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Am I the only one getting more and more worried about the new guard codex? Sure there are all kinds of cool toys but the real meat is looking less and less promising.

1) 16pt Karskin... are they for real
2) 55 points base for a squad... so 5 points cheaper
3) Heavy weapons point drop, but plasma goes up in price, the rest of the specials do not change
4) Increase in cost of the stock Russ. So what if we can take 3 at a time
5) 100 point Valkeries
6) Still overpriced chimera's.
7) Option to warp into one super sqaud. So when I get assaulted I loose 55 guys instead of 10.
8) special characters who are still t3 base
9) Command squads are even bigger targets, still give up 2 kp, and are still super easy to kill.
10) I have seen no info on the cost of command squads... With these new "commands" I am willing to bet the same price or more.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.

I bet you're so proud right about now.

You did see the crying emoticon, right?
____

Hulksmash wrote:I would probably still use a squad or maybe two (depends on what else is in the elite slot) of stormtroopers. 16 points for me is reasonable for what I'd use them for. Their job is to blunt fast strike MEQ units. They'll do that very well for their points even at 16 points.

For 160 pts of basic Storms against 160 pts of basic Marines, it looks like this:

10 Marines double-tap Storms = 20 shots, 13 hits, 9 wounds, 4+ kills...
10 Storms double-tap Marines = 20 shots, 13 hits, 4+ wounds...

For the same points they are equally good at killing each other, but...

- Marines are still Sv3+ armor, and don't care if a S6+ AP4 pie plate drops nearby. Marines get free Flamer and HB, so if they Pod adjacent to the Storms, they auto-win.

- Storms depend on AP3 in a world of 4++ Cover, which means that those Storms shooting at Marines with any cover only kill 2+ Marines, making them only half as good at the shooting they're supposed to (now) be good at.

- Surviving Marines are still WS4 S4 T4 I4 and will easily crush the WS3 S3 T3 I3 Storms in HTH.

2x 6 Inq Storms with 2 Plasma each are a much better use of 160 pts.

They wound on a 5+ John, a 5+.... st3 vs t4.... Try the math that way.
(whoops, math was right, number was wrong.)

Which just makes John even more correct, Foil.

To channel Stelek for a second:

16 Point Storm Troopers = GW EPIC FAIL!

Dexy wrote:Unless it can be given in your opponents turn it seems kinda odd. Oh whats that? You wasted your order on upping their cover? Guess I won't shoot them then!

OK, don't shoot the unit holding the objective which is the unit this order would be used on.


Perhaps storm troopers are priced since they are a deep striking, better than average, flexible unit in an army that is generally the opposite? You can't compare them in a vacuum to other units. The more '1 dimensional' (for lack of a better term) an army is, the more the worth of other elements goes up.

I doubt people will use them to go toe-to-toe with marines, but to replace the Drop Troop Vets with Meltaguns which were cheap for what they did. So you pay 25 points more and get to reroll your deep strike which improves your chance of getting <6" with a melta, and have krak grenades if they live. It may be a little steep price, but I don't think its as big a deal as people are making it.

And if you want to compare their shooting with hellguns, use the +1 shot order, they would be the ones to get it. (with plasmas perhaps too)


Edit: Are we sure Command Squads still give 2 KP? Haven't seen it mentioned but there isnt much reason to keep them as an IC.

foil7102 wrote:Am I the only one getting more and more worried about the new guard codex? Sure there are all kinds of cool toys but the real meat is looking less and less promising.

Well put. All in all, I'm not expecting to win any more games with the new book as I did with the old one.

Finally some actual confirmations. No dates, but 'May' is good enough really, here is the first wave:

Codex: Imperial Guard
Cadian Command Squad [Box]
Cadian Shock Troops [Box]
Catachan Command Squad [Box]
Catachan Jungle Fighters [Box]
Imperial Guard Valkyrie [Box]
Imperial Guard Sentinel [Box]
Imperial Guard Ratlings [Unknown]
Imperial Guard Primaris Psyker [Blister]
Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors [Blister]
Imperial Guard Lord Commissar [Blister]
Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce [Box]
Imperial Guard Catachan Battleforce [Box]

So the material that listed 4 boxes and 4 blisters was wrong. There are 8 boxes and 3 blisters, one of them Direct Only, and we don't know what the Ratlings will be in (hopefully a tiny box ala Grimaldus/Gretchin Mobz and not 3-per blister).

