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 MandalorynOranj wrote:
That being said, I suppose this would be perfect for a group/club to go in on together, so everyone can essentially just pay for what they'll use.

Not a bad route to take.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
I don't think anyone's clamoring for this.

Wait, are you serious? Have you been in a cave for the last year or so? Every time we talk about White Dwarf or the digital releases, or whatever, people are complaining that WD/iPad are the only ways to get the rules. People have been asking for alternate methods since they started.

It's one thing to sell the rules for your stuff, but there's not a whole lot of value in a $40 book when you're only going to use one page. That being said, I suppose this would be perfect for a group/club to go in on together, so everyone can essentially just pay for what they'll use.

Oh, so if it isn't free, it isn't a valid response to a customer need? Also, the book is not just a book of the flyers that were released in WD. It also has other content. So you aren't paying $40 for one page.

If It's an actual update, with some actual changes, not just what I've done in excel + some interesting new rules and such, I'll grab it.
If not - I have the White Dwarf issue for the Ork flyer etc, and my own work for everything else I need.
But then I have 3-4 armies that will benefit from the update, and who knows, there may be more than the fairly minimal info there is already.

Or they coould have just made IA: Aeronautica completely Official in all ways.

I meant more the fact they could just reprint the rules verbatim without any attempt at a new balance and then charge money for it, rather than misplaced outrage at the fact that the flier rules are now available again (for money).

As a company I don't begrudge them their effort, but I really hope the 'updated' rules don't mean 'with new pictures'.

 pretre wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
I don't think anyone's clamoring for this.

Wait, are you serious? Have you been in a cave for the last year or so? Every time we talk about White Dwarf or the digital releases, or whatever, people are complaining that WD/iPad are the only ways to get the rules. People have been asking for alternate methods since they started.

Clamoring for a better way to get rules? Absolutely, but this isn't it.

 pretre wrote:

It's one thing to sell the rules for your stuff, but there's not a whole lot of value in a $40 book when you're only going to use one page. That being said, I suppose this would be perfect for a group/club to go in on together, so everyone can essentially just pay for what they'll use.

Oh, so if it isn't free, it isn't a valid response to a customer need? Also, the book is not just a book of the flyers that were released in WD. It also has other content. So you aren't paying $40 for one page.

I'm sorry if that's how it came off, but that isn't what I meant. I think it makes sense to charge for the rules, but not to charge for a possibly mandatory rules update when all you need is one unit. If they're going to charge, they should get their crap together and charge for it piece-by-piece online, as PDFs. GW not being able to figure this out isn't an excuse for something like this. And from reading this thread, the only other content I've seen talked about was already in Crusade of Fire. It's a very small percent of customers that would actually get $40 of use out of this book as described here, and just because it's the only solution available doesn't make it ok.

I think it's just a very thinly-veiled reprint of the rules for the existing flyers, sort of like Chapter Approved was a reprint of various rules articles, FAQ's and Codex errata that was previously found in WD. But in the case of Chapter Approved, it was a reprint of a TON of material, in two 125-ish page books (there might have been a third, but I only have two).

I think it's cool that GW is releasing rules that are nearly impossible to get through normal channels, but rather than having them as a free PDF of some old WD articles being posted on their site, they are going for a money grab. Which really isn't surprising to me at all, lately.

 Lorizael wrote:
My sources say this will be a 70 page "compendium".

It will have updated 6th edition rules for flyers:

Stormraven (now available to space marines and BT)
Storm Talon

also dog fighting rules from crusade of fire and a new flyers scenario.

Hopefully these rumours are not entirely true. The dogfighting rules in CoF, although decent, are not that well thought out (IMO).

The list of special manoeuvers is missing an army or two, IIRC, and yet also lists special moves/abilities for Space Wolf pilots even though the pups have NO flyers and - according to this rumour - still won't after the release of this supplement.



+ Edit : Fixed the quote, sorry Kroothawk...

Looking back on my copy of CoF, the rules in there feature pilot skills for all armies, except for a few that don't have any (SoB, Daemons, Nids) and :
- Chaos (guess they forgot the drake is not a FMC?)
- Dark Eldar (why the f*?)
On the other hand, Black Templars and Space Wolves do get pilot skills even though they don't have access to any flyers... Bravo!

Please quote correctly.
I never said that. Although it could be right.

So if there are rule updates in there for vendettas or something, and it is limited edition and I don't get my hands on it, I'm just boned? Ignoring the illegal methods of rule gathering that is, because that is bad...

@ motyak: I think you read the OP wrong. It's not a limited release.

I still think it's a bit silly come out with this before making at least one flier for every army (i.e. Tau).

It's sad when you have to beg GW to take your money...Here I sit with a fairly substantial amount of disposable income and they simply can't be bothered to take it from me. :-)

I hope the details of this are incorrect - otherwise this is a STUNNING failure on GW's part.

They could easily add more flyers, even just stat wise, and adjust the others that need it.

What a spectacular failure - I hope it is not the case.

Add rules for flyers for all races that need them.

I'll be getting this only if there are major changes as someone has previously mentioned. I wish vendetta/valkyrie get fixed and then SoB get access to field them (at least valkyrie). With additional shield of faith of course.

yeah,

davethepak wrote:
I hope the details of this are incorrect - otherwise this is a STUNNING failure on GW's part.
They could easily add more flyers, even just stat wise, and adjust the others that need it.
What a spectacular failure - I hope it is not the case.
Add rules for flyers for all races that need them.

