Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Squig_herder wrote:
WS:5 BS:5 S:4 Front:11 Side:11 Rear:11 I:6 A:3

Alean:
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon

Nuadhu:
Star Lance (need fancy name)
Shimmershield (in combat the viper gets an invul save)
hit and run
Reckless ignores stunned and shaken on the damage table

200pts

What do you think?

Interesting, i'll re-do my earlier suggestion and see how it pans out.

Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann

WS:6 BS:6 S:3(6) front:11 side:11 rear:10 I:6 A:4
-WS and BS upped to 6 to resemble the Autarch statline, while technically not an Autarch, it can be easilt written in that he is in fact very similar in martial skill should have a similar statline to the the other Autrachs
-S:3(6) As he is a vehicle, A DCCW would not go amiss, also his weapon could be seen as a more powerfull laserlance that retains its hitting power, if you were going to be charging headlong into the enemy on a giant flying contraption you'd most likely take a lance of some description, and the technology is already there so having just a power weapon seems a bit 'meh'
-11/11/10, essentially just an armoured vyper, no problems there.
-I:6 A:4, again on par with the Autarch with I: and on par with Yriel on A:

Wargear:
Alean - the Steed of Khaine: holo-fields, vectored engines
Spear of the wind: Nuadhu's spear acts like a DCCW, it doubles his S in combat and ignores armour saves.
-Alean, holo-fields and vectored engines would be nice, star engines would seem to help with moving but ideally he'd be in a unit of jetbikes. Spirit stones are not needed.
-Spear of the wind: OK, a better name is needed at the very least, and as noted above, DCCW

Alean - the Steed of Khaine: Nuadhu rides upon a viper that has been built to allow him to fight from its back, much as Khaine rode to war on the legendary steed Alean. Nuadhu and the vyper are considered a single model; he cannot leave his fighting platform. Think of Nuadhu as a unique type of vyper with the special rules detailed below.
Simple so far...
--Type: Fast,Skimmer,open-topped
Well he is riding a vyper...
--Weapons: Two Shurican cannons
No point TL'ing with BS6, and those shots will improve his anti-infantry roll as he has limited anti-tank
--Close combat: Nuadhu fights in combat the same way as a dreadnaught, using the profile above. He may make a 6" Assault move in the assault phase providing he moved no more than 12" in the movement phase.
Cant' have him getting into combat TOO fast...
--Reckless: Ignores crew shaken and crew stunned
Thats a given
--Chief of the Wild Riders. Nuadhu may only join jetbike units. Any unit joined by him becomes fearless and gains furious charge and Hit and Run (confered to unit)
That'd make a decent unit of jetbikes perhaps...

Now how usefull he is will depend on how useful GJB units become, we could allow the options of Guardian Storm jetbike units... dropping the TL-shcats in favour of pistol + CCW, possibly with weak shimmer shields (6++) and the option to take a power weapon or similar instead of a shcannon per 3 members.

Guardian jetbikes same as now, but -2 pts per model, the option of 1 pw per 4 models, 1 flamer/melta per 4 models.

Still not sure about the whole Vyper riding thing, do we even have rules for attacking a unit with a mix of Vehicle and Infrantry. (Other then Artillary I mean) It strikes me that Nuadhu could be made just as good, perhaps even better if Alean was just a jetbike with an Invul save, and we wouldn't need to use any weird rules.

dayve110 wrote:
Interesting, i'll re-do my earlier suggestion and see how it pans out.

Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann

WS:6 BS:6 S:3(6) front:11 side:11 rear:10 I:6 A:4
-WS and BS upped to 6 to resemble the Autarch statline, while technically not an Autarch, it can be easilt written in that he is in fact very similar in martial skill should have a similar statline to the the other Autrachs
-S:3(6) As he is a vehicle, A DCCW would not go amiss, also his weapon could be seen as a more powerfull laserlance that retains its hitting power, if you were going to be charging headlong into the enemy on a giant flying contraption you'd most likely take a lance of some description, and the technology is already there so having just a power weapon seems a bit 'meh'
-11/11/10, essentially just an armoured vyper, no problems there.
-I:6 A:4, again on par with the Autarch with I: and on par with Yriel on A:

Wargear:
Alean - the Steed of Khaine: holo-fields, vectored engines
Spear of the wind: Nuadhu's spear acts like a DCCW, it doubles his S in combat and ignores armour saves.
-Alean, holo-fields and vectored engines would be nice, star engines would seem to help with moving but ideally he'd be in a unit of jetbikes. Spirit stones are not needed.
-Spear of the wind: OK, a better name is needed at the very least, and as noted above, DCCW

Alean - the Steed of Khaine: Nuadhu rides upon a viper that has been built to allow him to fight from its back, much as Khaine rode to war on the legendary steed Alean. Nuadhu and the vyper are considered a single model; he cannot leave his fighting platform. Think of Nuadhu as a unique type of vyper with the special rules detailed below.
Simple so far...
--Type: Fast,Skimmer,open-topped
Well he is riding a vyper...
--Weapons: Two Shurican cannons
No point TL'ing with BS6, and those shots will improve his anti-infantry roll as he has limited anti-tank
--Close combat: Nuadhu fights in combat the same way as a dreadnaught, using the profile above. He may make a 6" Assault move in the assault phase providing he moved no more than 12" in the movement phase.
Cant' have him getting into combat TOO fast...
--Reckless: Ignores crew shaken and crew stunned
Thats a given
--Chief of the Wild Riders. Nuadhu may only join jetbike units. Any unit joined by him becomes fearless and gains furious charge and Hit and Run (confered to unit)
That'd make a decent unit of jetbikes perhaps...

Now how usefull he is will depend on how useful GJB units become, we could allow the options of Guardian Storm jetbike units... dropping the TL-shcats in favour of pistol + CCW, possibly with weak shimmer shields (6++) and the option to take a power weapon or similar instead of a shcannon per 3 members.

I personally feel 2 shuriken cannons are overkill, he is a cc special character, I think 1 is more than enough. The improved stats make sense and the DCCW sounds fine at S6. I think the viper is too fragile in CC and needs a save of some sort 6++ shimmershield?

Squig_herder wrote:I personally feel 2 shuriken cannons are overkill, he is a cc special character, I think 1 is more than enough. The improved stats make sense and the DCCW sounds fine at S6. I think the viper is too fragile in CC and needs a save of some sort 6++ shimmershield?

2 might be a bit much yea... although the save i forgot!
A new Eldar dex may end up with something similar to flicker fields so a 5++ wouldn't be out of place.

Thinking about it, it may just be easier to say... "Before you move you must declare wether Nuadhu will move as a vehicle (Fast,skimmer) or a jetbike (12" move, 6" assault) as this would allow him and his unit to JSJ if needs be.

I think the jetbike would be a simpler option but i just like sticking to the original idea... and riding a vyper is just cool...

"Nuadhu acts like a Walker in the assault phase, which means he can and will be locked in close quarter combat, unlike other Vypers. Nuadhu's steed is a lot faster than a Walker, however, and to that effect if Nuadhu has moved more than 12" in the movement phase he count as having run and may not assault. In addition to this, Nuadhu consolidates 2D6" rather than the normal 1D6"."

I'm not certain it's wise to open the can of worms allowing Nuadhu to mix with a non-vehicle unit or a non-walker vehicle unit. This would mean his rules would better be written with the starting statement "Nuadhu does not follow very many of the rules in the core rule book, use these instead" or something to that effect.

Could be neat having a special unit of Vypers that's also close-combat capable. I mean in general for all armies as well.

I'm not 100% certain I agree on DCCW. I mean, more to the point, skipping DCCW entirely from the description and discussion is probably for the best - it just doesn't make sense.
Having the spear have the same effect is a different matter, however.
"Unnamed Lance - Nuadhu carries a laser lance of tremendous power into battle, specially designed to take advantage of the vaster power supply in Alean. The Unnamed Lance has a profile of 6" S6 AP3 Assault 1 Lance and grants Nuadhu +3 strength in close combat and is treated as a power weapon."

