Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Same old discussion that we have on Dakka every time a new codex is released.

Wow, this nerdrage is getting intense. Jus tthought I would leave that here.

All LRs are squadrons and its not limited.
-~600 points for 3 tanks, as a squadron Immobilized = Destroyed

True, but armies that don't specialize in anti armor will have an incredibly hard time bringing down 6 or more FA14 tanks with immense firepower. I know my army is going to be toothless against a LR mech force.

The plasmaruss exists.
-again points

210 isn't that much considering it's capable of killing a full terminator squad on average rolls and a half squad on bad ones. Or really anything else it turns its attention too in one round of shooting. 210 isn't that much when you consider that it can easily eliminate an entire marine squad every turn and those are also 200 points.

Penal troops have gaunt statlines and rending for less points.
-they have a random roll like possessed, no one will use them

Except unlike the possessed they are ludicrously cheap and their two possibilities don't seem to go against army comp or deployment in any way. They aren't going to roll fleet or wings after being placed in a rhino.

Heavy sentinals are apparenltly as hardy as dreadnauts with the same gun options.
-AV12/10/10 no scout, 1x BS3 weapon Dreads are 12/12/10 with 2x BS4 weapons

I'll take two MM or plasma sentinals over one dread with a las/plas and a gloriously effective missile launcher.

-1 unit per turn gets twin linked heavy weapons is not ridiculous, units going to ground (not shooting) and getting a bonus to the cover save is not extreme

It's pretty extreme when you get to have those options on any unit when its conveniant. Even then though its not that extreme, just when its coupled with a substantial near army wide points decrease and increase in armament does it start to sound like a bit much. It's like how the orks got cheaper then got furious charge. And then they all got frag grenades..

-which still has as many KP as other armies and all run away/sweeping advance at once and have to shoot at one target. Really? You think IG with KP is a guard advantage?

Depending on how the army is constructed having 15+ scoring units in game with objectives and a single kill point in KP missions is a pretty nice option. I can see russ hordes running along side the two ameoba squads in any KP game. Keep in mind, three russes in a squadron is also only one KP, and its not hard to imagine 9 russes, an amoeba squad and an HQ choice being a 5 KP army.

If they follow the current trend, Marbo will be around 300 points and the gaunts will be around 10 each.

What are you talking about? Everything except the russ in the codex is getting cheaper.

ShumaGorath wrote:
True, but armies that don't specialize in anti armor will have an incredibly hard time bringing down 6 or more FA14 tanks with immense firepower. I know my army is going to be toothless against a LR mech force.

Get in there with a powerfist if you lack ranged anti-tank, it will work wonders. static heavy weapons like Lascannons have been the least effective heavy tank killers since 5E came out.

210 isn't that much considering it's capable of killing a full terminator squad on average rolls and a half squad on bad ones. Or really anything else it turns its attention too in one round of shooting. 210 isn't that much when you consider that it can easily eliminate an entire marine squad every turn and those are also 200 points.

I think it just means don't DS them where an Executioner is going to burn them, or have them Run after DSing. If spread out over the 2" coherency, it's much much harder to kill termi's. Same deal as if you were in range and LoS of a demolisher (2 PC's+LC or Demo cannon) or a Vindi.

Yes it sounds disgusting, yes it may be the IG cheese unit, but we don't have points out yet for it. If it's 200 or so, expect to see it in almost every IG army. If it's 275-300, nobody will ever field it.

Except unlike the possessed they are ludicrously cheap and their two possibilities don't seem to go against army comp or deployment in any way. They aren't going to roll fleet or wings after being placed in a rhino.

We don't know what else this unit has or is disadvantaged with. It certainly seems very cool right now, and my end up being so, but it's also a T3 S3 I3 unit that's going to die very easily.

I'll take two MM or plasma sentinals over one dread with a las/plas and a gloriously effective missile launcher.

I'd take a Dread with lascannon and a DCCW over two MM sentinels any day of the week. The dread can wade into a unit of Orks or Space Marines and crush faces, the Sentinels cannot.

It's pretty extreme when you get to have those options on any unit when its conveniant. Even then though its not that extreme, just when its coupled with a substantial near army wide points decrease and increase in armament does it start to sound like a bit much. It's like how the orks got cheaper then got furious charge.

Given how overcosted IG heavy weapons and basic troopers are now, without reducing them to ludicrous points values I think it's a decent compromise. Would you rather have faced 300 guardsmen packing 65 heavy weapons and 70 specials?

And then they all got frag grenades..

Because we all know how effective those are on Guardsmen Most IG players would rather not have them and have cheaper dudes.

