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20% SM
10% Non SM astartes (13% if you include soup) SW being most common variety) and 0 DA
10% SoB (13% if you include soup)
10% harlequins
10% AM (but all soup)

As to custodes 3% (7% if you include soup)
0% IK (3% if you include soup)
0% chaos knights
I should say the event is no FW allowed which may have impacted custodes. Also being a team event factions couldn't be duplicated on a team so 33% is the maximum a faction could be fielded

xerxeskingofking wrote:
hello again, hive mind of the internet!

I have another FNG question: how likely/realistic is it that my warlord (tech priest dominus, in this case) is going to get into melee? I've be playing around with listbuilding and finally got enough to a grip on what i feel are the basics to start looking at stuff like dogmas and relics.

Now, looking at what i have and what those guys can take, i'm really weighting up the choice of either one of the axe relics or the super-phosphor serpenta. now, I assume that the Admech are mostly a gunnery army and they dont like getting into melee (electro-priests notwithstanding), so i'm leaning towards the serpenta, but at the same time that serpenta is the Dominus' secondary gun, and i'm toying with the axes relics on the off chance that he does get into combat. which would you recommend, or am i completely off base with my thinking?

Against fast decks like Eldar or White Scars, it is almost a certainty that your army will be in melee at some point.

Relics are mostly trash. Some people take the Autocaduceus, but I have never seen it make a significant difference. I usually take Raiment instead for the 6+ FNP and Overwatch bonuses (Magos + Raiment means 6s produce +2 hits on Overwatch, which is nuts with Ballistarii). In some matchups, Pater Cog-Tooth or the Pseudogenetor are worthwhile. Red Axe is pretty much worthless. All of the ranged weapons are pretty bad too.

Oh wow, I never considered the Cognis Overwatch. You're right, that's actually the best pick if you've got Ironstriders (which should be pretty much everyone now). Yeah, I guess my top picks are Raiment and Mask, with Solar Flare being an off-meta pick.

Raiment only gives you an extra 'Attack' not an extra hit. It's just another roll of the dice, but it does improve with cognis overwatch as any 6s you get are much more likely for that extra attack to generate more hits with 3+ BS.

With Cognis Overwatch, Raiment is essentially +11% chance to hit (78%, statistically the same as re-roll 1s). With Cawl re-rolls, the Raiment is +15% for a total 1.04 hits per shot fired. With Magos and Cawl, their average accuracy becomes 1.13 hits per shot fired. With +1 hit Doctrina, Cawl (or re-roll 1s), and Magos, they generate 1.36 hits per shot fired.

So on average, 5 Autocannon Ironstriders can spend 3CP to generate 27 hits with 20 shots in Overwatch (or 2CP for 22.6) shots. That's more damage than their normal shooting phase, which is quite a charge deterrent.

I expect Overwatch shooting to get better with a new codex. Cognis Overwatch will probably trigger Overwatch, too, and factions like Aggripina will probably get Overwatch innately since their Dogma is currently useless.

Didn't they clarify that whatever bonus happens in the shooting phase didn't apply to Overwatch ? I'm a bit rusty on rules I admit.

 Aaranis wrote:
Didn't they clarify that whatever bonus happens in the shooting phase didn't apply to Overwatch ? I'm a bit rusty on rules I admit.

quoting the app FAQ:
"
Q: when using the Cognis Overwatch strategem, do i apply any relevant modifiers to the firing models Ballistic Skill?

A: Yes, as long as the weapon is a Cognis weapon. note that modifiers to hit rolls do not apply "


both a regular Dominus and Crawl's re-roll is specifically in the shooting phase, so that's out.

And the Canticle also specifies shooting phase too. Okay, then with Magos the Raiment is worth 14% chance to hit, bringing them to 97%. If you use Doctrina, Magos, and Raiment, then they still generate 1.17 hits per shot.

The key takeaway is that if you need a generic option for your Mars Enginseer or whatever, it would be Raiment. The Autocaduceus makes almost no impact on the game.

@suzuteo

I’m going to try and use your list in a game tomorrow (the Cawlstar one). Depending on opponent do you think engage on all fronts is a good pick or a bit risky without flier

I must say that’s one thing I haven’t quite mastered this edition

Picking the correct secondaries. Some armies have it easier than others. And I find Custodes and marines can be quite solid for not giving up secondaries

We hand them out like candy.


Edit. Can kastellan robots hide behind an obscuring terrain piece and then touch the wall when ready to open up a can of whoop ass yeah? Is that the correct interpretation of a ruin with obscuring? I haven’t got to grips with terrain but I know from using TTS that some pieces don’t allow vehicles to end or start movement on a piece

I know it’s good for the game probably but I miss the simpler times when I didn’t need to spend time taking about terrain

 Ideasweasel wrote:
I must say that’s one thing I haven’t quite mastered this edition: picking the correct secondaries. Some armies have it easier than others. And I find Custodes and marines can be quite solid for not giving up secondaries. We hand them out like candy.

