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Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Thought so. Just wanted a sanity check.

I'm dumb. Forgot about Rule of Three:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1539

HQ - 150
Tech-Priest Manipulus - Logi (35), Raiment of the Technomartyr (-1 CP)
Skitarii Marshal - Warlord: Firepoint Telemetry Cache, Exemplar's Eternity

Troop - 510
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex

Elite - 170
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad

Fast Attack - 449
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether
2x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 2x Twin Cognis Lascannon
2x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 2x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Flyer - 260
1x Archaeopter Fusilave
1x Archaeopter Fusilave

Mars Patrol Detachment - 460 (-2 CP)

HQ - 80
Technoarchaeologist - Artisans (25)

Troop - 80
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard

Fast Attack - 300
2x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 2x Twin Cognis Lascannon
2x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 2x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Total: 1999 points
9 CP

I will consider the Veterans. It is quite a few points I'd be adding in. Might go down to two Ranger units. But I am up to 9 CP, which makes me a lot more comfortable about getting some more toys.
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

Aren't you still hitting the rule of 3 with that list? It's 3 per army, not per detachment. Honestly, you could just go 2x3 and condense the army, saving 2 more CP. Spend the points saved from dropping the 2 Ironstriders to upgrade all the infantry to veterans.

I think the optimal version is still a Lucius + Mars combo, like we've been seeing in all the tournaments. That helps justify the extra CP spent on detachments and lets you maximize your 3x2 Ironstrider spread. You just have to take a naked Marshall to lead the Spearhead, as the least bad option. Then the rest of the army in the Lucius Battalion can have the Manip, relic Marshall, and the Techno.

Spoiler:
Lucius Battalion Detachment

HQ
Tech-Priest Manipulus - Logi (35), Raiment of the Technomartyr (-1 CP)
Skitarii Marshal - Warlord: Firepoint Telemetry Cache, Exemplar's Eternity
Technoarchaeologist - Artisans (25)

Troop
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex, Veterans
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex, Veterans
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex, Veterans
5x Skitarii Vanguard, Veterans
5x Skitarii Vanguard, Veterans

Elite
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad

Fast Attack
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether

Flyer - 260
1x Archaeopter Fusilave
1x Archaeopter Fusilave

Mars Spearhead Detachment (-3 CP)

HQ
Skitarii Marshal

Fast Attack
2x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 2x Twin Cognis Lascannon
2x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 2x Twin Cognis Lascannon
2x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 2x Twin Cognis Lascannon
Something shaped like that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 04:05:26


   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






@DarkHound
Dammit. I lost the ability to count or something.

I want Raiders in a Mars list. Being able to snipe characters with Wrath is shockingly good.

I don't think you can take Lucius and Mars in a Veteran Cohort:
All units in your army must be drawn from the same <FORGE WORLD>.

   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

Ooh, I see. Well, that's good for game balance. Yeah, then I think you have to go Veteran if you're going all Mars. From a hyper-competitive standpoint, I think you're leaving power on the table unless you're either Mars + Lucius or Mars/Lucius Veterans. I'm hearing some rumblings about Stygies Veterans, but I haven't seen a competitive Stygies list since the first round of tournaments. There was also the ~40 Lucius Siccarrian list that ran over a tournament recently, so Infiltrators will probably replace the bulk of the horde for non-Veteran armies.

All this being said, I did see an interesting top 4 finish with a Lucius Battalion and one House Raven Knight Crusader (taking +2 wound WLT and 2+ armor relic). Knight have been placing really well recently because AdMech hordes struggle against them and the Las chickens are often insufficient. Worth a consideration as a replacement for Fusilaves to supplement a lower number of chickens.

From my personal experience, a Crusader with the extra 2 wounds and regeneration is extremely difficult to finish off; it'll often out trade its threats and limp into the late game on Machine Spirit Resurgent and out-heal any remaining chip damage. I had a game where it ate 20 damage through its 4++, but regenerated and was repaired for 6 from the Manipulus (due my Metalica+Raven synergy), resulting in it staying at top bracket. Over the course of the game, it stayed in its top bracket despite receiving over 30 damage, with only one turn spent on Resurgent and one double repair.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 05:23:48


   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Well, this is an old list I made, only I added a Marshal and Veterans to it:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment

HQ - 250
Skitarii Marshal - Warlord: Firepoint Telemetry Cache, Exemplar's Eternity
Skitarii Marshal - Calculate Without Diversion (-1 CP), Cantic Thrallnet (-1 CP)
Tech-Priest Manipulus - Logi (35), Raiment of the Technomartyr (-1 CP)
Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 470
20x Skitarii Ranger Veterans - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex
20x Skitarii Ranger Veterans - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex
5x Skitarii Vanguard Veterans - Multitasking Cortex (-1 CP)

Elite - 170
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad

Fast Attack - 230
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array

Fast Attack - 599
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether
3x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 3x Twin Cognis Lascannon
3x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 3x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Flyer - 260
1x Archaeopter Fusilave
1x Archaeopter Fusilave

Total: 1979 points
8 CP

But I think I will go back to the drawing board on this one.

