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Well, GW has certainly made that decision, yet we still have spam and min max. My method is based on min max because that is where gamers are going to take the rule.

I am looking at my list of craftworld ideas, and am trying to "break" them in my head.

Can you see anything specific that would cause a problem in the rules I offered?

The only issue I can see is that you pretty much have to take one. There is no downside to playing an official ulthwe list rather than just a basic army.

The whole point of attatching these benefits to a HQ is that you can run a themed Saim Han army if you want, but you can have an equally viable army of Craftworld imadeitupmyself just using the basic Farseer/Autarch/Avatar.

If you want to be creative and don't want your army to fit into one of the predefined set up's then your starting out on the back foot.

Gorechild wrote:@Araenion - How any points do you reckon it would be for a full unit of spears (with my rules as well as a 4++ in combat)? I'm rubbish at figuring out a point value, i just want to judge if i thnk they'd be viable for their cost or if they need to be toned down to a reasonable choice.

Well, let's look at what they have. T3(4) is nothing to write home about, but it doesn't really hurt them because they're not multi-wound models. That is, I think they shouldn't be multi-wound models, mainly because PF will still one-shot them and the only thing where it's beneficial is against small-arms fire. Rather than that, I'd suggest the Hold the Charge exarch ability gives them a 12" assault move. Being able to move 24" into close combat will keep them relatively safe from small-arms fire.

I think that a full squad with your rules and my modifications would cost around 200 points. Compared to assault terminators, that cost 200 points, but rely on their transport to get them where they need to be, I think that's a reasonable cost for a unit with WS5, A2, I6, 12" assault range and 4++ in CC. I think they should have plasma grenades and skilled rider by default.

So to break it down:

Each Shining Spear would cost 30 points. 5*30 is 150. Exarch costs 12 points so that's 162. Hold the Charge(12" assault range) would be around 20 points and the Withdraw(Hit&Run USR) ability 15 points. That's cca 200 points plus any exarch wargear upgrades. That's not unreasonable for such an elite unit, in my opinion.

Shining Spears - 90 points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
4---5--3-3(4)-6-2-2--9--3+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
3 Shining Spears

Wargear:
Star Lance
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon

Special Rules:
Hit and Run

Options:
Up to 2 additional Shining Spears may be purchased for 30 points each
One Shining Spear may upgrade to an Exarch for 12 points
The Exarch may upgrade his Star Lance to a Sun Lance for 8 points
The Exarch ay purchase a Shimmershield for 15 points

Exarch Powers:
Masters of the Charge - A unit with "Masters of the Charge" may assault 12" rather than the normal 6" - 20 points
Master Riders - The whole unit have the skilled rider USR and count as having plasma grenades - 5 points

Star Lance - A Star Lance doubles the wielders strength and ignores armour saves on the turn they charge, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S4 AP2
Sun Lance - A Sun lance increases the weilders strength to 8 and ignores armour saves, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S5 AP2


Updated - how does that look?

That makes a fully pimped out squad 210 points.

Uhh, I think those blasts are just asking for trouble. It's very easy to scatter back onto the Shining Spears and I personally would never, ever use it.

Also, I reiterate my point that with 24" range the 2 wounds are absolutely not needed. And again, that inv save is mandatory. What protection do they have against PFs? Without a 4++ I wouldn't dare charge even a normal tact squad with a PF in it, he can kill half my squad off, 2 wounds or not. And god forbid I actually want to charge a greater daemon or a group of PK Nobz. I must say I don't understand why you're against an inv save, the cost of 4++ can't be much higher than of having 2 wounds and is infinitely more useful.

I don't think that's blast as in "blast marker", I think that's blast as in "shot".

Personally, I'd prefer the Shining Spears to have a rule saying their hit and run can be used even if the enemy is wiped out. This means there's a potential to get away from the enemy's buddies if the enemy is wiped out.

