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candy.man wrote:@Warboss
Now list the amount of loyalist models that have been updated since 2E

Seriously though, most of the current CSM models listed above originated from third edition either as new kits or updates to existing ones. The CSM kit that appeared in 4E is in fact the same one from 3E but with an additional sprue. The two generic Chaos Lord in power armour miniatures that appeared during third edition were the same model, with the second one having an alternate weapon and head sculpted on (the same model was also sculpted as a fantasy Chaos Lord). The Night Lords Hero and Iron Warriors Warsmith appear to have also been sculpted from the same model.

The only 100% new models that came in 4E as far as I am aware was the plastic terminator lord, plastic terminators, plastic possessed, Huron Blackheart, World Eaters Aspiring Champion and Khorne Lord (I listed possessed as a new kit as the previous incarnation of possessed was a mutation frame included with the generic CSM kit, not necessarily a true possessed kit).

Hopefully if CSM get any new kits for 6th, it’s a new kit and not a recycled one. As Vaktathi has sort of said, the current CSM range needs to be “refreshed” IMO given the large legacy presence and lack of change amongst the range since 2E/3E.

The updated chaos versions of the current rhino (and to a lesser extent, the landraider) came near the end of 3rd. The defiler also came out about a year after the chaos codex v2.0 in 3rd edition in the last few months of 3rd. Since the current codex didn't actually include any new vehicles for chaos at all, they didn't get any new kits. So, for the 4th edition codex (which is admittedly bland), they got several new plastic kits, a modified core kit (similar to loyalist marines getting a new accessory sprue), and a few metal models... almost standard (other than the lack of any new vehicles making it on the light side) for a codex redo. My point wasn't that they don't need more stuff replaced and/or added new with a rumored upcoming codex, it was that the "Woe is me!! My army is mostly 2nd edition!" is completely false.

When you get a new codex, you only get a limited amount of new or redone kits to go with it (unless you've been sitting completely unchanged for 10+ years like necrons and dark eldar). Priority for those changes should go to the plastic kits and metal models that need it most and true 2nd edition models should be on the top of that list IMO (abby and kharn specifically). Frankly, I don't see the standard CSM getting a redo when there are many other plastic kits that simply need it a hell of alot more (older cult troops like bezerkers and plague marines). Chaos terminators have a crappy set of options but the kit is nice on detail and they could do with an extra or retooled accessory sprue to give them more standard weapons if they're not getting rolled into one kit with obliterators; a straight up solitary redo is highly unlikely. Throw in the obligatory metal to completely plastic kit changeover (like raptors for instance) and the one or two new releases in plastic form and you've got a full plastic roll out for a new codex (4-6 plastic kits) . GW simply won't redo the entire line so clamoring for it is pointless... on the tiny chance that someone is actually listening on the interwebs for fan feedback advice, we should be picking our battles instead of fighting for every force org choice to be updated.

Wasn't the Vindicator a new kit for last edition?

It was indeed. It was released with Apocalypse, alongside the SM one.

warboss wrote: ... [O]n the tiny chance that someone is actually listening on the interwebs for fan feedback advice, we should be picking our battles instead of fighting for every force org choice to be updated.

Oh, what a wonderful thought that is.

Castiel wrote:It was indeed. It was released with Apocalypse, alongside the SM one.

Then I guess things have been less bleak than presented here (and even less than my rebuttal to the moaning).

CpatTom wrote:

warboss wrote: ... [O]n the tiny chance that someone is actually listening on the interwebs for fan feedback advice, we should be picking our battles instead of fighting for every force org choice to be updated.

Oh, what a wonderful thought that is.

Yeah, I generally file that with Santa and the Tooth Fairy but a man/modeller/40k fanboy can dream!

warboss wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The unfortunate problem with the Chaos minis is that they haven't received serious attention since 2nd edition. So many of chaos' sculpts have been done by new sculptors where the miniatures were their first go at a production piece. So between disappointing sculpts and codex, chaos has been pretty short changed.

