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I've had a few friends quit reading the books after Ned dies. They don't understand how people can possibly enjoy a story where "all the good guys die" and the world is such a negative place. All talk of intrigue and multidimensional, interesting moral complexity falls on deaf ears.
Zefig wrote:I've had a few friends quit reading the books after Ned dies. They don't understand how people can possibly enjoy a story where "all the good guys die" and the world is such a negative place. All talk of intrigue and multidimensional, interesting moral complexity falls on deaf ears.
And that is why I dislike people (in general).
Grow up and stop clinging to your black and white morality.
Zefig wrote:I've had a few friends quit reading the books after Ned dies. They don't understand how people can possibly enjoy a story where "all the good guys die" and the world is such a negative place. All talk of intrigue and multidimensional, interesting moral complexity falls on deaf ears.
Well, not all of them die, and most of them are only sort of good to begin with. Even Ned, at the very least...
Spoiler:
...emotionally torments his wife by lying about Jon being his son.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Yeah, the Starks start out as the closest to "good guys" I think, but they all do some pretty selfish things throughout the series. And that's what keeps them grounded, compelling, and interesting really.
I don't really have a problem with the common black and white morality of most fantasy tales, but the Song of Ice and Fire take is certainly a lot more believable.
Zefig wrote:I've had a few friends quit reading the books after Ned dies. They don't understand how people can possibly enjoy a story where "all the good guys die" and the world is such a negative place. All talk of intrigue and multidimensional, interesting moral complexity falls on deaf ears.
Well, not all of them die, and most of them are only sort of good to begin with. Even Ned, at the very least...
Spoiler:
...emotionally torments his wife by lying about Jon being his son.
Spoiler:
was it a lie? if its not his kid who's was it?
but that's the world for you, almost nothing is black & white, just shades of grey
but that's the world for you, almost nothing is black & white, just shades of grey
Well, one theory...
Spoiler:
...is that he was Rhaegar's son, and that Ned lied to keep Robert from killing him. Its based on Ned's reluctance to tell Jon, or anyone else, about the circumstances surrounding his conception.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/02 03:47:17
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
but that's the world for you, almost nothing is black & white, just shades of grey
Well, one theory...
Spoiler:
...is that he was Rhaegar's son, and that Ned lied to keep Robert from killing him. Its based on Ned's reluctance to tell Jon, or anyone else, about the circumstances surrounding his conception.
DONT OPEN IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS!
Spoiler:
Rhaegars and Lyannas (Neds sister) son, that is. (most likely)
How am I supposed to see season two here in germany?? I have to see it! But how?
Zefig wrote:Yeah, the Starks start out as the closest to "good guys" I think, but they all do some pretty selfish things throughout the series. And that's what keeps them grounded, compelling, and interesting really.
I don't really have a problem with the common black and white morality of most fantasy tales, but the Song of Ice and Fire take is certainly a lot more believable.
It really isn't, because it goes so far the other way. A society where the betrayals frequently accepted in ASOI&F would be no society at all. No-one could trust anyone to pay a fair price for their produce, or to cook them their meal.
I mean, the capture of Winterfell is a classic example. Theon captures Winterfell, but when he can't account for two of the kids he murders two random other children. This leads to a siege by Stark supporters, supported by troops from House Bolton. Then in a surprise moment the Bolton troops turn on the Stark loyalists. Theon welcomes the Boltons into the city, and they then proceed to betray Theon as well. I mean, one simple, quick sub-plot has one act of child murder and two betrayals.
I think the books are fantastic, but the characters aren't any more realistic than your average fantasy novel. It's just that instead of fun but ludicrous villains and fun but ludicrous heroes thrown in among a bunch of more or less normal humans, ASOI&F just has the fun but ludicrous villains in amongst the more or less normal humans.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
but that's the world for you, almost nothing is black & white, just shades of grey
Well, one theory...
Spoiler:
...is that he was Rhaegar's son, and that Ned lied to keep Robert from killing him. Its based on Ned's reluctance to tell Jon, or anyone else, about the circumstances surrounding his conception.
DONT OPEN IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS!
Spoiler:
Rhaegars and Lyannas (Neds sister) son, that is. (most likely)
How am I supposed to see season two here in germany?? I have to see it! But how?
I used a program called vuze, it is a divx program that lets you download divx files, you should be able to find the episodes a few hours after they air. You can check the american hbo site, or the canadian hbo site, they might let you stream it, but thats doubtful as most tv shows get blocked for other countries. I can't even stream doctor who from the BBC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So after eagerly waiting for season 2 of the game of thrones to start, all I can really say is: Meh.
I was interested in seeing Davos but they never even explained who he is, nor did he reach for his lucky bag. Lastly they needed someone hotter for Melisandre
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/02 14:14:04
They certainly covered alot in the premier, trying to get in a bit of what's happening across all the main characters, so it did come across as a wee bit rushed. But then, I see it as nessessary because they'll likely cater a bit more towards those who haven't read the books in order to keep them interested. (and hopefully encourage them to read the books as well?!)
