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Thats the idea that the 3rd edition dex worked at by introducing some creatures as a "genofixed species". They were highly specialized creatures made for a specific goal that did not allow for further tampering. Lictors, Zoanthropes, Biovores, and I believe Raveners were all genofixed species, while the bulk of the swarm was kept flexible. I'm okay with that approach.

Right, and at what point is a Carnifex no longer a Carnifex?

When it starts saying 'Unyuu'?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Right, and at what point is a Carnifex no longer a Carnifex?

Once Robin gets done with it...

What I would want to see for warriors is WS4 BS2 S5 T5 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv4+ base. Would probably cost as much as they do now.

The Elite/HQ and fast varients would have the same list of options as they do now, but may not takle venom cannons/barbed stranglers. However, warriors may take Bonded Exo-Skeleton (+1T), Reinforced Chitin (+1W), venom cannons, and/or Barbed Stranglers, in which case they become heavy, and may not take leaping/wings. Also, add in a biomorph that provides fleet, but is not availiable to heavies.

I really would like the variable S of weapons to stay. It just gives the whole shooting thing a more "Organic" feeling.

Variable S weapons are a neat fluff point, but problematic for some of the reasons others have said. It's limiting to make a weapon so much better in the hands (claws?) of one unit than another. If on the other hand high S VCs are available to HS Warrior squads, suddenly that Carnifex doesn't *have* to have a VC. Standardizing weapons profiles would eliminate some options but create new ones.

Having said that, I don't think it's going to happen as long as (for instance) devourers come on both Gaunt sprues and Carnifex sprues. Unless they rename the Carnifex devourer to make a distinction. And I think that starts getting confusing and not very WYSIWYG. I suppose they could make some weapons variable and others fixed. But I tend to think the variable mechanic will stick around across the board.

Some things ARE variable and some are fixed. The number of shots on some weapons is restricted to just one, and the ap is fixed, as well as the range. It's usually just a strength modifier and maybe a shot multiplier.

Other armies weapons are better in the hands of one character of another already. A missile launcher is more likely to hit when fired by a marine rather than a scout. Tyranids just add another wrinkle to that, because the ranged weaponry isn't some independant machine that functions the same way regardless of who fired it. They are symbiotic organisms that rely on the host creatures metabolism to determine what they can do.

It's limiting to make a weapon so much better in the hands (claws?) of one unit than another.

I don't view it as any different than having specific weapons that are vehicle-only like demolisher cannons or Hydra autocannons or something. You're not going to see a guardsman lugging around an earthshaker cannon any time soon, so it doesn't seem terribly outlandish that Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants (the Tyranid "vehicles") would have big, fat guns that nothing else could use. I guess the "confusing" part is that the weapons bear the same name despite having very different roles, but again, I don't see how remembering one strength formula is any more complicated than remembering the stats for a bunch of different weapons.

It isn't like they can't just make warriors have a higher base strength so that they could take toxin sacs and a venom cannon to get 2 shots at S8, or make heavy warriors S6 so they get off 2 S9 shots a turn. Or make Warp Blast longer ranged and more reliable so people have a reason to use Zoanthropes. That probably won't happen though, because they want to sell whatever the new psychic thing is and not Zoanthropes. Zoeys may actually get worse.

It'd be reasonable if they allowed heavy Warriors to crank up to S6, but I'd be really surprised if they could get S7. That seems like it'd open up CC walker-busting and MC-stomping possibilities, and I doubt GW would want that without a big points premium. I want my Warriors to be reasonably costed, so even though taking on Dreads with warriors would be effing sweet, I hope they don't do that. I'd rather have a unit of Warriors dishing out S8 ranged pain for, say, 45 points a model than S9 shots for 60 points. Of course, that's assuming they're close to as fragile as they are now. I can't see warriors getting more than T5 and a 3+ at the absolute most, so I think that's a safe assumption

Railguns wrote:It isn't like they can't just make warriors have a higher base strength so that they could take toxin sacs and a venom cannon to get 2 shots at S8, or make heavy warriors S6 so they get off 2 S9 shots a turn. Or make Warp Blast longer ranged and more reliable so people have a reason to use Zoanthropes. That probably won't happen though, because they want to sell whatever the new psychic thing is and not Zoanthropes. Zoeys may actually get worse.

