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We're talking about GW here. Pessimism is always warranted.

I think a lot of this stuff is pretty irrelevent unless they give us a VERY dramatic increase in firepower (enough to shut down turn 2 assaults) or something that can perform competently in melee.

Tek wrote:"An extra shot order"

Oh great, so we lose Bladestorm as well now.

Gee thanks GW.

DA/BA + others have lost their special rules to the general population a long time ago. This is nothing new.

foil7102 wrote:1) 16pt Karskin... are they for real

Might be overcosted. not sure what the missions entail. Those missions could be pretty outstanding. The one associated with infiltrate gave their first round of shooting something special.

foil7102 wrote:2) 55 points base for a squad... so 5 points cheaper

I guess its actually 50, and they may or may not come with base special/heavy weapons. Frag grenades as standard (for strength 4 rear armor in CC) That's 10 points cheaper, actually 20 if you were crazy enough to buy frag grenades, infantry isn't going to be where guard get their power builds from, regardless of how spiffy the order system is.

foil7102 wrote:3) Heavy weapons point drop, but plasma goes up in price, the rest of the specials do not change

plasma is looking like it will have a huge benefit from a particular order.

foil7102 wrote:4) Increase in cost of the stock Russ. So what if we can take 3 at a time

The basic russ just got a ridiculously powerful special rule. And under 5th ed rules, the basic russ had recently become VERY difficult to kill, with a pillow of guardsmen blocking any short ranged melta shot, and their firepower going up drastically, look to the armor spam to be our first 'complained about' list.

foil7102 wrote:5) 100 point Valkeries

You might have something. Valkyries might not be the most cutting edge unit. I'm still unsure of their full weapons loadout.

foil7102 wrote:6) Still overpriced chimera's.

55 points is a steal for a chimera. Armor 12 front, two longer range heavy weapons, 5 people can fire out the fire point? Will be crucial to keep command squads alive when not 'combat squadded' for KP missions.

foil7102 wrote:7) Option to warp into one super sqaud. So when I get assaulted I loose 55 guys instead of 10.

But didn't you buy a commissar? Aren't you stubborn with a high leadership? You aren't required to make your platoons 55 models strong, or to combine them. And you only combined them in an annihilation mission, and your opponent just went after your troop choice during a KP mission leaving your truly deadly units all alone. he can consolidate his mighty D6 inches in front of your untold numbers of pie plates and souffles.

foil7102 wrote:8) special characters who are still t3 base

I just don't see this as being a big deal. unless they were expected to wade into nasty close combats.

foil7102 wrote:9) Command squads are even bigger targets, still give up 2 kp, and are still super easy to kill.

Who says they are worth 2 kp. I haven't seen anything to suggest the officer is an indy. And they aren't hard to kill if you invest in a 55 point chimera, they stay inside till it dies then spill out of the back.

foil7102 wrote:10) I have seen no info on the cost of command squads... With these new "commands" I am willing to bet the same price or more.

We haven't seen the cost. I'm not expecting anything drastic up or down. What I'm curious about is their access to special/heavy weaponry. Will they have a role outside of their one order a turn? I'm pretty sure they will, will medics/standard bearers/voxes be cost efficient? Hopefully, but it won't be vital to making a tourney guard list. if they were shockingly expensive, like over 100 points, then they might be problematic. But I just don't forsee that happening.


I don't mean to completely focus on your post and dissect it, but you just brought up a lot of concerns that I've seen, all of which aren't really anything to be concerned about.

If you can combine smallish infantry platoons to one unit, officers are not ICs, and vehicles are taken in squadrons, then the KP issue is solved as far as I am concerned.

Assuming 25 men platoons run around 200 add a chimera for the command thats 750 in troops if you take 3x platoons, Spend ~200 on an HQ/chimera, 6x leman russes in three squads of 2 could fill out a list, for a total of 11 KP. That is impressive for any list, particularly one that has transports.

For a more aggressive brand of play, you could run 2x 25 man platoons with chimeras, make the 6 russes in 2x squads and buy a manticore and some amount of heavy sentinels. Still gives the same number of KP, but has a marked increase in firepower. That list has 7+d3 pie per turn, (remember when people complained about iron warriors having 4 pie plates a turn?) 9-13 heavy weapons (not counting russ sponsons), and 6 individual scoring units with access to three armor 12 transports.

I'm not concerned about guards power level at all, the codex sounds like its full of fun choices to make, people will see things differently and come to new and different power lists. One will rise to the top as is unavoidable in any game system, but there looks to be plenty of fun things to do in the codex, simply based on these rumors.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Are you always this pessimistic?

Give me a fething break. There's nothing pessimistic about what I said. Drop Troops (and every other Doctrine) isn't in the Codex. That's not pessimistic. That's a fact.