The only things I felt a bit cheated on;
a) Melisandre came across as a bit hammy. I was hoping for a bit more of the fanatical & self agrandising attitude than what we did see. (because she is you know, a power-mad religious nutter who's also an evil witch!)
b) They killed Dany's Silver!!!
c) They didn't include Tyrion's mocking of Cersi after she dismisses the rest of the Small Council!
Zefig wrote:Yeah, the Starks start out as the closest to "good guys" I think, but they all do some pretty selfish things throughout the series. And that's what keeps them grounded, compelling, and interesting really.
I don't really have a problem with the common black and white morality of most fantasy tales, but the Song of Ice and Fire take is certainly a lot more believable.
It really isn't, because it goes so far the other way. A society where the betrayals frequently accepted in ASOI&F would be no society at all. No-one could trust anyone to pay a fair price for their produce, or to cook them their meal.
I mean, the capture of Winterfell is a classic example. Theon captures Winterfell, but when he can't account for two of the kids he murders two random other children. This leads to a siege by Stark supporters, supported by troops from House Bolton. Then in a surprise moment the Bolton troops turn on the Stark loyalists. Theon welcomes the Boltons into the city, and they then proceed to betray Theon as well. I mean, one simple, quick sub-plot has one act of child murder and two betrayals.
I think the books are fantastic, but the characters aren't any more realistic than your average fantasy novel. It's just that instead of fun but ludicrous villains and fun but ludicrous heroes thrown in among a bunch of more or less normal humans, ASOI&F just has the fun but ludicrous villains in amongst the more or less normal humans.
Have you read the books? The events during the series are by no means the norm. They've just had roughly 13 years of relative peace and before that centuries of relatively peaceful rule under the Targaryen dynasty. Westeros has gone mad and all the old grudges have erupted.
Zefig wrote:Yeah, the Starks start out as the closest to "good guys" I think, but they all do some pretty selfish things throughout the series. And that's what keeps them grounded, compelling, and interesting really.
I don't really have a problem with the common black and white morality of most fantasy tales, but the Song of Ice and Fire take is certainly a lot more believable.
It really isn't, because it goes so far the other way. A society where the betrayals frequently accepted in ASOI&F would be no society at all. No-one could trust anyone to pay a fair price for their produce, or to cook them their meal.
I mean, the capture of Winterfell is a classic example. Theon captures Winterfell, but when he can't account for two of the kids he murders two random other children. This leads to a siege by Stark supporters, supported by troops from House Bolton. Then in a surprise moment the Bolton troops turn on the Stark loyalists. Theon welcomes the Boltons into the city, and they then proceed to betray Theon as well. I mean, one simple, quick sub-plot has one act of child murder and two betrayals.
I think the books are fantastic, but the characters aren't any more realistic than your average fantasy novel. It's just that instead of fun but ludicrous villains and fun but ludicrous heroes thrown in among a bunch of more or less normal humans, ASOI&F just has the fun but ludicrous villains in amongst the more or less normal humans.
Have you read the books? The events during the series are by no means the norm. They've just had roughly 13 years of relative peace and before that centuries of relatively peaceful rule under the Targaryen dynasty. Westeros has gone mad and all the old grudges have erupted.
I agree with what Amata said, and I'd like to add that the numerous betrayals aren't "frequently accepted." The red wedding was called out a number of time as the atrocity it was and the fallout from it drives a number of the plots afterwards. Same with the sack of winterfell, but the number of people involved after that is much more limited because the Bolton's murdered most of the witnesses and most of the survivors fled away from everyone else. Once people start figuring out what really happened, things start moving again.
Amaya wrote:Have you read the books? The events during the series are by no means the norm. They've just had roughly 13 years of relative peace and before that centuries of relatively peaceful rule under the Targaryen dynasty. Westeros has gone mad and all the old grudges have erupted.
I have to agree. I also don't see the insanity that the royals getting up to being indicative of daily life for most of Westeros; it's mentioned many times that the smallfolk don't worry so much about who sits on the iron throne, but instead about good harvests and long summers. Westeros has some semblance of law and order (at least before Joffrey's coronation and the war that we're currently watching), evidenced by the fact that people continue to bring grievances to the king (or the King's Hand).
The bit about Theon and the Boltons is really just an indicator of how stupid Theon was, anyway. Having grown up in House Stark you'd think he'd know better than to trust the Boltons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/02 16:54:07
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
Amaya wrote:
Have you read the books? The events during the series are by no means the norm. They've just had roughly 13 years of relative peace and before that centuries of relatively peaceful rule under the Targaryen dynasty. Westeros has gone mad and all the old grudges have erupted.
Wasn't it 17 years of peace under Robert?!
Westeros has gone mad because of those damn Lannisters! Most of the crap going on can have it's roots layed at their feet.
Tyrion is the only Lannister I want to see who survives in the end...
You can't blame the Lannisters entirely for the current situation. They're certainly a contributing factor and possibly the most significant one, but there are too many players in the game to signal one out as the sole cause for the current turmoil.
