so what has changed in 7th?

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**Thud**

jasper76 wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
Anyone figure out how codexes/supplements get to Ally with themselves now? It seems that Allies MUST be from a different faction (wth?).

Well look at that...you can't bring an Allied Detachment from the same army. Page 122/Allied Detachment/Restrictions/Line 4

But it does look like you can fill up your primary detachment with a mix of parent codex and supplement.

**Sir Arun**

SisterSydney wrote:
Aha! So this trick

Sir Arun wrote:
Yep. You can take 1 HQ and 2 Troops and then fill out your favorite slot (like Heavy Support) and then take another HQ, 2 more troops and continue to fill more Heavy Support slots, all in an army less than 2000 points (double FoC was only 2k and more in 6th).....

won't let you spam one particular unit. You'd have to have, say, buy a Captain, two Tac Squads, and three Predators; then a Company Command Squad, two Veteran Squads, and three Leman Russes; etc.

how so? I can buy a captain, 2 min sized scout squads, 3 vindicators, then another captain, 2 min sized scouts, and another 3 vindicators.

**wuestenfux**

How about D weapons? No changes being made?

**jasper76**

You can now get cover or invul against a D weapon, unless they roll a 6 on theD Damahge Chart....I think that's a change.

A roll of 1 still doesn't do any damage.

**SisterSydney**

Sir Arun wrote:
SisterSydney wrote:
Aha! So this trick

Sir Arun wrote:
Yep. You can take 1 HQ and 2 Troops and then fill out your favorite slot (like Heavy Support) and then take another HQ, 2 more troops and continue to fill more Heavy Support slots, all in an army less than 2000 points (double FoC was only 2k and more in 6th).....

won't let you spam one particular unit. You'd have to have, say, buy a Captain, two Tac Squads, and three Predators; then a Company Command Squad, two Veteran Squads, and three Leman Russes; etc.

how so? I can buy a captain, 2 min sized scout squads, 3 vindicators, then another captain, 2 min sized scouts, and another 3 vindicators.

~~Ohhhh, because Marines with different Chapter Tactics can ally with each other, right. I get it now.~~

Edited because I am stupid. Multiple detachments =! taking allies. Finally got that straight in me 'ead.

**Sir Arun**

Taking multiple FoCs isnt allying.

Restrictions to allying "you cannot ally with yourself" only apply when taking allies.

**jasper76**

It looks like you can have as many FOCs as you like from the same Army (like 6th but no mention of a 2000 point basement)...but if you want to use the Allied Detachment FOC, you need to bring it from a different codex.

Spec Marines all fall under the same faction, so you couldn't bring an Allied Detatchment from that book if that book was used for your Primary Detatchment.

**AtoMaki**

SisterSydney wrote:
Sir Arun wrote:
SisterSydney wrote:
Aha! So this trick

Sir Arun wrote:
Yep. You can take 1 HQ and 2 Troops and then fill out your favorite slot (like Heavy Support) and then take another HQ, 2 more troops and continue to fill more Heavy Support slots, all in an army less than 2000 points (double FoC was only 2k and more in 6th).....

won't let you spam one particular unit. You'd have to have, say, buy a Captain, two Tac Squads, and three Predators; then a Company Command Squad, two Veteran Squads, and three Leman Russes; etc.

how so? I can buy a captain, 2 min sized scout squads, 3 vindicators, then another captain, 2 min sized scouts, and another 3 vindicators.

Ohhhh, because Marines with different Chapter Tactics can ally with each other, right. I get it now.

No, it is because you can have any number of Combined Arms detachment and there is no restriction on what units you can take in the extra Combined Arms detachments.

**jasper76**

AtoMaki wrote:

No, it is because you can have any number of Combined Arms detachment and there is no restriction on what units you can take in the extra Combined Arms detachments.

There is 1 Restriction....all units in a Combine Arms detachment must be from the same faction.

