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Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

 Ideasweasel wrote:
My hope is the faction doesn’t burn for lucius’s sins

If skittles go shooting it in points and turn to ash because of the solar flare ima be sad

Is 20 rangers in graia or agripinaa a problem

Nope

I’m in team #blameLucius

Yeah Lucius can get much of the blame, the faction traits are just too good, and the relic + warlord trait are bonkers as well. The problem is Lucius' traits are good in all situations, it's a blanket bonus. Mars has the same but it's much more balanced, first because Canticles have to be decided for the whole army, and then because the reroll is per unit, so it's limited. All the other traits happen under conditions (having charged, being half-range, shooting with Assault weapons, etc.).

My problem with Lucius is that it's evidently too good when, whenever I'm writing a list, every battle plan is improved by using Lucius. Pteraxii ? Why, a +1 save and 15" flamers are pretty swell. Fist Bots ? Solar Flare is really convenient. Radium Rumba ? Eeeh you know that +3" and +1 save... You catched my drift. Only Ironstriders seem to not benefit much from it, or Kataphrons.

Though I don't know what I would change to balance it. Maybe change the Solar Flare to only work under a certain unit size ? Teleporting a unit of 10 Corpuscarii is less frightful than 20.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






Yes, Lucius is the easiest Forge World to have success with because it provides durability at no cost and allows the player to punch first with units teleporting or deep striking. The solar flare is not broken because Necrons have the exact same thing, hell even marines with 2 devastator squads sharing a drop pod can accomplish similar results. Nerfing t 3 4+ potentially 3+ save models doesn't make sense. It's like saying battle sisters are too durable. One unit will have transhuman on it but the opponent knows which unit so they can choose to shoot something else. The units that deep strike in due to the Lucius stratagem will not benefit from abilities such as transhuman, +1 ap, or turning -1 or -2 into ap 0 because it happens in the command phase.

I think Lucius has competition Mars mortal wound stratagem is great, Ryza is great, I think Stygies provides the greatest alpha strike potential allowing you to put vanguard or rangers in the perfect position with their stratagem.

I don't see anything to nerf.

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Lucius is strong because it's ridiculously durable and has the best beta strike capability in the game, which makes it obscenely consistent because you are going to be hitting them really hard regardless of whether you're going first or second.

Mars and Metalica are also very strong. They definitely hit harder than Lucius, but they are less competitive in this meta. I made a ton of lists the week after the codecci was spoiled, and it became super obvious to me that it's hard to say no to Lucius. Mars is definitely the competitive Budgethammer option, since it can run dual Ferrumite Disintegrators or Icarus Dunecrawlers (yes, those are the two options).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Aaranis wrote:
Jeez Pteraxii are ENORMOUS. Only built one so far but I'm glad I only bought one box, a unit of 10 might be hard to place. Or transport.

IMO, they are still best with Mars. Being able to drop in and Wrath, instantly making back their points, is what makes them valuable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/10 04:32:53


 
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






https://youtu.be/MuHxvOixw-k

Link above is the new supplement with skitarii cohort review

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/10 09:57:05


 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

https://www.goonhammer.com/war-zone-charadon-the-book-of-fire-review-imperium/

The review from Goonhammer

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
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Aspirant Tech-Adept






Even better lol
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune







Well... I got a bucket of salt from non-AdMech players anyone want it?

Praise the Omnissiah

About 4k of .

Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)

Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...

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5++ for free what the feth?

Orks 5000p 
   
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Pretty sure you pay 2 points-per-model for that and a couple other things, no free about it. I'm going to give the Skitarii veterans a pass.
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

I think there's lots of gold options in there. Yes essentially all our Skitarii Rangers and Vanguards are 10 ppm but they've got a 5++, +1 A and +1 Ld. We have a costly stratagem to have +1 to Wound with two units on a single target, one to give +1A to charging attacks (hello Dragoons and Sicarians), a 5+ FNP on a unit that's about to lose a wound for a full phase, and one to advance and charge.

These open a LOT MORE of synergies and buffs for Ryza it's amazing. Dragoons that advance and charge can make a reliable T1 charge with Ryza and their +1" charge. Ruststalkers or Infiltrators can have +2 attacks with the base stratagem and this new one.

I like it a lot and will probably be trying this out, maybe as soon as Saturday if my opponents agree.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






bmsattler wrote:
Pretty sure you pay 2 points-per-model for that and a couple other things, no free about it. I'm going to give the Skitarii veterans a pass.


