Ideas for the next Eldar Codices - MkII

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**Gwyidion**

What if player's just picked a craftworld. Say the rule was "Craftworld: One of the following sets of rules may be selected for an army list - this selection is made at list building, and must be disclosed to your opponent."

and the rules would look something like...

"Craftworld Iyanden: All wraithguard units are taken as troops regardless of size. Wraithlords may be taken as elites. At least one Guardian unit must be taken, and only one of each unit with type 'aspect warrior' may be taken. Units which are not fearless are stubborn, and morale tests taken due to # of wounds in a single phase are taken after 20% of a unit is lost, instead of the normal 25%."

Certain units would be exempt, such as harlequins, and perhaps rangers. It would allow customization without buying a unit, but is a bit of a regression in codex design, if i recall correctly. The trick would be balance, as always.

**rivers64**

Being too craftworld specific is a bad thing. I would not like eldar as much if that happened. Also do not play down the Phoenix Lords. It takes away from them immensly.

**DarknessEternal**

GW has dropped craftworlds, traits, mutations, and doctrines. Don't bring them back.

**Mahtamori**

The Phoenix Lords do make for a crowded HQ section without properly bringing much to the table. One problem is that they are very important characters in the fluff, another that they, due to similarity of origin, are grouped together. This leads to important face-less beings. Important to be there, but not individuals that you'll care about.

Simply put, I think Phoenix Lords need to be developed or dropped. Each should be unique, less in common with the others.

DarknessEternal wrote:GW has dropped craftworlds, traits, mutations, and doctrines. Don't bring them back.

I just wished they'd drop chapters as well. Or bring the others back.

**Solo**

I think one of the best ideas proposed is for strategic doctrines to be purchasable by the the HQ units. I think this also compliments how we purchase gear and psychic powers for our HQ units already. Also I've been looking but haven't run across it in this thread, has anyone suggested that the Eldar receive a unit like the battle psyker squad? I think it would fit in with the fluff and play of the army nicely.

**Gwyidion**

Well, if we want to provide ways to customize the list for craftworlds, i don't see a lot of options. Theres attaching the customizations to a single HQ, making them simple selections (which were phased out with mutations, doctrines, etc), or making individual HQs.

I feel like the PLs should go away, and be replaced with more flavorful HQ choices which change the FOC around a little bit, or add special rules, akin to current Space Marine rules. The Phoenix Lords can live on as an Apoc formation or something, but keeping them in the codex is a nod to history that is putting a serious cramp on the HQ slot.

The autarch should offer more tactical and strategic flexibility, depending on what is required. I feel like he should be customizable, powerful, etc.

**Pyro-Druid**

Over all I've been thinking that I'd rather anything that messes with the FoC to either be an Eldar special rule or something like "A single HQ choice may take...". Out of those two option I like the second the best, let me add points to any one of my HQs in order to balance it out, but don't force me to take one particular HQ choice.

As for the Phoenix Lords, I think they should be kept, preferably as a HQ choice, but I wouldn't mind having them as an upgrade to an Aspect Warrior unit.

**Gwyidion**

I'm split.

I think representing the diversity of the Eldar craftworlds is important - and should be represented more than with just a fluff page and a few rules in the codex (e.g. 10-man wraithguard squads are troops). As stated above, simple selection of a craftworld (akin to doctrines) has been moved away from, as a principle, by GW. Adding the rules as choices to an autarch doesn't work that well, since some craftworlds are led more by seers than anything else. There is some precedent for named characters leading craftworlds, such as eldrad, yriel, iyanna, etc, but having the generic HQs, the phoenix lords AND the craftworld HQs leads to an HQ section that has as many entries as the rest of the codex combined.

I think the best thing would be to have the generic HQs, and then have the named characters customize the FoC or add special rules (very like SM characters). The question is then, what to do with the PLs. Adding them as upgrades to exarchs or upgrades to aspect warriors might lead to a problem of representing a demi-god-like-level of aspect warrior in a "free" manner, from a FoC standpoint.

I don't have good examples of the sorts of rules i would see as the craftworld-specific benefits each SC would confer, but its more of a design schema than specifics at this point anyway.

**Eldrad**

I still say HQ wraithlord. We could up its initiative by one, have it loose wraith sight, give it a S 9 ap 2 heavy 2 lance pinning gun. Have his sword re role all misses. Give him the abilaty to join wraith gaurd squads. And we could put him up for like 220 or so points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
also give it a 4+ invaunrable save

**rivers64**

No HQ Wraithlord. Thats just OTT. What would make sence is the ability to upgrade one wraithlord to maybe a "Warithlord ancient" (undecided on names). This like the upgrade from Trygon to Trygon Prime.

