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MUAHAHAHA i knew this would come in handy one day...
*opens up Codex:Eldar (by Gavin Thorpe)*

Ok...

Iyanna Arienal, Spiritseer of Iyanden. Should be easy enough to convert into 5E with wraith-associated abalities.

Iyanna---5 5 3 3 2 5 2 10 -

Special Rules:
Spiritseer of Iyanden: While Iyanna is alive, no unit in your army needs to test for wraithsight.
Iyanna is purchased as a HQ choice, she MUST be accompanied by a retinue of 5 Enduring Ones for XX points.
Guardian of the lost: Non-troop choice wraithguard (and the Enduring Ones) units count as scoring while Iyanna is alive.

Wargear:
Spear of Teuthlas: Follows the rules for a singing spear, except it is S10 against targets with an AV and ignores armour saves. In addition it has a range of 18"
Armour of Vaul: This armour confers a 4+ invulnerable save to Iyanna, in addition its radiating effects confer a 5+ invulnerable save to her unit.

Enduring ones---5 5 6 6 2 4 2 10 2+

Special Rules:
Wraiths: Follows all the rules for wraithguard units
Chosen Protectors: The Enduring Ones are specially chosen warriors who are as eager to serve their craftworld as they were in life. The Enduring Ones know that without Iyanna, Iyanden would already be lost. Once per phase, one wound that is allocated to Iyanna may be taken on an Enduring One.

Wargear:
Wraithcannon: As normal
Wraithblades: Confers Rending to close combat attacks

Ok, so its a rush job, but you get the idea... Expensive? Yes... but i think its fitting given the little short story in the old dex.

Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann

WS BS S (FAV SAV RAV) I A
5 4 4 (11 11 10) 6 3

They are his old stats... perking them up a little we get to this...

6 6 3 (11 11 10) 6 4

Yes i know, S went down... i'll get to that bit!!! Put WS/BS up to be in line with autarchs and put A to 4 on par with Yriel.

Wargear:
Alean - the Steed of Khaine: holo-fields, vectored engines
Spear of the wind: Nuadhu's spear acts like a DCCW, it doubles his S in combat and ignores armour saves.

Alean - the Steed of Khaine: Nuadhu rides upon a viper that has been built to allow him to fight from its back, much as Khaine rode to war on the legendary steed Alean. Nuadhu and the vyper are considered a single model; he cannot leave his fighting platform. Think of Nuadhu as a unique type of vyper with the special rules detailed below.
--Type: Fast,Skimmer,open-topped
--Weapons: Shurican cannon, 2 shurican catapults
--Close combat: Nuadhu fights in combat the same way as a dreadnaught, using the profile above. He may make a 6" Assault move in the assault phase providing he moved no more than 12" in the movement phase.
--Hit and Run (confered to unit)
--Reckless: Ignores crew shaken and crew stunned
--Chief of the Wild Riders. Nuadhu may only join jetbike units. Any unit joined by him becomes fearless and gains furious charge.

Messy.... but more a less a copy/paste with only slight changes, but its something to work on.

Iyanna simply needs a cost. Also, Wraithblades is a very good candidate to perk up normal Wraiths...

Having WS on an AV unit, as well as an AV HQ for a craftworld that's known for it's jetbikes... why not a Jetbike?

6 6 3 3(4) 3 6 4 10 3+(4+)

Alean - Jetbike that confers 4+ invulnerable save

Rest more or less the same

Mahtamori wrote:Iyanna simply needs a cost. Also, Wraithblades is a very good candidate to perk up normal Wraiths...

Having WS on an AV unit, as well as an AV HQ for a craftworld that's known for it's jetbikes... why not a Jetbike?

6 6 3 3(4) 3 6 4 10 3+(4+)

Alean - Jetbike that confers 4+ invulnerable save

Rest more or less the same

The original rules have him on a vyper, so i just went with that! I never managed to try him out so i don't know how well the vyperdread thing actually worked.