Spoiler:
Not to mention it is being manufactured by Varys and Ilyio in order to usher in Dany as the Queen of a new Targaryen dynasty.
Experiment 626 wrote:Tyrion is the only Lannister I want to see who survives in the end...
Hmmm... not sure what to say without massive spoilers, not knowing how much you've read.
I'm about 2/3rd's of the way through book 2, but my mum has told me pretty much all the big events of books 3 & 5... Book 4 she fell asleep trying to get through it!
So yes, I know where Tyrion is at the end of Dance w/Dragons, what he's done & what's goin gon with him. I'm hoping for the best with him, because alongside Dany & Joura he's among my favourite characters!
Experiment 626 wrote:Tyrion is the only Lannister I want to see who survives in the end...
Hmmm... not sure what to say without massive spoilers, not knowing how much you've read.
Might be controversial to say it.. but here goes.
I'm not a Johnny come lately with these books, I devoured them all in 2003 after reading a short story of Martins and was pissed with the epic amount of fething around on A feast for crows, but I still went and had Dances Pre ordered on Amazon in about 2008 before George started putting the date back every six bloody months.. but seriously, I have wrapped on them now. I finished Dances and I wanted to throw it out of the fething window! John Snow as well?!
I think the fething authors just chase the money and drag the stories on for far far too long, maybe Ive got a short attention span, but after a decade I just get pissed off. I lost interest in the wheel of time after book 9, and I started getting pissed with these when I read Feast for Crows, it definitely felt average compared to the 3 previous books.
This story shoulda been wound up in 3. He started introducing too many new faces, killing too many old ones, and I dont know how much longer he is going to go with it, but ive lost interest, and after ADWD I think the fat man himself has lost the plot of his own story as well!
Regards the new series, I watched the whole first one out of curiosity and it was decent, but Im trying to keep away from the new ones lest my nerd rage be dredged up again about ADWD!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Jon Snow isn't dead. It's a ploy by Ramsay. Odds are Jon Snow can't die, at least until book 7, because he is in all likelihood Azor Ahai, the Prince Who Was Promised.
Amaya wrote:You can't blame the Lannisters entirely for the current situation. They're certainly a contributing factor and possibly the most significant one, but there are too many players in the game to signal one out as the sole cause for the current turmoil.
Spoiler:
Not to mention it is being manufactured by Varys and Ilyio in order to usher in Dany as the Queen of a new Targaryen dynasty.
Spoiler:
See, I'm personally a fan of Varys. Everything he does he does for the good of the Realm. And the Realm while not perfect, was a helluva lot better off under the Targaryen dynasty than it's doing under Lannister rule & Baratheon ineptitude.
Besides, it was Varys who tried to save Eddard's life by having him sent to The Wall to serve in the Night's Watch, whereas Cersi was ready to loop his head off and be done with it to protect the secret of Joffry Lannister's birth!
And it's Varys who's trying to smuggle as many of Robert's bastards out of King's Landing before Cersi can have them all murdered.
Ilyio I think is a true snake though. He's in it purely for personal gain.
I'm hoping to see Cersi get gang raped and then burned into the Iron Throne by Drogon. And Joffry, well, I'd get banned for saying what I really want to see happen to that little piece of fecal waste!
Jon Snow isn't dead. It's a ploy by Ramsay. Odds are Jon Snow can't die, at least until book 7, because he is in all likelihood Azor Ahai, the Prince Who Was Promised.
Interesting..
Its still going on too long though..
If Lord of the Rings went to 7 books I think id be pissed with that as well!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Can't we start a new thread for people who have already read all the books?
Spoiler:
My favourite character is (was) Jon Snow. He tries to do everything right and feels really bad when something goes wrong or he is forced to do something against his vows. He's a little like Horatio Hornblower (well, just a little....) from the Hornblower series by C.S. Forester, wich I also like a lot.
I really wonder what exactly happened to Jon in the end. Does he live?
I also really wonder when Martin will be done with the sixth book....
Experiment 626 wrote:Tyrion is the only Lannister I want to see who survives in the end...
Hmmm... not sure what to say without massive spoilers, not knowing how much you've read.
I agree, one thing that the books are good at is this: You will hate characters you love, and really understand and feel for characters that you have hated.
Spoiler:
I would not have imagined actually feeling sorry for and rooting for Jamie
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/02 18:03:07
MrMerlin wrote:Can't we start a new thread for people who have already read all the books?
Spoiler:
My favourite character is (was) Jon Snow. He tries to do everything right and feels really bad when something goes wrong or he is forced to do something against his vows. He's a little like Horatio Hornblower (well, just a little....) from the Hornblower series by C.S. Forester, wich I also like a lot.
I really wonder what exactly happened to Jon in the end. Does he live?
I also really wonder when Martin will be done with the sixth book....
With any luck the hbo series will keep him focused to finish the next book so it can make it into the series. Otherwise it could be another 10 year wait.
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