You're also locked out of a 2nd manipulus which means no 2 units can get the range or ap ever. Which is very significant even without stacking.
The +1 A on Vanguard and Rangers is mostly irrelevant
The +1 Ld is a nice boon
but the real meat and pretty much only reason that justifies the price is the 5++.
2 pts doesnt sound much, but it adds up very, very quickly. I guess a 2k list pays roundabout 200pts for that.

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 Aaranis wrote:
These open a LOT MORE of synergies and buffs for Ryza it's amazing. Dragoons that advance and charge can make a reliable T1 charge with Ryza and their +1" charge. Ruststalkers or Infiltrators can have +2 attacks with the base stratagem and this new one.

I like it a lot and will probably be trying this out, maybe as soon as Saturday if my opponents agree.


I agree, I think Ryza benefits the most because of the +1 attack and 5++. Lucius was already getting a 5+ or better from things like Intercessor's bolter fire, now other Forge Worlds can pay to have similar durability. Ryza vanguard can punch hard 41 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's vs marines with re-roll's to hit and wound with proper buff usage. 20 extra attacks, 5++, and immunity to blast weapons is worth 40 points in my opinion. It is also a fair trade-off 40 points is an entire squad, only 1 manipulus hurt's damage output so I can't see other factions complaining too much.

Toughness 3 models will hate Ryza vet vanguard in cc, charge me I am wounding you on 2's.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/11 17:46:06


   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

 CKO wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
These open a LOT MORE of synergies and buffs for Ryza it's amazing. Dragoons that advance and charge can make a reliable T1 charge with Ryza and their +1" charge. Ruststalkers or Infiltrators can have +2 attacks with the base stratagem and this new one.

I like it a lot and will probably be trying this out, maybe as soon as Saturday if my opponents agree.


I agree, I think Ryza benefits the most because of the +1 attack and 5++. Lucius was already getting a 5+ or better from things like Intercessor's bolter fire, now other Forge Worlds can pay to have similar durability. Ryza vanguard can punch hard 41 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's vs marines with re-roll's to hit and wound with proper buff usage. 20 extra attacks, 5++, and immunity to blast weapons is worth 40 points in my opinion. It is also a fair trade-off 40 points is an entire squad, only 1 manipulus hurt's damage output so I can't see other factions complaining too much.

Toughness 3 models will hate Ryza vet vanguard in cc, charge me I am wounding you on 2's.

Yeah all they need is a bit of AP in CC to be truely threatening against MEQ. Though I'm wondering if I should still worry about MEQ so much in my meta, I think there's a lot of everything so I should think more about TAC lists. Marines are not the great boogiemen anymore. Sisters, AdMech, Drukhari, all of these are T3, maybe the new Orks will shake things up if the codex is good, T5 infantry means less efficient Rangers and more useful Vanguards.

The more I read the Skitarii Veteran Cohort rules the more I see it fitting on anything but Lucius. You really want to use the +1A you pay for and so use your infantry agressively, never hesitating to charge a unit to contest and finish it off on the charge. Might be worth it to add a Taser Goad to the Alpha ? 3-4 attacks at S6 AP-1, hitting on 4+/3+, it can add a bit of punch considering you'll wound everything on 3s or 2s if you play Ryza.

I think Rangers are not very desirable in this army though, paying an extra for troops that won't see close combat is a bit of a waste in my opinion. And Vanguards are encouraged to run in big units due to ignoring the Blast rule.

I'm going to start writing a list. I just hope these rules are here to stay all edition. Might make me arm swap one or two Alphas.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






You'll still need rangers.
Vanguard have no longer ranged firepower and falter if you dont give them enriched rounds and/or manipulus support. And especially the latter will be rare.
If taken in MSU, rangers are superior as they are nice to hold objectives and are still quite durable with their auto-cover. Stick in an Arquebus and you have a somewhat durable, somewhat cheap unit that can perform actions in your backfield and has some firepower, especially with Mars.
Yes, they dont gain much from the +1 A, but LD 8 base makes them all but immune to attrition which is an issue with blobs.

I still think one big blob of Vanguard is desireable, maybe a few MSU ones, but about the same amount in models in rangers as MSU is almost required.
Vanguards are not a melee unit in the first place, but a good supporting unit if an actual melee unit makes contact as well. That has always been their role imo.