General Chaos Marines, Raptors (twice), Obliterators (twice), Defiler, rhino and land raider update accessory sprues, Huron Blackheart, Lucius, Typhus, Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor, Chaos Terminators, greater and lesser daemons (albeit now generic but still remodeled twice nontheless), thousand sons, noise marines, daemon prince (three times!!), possessed marines (twice), chaos spawn, doomrider, chaos lord in power armor (three new model variants), and havocs have all been redone AFTER 2nd edition (mostly in 3rd but a fair amount in 4th and one or two in 5th). While there are a few 2nd edition models (mostly HQ characters and some cult troops), the problem is no where near as bad as you claim. Can they use some updating? Sure (Abaddon and Kharne... I'm looking at you!).. does the majority of the line need it? No.

I think you misunderstood me, I'm saying that the quality of the effort GW's put into Chaos space marines is below par, relative to what other factions got, model wise, during the respective edition. The fact that they have had to redo so many kits is exactly why we don't have more new kits.

The general chaos space marines, the sculptor had openly admitted that the vast majority was just a reworked loyalist tactical squad, with him sculpting new detail and bits and that it was his first kit. It seriously lacks chaos flavor for that reason... every set of chaos space marines that preceded them are more characteristically chaos... GW might as well have done add-on sprues like they had for Space Wolves, black templar, and Dark Angels.

Raptors and Obliterators, the first versions were also early attempts at production pieces by their respective sculptors... the original obliterators weren't even sculpted just alot of sandwiched plasticard. The fact they had to be revisited later on underscores the lack of seriousness that was taken in having so many rookies working on chaos and diverted resources later on in correcting those poor miniatures with newer sculpts.

Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?

Chaos Space Marines, is a set that only has 2 truly unique vehicle kits, the defiler and the chaos dreadnought... GW will have given loyalists 6 plastic dreadnoughts in the time its taken that one of two vehicle kits to be redone. The fact that all the other vehicles are chaos add-on sprue plus a loyalist vehicle, should have been a shortcut to allow GW to do more with Chaos, instead its been a shortcut to do less.

Also, the fact that daemons were split from Chaos Space Marines, greatly diminished the amount of time and effort that went into the Chaos Space Marine miniatures released with that most recent codex; since that choice was made after they started sculpting the miniatures. Chaos Space Marines went from being expected to be happy sharing models with one army to being expected to be happy sharing models with a second... meanwhile unless the rumors are correct I suspect it will only again be used as a crutch to justify putting less effort into Chaos Space Marines.

Vaktathi wrote:

Bonde wrote:Is Kharn really that old? I think he is one of the better looking CSM HQ choices.

IIRC he's a 1995 or 1996 release.

The model in inself is quite nice and would probably benefit quite a bit from a finecast release, but his pose is very 2nd edition.

I also hope that Chaos gets a proper treatment this time around, as I personally feel that their range have to be spiced up with FW stuff to be interesting and unique at all, mostly because all their standard models are either a bit uninspired or just outright outdated. I have been positively suprised by GW recently, with a proper release for both Necrons and Dark Eldar, and even the missing minatures in the fantasy Beastmen range have now been released, so I actually have my hopes up for a proper chaos release if they don't lose steam on the way.

Deathly Angel wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:"Okay, so the bad guys will be ruled by 4 evil gods, and..."
"One of them should totally put boobs on everything!"
"..."
"..."
" brilliant!"

If that's what you think of the concept of Slaanesh, you don't understand it at all.

Sounds about right to me...

aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?

What exactly is wrong with the current ones?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?

What exactly is wrong with the current ones?

They're way better than what possessed used to be, but they're still goofy. Tyranids look dangerous, possessed look clowny. The fact that they are plastic multipose makes none of their poses look cool.

I see the possessed kit more as a sprue of bitz for your other units for that reason to make them look as warped as they should already be.

ph34r wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?

What exactly is wrong with the current ones?

They're way better than what possessed used to be, but they're still goofy. Tyranids look dangerous, possessed look clowny. The fact that they are plastic multipose makes none of their poses look cool.

I have to agree that some of the kit looks silly, but there are some great pieces too. I'd agree with Deathly Angel in seeing it as a box of upgrade parts for other marines.

I actually think the possessed CAN look cool, just takes a bit of work and forethought. I also mixed in a few parts fromt he Forgeworld World Eaters kit and that seemed to help 'em a bit.

ph34r wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?