**Sir Arun**

jasper76 wrote:
AtoMaki wrote:

No, it is because you can have any number of Combined Arms detachment and there is no restriction on what units you can take in the extra Combined Arms detachments.

There is 1 Restriction....all units in a Combine Arms detachment must be from the same faction.

Arent Imperials a faction now?

**jasper76**

Sir Arun wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
AtoMaki wrote:

No, it is because you can have any number of Combined Arms detachment and there is no restriction on what units you can take in the extra Combined Arms detachments.

There is 1 Restriction....all units in a Combine Arms detachment must be from the same faction.

Arent Imperials a faction now?

Imperial Knights are a faction...all the "Armies of the Imperium" (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Space Marines, AM, etc) are still unique factions.

**Paradigm**

EDIT: Already answered.

**jasper76**

It seems to me that you can no longer take an Allied Detatchment from a Codex Supplement. It would have to be its own FOC, because they equated Supllements as the same Faction as the parent Codex (p 126), and you can't have an Allied Detachment from the same faction as your Primary Detachment (p 122).

**Vineheart01**

wuestenfux wrote:
How about D weapons? No changes being made?

Str D is interesting. Crazy nasty still compared to other weapons but not auto-obliterate like usual lol.

After rolling to hit, you roll a D6 for the result. Roll of a 1, nothing happens. Roll of a 2-5 the vehicle is Penn'd and suffers D3 hullpoints instead of one while in units a model suffers D3 auto wounds instead of one. A roll of 6 is NOT instant death anymore, but might as well be lol vehicles suffer D6+6 hullpoints and roll on the pen table and any models hit suffer D6+6 wounds. In this case, no saves of any kind are allowed including invul.

two interesting things here. remember Swarms taking double wounds from blasts, being FAQ'd saying it doesnt double the wound pool but every wound causes 2 wounds? This is worded the same way imo as Swarms was pre-faq, leading me to believe if you pass a cover/invul save on the 2-5 roll you pass the attack PERIOD whether it caused 3 wounds or 1, since it says "model" not unit.
While the loophole in FNP not being a save still seems to exist, the wording on the FNP rule makes it impossible to dodge these attacks as FNP says it cannot be taken against destroyer weapons. Sadface lol would be hilarious to have my nobs take a wound that would cause D6+6 and i FNP'd it

Oo, actually on the note of FNP it specifically says "can be used on attacks that state no saves of any kind are allowed" haha its no longer a loophole its intended! though not against StrD obviously or ID attacks.

**ausYenLoWang**

am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.

it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..

**Vineheart01**

Yup, read that right. Quad gun kinda got the shaft didnt it lol byebye ADL you were so beautiful while it lasted.

Means only units that can turn skyfire on/off (fliers, tau Vector Tracker upgrade, etc) can fire at everything still. Not sure what else can turn it on and off though....a lot of the anti air with skyfire i see say Skyfire not some special rule like Tau use.

**Thud**

ausYenLoWang wrote:
am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.

it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..

Looks like.

Is anything besides the gun emplacements affected though?

**ausYenLoWang**

Thud wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.

it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..

Looks like.

Is anything besides the gun emplacements affected though?

all Skyfire units, its not an option to turn on and off...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vineheart01 wrote:
Yup, read that right. Quad gun kinda got the shaft didnt it lol byebye ADL you were so beautiful while it lasted.

Means only units that can turn skyfire on/off (fliers, tau Vector Tracker upgrade, etc) can fire at everything still. Not sure what else can turn it on and off though....a lot of the anti air with skyfire i see say Skyfire not some special rule like Tau use.

also if i use an ADL these days its with a comms relay... cos well who doesnt want to get flyers in faster... might become a bastion now though....

**Vineheart01**

True that, i do it with my orks with i bring 3 dakkajets because it REALLY irritates me to have them come on 1by1 when im trying to get a good WAAAAAAGH! going lol

**ausYenLoWang**

Drakes and vendettas agree with you there

**Thud**

ausYenLoWang wrote:
Thud wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
am i reading skyfire right... it looks like it got the ass.

it no longer has the exception for where you have Skyfire AND interceptor and can shoot at ANYTHING, now skyfire is JUST the flyers etc and snap shots on anything else..