**Solo**

There was talking of being able to customized the wraithlords to specific roles. This would work best if they were placed in the Elites slot in the FOC. Also a type of heavy wraithlord to occupy a slot in the heavy support section would also be cool. I still think a battle psyker squad would be beneficial to the eldar.

**Gwyidion**

No invulnerable saves on wraithlords without lowering their toughness. Lascannons already wound on 3+, you want to make them ignore half of all wounds (before fortune)!? They'd be unstoppable.

I don't want to derail to WL, since we're talking about HQ, but give WL a 2+ save and it mitigates a good deal of their durability problem (which is a vulnerability to krak missles, mostly).

What are your ideas for this 'psyker battle squad'? The closest thing I can think of would be a seer-council in which all members were actually seers and worked together to employ their psychic abilities. This would be, in the fluff, one of the most powerful psychic entities in the galaxy.

--- a little derail to WL
One thing I've thought was interesting was a Elite wraithlord and a HS wraithlord, with the elite wraithlord being sort of a front-line unit, and a HS wraithlord being more of a gun platform, slower, more dakka.

**Solo**

Well, depending on the amount of psykers you had in the squad that would allow you to use different abilities, the more psykers the more powerful the abilities. Something like living lightning that dropped templates would be cool, or some kind of psychic artillery.

**Pyro-Druid**

For the psyker battle squad idea, I think buy powers as a squad much like farseers do now, and have each power scale based on remaining models in the unit. One power a turn per squad with a spirit stone like upgrade for the squad. But if this were done, would we want a supportive role, an offensive one, or either based on chosen powers?

I'd like to see a mixed role, with powers ranging along the lines of:
Psy-Blast - 18" S:X, AP:4, large blast, X=number of squad members
Bolster - any Eldar unit within 3" per squad member my reroll leadership
Psychic Pressure - any foe within 3" per squad member may be forced to reroll any leadership test.
Twist of Fate - Until the start of the next Eldar turn, The Eldar player my any dice up to a total equal to the current number of squad members.

I don't like the idea of a WL HQ, more so I don't think for any reason any wraith unit should loose wraithsight. At best if you insist on a HQ, then have a spiritseer or two attachable. If Wraithlords are messed with dramatically, I'd want to see customizable Aspect Wraithlords. Also I agree a invun save is too much.

**dayve110**

I've toyed with writing rules for an Aspect Wraithlord... it is incredibly fiddly.
I think it may be much easier to allow the lord more options and leave it at that.
A nice array of weapons, the possibility to take one support weapon as opposed to two "heavy" weapons, more varied under-arm choices and possibly some stat buffs (such up being able to purchase a 2+ save, a 5++, etc)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 6 6 3 4 2 10 3+

A wraithlord must take one of the following...
Shuriken cannon
Scatter laser
EML
Star cannon
Brightlance
Wraithsword
Wraith gauntlets (2x S)
D-cannon support weapon
Shadow weaver support weapon
vibro cannon support weapon

A wraithlord may take one of the following, as long as it has not taken a support weapon...
Shuriken cannon
Scatter laser
EML
Star cannon
Brightlance
Wraithsword

A wraithlord must be armed with 2 under-arm weapons from the following list...
shuriken catapult
flamer
fusion gun
reaper launcher
death spinner

A wraithlord may also purchase two of the following...
Extended Wraithbone plating (2+ Save)
Reinforced Wraithbone skelenton (+2 Toughness)
Runes of fortitude (5++ save)

or something like that anyway...

----------

Regarding the PL dilema... i've personally never used them extensivly, if we were to keep them in i'd like to add in a warp spider and shining spear entry also. But i don't think we can have the PL, the generic HQ's AND craftworld heros (well, more craftworld heroes than there are now)

I think finishing off the autarch strategems should be done, then we can move onto possibly seers. Let the fate of the PL/craftworld heros mull over for a little, and someone might think of an amazing idea while drunk over xmas that will solve all our problems.

**Gorechild**

I think finishing off the autarch strategems should be done, then we can move onto possibly seers. Let the fate of the PL/craftworld heros mull over for a little, and someone might think of an amazing idea while drunk over xmas that will solve all our problems.

