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So I was playing a game today, and the opposing players friend came over and accused me of having a cheesy list. He stated that it was a tournament level list, and basically accused me of being a WAAC player. I pointed out that I developed this list without the intention of playing in tournaments, simply because as a model I adore the vindicator and mechanized lists in general (hence my username). I also pointed out that this list is not optimised, due to the upgrades I have taken on my sergeants. This same guy told me my grey knight Draigowing was overpowered, so I suspect he may just be a whiner, but I do value that area as a gaming club and therefore dont want to be seen as that guy who plays tournament lists in friendly games, so I ask of you dakka, who was right, me or him?

HQ

Librarian
Shield of sanguinius
Blood lance
100 pts

Troops

Assault Squad
Meltagun
Infernus Pistol
Thunder Hammer

Razorback
Extra Armour

190 points

Assault Squad
Meltagun
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield

Razorback
Lascannon/Twin linked Plasma Gun
Extra Armour

230 points

Heavy Support

Vindicator
Extra Armour

160 points

Vindicator
Extra Armour

160 points

Vindicator
Extra Armour

160 points

Triple vindicators can be rough against the right opponent. However, against many more opponents they are a liability. In 1,000 point games... I don't know... I've been places that nobody would look twice at that and I've been places that they'd ask you kindly to leave without getting a game. Heck, I've been called cheese for taking only two vindicators in a 1500 point game and they weren't even the "fast" red ones.

Really, if you are looking for thought on what is accepted as casual in your gaming circle... you aren't going to find that on the internet. You are going to need to ask some more players in your area.

To answer your question, I have Space Marines, Orks, and Eldar armies and would not have a problem playing against that army with any of them. I might not be able to win all the matchups, as vindis are tougher to deal with in some matchups, but I wouldn't feel cheesed out.

Curious... what army does that guy play? Is it something that vindicators are really scary against?

-Myst

Thanks for your reply Myst. I think you are probably right, that i would be better canvassing my local area for opinions, so i may well do just that.

In response to your asking what this guy runs, in our first game it was my grey knights (1500 point draigowing) versus his foot marines, and this latest incident was him playing eldar, and me playing blood ravens (blood angels codex)

the units he had in his list were 2 wraithlords, farseer, guardians, howling banshees, dark reapers. in hindsight he wasn't FOC legal, but that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the accusations his friend was making. his lists were kind of intimidated by the vindicators, but as you said sometimes they can be a liability. i have had more than a few occasions where a vindicator scatters onto a friendly unit. i feel that his friend is just prone to whining in any game he, or his friends lose, either due to their combined lack of tactics (other than advancing) or the inefficiency of their lists. Further to this, my list was just a derivative of my 1500 point list, by which i mean i took my 1500 point list and subtracted 500 points. if i was list tailoring i could understand the frustrations, but it was just one of a few lists i carry with me (the other being DOA)

perhaps its time I re-wrote my lists :S

Mech, assuming you are not being TFG and/or an insufferable player in general, I don't see why you should have to change your list simply because a 3rd party observer complains.. How does he have the right to complain? I could understand if the actual opponent complained but it seems like he is not. All in all I don't see a problem with your list or Draigowing (yes I think GK is cheesy but it isn't invincible). Stopping now before I really start ranting incoherently and foaming at the mouth.

Three Vindicators is a delicious challenge to a savvy player. It's just like any other 'good unit' spam, like deathwing, razorspam, long fang misslespam, or whatever.

Deployed well, it's a tough nut to crack, but against the opponent who can outrange you with Anti-tank it's just another test of their list.

Your list, like most, has strengths, weaknesses, and a good killer application. You like big markers, cool, I like 'em too. I'd rather not play people who are going to bitch all the time anyway, I can't imagine you would.

what would you say to 3 vindicators with outflank (using khan from C:SM)? I would imagine it would be a lot harder to out of range then. I would test it my self but fail to have models to even proxy vindicators.

Honestly I wouldnt say it is a cheese list and would love to play against it. But I may not be a great example as to me some of the best games are when im playing against some one with a list either as brutal or more so than my own lol.

Its not cheesy but is a pretty hard list for 1000pts, perhaps you could tone it down a bit for friendly games.

Hmm a 1000 point list that has 5 *Fast* shooty vehicles always have a 5+ cover save that can essentially steamroll down the middle of the table dropping 3, Str 10, AP 2 pie plates a turn?
Hmmm let me think..

Yes, this list is cheesy, especially against Marines (aka 80% of players).

Am i going to say it's cheesy to your face? No, but I'm definitively going to bad comp it in a tourney.

I'm sorry to sound harsh, but if you actually had to ask on a forums if this list is Cheesy, then it's very obvious your list is carrying you.