I have heard about Stygies, Ryza, and Radsat Veterans too, but I am not so sure now, especially with the Acquisition nerf.

Can I see that Raven list? I really want to run a Knight, and I have no idea where to begin. So many seeming suboptimalities right off the bat. But I too have been looking at the math of Magaeras and Crusaders, and they look very good. All of the Magaera's weapons deal 3 damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 06:43:01


 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

Sure, that was Robert Lloyd's list which took 4th at the Kent Wargames GT. Goonhammer covered it here.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Mechanicus) [77 PL, 10CP, 1,476pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Forge World Choice: Forge World: Lucius

+ Stratagems +

Stratagem: Archeotech Specialist [-1CP]: Archeotech Specialist

Stratagem: Artefactotum [-1CP]: Artefactotum

+ HQ +

Skitarii Marshal [3 PL, 45pts]: Relic: Exemplar’s Eternity

Tech-Priest Manipulus [6 PL, 105pts]: Logi, Magnarail lance, Relic (Lucius): The Solar Flare, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Lucius): Luminescent Blessings

+ Troops +

Kataphron Breachers [6 PL, 105pts] . Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle

Kataphron Breachers [6 PL, 105pts] . Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle
. Kataphron Breacher: Arc Claw, Heavy Arc Rifle

Skitarii Rangers [8 PL, 180pts]: Enhanced Data-Tether, Omnispex
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 18x Skitarii Ranger: 18x Galvanic Rifle
. Skitarii Ranger (Arc Rifle): Arc Rifle

Skitarii Vanguards [8 PL, 170pts]: Enhanced Data-Tether, Omnispex
. 19x Skitarii Vanguard: 19x Radium Carbine
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards [8 PL, 170pts]: Enhanced Data-Tether, Omnispex
. 19x Skitarii Vanguard: 19x Radium Carbine
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

+ Elites +

Sicarian Infiltrators [8 PL, 136pts] . Infiltrator Princeps (Flechette/Taser)
. 7x Sicarian Infiltrator (Flechette/Taser): 7x Flechette Blaster, 7x Taser Goad

+ Fast Attack +

Ironstrider Ballistarii [16 PL, 300pts] . Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon

Serberys Raiders [4 PL, 80pts]: Serberys Raider Alpha
. 4x Serberys Raider: 4x Cavalry Sabre, 4x Clawed Limbs, 4x Galvanic Carbine

Serberys Raiders [4 PL, 80pts]: Serberys Raider Alpha
. 4x Serberys Raider: 4x Cavalry Sabre, 4x Clawed Limbs, 4x Galvanic Carbine

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Imperium – Imperial Knights) [26 PL, -5CP, 520pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Raven

+ Stratagems +

Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait

Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom

+ Lord of War +

Knight Crusader [26 PL, 520pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord Trait (Raven): Blessed by Metalica
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber

++ Total: [103 PL, 5CP, 1,996pts] ++
I hadn't even noticed the Crusader went with the Battlecannon, and didn't even bother to take Metallica's significantly better relic version. It's certainly a list that doesn't look like it should work, and it really leans on the power of the Skitarii horde core. There are a lot of different directions it could go to adapt to the changes.

Wait, I just figured out the Battlecannon. It's a specific tech against Lucius hordes and it absolutely murders them. The new Raven strat Hammerblow makes it remain stationary, but gives full re-rolls with Blast weapons against units of 6+ models. This also applies to the Ironstorm Missilepod. All of its weapons skirt the Lucius bonus, and their combined fire averages 15.3 dead Skitarii. So, yeah, it deletes a Lucius block per turn and is virtually immovable.

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






@Darkhound
Fascinating list. I actually think Metalica can do it better. He may have left some tools on the table.