I preemptively parse down the secondaries to ones the army could realistically score. I keep a literal shortlist of secondaries to consider in order of importance. There's a lot of obvious ones to cull, all the psychic ones, While We Stand, Domination. Then there are ones that I keep at the bottom of the list, only a consideration in very niche circumstances: Grind Them Down, Cut Off the Head, Assassinate, Titan Hunter, Abhor the Witch. These are very unlikely to score more than 10 points.

That cuts my choices in half, which means I can focus. The kill secondaries a pretty easy to decide: can you score 15 points, and is it likely to score more than 10? If so, you take them. Then that leaves the mission secondary, two Battlefield Supremacies, and the Shadow Operations to consider. I usually start by considering the mission secondary and my opponent's army. Which secondaries can I bundle with this? Which units specifically am I going to dedicate to the job? Will my opponent's expected plan naturally contest me, or will he have to divert resources?

For example, on missions with a wide deployment zone, I can use Flanking Maneuver on a Warglaive and Circuitous Assassins on my Ruststalkers to get into their zone and score Linebreaker and Teleport Homer. This is even better if there's also a primary objective to capture nearby, like in Surround and Destroy or Scorched Earth. This can really mess with an army that focused on taking the center of the board and now has to backtrack to stop me scoring 30 points. The more activities I can bundle together, the easier it is to score points. I can justify committing more of my forces there and consequently improve their odds of success.

If the opponent just doesn't have kill secondaries, then you have to build a list that can proactively achieve secondaries. Shadow Operations in particular are really good, and I think undervalued because the strongest armies in the game right now are bad at scoring them. I'd also recommend looking through the mission secondaries and preemptively consider which ones you could score (I've even written down a couple in my shortlist).

For example, the Mars+Ryza list I posted earlier is designed to score While We Stand and Grind Them Down against most armies. It's also got Soar Away Pteraxii and some reserved Skitarii to help score Battlefield Supremacy objectives. It doesn't matter what the opponent brings, it should always score 35+ on secondaries.

Ideasweasel wrote:Can kastellan robots hide behind an obscuring terrain piece and then touch the wall when ready to open up a can of whoop ass yeah? Is that the correct interpretation of a ruin with obscuring? I haven’t got to grips with terrain but I know from using TTS that some pieces don’t allow vehicles to end or start movement on a piece

Yes, that is correct, but you still have to consider LoS.

The original reading of obscuring, yes it basically was "the terrain doesnt even exist" because GW is bad at writing complex rules like that.
They faq'd it to mention you still need to actually SEE them, so in essence True Line Of Sight is a factor (not literally but its far easier to explain that way than how theyve been trying)

Ah thanks guys. The terrain rules are taking some getting used to but I’m sure I’ll get there.

Yeah I’ll go have a read of missions again and see if I can get a shortlist down

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@suzuteo

I’m going to try and use your list in a game tomorrow (the Cawlstar one). Depending on opponent do you think engage on all fronts is a good pick or a bit risky without flier

I must say that’s one thing I haven’t quite mastered this edition

Picking the correct secondaries. Some armies have it easier than others. And I find Custodes and marines can be quite solid for not giving up secondaries

We hand them out like candy.

Edit. Can kastellan robots hide behind an obscuring terrain piece and then touch the wall when ready to open up a can of whoop ass yeah? Is that the correct interpretation of a ruin with obscuring? I haven’t got to grips with terrain but I know from using TTS that some pieces don’t allow vehicles to end or start movement on a piece

I know it’s good for the game probably but I miss the simpler times when I didn’t need to spend time taking about terrain

Don't pick Engage On All Fronts without the flyer. The flyer pretty much scores one VP per turn on its own, and it offers a ton of utility. Even as a Distraction Carnifex, it's nightmarishly hard to kill with -1 to hit and -1 damage. A lot of AA weapons are D2 or DD3. And if they want to shoot melta weapons or lascannons at it, fine. Means less incoming fire at the Boats and firebase.

For secondaries, I tend to do Deploy Scramblers, Engage On All Fronts, and a killy objective. If they are a Psyker heavy army, I drop either Deploy or Engage for Abhor the Witch, which is the upside of having no Psykers.

Yes, if your Robots can enter the ruins, they can shoot with normal LOS through them; they can shoot you too, but that won't be a problem if everything is dead.

If everything is dead then all the objectives are easy

I’ll let you know how your list performs, but now you have me wondering if maybe including the flier might be worth it.

Deploy scramblers? What are you scoring scramblers with? The list is light on troops but I think it could work. Many threats little time

i assumed Engaged on All Fronts was denied by flyers but i was shocked when i noticed it didnt say anything about it.
Ive scored it so many times when i really shouldnt have because of that lol.

Does anyone have any good Battle Reports that are running heavy Kataphron lists? I've seen a lot of mixed lists that optimize flyers, Corpuscarii, Iron Striders, etc, but I've only seen a small amount of Kataphrons mixed in. Though I remember early theory crafting saw spam lists with them.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
If everything is dead then all the objectives are easy

I’ll let you know how your list performs, but now you have me wondering if maybe including the flier might be worth it.