Few things i would add to the old characters

Iyanna- instead of the enduring ones (although they are cool) i was thinking of a special Wraithlord, sort of like a Catellan+Kell pair, in that they work well while together

Nahadu- Put him on a cool Jetbike, and give him a retinue of Assault based Jetbikes (Power Weapons and such)

On a side note I'm not sure about the Court of the Young King as a special unit for Biel-Tan, yes it makes sense fluff-wise, but how do we make the Exarchs work well together in a squad (they would never be able to agree what to attack)

For Iyanna, we should make one or the other HQ (probably the Wraith) optional, and simply provide great benefits if you take him (like Kell for Creed), but make Iyanna good enough to take alone, or else they become too easy to single out from one another (or simply get targeted if they form a single unit).

However, I was iffy on craftworld specific stuff, but it's shaping up real nice, particularly Iyanna, I can't find her story in my dex, where is it, or is it third edition?

Nahadu should be on a Jetbike, and have an optional retinue. Who wants Vypers, even with holo-fields?

TheRedArmy wrote:For Iyanna, we should make one or the other HQ (probably the Wraith) optional, and simply provide great benefits if you take him (like Kell for Creed), but make Iyanna good enough to take alone, or else they become too easy to single out from one another (or simply get targeted if they form a single unit).

However, I was iffy on craftworld specific stuff, but it's shaping up real nice, particularly Iyanna, I can't find her story in my dex, where is it, or is it third edition?

Nahadu should be on a Jetbike, and have an optional retinue. Who wants Vypers, even with holo-fields?

It could be interesting to either have her with an elite WG unit or unlock an elite WL. Both units could have merits that the other does not.

Yes there was a story on her 3rd ed codex entry.

As for Nuadhu... well... I'd like a Vyper, as that is what he comes with in 3rd ed. A bike might be nice, but the idea of a vyperdread... or fastskimmerwalkerthing just sounds fun.

The problem with craftworld specific rules is if you are creative and make your own craftworld you are put at a giant disadvantage.

rivers64 wrote:The problem with craftworld specific rules is if you are creative and make your own craftworld you are put at a giant disadvantage.

Rather than craftworld specific rules i'm thinking just craftworld specific charecters. Those charecters could remove 0-1 limits, mess the Foc up a little, or let you take a unique unit.
The charecters themselves would most likely be expensive, and if the autarch rules we were discussing beforehand are how we settle on them then i'd seriously consider taking 2 and having all sorts of fancy rules that craftworld specific charecters do not have access to.

If its done right then craftworld specific rules will not be a no-brainer choice, rather a playing style choice.

And on that note... Were left with Ulthwe, Alaitoc, Beil tann + possibly others... (If we go with Iyanna and Nuadhu, with some more changes most likely)

rivers64 wrote:The problem with craftworld specific rules is if you are creative and make your own craftworld you are put at a giant disadvantage.

Do think that Vulkan He'stan or Pedro Kantor being in the Space Marines codex is a problem? Essentially its exactly the same, it just adds another way to make the codex more varied. There's no reason you can't have a "counts as" Iyanna for your own made up craftworld if it's got a wraith-y theme, or a "counts as" Eldrad council if your made up craftworld has bad ass psykers.

@Dayve110 - I think the Nuadhu idea is a bit over complicated, I like the idea but it could be done similary and much more simply as a jetbike. Making a fast/Skimmer/Open topped/Walker vehicle would get a bit confusing
if it was just a T5 S4(8) 2+ 4++ jetbike then it would be fine. You could even model it on a vyper but just class it as a jetbike (like beastmasters are on a JI style sky board yet are classed as beasts).

@Gorechilde – The thing about Pedro Cantor and Lysander is that they replace a rule you would be getting anyway. If you want to go this way then make some general rule that any eldar army gets no matter who they are and have it replaced by craftworld specific rules.

rivers64 wrote:@Gorechild – The thing about Pedro Cantor and Lysander is that they replace a rule you would be getting anyway. If you want to go this way then make some general rule that any eldar army gets no matter who they are and have it replaced by craftworld specific rules.

