Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Railguns wrote:Honestly, it always ends up being the same configuration anyway, once people figure out what the optimal configuration is.

But the options inherent in the system are what makes it fun.

Oh, OK, then you can just kiss it goodbye, because what you just described is *exactly* like (pick any of the following) Doctrines / Traits / Craftworlds / Legions.

R.I.P. fun.

EDIT: oh no, first post of new page, must post on topic...

How would GW handle removing biomorphs anyway? Isn't that the whole tyranid "thing"?

If anything I think they will add more options. Same biomorphs, but give tyrants access to +1 T and stuff like that.

Biomorphs are not going anywhere. It's not my responsibility that my opponent doesn't know the rules to my dex...just as it's not my opponents fault if I don't know what a unit does in his army.

Face it, biomorphs are cool!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm more worried about GW making the devourers useless and replacing them wih deathspitters as the weapons of choice on MC's. So much re-modelling it isn't even funny (I don't magnetize).

Double post...my bad

Lukus83 wrote:If anything I think they will add more options. Same biomorphs, but give tyrants access to +1 T and stuff like that.

Biomorphs are not going anywhere. It's not my responsibility that my opponent doesn't know the rules to my dex...just as it's not my opponents fault if I don't know what a unit does in his army.

Face it, biomorphs are cool!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm more worried about GW making the devourers useless and replacing them wih deathspitters as the weapons of choice on MC's. So much re-modelling it isn't even funny (I don't magnetize).

That's my biggest fear too, but it's the growing pains every 5 years I guess.
As far as opponents misleading, if they are low enough to do it on purpose you can do it with any army not just tyranids. Like accidentally forget to pay to upgrade a flamer to a melta gun or something.

Venom Cannons should not be just glancing. In the current codex, it describes a man having his flesh melting from his bones. Why? He was shot with a venom cannon, meaning it is like acid. It should melt through metal with ease, not glance.

And Lictors should be allowed to take some different Bio-morphs, as long as they wouldn't disrupt the Stealth thingy.

Lukus83 wrote:If anything I think they will add more options. Same biomorphs, but give tyrants access to +1 T and stuff like that.

Um, have you seen any of the Codices which came out in the past year or so?
- Special Characters
- No biomorphs
- fixed unit types
- carefully-selected options

I've always made a point to explain what each of my monster's upgrades mean and show people my list before I play, with my codex handy, if it's their first time against my army. I usually also explain what each of my models are capable of, since I already know what each of his models can do at a glance and he may not if he/she isn't experienced fighting Nids.

I believe the current biomorph system is rooted in the Andy Chambers 3rd edition dex, which also had rules to create your own hive fleet with it's own signature mutations. I really want one of those. It may go back further than that but I'm not sure. As far as the question of it being "their thing" is a function of age, I think it doesn't matter. If it works and characterizes the army more fully, keep it.

I think I'll just wait this out and see what happens once more rumours come out.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Um, have you seen any of the Codices which came out in the past year or so?

But John... I thought the new Chaos Codex gave you more options, not less? I mean, that's what you've been telling us. You aren't contradicting yourself again are you? That would be so sad.

yay tyranids in january, dark eldar in february and necrons in march!and then a DECENT csm codex in april...WHAT A YEAR!

Tim the Biovore wrote:In the current codex, it describes a man having his flesh melting from his bones. Why? He was shot with a venom cannon, meaning it is like acid. It should melt through metal with ease, not glance.

You think that's bad?

The 3rd Ed Tyranid Codex - where this whole 'Glancing Only' bull-gak game from - describes the Venom Cannon as a great weapon for 'penetrating' tanks in one paragraph (fluff), and then in the very next paragraph says that it glances only (rules). Amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_emperors_renegade wrote:yay tyranids in january, dark eldar in february and necrons in march!and then a DECENT csm codex in april...WHAT A YEAR!

Don't be crazy. There's no Dark Eldar Codex.

Rest of that is spot on though.

Railguns wrote:Honestly, it always ends up being the same configuration anyway, once people figure out what the optimal configuration is. Dakkafex devourers are always S6, flyrant devourers are always S6, Warrior deathspitters are always S6, Warrior devourers are always S4, Carnifex Barbed Stranglers are always S8... you end up with standard weapon lines anyway. But the options inherent in the system are what makes it fun.

