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While I understand the justifications for 16pt Stormtroopers, its a bit steep for a unit with inferior stats and lower life expectancy relative to a Space Marine. A few well placed Stormtrooper units is it for me, I can't imagine a full army of these guys doing all that well.

The only thing I need to know is:

-Are the special weapon squads still 6 men?
-Are you allowed to specials in a normal squad?
-Are the heavy weapons squads just 3 heavy weapon bases or are they 3 bases and 4 guard?

That's pretty much it since those are the only concerns about how i'm building my infantry squads.

Great update, I have a few points that would like clarification.

1. The order that allows from 2/3 shots, does it only apply to lasguns, or all rapidfire guns (read: plasmaguns)?
2. The order that gives the Heavy Weapons TL when shooting at tank/mc, does it still give +1 against AV?
3. Any more specifics on the Leman Russ rule? Can we fire our ordnance and other weapons?
4. Any specifics on Ogryns/RoughRiders?
5. Do Chimeras for command squads give the Officer an extra order?
6. Confirmations that Commissars grant Stubborn?
7. Specifics on merging platoons?


Got to get my hands on this codex!

So we can make the punisher with Stormlord bitz, the eradicator with baneblade bitz, a Vanquisher with Shadowsword bitz.... Which new LR varient is GW no asking you to buy a super heavy in order to build?

I guess the exterminator and the executioner are out no matter how you cut it.

Watching this thread all day today...

Just like hulk said... only a few more nebulous questions floating around before I can confidently finish up my guard.

how many men in a heavy weapons squad?

how many men in a special weapons squad?

How do you get sniper rifles for regular guardsmen?

Which squads can deploy as one unit? I've heard just the standard ten man squads can all form up but the special weapons and the heavy weapons will be munsoned.

Does the chimera special rule give an extra order?

Can artillery be taken in squadrons as well as leman russes?


Thanks for sharing S8n. It's really cool of you to do so, and it sounds like I'm going to be very happy when the book hits.

Righto...

I think...:

Special weapons teams are 6 men, 3 can take "stuff".

I believe the Chimera rule is perhaps being confused with the fact that orders can still be isdued whilst embarked--measure from hull-- and can affect ( I think) units embarked upon a tank.

Oh, believe the Chimera fire point has been tweaked, believe that 5 models can shoot out of the top-- it's assumed some are using the hull mounted guns, otehrs lean out etc etc. Weirdly I didn't see anything that therefore made this open topped, but I'm not 100% certain of that.

1. The order that allows from 2/3 shots, does it only apply to lasguns, or all rapidfire guns (read: plasmaguns)?
2. The order that gives the Heavy Weapons TL when shooting at tank/mc, does it still give +1 against AV?
3. Any more specifics on the Leman Russ rule? Can we fire our ordnance and other weapons?
4. Any specifics on Ogryns/RoughRiders?

I think it is only rapid fire weapons, so extra shots with plasma, but not with lascannons etc etc.

2. Don't think so.
3 Yes. Can fire "turret" weapon-- including ordnance and other weapons as well.
4. They are in there, lances are there, ripper guns are there. RR character can give them FC....and I presume something else.

Heavy weapon teams are 2 men on 1 base-- like in the summary sheet.

I think the merging is literally every troop and coommand squad in a platoon just "merge" as one. Great for orders though eh ?

That's pretty much all i can say really for the questions asked. Sorry can't tell you more.

basically you can run a very strong ARMY list in a variety of ways from what I saw, with the option of adding engineseers, individual or units of psykers, priests etc for that added 40K twist.

reds8n wrote:That's pretty much all i can say really for the questions asked. Sorry can't tell you more.

Thanks man, it is totally appreciated.

Red, did they fix the Kill points problem?

Overall, I'm liking the orders, but I'm becoming very worried about points costs...
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don_mondo wrote:The current IG 'dex used as an Infantry spam is fairly good.

I'll second that, but that's because we get Drop Troops for free...
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AffliKtion wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Red S8n, could you please confirm that Stormtroopers are/are not 16 points?

They are, but it sure as hell isn't a downer.

They get Krak/Frag,Hellguns(Ap3 mind you)/Hellpistol and CCW, Targetters, Infiltrate and Deepstrike FOR FREE, and a couple of special rules.

