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How about "The next time a model in the effected unit makes any voluntary movement, all models in the unit count as having moved through difficult and dangerous terrain"

That means they don't take the test if they have to make a "defenders react" movement, only when they have the option not to move but do anyway.

I'm no good at rule lawyering so it might be best to ask somebody who who knows what their on about to make it water tight

Gorechild wrote:If we were going with your style then I don't see anything wrong with them apart from the poisoned ranged weapon, it doesn't seem to fit to me.

I'm assuming (looking at the 10 edits) you've updated your original suggestion?

Mostly due to typos, really

I don't think Death Spinners are actually meant to be templates from a fluff-perspective. Nevertheless, it's an interesting idea, but would be very hard to pull off without either making the unit grossly overpowered or vastly underpowered.

My reasoning behind the poisoned 4+ weapons, and bear with me here, is that I believe that as long as they are high enough strength to harm a vehicle, that AP- will stay, nor will we get rending or any other special rule that might make them good vs vehicles. And there's a good reason for that, they're fast and tough, having S6 AP6 would turn them more into excellent transport hunters, infantry AND MC killers. If Death Spinners become S4, now they become only infantry killers and as I already said, I think that an expensive unit should have some flexibility. Poisoned weapons are a nice compromise, because this way they can't hurt vehicles, but they reliably hurt high T models and infantry, which is exactly what they do now, only better. So I've improved their current main roles, while removing their secondary, not-so-good role as transport-hunters. Point being, whoever bought their spiders in 4th edition codex, won't find them drastically changing in the 5th, which I think is important if the unit doesn't need much improvement. Don't try fixing what isn't broken and all that.

As far as the wording on the monofilament goes, I'm not sure we should bother. GW will use their own writing which will be deliciously vague and RAW-exploitable, no matter what we say here.

Mahtamori wrote:The thing with that wording is that there's several situations where mandatory movement explicitly states a model is immune to difficult or dangerous terrain. Now, if they immediately take a dangerous terrain test that is all fine and well, but the difficult terrain test will amount to nothing.
Example of such movement is the "Defenders respond" during an assault.

Allright allright, what about this then?
"Should a unit be hit by a weapon with the monofilament wire special rule, the unit count as being in difficult and dangerous terrain the next time it moves for any reason."

Which is precisely what I originally wrote, except you used the word "unit" and I used "squad".

No, you wrote "until the next time it moves for any reason" - that could mean that exactly before they move, they stop being in difficult terrain. Oh well.

Fair enough, just agree on which wording you want to use and I'll edit it in my profile, so others can use it if they want to make their own Warp Spider profile without the effort of changing the basic rules.

Swooping Hawks

Swooping Hawks wings count as Jet Packs that move 12" in the movement phase (and the standard 6" in the assault phase)

Skyleap - Remove the Swooping Hawks from the table and replace the unit with a Token. Each subsequent movement phase the controlling player may move the marker 24" in any direction and place the marker once again or the player may choose to "land" the unit as per deepstrike rules. Enemy unit may shoot at the Swooping Hawk using the Marker as LoS and shooting distance, but suffer a -18" to their range (ah la nightsheilds) and the swooping hawks benefit from a 3+ cover save as if they had just move using the turboboost USR (this allows flak cannons etc to negate the save)

Swooping Hawk grenade pack - Confers assault and haywire grenade to the unit, addditionally while the unit off the board during skyleap it may choose to make a Swooping Hawk Grenade attack against any unit it passes over (ah la reaver jetbikes). Resolve this attack using one of the following profiles based on home many models are in the unit equipped with Swooping Hawk Grenade packs : 1-4 S4 AP5 Barrage, 5-9 S6 AP5 Barrage, 10+ S8 AP5 Barrage.

And for god sake make the Lasblaster at least AP4.

I don't think giving SHawks and WSpiders JSJ is a great idea. I've been toying with ideas for them but still cant think of anything I like, I'll chuck my ideas out there incase they help someone else come up with something:

Deepstriking into assault
Can choose to move 18" but not assault
Can used ranged weapons in assault instead of normal attacks
Other units of swooping hawks can shoot into a combat as long as the only friendly unit involved has hawk wings.
Give them grenades identical to wyches haywire grenades.