For obvious reasons I have the Skitarii Veteran Cohort available and my current 1500 pts list that I plan to run has 1 Vanguard blob, 4 MSU rangers with Arquebi to reach out and touch stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/11 19:03:32


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Mysterious Techpriest






So a more general question...
How do you guys handle expected assault armies in list building?
E.g. how many counter charge threats do you put in? How many screening units? What are those?

Cause currently I play a lot against SWs and its tough keeping them away with all the melee threats they get and the prevalence of obscuring terrain and limited overwatches.

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 Thairne wrote:
So a more general question...
How do you guys handle expected assault armies in list building?
E.g. how many counter charge threats do you put in? How many screening units? What are those?

Cause currently I play a lot against SWs and its tough keeping them away with all the melee threats they get and the prevalence of obscuring terrain and limited overwatches.


personally I am trying out 2x5 Hydro/Arc Breachers, 3 Dragoons, and some Rusties/Infiltrators as my melee force, I am also using 5-man skitarii squads (2 minimum) as screens if needed (note I still have 1 blob of 20 skitarii choice of which varies - but prefering the rangers). but I am not trying to go for tournaments here.

I only have 20 rangers & 20 vanguard without specials and I am not planning on getting more as I prefer the Cult Mech stuff anyways, this also mostly excludes me from running the veteran cohort AoR except in smaller games though due to lack of models.

Praise the Omnissiah

About 4k of .

Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)

Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...

About 2k of  
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






thats half a list in 2k - interesting.
I dont intend to run tournaments either, just gauging how much melee I need to not get run over T2.

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The other half is a fusilave, a couple of onagers, some HQ's, 4 Ironstriders, and some pteraxii/serberys.

I have found on smaller boards in 9th Melee is really useful to have. the 10 Breachers can also double up as anti-vehicle, and the Infiltrators can double up as scouting units/CA for backfield objectives/secondaries etc. too.

as I said, it may not be ultra-competative, but plenty enough for a FLGS especially as I run Lucius (and have done since before Engine War...)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/12 20:57:18


Praise the Omnissiah

About 4k of .

Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)

Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...

About 2k of  
   
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Mira Mesa

I've kind of run into the opposite problem. I've been playing the local shop's Crusade league, which plays 1000pts (50 PL) on a full 60x44 table. I've been undefeated, and it's almost always a tabling or concession on turn 3. I'm speed painting an Eldar army for the next league to give them a break. Similar to the 1500-2000pt lists I've advocated, I've been running this:
Spoiler:
50PL, 16 Crusade Points
Forgeworld Metalica Patrol
Manipulus, Holy Order Logos [Anzion's Pseudogenetor; Masterwork Bionics; Laurels of Victory, Artisan Bionics, a literal freaking portal gun (Teleportation Matrix Digital Cannon)]
20 Vanguard, Datatether, Omnispex [Firepoint Telemetry Cache; 5++, 6+++]
5 Rangers, Arquebus [Multitasking Cortex]
Dunecrawler, Icarus, Stubber [re-roll 1s]
Dunecrawler, Neutron, 2 Stubbers [re-roll 1s]

House Raven Superheavy Auxiliary [Knights of the Iron Cog]
3 Armiger Warglaives, Meltaguns [+1 regen per turn, re-rolls, move speed, etc.]
I wasn't trying to crush their souls with this list, it was just the models I had to make a fully painted army. The principle culprits have been the Warglaives; they're hard to deal with at 1000pts, and the addition of canticles push them so far over the edge. I wanted to include some Infiltrators, some Raiders, and maybe a Fusilave, but my motivation dried up a bit. I don't want to be 'that guy', even if I'm running something relatively off meta.

My point is, you really don't need to worry too much about being competitive; you could put most units in the book together and end up with something decent.

I agree with Forgemaster's assessment, personally I run half my army as Knights and still include Raiders and Infiltrators. More than half my army can hold its own in melee.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 00:14:29


Coordinator for San Diego At Ease Games' Crusade League. Full 9 week mission packets and league rules available: Lon'dan System Campaign.
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





 Thairne wrote:
So a more general question...
How do you guys handle expected assault armies in list building?
E.g. how many counter charge threats do you put in? How many screening units? What are those?

Cause currently I play a lot against SWs and its tough keeping them away with all the melee threats they get and the prevalence of obscuring terrain and limited overwatches.