Looks like.

Is anything besides the gun emplacements affected though?

all Skyfire units, its not an option to turn on and off...

It is for Tau, and Flyers, and FMCs.

The new SM tanks never had Interceptor anyway, or IG Hydras for that matter.

I can't think of anyone, except gun emplacements, that are affected.

**Vineheart01**

iirc there were ways to add Skyfire or Interceptor throughout the game.

Oh, and the Mysterious Objective for Skyfire lets you turn it on and off. Forgot about that one, as that would SUCK to get that and be unable to turn it off lol

**Mythantor**

Challenges are alot better now.

Though any army with no psykers will be pretty shafted with DtW with their measly 1d6 deny dice.

**ausYenLoWang**

Mythantor wrote:
Challenges are alot better now.

Though any army with no psykers will be pretty shafted with DtW with their measly 1d6 deny dice.

well its 1 D6 roll and BOTH players add that many dice. so a D6 roll of 4 means both players get 4 + ML ... not too bad unless your opponent has flooded the fields with psykers

**Sir Arun**

Challenges suck even harder now.

See, in 5th ed taking an IG sergeant with a powerfist actually made sense as I invested 15 points to get a S6 AP2 weapon with 2 attacks for my squad so if they got charged by terminators, I could kill 1, maybe 2 before the squad got ripped to shreds or fled.

In 6th, the introduction of challenges massively nerfed this and made any special type of cc-weapon for the sarge useless, as he could simply be challenged and thus unable to hide in the squad. At least he could challenge a cc-monster and buy his squad some time through his sacrifice.

In 7th, now that wounds spill over, and a powerfist costs 25 points instead of 15, you'd have to be a special breed of stupid to still put one on your sarge.

**ausYenLoWang**

or you just dont challenge that daemon prince thats gonna thrash you and hope that the other models can get swings in.

IN FACT. i just realised is this a buff for CSM, i am FORCED to challenge you, you accept and i beat you horribly, i get a nice overkill and laugh,
you deny and he gets to swing on the unit anyway, and you get 1 less person to fight me...

sadly my cultists will still feel the pain lol

**Bharring**

I was really hoping they'd fix the GUO calling a seargent a coward. I kinda wish that worked like Fantasy.

So is the only change now that the GUO pastes the squad even if the Sarge steps up, but any survivors can't strike back?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with not challenging the DP is that the DP can challenge the sarge and now paste the entire squad anyways, right? Meaning either Sarge doesn't attack, and his squad fights without him, or Sarge dies before swinging, and the squad dies without being able to fight?

**Sir Arun**

Bharring wrote:
I was really hoping they'd fix the GUO calling a seargent a coward. I kinda wish that worked like Fantasy.

So is the only change now that the GUO pastes the squad even if the Sarge steps up, but any survivors can't strike back?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with not challenging the DP is that the DP can challenge the sarge and now paste the entire squad anyways, right? Meaning either Sarge doesn't attack, and his squad fights without him, or Sarge dies before swinging, and the squad dies without being able to fight?

correct.

thats why challenges suck even harder now.

characters that arent I4 or have a solid inv. save are utterly useless

**Sorris**

Locclo wrote:
There are some big changes, some little changes. Just a few off the top of my head:

1. The Psychic Phase now replaces...well, taking psychic tests. Basically, you get a pool of dice and manifest powers by rolling any number of dice you want from the pool, and if enough dice come up 4 or higher to equal or exceed the warp charge cost of the test you're taking, it goes off. Obviously there's more to it, but that's the gist.

2. Jink is no longer a flat 5+ save for moving, it now works exactly how evasion works for fliers. During the opponent's shooting phase, after a weapon has been fired but before wounds have been rolled, the unit with Jink can choose to use it or not, and if they do, they get a 4+ (yes, 4+) cover save, but they fire snap shots only in the next phase.