Also, the fact you mentioned that you also have a Draigowing list (considered almost unbeatable at this point in time when played right) and accuse someone as a whiner just makes me feel like you're trying to troll DakkaDakka

First off, definitely not a troll. I play daemons as well as my other armies, and I'd assume you wouldn't accuse them of being "overpowered" or "cheesy". Draigowing is far from unbeatable, 2/3rds of games being objectives games, which when considering the points cost of a paladin squad with decent wargear means I have to go for the kill to win.

However, having noticed another player in my area using a virtually the same list, but with CSM I have decided its probably for the best to tone it down for friendly games. From now on I think I'm just going to play more competitive people, as the general concensus seems to be that competitive players wouldn't mind the spearhead list.

Thanks all for your input!

I'm very surprised by the degree of hostility being directed toward this guy for his list...

40k is a game. I don't think that we're doing ourselves any favor as a community by shunning certain builds based on whether or not they're easily beaten.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:I'm very surprised by the degree of hostility being directed toward this guy for his list...

40k is a game. I don't think that we're doing ourselves any favor as a community by shunning certain builds based on whether or not they're easily beaten.

That's a very broad statement. Not untrue, but not relevant to the specific situation of the OP either.


I myself set the line as follows :

one of a given unit is for moderation ; can be a fun choice as well as a strong one depending on the unit, but that's it.

two of the same is for redundancy, which is a sound strategic option. Can make a list more solid while still balanced.

three is spam, and here I draw the line for "potentially cheesy" depending on the unit. Usually associated with "hard" competitive lists.

Double the digit for Troops.

Playing a solid army is A-ok in my book, but I see where the OP's opponent's friend comes from. Three good units such as Vindicators in a 1000 points list (come one, that's almost half the points !) is a bit tough if he thought the game was to be more relaxed (I don't like "friendly" here, you can have friendly competitive games). My stance is that there shouldn't be a problem if everyone knows where they're going, so he might have been alright with it if he had seen your list in advance.

The way you say it though (especially if he did say "overpowered"), he does sound a bit like a whiner. Would be interesting to have your opponent's list to appreciate the actual match-up.

I would be fine playing against that list even though I'm SM myself. Even though I only play at my FLGS, my overall goal is to improve. I'd rather be stomped than do the stomping. Whether or not it's a tournament spam list is another question, and frankly I don't think it matters. If your opponent doesn't have a problem with it, then he doesn't. If he does, he does. That's too subjective really. I mean, look at the different kinds of responses posted here. If I were you, I would have enough units to field different kinds of lists so that if you go up against someone you know isn't fielding an optimized army you can use a different unoptimized list for a more fair and fun game.

3 Vindicators to me means he has 3 shots per round instead of the potential for 9-12 shots he could have gotten with other HS options.... throw in the 24" Range.. I do not fear this list and think it would be fun to play against.... Taking vindicators because they are cheap is fine... Like I said it is more of a hinderance than a bonus against me....

I play Tau and DE though so I will Railgun them to death or simple move and shoot.... As an SM player.... I would DP right next to them and melta spam them....

I dont see the Vindicator as cheese. Its point cost may be a little too cheap but the range etc make up for it.... perhaps 135 pts instead of 115 would bring it more in line with reality, but even then you could still easily field 3 in any 1k list.

Milisim wrote:3 Vindicators to me means he has 3 shots per round instead of the potential for 9-12 shots he could have gotten with other HS options.... throw in the 24" Range.. I do not fear this list and think it would be fun to play against.... Taking vindicators because they are cheap is fine... Like I said it is more of a hinderance than a bonus against me....

I play Tau and DE though so I will Railgun them to death or simple move and shoot.... As an SM player.... I would DP right next to them and melta spam them....

I dont see the Vindicator as cheese. Its point cost may be a little too cheap but the range etc make up for it.... perhaps 135 pts instead of 115 would bring it more in line with reality, but even then you could still easily field 3 in any 1k list.

QFT

It's a game, sounds like a fun list that would be a challange but not impossible. A good player with a good list could go 50/50 with this. Simple soultion is a BA DoA, drop behind them and melta them to death. 2 units with 2 meltas each and a Vanguard vet unit with a PF/melta bombs would make quick work of them, and I run both of those at 1000 points...

The 3 vindicators, FAST vindicators at that, are tough at any points value to deal with for the opponent.

That's the only reason your list got flak. It doesn't help you're running razorbacks and minimum troops, which is part of the standard metagame.

Any list without good long range anti-tank, and at least 4 shots, is going to hurt against your list.

Tau, guard and DE will be reasonably fine against the list. Anyone else, screwed.

Well, i'm not really sure why you would come and ask a forum if your list is too cheesy for casual play. If all the guys at the flgs are dead set that your list is too cheesy for casual play, then they aren't really going to change their minds if you come back and say "Look! These guys on the internet don't think my list is cheesy! You guys should let me use it!" I agree that the guy sounds kinda whiney, and it'd be better if he said something more along the lines of "Hey, this list is just a super hard match-up for me and my friend's list. I don't have to much fun when i play against it, and it just seems to hard for matches against my fun lists. Could you bring something a little more toned-down next time?" But if everyone seems to think that your list is to mean to play against, then if you feel like still playing relaxed games at the store, you should just pat yourself on the back for making a list that everyone at your gaming place fears, and bring a list with a cool, non-competitive build that you've been wanting to try out.