My main opponents are SW and DA. for SW I've found dragoons to be great to get the charge first and help dictate the fight a little more and then blow them up to deal extra damage. For other things Bombers have been great, two bomb one squad to weaken it so i's less scary when it gets in and then use the slow down bomb on another squad to slow them down.

I've only played 1000pts at 9th but thats 3 key melee threats weakened and at that size game its a huge deal, its not perfect but it helps.

Approx armies
9000pts AdMech (Main army)
7000pts Black Templars (original army)
3500pts Death Guard (lazy side project)
2000pts Imperial Knights (extension of AdMech)
2000pts Harlequins (fun side project)
 
   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






 DarkHound wrote:
I've kind of run into the opposite problem. I've been playing the local shop's Crusade league, which plays 1000pts (50 PL) on a full 60x44 table. I've been undefeated, and it's almost always a tabling or concession on turn 3. I'm speed painting an Eldar army for the next league to give them a break. Similar to the 1500-2000pt lists I've advocated, I've been running this:
Spoiler:
50PL, 16 Crusade Points
Forgeworld Metalica Patrol
Manipulus, Holy Order Logos [Anzion's Pseudogenetor; Masterwork Bionics; Laurels of Victory, Artisan Bionics, a literal freaking portal gun (Teleportation Matrix Digital Cannon)]
20 Vanguard, Datatether, Omnispex [Firepoint Telemetry Cache; 5++, 6+++]
5 Rangers, Arquebus [Multitasking Cortex]
Dunecrawler, Icarus, Stubber [re-roll 1s]
Dunecrawler, Neutron, 2 Stubbers [re-roll 1s]

House Raven Superheavy Auxiliary [Knights of the Iron Cog]
3 Armiger Warglaives, Meltaguns [+1 regen per turn, re-rolls, move speed, etc.]
I wasn't trying to crush their souls with this list, it was just the models I had to make a fully painted army. The principle culprits have been the Warglaives; they're hard to deal with at 1000pts, and the addition of canticles push them so far over the edge. I wanted to include some Infiltrators, some Raiders, and maybe a Fusilave, but my motivation dried up a bit. I don't want to be 'that guy', even if I'm running something relatively off meta.

My point is, you really don't need to worry too much about being competitive; you could put most units in the book together and end up with something decent.

I agree with Forgemaster's assessment, personally I run half my army as Knights and still include Raiders and Infiltrators. More than half my army can hold its own in melee.


I think the real soul crushing was the FAQ that nerfed nothing. Keep your ad mech at home until they get the druk "point increase treatment". I really hope my orks are not the next soul crushing army out there, and hope they get the sista treatment and not the ad mech / druk treatment.
To all of you ad mech players feeling like they are That Guy when they effortlessly win turn 2 or 3, I sympathise. Ad mech has a cool concept for rules and great models, it truely is a shame they are so OP !

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Are they though?

Am I looking at the wrong tournament stats. Top 4, bestcoast pairings etc

All I see is Lucius lists lighting things up. I don’t see anything else being oppressive

I’ll go back and have another look in case I missed anything


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*update

Apologies 1 Mars win with a load of pteraxii

I’m not sure if this was pre or post faq about booster thrust but it’s nice to see a non Lucius win.

I still maintain it’s a Lucius problem not an admech as a whole problem

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 13:04:17


 
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






yeah I kinda agree - and then its a high skill floor, high skill ceiling thing.
I built the nastiest 1k Lucius list I can manage and played SW on Sunday - ended up 65/72.
No way near a Turn 2 or 3 table, it was a almost completely even matched game until the end.
So either I'm very bad, which in this case I dont think I was, or its the truth that admech is a codex with a lot of cogs and wheels, but you really have to keep the sand away for it to consistently click. Its rather hard to play good with this and mistakes punish you.
Naturally, experienced tournament players get the most out of it while we casual games dont get the same power out of it - which is worrying if nerfs come home.

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Admech gets so overblown by the community its not even funny. They arent nearly on drukhari level and then bringing up sisters who were 2-4% under their winrate for the first month without even morven vahl is funny
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






It’s an interesting social experiment in group think.

Because the admech hatred in my gaming circle started about 3 weeks before the codex dropped.