Combined charge from multiple units of Shining Spears. It's not a question of what a single unit of Shining Spears can do, but rather what a unit of Shining Spears together with something else can do.
And I'd prefer to see Eldar as mobile rather than slugger. Mobile to the point I'm idly toying with if Eldar foot units can perform short-range teleports with a few limitations. What if Storm Guardians had a 12" assault range? They'd still be poor melee combatants, but they'd get the charge and have an increased threat range.

Araenion wrote:Uhh, I think those blasts are just asking for trouble. It's very easy to scatter back onto the Shining Spears and I personally would never, ever use it.

Also, I reiterate my point that with 24" range the 2 wounds are absolutely not needed. And again, that inv save is mandatory. What protection do they have against PFs? Without a 4++ I wouldn't dare charge even a normal tact squad with a PF in it, he can kill half my squad off, 2 wounds or not. And god forbid I actually want to charge a greater daemon or a group of PK Nobz. I must say I don't understand why you're against an inv save, the cost of 4++ can't be much higher than of having 2 wounds and is infinitely more useful.

I don't think he meant a literal blast either, but other then that I agree with this (at least mostly). I think the 4++ is much more useful to this unit than 2 wounds, but having a permanent 4++ may be a bit much. Sort of like with wyches only having an invul in close combat, I think a sort of temporary invul would be more reasonable. Since these guys are designed to be a sort of one hit wonder, how about a 4++ that lasts (assuming you got the charge) until your next turn. So you move 12", assault 12" charge in, do a bunch of damage to those PK nobs/Trygon/whatevs and then (assuming your target isnt dead) you can receive return hits on armor or invul and do the same during their following turn. If you're still locked then you should use hit and run to get out since the 4++ will no longer be in effect, but if you succeed in escaping and charge again then the whole process repeats.

Wyches are 10-point models. Shining Spears would be 30-35 point models. If that point value doesn't warrant an invulnerable save, I don't know what is.

Araenion wrote:Wyches are 10-point models. Shining Spears would be 30-35 point models. If that point value doesn't warrant an invulnerable save, I don't know what is.

My point was to show an example of temporary invulnerable saves, not to suggest that we make Shining spears points comparable with wyches.
That 30-35 points is also getting you increased toughness, a 3+ armor save, jetbike movement, apparently the ability to assault like cavalry, strength 6 powers weapons, 2 attacks base, WS5...........Thats a pretty impressive lineup as it is. I agree that as a dedicated assault unit that is intended to go up against MC's and other armor save ignoring nasties, they need an invul save. I was just thinking that just giving them a 4++ in addition to all that other stuff may be a bit too good. If my previous suggestion was too complex then perhaps we can give them a more advanced version of the shimmer shield DA's can get now and have it work the same way.

I might have been a little scathing there, even though I didn't mean to be, so sorry if it came off like that.

There's also more than just points here to look at. They are a 5-man unit. That means that even one killed is a big loss for the squad. There are several ways of adressing that, like FNP, invulnerable save, multiple wounds, etc...I think the most fitting and useful way to do it in this case is a 4++ in CC. In shooting it'd be nice, but not really necessary, because you already have a 3+ cover save on the turn you turboboost and 4+ cover save which is easy to get from terrain and other models. Besides, no one will spend their AT guns on a group of T3(4) models.

No worries; I think we are actually in agreement. I would certainly give a thought to using shining spears if they were like this.
Are we including forgeworld's hornet models into the codex or are warp spiders the last bit for fast attack?

Gorechild wrote:
Star Lance - A Star Lance doubles the wielders strength and ignores armour saves on the turn they charge, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S4 AP2
Sun Lance - A Sun lance increases the weilders strength to 8 and ignores armour saves, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S5 AP2

If just for aestethical reasons, I think the exarch weapon should be called star lance (The name is taken from Asuryans legendary weapon). The usual weapons could be called Silver lance, perhaps? Or something...

Considering that we are working on the fast attack choices, I agree that we should try and fix the Warp Spiders a little (really, I wonder if they need much fixing).
Dunno what I think about adding the Hornet, but I definitely think we should add the Shadow Spectres. Its just too bad they are heavy support, even though they are jump infantry.