What exactly is wrong with the current ones?

They're way better than what possessed used to be, but they're still goofy. Tyranids look dangerous, possessed look clowny. The fact that they are plastic multipose makes none of their poses look cool.

Yep pretty much this. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with the indivdual bitz, infact alot of these bits have the sort of detail I think basic chaos space marines should have, but as a kit to represent Possessed they're goofy and lack the type of cohesive appearance needed for a group of models to look like its an actual unit.

aka_mythos wrote:

ph34r wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?

What exactly is wrong with the current ones?

They're way better than what possessed used to be, but they're still goofy. Tyranids look dangerous, possessed look clowny. The fact that they are plastic multipose makes none of their poses look cool.

Yep pretty much this. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with the indivdual bitz, infact alot of these bits have the sort of detail I think basic chaos space marines should have, but as a kit to represent Possessed they're goofy and lack the type of cohesive appearance needed for a group of models to look like its an actual unit.

But they're possessed; they're not supposed to look cohesive. I agree they do look kind of goofy and not that menacing, but they do provide a lot of options and are probably one of the lowest priority to be updated.
That and surely the alternative to plastic multi-post is finecast?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?

What exactly is wrong with the current ones?

Well...um...



Yeah, that.

Sidstyler wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?

What exactly is wrong with the current ones?

Well...um...



Yeah, that.

Its based off this:



Edit, found better picture.

Insects. Although it does look rather weird.

Say CHEESE!

Castiel wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Well...um...

Yeah, that.

Its based off this:

Haven't seen an insect with teeth like that. Looks more like this

I was explaining the four palps sticking out of its face. The teeth are just demon-warped Marine teeth.

EDIT: missed the !

Just Dave wrote:But they're possessed; they're not supposed to look cohesive. I agree they do look kind of goofy and not that menacing, but they do provide a lot of options and are probably one of the lowest priority to be updated.
That and surely the alternative to plastic multi-post is finecast?

First I don't have a problem with finecast, for all its faults I think its easier to work with than metal.

Second, don't get me wrong, I understand they're not suppose to look uniform, but there are ways to make them look like they belong in the same unit and thats what I mean by cohesive.

GW has more problems with possessed than just their non-cohesive appearance. Its this wild unit of chaos marines with a whole slew of different possession manifestations... and whose rules have never really worked. They are frankly one of the least intimidating elite choices both ruleswise and modelwise. I think possessed are a concept that need to be reimagined. They shouldn't just be "boo! I'm scary cause I've got a tentacle, and he has a horns and a wing." Where do they actually fit in. They've always struck me as something that should be more indicative of Aspiring champions and an upgrade than any sort of unit, precisely because they aren't cohesive. They are next of kin to chaos... they should be that intermediate stage of daemon between daemon prince and normal marine, a blending of the advantages of lesser daemons and chaos space marines. How cool would they become if they were rewritten as those who failed to control a daemon weapon in their grab for power.

It is a conflict of concepts that if resolved would help the Possessed unit out immensly. Are they just lesser chaos spawn with power armor or are they more similiar to daemon princes, lesser daemons, and chaos space marines.

GW has shown how to do non-cohesive units with Inquisitorial Henchmen and DE beastmasters as well as others, and I'm hoping they try to bring that into the Possessed. It would make far more sense for predefine possessed archetypes representing specific types of mutations are purchased bring to the unit not just their own particular stats but rules that contribute to the unit. And going back to my original point GW has managed to make many of these non-uniform units have enough of a cohesive appearance as to look like they belong together.

Frankly the kit was designed in this motley crew manner because you roll for a random effect at the start of each game. Having a model to represent each possibility is the easiest/best way to do this. I honestly hope they spend their time else where on units that need it most like the trashy Obliterator models who ACTUALLY get fielded.

As far as the fluff goes, you may want to reread it a bit, lesser rank and file get possessed all the time by lesser demons, they do rituals to provoke the chance it happens. This has nothing to do with being elevated to the status of demon prince or champions bearing mutations as gifts, those are entirely different occurrences. The later two are rewards given directly from the Gods and have nothing to do with possession.