I believe flyrant devourers can only be S5. Hive Tyrant is S5 and can be upgraded to S6, and Devourer is S-1 so 5. While Carnifex would be S9 -1 =8 but capped at 6 for the weapon.

Please tell me again that its so easy to remember that it doesnt have to be changed. I play tyranids myself, and I know that I got confused between the tyrant devourer and the fex devourer a couple times.

Also as I wrote in the post above, the devourer will go from being arguably our best gun to our worst gun with this change. So I am not advocating it for power, but for simplicity. I think the idea of having "Big Devourer" and "Small Devourer" has a lot of merit though. That would mean fixed stats on weapons but address the diversity issue.

Now it's time to change from pessimist to optimist! Yeah!........Looks like everyone is gone.

As far as Biomorphs are concerned, do we really need that many options.

To many options dilutes the game and makes even veterans scratch their heads over what they are facing.

Or was I the only player who encountered the same Deamon Prince over and over with different gifts every time I faced him. "Oh, he had a Dread Axe this time, and I am learning that now that you charged my Terminators, great...". Trust me, I was there doing it too.

Look at the Gaunt entry in the current codex, how many of those options do you actually use. Yakface wrote a whole article on the current Carnifex in 4th edition, roughly half of the options weren't even usable.

So I reject the notion that we need massive amount of biovore options. Hormaguants and Guants should have very little. Carnifexes should have a respectable list, but one that makes since.

Oh and Spore Mines should go back to large blasts.

My prediction is for fewer and more focused biomorphs. In the case of the Carnifex, I still think we may see different dedicated Carnifex types. So the assault Carnifex gets access to a particular list of weapons and biomorphs, while the gun Carnifex gets access to different lists. Something like (a totally revised) Thornback would be exclusive to the assault Carnifex, etc.

The problem with the biomorphs now isn't that we have too many; it's that we have too many useless ones. A big list with only 4 usable things doesn't mean a big list is inherently bad, it just means that the people coming up with the list didn't do a good enough job of game design. The current amount would be fine if half of them weren't useless. If the statlines confuse you, just read the guy's list. If he won't give you a list, then he's being a poor sport anyway.

Edit: Sorry I was thinking of the 3rd edition Tyrant who was base strength 6 before toxin sacs and devourers. I've been pretty woozy and unable to concentrate lately. Hope it isn't flu onset.

I just don't see 20 usable options as a possibility in a game system that has a relatively simple basic mechanics.

Sure, things like "+1 STR" or "+1 BS" has it's place and can be useful, but do we really need three different tail options? I am sure that those tails will still have some purpose in the new dex, simple because they are on the sprue.

Also, I am a firm believer in the current design that puts an emphasis on making the basic model complete and useful. You shouldn't have to choose options just to get the model legal.

I forsee that the Carnifex will come with two sets of scything talons as standard and you can upgrade from there.

I am not a proponent of the design philosphy in the Dark Angels and Chaos codexes that simplified things too much. But I think the post 5th Edition Rule book codexes have been much better at keeping the balance between too many options and too few.

Perhaps I need to clarify what I meant by more biomorphs. I didn't mean new ones, I meant that nid's in general should have access to a bigger list of existing ones (currently only carnifexes can get an extra wound and an extra point of toughness). Get rid of the junk that no-one uses...either due to crappiness or just unusable now in 5th, and you have a respectable list of biomorphs.

Railguns wrote:The problem with the biomorphs now isn't that we have too many; it's that we have too many useless ones. A big list with only 4 usable things doesn't mean a big list is inherently bad, it just means that the people coming up with the list didn't do a good enough job of game design. The current amount would be fine if half of them weren't useless.

You know, I'm pretty sure I read the *exact* same quote about Doctrines. Or was it Traits? Legions? No, wait, Wargear! Nah, Daemonic Gifts!!! Oh, wait, ALL OF THE ABOVE!

It is a fact of gaming that, in any given list, 20% will be relatively optimal, and 20% will be relatively garbage. The larger the list, the wider the spread becomes. You can see this effect in any army list/Codex, along with Magic card sets, and even Chess pieces. The smaller the list, the less non-optimal stuff, and the easier it is to bring things closer together.

Now, if everybody really were casual, then a huge amount of stuff would be playable. But gamers have a tendency to focus only on the "good" stuff, so why bother making the rest rules with design & playtesting effort, when a line of Fluff is sufficient?