That would work, it would be very "lets just copy space marines" though, and thats a sentiment that I absolutely detest. As others have suggested it would probably be better (IMO) to just have a penalty attached to the special rule alongside the craftworld themed bonus.
For example:

An army that inculdes *insert name of Alaitoc character here* may not include Dire Avengers or Guardians as troops, however, all sniper rifles in the army count as being "Assault 1" instead of "Heavy 1"

An army that inculdes *insert name of Biel Tan character here* may not include Guardians or Rangers/Pathfinders, however, Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions count as Troops instead of Elites

An army that inculdes *insert name of Ulthwe character here* may not include Rangers or Dire Avengers as troops, however, the range of all psychic powers is increased by 6"

I won't nit-pick on the suggestions there, Gorechild, but I do like the Alaitoc one a lot - simple and effective.

There's really two ways of doing craftworlds. One way is to add special, named, characters and the other is to make it entirely generic (i.e. kill off the major craftworlds as identifiers and simply identify them as "eldritch", "sword storm", "wind rider" etc).
Whether the latter is appended to key characters or simply there per default ("Choose the nature of your craftworld") a'la space marine codex. Well...

well, the mutations and doctrines and etc have been pretty completely phased out. It seems that the last several codicies have leaned towards the selection of characters to define the majority of the list. While it was rather overt in C:SM, it is less so, but still present, in the following releases.

So that being said, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see something similar done with the next Eldar codex - especially given the background present in the current codex and the extant characters (Yriel and Eldrad). I think the most realistic eventuality is to see the Phoenix Lords go to Apoc, and to have a further development of the craftworlds. They have rich fluff, characters, playstyles, etc. I think it will happen with the official codex. To what extent that should influence our direction here.... I can't say.

Again I'll stress that the effectiveness of a Craftworld HQ choice will ultimately hinge on the effectiveness of the units they encourage taking. Our Saim Hann leader won't be very useful if Vypers and Shining Spears are still as mediocre and bad (respectively) as they currently are. Likewise our Altaioc HQ choice will be rather ineffective if Rangers are speedbumps and the army is based on War Walkers.

And, I should say that I agree with those who have reservations about a craftworld centric approach to the HQ section. The Space Marine HQ choices are much-maligned for their special rules - the proclivity of players to take the few most effective choices in every single army annoys people. That being said.... there will never be a codex which doesn't have some units that are better than others, and are exploited for doing so. If the idea is to make Farseers and Autarchs be effective enough on the tabletop to at least offer a reasonable alternative to the craftworld specific HQs, I think thats enough. I should say that I don't feel the C:SM generic HQs are good enough, in light of their special character counterparts.

Mahtamori wrote:I won't nit-pick on the suggestions there, Gorechild, but I do like the Alaitoc one a lot - simple and effective.

Thanks

Mahtamori wrote:There's really two ways of doing craftworlds. One way is to add special, named, characters and the other is to make it entirely generic (i.e. kill off the major craftworlds as identifiers and simply identify them as "eldritch", "sword storm", "wind rider" etc).
Whether the latter is appended to key characters or simply there per default ("Choose the nature of your craftworld") a'la space marine codex. Well...

Gwyidion wrote:well, the mutations and doctrines and etc have been pretty completely phased out. It seems that the last several codicies have leaned towards the selection of characters to define the majority of the list. While it was rather overt in C:SM, it is less so, but still present, in the following releases.

I agree with Gwyidion, Whilst it would work, its a bit of an outdated solution.

Gwyidion wrote:Again I'll stress that the effectiveness of a Craftworld HQ choice will ultimately hinge on the effectiveness of the units they encourage taking. Our Saim Hann leader won't be very useful if Vypers and Shining Spears are still as mediocre and bad (respectively) as they currently are. Likewise our Altaioc HQ choice will be rather ineffective if Rangers are speedbumps and the army is based on War Walkers.