Out of those five options, I think Deepstriking into assault and Can choose to move 18" but not assault are what I like the most. Though thhe first would need the unit to be a bit able to fight in CC, of course.

The major problem you'll have with that is that SWH are not CC specialist so DSing into assault would just make them a liability to whatever is currently fighting. Swooping Hawks fly through the sky, so they suffer the same pseudo 3D issue that jetbikes, eldar grav tanks, etc have in that they can't live up to their fluff.

My 40k pic of Swooping Hawks would be as close to a superhero with wings as you could thing. The SHW Pack has a self sustaining power source of plasma, they have leg dropped grenades, and long range laser rifles, so why would they be assaulting? I would think they would carpet bomb from the air strategically while using their rifle range to take out targets. Only time I would see them landing is to get a haywire shot in a vulnerable spot on a vehicle.

These aren't assault marines and allowing shooting into cover would be opening too much of a can of worms.

Big hurdles to overcome:
- Point cost balance, boost effectiveness or lower cost
- No reason to take more then 5 per squad, give me a reason to field 30 hawks
- Low survivability to damage output ratio

BlueDagger wrote:Big hurdles to overcome:
- Point cost balance, boost effectiveness or lower cost
- No reason to take more then 5 per squad, give me a reason to field 30 hawks
- Low survivability to damage output ratio

How about a reaver jetbike style attack from the grenade packs? Any unit they move over takes D3 x Number of models in the unit hits, they can then shoot afterwards with assault 3 ap4 rifles.

Wraith Lords- No more twin-linking, Can buy the same weapon twice without twin-linking them. Easier twin-linking, A second weapon of the same sort is half as expensive. Twin-linked weapons aren't as powerful as two weapons of the same kind. Three for the FOC-price of one, Each FOC slot may provide room for up to three Wraith Lords. Each Wraith Lord is a unit of it's own for all other purposes. Improved Melee, Return of the 3 base attacks in melee OR by having Wraithsword provide bonus attacks (in which case double-blade becomes an option). The idea is that the Wraith Lord is FOC-slot ineffective and easily tied down in melee for a monstrous creature. Aspect Lords, Wraithlords are equipped according to their former Aspect. Each lord will also feature a slightly different statline to differentiate between the heavy and the light aspects. This is a rather large topic due to the number of itterations, but also requires the base statline for Wraith Lords to be decreased. For example a Spider Wraith Lord would come with double swords and a Mandiblaster, bumping it's base attacks up to 4, in addition to being able to infiltrate. A Spider Wraith Lord would have increased Strength of 8(9) and a high toughness of 8. The basic idea is also to cut down on the number of iterations, maybe so much as to only get one melee archetype, one ranged archetype, and one miscellaneous archetype, and allow for some variation.


Wraithlords are S10

I keep hearing that the swooping hawk exarch was almost like a kungfu master in previous editions. What if we made Hawks like the ultimate hit and run with assault. My vision is like a real-world hawk swooping down and raking an intruder with its claws. Give them grenades to synthesize this, that deal damage to any unit they fly over. Then reconcept their weaponry from the lame lasblasters to something a tad more close combat, make them be able to fleet of foot with their wings, going maybe 2d6, then give them some sort of close combat weapon envisioning a sort of a claw but not sure what it would do. Give them the hit and run ability, so we have essentially an extremely elusive infrantry and light vehicle assault troop.

Just my two cents, i know this would be a major reconception of the hawks that we know but really the hawks that we know aren't the greatest thing to begin with.

@Oriallis - I think this is probably the best way forward, unlike a lot of the units that just need minor changes, I think the only really way to make the Hawks a different and viable choice would be to just start from scratch again. Now that we have more of an idea what we think the other FA choices should behave like we should be able to fill the gap with them.

As I see it, SSpears are TEQ/MC hunters, Warp Spiders are a general harassment unit, vypers are a fast platform for heavy weapons. As I see it what is missing is a quick MEQ or GEQ killer.

If we were going to theme them around actual hawks I'd agree with Hit and Run, maybe deep striking into combat, rending? Exarch has power claws (I'm thinking like zagstruk (sp?) the ork storm boy character) maybe give Baharroth the ability to allocate any wounds he inflicts rather than the opponent doing it?

Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack - These leg-mounted grenades are used as shock weapons when assaulting enemy positions. In a phase in which the unit with these grenades are assaulting, the Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack count as offensive grenades and will negate any reactive ability the unit being assaulted has, such as defensive grenades or counter-assault.

Lasblaster - 12" S6 Ap 2 Assault 1 Lance
Vorpal Blades - close combat weapon, forces enemy to re-roll successful armour saves.*

Standard Swooping Hawk kit = Haywire Grenades, Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack, Lasblaster, Shuriken Pistol, Vorpal Blades.

Standard abilities = Deep Strike, Jump Pack, Hit and Run, Move Through Cover**, Fleet of Foot

Exarch Abilities = Sky Leap (turbo-boost), Fell Swoop (Hit and Run moves up to full 18" rather than rolling)

* I envision these to be a go-between for Power Weapons and normal Close Combat Weapons. Typically given to Storm Guardians.
** I envision Move Through Cover to be an Eldar army-wide ability.

Here's an idea for an Exarch weapon, sort of like a way for the unit to cut down on the retaliation before running.

Name- Talon blade

Ability- +1 Attacks, vorpal
for every unsaved wound an enemy suffers in assault the unit must take an inititive test, for every failed test the unit loses 1d3 attack in that assault.

Almost like a hawk swooping down on an enemy with little to no fear of retaliation, mostly a way to avoid the constant problem of being buried alive by Ork squads before being able to run away

Right, a quick rundown of what we've covered so far and what is still left to sort out:

HQ:
Autarch - Done
Farseer/SeerCouncil - Done?
Avatar - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Hoec - Done
Eldrad - Not covered
Iyana - Done
Biel Tan guy - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Nahadu (sp?) - Done

Troop:
Dire Avengers - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Guardians - Done
Rangers - Done?
Jetbikes - Done?

Elite:
Howling Banshees - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Striking Scorpions - Not covered
Fire Dragons - Done
Harlequins - Done?
Wraithguard - Done?

Fast Attack:
Warp Spiders - Done?
Swooping Hawks - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Shining Spears - Done?
Vypers - Done?

Heavy Support:
Dark Reapers - Done?
Wraithlords - Not covered
Fire Prism/Night Spinner - Done
War Walker - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpent - Done
Falcon - Discussed but no real conculsion made


Distributing the units in these FOC slots leaves them with a fairly even spread of units in each section.
As the discussion seems to be slowing down at the moment I'll try to compile everything we've covered so far and get it all written up.
Any suggestions for shuffling the units around or anything I've missed?

I have been thinking about the Eldar Codex, and I came up with a device for having a general phoenix lord (e.g. master exarch) vs. an Elder Phoenix Lord (e.g. the Named Phoenix Lords).

Its equivelent would be Marneus Calgar vs. Chapter Master. One is a Chapter Master (of the Ultramarines) the other is a Chapter Master (of unnamed Chapter).

dralend wrote:I have been thinking about the Eldar Codex, and I came up with a device for having a general phoenix lord (e.g. master exarch) vs. an Elder Phoenix Lord (e.g. the Named Phoenix Lords).

Its equivelent would be Marneus Calgar vs. Chapter Master. One is a Chapter Master (of the Ultramarines) the other is a Chapter Master (of unnamed Chapter).

I like the idea of a master exarch, but perhaps that would make the Autarch a little too "over-shadowed". But I do find it quite interesting, yes. Master/High Exarch... I've always thought Exarches should be more like the high priestes of their shrine, not just sergeants of a squad.

Also, gorechild, weren't vypers supposed to be added to jetbikes? Or did we delete that idea?
And also, could you put that list on the first page, and maybe also add links on it for tha page were the start of their discussion started? Hmm, maybe that last thing is a bit much...

For the Phoenix Lord (Master Exarchs) idea and for Asurmen, Jain-Zar, Kharandras, Baharroth, Fuegan and Maugan Ra.