I’d even ask someone so how many games have you played with or against (0)

Any logical attempts at discourse were rejected for hysteria and hyperbole. Some people make their mind up regardless of the facts

“Admech have always been great” when I challenged that with ‘mediocre pre engine war’ the response was well admech players just must be bad lol

Or as I like to say. Let’s not let facts get in the way of a good story!
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Main problem is that all those powerful abilities are usually seen on optimal circumstances.
Therefore they make a far better impression than reality does.
Someone today on the discord was like
"1+/5++/5+++ Ignore AP 1/2, Transhuman Skitarii that auto wound on a hitroll of 4? Can they really be so broken?"

Well, yes. But you need to invest a LOT. And it leaves the rest of your army pretty barren to protect... 8 pts models.
If you read the above tho, you'll get mad. rightly so. But only if you ignore what needs to be done to get ONE unit on that level.

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One thing that made me pause was the art of war folks declaring fusilaves ‘dead’

To my mind they are fantastic not only in the mirror match but with sisters drukhari and orks all useful targets one would think they have some play
   
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Stalwart Tribune





 Ideasweasel wrote:
One thing that made me pause was the art of war folks declaring fusilaves ‘dead’

To my mind they are fantastic not only in the mirror match but with sisters drukhari and orks all useful targets one would think they have some play


I guess I can see their thinking - in mirror matches striders can take them down fairly easily, as they are rather large and are tricky to hide... but they are also really useful too. I will be taking one in most of my listsa now anyways (a replacement for a Skorpius for non-LOS targets mainly)

Praise the Omnissiah

About 4k of .

Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)

Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...

About 2k of  
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





 DarkHound wrote:
I've kind of run into the opposite problem. I've been playing the local shop's Crusade league, which plays 1000pts (50 PL) on a full 60x44 table. I've been undefeated, and it's almost always a tabling or concession on turn 3. I'm speed painting an Eldar army for the next league to give them a break. Similar to the 1500-2000pt lists I've advocated, I've been running this:
Spoiler:
50PL, 16 Crusade Points
Forgeworld Metalica Patrol
Manipulus, Holy Order Logos [Anzion's Pseudogenetor; Masterwork Bionics; Laurels of Victory, Artisan Bionics, a literal freaking portal gun (Teleportation Matrix Digital Cannon)]
20 Vanguard, Datatether, Omnispex [Firepoint Telemetry Cache; 5++, 6+++]
5 Rangers, Arquebus [Multitasking Cortex]
Dunecrawler, Icarus, Stubber [re-roll 1s]
Dunecrawler, Neutron, 2 Stubbers [re-roll 1s]

House Raven Superheavy Auxiliary [Knights of the Iron Cog]
3 Armiger Warglaives, Meltaguns [+1 regen per turn, re-rolls, move speed, etc.]
I wasn't trying to crush their souls with this list, it was just the models I had to make a fully painted army. The principle culprits have been the Warglaives; they're hard to deal with at 1000pts, and the addition of canticles push them so far over the edge. I wanted to include some Infiltrators, some Raiders, and maybe a Fusilave, but my motivation dried up a bit. I don't want to be 'that guy', even if I'm running something relatively off meta.

My point is, you really don't need to worry too much about being competitive; you could put most units in the book together and end up with something decent.

I agree with Forgemaster's assessment, personally I run half my army as Knights and still include Raiders and Infiltrators. More than half my army can hold its own in melee.


Just tracking back a bit to this. What i've seen in lists is that at 2k points you push your list over a certain threshold that allows you to cover just about any threat and achieve just about any scenario. 1000-1500 is just not quite enough to reach that point. 1000 is pretty much, you have one plan and a medicore backup and you cant afford to buff that one unit into oblivion because you dont have the support to back it up. 1500 is borderline, you can have your uber unit but all you're really doing is doubling down on what you had at 1000. At 2000 that extra 500 is the straw that breaks the camels back balance wise imo. Its 500 points of 'extra' our army is pretty cheap points wise so we've just about covered all bases at 1500, we can choose to make them better at 2k or just add distractions and/or create a second backup uber unit.

Other factions are expensive, at 1500 they're just about reaching what we manage at 1500 utility and objective wise, at 2k they're comfortable. ALl the lesser aspects we used to have arent really there in lucious, we're all over durable, still shoot well, have invulns out the wazoo, above average melee and all the tricks to get them into combat and extra special weapons that give us an edge. We're overall really good, but at 2k we have the opportunity to go crazy.
   
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Northumberland

How is the breachers v destroyers thing going? I know that destroyers got a little better and slightly more viable but am I right in thinking breachers are still the better choice?

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
# Olthannon's Oscillating Orchard of Opportunity #

 
   
 
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