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"Transmission: Major Tokagi Kim, Mantis Warrior Flag Ship, Green Menace:"

*crackle*

"Captain Blackhand's Red Knights have been reassigned to duty within our sector. The Mantis Warriors are proud to have our brethren from the far side of the known universe join us in our endless crusade to bring The Emperor's justice to the far corners of space and enforce his will."

*hissss...*

"Kim out."

those=sweet

Awww man, you are such a lucky man Gits!!

-quiet sobbing-

Be a fair amount of work before they're fully complete... I want to get custom bases for them all, need to paint *all* the force weapons & there's a lot of work to be done on the vehicles... but really once the last two bits come in they can be played at any time, so I can start practicing with them.

Nice to see Blackhand's Red Knights are going to stay on dakka and supporting the Mantis Warriors no less, may their enemy's shake in fear.

It's a good thing and I am happy.

So happy.

Glad everyone approves!

Here's my army for Saturday's game. My two old land speeders are standing in for two LS storms. Didn't get much done painting wise today. Hand blended the force axe & painted a couple of bits of war gear so they're identifiable.

Love the group shot the army looks great as do the dynamics of how you set them up

Wow, that is an amazing board those are displayed on!


p.s. its awesome that you've got the red knights as well. You should take a couple close ups so we can better admire the redness.

So glad to see the Red Knights staying within the dakkasphere!

I'll do close-ups of the Red Knights as I finish them. I'll probably start with the low-hanging fruit. The big infantry squads really only need to be re-based and have their power weapons painted.

In the mean time, here's a link to the Red Knight page in BLACKHAND's gallery. He's got pics of most everything there. If you want to see something specific, let me know and I'll take a pic.

I'm pretty happy with this particular build. Remains to be seen if it'll work well or not, but it will take a number of outings to determine that. I think it'll look fine once I finish painting all the elements though.

Awesome, will be fun to see the Knights get done! They going to get the same base style as the MW? Would be a good way to tie them all together.

Ps, i do hope you'll rebase the scouts, the diff. colour is really jumping out.

Quick update:

I drew the battle with the Red Scorpions, though I was pretty happy with the performance over all. Initial gambit of moving the bikes with the homing beacon into position during the scout move, as well as both scout squads in their LS Storms worked well, as did then dropping both the Iron Clad and the Sternguard right where I wanted them (near the bikes). Initial shooting went very well. We only got through turn 3... and my opponent was slowly gaining ground, but I was still happy with the way things were going and had a trick up my sleeve if we'd have been able to play the game to it's finish. I really like the scout bikes & scouts + LS Storms in combination... very effective.

So, while we drew the two major objectives I earned two bonus points for our campaign team... I'll take that with a smile. :-) Fun game, great opponent!

Sorry, no pics. More later, off to dinner with the grandparents!

Hey Gits.
Finally got myself back from China in the early hours, darn about 10-12 pages to catch up on.

I hope this helps with regards to skin colours, maybe not. I took pics from an old wd article. All pics (19 in total) are in my gallery but the damned thing keep putting them in random order, so instead of clogging your thread if you want more info look there. They did a more detailed faces redux article where they did other skin colours in more detail i believe but i cant find it in my magazines or their website.

Anyways hope the pics help:

Thanks Dantay, that looks like it's going to be very helpful. I'll take a look!

Good luck with those red knights Gits, can't wait to see you breaking out your basing skills on them!

Also Danty_XV, which WD is that from?

Hey perplexiti, its in the UK WD issue 350, with the lizardman cover.

UK WD 362 has the monstrous faces masterclass for ogres trolls etc..

Nice to hear of the draw in the Red Scorps game Gits, I never really thought of using scouts that way.. well done!

Oh and good luck with the half finished Knights, I can't wait to see what you do with them.

Thanks Dantay! I'll have to have a look at home, I forget which issue was the last straw for me...

So, I thought I’d go into a little bit more detail about my army list as I know there are at least a few of you that play and might be interested in my tactical experiment.