But warp spiders could have their WJGs made abit safer, such as if they roll a double one takes a wound with armour saves allowed, or something. Otherwise I think they are fine, they just need new models (especially a new exarch, I find those backpack spinner ugly as hell)

The current Warp Spiders are pretty good, a bit cost ineffective, but that's 4th edition codex for you. Personally, I'd prefer to get synnergy rather than cost decrease in there, and if the Warp Spiders simply stuck the unit they hit in difficult terrain until the Warp Spiders' next turn - presto! (Also, this way, having Warp Spiders have a stable 6" JSJ rather than 2D6" makes the target acquisition more a tactical choice than a prayer to the dice god - the enemy you shoot is not going to reach you with assault, but their buddies might)
It's a pretty heavy new ability, so 22 points would be more than representative of their abilities I should say.

Hornets can't realistically be introduced unless the concept of the Vypers are changed. Hornet is a light, fast, vehicle with heavy fire power - Vyper is a light, fast, vehicle with decent fire power. It's a calculation where the Vyper lose.
Now, if we pick up on the suggestion of making Vypers into Jetbikes (they really don't need extra protection for it, either) you suddenly have a twist.
Hornet provides super fast fire platform while the Vyper provides a lower cost JSJ capability. Add in that the Vyper is a Jetbike with two crewmen and as such can fire both the underslung and the turret mounted weapon when moving at "cruising speed", the Shuriken upgrade is suddenly very attractive and distinctive from the Hornet.

I fully understand the Spectres being Heavy Support. They aren't really fast as such and their weapons are a two-finger salute to Land Raiders. There's just something that doesn't quite fit with them, and I'd personally alter the rules a tiny bit so that their default weapons shot 24" and their Ghostlight shot 12" per model participating (i.e. just increase the base range of the non-linked weapon by 12").
This in order to allow them to actually do something when the enemy has run out of Land Raiders.

Shock Lance?

Personally I think the monfilament web rule that the nightspinner has should apply to all such weapons, deathspinners included. Forcing affected enemy units to move through difficult and dangerous terrain is pretty sweet. As for their second jump I actually prefer the 2 d6 as on average it gets you farther then 6". I like the idea of making a bit safer though. I'm not sure if we've tweaked exarch powers, but assuming they're relatively similar we could replace the surprise assault power (which currently does nothing anyway) with one that allows them to reroll the 2d6 or to prevent them losing a squad member if they roll doubles on a 4+ or something.

As for the hornets vs. vyper problem, I like the solution ioffered by Mahtamori. Turning vypers into the eldar equivalent of attack bikes is a great idea and would allow the hornets (which can pack some major firepower) to take their former place.

I also agree with the change to shadow spectres though obviously they belong in heavy support.

Right, to clear a couple things up....

I put in the option for a shimmershield for a 5++ close combat save, maybe we could create something else for a 4++ close combat save, but I thought it might be worth using something we've already got?

As for the whole "blast" thing, I was using the word as a description, not suggesting they use blast markers. I probably should have included "Heavy 1" to clear that up.

If we're all sorted with GJB's and Vypers then we can go back to Warp Spiders and hopefully we might have a convincing swooping hawk idea. I think clearing up the last details on Spears first would be best though.

Tortoiseer wrote:Personally I think the monfilament web rule that the nightspinner has should apply to all such weapons, deathspinners included. Forcing affected enemy units to move through difficult and dangerous terrain is pretty sweet. As for their second jump I actually prefer the 2 d6 as on average it gets you farther then 6". I like the idea of making a bit safer though. I'm not sure if we've tweaked exarch powers, but assuming they're relatively similar we could replace the surprise assault power (which currently does nothing anyway) with one that allows them to reroll the 2d6 or to prevent them losing a squad member if they roll doubles on a 4+ or something.