Funny, I was thinking of something like Hertel's take just now. Dropping the Veterans and bringing a more diverse Core toolkit:

Spoiler:
Mars Patrol Detachment - 1235

HQ - 150
Tech-Priest Manipulus - Logi (35), Raiment of the Technomartyr (-1 CP)
Skitarii Marshal - Warlord: Firepoint Telemetry Cache, Exemplar's Eternity

Troop - 110
5x Skitarii Vanguard Veterans, Enhanced Data-tether
5x Skitarii Vanguard Veterans, Enhanced Data-tether

Transport - 95
1x Skorpius Dunerider

Elite - 170
10 Sicarian Ruststalkers - Transonic Blades

Fast Attack - 450
3x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 3x Twin Cognis Lascannon
3x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 3x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Flyer - 260
1x Archaeopter Fusilave
1x Archaeopter Fusilave

Mars Patrol Detachment - 764 (-2 CP)

HQ - 45
Skitarii Marshal - Calculate Without Diversion (-1 CP), Cantic Thrallnet (-1 CP)

Troop - 210
20x Skitarii Ranger Veterans - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex

Elite - 170
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad

Fast Attack - 339
10x Pteraxii Sterylizors
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether

Total: 1999 points
7 CP

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 07:11:40


 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

It's interesting, in Lloyd's list the Crusader doesn't get much benefit from Canticles so Metallica is less important. The biggest benefit for Knights is Benediction on big melta weapons, which literally doubles their average damage. Secondarily, the extra advance and charge is handy but the Crusader is mostly forced to stand still. It turns out just to not be a great fit.

Your Mars veterans list seems really solid. I don't think there's much to improve on it. That's roughly the shape I expect competitive lists to take.

I'm at a weird impasse with my Metalica list. I think I'm going to keep my block of 20 Vanguard with the Manipulus because it's fluffy and fun, but if I wanted to go harder then I'd drop most of my infantry. I think this is the most disgusting I can make my list.
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP
House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280

Forgeworld Metalica Patrol [-2 CP]
Enginseer, 55
5 Infiltrators, Tasers, 85
5 Infiltrators, Tasers, 85
5 Rangers, 40
5 Raiders, 80
2 Ironstriders, Autocannons, 130
Dunecrawler, Twin Heavy Phosphor, 115
Dunecrawler, Twin Heavy Phosphor, 115
Fusilave, 130
Fusilave, 130
The Dunecrawlers and Ironstriders pick up the slack of mulching infantry from the absent Vanguard, while the Knights dominate any heavy armor. This kind of skew list would present hilarious problems for the current meta, similar to the top placing Knight lists. Nobody has the weapons to deal with it, and it's got guns for everybody. The worst match-ups might be ork hordes (we'll see if they even exist), but then the double whammy of Metalica+Fusilave movement restrictions kicks in and they become easy pickings for Pack Tactics Warglaives.

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






So he takes Sainted Ion and Blessed by Metalica, but not Canticles? Lol.

In any case, I am thinking Magaera (because it's the best Knight against AdMech), which can use more of the Canticles and is not as CP hungry. Wants to get stuck in, and Electromancer helps a lot.

Nice list. I actually have been thinking about this approach, but I have only 2 Warglaives and a ton of Chickens, so maybe this for me:

Spoiler:
Raven Knight Lance - 760
1x Questoris Knight Magaera - Knight of the Cog (-1 CP), Warlord: Blessed by Metalica, Armour of the Sainted Ion
1x Armiger Warglaive - Meltagun
1x Armiger Warglaive - Meltagun

Metalica Patrol Detachment - 1239 (-2 CP)

HQ - 150
Tech-Priest Manipulus - Logi (35)
Skitarii Marshal - Firepoint Telemetry Cache (-1 CP), Exemplar's Eternity (-1 CP)

Troop - 210
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex
5x Skitarii Vanguard

Elite - 170
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad

Fast Attack - 449
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether
4x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 4x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Flyer - 260
1x Archaeopter Fusilave
1x Archaeopter Fusilave

Total: 1999 points
7 CP

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 09:14:35


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm not seeing how the knight's RFBC is picking up Lucius infantry. It's AP2 and they ignore that. Unless they are ignoring that unit and shooting at the others?
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Salt Lake City

Here is my Metallica- Raven list im taking to my next major. I save CP by making the knight the warlord, but it's a trade because that takes admech relics and Warlord traits off the table.
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [39 PL, 9CP, 790pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Forge World Choice: Forge World: Metalica

+ Stratagems +

List Stratagems

+ Agents of the Imperium +

Inquisitor [4 PL, 65pts]: 6) Castigation, Chainsword, Flamer, Ordo Malleus, Psyker

+ HQ +

Skitarii Marshal [3 PL, 45pts]

Tech-Priest Dominus [4 PL, 75pts]: Macrostubber, Volkite Blaster

Tech-Priest Manipulus [6 PL, 105pts]: Logi, Magnarail lance

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers [2 PL, 55pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 3x Skitarii Ranger: 3x Galvanic Rifle
. Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [8 PL, 195pts]: Omnispex
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 17x Skitarii Ranger: 17x Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Vanguards [8 PL, 165pts]: Omnispex
. 19x Skitarii Vanguard: 19x Radium Carbine
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