Deploy scramblers? What are you scoring scramblers with? The list is light on troops but I think it could work. Many threats little time

The thing about Deploy Scramblers is that you can do over time. Destroyers often can do it on turn one if there's nothing to shoot. Either of the Electro-Priests can do it while parked on objectives, especially Fulgurites with Acquisition on. Then you just need to sneak one infantry unit into the enemy's deployment.

Another alternative is Investigate Sites, assuming you have LOS to the center of the map. (Pretty much dare the opponent to walk into firing range.)

It is true that it was a lot easier to do in my old list though, since I usually had 4x5 Vanguard coming along.

EDIT: Another thing that was suggested to me was to drop the Bomber and Raiders for 3x5 Plasma Vanguard. For 1 CP, you can outflank all three of them onto the board. Alternatively, you can outflank one unit with the 10x Corpuscarii and load the other two into the Boat to go with the Fulgurites (gets you ObSec). I am not 100% sure on this, though I guess it makes secondaries a bit safer?

I think you’d likely guarantee deploy scramblers but is it worth losing the dogs over

I’m not so sure that’s worth it. The utility of the dogs is probably better and you can always have an empty boat and deep strike the jazz priests if you wanted to outflank something anyway

I think the Raiders ride robohorses.

More I think about it, the more I think it is worth it. This list is not shy about getting into combat. And Ballistarii Overwatch usually discourages charges. (Pretty easy for S8 AP1 D2 Autocannons to kill a Smash Captain, actually.)

The Raiders also actually consume quite a bit of CP to do their job, and because they are not infantry, they reduce my options. I would rather use that 2 CP on my Fulgurites.

Plus, 6x Plasma Calivers can actually do quite a bit of damage. (In late 8E, Daedalosus + Plasma Calivers was pretty much a staple.)

I just can’t make a list without robo horses haha. Every game they have been such a useful piece of the puzzle. But Admech survived without then before and can no doubt do the same after

I have not been as impressed. They are useful for screening and avoiding melee, but when it comes down to a midboard scrum, they can feel rather useless. They also cannot perform the Shadow Op secondaries.

Perhaps.

Cool models though. I still wish they were T4.

Yeah, virtually everyone else gets +1T when they get a mount. But then again, we are the army with hover tanks that do not Fly...

 Suzuteo wrote:
Yeah, virtually everyone else gets +1T when they get a mount. But then again, we are the army with hover tanks that do not Fly...

I'd be happy with T3 if they weren't cavalry/biker. Those keywords are purely negative, no benefits at all.

Raiders allowed me to score full points from domination for the first 2 turns without even really trying. But they don't have much staying power beyond that, you need to get something on to those objectives other than them to do anything longer. Essentially by the end of T2 I was running out of firepower to keep things off the objectives and my Tau opponent still had his Riptide, quad fusion commander, 3x stealth suits with burst cannons and a bunch of breachers which were actually pretty darn effective.

Mounts dont tend to get +1t bikes do

I've been trying to use sulfurhounds and so has my rommate and we noticed that since theyre T3 with 3W and tend to be up front they literally never do anything as all the short range big hitting guns point at them first because its either them or a 1W model at this point.

That alone is making me consider ripping the arms/heads off my sulfurhounds and making them into raiders, since i havnt painted them yet. I dont get why they dont both have that pre-deployment movement.

Suzuteo, I played one of your lists with dakkabots

Got a bit tricky with good firing lines versus an iron hands opponent - still not sure about them for my own play style. I love non LOS artillery so might go back to the belaros tanks and try the extra AP divination.

I did a fun trick though with a boat filled with fulgrites. Turn 1 I sped it into a leviathan dread with double machine guns. It managed to survive and tie up his dread. On his turn My opponent pops it open thinking he’s going to shred my guys inside.

I used the 6” disembark and emergency don’t die strat to then move them into an adjacent building blocking LOS. Then the next turn I moved them out and deleted 2 of his characters on the objective and tied up the dread again.

Was pretty funny - the game came down to a loss unfortunately as I misplayed a few things and didn’t have enough firepower to remove 7+ T7/8 dreads

Good fun moment though

@Octovol
Problem is when you run into Marines or DG. Scout deployment > Scout movement. That and they seem to get wiped for no gain if I am going second. In fact, every point that is not able to kill Power Armour adds to the difficulty of winning if you go second.

@Vineheart01
I just mentioned that in my response to Octovol. Not sure if Raiders will change much. The Robodogs are much more flavorful IMO, but both seem meh to me in comparison to Boat Priests.

@U02dah4
Don't all of the Thunderwolf mounts get +1T?

@Ideasweasel
It's true that when you play with Dakkabots, you need to be very cognizant of sight lines. But the problem with the Grators is that they cost 150 points and no longer punch hard enough to justify their cost.

Emergency Disembark + Evac Sequence is great.

7+ Dreads? Is that still a thing with 9E secondaries? Anyhow, vehicle slug matches are not what my list was designed for. But you should be able to outplay him for objectives if you clear his infantry early on.

Yeah he’s been doing fine. Shoots out a few hundred S5-7 shots and just hoses everything. He’s got a couple of mortis dreads in there with las and he has not
lost many games


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I beat him with with a raven castellan and a ton of warglaives.

Blew up 3 of his dreads T1 and called it