I think both things you said here is all what is needed for the Warp Spiders.
Give Deathspinners (Not Spinneret Rifles) the same rules as Doomweavers (apart from blast, but perhaps they should keep barrage - I don't know).
Change the exarch power Surprise Assault with Webmaster (which is a very silly name but come up with some better then!) - should the squad roll doubles when using the WJG, you may re-roll the distance.

I accidently got a kinda crazy idea about Swooping Hawks; perhaps their wings should make the extremely fast, like being able to move 18" instead of 12" but otherwise use the rules for jump infatry? Or maybe use that should be how Skyleap works, the squad may move up to 24" (or perhaps 18") in the movement phase?

And also about them, they really should get a more precise roll. The lasblaster are made for killing horde units, while haywire grenades and Intercept are made for assaulting tanks. One of these two things need to go away. I personally find them as something made for harassing units, really not an antitank-unit. This has surely been brought up before, but shall we fix the Swooping hawks that is something compulsory...

And again something aestethical: take away those silly green masks they wear!

For the Warp Spider jump, what about an ability to roll 3d6 instead of 2. That would be equal risk reward. If you really need the spiders to get away, you roll 3 dice, but your chance of losing a guy goes up dramatically.

If 6" move is not good enough, then my suggestion is 6" plus d6" if the player chooses. On a roll of one, the squad loses a member. Same 1/6 chance as now, but you have that reliable 6" assault jump without having to worry about random range or losing a Spider.

Is their anything I can do to help.

Rules for New Aspect Shrines would be cool.

dralend wrote:Is their anything I can do to help.

Rules for New Aspect Shrines would be cool.

For the time being I think we have our hands full with the existing aspects
Any suggestions for Warp Spiders or more importantly Swooping Hawks would be great.

Warp Spiders -
The Doomweaver text has a syntax flaw in that if the enemy unit for any reason moves, the effect is triggered and removed even if the enemy unit would be rendered immune to it's effect due to the nature of this movement.

Changing Surprise Assault to more reliability in the second jump sounds just fine. I'd personally go for allowing you to re-roll any result - but the second one goes.

Swooping Hawks -

Skyleap, changed to provide Turbo Boost. This is common to all my suggestions. Essentially this gives an improved run with cover.

Cheap Hawks. Simply drop the points to 13 ppm. The main weapon is weak, the models are cheap, and the blast marker is effectively one-shot. Still vulnerable on deep strike.

Heavy Hawks. The blaster weapon is improved in terms of killing power. Still focused on anti-light infantry, but with more emphasis on number of shots. Assault 3-4.

Jet Hawks. Similar to Cheap Hawks or Heavy Hawks in terms of equipment and cost, but they now have Jet Packs. No longer as vulnerable to blast templates the turn they deep strike (you get to move 6" in the assault phase).
Autarch with wings will find that Reaper Launcher is a lot more attractive.

Hybrid Hawks. Keep the weapon the same, drop cost to around 16 points. Give them CCW+Pistol. Counter-intuitive to the long range on blasters.

MEQ-Hunter Hawks. Blasters are kept the same as current, but the AP is improved to AP3.

MECH-Hunter Hawks. Essentially the same as current, but the effect of Haywire is improved and protection against vehicle destruction (say a 2+ save against the effect of demolished vehicles) is implemented.

'nade Hawks. Weapon is changed completely to assault 1 blast.

etc

Well then, here goes my idea, at least...

I use the spiders and love their harrasment potential and have been thinking about their role in the Eldar army. It's clear that they are meant to be anti-infantry, unlike Hawks who are just confused about their role. The Spiders' limited AT capability is just that, limited and more a product of having no infantry to target when opposing a mech list.

So with this in mind, I'd give them weapons and abilities to define their role even more.

Warp Spiders - cost: 21 point per model

BS4 WS4 S3 T3 I5 A1 W1 Ld9 Sv3+

Unit type:
Jump infantry

Unit Size:
5-10 Warp Spiders


Wargear:
Warp jump generator
Death Spinner:
Range: 12" S X, poisoned 4+ AP6 Assault 3


Special Rules:
A unit equiped with a warp jump generator may move 6" in the assault phase even if the they are not in a position to assault. The controling player can choose to increase the distance of this move by D6". If a 1 is rolled when attempting this, one model selected by the controlling player must be removed as a casualty with no save of any kind allowed.

