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aka_mythos wrote:GW has shown how to do non-cohesive units with Inquisitorial Henchmen and DE beastmasters as well as others, and I'm hoping they try to bring that into the Possessed. It would make far more sense for predefine possessed archetypes representing specific types of mutations are purchased bring to the unit not just their own particular stats but rules that contribute to the unit. And going back to my original point GW has managed to make many of these non-uniform units have enough of a cohesive appearance as to look like they belong together.

Actually I think that is a good idea and a good way to make them more interesting rules wise. If you could choose from a couple of different predetermined categories of mutations, costing different amount of points, you could eliminate the randomness and also have a good reason for at more coherent looking unit.
For example you could give a number of Posessed in a unit poison 3+ for something like a couple of points per guy you choose to give it to, and have this represented by poisonous fangs, claws, etc.
GW might actually go this way, as they have already found out from GK that making elite units have a lot of choice is a good idea.


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Samus_aran115 wrote:

candy.man wrote:Whilst I think the current possessed kit is pretty good and has some great conversion bits to not necessarily warrant replacing, I’ll will also agree that the kit itself is somewhat flawed.

The problem I think is that a lot of the pieces are somewhat goofy (goofy grins and goofy poses) and don’t really resemble any of the 40k daemons/daemonic mutations I’m familiar with. If anything, they look more like “Tyranid” mutations rather than “Chaos Daemon” mutations.

Ideally, if the kit was redone, they would need to have bits to make the bits look more menacing. The mutation bits themselves would need to better resemble Chaos Daemons in terms of style. Interestingly enough, I reckon GW could meet us halfway and just an additional frame to the current possessed sprue to give more modelling choices as well as wargear options (if 6E possessed has them)

That'd be pretty good. I could see that working. More upgrade sprues could easily be a solution to a lot of old chaos kits like the terminators

Again a really good solution, both for GW and for us. If they spend time on completely reworking the current plastic kits, we will probably not see many new models, so releasing legion or allignment specific plastic upgrade sprues for CSM and Terminators, like FW did some years ago(Death Guard, World Eaters), just in plastic and with all factions. This solution would be so quick that they also would have time to release serveral new kits and update the important metal ones, like Havocs and Obliterators.

Slayer le boucher wrote:
Plastic you have the feel that it could sustain heavy pressure before snapping, wich is reassuring, but Finecast...

You "feel" and "reassuring"...I think this line underscores 90% of peoples concern for Finecast materially, in the sense you demonstrate its largely psychological and not based on any emperical consideration.

I don't think we need to derail another thread on this subject, but its simply "strong enough" and its weight and flexibility are its greatest strengths. Its an elastic material so it won't dent as easily, its light so it won't fall apart under its own weight. Is it plastic?-No but at the lower sales volume of finecast, if you could magically do them in plastic would end up costing you twice as much, just because of the distributed cost of the molds. If 90's popculture taught us anything, sometimes good enough is good enough.

Bonde wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

candy.man wrote:Whilst I think the current possessed kit is pretty good and has some great conversion bits to not necessarily warrant replacing, I’ll will also agree that the kit itself is somewhat flawed.

The problem I think is that a lot of the pieces are somewhat goofy (goofy grins and goofy poses) and don’t really resemble any of the 40k daemons/daemonic mutations I’m familiar with. If anything, they look more like “Tyranid” mutations rather than “Chaos Daemon” mutations.

Ideally, if the kit was redone, they would need to have bits to make the bits look more menacing. The mutation bits themselves would need to better resemble Chaos Daemons in terms of style. Interestingly enough, I reckon GW could meet us halfway and just an additional frame to the current possessed sprue to give more modelling choices as well as wargear options (if 6E possessed has them)

That'd be pretty good. I could see that working. More upgrade sprues could easily be a solution to a lot of old chaos kits like the terminators

Again a really good solution, both for GW and for us. If they spend time on completely reworking the current plastic kits, we will probably not see many new models, so releasing legion or allignment specific plastic upgrade sprues for CSM and Terminators, like FW did some years ago(Death Guard, World Eaters), just in plastic and with all factions. This solution would be so quick that they also would have time to release serveral new kits and update the important metal ones, like Havocs and Obliterators.

You can still buy the old mutation sprue. I love the head that's splitting into two, and the club arm They're so classic!

Excuse me, boyd... you included me as saying something I didn't say.

Boyd: Why only quote without a personal comment, and then get the quotes mixed up? Whats that supposed to convey?

tarnish wrote:Boyd: Why only quote without a personal comment, and then get the quotes mixed up? Whats that supposed to convey?

