the Tyranids' character. The character is found in the background material and in the models.

I wonder how a Lictor/Swarm Lord army in form of an alpha strike would work?

Reserve everything----everything shows up Turn 2 on a 2+
2x broods of Zoams in pods
3X Trygon DS/subterranean
Stealer Pods for troops

hmmm....

warpcrafter wrote:I would really like to know why they took out rules like Living Ammunition and Without Number. They gave the Tyranids character. What's next, removing Waaagh! from the next Orks Codex?

Not sure on Living Ammunition, but they probably took out Without Number because it was a bad rule.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I can't read german, but it doesn't have any options at all, let alone 40 point ones. It looks like it's got to walk to where it's going.

Yeah thats right.

The only ones who can get the Pod are:

Toxotroph
Zoantroph
Nemisis
Pyros
Warriors
Genestealers
Terms
Horms
Carnis

The pendulum swing that brings T-Gaunts back into the forefront of the army is a marketing ploy. Changing their weapons around so that people have to alter their models/buy new models isn't a marketing ploy.

The spingaunts still exist, and for a point you gain a better gun.

Spinefists aren't better at all. I'd say they are worse actually on a gaunt.
Fleshborer is 12" S4 AP5 Assault1
Spinefist is 12" S3 AP5 Assault1 Twinlinked

Same MEq kills (1/12), Spine is slightly better against GEq (3/8 vs 1/3), fleshborer is superior against higher T and can glance AR10. Not sure why spinefists cost a point, but they do. I think making them a free swap woulda been better and fair, and still ecourage fleshborers. My spinefists will get ripped off for scytals or they'll count as spike rifles (spikerifles are 18" S3 Ap- A1 for 1 pt).

Hmm. Interesting.

Thing is, Nids have bigger and better things for knacking AV10, so the one advantage Fleshborers have one Spinegaunts whilst undeniably invaluable in a pinch, isn't as big a bonus as it might seem.

After all, the heavy hitters of the Nids tend to have relatively few, but potent attacks (CC Carnies) thus cannot afford to be bogged down by little stuff. So in the wider picture, the Spinefists can make more sense. Against Daemons, Guard, Eldar etc, I'd take the twin linked every time over the additional point of S. But thats just me. After all, a twin linked squad has a fair chance of turning a pathetic round of shooting into an average one, and an average round of shooting into a spectacular one. I prefer the indemnity against those times when the dice decide to rebel against their just and noble ruler, conspiring to have a passive agressive stance by all rolling ones at the same time.

Hive2003 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

I can't read german, but it doesn't have any options at all, let alone 40 point ones. It looks like it's got to walk to where it's going.

Yeah thats right.

The only ones who can get the Pod are:

Toxotroph
Zoantroph
Nemisis
Pyros
Warriors
Genestealers
Terms
Horms
Carnis

And that throws additional curveballs compared to what we knew a week ago. Hive Guard rock, but they have to slog it. As do Tyrants. It should be interesting to see what formulas shake out in terms of ratios of what comes in via pod/DS and what slogs.

I may playtest an all-reserve army using a mix of pods, DS, outflanking and wings (coming in from reserve) this week. No idea if it's gonna work, lol. So much has changed, it's hard to Theoryhammer it.

Agamemnon2 wrote:So it appears mechanised is the way to go, with expensive veterans carted around in Vendettas. Still, since that's not what I started my army for, nor is it in any way an archetype I'm keen on, I think I'll stick with boots on the ground, infantry platoons and other foot troops, because among other reasons, Vendettas are a pain to transport for those poor plebs without a reasonably priced access to Battlefoam.

I'll lose a gakload of games, but in the end, so what? I'm already a laughing stock, what's a few more humiliations?

I think Vendettas are actually rather poor as transports and that semi-mech is the best option for IG. Your mileage may vary.

Did anyone save the original post of the codex here? If so - please email it to me - I would appreciate it.

winterman wrote:

The spingaunts still exist, and for a point you gain a better gun.

Spinefists aren't better at all. I'd say they are worse actually on a gaunt.
Fleshborer is 12" S4 AP5 Assault1
Spinefist is 12" S3 AP5 Assault1 Twinlinked

Same MEq kills (1/12), Spine is slightly better against GEq (3/8 vs 1/3), fleshborer is superior against higher T and can glance AR10. Not sure why spinefists cost a point, but they do. I think making them a free swap woulda been better and fair, and still ecourage fleshborers. My spinefists will get ripped off for scytals or they'll count as spike rifles (spikerifles are 18" S3 Ap- A1 for 1 pt).