The death spinner releases a barrage of shots of monofilament wires that covers the enemy, impairing movement and cutting through their flesh and bone should they move. Squad hit with a Death Spinner is treated as if being in difficult and dangerous terrain until the next time it moves for any reason.


One model in the squad may be upgraded to an exarch for a +12 points

Exarch wargear options:
Squad exarch may purchase an additional Death Spinner for +5 points or may exchange it for a Spinneret Rifle, a more stronger version of the Death Spinner that wounds on 2+ instead and has Rending USR for the same points; additionally, the exarch may be equiped with a pair of poisoned blades that provide an extra attack, wound on 4+ and have Rending USR for +10 points.

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw for 15 points, provides the unit with Hit&Run USR
Suprise assault for 10 points, when the Exarch's squad Deep Strikes from reserve, they scatter d6" instead of the usual 2d6"

How does that look?

Araenion wrote:Warp Spiders - cost: 21 point per model

BS4 WS4 S3 T3 I5 A1 W1 Ld9 Sv3+

Unit type:
Jump infantry

Unit Size:
5-10 Warp Spiders


Wargear:
Warp jump generator
Death Spinner:
Range: 12" S X, poisoned 4+ AP6 Assault 3


Special Rules:
A unit equiped with a warp jump generator may make a 6" jump in the assault phase, in any pre-nominated direction. Also, the same unit may attempt a second jump in the same phase for a d6 inches in the same direction as the first. However, on a roll of 1, something goes awry and one model in the squad is lost to the warp and removed as a casualty. This move may be used even if the unit is not in a position to assault.

The death spinner releases a barrage of shots of monofilament wires that covers the enemy, impairing movement and cutting through their flesh and bone should they move. Squad hit with a Death Spinner is treated as if being in difficult and dangerous terrain until the next time it moves for any reason.


One model in the squad may be upgraded to an exarch for a +12 points

Exarch wargear options:
Squad exarch may purchase an addition Death Spinner for +5 points or may exchange it for a Spinneret Rifle, a more stronger version of the Death Spinner that wounds on 2+ instead and has Rending USR for +10 points; additionally, the exarch may be equiped with a pair of poisoned blades that provide an extra attack, wound on 4+ and have Rending USR for +10 points.

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw for 15 points, provides the unit with Hit&Run USR
Suprise assault for 10 points, when the Exarch's squad Deep Strikes from reserve, they scatter d6" instead of the usual 2d6"

@"something goes awry" - Beautifully worded! As for the actual rules for the assault phase movement, I think it could be made a little clearer though. How about:
"A unit equiped with a warp jump generator may move 6" in the assault phase even if the they will not end up in an assault. the controling player can choose to increase the distance of this move by D6", If a 1 is rolled when attempting this, one randomly selected model must be removed as a casualty with no save of any kind allowed.

I agree with the monofilament wire idea, I'm still trying to find a way of wording it to close all the loop holes though, something like:
"When any unit is hit by a weapon with the monofilament wire special rule, every model must take a difficult and dangerous terrain test the next time any model in the unit moves for any reason"

I suggestion I've put forward a couple times is to give the whole squad S:2 AP:- R:Template Type: Assault 1, Monofilament wire, Rending.This would make the actual firing of the weapon pretty poor, but gives a 100% chance of the target unit being effected by the special rule. What do you think?

The current Warp spiders have an estimated 0.56 infantry wounded per round of fire. With a S2 template weapon the target becomes intensely more critical, but since half of the infantry you shoot at are Space Marines, the template will tend to wound 1/6 per model hit, meaning you'd only need to cover 4 models per template for the template to be a more lethal weapon than the current weapon - and that's not counting Rending.
Against Imperial Guard or similar T3, you're looking at a much high lethality.