It was a mistake, lol. He probably started typing and didn't realize the /quote was in front of him

Bonde wrote:
I don't know but the mutations in that box set were miles apart from the old mutations sprue. Thats just my opinion at least. I've used the heads, shoulder pads, wings (for my raptors) and arms on marines all over my force. I do agree they need to revamp the HW for Chaos as they haven't seen new models since 2nd edition.

The Havocs are a 3rd ed kit, so they're not as old as the 2nd ed stuff Chaos has (dreadnoughts namely) but they're still horrible hybrid kits from hell. I like the designs for the most part but metal bits are a nightmare.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

tarnish wrote:Boyd: Why only quote without a personal comment, and then get the quotes mixed up? Whats that supposed to convey?

It was a mistake, lol. He probably started typing and didn't realize the /quote was in front of him

Ill poke away until he finds the edit button or answers that himself

Rule wise, I can only the henchmen/mixed bag approach work if the kit was redone with predefined types of possessed being established in the profile. This is sort of too much effort for little gain. Knowing GW, they would probably discontinue the current possessed box and offer new individual blisters in finecast to capitalise on sales.

Personally, if I were to redesign possessed, I’d make their profiles a hybrid between Death Company and 3.5 possessed. They would be able to choose what possessed upgrades they want (like 3.5 possessed) but at the same time would also have inbuilt USRs in their profile (fearless & FNP) as well as being able to by close combat weapon upgrades (like Deathcompany). To mix things up a bit, I’d also use unique bufs for the possessed upgrades instead of USRs.

Theyre unlikely to drop an existing plastic kit (possessed) as it wont have made back its sunk costs as yet

Id expect no change in kit, simple economics

nosferatu1001 wrote:Theyre unlikely to drop an existing plastic kit (possessed) as it wont have made back its sunk costs as yet

Id expect no change in kit, simple economics

Sunk costs... those are by definition expenses where there are no expectations of making back what they cost. So if GW were to have written off the plastic kit as a sunk cost, that is to admit that kits financial failure and inability to sell enough to every be worth while. This is exactly when GW would want to redesign a kit, or add to it, to try and sell it better. If the kit can't make money, and its a sunk cost, you're crazy to continue to produce; you'd be throwing good money after bad, when there is zero percent chance of every making it back.

Castiel wrote:Its based off this:



Edit, found better picture.

Insects. Although it does look rather weird.

...yes, thank you. I was talking about the big stupid grin, though.

AKA - erm, no. Sunk costs are past expenditures that have already been incurred, so there is no way to recover any expenses from it (as i doubt you can salvage a sprue mould....)

When one determines something is a "sunk cost" its a retrospective determination that you can't make back that investment. That part is semantic.

The main point is, regardless of the money GW's spent, if a kit isn't selling well enough to pay off the investment and make a reasonable return, they shouldn't continue funding it.

tarnish wrote:Boyd: Why only quote without a personal comment, and then get the quotes mixed up? Whats that supposed to convey?

Fix't

Or they could simply make a rule change so they're not awful as they have been for 2 editions.. Models that have decent rules sell kits, it's a fact that Im amazed GW hasn't gotten yet (I'll never understand why they put total garbage units in books)

Brother SRM wrote:

Bonde wrote:
I don't know but the mutations in that box set were miles apart from the old mutations sprue. Thats just my opinion at least. I've used the heads, shoulder pads, wings (for my raptors) and arms on marines all over my force. I do agree they need to revamp the HW for Chaos as they haven't seen new models since 2nd edition.

The Havocs are a 3rd ed kit, so they're not as old as the 2nd ed stuff Chaos has (dreadnoughts namely) but they're still horrible hybrid kits from hell. I like the designs for the most part but metal bits are a nightmare.

That was me - I thought the auto cannons were still the 2nd edition scuplt which came out the quarter before 3rd edition. Thats when I started buying my chaos marine heavies at least. I only recently updated and bought into the new Obliterators as the old ones were just fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tarnish wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

tarnish wrote:Boyd: Why only quote without a personal comment, and then get the quotes mixed up? Whats that supposed to convey?

It was a mistake, lol. He probably started typing and didn't realize the /quote was in front of him

Ill poke away until he finds the edit button or answers that himself

You can poke me or PM me all you want, I only check the site on my lunch break or when I'm working out of town in the evenings Otherwise, I check the post within the next day or two. Good thing it wasn't a weekend or it wouldn't get changed until Monday

aka_mythos wrote:When one determines something is a "sunk cost" its a retrospective determination that you can't make back that investment. That part is semantic.

The main point is, regardless of the money GW's spent, if a kit isn't selling well enough to pay off the investment and make a reasonable return, they shouldn't continue funding it.