If you are using gaunts to knock out speeders or sentinels you've probably pulling desperation moves in the face of an inevitable loss. If I need speeders dead I'll smack them with deathspitters or devourers or zoanthropes or hive guard.

I mean that's like IG players whining that lasguns are only S3 and that bolters are better because they can glance a landspeeder. Glancing AR10 with a bolter is a last ditch effort move, not something to plan a squads usefulness around. If it is than those people have no idea what gaunts are for.

Fateweaver wrote:

winterman wrote:

The spingaunts still exist, and for a point you gain a better gun.

Spinefists aren't better at all. I'd say they are worse actually on a gaunt.
Fleshborer is 12" S4 AP5 Assault1
Spinefist is 12" S3 AP5 Assault1 Twinlinked

Same MEq kills (1/12), Spine is slightly better against GEq (3/8 vs 1/3), fleshborer is superior against higher T and can glance AR10. Not sure why spinefists cost a point, but they do. I think making them a free swap woulda been better and fair, and still ecourage fleshborers. My spinefists will get ripped off for scytals or they'll count as spike rifles (spikerifles are 18" S3 Ap- A1 for 1 pt).

If you are using gaunts to knock out speeders or sentinels you've probably pulling desperation moves in the face of an inevitable loss. If I need speeders dead I'll smack them with deathspitters or devourers or zoanthropes or hive guard.

I mean that's like IG players whining that lasguns are only S3 and that bolters are better because they can glance a landspeeder. Glancing AR10 with a bolter is a last ditch effort move, not something to plan a squads usefulness around. If it is than those people have no idea what gaunts are for.

Of course, you don't plan for it, but it's good to know you can do it if no better targets present themselves. That many shots have a chance of accomplishing something, and if it works, it's at least a facepalm moment for your opponent. Extricating a narrow win or at least a draw out of the depths of certain defeat is much more satisfying than stomping your enemy because you knew that's how it was going to go down. I plan on putting Devourers on all my Termagaunts, because even my pessimism isn't that powerful.

Knock yourself out but just because fists won't knock out speeders doesn't make spinegaunts useless. Lasguns anot able to knock out speeders doesn't make IG Vet squads useless.

That reasoning is as absurd as saying GW made spinefists more pricy than fleshborers to get people to buy more gaunts.




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Man, all the in-depth stuff is gone before i got a chance to save it.

I like Lunas revelations. Helps me plan my nids even if I don't know points costs.

This book makes me wish I had never switched to the emperors glorious space sharks :( . Meh. Maybe someday I'll make a swarmlord and use him as the super space shark in apocalypse.

This book has me really excited for my `Nids now that all the leaks are out there and I have a good idea what's coming. On the other hand I kind of wish it wasn't about to come out, because Avatar makes me really want to start up a Guard army.

There was a trail of wrecked Trukks, Speeders and Raiders behind my Termagants in 4th edition. They were opportunity shooters that weren't bad at area denial to AV10.

I don't get the cost for the spinefist "upgrade" either. My current thinking is to stick with fleshborer Termagants, and maybe try out devourer Termagants paired with Tervigons during playtesting.

In other news, it's kinda disappointing that Raveners don't get access to adrenal glands or toxin sacs. I guess their angle is cheapness and speed compared to Warriors. Although Warriors can be kitted out to be *far* deadlier and real MEq killers, albeit at a price.

Lots and lots of glass hammers in this codex. If you can bring those hammers to bear, it's a can of whup-a$$. But the first part looks to be the tricky part.

Yay, an army that doesn't play itself unlike the 4th edition Nidzilla that played itself.

Termagants should not be trying to knock out MEQ's or tougher through shooting. Leave it up to the mid size bugs or the hormogaunts to do it through assaulting.

Spinefist is better vs GEQ. Seeing as how you need to get GEQ's out of transports even the S4 FB is not going to cut it (unless you manage side shots and glances can never wreck so even S4 will only disable a chimera and if your opponent lets slow ass gaunts get side shots on his Chimera it wasn't due to tactical genius on your part) spinefists have a place other than being just "bullet catchers on the cheap".

Fleshborers may be arguably better but I'm going to keep spinefists on one of my gaunt broods only because I like how they look and to do so means not ruining my models I put together.

If I get a second brood I'll try a different weapon load out but vs the IG opponents in my group the SF's will be better once I dismount them (you know, using actual nid anti-tank rather than FB's in make-believe land).

I'm a little worried that Nids can now have 9 carnies and 2 Hive Tyrants. How are my poor CSM gonna deal with all that MC? HUH?

Those 11 MC's aren't that scary when you realize that they cost about 2k points. WITHOUT UPGRADES!!!