Targeters and AP3 on the Hellgun barely makes the models worth 10 pts, if you stretch the value of an S3 AP3 gun (especially as it cuts to 18" range), so you're paying 6 (closer to 8) pts for Infiltrate, Deep Strike, and Special Rules.

10-pt Inquisition Storms, all the way!

And really, if I'm going to pay over 10 pts for a S3 T3 model, I'm taking Sisters with their Sv3+ PA and Faith. The girls are easily worth their points.

Now, if the new Storms were *all* carrying effectively mini-Plasma Guns (R24" S6 AP3 Rapid-Fire) *and* had "FREE" Deep Strike, *then* I could see 16 pts for them. It'd be a perfect suicide squad with the firepower to easily rape any unit when it drops, so it'll pay for itself before it gets wiped out in retribution.

Or, for 16 pts/model, maybe Storms get a "free" Valkyrie? That can transport Scoring Troops? Yeah, that'd be OK.

But non-Scoring 16-pt IG Storms with S3 guns?? No freakin' way.


Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.

Wow, lumbering behemoth includes Ordnance. That's impressive news.

@AfflicKtion - the troops merging into one giant mega-platoon is GW's fix to the Kill points problem.

@reds8n:

what did you mean when you said that orders are given in the shooting phase and can't be given if the unit activated? does that mean that the target of the order can't move in the movement phase? or the person giving the order can't move?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.

I bet you're so proud right about now.

I would probably still use a squad or maybe two (depends on what else is in the elite slot) of stormtroopers. 16 points for me is reasonable for what I'd use them for. Their job is to blunt fast strike MEQ units. They'll do that very well for their points even at 16 points.

warboss wrote:@reds8n:

what did you mean when you said that orders are given in the shooting phase and can't be given if the unit activated? does that mean that the target of the order can't move in the movement phase? or the person giving the order can't move?

You couldn't shoot the unit and then use another order on them for example. So you couldn't have a unit fire and then order them to Move move move and run.

NOt sure how this works with regards to the coversave rule, I would assume that you give this order in your own shooting phase to be ready for the enemy phase....

You are very welcome Mr. Shep.

I actually hope that the new toys in the IG codex are point priced appropriately. I really don't want to see a situation where everything is overpowered/underpointed . I mean yeah, the Guard have been, in GENERAL, getting their heads caved in for a long time, and they deserve their day in the sun just like everyone else. Few armies have earned it like the IG. But it would just be disgusting for them to break stuff as bad as I could see them doing just to push sales. Thankfully, looking at the SM codex, I think they will keep it under control. But the IG do appear to be approaching ascendancy.

Red, one question from me:

Are Heavy Stubbers an option for squads, and if so, are they Teams(like Lascannon, auto, etc.) or "Specials"(like Plasma, Melta, etc.)?

It really depends on who writes it (the studio new guy) and who checks up on him when he's done (Jervis)

Are heavy weapon squads an option for platoons?
Can you merge together platoons to form, say, 2 large-ish squads, or can you only merge all or nothing? Can you merge the command squads in with the regular squads?

Platuan4th wrote:Red, one question from me:

Are Heavy Stubbers an option for squads, and if so, are they Teams(like Lascannon, auto, etc.) or "Specials"(like Plasma, Melta, etc.)?

In all honesty I couldn't tell you for 100% certain. Apologies.

I don't think so though, I think the heavy weapon options were/are limite to the "classics".

...but... if they are a heavy weapon then I would say it would be logical for them to be treated as a 2w model, like all the others.

Modified title to reflect update date.

Question: The cover save order... is that +2 if you go to ground, or just for any cover save?

+2 to any cover save up to 2+.

Unless it can be given in your opponents turn it seems kinda odd. Oh whats that? You wasted your order on upping their cover? Guess I won't shoot them then!

Perhaps that is the point?

You can see what they're doing with this Codex and the Orders System. They are shifting the focus of Guard away from the type of army you design when making a list with Doctrines and changing it so that the unique flavour of the Guard comes during the game with the tactical choices that come via Orders. Of course, while I applaud this attempt at changing the way Guard work, it won't work. Within two weeks to two months the 1 or 2 killer builds will be known by all, and they'll be designed to squeeze as much efficiency and power out of the Orders system as possible.