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.

Who says they're getting new plastics?

Yeah, new plastic stormies has never been confirmed. All we have are those greens and it's been sketchy what they actually were (arbites or =I= storm troopers has been the most oft rumored)

DAMMIT! Why must the advisors be direct only? That sucks royal gonads.

Gestalt wrote:Perhaps storm troopers are priced since they are a deep striking, better than average, flexible unit in an army that is generally the opposite? You can't compare them in a vacuum to other units.

I doubt people will use them to go toe-to-toe with marines, but to replace the Drop Troop Vets with Meltaguns which were cheap for what they did. So you pay 25 points more and get to reroll your deep strike which improves your chance of getting <6" with a melta,

And if you want to compare their shooting with hellguns, use the +1 shot order, they would be the ones to get it. (with plasmas perhaps too)

As Deep Strikers, Storms are worth 10 pts, maybe 12 pts, but nowhere near 16 pts. I compare them with ISTs and SoBs, because C:WH isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and I find them to be vastly superior for the points within an IG army. I also compare with Marines, because they cost about the same points, and the Marines have the Sv3+ armor that AP3 is supposed to be good against. Regardless, 16-pt Storms are a distinctly inferior choice that I would consider unplayable.

16-pt Storms compared with 5-6 Vets w/ 3 Meltas? The Vets win hands down every time because they cost less, and can fry T6+ Av2+ MCs, along with AV10+ (AV14+, too) vehicles. And spare wounds are only 8 pts instead of 16 pts.

+1 shot? Do we know that Storms can take this order, or is it only within 12" of the 2KP HQ Command Squad? I think that's an auto-loss in a KP game.


Really, it's hard to overstate just how bad 16+ pt Storms are.
____

Agamemnon2 wrote:

foil7102 wrote:Am I the only one getting more and more worried about the new guard codex? Sure there are all kinds of cool toys but the real meat is looking less and less promising.

Well put. All in all, I'm not expecting to win any more games with the new book as I did with the old one.

I am starting to become very seriously concerned that I might win *fewer* games with the new book than I currently do with FREE Scoring Drop Troops and unrestricted Drop Melta Veterans. The more I hear about costs, the less eager I am about the new Guard book.
____

Fetterkey wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.

Who says they're getting new plastics?

They were strongly rumored for Planetstrike.

According to my GW release sheet, the Ratlings are a £12 for 5 models, direct only blister.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Finally some actual confirmations. No dates, but 'May' is good enough really, here is the first wave:

Codex: Imperial Guard
Cadian Command Squad [Box]
Cadian Shock Troops [Box]
Catachan Command Squad [Box]
Catachan Jungle Fighters [Box]
Imperial Guard Valkyrie [Box]
Imperial Guard Sentinel [Box]
Imperial Guard Ratlings [Unknown]
Imperial Guard Primaris Psyker [Blister]
Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors [Blister]
Imperial Guard Lord Commissar [Blister]
Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce [Box]
Imperial Guard Catachan Battleforce [Box]

So the material that listed 4 boxes and 4 blisters was wrong. There are 8 boxes and 3 blisters, one of them Direct Only, and we don't know what the Ratlings will be in (hopefully a tiny box ala Grimaldus/Gretchin Mobz and not 3-per blister).

BYE

Ratlings are a small boxed set of five.

Wow 16pt Storm Troopers ARE an EPIC FAIL!

I would have thought, with the Valkyrie and strongly rumored plastic kit, that they would have made ST's the new uber unit!?!

I know for one, I was looking forward to fielding a ST/Valkyrie heavy army, but 160pts for stock troops with no weapon upgrades, plus 100pt transport again with no upgrades? That equals Stupid!

What are the rules for veteran squads? Can you have veterans as troops? Or am I completely boned?

Thanks,
Chappy P!

BrookM wrote:Ratlings are a small boxed set of five.

Ratlings are a small boxed set of still basically useless I suspect.

Just hope like the Space Marine codex that taking 10 gives free stuff, and that free stuff is a Valk.