Phoenix Stones: Each Phoenix lord carries a special set of spirit stones that are attuned to him. These ancient Eldar artifacts, known as Phoenix Stones, serve to resurrect a Phoenix Lord should he fall in battle. If a Phoenix Lord falls in combat. The Controlling player may roll a d6. On a roll of 5+ the Phoenix Lord rises anew (with one wound remaining) in a halo of fire. Center a Large Blast template over the Phoenix Lord. All models caught beneath the template take a single Strength 5 hit at AP 4, the Phoenix Lord himself is unaffected.
If by evil chance the Phoenix Lord fails to return or falls anew in combat, leave the model on the table. For the rest of the game, all Eldar units of the same Aspect as the Phoenix Lord gain the Fearless special rule. If the mission uses objectives, the Phoenix Lord’s remains are counted as an additional objective. If the mission uses kill points, the Eldar player forfeits an extra d3 kill points unless he has a model within 2” of the Phoenix Lord at the end of the game.

This was to rationalize the ressurection of the Ancient Phoenix Lords in a Rules format. I admit to having a bit of a "phoenix" frenzy with the fiery ressurection and all.

If we want a name change we might go with Phoenix Guard or Phoenix Knights.

Alot of the above rule was founded in Bjorn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saintspirit wrote:

dralend wrote:I have been thinking about the Eldar Codex, and I came up with a device for having a general phoenix lord (e.g. master exarch) vs. an Elder Phoenix Lord (e.g. the Named Phoenix Lords).

Its equivelent would be Marneus Calgar vs. Chapter Master. One is a Chapter Master (of the Ultramarines) the other is a Chapter Master (of unnamed Chapter).

I like the idea of a master exarch, but perhaps that would make the Autarch a little too "over-shadowed". But I do find it quite interesting, yes. Master/High Exarch... I've always thought Exarches should be more like the high priestes of their shrine, not just sergeants of a squad.

It is especially true that there might be a Heirarchy of Exarchs.

Saintspirit wrote:

dralend wrote:I have been thinking about the Eldar Codex, and I came up with a device for having a general phoenix lord (e.g. master exarch) vs. an Elder Phoenix Lord (e.g. the Named Phoenix Lords).

Its equivelent would be Marneus Calgar vs. Chapter Master. One is a Chapter Master (of the Ultramarines) the other is a Chapter Master (of unnamed Chapter).

I like the idea of a master exarch, but perhaps that would make the Autarch a little too "over-shadowed". But I do find it quite interesting, yes. Master/High Exarch... I've always thought Exarches should be more like the high priestes of their shrine, not just sergeants of a squad.

Also, gorechild, weren't vypers supposed to be added to jetbikes? Or did we delete that idea?
And also, could you put that list on the first page, and maybe also add links on it for tha page were the start of their discussion started? Hmm, maybe that last thing is a bit much...

No, Vypers were discussed becoming Type: Jetbikes, they weren't really discussed as being added to Guardian Jetbikes, as far as I know.

Saintspirit wrote: gorechild, weren't vypers supposed to be added to jetbikes? Or did we delete that idea?
And also, could you put that list on the first page, and maybe also add links on it for tha page were the start of their discussion started? Hmm, maybe that last thing is a bit much...

I was going with the T5 jetbike style Vypers, just as their own unit. I wasn't certain if that was a popular choice or not though, hence the "?"
We did have a look at having them as upgrade models for GJB squads, but i think they are best kept seperate.
I was going to slowly compile them into 1 uber post to help me with writing them up, But I'll move that summary into the 1st post now aswell.

Swooping Hawks - XXX Points

-------------------------WS---BS--S--T--I--A--W--Ld-- Sv
Swooping Hawk------4-----4----3--3--6--1---1---8---4+
Exarch-----------------5-----5----3--3--7-2---1---9----3+

Unit Size: 1 Exarch and 4 Swooping Hawks
Up to 5 Additional Swooping hawks may be purchased for XX points per model

Unit Type: Jump Infantry

Wargear: Hawk Wings, Lasblaster, Grenade Pack, Vorpal Talons
The Exarch may upgrade his Lasblaster to a (don't know name) for XX points and his Vorpal Talons to Crushing Tallons for XX points.

Special Rules: Fleet, Hit and Run
The Exarch may take any of these powers: Skyleap - XX points - The exarch and his unit may move 24" in the movement phase, but cannot shoot or assault in the same turn. Fell Swoop - XX points - When you use Hit and Run the unit automatically moves up to 18" instead of 3D6".

