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Gorthor is indeed in the book.

Whilst you can't get Minotaur Core anymore (which is possibly just as well, seeing as they are rock hard!) you can exploit the cheapo Ungor Raiders to supply your Core (they can make 2,000 point compulsory Core a mere 90 points) then spend lots of points on Minotaurs. Downside here is of course the 4 unit limitation thanks to them remaining special, but it's something. And when you can take Chariots and Centigor (provided you invest in Ghorro) as Core, I think you can have a horribly fast Beasty army.

Oh, not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but whilst Centigor no longer treat woods as open terrain (boo) they have received a small boost, making them M8 (yay) which might be some kind of compensation.

This:



or this:



is probably a better choice for some of the new big gribbly monsters in the upcoming Beastmen book.

As is this:



maybe, for a Razorgor?

Anything that lets more people field that gorgeous razorback titan in more armies is fine by me!

Hello ebay, meet my Beasts of Chaos

When I first saw the minotaurs I thought, "with so many other companies out there that make great minotaur models, why couldn't GW get it right?" Then I realized the reason why GW can't make good minotaurs is because other companies make good minotaurs. That is, I think GW deliberately made the minotaurs the way they are in order to differentiate them from all the other minotaur models out there. Take a look at them - they certainly don't look like any other manufacturers' minotaurs. Unfortunately they accomplished this by making them unspeakably ugly, but they accomplished it nonetheless. It probably all boils down to "defining their IP" or some other such nonsense. To GW it's more important to make them "different" than to make them "good".

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:When I first saw the minotaurs I thought, "with so many other companies out there that make great minotaur models, why couldn't GW get it right?" Then I realized the reason why GW can't make good minotaurs is because other companies make good minotaurs. That is, I think GW deliberately made the minotaurs the way they are in order to differentiate them from all the other minotaur models out there. Take a look at them - they certainly don't look like any other manufacturers' minotaurs. Unfortunately they accomplished this by making them unspeakably ugly, but they accomplished it nonetheless. It probably all boils down to "defining their IP" or some other such nonsense. To GW it's more important to make them "different" than to make them "good".

I think you're right as i can't possibly think of any rational justification to giving them feet with talons.

/facepalm

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:When I first saw the minotaurs I thought, "with so many other companies out there that make great minotaur models, why couldn't GW get it right?" Then I realized the reason why GW can't make good minotaurs is because other companies make good minotaurs. That is, I think GW deliberately made the minotaurs the way they are in order to differentiate them from all the other minotaur models out there. Take a look at them - they certainly don't look like any other manufacturers' minotaurs. Unfortunately they accomplished this by making them unspeakably ugly, but they accomplished it nonetheless. It probably all boils down to "defining their IP" or some other such nonsense. To GW it's more important to make them "different" than to make them "good".

Remember back in the good old days, when "defining their IP" only needed an 8-pointed star* on a belt buckle the size of an infantry shield? Not elephantitis?






*Yes, I know.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:When I first saw the minotaurs I thought, "with so many other companies out there that make great minotaur models, why couldn't GW get it right?" Then I realized the reason why GW can't make good minotaurs is because other companies make good minotaurs. That is, I think GW deliberately made the minotaurs the way they are in order to differentiate them from all the other minotaur models out there. Take a look at them - they certainly don't look like any other manufacturers' minotaurs. Unfortunately they accomplished this by making them unspeakably ugly, but they accomplished it nonetheless. It probably all boils down to "defining their IP" or some other such nonsense. To GW it's more important to make them "different" than to make them "good".

Hahaha... if only. Nope, these look like the result of underskilled CAD designers, the same artist(s) that messed up the rat ogres. It's lack of skill and poor judgement of proportion that we're seeing, married to an unwillingness to scrap cruddy sculpts and redo them. The latter fault really steams me up more than the former. I cannot imagine that CAD design has a high enough overhead that the revenue gained by making better-looking minis that people would actually buy outweighs the costs of scrapping poor ones or demanding a few hours of improvement.

I do think, though, that the widespread disappointment about the Razorgor and Minos shouldn't make those of us who already have an old force discard them right away. On the upside, the core of the army is largely the same minis and similar builds. Me, I'm gonna give it a college try with a couple builds in test games before I chuck my BoC army.

Buying any of the new figs is right out, though. I feel sorry for any newbie who gets suckered into buying the overpriced Gor/Ungor sets.