Agree'd, that's what I was trying to do before we went off on a tangent

(PS. I think the idea of a WL HQ is stupid, making a wraith is necromancy, the Eldar don't choose to do it unless its a "life or death of the whole craftworld" situation like it was for Iyanden). I have quite a few very different approaches we could take with the farseer/seer council, but I'll keep them to myself for now to prevent de-railing the thread again.

Here we go with the Autarch stuff:

Massed Reinforcements: - xxx points
Up to three units that are in reserve may be grouped together. you only make one reserve for the group, if it is successful all the units in the group enter from reserve in the same way (outflank, deep strike, normally) within 18" of one another.

Logistical Espionage: - xxx points
Each turn you may make your opponent re roll up to D3 reserve rolls (successful or failed), these can include rolls to determine which board edge outflanking units enter from.

Ambush!: - xxx points
D3 Units of Rangers/Pathfinders, Striking Scorpions, Warp spiders or Harlequins (with a shadowseer) gain the infiltrate rule. These units also ignore the restriction that you may not infiltrate within 12"of the enemy if they can't draw LOS to them.

Vertical Assault: - xxx points
All jet bikes and skimmers have the option to enter from reserve by deep strike.

Completely overhauled Ambush, I like the idea of sneaky units being able to luck unseen so close to the enemy.

Thoughts? Ideally I think we could do with maybe 2 more.

**dayve110**

Gorechild wrote:Massed Reinforcements: - xxx points
Up to three units that are in reserve may be grouped together. you only make one reserve for the group, if it is successful all the units in the group enter from reserve in the same way (outflank, deep strike, normally) within 18" of one another.

Think this is pretty much perfect now, wouldn't change it.

Gorechild wrote:Logistical Espionage: - xxx points
Each turn you may make your opponent re roll up to D3 reserve rolls (successful or failed), these can include rolls to determine which board edge outflanking units enter from.

Same with this one, could be interesting choices to ensure his entire reserves are held back, or make it so one unit turns up at a time and are easy pickings.

Gorechild wrote:Ambush!: - xxx points
D3 Units of Rangers/Pathfinders, Striking Scorpions, Warp spiders or Harlequins (with a shadowseer) gain the infiltrate rule. These units also ignore the restriction that you may not infiltrate within 12"of the enemy if they can't draw LOS to them.

interesting. If your going first you can get some turn 1 assaults going, something we're lacking at the moment. Although some simple deployment options could easily counter this. I can see this option being taken to outflank harlies more than anything else. It may be an option to allow the unit to gain infiltrate or scout. Although warp spiders should end up with scout anyway (IMO) so maybe this option could be extended to any unit gaining infiltrate/scout (but only the one)

Gorechild wrote:Vertical Assault: - xxx points
All jet bikes and skimmers have the option to enter from reserve by deep strike.

Simple and easy!

As for others...
Are we having +/-1 from reserves as standard? perhaps the 4+ sieze idea mentioned earlier could be good option.

**Pyro-Druid**

I think Eldrad's Divination ability should be added to the Autarch's, though probably renamed and only d3 units may be redeployed.

Ambush!: - xxx points
D3 Units of Rangers/Pathfinders, Striking Scorpions, Warp spiders or Harlequins (with a shadowseer) gain the infiltrate rule. These units also ignore the restriction that you may not infiltrate within 12"of the enemy if they can't draw LOS to them.

The <12" should only be if the unit could normally infiltrate.

And just for some extra ideas...

Pinpoint Landing: - xxx points
Any deep striking Eldar unit scatter 1d6" less.

Hidden Assault: - xxx points
For the first turn any enemy wishing to shoot at an Eldar unit must roll spotting distance as if under the effect of Night fight rules.

**Eldrad**

Since we have officaily scraped the wraith lord HQ i think we should make wraith gaurd be able to be body gaurds for Farseers. If we choose to have some craftworld heros i think that Beil-tan should get Alanthrasil Swiftblade. For those of you who don't know who he is he is an eldar pirate lord from the eldar craftworld of the Biel-tan. He ws a master of some form of fighting stile called Imeluan. Something i think could be easily turned into a special ability of some sort. Almost identical to what Auserman did about puting his brothers soul stone into his blade Alanthrasil did the same. There is another chance to put in some sort special ability.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
But Alanthrasil had a sister not a brother.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. I dont think we should lower the wraith lords ST or T it would make it to easy for power fists to kill them.

**DarknessEternal**

Wraithlords are already driven by the souls of the greatest war heros. There's no way for a Wraithlord to get upgraded stats because of a more warlike soul, they already have the most warlike.