Mahtamori wrote:"Nuadhu acts like a Walker in the assault phase, which means he can and will be locked in close quarter combat, unlike other Vypers. Nuadhu's steed is a lot faster than a Walker, however, and to that effect if Nuadhu has moved more than 12" in the movement phase he count as having run and may not assault. In addition to this, Nuadhu consolidates 2D6" rather than the normal 1D6"."

I dont like the idea of suddenly calling a fast skimmer "the viper" a walker, it will cause one hell of a headache and secondly, he has the hit and run special rule, even if he was locked battle, he could just use that

FETH! I just wrote out a whole entry for him and my stupid computer messed up and lost it

it was along the lines of:

Jetbike - BS/WS/T5 S6 3+/4++

then some fluff to say he's such a skilled rider that he flies Nuadhu with such skil that it plays like a jetbike instead of a vehicle. Pass off the T5 as being because of the extra protection of the big bike, 4++ is down to holo-fields.

Spear gives him double strength and ignores armour in combat.

Give him a special rule that says 1 in 3 GJB's can take a fusion gun or flamer instead of shiriken weapon.



I think it just avoids a load of the complications caused by having a jetbike/vehicle complex unit.

Agreed with Gorechild. Simply being a Jetbike is a more elegant solution. (Now, does the model have two passengers? How many guns does the model have? Needs a gunner/pilot/special rule if it's to fire both guns if he's got two)

Squig_herder wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:"Nuadhu acts like a Walker in the assault phase, which means he can and will be locked in close quarter combat, unlike other Vypers. Nuadhu's steed is a lot faster than a Walker, however, and to that effect if Nuadhu has moved more than 12" in the movement phase he count as having run and may not assault. In addition to this, Nuadhu consolidates 2D6" rather than the normal 1D6"."

I dont like the idea of suddenly calling a fast skimmer "the viper" a walker, it will cause one hell of a headache and secondly, he has the hit and run special rule, even if he was locked battle, he could just use that

It is a re-write in order to try and get away from just that effect, but I suppose it wasn't clear enough rules writing. The nice thing with calling it a walker is that you can piggy-back ride on already existing rules, whereas saying it can act as a Vyper or a Jetbike arbitrarily leaves open to misinterpretation such as "well, it's a Vyper and I'll just leave combat now". Hit & Run has nothing to do with what I wrote. Any model with Hit & Run can use it, regardless of whether it's a vehicle or not.

I personally feel that leaving it as a viper is best. The fluff says that he is very fast and reckless, I could imagine him darting from one fight an another, I think the viper make more sense, fluff and game wise. Having a character that can launch an assault and not be tied to it would be great IMO and fits in with fluff and adds a new play style.

After some review of DCCW vs lance, I think the DCCW is overpowered, he is fitting out of a pulpit not weilding a large mech arm or like. Even if you still think that he should be in a bike, the lance makes even more sense there opposed to the DCCW.

I also think that he should not be allowed to join other units, removing some confusion of mixed units

@Mahtamori:
You started intoducing the "run rule" for assaulting with a fast skimmer, comparing it to a walker. That make little sense, it is a fast skimmer its designed to move 12-24" in the movement phase and is backed but previous rules and fluff allowing him to move at those speeds and aasult.

If we go for the Vyper vehicle version then I'd suggest either removing the independant character rule so he has to be fielded on his own, or only allow him to join vyper squadrons. He could then confer a rule that allows all Vypers to be used in CC.

I'll re-write my Jetbike style rules suggestion if I get the time this afternoon so we can make a like-for-like comparison with the vehicle style rules.

Gorechild wrote:If we go for the Vyper vehicle version then I'd suggest either removing the independant character rule so he has to be fielded on his own, or only allow him to join vyper squadrons. He could then confer a rule that allows all Vypers to be used in CC.

I agree with the IC ruling, we will remove that.