+ Elites +

Sicarian Infiltrators [4 PL, 85pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps (Flechette/Taser)
. 4x Sicarian Infiltrator (Flechette/Taser): 4x Flechette Blaster, 4x Taser Goad

++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [61 PL, -3CP, 1,210pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Raven

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Warglaives [21 PL, -1CP, 420pts]: Knight of the Iron Cog
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun

Knight Moiraxes [16 PL, -1CP, 310pts]: Knight of the Iron Cog
. Knight Moirax: 2x Graviton Pulsar
. Knight Moirax: 2x Graviton Pulsar

Questoris Knight Magaera [24 PL, -1CP, 480pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom: The Helm Dominatus, Knight of the Iron Cog, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
. Hekaton Siege Claw and Twin Rad-Cleanser

++ Total: [100 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 15:48:09


 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

 Suzuteo wrote:
So he takes Sainted Ion and Blessed by Metalica, but not Canticles? Lol.

In any case, I am thinking Magaera (because it's the best Knight against AdMech), which can use more of the Canticles and is not as CP hungry. Wants to get stuck in, and Electromancer helps a lot.

Nice list. I actually have been thinking about this approach, but I have only 2 Warglaives and a ton of Chickens, so maybe this for me:

Spoiler:
Raven Knight Lance - 760
1x Questoris Knight Magaera - Knight of the Cog (-1 CP), Warlord: Blessed by Metalica, Armour of the Sainted Ion
1x Armiger Warglaive - Meltagun
1x Armiger Warglaive - Meltagun

Metalica Patrol Detachment - 1239 (-2 CP)

HQ - 150
Tech-Priest Manipulus - Logi (35)
Skitarii Marshal - Firepoint Telemetry Cache (-1 CP), Exemplar's Eternity (-1 CP)

Troop - 210
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex
5x Skitarii Vanguard

Elite - 170
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
5x Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad

Fast Attack - 449
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether
4x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 4x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Flyer - 260
1x Archaeopter Fusilave
1x Archaeopter Fusilave

Total: 1999 points
7 CP
Well, he's Lucius, so he can't. It's funny that he takes Blessed by Metallica just for the extra 2 wounds without the opportunity to repair, but it makes sense; nothing else will improve that specific performance against Skitarii hordes and it pushes the wounds just high enough to give typical 6 Laschicken lists trouble killing it in one go.

In your list, you still need to pay CP for each of the Warglaives or else you lose all your canticles anyway. They're a regular Super Heavy Detachment, so they don't get Knights of the Cog for free. Just 2 Warglaives at 2k isn't quite enough, I feel. I'd just drop them and bring the Knight alone. I don't think you need Armor of Sainted Ion when you have Shroudpsalm and a 5++ in close combat, so I'd just skip the relic to save a CP. Then you can take another 5 Skitarii and bump up to a Battalion to split up the Chickens and take more stuff. You probably need a close combat threat, like a block of Ruststalkers.

bmsattler wrote:
I'm not seeing how the knight's RFBC is picking up Lucius infantry. It's AP2 and they ignore that. Unless they are ignoring that unit and shooting at the others?
Exactly, they can only buff one unit, and the gun has a 72" range so you just pick another. The important thing is that it gets 12 shots and it's not damage 1. It's there to kill the 80-100 Skitarii lists, less so the 40 mans.

 Fishborne wrote:
Here is my Metallica- Raven list im taking to my next major. I save CP by making the knight the warlord, but it's a trade because that takes admech relics and Warlord traits off the table.
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [39 PL, 9CP, 790pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Forge World Choice: Forge World: Metalica

+ Stratagems +

List Stratagems

+ Agents of the Imperium +

Inquisitor [4 PL, 65pts]: 6) Castigation, Chainsword, Flamer, Ordo Malleus, Psyker

+ HQ +

Skitarii Marshal [3 PL, 45pts]

Tech-Priest Dominus [4 PL, 75pts]: Macrostubber, Volkite Blaster

Tech-Priest Manipulus [6 PL, 105pts]: Logi, Magnarail lance

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers [2 PL, 55pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 3x Skitarii Ranger: 3x Galvanic Rifle
. Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [8 PL, 195pts]: Omnispex
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 17x Skitarii Ranger: 17x Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Vanguards [8 PL, 165pts]: Omnispex
. 19x Skitarii Vanguard: 19x Radium Carbine
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