Hawk wings - changes units type to JI
Lasblaster - R12" S3 AP- Assault 3
Grenade Pack - When a unit with a grenade pack moves over an enemy unit they inflict D3 automatic hits. They are resolved at S4 AP- against a non vehicle unit, or glance a vehicle on a 4+ and penetrate on a 6.
Vorpal Tallons - Enemy must re-roll sucessful armour saves
(exarch gun) - R12" S4 AP5 Assault 4
Crushing Talons - Power weapon, wounds inflicted by Crushing talons are allocated by the controling player.

Yes, no or maybe?

Hmm, I like this actually. Makes for some nice harassment.
The Exarch gun could be called Skyblaster or perhaps Hawk's Wrath.
Also, I think the normal CCW should be called Hawk Talons or just Talons, while the Exarch CCW could be Vorpal Talons or something likely. But I don't like Crushing Talons. In any case, Vorpal/whatever Talons should give +1 attack (the Exarxh does have one on each hand, right?)

And about the Phoenix Lord and Master Exarch problem together with the over-filled HQ part, maybe just make a SC choice "Phoenix Lord" and give the names as an (obligatory) upgrade? That would give at least some space, I guess... Or if we just should remove the Phoenix lords...

Maugan Ra et al could simply be name characters, while Phoenix Lords require a mandatory "shrine" upgrade. This would go well with upgrading or replacing a normal exarch, thus the Phoenix Lord may give the unit some local buffs as well.

Naturally this makes the awesome shock effect of Fuegan in an Apocalypse game as demonstrated in the GW battle report lessened.

Regarding Falcons as transport: They are currently very similar to Wave Serpents. If Wave Serpents were made Assault Vehicles and Falcons could shoot two heavy weapons at combat speed, this would distinguish them.
The risk is that the new gun-boat Falcon would even more encourage DAVU, so it would have to go with enforced Exarchs etc. Preferably all Eldar infantry would have some form of special rule which made them better when walking, so that mechanization is a choice rather than a requirement.

Do you want a refined Idea then. It would take me a couple of days to reorganize my notes but I could do it. I don't believe getting rid of the Phoenix Lords (as they are in current codex) is a wise Idea, personally. But I could work them into something

Well, iterating ideas is what the thread is all about. Or at least what I am all about.

Personally I don't care much for Phoenix Lords, but that's because I have a profound dislike for named hero characters. I wouldn't mind more faceless or generic Phoenix Lords, maybe not toned down so much as adapted to be the shrine leader of the craftworld - sort of on the same level as an Avatar, more special than a Farseer or an Autarch, but less special than Eldrad and Yriel.

Just something I thought I'd add to the hawks:
Since they are harassment units, I think the Exarch should have the possibility to buy a Sunburst Cannon (basically a Heavy Flamer, maybe with some stat changes).
Template S3 Ap4 Assault 1?

And about the phoenix lords... No, I have no idea what to do with them. I'd really prefer our SC:s to be Eldrad, Hoec, Iyanna and so on, but at the same time they are an important part of the Eldar background.

Saintspirit wrote:Just something I thought I'd add to the hawks:
Since they are harassment units, I think the Exarch should have the possibility to buy a Sunburst Cannon (basically a Heavy Flamer, maybe with some stat changes).
Template S3 Ap4 Assault 1?

And about the phoenix lords... No, I have no idea what to do with them. I'd really prefer our SC:s to be Eldrad, Hoec, Iyanna and so on, but at the same time they are an important part of the Eldar background.

My suggestion was just a "get the ball rolling" post, so feel free to change anything else, I just put down the only thing I could think of theat was different from what we've already got going in the FA slot.

about the PL's, I agrre with having the craftworld specific SC's in favour of he pheonix lords. I can't see a whole lot of variation being possible with the pheonix lords aside from basically having a whole army of their aspect. I think having them as a unit upgrade ("one fire dragon exarch may be upgraded to Fuegan for 45 points, this unit may re-reroll any vehicle damage chart results and also counts as scoring as long as Fuegan is on the board") will give us more breathing space in the HQ slot, stop them randomly joining other aspects and give them a really useful role in the army.

The thing here is that PL:s are frikkin' demi-gods. Really, I'd prefer to just have them in Apocalypse, powered up.
And instead of PL:s in the regular codex, make it possible to upgrade one exarch in the army to Shrine Keeper or whatever, which is just a better exarch and that makes his/her unit scoring.