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Zweischneid wrote:Death Company, Death Company Dreads, Fast Rhino-based tanks, Jump Infantry as troops, Sanguinary Priests, Jump Infantry Command Squads. Sanguinary Guard, Librarian Dreads, Blood-Angel unique psychic powers, Red Rage special rules,DoA special rules, loads of unique special characters, etc.. .

There's buckets of stuff that make Blood Angels unique and that clearly belong with "Blood Angels only!". Same can definitly be said for Grey Knights. However, flyers being rolled out to most armies in the game isn't something that seems to be unique to these armies. Just because there are some things that are currently in a few codexes that would be great if available more widely, doesn't mean all differences get hammered out. You're clearly overreacting.

I guess I just don't understand the whole Marine mentality, to me, wanting a stormraven in the vanilla book is no different to wanting wave serpents for my Dark Eldar. If you want those units, you play the corresponding codex. All marines have jump infantry, it's nothing special, the fact that fancy jump infantry and scoring jump infantry means they deserve a new codex is what annoys so many non-marine players. At least the Stormraven (and dreadknight for GK's) are strikingly different and make it visually clear (beyond being painted a different colour) that they are very different armies.

Zweischneid wrote:So, assuming that a) Blood Angels and Grey Knights remain distinct armies (Death Company, Dreadknights, etc..), b) all 40K armies are gonna get some Flyer sooner or later, c) it would be good to see Stormraven being rolled out to all Marines.

Point A is a given, as much as some people complain about it, all the Marine variants will stay as they are. B is an assumption, although the last few books have all had them doesn't mean they all should. Personally I dont think all codecies sholld have fliers. C is the only thing relavent to this thread.

Zweischneid wrote:I would actually prefer it to be the Stormraven, because a) it's a brilliant model and the fugly DarkWingDuck-flyer DE got shows that GW cannot always be relied on to produce a hit

I'm sure there are a LOT more people out there that think the "chibi-hawk" is a worse sculpt than the Razorwing Jetfighter, I actually think you're the first person I've come across anywhere that hates the Razorwing. Each to their own I guess.

Zweischneid wrote:b) I'd rather they pour their energies into Ork, Nid, Necron, Tau, whathaveyouflyer than design 20 different flyers for Space Marines who now already have an absolutely brilliant kit.

And I'm the one over reacting? I'd also prefer them to spend their time on other Xeno/Chaos kits, but this thread isn't about if we think GW would have to design another flyer for C:SM, and I'm not saying I'd want them to make a different flyer. I just don't like the idea of taking one of the genuinely different models in a Marine codex and giving it to the vanilla book.

I don't see why other SM chapters should get the Storrmraven. The Stormraven gives the BA some nice flavor and it makes sense for the GK to have any vehicle that any other SM chapter has access to. I see no reason why the Stormraven should be in Codex: Space Marines or any other SM book. They could make up other different flyers for the other chapters though if they really wanted them to.

Grey Templar wrote:There is quite abit of difference between a GK stormraven and a BA one.

the BA one has Bloodstrike missiles which are > Mindstrike missiles

the GK one can get Psybolts and has Fortitude


I am sure they could find some way to differentiate a Smurf one too.

Calgar hanging from the magna grapple punching avatars.

back on topic yes SM's DA BT SW need flyers of some sort as do the tau nids eldar crons and chaos

personally i'd like an air superiorority fighter (land speeder tempest(assault cannon and AAmount typhoon)), a tank hunting version (Tsunami)(mounting assault cannon and twin-linked lascannons) and a infantry hunter (blizzard)(3 assault cannon)

each has an advantage
i'd love to field a blizzard against blob guard

I would like a Stormraven, yes please!

I think flyer's should have never been introduced to regular games of 40K. They should have been left as an Apocalypse only unit or GW should have made a separate expansion to use them in regular games, something akin to Spearhead.

The monkey is out of its cage now so to answer the OP... Yes, Space Marines should have access to it.

If it was a Blood Angels only unit then I'd say no, I could then think of it along the lines of the Baal Predator where only the Blood Angels possess the STC. The fact that the Grey Knights use it too means that the STC should be accessible by all chapters and all chapter should be able to utilize them. I believe this should apply to Librarian Dreadnoughts and Chaplain Dreadnoughts as well.

oni wrote:I think flyer's should have never been introduced to regular games of 40K. They should have been left as an Apocalypse only unit or GW should have made a separate expansion to use them in regular games, something akin to Spearhead.

The monkey is out of its cage now so to answer the OP... Yes, Space Marines should have access to it.

If it was a Blood Angels only unit then I'd say no, I could then think of it along the lines of the Baal Predator where only the Blood Angels possess the STC. The fact that the Grey Knights use it too means that the STC should be accessible by all chapters and all chapter should be able to utilize them. I believe this should apply to Librarian Dreadnoughts and Chaplain Dreadnoughts as well.

I remember when this happened to the Black Templars and the Dark Angels for the 5th ed Marine codex. It pretty much meant that those two armies were not updated.

ShatteredBlade wrote:
I remember when this happened to the Black Templars and the Dark Angels for the 5th ed Marine codex. It pretty much meant that those two armies were not updated.