Depending on how the army is constructed having 15+ scoring units in game with objectives and a single kill point in KP missions is a pretty nice option. I can see russ hordes running along side the two ameoba squads in any KP game. Keep in mind, three russes in a squadron is also only one KP, and its not hard to imagine 9 russes, two amoeba squads and an HQ choice being a 6 KP army.

This is the result of an awkward solution to a poor game mechanic, and there exist significant vulnerabilities in amalgamating such units. One CSM squad charging a 55man platoon is probably going to run it down. One Daemon Prince into an LR squadron stands a very good chance of killing off all 3.

What are you talking about? Everything except the russ in the codex is getting cheaper.

And Stormtroopers, 60% cost increase. Say hello to IG's Vanguard Vets.

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, and there can be nine of them.

I was kidding... but I suspect you knew that. And Vanq's are horrible as written in the new Guard Codex. You'd need to take 9 of them in order for them to be effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:All LRs are squadrons and its not limited.

Which is good, because arbitrarily limiting some would make no sense. Furthermore if they are true Squadrons, as in 'Immobilisation = Death', then it's really not so bad.

ShumaGorath wrote:The plasmaruss exists.

With so many cover saves in 5th I really don't see the issue with big AP3 and AP2 beasties. Plus it's going to cost as much as a Land Raider yet not have the armour or the transport capacity, so you're not exactly going to be bringing nine of them to a standard battle.

ShumaGorath wrote:The deathstrike exists.

And is a waste of time.

ShumaGorath wrote:Penal troops have gaunt statlines and rending for less points.

And roll randomly for abilities, like Possessed, and everyone takes those.

ShumaGorath wrote:Heavy sentinals are apparenltly as hardy as dreadnauts with the same gun options.

TL-Lascannons and DCCWs? No. They've got Plasma Cannons and Missile Launchers added, and the front is AV12. Side is still AV10 according to the summary sheet.

ShumaGorath wrote:Every unit can have rediculous anti tank orders or the ability to become pathfinders/lictors whenever someone shouts at them.

They get a re-roll. Oooooh!

ShumaGorath wrote:Oh, and they all get to turn into one giant kill point.

Yes 'cause the current KP situation with Guard is so much better. Look, I'll level with you, the amorphus blob Platoon idea is idiotic, but they had to do something about KPs.

ShumaGorath wrote:None of this sounds a bit extreme to you?

No more than free Drop Troops and free Initiative 4 for all Guardsmen through CoD. It sounds better than the current Guard list, I'll give you that, but extreme? No. And you might be the only person who thinks the new Storm Troopers sound even remotley useful.

ShumaGorath wrote:I was happy to switch to my nice happy medium tier marine codex from the tyranid abomination. But I think that was the low point on the GW power rollercoaster.

The Tyranids are an abomination not because of power, but because of focus - they shifted the army away from hordes towards TMCs - and for that it fails, even if it happened to be 100% balanced (which it isn't, but that's not the point).

BYE

We don't know what else this unit has or is disadvantaged with. It certainly seems very cool right now, and my end up being so, but it's also a T3 S3 I3 unit that's going to die very easily.

But it will hit the opponant hard before it does, and even then it likely is going to be a fraction of the army. The only big issue being the KP it occupies, can these amoeba too?

Get in there with a powerfist if you lack ranged anti-tank, it will work wonders. static heavy weapons like Lascannons have been the least effective heavy tank killers since 5E came out.

I don't think it's going to be that easy to get a powerfist through the killzone of ap3 ordinance, lascanons, and heavy bolters. Especially not with a rending penal legion covering the front and sides of six tanks at the same time. It's only easy to assault unprotected squadrons, and the IG hardly seem like an army that can't field a speed bump unit.

I'd take a Dread with lascannon and a DCCW over two MM sentinels any day of the week. The dread can wade into a unit of Orks or Space Marines and crush faces, the Sentinels cannot.

Given the immense amount of ap3 or better pie and blasts coming out of these rumors I doubt that the sentinals are going to really need to wade into the marines. As for orks, lootas nobs and PKs in squads tend to end that threat quicker then they should. Also the two sentinals are still AV 12 and you need two lucky kills to take them out of the game rather then one. They are a better tarpit against hordes.

This is the result of an awkward solution to a poor game mechanic, and there exist significant vulnerabilities in amalgamating such units. One CSM squad charging a 55man platoon is probably going to run it down. One Daemon Prince into an LR squadron stands a very good chance of killing off all 3.

I doubt the daemon prince is going to get through the manwall in front of the tanks that easily. Also given lumbering the tanks will probably be rolling away when and if they get hit. Statistically it's got good odds of killing one and maybe damaging a second. In response it'll almost certainly die in a horrible way.

As for the 55 man team running off the board, it'll probably have a commisar in there. I doub't it'l happen to a single chaos marine squad. LD 8 with seargeants rerollable with stubborn isn't that bad (the seargans make them 8 and commis reroll and stubborn right?) Hell, 10 on 55 is pretty good odds for the guardsman depending on whats in that amoeba.