And I'm 100% with DD on the whole 16 point Storm Trooper thing. They're not worth as much as a Marine - not in a million frakking years. AP3 gun? Means nothing in 5th Ed where cover saves are everywhere. Deep Strike and Infiltrate? They should have had them already for 10 points in the last Codex.

Betcha they have to pay more for their special weapons as well and will still only be able to get 2 per squad.

As I said early on, and John did as well, they are the Possessed of this Codex, the unit that gets a shiny new model kit but pathetic rules. The only other candidate for that in this Codex was the Hellhound, but we don't even know if it is getting a new model.

H.B.M.C. wrote:As I said early on, and John did as well, they are the Possessed of this Codex, the unit that gets a shiny new model kit but pathetic rules. The only other candidate for that in this Codex was the Hellhound, but we don't even know if it is getting a new model.

What shiny new model kit? Where? There's certainly none on the release schedule that we know of.

If the 16pt stormtrooper is true (and i really hope it is not), then the other "special rule" they get better be freaking awesome.

6man special weapon squads, not sure how i feel about that. I was hoping for 10man squads, but i guess there has to be a reason for normal infantry squads (hopefully the rumor that they can take 2 specials instead of a heavy is true).

I am optimistic about the Order system, it sounds like it will add a lot to game play and feel of IG. While I am sure that there will be "optimal" setups (like there is with everything), it will not be as restrictive as the doctrine system, and will allow for more tactical flexibility.

Aggy, We don't know what's on the release schedule. Period.

We're pretty sure about some things, like the approximate makeup of the First Wave, but the only thing we know for sure is that a Codex is coming out in May.

And we've seen Greens for things that could be Storm Troopers, and would likely be a Planet Strike release.

BoxANT wrote:I am optimistic about the Order system, it sounds like it will add a lot to game play and feel of IG. While I am sure that there will be "optimal" setups (like there is with everything), it will not be as restrictive as the doctrine system, and will allow for more tactical flexibility.

It doesn't matter how restrictive it is, the optimal setups will be as narrow as always and the ensuing tournament metagame as degenerate as always.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.

I bet you're so proud right about now.

You did see the crying emoticon, right?
____

Hulksmash wrote:I would probably still use a squad or maybe two (depends on what else is in the elite slot) of stormtroopers. 16 points for me is reasonable for what I'd use them for. Their job is to blunt fast strike MEQ units. They'll do that very well for their points even at 16 points.

For 160 pts of basic Storms against 160 pts of basic Marines, it looks like this:

10 Marines double-tap Storms = 20 shots, 13 hits, 9 wounds, 4+ kills...
10 Storms double-tap Marines = 20 shots, 13 hits, 4+ wounds...

For the same points they are equally good at killing each other, but...

- Marines are still Sv3+ armor, and don't care if a S6+ AP4 pie plate drops nearby. Marines get free Flamer and HB, so if they Pod adjacent to the Storms, they auto-win.

- Storms depend on AP3 in a world of 4++ Cover, which means that those Storms shooting at Marines with any cover only kill 2+ Marines, making them only half as good at the shooting they're supposed to (now) be good at.

- Surviving Marines are still WS4 S4 T4 I4 and will easily crush the WS3 S3 T3 I3 Storms in HTH.

2x 6 Inq Storms with 2 Plasma each are a much better use of 160 pts.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Aggy, We don't know what's on the release schedule. Period.

We're pretty sure about some things, like the approximate makeup of the First Wave, but the only thing we know for sure is that a Codex is coming out in May.

And we've seen Greens for things that could be Storm Troopers, and would likely be a Planet Strike release.

Uhm. Say, has no one pointed out that the little promo sheets at GW has release dates on them?

According to the little sheet, everything in Wave 1 is coming on May 2nd and May 16th, seemingly split. The Valkyrie and sentinel kit are on May 16th, along with the new Battleforces (not certain on that one), the command squads are on May 2nd, along with the new repackaged infantry boxes.

I can't remember when the blisters are coming out, I think the Commissar Lord was 16th (because I was pissed I had to wait for my sekseh new commissar) along with the direct only advisors. The Psyker Primaris was May 2nd, I believe. Don't remember on the ratlings because I just don't care about space hobbits, regardless of how ripped they are.

I may have some dates swapped, but these are definitely the only 2 dates on the sheet, and everything had a date right next to the name.