My initial aim was to come up with a set of rules for each unit so that every one would be a viable option. If we manage that then each character would at least be viable.

Gwyidion wrote:And, I should say that I agree with those who have reservations about a craftworld centric approach to the HQ section. The Space Marine HQ choices are much-maligned for their special rules - the proclivity of players to take the few most effective choices in every single army annoys people. That being said.... there will never be a codex which doesn't have some units that are better than others, and are exploited for doing so. If the idea is to make Farseers and Autarchs be effective enough on the tabletop to at least offer a reasonable alternative to the craftworld specific HQs, I think thats enough. I should say that I don't feel the C:SM generic HQs are good enough, in light of their special character counterparts.

I think the main advantage of the generic HQ's is how much you can customize them. With the huge wealth of options we were suggesting for the Autarch and the new approach to the Farseer/Council then I think each option would have its own merits.

Just to be clear, I'm not a fan of specific craftworlds simply because it is so very difficult to make them all meaningful - but I do enjoy discussing them and their implementation. However, I would like to see a completely separate Corsair faction (where Yriel would play a larger role).

If, however, special characters are opted to make the inclinations towards specific craftworlds, then we don't really need to have even all the major craftworlds represented. There is something to be said for the current codex - it makes a damned good representation of militia-Ulthwé or Saim-Hann. And Yme-Loc for that matter (Davu!).

An army that inculdes *insert name of Alaitoc character here* may not include Dire Avengers or Guardians as troops, however, all sniper rifles in the army count as being "Assault 1" instead of "Heavy 1"

An army that inculdes *insert name of Biel Tan character here* may not include Guardians or Rangers/Pathfinders, however, their Avatar of Khaine has +2A

An army that inculdes *insert name of Ulthwe character here* may not include Rangers or Dire Avengers as troops, however, any sucessful attempt to nulify a psychic power cast by the eldar player can be ignored on a 3+

An army that includes *insert name of Saim Han character here* may only include units on jetbikes, skimmers and units embarked within vehicles at the start of the game. In exchange, all jetbikes and vypers gain a 5+ cover save if they move in their last movement phase.

An army that includes *insert name of Iyanden character here* may not include Dire Avengers, Rangers/Pathfinders or more than 1 unit of Guardians, however, all units with the "Wraith" rule count as scoring.

Updates in orange

Unless I've missed something, all combinations of the HQ's would allow you to make a legal list. But obviously just running 1 would allow a better craftworld themed army.

Thoughts?

The Biel Tan Character needs to be changed. To gain any benefit from him at all you would need to take the Avatar which would take up way too many points and slots.

I'm really against to limiting your army choices just because you take a certain special character, people wouldn't want to take a special character if it limited their choice in troops, I know I wouldn't. If anything just including a bonus to taking a certain troop choice would be incentive enough for people to take more of that type of unit.

My proposition:

Alatioc character (who I still believe should be Hoec)- grants all rangers and pathfinders longrifles assault 1 instead of Heavy 1

Saim-Hann character (Pretty safe to assume it will be Nuhadu at this point)- grants all Jetbikes Furious Charge and maybe allow them to purchase power weapons

Ulthwe character (All for sticking with Eldrad here, just add a bit more fluff on his ongoing legend)- gives some bonus to Warlocks (not quite sure here, maybe let them have two psychic powers that they can use on the same turn)

Iyanden character (supporting Iyanna here)- Removes the Wraithsight rule for all Wraith units (assuming that Wraithguard become Troop choice here)

Biel-Tan (Still not sure about this guy)- I dunno maybe grants some bonus to Exarchs, the entry states that there are more Exarchs in Biel-Tan then any of the other craftworlds so why not give them something nice?