3. Flying Monstrous Creatures have taken a hit as well, you can no longer assault on the turn you change flight modes. Also, models need only take a single grounding test at the end of the Shooting phase, rather than every time they get shot.

4. Shooting works slightly differently now. When you select a unit to shoot, you then choose one of its weapons to shoot, then roll to hit, wound, etc. for every model with that weapon that is going to fire that weapon (since models can obviously only fire one gun per turn, mostly). Then you move onto the next weapon, until everything has fired.

5. Assaulting through terrain is different, you now roll 2d6 and subtract 2 from the distance, rather than rolling 3 and picking the two lowest.

6. Independent characters can no longer join Monstrous Creatures (so no more Buffmander + Riptide units).

7. Terrain rules have changed, in that they've removed the ridiculous terrain density thing. The book basically says to set the board up in such a way that both players are happy with it. In addition, you now deploy fortifications with your army, not when you put terrain on the board, meaning that you can actually safely put down your Defense Line without having the opposing player plop giant walls in front of it.

8. Lists can now be Battle-forged or Unbound; Battle-forged means that it comes from one army, Unbound lets you throw the FOC out the window and play whatever you want within the points limit. Also, Battle-forged lists can have any number of detachments at any points level.

9. The book has 6 new missions (Maelstrom of War) that utilize Tactical Objectives instead of the normal objectives. GW sells a deck of cards that lists them so you can just draw cards and use them as your objectives, but there's also a chart that you can roll on to generate them. They range from killing things in assault, taking specific objectives, getting into the enemy's deployment zone, all kinds of things. A full half of them are "Control X Objective," however. To make these objectives a little less insane to accomplish, since not every codex has troops that can fly across the board at a moment's notice, all models are scoring, with the exception of anything that is flying (dropping down to gliding/hovering makes them scoring again, however).

10. This is why Battle-forged and Unbound isn't as ridiculous as you might think: Troops from Battle-forged lists have the "Objective Secured" special rule, which means that nothing short of another Battle-forged Troops unit can contest the objective they're sitting on.

11. The Allies Matrix was changed a bit, the main thing to note is that alliances across the board have dropped. The majority of alliances are now either desperate or "Come the Apocalypse," with a few sprinklings of Allies of Convenience and Battle Brothers.

12. In addition to point 11, a "Come the Apocalypse" alliance no longer forbids allies, it simply makes it so that units from the two armies may not deploy within 12" of each other. Additionally, they have to deal with the "One Eye Open" rule that Desperate Allies have to deal with.

13. Not really a change (although I'm sure the rules HAVE changed a little), the main rule book now includes the rules for units that were previously Apoc/Escalation-only, like Gargantuan Creatures and Super-heavy Vehicles.

I'm sure there are plenty more, but those are the immediate ones that I can think of.

Edit: Oh, and GW has made it an official rule that you must agree with your opponent what is allowed in a list and what isn't allowed.

14. Template and Torrent weapons now burn units INSIDE open-topped vehicles.

15. Vector Strike is now AP 2.

**Vineheart01**

Note that challenges like that one arent as bad as you think.

pg103

Outside Forces:
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.

Basically meaning the big bad solo characters guarantee they can smack your pitiful sarge, but other than that the fight is normal since the unit has nothing else to swing at. Means the cheerleading is gone too, but big flippin deal lol.
Oh, and if the Sarge or other such character has any chance of surviving the attacks, but his unit doesnt, he can be a sponge for the unit. 5++ vs no save whatsoever, you might negate a couple before they spill out to the unit.

Edit: And to that template wounding inside open topped vehicles rule. The fething hell they doing? i want to run trukks and battlewagons even LESS now since even if you cant hurt the damn thing you can torch the occupants, since it says "vehicle hit" not "vehicle damaged" - even a lowly S4 Flamer that odds are wont scratch a Trukk can roast D6 boyz inside.