+ Elites +

Sicarian Infiltrators [4 PL, 85pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps (Flechette/Taser)
. 4x Sicarian Infiltrator (Flechette/Taser): 4x Flechette Blaster, 4x Taser Goad

++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [61 PL, -3CP, 1,210pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Raven

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Warglaives [21 PL, -1CP, 420pts]: Knight of the Iron Cog
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun

Knight Moiraxes [16 PL, -1CP, 310pts]: Knight of the Iron Cog
. Knight Moirax: 2x Graviton Pulsar
. Knight Moirax: 2x Graviton Pulsar

Questoris Knight Magaera [24 PL, -1CP, 480pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom: The Helm Dominatus, Knight of the Iron Cog, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
. Hekaton Siege Claw and Twin Rad-Cleanser

++ Total: [100 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
You're wasting a CP by taking the AdMech in a Battalion instead of a Patrol. The Magaera is overloaded because it won't often be able to provide both Helm and Landstrider to the Armigers. I find the Armigers are faster and want to get away to do their own thing anyway; they don't need the buffs (especially if they have Canticles) and it frees the Knight up the act more optimally.

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






bmsattler wrote:
I'm not seeing how the knight's RFBC is picking up Lucius infantry. It's AP2 and they ignore that. Unless they are ignoring that unit and shooting at the others?

Yes. You can also use Fusilaves and your own Skitarii.

 DarkHound wrote:
In your list, you still need to pay CP for each of the Warglaives or else you lose all your canticles anyway. They're a regular Super Heavy Detachment, so they don't get Knights of the Cog for free.

Oh damn. It is Auxiliary only. This is a lot more restrictive than I'd thought. I guess I understand why he did it this way with Lucius now.

So from what I gather, Crusader is the best choice if you want to park your Knight in the backfield as a super-heavy artillery piece, and Magaera is the best choice if you want to rush them with the Knight as a Distraction Carnifex?
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

 Suzuteo wrote:
So from what I gather, Crusader is the best choice if you want to park your Knight in the backfield as a super-heavy artillery piece, and Magaera is the best choice if you want to rush them with the Knight as a Distraction Carnifex?
No, not really. The best pure Knight lists have often been 4 House Krast Crusaders. It turns out that Titanic Feet are about the right profile for virtually all infantry targets, so the Crusader is just fine in melee. In fact, you really want to engage in melee as much as possible to wring maximum efficiency out of that 500 point investment. The pure artillery Knight is the Castellan, whose worse speed and 4+ melee hit dissuade close combat.

The Magaera, on the other hand, isn't really a distraction Carnifex either. If you want that, then the Gallant or Lancer are still better. (I've been hearing and seeing a lot of great things from the Lancer, easily the best Cerastus chassis.) Anyway, the Magaera is just better at being versatile than any of the other Questoris. The Magaera is a better than the Warden, Perceptor, and Paladin against their supposed ideal targets, while also being better in close combat than them.

   
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Moustache-twirling Princeps





PDX

So looks like my list doesn't change much:
Spoiler:

House Raven Superheavy Detachment

Knight Crusader
Fury of the Keep, Blessed by Metalica, Knight of the Iron Cog

(2) Armiger Warglaives
Meltaguns, Knight of the Iron Cog

(2) Armiger Warglaives
Meltaguns, Knight of the Iron Cog

Metalica Patrol Detachment

HQ:
Tech-Priest Manipulus
Artisan, Magnarail Lance

Technoarcheologist
Logi

Troops:
(6) Kataphron Breachers

(20) Rangers

Elites:
(5) Infiltrators
Taser & Flachette

Fast Attack:
(5) Serberys Raiders

Heavy:
Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array

Flyer:
Archaeopter Fusilave


I've been kinda waiting for this FAQ to hit and I'm glad I did so I didn't build a bunch of Vanguards when I will wind up with Rangers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 23:19:38


   
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 DarkHound wrote:
 Suzuteo wrote:
So from what I gather, Crusader is the best choice if you want to park your Knight in the backfield as a super-heavy artillery piece, and Magaera is the best choice if you want to rush them with the Knight as a Distraction Carnifex?
No, not really. The best pure Knight lists have often been 4 House Krast Crusaders. It turns out that Titanic Feet are about the right profile for virtually all infantry targets, so the Crusader is just fine in melee. In fact, you really want to engage in melee as much as possible to wring maximum efficiency out of that 500 point investment. The pure artillery Knight is the Castellan, whose worse speed and 4+ melee hit dissuade close combat.