I don't know where all the whine is coming from. I looked at the Minotaur sprues today and they looked pretty nice. I can say the same thing about the Bestigors too. I guess it's a matter of taste. The pictures of miniatures from some of GW's competitors posted in this thread look completely rubbish to me and certain people seem to think they're totally ace, so I guess to each their own.

Remember back in the good old days, when "defining their IP" only needed an 8-pointed star* on a belt buckle the size of an infantry shield?

The 8-pointed star was not invented by GW and is not owned by them, though many have that impression because GW behaves as if they invented it. Like many of their ideas that don't come from history and mythology, it comes from popular fantasy literature, in this case, the "Eternal Champion" stories like Elric and Hawkmoon by Michael Moorcock.

BrassScorpion wrote:

Remember back in the good old days, when "defining their IP" only needed an 8-pointed star* on a belt buckle the size of an infantry shield?

The 8-pointed star was not invented by GW and is not owned by them, though many have that impression because GW behaves as if they invented it. Like many of their ideas that don't come from history and mythology, it comes from popular fantasy literature, in this case, the "Eternal Champion" stories like Elric and Hawkmoon by Michael Moorcock.

I think that's why the post had the "Yes, I know" comment...

Ugghhh why do so many threads eventually turn into an IP arguement... can we just keep it about the beasts and maybe get some of the pictures people speak of that show how "not bad" the minos are?

Just spoke with a friend of mine tonight about the new Minotaurs. He's a Beastmen fan and generally not overly critical of such things, but he was talking about just continuing to use his metal Minotaurs after seeing the legs on the new plastic Minotaurs. Still no Black Box for Beastmen in US GW stores yet, but I'm interested to see if they look better, the same or worse in person than the pictures on the GW website.

Savnock wrote:Nope, these look like the result of underskilled CAD designers, the same artist(s) that messed up the rat ogres.

It looks to me more like the work of someone who has never bothered to look at anatomy, either human or animal. Muscles are not lumps that stick out for no reason other than to impress kids coming off of a WoW binge, they are tissue tied to movement- it is critical to have at least a basic grasp of how the body joins together if you're going to make a believable representation of a humanoid form. They don't always bulge, they tense and relax in pairs depending on what position they are holding and how much force they are straining to exert.

You can tell when designers have taken pains to look at real-life when they design their miniatures, and while most fans don't expect minis to be realistic, we do expect them to be believable. We have to be able to suspend our disbelief and accept that something on some alternate universe battlefield could look like that. The old plastic cold ones were clearly inspired by real animals. The new plastic cold ones are less believable in musculature but more believable in skin texture, but still stay close enough to real life that they are extremely popular. The old metal warhounds, while maybe not as striking as the cold ones, definitely looked like believable mutated canines. The new plastic ones, not so much, and the disappointment when they were released was loud and clear.

Very few of us can believe that something like the new minotaurs would exist on a battlefield. With those messed up legs, they look like they can barely walk (they clearly have lumps where no muscle would exist on human or bovine legs). Those messed-up plantigrade hooftalons would only add to their inability to keep balance. And with those absurd torso muscles, it's hard to believe those cursed creatures could flex enough to even lift their weapons up to eye level, let alone swing an effective strike. And the razorgor is equally unbelievable. Though in this case the disbelief is less that it could anatomically function and more that it could possibly be scary. And what is up with that skin texture?

I think this sort of thing happens when artists get into a rut and just try to churn out product rather than slowing down to take the time to check if what they are making works. And since GW's sculptors are working for a company, they should have someone like an editor above them to slow them down when they need it. That's why I said earlier that I don't blame the sculptors, but I blame whoever gave these guys the green light. That guy is clearly not doing their job.

BrassScorpion wrote:Just spoke with a friend of mine tonight about the new Minotaurs. He's a Beastmen fan and generally not overly critical of such things, but he was talking about just continuing to use his metal Minotaurs after seeing the legs on the new plastic Minotaurs. Still no Black Box for Beastmen in US GW stores yet, but I'm interested to see if they look better, the same or worse in person than the pictures on the GW website.

Mine shipped out today, hopefully I'll have it Monday/Tuesday, and other stores should also have them going out.

Therion wrote:I don't know where all the whine is coming from. I looked at the Minotaur sprues today and they looked pretty nice. I can say the same thing about the Bestigors too. I guess it's a matter of taste. The pictures of miniatures from some of GW's competitors posted in this thread look completely rubbish to me and certain people seem to think they're totally ace, so I guess to each their own.