A) Space Wolves, Blood Angels (sans PDF) and Grey Knights had far older books than either Templars or Dark Angels before they got their updates. Noone there jumped a queue.

B) The LR Crusader had been available to all chapters from the first second it was produced, though its "fluff" pointed at its Black Templar origins.

C) It happened to Ultramarines too in 2nd Edition, when all Codexes after the Ultramarine one suddenly had the stuff published there first (Razorbacks, Bikes, Wirlwinds, Landspeeders, Veteran Squads, etc..). And "it" happened again in 5th Edition when Blood Angels suddenly had Vanilla-Marine-First like Stern-/Vanguard, Scoutbikes, etc... . Just because it is published someplace first (has to be); doesn't mean it's automatically intended to never appear anywhere else. Sometimes it is exclusive (e.g. Death Company, Thunderwolves). Sometimes, it just happens to be in one book first because the model or the idea didn't exist earlier.

Just Dave wrote:Simple really, in your opinion, should the next Space Marine Codex include the Stormraven?*

*Obviously having replaced Bloodstrike Missiles etc.

Stormravens are a perfect example of the foolishness that is GW's thinking. By putting out so many different marine force lists, by the time they get to number 4 or 5 the designers are itching to add "something cool!". Thus we get the stormraven. Now 2 marine based forces get them, but no others do which is just stupid. On top of that it is ridiculously overarmed and overpowered for a landing craft. If you have a single marine codex it avoids the silliness that becomes the stormraven in its current incarnation.

I think all marines should have them and I also think they should be toned down a lot too.

Skriker


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Red Comet wrote:I don't see why other SM chapters should get the Storrmraven. The Stormraven gives the BA some nice flavor and it makes sense for the GK to have any vehicle that any other SM chapter has access to. I see no reason why the Stormraven should be in Codex: Space Marines or any other SM book. They could make up other different flyers for the other chapters though if they really wanted them to.

Yeah just what we need are the 40k designers spending more time coming up with completely different flyers for the various marine forces. While we're at it why not completely different tanks too. Then *everyone* can play space marines because no other books will be getting worked on anyway.

Skriker

Yes, because adding one or two signature units to a Codex to create a different playstyle is totally going to push every single other book back.

GW is currently working on a new flyer that is inbetween a Thunderhawk & Stormraven.... You were aware of that, right?

Bull

H.B.M.C. wrote:No. Salamanders and Blood Ravens should only have them.

I see what you did there.

They should also add in rules that make it a flyer, or mostly like a flyer. It's really dumb that you can assault that, or the Valkery.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:They should also add in rules that make it a flyer, or mostly like a flyer. It's really dumb that you can assault that, or the Valkery.

Just wait till 6th edition. It'll become a Flyer in time.

Grey Templar wrote:Bull

Really.

see

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/418612.page

It is thought to be the Hawkwing as mentioned in 2 Horus Heresy novels....


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http://www.lski.org/pictures/tabletopgaming/40K%20Fiction/WH40K%20-%20Horus%20Heresy/pdf/HH09a%20-%20Kyme%20&%20Priestley%20-%20Tales%20of%20Heresy.pdf

THE HORUS HERESY. ...... 'I believe Horus Lupercal is unsound,' said Constantin. 'Un- .... As the Hawkwing adjusted for its final approach, its trans- ...

The HAWKWING
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"AS IT TURNED, the craft caught the sun across its silver fuselage
and shone like a brief star in the mauve reaches of the upper atmosphere.
A civilian-pattern Hawkwing, registered to Fancile et
Cie, operating out of the Zeon-Ind orbital, it was just another
transport coming in along the signal pulse of the Planalto Central
traffic beacon.
The flying machine, an orbit-capable bird, wore a burnished
metallic skin, and was a wide, elegant shape, like a giant ray or a
skate, with broad, triangular wings and a slender dart of a tail."



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&
"the Hawkwing’s afterburners had folded backduring berthing,"

ShatteredBlade wrote:

oni wrote:I think flyer's should have never been introduced to regular games of 40K. They should have been left as an Apocalypse only unit or GW should have made a separate expansion to use them in regular games, something akin to Spearhead.

The monkey is out of its cage now so to answer the OP... Yes, Space Marines should have access to it.

If it was a Blood Angels only unit then I'd say no, I could then think of it along the lines of the Baal Predator where only the Blood Angels possess the STC. The fact that the Grey Knights use it too means that the STC should be accessible by all chapters and all chapter should be able to utilize them. I believe this should apply to Librarian Dreadnoughts and Chaplain Dreadnoughts as well.

I remember when this happened to the Black Templars and the Dark Angels for the 5th ed Marine codex. It pretty much meant that those two armies were not updated.

There's no such thing as a Flyer in the regular game of 40k, no army has one, so I don't get this comment here.