**Solo**

A soul that's limited by it's machine body, if we upgrade the Wraith Lords to fulfill different roles then they could have different stat lines. But back to the Autarch rules, the only thing that I might add would be something that affects units more specifically, such as wraithgaurd being troop choices, or banshee's etc.

**Saintspirit**

Solo wrote:A soul that's limited by it's machine body, if we upgrade the Wraith Lords to fulfill different roles then they could have different stat lines. But back to the Autarch rules, the only thing that I might add would be something that affects units more specifically, such as wraithgaurd being troop choices, or banshee's etc.

That's more craftworld options. I think the Autarch stratagems we have now is good, if we include seize initiative on 4+. And I like the Pinpoint landing. Perhaps the Autarches should have access to some exotic gearstuff?
I mean, if we look at the Archon they have a damn huge pile of fun equipment. At least give Autarches something more interesting. Maybe, only maybe, their equipment should be unlocked by chosen craftworlds? I'm thinking
Wraith Pistol - range 6" SX AP2 Pistol
Just the same rules for wraithcannon
Only Iyanden Autarches

That is, of course, if we're adding craftworld options

**Solo**

It seems that phoenix lords should have more of an army wide consequence. Instead of having craftworld options we should put the PL's to work with some extra options. ie armies that have Maguan Ra get bonuses like tank killer and heavy weapons. Just a thought.

**dayve110**

Autarch - 60 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 6 3 3 3 6 3 10 3+

SPECIAL RULES
(Jump) Infantry/jetbike depending on equipment, Fleet of Foot, Independent Character.

WARGEAR
Assault and defensive grenades.
Haywire grenades.
Shuriken pistol.
Forceshield: The Eldar favour sleeve-mounted field projectors over the clunky and restrictive armour used by other races. A forceshield confers a 4+ invulnerable save.

OPTIONS
An Autarch may be given one of the following:
Swooping Hawk wings (20)
Warp jump generator (25)
Eldar jetbike (30)
Reaper Gyrostatic system (5) - (confers relentless)

An Autarch may also be given one of the following:
Banshee mask (3)
Mandiblasters (10)
Reaper sighting link (5) - (-1 to enemy cover saves)

An Autarch may be given one single-handed weapon and one two-handed weapon:
-Single-handed weapons
Power weapon (10)
Scorpion chainsword (5)
Laser lance (only on jetbike) (15)
Distort pistol (10) - (12" S:X AP:2 pistol)
Vibro blade (10) - (counts as a rending CCW, can be used as a ranged weapon, R:12" S:4 AP:- Assault D3, pinning)
-Two-handed weapons
Avenger shuriken catapult (2)
Death spinner (5)
Fusion gun (10)
Lasblaster (1)
Reaper launcher (20)
Prism rifle (25) - (May fire focused or dispersed. Focused = Range:30" S:7 AP:2 Rapid fire. Dispersed = Range:30" S:3 AP:4 Rapid fire, blast)
Flamer (5)
Ranger long rifle (5)

Master Strategist: An Autarch may take upto two stratergies from the following list, however the second strategem will cost double the price indicated. (each strategem may only be purchased once per force)
Massed Reinforcements: - 15 points
(Up to three units that are in reserve may be grouped together. you only make one reserve for the group, if it is successful all the units in the group enter from reserve in the same way (outflank, deep strike, normally) within 18" of one another.)
Logistical Espionage: - 25 points
(Each turn you may make your opponent re roll up to D3 reserve rolls (successful or failed), these can include rolls to determine which board edge outflanking units enter from.)
Vertical Assault: - 25 points
(All jet bikes and skimmers have the option to enter from reserve by deep strike.)
Pinpoint Landing: - 20 points
(Any deep striking Eldar unit scatter 1d6" less.)
Hidden Assault: - 30 points
(For the first turn any enemy wishing to shoot at an Eldar unit must roll spotting distance as if under the effect of Night fight rules.)
Perfect Timing: - 10 points
(The Autrach may +/- 1 to any, or all reserve rolls)
Ambush!: - 25 points
(One unit may be given a USR, either Scout, Hit and Run or Infiltrate. In addition, The Eldar player will sieze the initiative on a 4+)
Deception: - 30 points
(The Eldar player may re-deply D3 units after all deployment has finished (this can include putting units into/out of reserves)

Ok... How does that look?
I dropped the basic cost a little as he no longer comes with master strategist, you have to buy it.
Addionally i threw in some weapons based on existing technology within the Eldar codex.
After that i collected up the idea for strategems from the last few posts (i changed Ambush, the ability to infiltrate closer than 12" seems a little wierd, and as someone posted, should only work on units who have infiltrate to start with, so more or less, thats the scorpions. So we may as well make that an Exarch power for them!)
For the strategems i added the possibility of buying 2 (2nd at double price) as there are a few nice combinations in there... if you find a combo thats too OTT please point it out.