Even after removing these penalties, I'm still more likely to use Rangers then Jetbikes in an Alatioc army, but if I want to have a small group of Jetbikes for some purpose (like last turn objective grabs) I'm still able to take them.

Oriallis wrote:
Saim-Hann character (Pretty safe to assume it will be Nuhadu at this point)- grants all Jetbikes Furious Charge and maybe allow them to purchase power weapons

Jetbikes should be allowed to purchase power weapons anyway. I know, new unit, but essential.

Hoec - XXX points

-BS-WS-S--T--I---A-W--Ld--Sv
--8--5---3--3--6--2--3--10--3+

Unit Type
Independant Character

Wargear:
Silence
Defensive Grenades

Special Rules:
Less Than a Shadow
Mentor of Guile

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Silence- Range 48" S8 AP1 Heavy 1 Pinning or Range 48" S5 AP3 Assault 3 Pinning

Less Than a Shadow- Hoec and any unit he joins have all cover saves improved to 2+. In addition, Hoec has a 4+ invunerable save against any wounds inflicted by a weapon that ignores cover.

Mentor of Guile- every ranger long rifle in an army that includes Hoec changes its type from "Heavy 1" to "Assault 1"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How's that look?

Oriallis wrote:I'm really against to limiting your army choices just because you take a certain special character, people wouldn't want to take a special character if it limited their choice in troops, I know I wouldn't. If anything just including a bonus to taking a certain troop choice would be incentive enough for people to take more of that type of unit.

Even after removing these penalties, I'm still more likely to use Rangers then Jetbikes in an Alatioc army, but if I want to have a small group of Jetbikes for some purpose (like last turn objective grabs) I'm still able to take them.

The current rendition of the codex moved a number of things around in an attempt to allow what the Craftworld Codex allowed on a generic basis. So the Craftworld straightjacket was removed for some watered down options.

1. Alaitoc - (fuzzy on this one) Rangers and Pathfinders had a 1-shot-per-unit effect on the game before the game started. Current codex increased minimum squad size and pathfinders became troop upgrade.

2. Biel-Tan - used to get SS and HB as troop choices. Current codex buffed Dire Avengers to the point they are the troop choice.

3. Ulthwe - Black Guardians and Council. Well sorry you got genericed other than Eldrad seems to lead about 80% of all eldar armies.

4. Iyanden - WG & WL as troops. In the current codex, never mechanized and alway @ 400 pts each but you still can field wraithguard as troops.

5. Saim Hann - Used to have special character and special lead bike squad. Bikes moved to troops and cost lowered so that bike based armies are available to all.

The generic nature of the codex has its benefits in that it has allowed the Eldar to remain competitive over time. The sad new is that you can probably reduce them down to some variation of wave serpents, fire dragons and dire avengers. So the question to me is. Are we happy with the generic representations that may be weaker but in theory allow great flexibility in your build or do we accept some restrictions (shades of Codex: Craftworld) to allow otherwise non-viable or even illegal builds to present different flavors of eldar.

My vote is to get away from the wave serpent+fire dragons + dire avengers usually led by Eldrad and get some flexibility and perhaps enhancements through some means. If not by a codex: craftworld of yore but present the options through the flavor of the day - named characters.

I would like to see these options/enhancements made available and through a forced IC expenditure is a good method. As stated before, the effectiveness of what each option unlocks is key to making them used. The other side is not making the enhancement OP so it gets abused.

Moving slots (e.g. Biel Tan autarch allowing HB and SS to be taken as troops.) allows for a specialized army build but doesn't modify the troops. OTOH if say you added furious charge and say +1 to the attack line of all bikes led by a Saim Hann autarch it may be acceptable but would it make them viable? If you added say a PW option to all riders for say +5 or +10 pts would it make for an OP build?