The other issue is that many Biomorphs are relatively "invisible" in the same way as Gifts (Toughness? Strength?).
- Weapon arms & the Fex tail, I can see, because it's big.
- Little blobs (glands?, sacs?), not so much.
- Extra Armor? Not really signficant-looking.
- Different heads? Nomoreso than a Marine in a Crusader / Beakie / Rebreather helm.

I'm pretty sure that the designers of Magic intentionally write bad cards into the sets for some particular purpose that was mentioned in one of the head designers blogs.

I agree that the base model should be usable. A carnifex base model shouldn't be some useless lump of plastic that that look ferocious and accomplishes nothing. They went a bit too far with the current fex statline by making the base creature too impotent before upgrades. As for being legal before upgrades or not, thats just because they went the route of making you pay points for the weapon you wanted instead of giving it a weapon and having you replace it for something else at a smaller points cost. I think the first approach might, might, be more appropriate for Tyranids if you want to assume that there is no such thing as a standard Carnifex because it's a mutable genus. I can go either way on that because I also like the idea of particular strains becoming so successful in the swarms that they become standard creatures like gaunt broods, Hive Tyrants, Warriors, etc. with small, secondary adaptations made through "equipment" for a particular situation.

I'll give you toxin sacs and adrenal glands. For toxin sacs, it's because the little things are fiddly, small, and usually attached to the underside of arms and the like, so are hard to spot. For adrenal glands, it's because they gave 2 different upgrades the same name and physical representation, then had arguments for years over whether you could or couldn't take both of them and what that meant for WYSIWYG.

Now I still espouse the options, though, because I appreciate the creative side of the game and if I want flying, plasma spitting bugs with extra eyes and a thorny carapace I'll want to try it anyway. There isn't anything wrong with having the option to do something if it's less than perfectly competitive. What I wish would happen is that they would rework how some of the actually useless biomorphs work. Spore carapaces are useless because they have a change to hurt the Carnifex, yet no chance at all to ever actually reach the enemy in a realistic time frame AND may actually give up extra kill points. Thornback and symbiotic rippers do exactly nothing in 5th edition.(I'd like to see thornback become the "impact hits" upgrade given the codex description). We have no reliable ranged anti-tank right now beyond using the barbed strangler on light vehicles and the venom cannon on open topped ones. Even then the only times you ever see the heavy weapons are on the MC's anyway. The Warriors can only hit S7 with a venom cannon, 4 with a Barbed Strangler, and nothing else in the list can use those two weapons.

The concept of the Carnifex isn't bad, and same with the WYSIWYG backs. But they need to be reconcepted more simply, like the "big" guns.

What's wrong with Carnifexes and Warriors both having the *same* "big" R36" S8 AP4 A2 Rending Venom Cannons? Is there a balance problem with a trio of BS3 "Heavy" Warriors all armed with S8 A2 Venom Cannons when they'll score a whopping 3 S8 hits (with a good chance to Rend against heavy armor), netting roughly comparable functionality as 4 BS4 Devastators with 48" Lascannons...

Or, oh, noes, the Carnifex and Warriors have the same "big" anti-troop gun, so the Warriors lay down 3 BS3 large plates instead of the Fex dropping a single BS2 plate.

With the same weapon effects for the same-looking guns, a couple things happen Warrior v Fex:
- Heavy Warriors become really, really good for shooting at stuff directly
- Carnifexes become well-differentiated as Uber Assault Beast Monstrous Creature

With the shooting role passed over to Warriors, it now becomes easy to give the Fex a Plasma Template attack, along with carapace Tank Shock, carapace "grenades", bonus Tail attack, etc. because it's clearly an Assault model that only carries the gun(s) for advancing fire. This means that the Fex can be semi-fixed with S10 Rending stabbers for the first 2 arms to drive the point home, akin to how a Defiler is mandated to have the Cannon and can then fiddle for a little more shooting or a couple more attacks.

Of course, this means that the Fex and/or Zo becomes (optionally, depending on the Special Creature) Elite, but that's easy enough to reshuffle.

I agree John.

Warriors should be the shooty choice, especially if they have a rumor to be heavy support options.