I think the army benefit is that he makes any jetbike mount unit to count as scoring (autarch, farseer, warlock, shinning spears) or maybe just making vipers count as scoring? or an improved WS of all jetbike units by +1 or all jetbikes gain furious charge and hit and run USR


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Summary of Viper mounted Nuadhu:

HQ

WS:6 BS:5 S:3 Front:11 Side:11 Rear:11 I:6 A:3

Alean:
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon

Nuadhu:
Star Lance (need fancy name)
Shimmershield, 6++ for the viper in close combat
hit and run
Reckless (ignores stunned and shaken on the damage table)

Brotherhood of the wind:
Nuadhu has an intoxicating presence, driving his blood brothers to rider faster and more dangerously into combat behind him. Nuadhu confers the furious charge and hit and run USR to any model mounted on a jetbike. Any viper in an army with Nuadhu count as scoring.

No IC rule, so he must be fielded by himself in the viper.

200pts

Vehicle

Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann - 200 points

WS:6 BS:5 S:3 Front:11 Side:11 Rear:11 I:6 A:3

Unit Type:
Fast
Skimmer
Open topped

Wargear:
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon
Star Lance (need fancy name)
Shimmershield

Special Rules:
Hit and Run
Reckless
Brotherhood of the wind
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Star Lance (need fancy name) - Ignores armour, double strength in CC
Shimmershied - 5+ inv save in CC
Reckless - Ignores all "Stunned" and "Shaken" results on the vehicle damage table.
Brotherhood of the wind - Nuadhu confers the furious charge and hit and run USR to any model mounted on a jetbike. Any viper in an army with Nuadhu count as scoring.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jetbike

Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann - XXX points

BS: 5 WS: 6 S: 6 T: 5 I: 6 A: 3 W: 3 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+

Unit Type:
Independant Character
Jetbike

Wargear:
Alean
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon
Star Lance (need fancy name)

Special Rules:
Hit and Run
Furious Charge
Brotherhood of the Wind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Star Lance (need fancy name) - Ignores armour, double strength in CC (already included in profile)
Holofields - 4+ inv save
Alean - A special Vyper that is riden as a jetbike, confers +2 toughness and a 3+ armour save (included in profile)
Reckless - Nuadhu confers all of his USR's to any unit that he is joined to.
Brotherhood of the Wind - The wild riders of Saim Han are masters of the eldar jetbike, perfectly equipt to take on any foe from the back of their wraithbone steeds. For every 3 models in a unit of Guardian jetbikes in an army with Nuadhu, 1 may upgrade their shuriken catapult with a fusion gun or flamer for +5 points, as well as the normal shuriken cannon upgrade option
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which is your favorite?

Im still in favour of a viper over jetbike after reading more fluff, but I want to revise the profile:
Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann - 210 points

WS:6 BS:5 S:3 Front:11 Side:11 Rear:11 I:6 A:3

Unit Type:
Fast
Skimmer
Open topped

Wargear:
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon
Star Lance (need fancy name)
Shimmershield
Star engines

Special Rules:
Hit and Run
Reckless
Brotherhood of the wind
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Star Lance (need fancy name) - ignore armour saves, works just like the star lance, in the book (which actually confers a S8 on the charge), but change the shooting profile to 6" S8 AP1 assault 1, lance
Shimmershied - 5+ inv save in CC
Reckless - Ignores all "Stunned" and "Shaken" results on the vehicle damage table.
Brotherhood of the wind - Nuadhu confers the furious charge and hit and run USR to any model mounted on a jetbike. Any viper in an army with Nuadhu count as scoring.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that he should only get the S8 on the charge as with all star lances, I have include ignores armours (so not just on the charge), but I have buffered the shooting profile by making it AP1 to reflect the penetrating power of said lance. I have also included star engines as the man loves his speed, I have increased the cost by 10 points. I dont know if the points are at the right level but its a start.

I regards to your version of "brotherhood of the wind", at just +3 points for a cannon, flamer or fusion, I think it makes it too cheap and over powered, hence why I kept mine.