Those are the issues in my mind. The benefits need to allow for a unique philosophy but ideally should be overall neutral as opposed to any other option or lack of an option. By attaching it to a named IC, you are automatically forcing a change in that you have only one free HQ slot left. Then considering that and the points invested are we going to see - for example - 50/50 generic lists versus a craftworld focused list or do we create a monster and end up with say 80/20 Biel Tan lists versus generic and the other Craftworld options as just inferior options that rarely get used.

Gorechild wrote:Hoec - XXX points

-BS-WS-S--T--I---A-W--Ld--Sv
--8--5---3--3--6--2--3--10--3+

Unit Type
Independant Character

Wargear:
Silence
Defensive Grenades

Special Rules:
Less Than a Shadow
Mentor of Guile

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Silence- Range 48" S8 AP1 Heavy 1 Pinning or Range 48" S5 AP3 Assault 3 Pinning

Less Than a Shadow- Hoec and any unit he joins have all cover saves improved to 2+. In addition, Hoec has a 4+ invunerable save against any wounds inflicted by a weapon that ignores cover.

Mentor of Guile- every ranger long rifle in an army that includes Hoec changes its type from "Heavy 1" to "Assault 1"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How's that look?

I like it, Silence looks totally awesome, and if you include him with a Pathfinder Squad he'll be incredibly difficult to get rid of when sticking to area terrain.

Personally I think we have a winner

Specify pathfinders as the unit he must join. Otherwise the 2++ cover would be worth taking him every time. Also we need to work on new ranger rules for him to be viable.

rivers64 wrote:Specify pathfinders as the unit he must join.

It would be worthless if it was only pathfinders, they already get 2+ cover 95% of the time

rivers64 wrote:Otherwise the 2++ cover would be worth taking him every time.

I think thats why we were going to include a downside to taking each character, so none of them would be a "must have" obvious choice, you have to make a sacrifice for the awesomeness.

I was thinking of adding a Tellion style "wounds inflicted by Hoec in the shooting phase are allocated by the shooting payer instead of the target player. These wounds are allocated first, before the rest of the wounds from the rest of his unit."

Then you'd have a SC who is actually brilliant at range - 2+ reroll 4+ to hit, then the option to quick-fire and potentially bring down 3 marines or snipe to insta-kill a HQ. That on top of the fact he can join a move-and-shoot unit of pathfinders that rend on a 5+

How many points do you reckon that suggestion would be worth? how about with the wound alllocation bit added in?

2+ cover Wraithguard? You're kidding right?

How about Hoec and whichever unit he is in works under same rules as Grey Knights, in addition to him having Master Stealth (since stealth is conferred to unit from IC)? (That's Night Fighting, but equipment which helps against night fighting doesn't work on it, and they are rolled for separately)

A unit of Dark Reapers or Pathfinders would benefit greatly but the enemy would be able to counter it.

Oh, and just 'cause I spend too much time on YMDC - "Every Long Rifle in the army is treated as Assault 1 instead of Heavy 1" so it doesn't only apply to Rangers (so that Pathfinders can use them as well)

I don't think that Pathfinders have any different kind of Long Rifle, they're just able to use them better. I think they're all just called Ranger Long Rifles.

I'll be damned, I thought they were simply "Long Rifle"

Does somebody who knows a little more about the Saim Han dude want to have a crack at his rules? I've been trying to come up with something but I don't like anything I come up with

Just double checked and they are named "Ranger Long Rifles" so the wording should cause any substantial rule lawyering

The special character of Saim Han is, Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Han.

original stats (4th edition)
-WS-BS-S--Front--Side---Rear--I--A
--5--4---4----11------11-----10--6--3

The viper he rode was called, Alean - the stead of khaine

Came armed with a power weapon, had hit and run and reckless (ignored stunned and shaken on the damage table).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suggest:

WS:5 BS:5 S:4 Front:11 Side:11 Rear:11 I:6 A:3

Alean:
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon

Nuadhu:
Star Lance (need fancy name)
Shimmershield (in combat the viper gets an invul save)
hit and run
Reckless ignores stunned and shaken on the damage table

200pts

What do you think?