Zoes were bad in 3rd and were marginally better in 4rth due to Psychic chior (Warp Blast still sucked though). Like you, I don't have any faith in GW getting Zoes right.

Personally, I would like them changed to 48" range, BS 4, and operate in units of 1-3 Zoes (drop the independent gak).

Zoanthropes were pretty badass when the rule book was the codex, though. S6 AP2 blast ate Terminators for breakfast. After that, agree. They haven't been the same since. If they put in the changes you suggest, life will be good.

Unfortunately all these good ideas don't really matter as it's already finished, which I am excited about... Hopefully what you guys have said actually comes to pass and we get some costs that are in line with abilities and will have some of the brokenness fixed... Or at least something to compensate for it.

wyomingfox wrote:Zoes were bad in 3rd and were marginally better in 4rth due to Psychic chior (Warp Blast still sucked though). Like you, I don't have any faith in GW getting Zoes right.

Well they ain't getting a new model, so don't expect miracles.

They may arbitrarily get better rules for no reason(to the writers) though. Arby does manage to change things all over the place, and Zoeys can't get much worse than actively hurting your own army.(cue Zoanthropes becoming subject to Perils of the Warp twice as much as other psykers and explode into multiple scattering warp blast templates around it when they are killed.)

Maybe they'll be the unit to get the random table!!!

Hyper-Evolution - Right before the end of your opponent's third shooting phase, roll 1D6 for every second Zoanthrope in your army:

1. THEY DIE! ARBY STRIKES AGAIN!
2. They don't die, but nothing happens.
3. PINEAPPLE!
4. Warp Scream.
5. Warp Scream that only affects Space Wolves.
6. The die next turn!!!!!!!

Railguns wrote:Other armies weapons are better in the hands of one character of another already. A missile launcher is more likely to hit when fired by a marine rather than a scout. Tyranids just add another wrinkle to that, because the ranged weaponry isn't some independant machine that functions the same way regardless of who fired it. They are symbiotic organisms that rely on the host creatures metabolism to determine what they can do.

But BS is a universal variable for ranged weaponry. Tyranids have that plus S and A. And then Tyranids have biomorphs that drive their BS or S up and down. And then throw in variable points costs for guns depending on the variable S.

So when someone says "y'know, that's a lot of complexity that's bound to lead to imbalances...why not structure it more like every other army?", I kinda see their point. Not a big deal to me either way, but I think the point is valid.

I think the rumored "psychic Lictor" -- whether that's really the Malanthrope or not -- has a chance to be interesting. If it's something you can infiltrate/DS/whatever into a good shooting location, then pop out and start tossing warp blasts around while benefitting from a hefty cover save...that's something I might get some use out of.

Did anyone else see this potential blockbuster at BoLS?

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=2215&highlight=tyranid&page=7

That's a heapin' helpin' of Tyranid love if those stats pan out. Maybe HBMC was onto something with the arbitrary thing. WS 9 Lictors? Lots of stuff with T8? 7 attack Carnifexes? Hmmm...Xas seems like a decently reputable source (from what very little I know about BoLS users), but I find it really hard to believe that they're going to produce a unit that has T8, 8 wounds, 7 attacks, and a 2+ save. I'm definitely not counting on any of this being accurate, but it's still interesting.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Maybe they'll be the unit to get the random table!!!

Hyper-Evolution - Right before the end of your opponent's third shooting phase, roll 1D6 for every second Zoanthrope in your army:

1. THEY DIE! ARBY STRIKES AGAIN!
2. They don't die, but nothing happens.
3. PINEAPPLE!
4. Warp Scream.
5. Warp Scream that only affects Space Wolves.
6. The die next turn!!!!!!!

Let me be the first to say, "Nerf pineapple"

Carnifexes are so fraggin big that they would end up smashing things with their size whether they swung at them consciously or not. 7 attacks isn't too far out there.

Yeah, that doesn't seem THAT unreasonable, but the Hierodule makes me wonder.