Would it be so bad if instead of Elite fexes, you could take units of them? Like the Thunderwolf Cav in the Space Wolves codex or Russ Squadrons, make then a 1 - 3 option. I think that is the easiest way to encourage CC fexes, make the Screamer killer the basic cheap option, and make upgrade expensive enough that fielding a unit of 3 gun fexes would be too expensive. But Carnifex squadrons would allow you to use wound allocation to your advantage to protect the more upgraded Fex.

Just a thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It is a fact of gaming that, in any given list, 20% will be relatively optimal, and 20% will be relatively garbage. The larger the list, the wider the spread becomes. You can see this effect in any army list/Codex, along with Magic card sets, and even Chess pieces. The smaller the list, the less non-optimal stuff, and the easier it is to bring things closer together.

I disagree with this. Most newer codexes have been composed of mostly useful units since the promote a wide variety of good builds.

I could see 'Fex broods being weaker ones, ala elite 'Fexes, or singular big o es.

Throwing this out there for consideration:

The new IG dex has LOADS of different ways you can build your lists, and it is not considered a poor codex right now. Granted, certain variants are more predisposed to winning in 5th (i'm referring mainly to mech vets) but you can still build effective armies such as the 50-man platoon blobs, tank-spam, etc. In the IG codex's case, adding more to it did not significantly reduce the effectiveness of the codex as a whole.

It is entirely possible that the new Tyranid dex will be constructed in a similar manner. We may even see brand-new stuff nobody has even imagined yet (they are a rapidly evolving race, after all). We may not get nerfed as bad as you suspect. With space hulk genestealers out in force, they may try to buff them to up the sale value of the SH set if they try to re-release it in the future. We have no idea what they are planning, so it is hard to say what will get buffed or nerfed.

Aduro wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I want to see Lictors become as badass as Lone Wolves (or ffs at least Sly). They don't need new models though. I love the current Lictor model, just it's rules suck. I field it though, even at 80pts because it's too damn cool looking.

Preach on brother! I field a pair of em because they're so bad ass lookng. They also a little helpful for my two you it's of outflankng genestealers.

I have the older 3rd one, and I run three, the new one looks sweet but one more wound would really be nice.



All I really want is for Genestealers to rend like they used to, thats it. I like being able to and trust in mass die rolling. S4+6+3(D3maxxed) = 13....not even a glance.....

JohnHwangDD wrote:The concept of the Carnifex isn't bad, and same with the WYSIWYG backs. But they need to be reconcepted more simply, like the "big" guns.

What's wrong with Carnifexes and Warriors both having the *same* "big" R36" S8 AP4 A2 Rending Venom Cannons? Is there a balance problem with a trio of BS3 "Heavy" Warriors all armed with S8 A2 Venom Cannons when they'll score a whopping 3 S8 hits (with a good chance to Rend against heavy armor), netting roughly comparable functionality as 4 BS4 Devastators with 48" Lascannons...

Or, oh, noes, the Carnifex and Warriors have the same "big" anti-troop gun, so the Warriors lay down 3 BS3 large plates instead of the Fex dropping a single BS2 plate.

I never said there was anything wrong with that. Actually, I did complain that for some reason the only powerful shooting choices we get always end up on the Monstrous creatures. I'd love heavy warriors to add to the weight of fire my army puts out, because currently all I have for shooting ends up being a gunfex and my hive tyrant. But I want to keep the option to have close combat Warriors and Shooty Carnifexes or hybrids, if I so want. This is Tyranids; supposedly the most diverse and biologically flexible army in the game. To take away options that diversify what models can do in any other army is an unwanted annoyance. For Tyranids, it's practically a mortal sin.

Mahu wrote:Would it be so bad if instead of Elite fexes, you could take units of them?

I think that is the easiest way to encourage CC fexes, make the Screamer killer the basic cheap option, and make upgrade expensive enough that fielding a unit of 3 gun fexes would be too expensive.

If the Fex moves to Elite and becomes a 1-3 unit, I think that'd be just fine. The guns would sort themselves out, even on a unit of 3 because they'd be paying BS3 prices for BS2 guns, and not gain any Strength bonuses. So they'd always be inferior to Heavy Warriors from a shooting perspective.