I dig the new bestigors, but since the other new releases are so godawful and last ones being gak too they may be benefiting from the ugly friend factor.

I'm with Therion. Models are fine. They are just going to get painted and put in ranked up units. These aren't your centerpiece.

It's the rules I'm wondering about. Can't wait to get my hands on this book.

My prediction is that the Minotaurs will look a little better (although still with unbelievably exaggerated musculature) when viewed in grey plastic, but then look worse again once they're painted, shaded and highlighted and you see the muscles/blobby flesh in more detail again.

The Bestigor don't knock my socks off and are very expensive, but I don't think they look OTT ridiculous like the Minos. They're clearly a better concept.

Therion wrote:I don't know where all the whine is coming from. I looked at the Minotaur sprues today and they looked pretty nice. I can say the same thing about the Bestigors too. I guess it's a matter of taste. The pictures of miniatures from some of GW's competitors posted in this thread look completely rubbish to me and certain people seem to think they're totally ace, so I guess to each their own.

I don't think I've said this on Dakka yet, but here's my take on the minos, after seeing sprues and various pics, etc.

It's not that they're hideous abortions or truly vomit-inducing (though perhaps quite disappointing), it's that they're so expensive at the same time. I figure a plastic kit has four elements to its success: sculpt, options included, quantity of troops, price. Some slipping in one category or the other can be made up by excelling in others, but GeeDub, judging by how many people are not planning on buying the new minos, in favor of old metals or other companies' metals, has failed this balancing act. The options are excellent as with most all new Dub kits, but here the sculpts are sub-par (muscles on muscles, heads melded to chests, etc), the quantity of troops is sad (look at the ogre boxes), and the price is unacceptable given the other categories. That's why I think the mino box fails, because of the ramped up pricing scheme GW is continuing to pursue, which could care less about the actual quality of the product vs their perception of it.

For the record though, the razorgor is quite pathetic, particularly as that thing is supposed to be run in units?? And converted into chariots?? And you pay $25 for it??

- Salvage

40kenthusiast wrote:I'm with Therion. Models are fine. They are just going to get painted and put in ranked up units. These aren't your centerpiece.

It's the rules I'm wondering about. Can't wait to get my hands on this book.

Have to disagree, respectfully, here.

Minotaurs could and should be centerpiece units in a Beastman army.

But these certainly won't be!

Wow, the prices for the Special choices for Beastmen are high.

I haven't seen the price breakdown recently...

Care to share?

I do not mind the bulbous look of the minotaurs, and I really like the look of the razorgor. But, I am a fan of grossly exaggerated models. I like that the razorgor looks like Pumba did a line of coke off a hooker's mommy parts!

Blokus wrote:I do not mind the bulbous look of the minotaurs, and I really like the look of the razorgor. But, I am a fan of grossly exaggerated models. I like that the razorgor looks like Pumba did a line of coke off a hooker's mommy parts!

Clearly, you're insane!

And you might have the best first post ever.

And since this is Dakka, that's saying something!

@Alpharius - they're all up on the GW site.

Basically-

Doombull- $41.25

Gor and Ungor Boxes (10x per box) - $24.75
Warhounds - $22
Chariot - $30

and the Specials is where it gets quite pricey:

Minotaurs (3x Plastics) - $44.50
Bestigors (10x Plastics) - $41.25
Centigors (5x Metals?) - $57.75
Razorgor (1x Metal) - $20

I saw the new plastic Minotaurs today in the 'flesh'. I take it all back, they are awesome (and huge) models, not sucky weird-ass muscle monsters as they appear in pictures.

Jin wrote:

and the Specials is where it gets quite pricey:

Minotaurs (3x Plastics) - $44.50
Bestigors (10x Plastics) - $41.25
Centigors (5x Metals?) - $57.75
Razorgor (1x Metal) - $20

You're not kidding.

Nice to see that the Razorgor is already on closeout special though...

Yeah, it's almost like they're doing their best NOT to sell those damn things.

Oddly enough, it's even uglier once you see a clear pic of it.

I already own some of the old gor/ungor plastic kits so I am going to buy the army box, two mino kits, the doombull, and two razorgors.

Blokus wrote:I already own some of the old gor/ungor plastic kits so I am going to buy the army box, two mino kits, the doombull, and two razorgors.

What?

You're twice as insane that I thought previously!