I would have thought that with the Basic guardman droping down to 4pts/model, that veterans would be 6pts-8pts and Storm troopers being 8-10pts max! and I would have thought that Valkyrie's would have had a starting cost around 85-90pts, then max out around 100pts maybe a little over that?

Again Epic fail....

Live in hope die in vain!

Guardsmen aren't even 40 points, they are 40points + the 10points on Frag grenades you can't get rid of!

) 55 points base for a squad... so 5 points cheaper

50 points base.

I was kind of hoping this book would be t3h best EVAR so everyone could finally quit griping about lash.

Vassakov wrote:According to my GW release sheet, the Ratlings are a £12 for 5 models, direct only blister.

BrookM wrote:Ratlings are a small boxed set of five.

Thanks for clearing that one up guys.

Oh wait...

reds8n wrote:I assume so.

I didn't see anything that suggested otherwise.

Ahh.... what the hell..

Hydra Flak tank has special targetting that ignores fast cover saves on bikes.

....and skimmers.

Does this mean that ork bikers (and nob bikers) will still get the 4+ cover save they always have for being on bike? Because most bikes will be getting a 3+ armour save against the hydra anyway (Eldar bikes, Marine bikes, Chaos bikes) or always have cover (ork and nob warbikers always get a 4+).

reds8n wrote: 50 points base.

So they've gone down to 4 points a piece plus 1 point for a Frag Grenade that they don't fething need!!!!!! AHH! This just gets worse.

reds8n wrote:

) 55 points base for a squad... so 5 points cheaper

50 points base.

Wait, seriously? Guard aren't going down to 4 points, only 5? And KP aren't fixed and doctrines are gone?

JohnHwangDD wrote:As Deep Strikers, Storms are worth 10 pts, maybe 12 pts, but nowhere near 16 pts. I compare them with ISTs and SoBs, because C:WH isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and I find them to be vastly superior for the points within an IG army. I also compare with Marines, because they cost about the same points, and the Marines have the Sv3+ armor that AP3 is supposed to be good against. Regardless, 16-pt Storms are a distinctly inferior choice that I would consider unplayable.

16-pt Storms compared with 5-6 Vets w/ 3 Meltas? The Vets win hands down every time because they cost less, and can fry T6+ Av2+ MCs, along with AV10+ (AV14+, too) vehicles. And spare wounds are only 8 pts instead of 16 pts.

+1 shot? Do we know that Storms can take this order, or is it only within 12" of the 2KP HQ Command Squad? I think that's an auto-loss in a KP game.

IST don't deep strike, thats why I think comparing them to vets makes more sense, they aren't a line unit. Without drop troops Vets dont deep strike either. You lose a special weapon, and gain a better deep strike. And if ST can't take the order then Vets probably can't either. I am just saying that its not a huge change from what people already did, and I don't think 12 vs 16 points will make the decision of people taking them. If you aren't going to deep strike them, then they probably aren't worth it even at 8 points.

Dexy wrote:Guardsmen aren't even 40 points, they are 40points + the 10points on Frag grenades you can't get rid of!

I read the Frag part, where is the have to pay for them part? They wouldnt say 40 and you HAVE to buy them frag for 10 more, they would just say they are 50 and come with frag.

@Gestalt: Drop Troops are a FREE Doctrine, and Vets are hands-down the most efficient Elites pick available, so you always remove the 0-1 restriction. 3 units of Deep-Striking Vets with triple Melta (or Plasma) should be the default reference point.

Vets are rumored to link into the Platoon, so they could have it. But the key point is that Vets don't need the order to be awesome - they are already awesome. And gaining an order only makes them even more awesome than 16-pt Storms could ever be.

Besides, we're rumored to get 3 Valks per FA slot. We won't need overpriced Storms in there.

John, you're acting as though H-Vets aren't changing and are, in fact, getting better with the addition of Orders.

Drop Troops is gone. No more. It's an Ex-Doctrine. Vets without it aren't what they once were.

In a previous thread I stated that this book might result in the sale of my $1k+ guard army... It's starting to look that way. CSM ftw!

H.B.M.C. wrote:John, you're acting as though H-Vets aren't changing and are, in fact, getting better with the addition of Orders.

Drop Troops is gone. No more. It's an Ex-Doctrine. Vets without it aren't what they once were.

Are you always this pessimistic?

Actually, the above is downright sunshiney and rosey...