The Magaera, on the other hand, isn't really a distraction Carnifex either. If you want that, then the Gallant or Lancer are still better. (I've been hearing and seeing a lot of great things from the Lancer, easily the best Cerastus chassis.) Anyway, the Magaera is just better at being versatile than any of the other Questoris. The Magaera is a better than the Warden, Perceptor, and Paladin against their supposed ideal targets, while also being better in close combat than them.

Right, I was speaking in the context as a supplement to AdMech. I have been impressed by the math on the Magaera's dual S7 D3 weapons as well as its ability to fight in addition to shooting.

I feel Titanic Feet fall really short against Gravis profiles. That is why I think of the Crusader as more of an artillery piece. You pretty much are trying to force your opponent to try to shoot it anyway. (Taking Metalica's Blessing without Metalica is weird, but I get it. With Resurgent, 1W is all you really need.)

But yeah, is the Crusader more relevant in this meta? If so, I think we would need to go Lucius to have a more durable midboard. If we go Metalica, we probably want something that can fight as well as shoot? That or bring Rusties in Boats or something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 02:16:52


 
   
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Mira Mesa

My point about Krast Crusaders was to break the perception that they're artillery. They absolutely want to get into close combat, you just have to pick things they can bully. In most match-ups, they should just walk over and kick anything within 2d6". Only one or two units in most lists will give a Knight pause.

On your other point, I guess how much Gravis are you running into? I started and gave up on a third paragraph saying "now that the Gravis plague is over I think Mageara's claw is overated" but it felt unnecessary. The only Gravis I see are 3 to 6 Eradicators, and those are not dealt with by Knight melee. I definitely don't see many 3 wound heavy lists in the tournament reports, outside of Deathwing (and obviously Death Guard Terminators are resilient so don't count). Plus, if you are worried about Gravis, go with a Raven Crusader and take their relic battlecannon which is flat 3 damage.

From all my thinking about it, I don't think Metalica is good enough by itself. The other factions already find enough ways to ignore heavy/assault penalty, and none of their Warlord traits or Relics are anything to write home about. The unique benefit for Metalica is giving Canticles to Knights. At which point, you want to maximize the Knights and Canticles, and you take a Patrol of AdMech to get board control and ObSec. All my ideas lead back to exactly the style of list I play.

Otherwise I think you come back to Lloyd's list; Lucius and Mars are the better core AdMech factions, and a Knight is a tech choice or plugs a hole in your offense. If Gravis spam is really prolific, then Magaera makes sense. If you need a spearhead, a Lancer or Gallant is better than Ruststalkers in a Boat or Dragoons. A Crusader, obviously, can be equipped for a lot of roles. Honestly, though, maybe the Castellan is a better pick. If you're going to spend 5CP on a single model, spend more points.

   
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@DarkHound
Well, the Lightning Cannon profile is also very strong in the mirror to kill Ironstriders. Also does Raiders pretty well. (S7 is the new S8.) Overall, I think we're all just looking to plug in the hole left by Ironstriders losing Core. We want 500 or so points of shooting with good rerolls. Right now, it seems like the solution is to run multiple units of 2-3x Ironstriders in Mars or to bring a Knight.

Metalica has a lot of interesting combat tricks actually. Especially all those -1T auras, which make Rangers and Ruststalkers pretty ridiculous once you give them reroll 1s to wound. But yes, in this context, the repairs and Canticles are what Metalica brings to the table, and the Enriched Rounds nerf really hurts them since we can't do Veteran Cohort here.

Quite frankly, I don't think a Castellan has the right profile. And it's very expensive, especially if you want to use the Raven stratagems.

But I think I will look into the Lucius + Knight Crusader list. May also consider looking at Mars and Stygies. Thanks for the feedback!
   
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Mira Mesa

Honestly, the more I think about the Castellan, the more I want one for myself. A while ago I crunch the numbers on the 3CP Order of Companions and it yields at 61% damage increase against T7 3+ or 4.5 wounds per CP spent. If you're worried about 3W, you can take the relic Plasma Decimator and get flat 3 damage (you probably should anyway, it's an insanely strong relic).

Here's the math I ended up with:
Spoiler:
Plasma 5.216218
2 Siegebreakers 3.5912
Volcano 11.6781
Shieldbreaker 1.57115
==22

Plasma 7.8775632
2 Siegebreakers 4.85576
Volcano 20.360106
Shieldbreaker 2.37276
==35.5
That math doesn't include Cawl's Wrath (just multiply the plasma by 1.5) and doesn't account for Benediction. It's not a big change because there are so many weapons, but it can smoothe out expected results or bump the Shieldbreaker's average by 50%. The choice between Warlord traits is interesting: Ion Bulwark averages to +7 wounds, so Blessed by Metalica is better if you can heal 6 wounds (ie survive 3 turns). Plus, you can still actually invest in the 4++ if it matters (case in point in a minute).