And I can't get past the simple incongruity of DD's argument when he's saying that Vets are better than 16 point Storm Troopers when, in a month's time, Vets won't do what Vet's do now, making the comparison useless. I completely agree with DD that 16 point Stormies are a complete joke, but comparing them to a unit that in a few weeks will cease to be doesn't help matters and it doesn't prove much either.

Ah, that reminds me.

Something we're all forgetting about the 40 point vs 50 point Guard Squad. Yeah, having Frag Grenades we neither want nor need sucks, but the price of the squad will no doubt include the Sergeant, who, according to the summary, is Ld8.

So they're not 5 point Guardsmen... they're 4 point Guardsmen with Frag Grenades and a boost to Ld8 for +10 points.

event at 55pts, the Chimera isn't a "steal". It's far and away better than it currently is, no doubt about it, but it's still a bit much considering what it's transporting (wet noodle guardsmen), the AV10 side armor, BS3, rear-only hatch, etc.

At 55 pts, the Chimera is only overpriced by around 10 pts, as opposed to being nearly twice what it should cost.

At 55 pts, a dual gun BS3 Chimera should be AV12/12/10...

Vaktathi wrote:event at 55pts, the Chimera isn't a "steal". It's far and away better than it currently is, no doubt about it, but it's still a bit much considering what it's transporting (wet noodle guardsmen), the AV10 side armor, BS3, rear-only hatch, etc.

See, I thought that too and then I thought of a Devil Fish, which is 90 pts. And, yes, it gets a lot of awesome stuff for 35 pts more but if you took the BS and the stronger side armor away...it'd be a 55 WAIT A MINUTE!!

Devil Fish are over costed, so that's not a good comparison. Why are Devil Fish overcosted? Because they come from a time when Rhinos were still 50 points and Chimeras were 70 without guns.

Mickhedd wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:event at 55pts, the Chimera isn't a "steal". It's far and away better than it currently is, no doubt about it, but it's still a bit much considering what it's transporting (wet noodle guardsmen), the AV10 side armor, BS3, rear-only hatch, etc.

See, I thought that too and then I thought of a Devil Fish, which is 90 pts. And, yes, it gets a lot of awesome stuff for 35 pts more but if you took the BS and the stronger side armor away...it'd be a 55 WAIT A MINUTE!!

Don't forget that they carry side hatches through and for 85pts they get a constant 4+ cover save even when stationary. Side hatches are *huge*, meaning they don't have to expose the weakest armor to disembark troops into a firing position like the Chimera does.

That said, the Devilfish is also a touch expensive for what it does.

Has anyone spotted if Carapace armour is still availabe and if Stortroopers (or similar) can be taken as troops?

reds8n wrote:

3. Any more specifics on the Leman Russ rule? Can we fire our ordnance and other weapons?

3 Yes. Can fire "turret" weapon-- including ordnance and other weapons as well.

If only my Demonically possessed Defilers could do that, they might be worth fielding.

I actually think I'll finish my Guard army now, most of the new rules look great.

George Spiggott wrote:Has anyone spotted if Carapace armour is still availabe and if Stortroopers (or similar) can be taken as troops?

Carapace for platoons is apparently gone, but Stormtroopers can still supposedly be taken as Troops.

I think it's premature to say that the new list is going to be weaker than the current list. But I acknowledge the possibility. Drop Troopers is crazy-strong, and helps make up for a lot of the shortcomings of the current IG codex.

That said, doctrines are going to significantly increase the power of IG infantry. Twin-linking versus tanks and MCs represents a huge bump in the efficacy of AT squads that greatly reduces the threat of a lot of popular units like Lash Princes. And if Chimeras get 5 fire ports without being open topped, Veterans and PHQs won't need Deep Strike so much.

Given these improvements to infantry and Chimeras, I'm not quite "getting" more expensive tanks. With everything else getting cheaper and better, I don't quite get why tanks would balance their improvements by becoming more expensive. Especially since those improvements are already balanced by variable movement, which can be a big deal for Tank Shocking and contesting objectives. Squadron rules seem ill suited for units as expensive as Leman Russes, so I don't see myself taking more than three tanks in a "serious" game.

In these last 2-3 pages, I have gone from excited and hopeful, to disappointed and annoyed.

The heck with this.

All of this stuff is starting to sound really great. I suppose that this is because the book has actually been seen. The pre-release articles and ads have been sent out. The rumors are materializing into an exciting new day for all of us 'old guard.'

sooo, if anybody has a PDF please PM me w/ link, thanks.

I don't think a PDF is out yet. I'd check 4Chan, but I'm at work and don't want to get sacked.