Bear in mind that we are living in the 41st Millineum, where space travel is possible and there are complete Fleets of Command ships which scour the galaxy. I believe these special Skimmers (Such as Valkyries, Razorwings and Stormravens) are great for the game as it gives it the futuristic feel, and I love how the models stand out from the rest on the tabletop. I have to say the Razorwing is one of the best produced vehicle kits that I have ever seen, and I hope GW keeps making these special skimmers for the future and puts quite a few in the next Tau Codex!

I'm pretty positive that SM will end up with a flyer. Stormraven but weaker version perhaps? Just because they have access to things like thunderfire cannons (which are actually quite good for what you pay for btw, don't knock the thing, it's actually good).

At least GK lack alot of the other options like drop pods, predators, and vindicators so there's some flavor differences.

Surtur wrote:I see what you did there.

Really? What did you see me do?


The point I was actually making that the Chapters that 'should' have Storm Raven are meaningless, because no one 'should' have it and no one 'should not' have it. Who has it is arbitrary, and will be dictated by a battle between the studio guys (who say they don't want to because they don't want to homogenise the Marine lists) and the bean-counters (who would want to cross-sell it into other armies). Given that the last time something like this came up we ended up with 'Generic Daemons' and a Daemons Codex, I'm gonna say the bean-counters will probably win.

I am not sure there is a battle. I mean, there clearly were new things in the Blood Angels book that were never meant to hit another Codex. Sanguinary Guard for one. The various new Dreads for another.

But already in the Blood Angels books, they knew the Stormraven would not be exclusive to Blood Angels and forshadowed it's appearance in the next Marine Dex up the pipeline.. Grey Knights. Now, it has appeared in two consecutive Marine Books that could not, as far as Marines go, be more different. There is no indication why it should stop there. The fact that it appeared in Blood Angels first (and Grey Knights) after that is just an arbitrary happenstance of timing. Had the Stormraven been ready a year earlier, it would have been in the Wolves Codex already. Had it been stuck in development hell a bit longer, we might not have seen it until Grey Knights. But the fact that it did, infact, appear in two Marine books back-to-back seems a pretty clear pointer where it is going.

Oh, and it's name clearly builds on the Storm-Thunder-Lighting-Hurricane-Typhoon-Whirlwind-Bad-Weather-theme indicative of generic Marine stuff, rather than something specific to Blood Angels or Grey Knights aside from the armament.

Zweischneid wrote:Oh, and it's name clearly builds on the Storm-Thunder-Lighting-Hurricane-Typhoon-Whirlwind-Bad-Weather-theme indicative of generic Marine stuff, rather than something specific to Blood Angels or Grey Knights aside from the armament.

It's naming convention is more a direct similarity to the Thunderhawk with (Storm related weather)(Bird) convention. I do have to agree with the rest of your post though, we even knew that GKs were going to get the Stormraven just from the packaging, the back of the box clearly shows one painted in GK colours and the kit comes with GK icons to put on the model.

Since the Stormraven is a direct miniturization of the Thunderhawk (which along with the Rhino is probably the most common SM vehicle) I would not be surprised to see it end up in the other codecies, or at least the vanilla one. I would rather see something different personally.

I think there should be a different aerial transport that isn't an assault vehicle.

Except such a vehicle wouldn't fit in with the Space Marine style of warfare.

The Stormraven is a fast assault vehicle, a smaller version of the Thunderhawk. it makes perfect sense(from a tactical point of view)


A simple air transport suits the IG better(hence, Valks and Vendettas)

The Stormraven really is just a confused vehicle.

It has missiles and meltaguns, assault cannons and storm bolters. It's trying too hard to be too many things.

Its a gunship. Stormraven Gunship. But it has passenger space. Same way a copter has a little passenger space.


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And it has MM and Hurricaine Bolters. Not storm and meltaguns.

Either way, it's a confused beast.

You realize that GW is making (just that) a flyer in between the thunderhawk (a gunship & transport) & the stormraven (a gunship) that will be more transport...less gunship... GW was said to have a mentioned this several months ago.

I think they shouldn't be in the next marine dex. Keep it BA/GK. Then I won't have to worry about Lysander and 10 Sternguard bailing from it.

Grey Templar wrote:Except such a vehicle wouldn't fit in with the Space Marine style of warfare.

The Stormraven is a fast assault vehicle, a smaller version of the Thunderhawk. it makes perfect sense(from a tactical point of view)


A simple air transport suits the IG better(hence, Valks and Vendettas)

Why? Rhinos 'n' Razorbacks aren't assault vehicles.

For the sake of differentiation, I think an 'in-between' Stormravens and Thunderhawks would be fine. Just say it's primarily a support platform that deploys Rhinos or something... (not thinking about balance here )

If it were larger than a Stormraven and the ramps a little bit bigger 'n' more unwieldy, I'd believe that it wouldn't be able to just swoop in at low altitude and the marines leap out into a charge like they can out of the teeny weeny 'raven.


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Edit: Fire points maybe? Higher armour value?

Rhino's and Razorbacks are only going to be used in extended combat zones.

And if Marines need air transport they have Thunderhawks and Stormravens. They are excellent transports as well as assault vehicles, why have something thats even less versetile when you already have something that does the job?

Yes, I think it should be in the dex, but it should cost more because its not very common.

Ingame and fluff.