I love how you are making these outlandish claims. First how do you figure the possessed kit isn't selling well? Second, if they have already "sunk" cost into their initial investment in the form of molds and packaging it makes more sense to continue production until they clime out of the red or until the kit doesn't sell. Now, considering the kit is still available I have to assume it IS selling well enough. Most chaos players a game with, myself included, find that kit invaluable for the bits alone. I can't even count how many sorcerer/raptor conversions I've seen with the wings alone.

In regards to the rules, I don't think just because they are an elite choice merits them needing OP rules or a nonrandom mutation. The rules work fine as is and represent their unpredictable nature, what would you suggest? moving them to troops? Right, because their aren't 5 options and off chart lesser demons already... Oh wait. Just because something resides in a certain spot in the FOC doesn't mean it has to play out like a unit of purifiers ;p If you pigeon hole them and give them a set rule effect or allow to upgrade them however you like then they lose character but also they compete with other units. "hey I want possessed that all fly!" Then just take raptors.

As far as I know, ALL plastic kits sell decently. GW puts a lot of research into the kits that could be converted into plastic, and they make sure they aren't wasting money on it.... In 40k at least. Fantasy has all sorts of dumb plastic kits that aren't necessary. But I'm probably underestimating how many people play fantasy compared to 40k, right?

It seams to me that a plastic tervigon kit would have out-performed the plastic ravenor kit that GW produced instead. Of course this is just my "gut reaction".

wyomingfox wrote:It seams to me that a plastic tervigon kit would have out-performed the plastic ravenor kit that GW produced instead. Of course this is just my "gut reaction".

Yeah, really. I don't know what they were thinking with that one. Ravagers have always been crap The wartrakk, warbuggy and flash gits come to mind as well. And sort of seekers of slaanesh, although those are better in fantasy from what I've heard.

Soooooooooo, back on topic....

Red Corsair wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:When one determines something is a "sunk cost" its a retrospective determination that you can't make back that investment. That part is semantic.

The main point is, regardless of the money GW's spent, if a kit isn't selling well enough to pay off the investment and make a reasonable return, they shouldn't continue funding it.

I love how you are making these outlandish claims. First how do you figure the possessed kit isn't selling well? Second, if they have already "sunk" cost into their initial investment in the form of molds and packaging it makes more sense to continue production until they clime out of the red or until the kit doesn't sell.

First I haven't made outlandish claims they sound a lot like what you're saying, I'm simply including a correction in what I believe was an incorrect choice of words... Everything I said about the cost and sales of Possessed has been proceeded by "if" which means I'm posing a hypothetical situation where sales are poor.

Second, my assertion was that "IF" GW determined it could not climb out of the red on an individual kit, that's when they'd be forced to make a decision to promote sales, by either modifying the kits composition, or replacing it, or as other have said change the rules (ie its marketing). The past costs might motivate their choice, but it shouldn't alter the fact that they should make some choice of some sort.

I'm arguing against a common but false notion, what is called in textbooks the "sunk cost fallacy" it is the irrational belief that just because one has incured a cost in the past, they should exploit it. That the rational thought should be "what will give me the best return in the future?"

My background is R&D program management and while we make investments, declaring something a "sunk cost" carries repercussions and that nomenclature isn't something that is automatically applied to a cost just because it occured in the past, so maybe I'm being overly beauracratic about how I'm reading the phrase. That's why I've tried to emphasize the fact my main point was the part about what prompts a decision making process.

Red Corsair wrote:[
In regards to the rules, I don't think just because they are an elite choice merits them needing OP rules or a nonrandom mutation. The rules work fine as is and represent their unpredictable nature, what would you suggest? moving them to troops? Right, because their aren't 5 options and off chart lesser demons already... Oh wait. Just because something resides in a certain spot in the FOC doesn't mean it has to play out like a unit of purifiers ;p If you pigeon hole them and give them a set rule effect or allow to upgrade them however you like then they lose character but also they compete with other units. "hey I want possessed that all fly!" Then just take raptors.

I'm not saying they should be over powered; I'm saying they should make more sense within the context of the edition and of the codex; to be viable.

I'm not saying "mor power" because they're "elite"... I'm saying there abilities should be in continuity with the spectrum of units that represent similar aspects of chaos; the fact they are "Elite" shoudn't be taken as the justification as much as it should be taken as a sympotm of that continuity. You have lesser daemons and you have daemon princes; one shows lesser daemons on their own, a daemon prince shows how a past mortal achieving daemonhood makes for something impressive. Possessed are somewhere in between; lesser daemons bound to mortal flesh. The sentiment is they should be more than lesser daemons because otherwise why would a daemon ever bind itself to a mortal if not for a gain in power. That GW hasn't taken their concept far enough. There are different ways variaty could be given to the unit and I've commented on them, but its not a proposal and I have no preference towards any particular proposed rule composition others have made. My idea the one I have pushed for is a unit that mirrors the Dark Eldar beastmaster's menagerie of monsters... where you have fixed form archetypes to choose from representing different common possession manifestations, not based on the "big 4", thus allowing for a heterogeneous mixture of possessed with character rather than a homogenous blob with options.