Alright, so here's my funny idea, the same exact thing but bigger:
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP
House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Castellan, 635 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Cawl's Wrath]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280

Forgeworld Metalica Patrol [-2 CP]
Enginseer, 55
5 Infiltrators, Tasers, 85
5 Infiltrators, Tasers, 85
5 Rangers, 40
3 Raiders, 48
Dunecrawler, Icarus Array, 115
Dunecrawler, Icarus Array, 115
Fusilave, 130
Fusilave, 130
Looking at the Mars lists we've theory crafted so far, I ran the math for the mirror-match. If you spend 3CP on Rotate or Kolossi Eternal (4++) and use the Canticle to 5+++ vs Mortals, then 6 Benedicted Las Chickens, 2 Fusilaves, and Wrath of Mars plus Galvanic Fire on the Rangers with all the buffs gets something like 32 average wounds. Whoops. Turns out, you're better off spending 4 CP to reserve the damn thing for the same effect. It does still arrive on turn 2 and drops Order of Companions to kill all the Chickens and reign over the board uncontested from then on.

Anyway, there's two things to note: firstly, Mars' chickens are stronger and the addition of Wrath of Mars is uniquely suited to the task. Lucius, by comparison, yields 26 average wounds so would need to allocate literally every other stubber and small arm to get the kill. The second point is that this is the heaviest shooting available in the meta, and it almost survives. Against any other army (except maybe pure Knights), it would be uncontested.

   
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 DarkHound wrote:
Anyway, there's two things to note: firstly, Mars' chickens are stronger and the addition of Wrath of Mars is uniquely suited to the task. Lucius, by comparison, yields 26 average wounds so would need to allocate literally every other stubber and small arm to get the kill. The second point is that this is the heaviest shooting available in the meta, and it almost survives. Against any other army (except maybe pure Knights), it would be uncontested.

That and forcing your opponent to dump that much firepower into a single extremely tough unit, and if he rolls even slightly cold, he's @#$%ed.

Sidebar: Someone just pointed out to me that Cache is "entirely within or on" for MODELS, not UNITS. Which is dumb because there is no difference between "within" and "entirely within" when it comes to models. So it basically is "within." Meaning it's trivially easy to get Rusties +3 to saves.
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






Quick question if someone flys over a 5-man intercessor squad with our bomber how many bombs are drop?(5 or is it minimum 6)

   
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 CKO wrote:
Quick question if someone flys over a 5-man intercessor squad with our bomber how many bombs are drop?(5 or is it minimum 6)

6x D6 is for each vehicle or monster model in a unit. Otherwise, it's 1x D6 for each model in a unit.

So in this case, it is 5x D6 for the five non-vehicle, non-monster models in the unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 18:55:10


 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 DarkHound wrote:
Honestly, the more I think about the Castellan, the more I want one for myself. A while ago I crunch the numbers on the 3CP Order of Companions and it yields at 61% damage increase against T7 3+ or 4.5 wounds per CP spent. If you're worried about 3W, you can take the relic Plasma Decimator and get flat 3 damage (you probably should anyway, it's an insanely strong relic).


I'm quite a big fan of the Castellan personally! I haven't been pairing it with admech recently, just the magera and I guess the majority knights list I'm currently playing, but he's got a lot of guns and the math on him into a lot of targets is pretty good
   
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Rules nerds

Fusilave bomb rack - wings or base?

LOS can be from wings tips but I’ve always played bombs from the base only. Am I being harsh to myself and missing flying over unsure with wings?
   
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Some advice and clarification needed.

Is the daedalus a HQ option or not - I'm not clear.

What would be a good HQ for an Mars army with 15 breachers, some lone chicken walkers & a Marshall supporting a squad of Rangers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 09:21:07


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
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Cog in the Machine




Sadly, no. the Daedalosus sheet was officially retired in the latest FAQ.

Id go with a Techno-Archeologist to go with a squad of Kataphrons and let them shoot and perform actions, and screen deepstrikers to 12 inches, but honestly none of our HQ's really help a Cult Mechanicus heavy list very much.
   
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Mira Mesa

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Rules nerds

Fusilave bomb rack - wings or base?

LOS can be from wings tips but I’ve always played bombs from the base only. Am I being harsh to myself and missing flying over unsure with wings?
I am not a (rules) lawyer, but my take is the Fusilave does not have any rules about 'measuring from the hull' (like hover vehicles) so the bomb rack should be measured from base. You don't even have to think about it for infantry with fly-by grenades, you obviously assume base. It also makes sense, the bomb rack isn't mounted in the wings.