The only catch is that the upgrades would have to be for *ALL* Fexes in the unit. That is, you wouldn't be able to take one grenade back and another with the Tank Shock back. It may be mutable genus, but whatever mutation the Hive Mind chooses, they'd come out identical within any given unit. A separate unit of Fexes could be different, but that wouldn't be a problem. This solves the Nid Biker problem, BTW. Besides, forcing every Fex to buy the S10 Rending Claws pretty much solves the Gunfex issue, as it's not possible to take 2 different Guns on a Fex, as there is only one option slot available.
____

Railguns wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The concept of the Carnifex isn't bad, and same with the WYSIWYG backs. But they need to be reconcepted more simply, like the "big" guns.

What's wrong with Carnifexes and Warriors both having the *same* "big" R36" S8 AP4 A2 Rending Venom Cannons? Is there a balance problem with a trio of BS3 "Heavy" Warriors all armed with S8 A2 Venom Cannons when they'll score a whopping 3 S8 hits (with a good chance to Rend against heavy armor), netting roughly comparable functionality as 4 BS4 Devastators with 48" Lascannons...

Or, oh, noes, the Carnifex and Warriors have the same "big" anti-troop gun, so the Warriors lay down 3 BS3 large plates instead of the Fex dropping a single BS2 plate.

I never said there was anything wrong with that. Actually, I did complain that for some reason the only powerful shooting choices we get always end up on the Monstrous creatures.

I'd love heavy warriors to add to the weight of fire my army puts out, because currently all I have for shooting ends up being a gunfex and my hive tyrant.

But I want to keep the option to have close combat Warriors and Shooty Carnifexes or hybrids, if I so want. This is Tyranids; supposedly the most diverse and biologically flexible army in the game. To take away options that diversify what models can do in any other army is an unwanted annoyance. For Tyranids, it's practically a mortal sin.

By having Gun Str vary by Model Str, you force the guns to only be taken by the highest S models - Carnifex & HT. Terrible, terrible design decision. By fixing the Gun Str by the Gun itself, you free up more models to be effective shooters, like Warriors and Heavy Warriors.

As above, if you want Heavy Warriors to be effective, you cannot have Gun Str vary according to the Model that carries it.

You can always have the option, but you wouldn't cross the model completely against type - Warriors could have the big stabby claws and cheap guns, or the Carnifex could carry a "good" gun, but going against type means that you're not leveraging the platforms to their greatest extent. It's a more flexible / tactical approach, rather than a specialist approach. And really, what this does is the same as how most other models are more constrained in how they're configured.

Or just make heavy warriors S6 or something, so that the +2 strength makes it into a lascannon equivalent. Lictors already are S6, so beefy Warrior variants could easily hit that. Most of the problems Tyranids face now could be solved with a little non-linear thinking. I know that there is always the "specialist vs generalist" balance that every army seems to deal with at one point or another, but I like the fact that I'm at least presented with the dilemma rather than have the choice made for me.

By having Gun Str vary by Model Str, you force the guns to only be taken by the highest S models - Carnifex & HT.

What? How is that true at all? That problem is taken care of with the weapons costing different amounts depending on what takes them. Sure, the weapons may take on different roles based on the strength (e.g., barbed stranglers on Warriors vs. Carnifexes), but that doesn't mean that they're only good on the biggest things that can take them.

As above, if you want Heavy Warriors to be effective, you cannot have Gun Str vary according to the Model that carries it.

I dunno, I'd be okay with a unit of 40-ish point Warriors all toting S7 venom cannons. It wouldn't be crap-your-pants amazing, but it'd still throw out some good firepower. Ditto that for barbed strangler units. Making heavy Warriors S6 (or the option to be) would be pretty incredible and may be warranted. I'm somewhat disappointed by the mild allusion that regular Warriors are still going to be T4, though. I really think they need T5 and a standard 4+ save to be any good, but meh. I'll take what I can get, I suppose.

Currently they are just big bolter magnets that cost as much as Terminators. I'd say they need something to keep standing under the flurry super blasty deffcannons and suchwot that the other armies are flinging around like candy these days.

Railguns wrote:Most of the problems Tyranids face now could be solved with a little non-linear thinking. I know that there is always the "specialist vs generalist" balance that every army seems to deal with at one point or another, but I like the fact that I'm at least presented with the dilemma rather than have the choice made for me.

Given that Nids pretend to follow an evolutionary backstory, they should niche and specialize over time, so each Codex should have more sub-species to exploit narrower evolutionary roles.

Something like the current Carnifex is akin to a dog, bred from the Screamer-Killer wolf. Having several mixable breed equivalents for specific purposes shouldn't be a problem in the Nid list.