As a marine player, I would enjoy playing against three fast vindicators. Seriously, he only has like 7 shots a turn in that entire list.

No it isn't. It's a smart list, sure, but all the points wasted on Extra Armor and weird equipment keeps it from being cheesy. Frankly, your opponent sounds like he doesn't think much about his lists.

Cheese is in the eye of the opponent...

I was told I was cheesy for even PLAYING Codex: Witch Hunters back when it was legal... because "Sisters of Battle are OP"... according to some random dude that didn't play anymore...

Really?

Lol.

Anywho... as far as your list goes... with that much reliance on Mech, I gotta say: your games may be won and lost in deployment... at 1000pts, that list could be gross, or it could be over verrrrrry quick for ya.

Good luck

Its a good list but it could do with more vesitility.

kind of low on troops. in objective based games the army will suffer. your also kind of betting the farm on getting within that 24" death zone for the vindi's, becuase all you have otherwise is a pair of razorbacks. at 1000 pts there *should* be at least 3 other anti tank weapons on field, and they will all direct at those vinidi's before they get a chance to shoot back. only my 2 bits, but i would change one out for more scoring units, or something with range.

is it cheesy....i dont believe so.

I wouldn't say this list is cheese. Sure it would be hard for some armies that don't have high strength hitters, but to other armies this would be easy especially in an objective game. Maybe I only like this list because Ive been considering creating a CSM list with three vindicators and paint a beautiful picture across all three of the dozer blades.

In my opinion you should obviously find players at your club who would love the challenge of this list. Maybe next time just warn your opponent before the game that you have 3 vindicators.

It's an excellent list for noobslaying, and hence the uneducated masses will call it 'cheese'. It certainly looks scary on paper: and termie players especially will cry foul.

Against anyone with a decent grasp of tactics, the list is subpar. Running three vindicators at 1k is an example of a lack of balance in the list: honestly, I'd be much more afraid if you eschewed the third vindicator for something else, such as a Sanguinary Priest, or better yet, some more troops.

The only reason I could see for people to call your list 'cheesy' is a lack of variety; I think for casual play, using a bunch of different units is better as it's more fun for you and your opponent.

FIrst things first, Haters gonna hate. Dont expect anything different.

Personally, if someone played me with that kind of army, i wouldn't be bothered. I'd see it more of a challange. It will be a hell of a rough ride, but i'd relish in the challange. And if i lost, hell, its just a game!

If i was you, i'd pull the guy aside and be like. "If you got a problem, take a hike. Im here to have fun, not to be bitched at by douches like you". And he'll be like, "Sorry dude, wanna play me?"
(YMMV upto and including a punch... )

In my experience, no matter where you go people will accuse you of being cheap. There's hate everywhere, and you just gotta roll with it. If you choose some ridiculous list, people will rip on you... and then if you win with it they'll rip on you too. Play what you enjoy, its your hobby as much as it is theirs.

The list is not cheesy at all. You waste lots of points on extra armour, thunder hammers, storm shields etc. Get rid of all that and you can have another razorsquad or a baal predator which would make your list much better.

Example:

Libby, sword, wings (or more conservative powers like shield/lance)
5 Assault Marines, melta
- Razorback, tl-hf
5 Assault Marines, melta
- Razorback, las/plas (or assault cannon)
5 Assault Marines, melta
- Razorback, las/plas
Vindicator, dozer
Vindicator
Vindicator


Don't let haters get you down. Try to find like-minded individuals instead. Go to tourneys, make friends, play with decent people instead of morons.

Its a really good 1000p list. That's not cheesy- its not unbeatable etc. Your whiner needs to step up to the challenge

Is his friend accusing you of Cheese playing? No? Then tell him "talk to the hand noob, cause your not even playing." The only reason to dumb down a list would be if in league play they had rules that limited powers of each army, such as troops must be the most slots, points allowances for other slots etc.

If people dont want to make fluffy rules for league play then they have nothing to complain about. Some of the most fun campaign games were back in the day with escalation leagues starting at 500 pts and going up 1850 to try and get people tournament build armies and learn how the army plays as its being built.

I field 3 ravagers at 1000 pts....is that cheesy? And it's a pretty hard counter for vindi lists.

People generally cry cheese when they can't figure out how to beat something with the same ol cookie cutter list they found online and think is "WTFPWNUAWSOME!"

News flash, it ain't, and it's not cheesy if you can't beat someone else's army.

And if that guy ain't even playing why is he commenting on your list? Turn the tables. Wait for his game... Whatever it is, and whenever he does anything cry cheese and tell him to show his list,codex, brb etc. also constantly offer advice to his opponent. When he crus foul, " oh I thought It was cool to interfere in some else's game.. You mean it's not?"