My 1850 list from last weekend was as follows:

HQ: terminator libby w/ SS, gate, null zone
Elite: Iron Clad in pod w/ HF, assault launchers & 1 HK missile
Elite: 8-man sternguard squad in pod w/full combi-weapons, PF, in pod
Elite: Rifleman in pod
Troop: 5-man tac squad in las/plas razorback, power sword
Troop: 5-man tac squad in las/plas razorback, power sword
Troop: 5-man assault scout squad, combi plas
Troop: 5-man assault scout squad, combi melta
FA: 4-man scout bikes w 3x grenade launchers, homing beacon, power sword
FA: LS Storm w/ MM
FA: LS Storm w/ MM
Hvy: 5-man dev squad w/ 4x ML

This is essentially building and additional 850 pts onto my Adepticon 1000 point army… mainly because I had more practice with that build than any other I’ve ever done, so it seemed like the best starting point. The big problems with that build were a) no assault capability, and b) too many kill points to give away. This 1850 build doesn’t really address either of those issues. The assault scouts might help a little but let’s face it… it’s two groups of 5 scouts… not two groups of Khorne berserkers. And with 17 KP this list is God-awful in KP missions that award victory on total kill points, though it has an advantage in missions that require a percentage of kill points to claim victory (usually over half).

Anyway, I decided that I couldn’t “fix” the problems with my original army without completely changing it’s character, or painting up a bunch of figures and there simply wasn’t’ time for that, so I adopted another approach. I looked at my strategy for Adepticon… crippling strike with the pods on turn 1 with long-range mobile fire power from the razorbacks and rifleman in support, and thought about what I could do to make that more effective. In essence, maximizing my strengths, rather than addressing my weaknesses. So, what were the problems with my Adepticon strategy (i.e. the weaknesses of my strength)? First, it was the fact that the pods scatter, and could not be relied upon to land where I needed them. Second, it was that the troops that podded in couldn’t assault that turn, making them subject to being charged the following turn, so even with an assault oriented thing like the Iron Clad… it never really got to do what it was intended for. Third, there just wasn’t enough in my “alpha-strike” to get the job done. Lastly, once my pods came down, I was effectively reduced to foot-slogging, so while my army was highly mobile in turn one… it had low mobility from that point on *if* I wanted to fire my weapons.

So, having a number of weaknesses to address, and looking at the figures I had readily available, I came up with the following:
- Increase the size of the sternguard squad & give everyone a 5 point combiweapon. At that cost you just can’t argue with it and the increase in numbers and firepower makes the sternguard much “harder”
- Run the terminator epistolary libby with the sternguard. This gives them one good invulnerable if they need it. It also means that he can null zone particularly tough opponents (like termies) or demons and minimize the efficacy of the combi-weapons. His “gate” ability also makes the squad mobile *after* it pods down, so once they accomplish their primary mission, they can gate elsewhere and continue the fight. He also helps if they get into CC and the psychic hood can be very useful.
- The scout bikes give me a homing beacon on the table that can infiltrate and scout move *before* turn one, allowing the pods a precise drop. The 6 missile shots from them *while still being able to move* makes them fairly scary.
- The two scout squads in the LS Storms w/ MM give me two more units that, with the bikes, can infiltrate and scout move (and they, unlike the podded troops, can charge on turn 1). With the combi-weapons of the sergeants, that amounts to a decent amount of fire power delivered on turn 1 (MM+melta or MM+plas) that is highly mobile and scoring.
- The addition of the dozer blades to the razorback’s makes them just a bit more reliably mobile (and it looks neat).
- Added one HK missile to the Iron Clad to increase his initial fire output on drop.
- The dev squad gives me some nice, long range fire power (and once again proved to be very effective), yet is not overly threatening so people don’t make it a priority to destroy.

So, while still having the same basic problems as my Adepticon build, it has some major improvements.
- I can precisely deliver the scout bikers, LS Storms with scouts, my Iron Clad, Sternguard and Librarian to nearly any position on the board in turn 1.
- My army’s mobility is retained beyond turn 1 (until things are destroyed of course)
- I’ve doubled the number of scoring units and they’re all highly mobile (12” movement or better)
- I’ve increased the viability of many units by increasing their size or adding war gear such as power swords (which can make a difference)
- I’ve added a decent amount of long-range fire support in the form of the devs.
- This army takes advantage of the fact that most tables do not have enough terrain (even by GW standards), as that increases the likelyhood that all of it’s elements can come into play appropriately.
- It is often an advantage in objective games to go second. Should my opponent choose to give me first turn, they are giving me quite an advantage as it allows the best use of my alpha-strike tactics.