Just ammended mine slightly. We should wait and see what others thinhg, I think its a bit pointless us two just going through it, of course we'll both think our choices are best

Now I can get my mind onto sorting out some suggestions for other craftworlds

GRRRRR!
I was making quite a long post and it messed up and refused to post...

I prefer the Vyper stats, as that is what was origionally included... however using the vyper model with toughness 5 (not 3(5)) would be a nice trade off and let him join units without headaches.
If we keep the model... i suppose jetbike rules would be more easily introduced than the vyper-dread.

So, i'll edit gorechilds as i usuallly end up doing...

Gorechild wrote:Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann - XXX points

WS: 6 BS: 6 S: 3(6) T: 5 I: 6 A: 4 W: 3 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+
BS:6 and A:4 to bring him in line with Yriel, i could see BS dropping to 5 if WS was upped to 7. I still think 4 attacks is best however.

Unit Type:
Independant Character
Jetbike
Easy enough.

Wargear:
Alean
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon
Star Lance (need fancy name)
Original fluff calls his spear the 'Spear of the wind' so i propose we simply stick with that.

Special Rules:
Hit and Run
Furious Charge
Brotherhood of the Wind
Hit and run would mean he cannot be locked in combat unless he fails his I roll, so he can still be 'reckless' and jump from combat to combat without the down side of being a vehicle and hence shot at in the opponents turn because he is not locked in combat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Star Lance (need fancy name) - Ignores armour, double strength in CC (already included in profile)
Fine by me!
Holofields - 4+ inv save
Alean - A special Vyper that is riden as a jetbike, confers +2 toughness and a 3+ armour save (included in profile)
Fine again.
Reckless - Nuadhu confers all of his USR's to any unit that he is joined to.
Same again.
Brotherhood of the Wind - The wild riders of Saim Han are masters of the eldar jetbike, perfectly equipt to take on any foe from the back of their wraithbone steeds. For every 3 models in a unit of Guardian jetbikes in an army with Nuadhu, 1 may upgrade their shuriken catapult with a fusion gun or flamer for +5 points, as well as the normal shuriken cannon upgrade option
Now i have no problem with +5 points for a melta or flamer, except that storms pay +6, so maybe that should be the set price.
Also i think it would be nice to include the option to upgrade to a melta/flamer/power weapon per 3 models, adding some punch in CC to support Nuadhu's preferance for breaking face.
I'd also rework it as i feel jetbikes would have more options than just the shurican cannon were we to redo them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think a big issue is that we havent looked at GJB's yet. If we reviewed them as a unit then it might be easier to assess what sort of bonus Nuadhu should grant.

Maybe looking into them, shining spears and Vypers would be a good course of action?

GJB

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
3 3 3 3(4) 1 4 1 8 4+

3-10
1 in 3 can take a heavy weapon at x points each
may be joined by a warlock at x points
May take a CCW and pistol for x points each

GJB units are nimble, able to accelerate at break neck speeds in an instant, swerve to avoid incoming fire with a simple thought, or adjust ones height to avoid incoming blows. As such all GJB models recieve a 6++ invun save.

----------

Spears

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3(4) 1 5 1 9 3+
5 5 3 3(4) 2 6 2 10 3+

3-5
skilled riders - USR
swift assault - +2 attacks on the charge
laser lance - As is, AP2
star lance - As is, AP2

withdraw - As is
Plough through - The unit may attack any unit it moves over in the movement phase, even when turbo-boosting. Each member of the unit makes one attack rolling against the targets WS. The spears are then free to continue their turn as normal, ie, move over a unit, inflict damage, then shoot/charge the same, or another unit.

----------

Vypers
Drop in 10 points, add flickerfield rip off

----------

Thats my 5 minute quick fix! Now someone else can make ir work =D

@ Shining spears - We had some discussion waaaaaay back in the old thread about them and (I think) there were a coupe of suggestions along the lines of:

Hold the charge: a unit of shining spears can be held in reserve but doesnt take reserve roll's, it can simply move onto the board during whichever movement phase the controling player wants. (something like that)

I like the idea of making them into CC jetbikes, whilst GJB's take a more shooty jetbike role. Maybe a 6" melta shot from the lance? Make them into transport killers that then assault the unit inside before hit and running or MC hunters.