Feel free to comment about the abilities and costs of everything. I have no idea how expensive these things should be! Especially the new weapons!

**rivers64**

I like it!

**Gorechild**

I really like the war gear options, they would be ultra customizable. I think 8 Stratagems might be too many though considering there are only 5 farseer powers. My views:

Hidden assault I'd say is my least favourite of the lot, and maybe pinpoint landing could be added to vertical assault? that would bring us down to a more manageable number. I think the 4+ seize the initiative should be part of perfect timing (just seems to fit better IMO).
I don't like the thought of ambush being available to all units, I was thinking it would be good of allowing the sneaky units to get right up close for T1 assaults, but ymmv.

I'd like something like...
Ambush!: - 30 points
One unit of Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, Rangers, Pathfinders or Harlequins (if joined by a shadowseer) gets the Infiltrate and Scout USR.As long as no enemy model can draw LOS to the infiltrating unit, it may deploy anywhere on the board as long as they remain >1" away from an enemy model.

**dayve110**

Massed Reinforcements: - 15 points
(Up to three units that are in reserve may be grouped together. you only make one reserve for the group, if it is successful all the units in the group enter from reserve in the same way (outflank, deep strike, normally) within 18" of one another.)
Logistical Espionage: - 25 points
(Each turn you may make your opponent re roll up to D3 reserve rolls (successful or failed), these can include rolls to determine which board edge outflanking units enter from.)
Vertical Assault: - 25 points
(All jet bikes and skimmers have the option to enter from reserve by deep strike. In Addition Any deep striking Eldar unit scatter 1d6" less.)
Perfect Timing: - 10 points
(The Autrach may +/- 1 to any, or all reserve rolls. Inaddition The Eldar player will sieze the initiative on a 4+)
Ambush!: - 25 points
(One unit of Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, Rangers, Pathfinders or Harlequins (if joined by a shadowseer) gets the Infiltrate and Scout USR. As long as no enemy model can draw LOS to the infiltrating unit, it may deploy anywhere on the board as long as they remain >1" away from an enemy model.)
Deception: - 30 points
(The Eldar player may re-deply D3 units after all deployment has finished (this can include putting units into/out of reserves)

Made the changes suggested... Although the only time i could ever possibly see rangers/pathfinder infiltrating that close would be to take out ratling snipers or a minimum size grot unit (can't see them surving long that close to anything else) I wouldn't mind seeing the option opened up for other units, its possible that there may be small webway portals located in the vicinity, allowing a small unit the ability to sneak up on the enemy.

**Pyro-Druid**

The only things I can pick on is that the Prism rifle should be assault 1 or heavy 1, not rapid fire (I'm off the belief that Eldar shouldn't have rapid fire weapons), and that the wording of the extra stratagem should be:

Master Strategist: An Autarch may take upto two stratergies from the following list, however the more expensive of the two strategem will cost double the price indicated. (each strategem may only be purchased once per force)

This is simply because I can already see people trying to take a 30pts stratagem then a 10pts stratagem "second".

**rivers64**

Pyro-Druid wrote:The only things I can pick on is that the Prism rifle should be assault 1 or heavy 1, not rapid fire (I'm off the belief that Eldar shouldn't have rapid fire weapons), and that the wording of the extra stratagem should be:

Master Strategist: An Autarch may take upto two stratergies from the following list, however the more expensive of the two strategem will cost double the price indicated. (each strategem may only be purchased once per force)

This is simply because I can already see people trying to take a 30pts stratagem then a 10pts stratagem "second".

Whats wrong with that. IMO thats fine and automatically doubling the most expensive ones is unfair.

**Pyro-Druid**

I just feel it went against the intent of it, stuff like "Perfect timing" + "Vertical Assault" seems closer to the 60pt make then 45, though I could just be over pricing things. If others disagree I'm more than happy to play less for a second ability.

Back track/clarify slightly, how is this working if we were to take 2 Autarchs? Do we allow the possibility of 4 strategems to be taken, or do we limit it to either "One Autarch per army may take..." or "No more then 2 strategems per army."? If we do the 2/army, then is the points doubled only if the same Autarch takes the strategem twice?

I assume that they would be like the existing ability in that once the Autarch is dead you can't use it?