I just lost a big reasoned response to HMBC because "the link was broken". Screw it. My synopsis was "seperate these rumors are all fine and good. Together they are worrying me."

The army sounds like a whole which is far greater then the sum of its parts. And its parts are all getting cheaper and more effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:The army sounds like a whole which is far greater then the sum of its parts. And its parts are all getting cheaper and more effective.

Given the new 50 point base squad, combined with 15 point PGs and probably mandatory vox casters I don't think my army will go down in points much. It has been rumored that tanks will increase in price. So far we know that chimeras decrease in price, and IG decrease slightly but have some more expensive significant options. Storm troopers are going up in price hugely and seem pretty bad. Tank squadrons seem bad, especially if tanks increase in cost too.
To me it seems like the army as a whole will be better, but not very much. Orders will be significant, but most things will stay very "meh".

ShumaGorath wrote:Guard armies are going to function differently then what we're used too but these rumors terrify me. They are sounding like orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules.

They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts. Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.

Tier one is getting a new friend in a month and a half.

While calling new IG "orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules" is pure hyperbole, I think the comparison with the Ork Codex is somewhat appropriate. Orks were an army list that dated back to 3rd Ed, and their new codex contained some new and powerful specialist units combined with a significant decrease in the point cost of their "bread and butter" units. It is therefore not all that "terrifying" or unprecedented to see a Codex receive a bump of this magnitude. And it's worth noting that the loss of doctrines is going to help balance some of these new goodies.

I'll ignore the rest of your post, save to point out that calling Storm Troopers "better space marines" is crazy enough to make me think that you're just trolling this thread.

@ Shuma: did you just say that the orks probably won't make it through the pie? Did you really just say that? Really? The power-Klaw delivery system known as boys can currently eat pie all day long and the nob will still get there 9/10 times. The ability to squeeze in 3-4 more tanks into an 1850 list probably won't stop them... cover, KFF and all.

You are making making massive assumptions. Assuming a tank squadron is unreachable by a daemon prince (who would have wings) because of the penal legion (who has rending even though you need to roll a 6) around it? And if you dont have any ranged anti-tank, and your Powerfists are walking across the board, it doesnt matter what army you go against now does it? I have no idea how Sentinels are better than SM dreads. This is getting silly.

Back on topic, have we got a confirmation on squad costs yet? 40, 50, 55, slight difference there. Did they explain the chimera lasguns in a way that I wont have to play it different at every store?

Dave47 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Guard armies are sounding like orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules.

Tier one is getting a new friend in a month and a half.

I'll ignore the rest of your post, save to point out that calling Storm Troopers "better space marines" is crazy enough to make me think that you're just trolling this thread.

Shuma "trolling"? Say it ain't so!

All I can do is think back to the SM Codex: Cheaper Marines with free gear sounded great. Sternguard sounded awesome. Vanguard sounded more awesome. Thunderfire sounded incredible. Then we saw the costs and tried to build armies... Not so awesome.

Guard seems to be heading down the same path.

Honestly 50 points for a Guard Squad isn't bad if the Ld8 Sergeant comes as standard.

BYE

My hope is that squads will be 50 points, come with frags, Ld8 Sgt and flamer/GL and HB/mortar. +5pts to upgrade to meltagun/Autocannon/Missile, +10points to upgrade Lascannon/Plasmagun.

But if it is just 50 points + guns, then i'll still be happy that i'm saving 10 points per squad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It sounds better than the current Guard list, I'll give you that, but extreme? No.

I'd argue against this. The new codex is looking weaker and weaker every passing day. Sure, we got a nice splash of optimism to start with, but when the chips are down, I believe it will be found that many people, me included, will yearn back to the underpowered crap armylist we currently have.

All I can say is wow. You guys went from yay guard to oh my god i'm gonna sell my army in less than 24 hours. Can we hold the doomsday rants until the book is actually out please

I'm excited about the new codex. Just lowering basic troop price in any way and dropping the chimera 30pts each is enough for me to be excited. But I guess I'm easy to please

To be fair, I was already skeptical last Friday, and have only become more and more so.

Rumors have gone from X-TREME and wishy to cold and underwhelming with the new information. It's not THAT bad but many things that we once thought would be awesome are turning out to have flaws that make them not so awesome.

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Agamemnon2 wrote:To be fair, I was already skeptical last Friday, and have only become more and more so.

Whoah there. The loss of drop troopers is a big deal, but let's not be hasty. On balance, I'm still anticipating a stronger Codex. As far as I can tell, this is the state of affairs with regards to verified information about the new Codex:

The Good
-Orders.
-Cheaper infantry with free Frag Grenades.
-Cheaper Chimeras that may have more fire ports and can (presumably) transport any squad, and not just the squad that bought them.
-Tanks have more side armor and are shootier.