@GJB's

I think giving them heavy weapons is a bad idea, keeping the shuriken cannon isnt a problem, but opening it up to all heavy weapons might make vypers suffer.

@Vypers/Warwalkers

Ive suggested it a couple times, but I think splitting the heavy weapons between these two will help make vypers more useful. If EML's, Brightances, Starcannons ect were only available on a vyper and shuriken cannons and scatter lasers ect we warwalker only options they would both have different roles. Give warwalkers outflank and anti infantry guns and give scout and anti armour weapons to the vypers.

Gorechild wrote:@ Shining spears - We had some discussion waaaaaay back in the old thread about them and (I think) there were a coupe of suggestions along the lines of:

Hold the charge: a unit of shining spears can be held in reserve but doesnt take reserve roll's, it can simply move onto the board during whichever movement phase the controling player wants. (something like that)

I like the idea of making them into CC jetbikes, whilst GJB's take a more shooty jetbike role. Maybe a 6" melta shot from the lance? Make them into transport killers that then assault the unit inside before hit and running or MC hunters.
I remember the old discussions, not sure if iwas just watching or posting back then... I like hold the line, but being able to come on when you choose always seemed a bit powerfull, perhaps simply a re-roll, combine that with an autrachs proposed +/- 1 to reserves and its more of less when you choose if the dice are in your favour.

The melta idea has merits, but then why take FD when you can get FD on bikes with power weapons?

@GJB's

I think giving them heavy weapons is a bad idea, keeping the shuriken cannon isnt a problem, but opening it up to all heavy weapons might make vypers suffer.
I find the cannon a bit of a waste, 10 points and BS:3 means you wont be getting many hits, the TL-shcats seem a better option if you intend on getting close. I personally see no problem with being able to have a scatter laser or starcannon mounted on a jetbike, a BL might be pushing it, but you would be paying for the ability to JSJ with it.

@Vypers/Warwalkers

Ive suggested it a couple times, but I think splitting the heavy weapons between these two will help make vypers more useful. If EML's, Brightances, Starcannons ect were only available on a vyper and shuriken cannons and scatter lasers ect we warwalker only options they would both have different roles. Give warwalkers outflank and anti infantry guns and give scout and anti armour weapons to the vypers.
It could work, but i don't remember the last time i saw walkers that wern't equipped with anti infantry guns anyway... As for vypers, i find them useful as is, the only downside is cost, which, next to the venom with its 5++, 12 possible shots and transport capacity, is a complete joke.

dayve110 wrote:

Gorechild wrote: @ Shining spears - We had some discussion waaaaaay back in the old thread about them and (I think) there were a coupe of suggestions along the lines of:

Hold the charge: a unit of shining spears can be held in reserve but doesnt take reserve roll's, it can simply move onto the board during whichever movement phase the controling player wants. (something like that)

I like the idea of making them into CC jetbikes, whilst GJB's take a more shooty jetbike role. Maybe a 6" melta shot from the lance? Make them into transport killers that then assault the unit inside before hit and running or MC hunters.
I remember the old discussions, not sure if iwas just watching or posting back then... I like hold the line, but being able to come on when you choose always seemed a bit powerfull, perhaps simply a re-roll, combine that with an autrachs proposed +/- 1 to reserves and its more of less when you choose if the dice are in your favour.

The melta idea has merits, but then why take FD when you can get FD on bikes with power weapons?

The pro's for fire dragons would be: AP1, lots cheaper, grenades. also....I didn't say anything about power weapons for the SS's

dayve110 wrote:

Gorechild wrote:
@GJB's

I think giving them heavy weapons is a bad idea, keeping the shuriken cannon isnt a problem, but opening it up to all heavy weapons might make vypers suffer.
I find the cannon a bit of a waste, 10 points and BS:3 means you wont be getting many hits, the TL-shcats seem a better option if you intend on getting close. I personally see no problem with being able to have a scatter laser or starcannon mounted on a jetbike, a BL might be pushing it, but you would be paying for the ability to JSJ with it.