All for the good… but some issues remain.
- How do I use this army well when I don’t get the first turn? What’s a good alternate strategies for doing something like putting the bikes and speeders into an outflanking maneuver?
- How do I deal with things like massed orks or nids, where getting close to them is tantamount to suicide? Can I use my mobile firepower to play keep-a-way effectively? (don’t know honestly)

So, while I think this list is a decent one and a major step in the right direction… it still has a lot of weaknesses and vulnerabilities. The Iron Clad had a tendency to underperform offensively, but it’s such a scary target that it usually absorbs a tremendous amount of fire power before it gets immobilized (after which it’s generally useless), which makes room for my sternguard to act. My devs continue to perform well and be well worth their points. They took out the Red Scorpion’s dreadnought and 3 terminators before being knocked down to 2 marines by incoming fire (they were still in good order though & would have kept fighting). I think I’ve done a good job balancing the list so that everything is scary to a degree, but nothing (aside perhaps or the Iron Clad) is so scary that it attracts untoward attention. The advantage being that no matter what you shoot at, what’s left can shoot back pretty effectively. One possible variation is to drop the Iron Clad and it’s pod, and instead take a second scout bike unit. That way I could run each bike unit in tandem with a LS Storm & I’d have two homing beacons on the table, allowing some uncertainty as to where the sternguard would actually be dropping. Don’t’ know… have to experiment a bit I guess.

Thanks for suffering the wall-of-text. I realize this isn't really the forum for such discussions but I'd just get shredded over there so I'd rather have any discussion here where the shredding is likely to be a little less vitriolic.
Gits

I think it would be a great idea to replace the Iron Clad with more scout bikes. 1) They look cool and 2) they're fast and useful.

samwellfrm, I was expecting "fast and..." FURIOUS

Actually, maybe against hordes you should try out a few combi-flamers in your squads?
2 in the Sternguards, one in each Scout squad, and in the Tac squads too? It could be pretty terrifying to some (and, honestly, do you expect one combi-plasma to win you the day? Don't get me wrong - I love all plasma weaponry, but I am more a modeller than a player anyway, and I know what "artistic" choices seem bad compared to "gaming" ones)

@samwellfrm: I have enough of the old jet bikes to make up a second squad, so it's in the long-term plan. Might have to move it up in priority.

@Yggs: That would be a good option if I knew I was facing a hoard army. Most of the time I'm seriously playing... it's in a tournament where I don't know who my opponent is going to be. With the current rules slanted so far towards vehicles, it's hard to justify going away from meltas for an all-comers build. A few plasmas salted around are for the occasional terminator and/or light vehicle duty. Their AP 2 and 2 shots at close ranged gives me a of opportunity to kill my own guys with overheating that I would have normally.

That being said... flamers can be very useful. I just started experimenting with Chapterhouse's combi-weapons & modeled my first one that's actually interchangable. As I get more confidence with them I may start experimenting with different applications of the varying options as they'll be quite easy to switch out.

It's worth bearing in mind, also, that 90% of the time you'll be using one of the standard ammos on your Sternguard. CFs fill a niche; you have other things to fill the anti-tank/anti-MC role of melta/plas.

Point well taken. I could cut one plas & melta from the sternguard for flamers. Giving them to the tac sergeants is a matter of points and modeling... and opportunity as usually those tac squads just ride around in their boxes providing supporting fire for the advanced units. I'll have to think about it.

Besides the Kill Point issue, I like the new list. I can see you having a lot of issues with fast close combat armies. You have plenty of little units but no little beef to slow them down. Once they get in close combat with you, you may run into some serious issues. Then again small units means they will charge and kill your unit giving you a turn to fire at them in retaliation. Then again there is no one answer to any army, the armies that win are the ones that do one thing and do it really well. I like what you're working with. I would also stick with the meltas and plasmas. Flamers are great on hordes but useless against nearly every tank. Meltas and Plasmas can kill anything.

You ever think about adding another drop pod unit of some kind?

What you really need to do is take a week off from work and drive down to Indy so we can play test.

I do like the narrative it teams up well with the army cohesion that your working towards (a hit them early, lots of light units and heavy hits with meltas etc)

On top of that there is top notch painting and converting

I feel that there really isn't any room, in 5th edition, to truly maneuver. Increased model count and overall increased speed has made the 4x6 table just too tiny.

Briancj wrote:I feel that there really isn't any room, in 5th edition, to truly maneuver. Increased model count and overall increased speed has made the 4x6 table just too tiny.

i agree very little room to move aroundand with weapon ranges constantly increasing (my railguns for instance) theres not much moving needed in the first place....but back to topic agree that asault armies would be your bane and hordes would just have to pick your targets otherwise the bikes/speeder rush would be devastating and very intimidating from a tau point of view


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Then again i play a very static tau force besides the 3-4 suit teams i run