The Bad
-No more doctrines.
-Tanks are slower and more expensive.

The Ugly
-16 point Storm Troopers. (You can't really call them "nerfed" since they haven't been worth taking for a decade, but it's sad that GW still can't figure out how to fix them.)

@ Vik,Ph34r,JHDD,HBMC,Aggy,Vak, and Kungfu_

(Sinister sibilant voice whispering) Yes, Yes, give into your fear and anger. Feel the power of the Dark Side within you. Let it control you through your fear so that you may tap into its power.

Yes, yes now that you are empowered by the fear of the unknown you can free yourself from the shackles of GW. THROW OFF THE OPPRESSIVE YOKE! and sell me your IG armies at one-tenth their value before the new codex comes out and enslaves you again.(Evil Laughter)

Dave47 wrote:The Bad
-No more doctrines.

I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. I'm sad to see the concept of Doctrines vanish into the shadows of 'Old 40K' (a mythical land of options and flavour where LatD Mutants and Kroot Mercs frollic in the sun with Iron Warriors and Non-Generic Daemons), but I'm not sad to see the actual Doctrine System we have go away. Like a lot of things GW does (and the Traits System fits right under this banner as well), the Doctrine System was a fantastic concept executed in a horrbily typical hamfisted manner. 80% of the Doctrines were useless, 15% of them were half-way decent, and the remaining 5% were damn-near mandatory.

Any system that gives you a bonus by forcing you to 'give up' something you weren't even going to take in the first place (eg. Priests for Guard, allies in a 'We Stand Alone' Marine force, etc.) is doomed to failure.

focusedfire, I just shat roflcakes

H.B.M.C. wrote:I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. I'm sad to see the concept of Doctrines vanish into the shadows of 'Old 40K' (a mythical land of options and flavour where LatD Mutants and Kroot Mercs frollic in the sun with Iron Warriors and Non-Generic Daemons), but I'm not sad to see the actual Doctrine System we have go away. Like a lot of things GW does (and the Traits System fits right under this banner as well), the Doctrine System was a fantastic concept executed in a horrbily typical hamfisted manner. 80% of the Doctrines were useless, 15% of them were half-way decent, and the remaining 5% were damn-near mandatory.

Oh, I agree with all of that. The general implementation of Doctrines was a disaster, what with most Doctrines only being "useful" in the sense that they could be used to quickly identify novice IG players. But there's no denying the incredible game-changing usefulness of things like Iron Discipline (pre 5th Ed.) or Drop Troopers (in all editions). And 5th Ed. combat rules meant you should almost always get +1 initiative from Close Order Drill, which can help you take down an extra Marine before your squad is annihilated.

Thus, the removal of these doctrines is something of a nerf, which helps to balance the new benefits IG players will be receiving.

focusedfire

(Sinister sibilant voice whispering) Yes, Yes, give into your fear and anger. Feel the power of the Dark Side within you. Let it control you through your fear so that you may tap into its power.

Yes, yes now that you are empowered by the fear of the unknown you can free yourself from the shackles of GW. THROW OFF THE OPPRESSIVE YOKE! and sell me your IG armies at one-tenth their value before the new codex comes out and enslaves you again.(Evil Laughter)

Colonel "Lady Death" Trevaline, CO 12001st Valusian: "Yes. Yes; I believe you are right...There is no hope anymore for my beloved Regiment. The future will be in the hands of those arrogant tankers. I should put in a request for transfer.. BLAM! The Regimental Comissar steps forward and addresses the troops with a cold voice. "There will be no transfers! There will be no steps backwards or anymore talk about Tank Squadrons in this regiment!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Honestly 50 points for a Guard Squad isn't bad if the Ld8 Sergeant comes as standard.

BYE

10 men including serg indeed.

Same old discussion that we have on Dakka every time a new codex is released

QFT.

Same old fething dakka. No wonder this site has such a bad rep.

You should all listen to Mr. Shep more, he seems to know what he is talking about.
Or, you know, wait until you actually see the book, as opposed to getting worried about half arsed recollections of some degenerate burnout who.... errr..... hang on...!

Everytime you get out reds8n, we PULL YOU BACK IN!

Not just Dakka, every place has this amount of piss and whining. Less piss and whining, more fething piss and vinegar you gaks!

Give it a few months and people will rear their ugly gobs at the next codex or army book, again crying and waving their hammy excuses for arms around crying "how could you!" and GW will look down on them and whisper "because.."

They are just jerks like that... Jerky jerk faces with their jerk plastic, oh how I love the jerk plastic....