I may be wrong (I never pay with bikes or against them really), but I believe the Shuriken cannon upgrade is almost aways used, so it must have its merits. I think their roles would overlap too much with vypers if they had access to the heavy weapons and possibly fusion guns and flamers as well, I wouldnt see any reason to take Vypers if you could do all the same things on jetbikes because the jetbikes can jsj.

dayve110 wrote:

Gorechild wrote:
@Vypers/Warwalkers

Ive suggested it a couple times, but I think splitting the heavy weapons between these two will help make vypers more useful. If EML's, Brightances, Starcannons ect were only available on a vyper and shuriken cannons and scatter lasers ect we warwalker only options they would both have different roles. Give warwalkers outflank and anti infantry guns and give scout and anti armour weapons to the vypers.
It could work, but i don't remember the last time i saw walkers that wern't equipped with anti infantry guns anyway... As for vypers, i find them useful as is, the only downside is cost, which, next to the venom with its 5++, 12 possible shots and transport capacity, is a complete joke.

Agreed, I do think that removing the vypers access to the anti infantry weapons would make them more defined, without really having any effect on WWalkers though.

Vypers and War Walkers are two vastly different units catering to different kinds of armies altogether, and splitting them apart on the simple reason that they share the same weapon options would be detrimental to the army in my opinion.
One is fast with less attack power and the other is slow with more attack power.

A better way is to analyse the problems with them and address those.

For War Walker I see mostly that Bright Lances and Star Cannons are too expensive and they are in a detrimental FOC slot.
For Vypers they are too fragile with open-topped, a bit too expensive even after that by about 5-10 points.

What you trade is a second heavy weapon for a less-expensive (hull + 1 weapon) Vyper that can move +6" before shooting or up to +18" extra without shooting for extra protection.

That said, the FW Hornet is much more interesting, offering more value for the points and more tactical difference over the Vyper.

Joining back into the dicussion...

What if Vypers were turned into Venom-like transports for 6 aspect warriors? They're already open-topped, so that's settled. Give them an invulnerable 5+ and TL the upper weapon.

I'd definitely put some scorpions in there and zoom them across the board to assault some small, troublesome unit like IG HWS, Ork Lootas or SW Long fangs. Alternatively, they could be used by FDs to shoot their meltas out of the Vyper, instead of having to disembark.

If GW hornets come out, then I see no application for Vypers in their current form at all anymore. For 135 points you get an AV11 11 10 with 2 Pulse lasers with Scout USR. That's 4 S8 AP2 shots right there. I'd use a squadron of these following the Wave Serpent around being guided by a Farseer inside, wiping anything they shoot at from the board.

For GJB and SS, I think GJB are fine as is, giving them the option of CCWs and flamer/melta is a nice idea, I wouldn't mind that at all(we could make an assault Saim-Hann army. What's not to like?). And as for SS, +2 attacks on the charge and the idea of them running through one squad while assaulting another sounds really fun to me.

@ Araenion - whilst I think Vypers are somewhat...lacking, I don't think copying DE is really the solution. They need a special something to make them a competitive option again. Turning them into a transport would require a complete change in fluff and the model. I don't really see the craftworlders as a "cling onto the outside of a tiny vehicle and scream across the battlefield" sort of race like the DE, I think they'd be a little more restrained.

re. GJB's - The CCW, Flamer and melta options could be inked to the Saim Han SC we were just discussing. Do you think that could help make a more themed army?

@Mahtamori - If Hornets were included then (as Araenion said) I see no point in using vypers. I'd suggest either counting hornets out, or changing the Vypers to be considerably cheaper so they could be viable at a lower point level (maybe have buillt in holo-fields?).