Thats why I've always wanted them to have impact hits like the Stegadon in WHFB.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Maybe they'll be the unit to get the random table!!!

Hyper-Evolution - Right before the end of your opponent's third shooting phase, roll 1D6 for every second Zoanthrope in your army:

1. THEY DIE! ARBY STRIKES AGAIN!
2. They don't die, but nothing happens.
3. PINEAPPLE!
4. Warp Scream.
5. Warp Scream that only affects Space Wolves.
6. The die next turn!!!!!!!

Yeah, we get it. You don't like Warhammer.

When did you stop posting on topic? Like, years ago?

Back when I played Tyranids (3rd edition), I always liked the idea of Warriors much better than the reality.

The models are big and kinda-sorta cool, in a gangly mess of parts way. That's true for many Tyranids, though.

The rules have always seemed poor for them. They seem like they should be roughly equivalent to Space Marines in 'level of threat' (I.E. capable of fulfilling many roles, good at both shooting and melee, able to act as lone hunters, leaders, or other roles as required) but the rules made them point-sinks.

I'd love to see them as a flexible body of the army. Maybe some options to tweak different broods for different missions... Maybe a 'recon brood' with sneaky abilities, a 'command brood' that focuses on synapse, and a 'heavy brood' that focuses on shooting?

Railguns wrote:The only model we have capable of causing a penetrating hit at all against a Necron monolith is a Carnifex, and only then on a 5+ if you pay points for an upgrade, if you even manage to catch it in hth at all.

why the heck even bother with a monolith? nids can drop so many strength 8 templates (thus denying WBB unless there's an orb near by) that phase out is much more viable than something that is only AP3

sucks that the new codex was announced recently, as basically the couple days before I went out and bought my current nid army. grumble indeed!

Defiler wrote:You don't like Warhammer.

Such a preposterous thing to say.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Defiler wrote:You don't like Warhammer.

Such a preposterous thing to say.

Nevertheless, you haven't been adding much to the discussion.

MilkmanAl wrote:Did anyone else see this potential blockbuster at BoLS?

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=2215&highlight=tyranid&page=7

That's a heapin' helpin' of Tyranid love if those stats pan out. Maybe HBMC was onto something with the arbitrary thing. WS 9 Lictors? Lots of stuff with T8? 7 attack Carnifexes? Hmmm...Xas seems like a decently reputable source (from what very little I know about BoLS users), but I find it really hard to believe that they're going to produce a unit that has T8, 8 wounds, 7 attacks, and a 2+ save. I'm definitely not counting on any of this being accurate, but it's still interesting.

Like I said on Warpshadow, I think this may be from a legit playtest codex, but not the final version. There's some interesting stuff in there that doesn't look like your typical fan wishlist codex, and that makes me think there's some truth to it. Some standouts for me are the +2 attacks for scything talons, melta deathspitters and BS4 Zoanthropes. There's a cover save denial mine, and with lance and 2d6 armor penetration, bioacid can actually mess up vehicles. Warp field looks like a 2+/3+...nice.

And the Brood Magus... I'm sure that won't make the final cut even if this is authentic, but I can dream.

Here's some food for thought. If the were going to make the Hierodule and/or Exocrine available for Apoc games, they might want to playtest it alongside the new codex. Especially if we get the Hierodule datasheet at the same time the codex is released.

H.B.M.C. is like a Sith. Hate makes him strong, and leads to some interesting spectacles. I tend to treat him as a form of entertainment.
(also, his name is prone to mispelling, like poor old Dark Vader)

Or maybe not. I'm really tired.

I like the idea of 7 attack carnies though- bloodthirster beware!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Maybe they'll be the unit to get the random table!!!

Your table is too random. GW does a much better job of 'balancing' tables by having an equal number of good and bad chances. Because, that's balanced, right?

1 - You lose.
2 to 5 - Game continues as normal.
6 - You win.

See, by having equal odds to win and lose, that's balanced! Because, you know, that makes for good game design - random chance of something ridiculous happening!

Oh, wait, I see what you did here. You sucked me with your hate. I have to fight the Dark Side!