Guard armies are going to function differently then what we're used too but these rumors terrify me. They are sounding like orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules.

They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts. Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.

Tier one is getting a new friend in a month and a half.

ShumaGorath wrote:They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.

That are T3 S3 I3 WS3 Ld7/8 with S3 guns and a 4+ armor save. They have a lot of cool abilities but are likely to end up as one-shot units most of the time. I'd take basic CSM's any day of the week for overall effectiveness from the rumors I've heard. I'd rather they had left them at 10 and just given them assault 3 18" AP5 hellguns personally. 16 just makes them sound like the IG's Possessed/Vanguard.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't think a PDF is out yet. I'd check 4Chan, but I'm at work and don't want to get sacked.

4chan is the first place to look for a leaked PDF? Did I miss something?

Gestalt wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't think a PDF is out yet. I'd check 4Chan, but I'm at work and don't want to get sacked.

4chan is the first place to look for a leaked PDF? Did I miss something?

Whats 4chan? Also no, when it hits 4chan, wherever or whatever that is, it will be noisy.

ChickenLittle wrote:They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts. Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.

I also heard a rumour that Vanquishers can shoot through hills!!!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ChickenLittle wrote:They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts. Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.

I also heard a rumour that Vanquishers can shoot through hills!!!

Yeah, and there can be nine of them.

So lets count this list so far. All LRs are squadrons and its not limited. The plasmaruss exists. The deathstrike exists. Penal troops have gaunt statlines and rending for less points. Heavy sentinals are apparenltly as hardy as dreadnauts with the same gun options. Every unit can have rediculous anti tank orders or the ability to become pathfinders/lictors whenever someone shouts at them. Oh, and they all get to turn into one giant kill point.

None of this sounds a bit extreme to you? I was happy to switch to my nice happy medium tier marine codex from the tyranid abomination. But I think that was the low point on the GW power rollercoaster.

Most of that would be extreme, but you are exaggerating almost all of them and mentioning none of the drawbacks.

Argh my brain!

The new codex will be overpowered!

The new codex will be underpowered!


Quick, I need someone to tell me what to think about the new codex that hasn't been released yet!

Gestalt wrote:Most of that would be extreme, but you are exaggerating almost all of them and mentioning none of the drawbacks.

Which drawbacks? The ones where everything but the russes drop in points? Or the one where the russes get better armor?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Gestalt wrote:Most of that would be extreme, but you are exaggerating almost all of them and mentioning none of the drawbacks.

Which drawbacks? The ones where everything but the russes drop in points? Or the one where the russes get better armor?

To take Russ tanks en masse they must be taken in squadrons, meaning one nob with powerfist getting into one can kill all three in one go quite easily.

Heavy Sentinels lack the side armor, BS, CC ability or Drop Pod potential of Dreads.

Squads have to pass their Ld8 leadership to go on orders, and to take advantage of "becoming pathfinders" they have to pin themselves. When combining into one squad, an entire platoon can be easily eliminated by one assault from almost anything and loses the ability to split fire.

As for penal troops with Gaunt statlines, nobody is going to argue that both Gaunts and Hormagaunts are horrifically overpriced.

All LRs are squadrons and its not limited.
-~600 points for 3 tanks, as a squadron Immobilized = Destroyed

The plasmaruss exists.
-again points

The deathstrike exists.
-yeah this is just silly, it belongs in apoc

Penal troops have gaunt statlines and rending for less points.
-they have a random roll like possessed, no one will use them

Heavy sentinals are apparenltly as hardy as dreadnauts with the same gun options.
-AV12/10/10 no scout, 1x BS3 weapon Dreads are 12/12/10 with 2x BS4 weapons
Every unit can have rediculous anti tank orders or the ability to become pathfinders/lictors whenever someone shouts at them.
-1 unit per turn gets twin linked heavy weapons is not ridiculous, units going to ground (not shooting) and getting a bonus to the cover save is not extreme

Oh, and they all get to turn into one giant kill point.
-which still has as many KP as other armies and all run away/sweeping advance at once and have to shoot at one target. Really? You think IG with KP is a guard advantage?

ShumaGorath wrote:Guard armies are going to function differently then what we're used too but these rumors terrify me. They are sounding like orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules.

OOh, scary 16 point T3 4+ save troops! Tremble before them!

They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts.

If they follow the current trend, Marbo will be around 300 points and the gaunts will be around 10 each.

Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.

Tier one is getting a new friend in a month and a half.

Sorry to burst your bubble of exaggeration, but following the current trend this won't come true.

P.S. There's this old dude who lives within a mile of my house who has these "the end is near" signs. You should go hang out with him sometime, it seems that you have similar interests.