Aspects maybe not, but Harlequins are just the kind of race that'd do stuff like that. Maybe Vypers can be Harlequin-only transport choice? Hell, I don't know, but right now I think they're really only still used because players have found a use for them in spite, not because, of their profile. Besides, Land Speeder Storm has a transport capacity and space marines are hardly bloodthirsty and feral like DE.

Other idea I have for Vypers is that they lose their vehicle profile and become proper heavy jetbikes. With a profile along the lines of:

WS BS S T W I A ld Sv
4--4---3 5 2 4 1 9 3+

Unit type: Eldar jetbike, 1-3

Wargear:

- TL shuriken catapults(upgradeable to SC), must also take one of the following: shuriken cannon, scatterlaser or starcannon

- Holofields: built into the wraithbone hull of this massive jetbike is a similar techonology that exists in Eldar tanks, providing the Vyper jetbike with a 5+ invulnerable save

Additionaly, vypers can be a 0-1 upgrade option for a GJB squad, provided there are already 3 or more jetbikes in the squad.

How does that sound?

I'm not too sure about using them as an upgrade for a jetbike squadron, they are already be able to have a Warlock. They'd be lowered to T4 most of the time anway.

I like the heavy jetbike option though. What make you decide on the shuriken cannon, scatterlaser or starcannon options?

Simple really, because it felt wrong having EML and Brightlance on it. I thought of adding a heavy flamer and firepike options too. A 18-24" melta on this would be nice to have. Feel free to tweak my idea to your liking, I myself just thought of this and I didn't consider it thoroughly.

I do like the idea of a venom like vehicle, would definately help assault troops like banshees and Harleys

But it shouldn't be the Vyper, The Vyper I like as a Heavy Jetbike, heck then we could satisfy both parties and put Nuhadu on a Vyper

For the Venom thing we need something like a cross between the original Vyper and the Wave Serpent, with a heavy weapon and a small troop capacity. Meanwhile Hornets can be the faster more exspensive version of the War Walker (though I'm fine if they don't make the cut)

I've aired the idea of Vypers becoming jetbikes before, but I think people misunderstood me back then and thought I suggested them as upgrades as well.

The benefit of having them as jetbikes (doesn't even need to be heavy jetbikes) is that they have two pilots and as such will not lose on fire power if they upgrade the under-slung weapon to a Shuriken Cannon - a current Vyper or a Hornet must reduce speed to 6" in order to fire both weapons.

Now, I would personally prefer them to be the same old jetbikes at T3(4), since that would mean two things; lower price and you have to use them with the JSJ more carefully.

It's all about the challenge, not filling in all the drawbacks and leaving only the benefits (you've got one or two Space Marine chapters you can play if you want that).

P.S. The goal should be to make Vypers and Nuadhu compatible, but rather make Nuadhu compatible with Shining Spears - just about the only unit where it'd make sense putting him.

Just a few ideas:
- Phoenix Lords give players access to squads of their Aspect as Troops or at least makes them Scoring.
- Phoenix Lords also get an invulnerable save.
- Vehicles (or at least the Falcon) become BS 4.
- War Walkers become Elites (maybe; depends on the rest of the codex balance.)
- Guardian Defenders may take 1 platform for every 10 guardians rather than 1 regardless. Allow Guardians to appear in larger squads (10-30 maybe?)
- Defender Shuriken Catapults are range 15" or something; less than the Avenger catapults, but more than 12".
- Price Decreases on almost everything (except for Fire Dragons, Warlocks, and Farseers). Anything with a substantial upgrade/change would have to be revalued accordingly, though.
- Swooping Hawk Lasblasters are either Assault 3, or Swooping Hawks become WAY cheaper.
- Give Wave Serpents assault ramps or some upgrade that lets models assault after the transport has moved. AFAIK that was supposed to be how it worked originally but wasn't an issue in 4th edition.
- Give Psychers the edge vs. Space Wolves and Blood Angels again (maybe let some upgrade force then enemy to reroll success blockages of a power or let you reroll vs. a psychic hood. Something like that).