Simply put random rules should be removed not because of "Elite" status they should be removed because they're antiquated.

I'm going to say that if the Possessed aren't selling well - something I'll have to put up a [citation needed] notice next to - then it'll be because of their horrific rules. Rag on Pete Haines all you like, but one of the things he got right with the 3.5 Codex was taking the randomness away from the Possessed and giving them a list of abilities you could buy. It turned a useless unit into one that could hold its own (but had crappy models). Now they're a unit with great models (aside from a few dud grinning head sculpts) but a set of rules that do not do them justice.

GW is always quick to point out that "Chaos =/= Random", yet here we have a unit that is afflicted by Chaos more than any other Chaos unit aside from Daemons and Oblits, and yet they are random.

Personally, when I designed my fandex I made possessed so whilst Random, their randomised abilities were typically more powerful, occured pre-deployment and were all of a similar (CC specialised) vein, whilst you could purchase marks to A) gain the bonus of that Mark of Chaos and/or B) replace the randomised Daemonkin ability with a slightly less powerful version provided by a mark of Chaos (with MoCU benefiting +1 to the Daemonkin chart).
I'm not saying this is the perfect solution, but it seemed to be popular, powerful and balanced, whilst being either: A) Slightly more randomised, but more powerful, or B) slightly more expensive, but reliable. All whilst maintaining a powerful base stat-line and Daemonkin occurring pre-deployment.

Just my view on how Possessed should play.

ghost21 wrote:

Stoic means, that they can't do a sweeping advance or did I misunderstand that?

That's the correct definition as far as I understand. They get something like true grit as well.

They can't rely entirely on the Marks, though, because there are still 5 Legions that don't have a god. I don't see why it can't be done like the 3.5 Chaos dex where you do just pick from the 9 Legions when making your army and pay for it appropriately.

5 legions that don't have a god you say?

Technically, Word Bearers have all gods. I'm not touching Alpha Legion with a barge pole. Night Lords use chaos to cause terror. Iron Warriors worship the dark machine kinda. And, well, Black Legion are kinda the generic we have our toe in each pool.
(...)
Iron Warriors use the dark machine like we use PCs.

Alphas and Iron Warriors don't worship, Word Bearers and Black Legion worship whatever suits them, Night Lords are a bit of a grey area.

Durza wrote:Alphas and Iron Warriors don't worship, Word Bearers and Black Legion worship whatever suits them, Night Lords are a bit of a grey area.

Not presently, fluff can change. The not touching Alpha's with a pole... to me means, they've changed their fluff. I really don't think its hard to draw a connection between the Iron Warrior's and the Dark Mechanicum... its not necessarily "worship" but its something close enough to represent something comparable to the other legions worship. Word Bearers and Black Legion may worship whatever suits them, but to what degree and to what end? Word Bearers institutionally worship all chaos gods equally, while the Black Legion doesn't have an institutionalized focal point and it seems more that they are open to allowing whatever worship aspiring champions want, which tends to be more singular.

aka_mythos wrote:

Durza wrote:Alphas and Iron Warriors don't worship, Word Bearers and Black Legion worship whatever suits them, Night Lords are a bit of a grey area.

Not presently, fluff can change. The not touching Alpha's with a pole... to me means, they've changed their fluff. I really don't think its hard to draw a connection between the Iron Warrior's and the Dark Mechanicum... its not necessarily "worship" but its something close enough to represent something comparable to the other legions worship. Word Bearers and Black Legion may worship whatever suits them, but to what degree and to what end? Word Bearers institutionally worship all chaos gods equally, while the Black Legion doesn't have an institutionalized focal point and it seems more that they are open to allowing whatever worship aspiring champions want, which tends to be more singular.

Yeah like you said.

Back in 2Ed Realm of Chaos, Iron Warriors and Night Lords where Khorne whorshipping Legions,they had the MoK on all their banners and Legion Icons.

Its a proof that things can change with time.

It is of course established for the last 2 Editions that they are strictly Universal Chaos,but that might change who knows?

Also for the Possesed matter, a simple way to make them worth taking is simply to give them 2 Mutations.

At least if you get a mutation you don't like,you always have a second chance to have a usefull one.

When they where able to throw 3 dices for their Mutations, Possesed where a popular unit.

And goofy Mutations?...did you took a look at how mutations looked like in Realm of Chaos books?...you would know what goofy is...

I don't say that all the mutations are good, but calling it goofy...