This is subject to diminshed returns due to the shorter range on the template, of course, but a S2 template is significantly more lethal to infantry than S6 Assault 2.

That said, it does suit them. I just think a template with rending might warrant a higher cost than the current warp spiders. Probably above 30 ppm.

Araenion: Two spinners has a wound rate which is approximately 3:2,5 - higher than that spinnerette, but the spinnerette has rending. I wouldn't personally make a point difference on this basis, the spinnerette option isn't that much better.

Gorechild, hehe, glad you liked it. And I think I like your wording for the assault jump better than mine, so I'll edit it in instead, all except the "even if they will not end up in an assault". Because that still leaves it open for RAW debate. Both your wording and mine on the monofilament wire is still a bit in the air, so I'll leave it as is while we find that perfect ruling.

Mahtamori, you're right, I didn't look at it like that, I think 5 points for either weapon is fair. Alternatively 10 points for either, but I'm not sure the weapons are powerful enough for that.

Also, I don't like the template idea because placing up to 10 templates is tiring and as Mahtamori says, even with S2, it's still scarily powerful, just look at what Ork burnaz can do, and they have to have a pretty expensive Battlewagon for that. And the duality of Spiders at the moment and in my profile is that they can reliably take down MCs. If they had templates, they would really only be useful against basic infantry and I think that squads costing 200+ points need to be at least a little flexible.

Well maybe just give rending to the exarch?
the only issue with the short range is that if they fail to get out of assault range or break line of sight, they'd get slaughtered. Sort of adds to the skill of playing them which I like, and as I see it the template suits my mental image of how they work a lot better.
I'm thinking small units (3-5 including exarch) of T3 3+ would balance the extra potential for damage that the template would provide.

I don't know, do we need another suicidal Storm Guardian-like squad?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I wouldn't be pleased if they suddenly changed them so radically, when essentially they are fine, just in need of a bit fine-tuning.

Well I dont think they'd be suicidal, they'd have JSJ and a 3+ save so used well they could be a pain in the arse to kill.

If we were going with your style then I don't see anything wrong with them apart from the poisoned ranged weapon, it doesn't seem to fit to me.

I'm assuming (looking at the 10 edits) you've updated your original suggestion? If you have there is still a loophole in the monofilament wire rule.
With your wording you could move one model from the squad but leave the other unit members still, take one dangerous terrain test for the one guy that moved and net turn move the whole unit without any penalty.

Gorechild wrote:Well I dont think they'd be suicidal, they'd have JSJ and a 3+ save so used well they could be a pain in the arse to kill.

If we were going with your style then I don't see anything wrong with them apart from the poisoned ranged weapon, it doesn't seem to fit to me.

No, I don't either think they should be poisoned (though it is quite fitting with the Exarxh CCW being poisoned). Deathspinner being a template weapon is an interesting idea, i think that is pretty nice. Frankly, I think Eldar need something in general to really counter cover saves.

Gorechild wrote:I'm assuming (looking at the 10 edits) you've updated your original suggestion? If you have there is still a loophole in the monofilament wire rule.
With your wording you could move one model from the squad but leave the other unit members still, take one dangerous terrain test for the one guy that moved and net turn move the whole unit without any penalty.

"Should a unit be hit by a weapon with the monofilament wire special rule, every model in the unit must take a difficult and dangerous terrain test, the next time the unit moves for any reason."
That's how it should be.

And the hawks...

Heavy Hawks. The blaster weapon is improved in terms of killing power. Still focused on anti-light infantry, but with more emphasis on number of shots. Assault 3-4.

I think this is what they seem to be made for. If the lasblaster increase to A3/4, the maybe (just for the hell of it) make the sunrifle Assault 10? Would certainly be very interesting...

The thing with that wording is that there's several situations where mandatory movement explicitly states a model is immune to difficult or dangerous terrain. Now, if they immediately take a dangerous terrain test that is all fine and well, but the difficult terrain test will amount to nothing.
Example of such movement is the "Defenders respond" during an assault.