I always liked the idea of possessed and would like to see them become more effective in game. A possibility could be like in 'The First Heretic' when the Gal Vorbak give the impression of becoming stronger and more daemon-like the more they fight, it could work kind of like pain tokens for DE, killing a unit leads to increased stats.

I doubt they will get a new kit but if they did I would quite like them to be larger to give a more imposing image on the battlefield.

Killmaimburnkillmaimburn wrote:I always liked the idea of possessed and would like to see them become more effective in game. A possibility could be like in 'The First Heretic' when the Gal Vorbak give the impression of becoming stronger and more daemon-like the more they fight, it could work kind of like pain tokens for DE, killing a unit leads to increased stats.

I doubt they will get a new kit but if they did I would quite like them to be larger to give a more imposing image on the battlefield.

That's actually a novel idea. I like it. They're already a bit larger than regular CSM due to the mutations sticking out all over the place. I had an idea of using some Possessed bits in a model of The Exalted for a Night Lords counts-as Blood Angels force. He'd be Mephiston

Whilst I think the current possessed kit is pretty good and has some great conversion bits to not necessarily warrant replacing, I’ll will also agree that the kit itself is somewhat flawed.

The problem I think is that a lot of the pieces are somewhat goofy (goofy grins and goofy poses) and don’t really resemble any of the 40k daemons/daemonic mutations I’m familiar with. If anything, they look more like “Tyranid” mutations rather than “Chaos Daemon” mutations.

Ideally, if the kit was redone, they would need to have bits to make the bits look more menacing. The mutation bits themselves would need to better resemble Chaos Daemons in terms of style. Interestingly enough, I reckon GW could meet us halfway and just an additional frame to the current possessed sprue to give more modelling choices as well as wargear options (if 6E possessed has them)

candy.man wrote:Whilst I think the current possessed kit is pretty good and has some great conversion bits to not necessarily warrant replacing, I’ll will also agree that the kit itself is somewhat flawed.

The problem I think is that a lot of the pieces are somewhat goofy (goofy grins and goofy poses) and don’t really resemble any of the 40k daemons/daemonic mutations I’m familiar with. If anything, they look more like “Tyranid” mutations rather than “Chaos Daemon” mutations.

Ideally, if the kit was redone, they would need to have bits to make the bits look more menacing. The mutation bits themselves would need to better resemble Chaos Daemons in terms of style. Interestingly enough, I reckon GW could meet us halfway and just an additional frame to the current possessed sprue to give more modelling choices as well as wargear options (if 6E possessed has them)

That'd be pretty good. I could see that working. More upgrade sprues could easily be a solution to a lot of old chaos kits like the terminators

Red Corsair wrote:
As far as the fluff goes, you may want to reread it a bit, lesser rank and file get possessed all the time by lesser demons, they do rituals to provoke the chance it happens. This has nothing to do with being elevated to the status of demon prince or champions bearing mutations as gifts, those are entirely different occurrences. The later two are rewards given directly from the Gods and have nothing to do with possession.

I understand what you're saying and I wasn't saying that possessed should be like daemon princes... Its more a commentary on the fact that Possessed are an over loaded concept... they are elites, lesser daemons are just troops, amd daemon princes HQ... that there is a discontinuity with regard to that hierarchy of abilities. By virtue of being elite they can't really be rank and file... in general its exposure to the chaos that causes possession and mutation and duration is part of that. Both for that and their categorization as elites, Possessed should have more in common to veterans than being regarded as rank and file who have mutated. I was proposing GW reconsider the notion of Possessed by both better representing aspiring champions as chaos space marines on the the intermediate stage towards daemon princehood... and the more rank and file Possessed being a less random unit that actually is a worthwhile elite choice. As you point out Possessed are Marine+lesser daemon... so why can't their rules be as simple as that as that certainly would make them more elite than they are at present.

aka_mythos wrote: I don't have a problem with finecast, for all its faults I think its easier to work with than metal.

Personnaly, i regret metal minis for some things...

Finecast feels too frail and too light,even compared to plastic minis...

I'm always afraid that i might break the damn mini if i press too hard on it...

Plastic you have the feel that it could sustain heavy pressure before snapping, wich is reassuring, but Finecast...

I just read that about the codex not being written by Ward, and possibly by Kelly.