   
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Aspirant Tech-Adept






Cheers Dark

That’s how I’ll continue to play it
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

I've been re-inspired to work on my AdMech, so I got in two simulator games at 2k with my new vehicle skew list. The first game I ran this previously posted one with the Ironstriders.
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP
House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280

Forgeworld Metalica Patrol [-2 CP]
Enginseer, 55
5 Infiltrators, Tasers, 85
5 Infiltrators, Tasers, 85
5 Rangers, 40
5 Raiders, 80
2 Ironstriders, Autocannons, 130
Dunecrawler, Twin Heavy Phosphor, Smoke Launchers, 115
Dunecrawler, Twin Heavy Phosphor, Smoke Launchers, 115
Fusilave, 130
Fusilave, 130
I went up against an Iron Hands list with some commanders, 20 troops, 10 Bladeguard, 6 Eradicators, a Leviathan and 2 Redemptors. The first thing I noticed was I had a hard time finding targets for the Ironstriders. They're a tiny bit better against MEQ than the Phosphor Crawlers, and a tiny bit worse against T7 3+ than the Warglaives, but I already had enough of each to cover those targets. They're also the weak link in defensive profiles. They just didn't click for me. Meanwhile, I've been playing these same 5 Rangers in my local Crusade league for a couple months now and I can't get them to do much, let alone work as ObSec.

Anyway, the game was a little brutal. I got first turn, so the Raiders moved 30" (+3"M doctrina applies to pregame move) and had their choice of charging anything that survived my shooting phase. As usual, the Fusilaves moved 50", the Crusader moved 20" (Flanking Maneuver), the Warglaives and Ironstriders moved ~18", the Dunecrawlers and Infiltrators moved 11"; I had my pick of targets, so I killed the Leviathan and Redemptors. He started his turn 1 with about 1200pts, a third of which were stuck in combat with Raiders, Infiltrators, and a Full Tilted Warglaive. It took a while to grind him down, and he continued to score the objectives the whole time, but I capped my primary points on turns 4 and 5 and completed most of my secondaries.

My next game was against Dark Eldar: your typical Wyches and Incubi in Raiders, with some board control Reavers and anti-tank Scourges. I switched my list a bit to this, removing the Ironstriders and Rangers for 2x10 Vanguard:
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP
House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280

Forgeworld Metalica Patrol [-2 CP]
Enginseer, 55
5 Infiltrators, Tasers, 85
5 Infiltrators, Tasers, 85
10 Vanguard, Omnispex, 85
10 Vanguard, Omnispex, 85
5 Raiders, 80
Dunecrawler, Twin Heavy Phosphor, Smoke Launchers, 115
Dunecrawler, Twin Heavy Phosphor, Smoke Launchers, 115
Fusilave, 130
Fusilave, 130
This game cemented my opinion that I didn't need the Ironstriders. They're ideal for killing Raiders, but I had enough anti-tank to kill every visible Raider without them anyway. I killed 3 on turn 1 going second, again due to advance and shooting the Knights; the Crusader ran 20" around a u-shaped building and merc'd a Raider by itself. I reserved the Vanguard, and used the Infiltrators and Raiders to keep the fast attack from charging any vehicles (which were all on the edge of my deployment zone). On my turn, a lot of the Wyches and Incubi got dismounted midfield and there was nothing to charge except the Warglaives. The characters and Incubi chewed through the Warglaives, but then the Vanguard pulled up and hosed them down. My opponent killed 3 Warglaives and a Dunecrawler, but he just didn't have enough stuff left to keep fighting.

I'm extremely pleased with the armor skew. It's easy enough to reserve or hide the infantry, and they're fast enough to still contribute. The army is especially good at shutting out chip damage between army-wide 2+ armor, all the regen/repair, and 2 strats to ignore profile degradation (the AdMech and Knight ones are separate). I had totally written off my Dunecrawlers, with the Phosphor especially, but they are so consistent and they always have something useful to shoot. The change to Fusilave bombs against tanks makes a world of difference too. The list is so consistent and doesn't need to rely on the Vanguard blob, which often felt like a weak underbelly.

I can't quite play this list IRL yet, but I know what I'm doing with my store league winnings.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 02:06:49


   
Made in gb
Implacable Skitarii





DarkHound, I don't understand how you're getting doctrina in those lists as having a super heavy detachment, not a super heavy aux, will remove access to canticles and doctrinas (unless I'm missing something).

Approx armies
6000pts AdMech (Main army)
6000pts Black Templars (original army)
3500pts Death Guard (lazy side project)
2000pts Imperial Knights (extension of AdMech)
1500pts Harlequins (fun side project)
 
   
 
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