What and deny themselves an easy updated book in 3 months time 'Moar Death from the Skies"

Panic...

Have to agree with pretre, people aren't ever satisfied. We don't even know what's in the book yet (or if it's even real) and people are already blasting GW because they possibly might theoretically not create this book in the way person X wants. There are a lot of legitimate complaints with GWs current business approach, but the fanbase is sounding more and more like petulant children by the year.

If this is basically a patch for 6th, because they didn't playtest 6th enough (seriously, no-one at GW spotted that Valkyries were overpowered and that codexes without anti-flyer defence were massively nerfed?), then it should be available as a free PDF as well as in paid-for printed form.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
If this is basically a patch for 6th, because they didn't playtest 6th enough (seriously, no-one at GW spotted that Valkyries were overpowered and that codexes without anti-flyer defence were massively nerfed?), then it should be available as a free PDF as well as in paid-for printed form.

1. The Guard Codex is a 5th Ed Codex, not a 6th Ed Codex.
2. The Valk wasn't a flyer when it came out. It was a Skimmer.
3. No army needed anti-flyer defence because flyers weren't in the (main) rules yet.

meh_ wrote:
I'll be getting this only if there are major changes as someone has previously mentioned. I wish vendetta/valkyrie get fixed and then SoB get access to field them (at least valkyrie). With additional shield of faith of course.

You can take them with Allies, which I've seen done often enough and is plenty fluffy.
With Shield of Faith would be ridiculous though. xD

I think this is about the WD rules more than any codex fix. Remember the WD rules were 5th Ed. They release the book, with fluffed content from crusade of fire and maybe a few new units if they have a spring release plan while removing the exclusivity of some of the imperial flyers because more accessibility means more sales.

I'm definitely interested in this book. I like the idea of having a compilation of flyer rules available, but I'll have to look at it before I can say if I'll buy it.

 Ovion wrote:

meh_ wrote:
I'll be getting this only if there are major changes as someone has previously mentioned. I wish vendetta/valkyrie get fixed and then SoB get access to field them (at least valkyrie). With additional shield of faith of course.

You can take them with Allies, which I've seen done often enough and is plenty fluffy.
With Shield of Faith would be ridiculous though. xD

Except you can't actually put any of the sisters in the transport whihc is kinda the point

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
If this is basically a patch for 6th, because they didn't playtest 6th enough (seriously, no-one at GW spotted that Valkyries were overpowered and that codexes without anti-flyer defence were massively nerfed?), then it should be available as a free PDF as well as in paid-for printed form.

1. The Guard Codex is a 5th Ed Codex, not a 6th Ed Codex.
2. The Valk wasn't a flyer when it came out. It was a Skimmer.
3. No army needed anti-flyer defence because flyers weren't in the (main) rules yet.

Yes, I know all of that (having played a lot of 5th), but it would have been trivially easy for GW to either (a) update the Valkyrie rules and/or points costs either in the main rulebook or an FAQ (note that they do include unit summaries at the end of the MRB -- just reducing its armour a bit would have made a difference) or (b) ensure that the rules were at least reasonably balanced for existing armies (flakk missiles available to anyone who as a missile launcher, at a set cost, mandated by the main rulebook; and/or lower hull points for Flyers).

It would be nice of them to include a few GW xenos flyiers as official rules even if its to bridge the gap to the next flyer wave.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Have to agree with pretre, people aren't ever satisfied. We don't even know what's in the book yet (or if it's even real) and people are already blasting GW because they possibly might theoretically not create this book in the way person X wants. There are a lot of legitimate complaints with GWs current business approach, but the fanbase is sounding more and more like petulant children by the year.

This book is one of two things:

1) Its just an optional book that is a simple collection of the fliers in the game with add on rules for fancy dog fights, fine, its like spearhead or planet strike, not my thing because the interest will die off pretty quick but power to you if you want it.

2) Its a "must buy" with updated rules to fix oversights with some filler content to try and justify a $40 price tag, despite GW having an errata resource that is free. This makes them more a kin to con-artists then a company.

Some people dont like getting con'd out of money, its like buying something that's broken and being told it is "the greatest and best in the entire world" then when you go to return it or get it fixed, they have their hand out. It doesnt take much to think critically, supporting terrible behaviour and ideas only leads to more and worse behaviour. All GW needs to do is to stop alienating and making people feel like they are getting screwed.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Have to agree with pretre, people aren't ever satisfied. We don't even know what's in the book yet (or if it's even real) and people are already blasting GW because they possibly might theoretically not create this book in the way person X wants. There are a lot of legitimate complaints with GWs current business approach, but the fanbase is sounding more and more like petulant children by the year.

This book is one of two things:

1) Its just an optional book that is a simple collection of the fliers in the game with add on rules for fancy dog fights, fine, its like spearhead or planet strike, not my thing because the interest will die off pretty quick but power to you if you want it.

2) Its a "must buy" with updated rules to fix oversights with some filler content to try and justify a $40 price tag, despite GW having an errata resource that is free. This makes them more a kin to con-artists then a company.

Some people dont like getting con'd out of money, its like buying something that's broken and being told it is "the greatest and best in the entire world" then when you go to return it or get it fixed, they have their hand out. It doesnt take much to think critically, supporting terrible behaviour and ideas only leads to more and worse behaviour. All GW needs to do is to stop alienating and making people feel like they are getting screwed.

Which is why whining before we know anything about the book in question is silly. Sure, if it turns out that GW makes it a "mandatory" update (not like people complain when they release "mandatory" WD rules) then I'd be fine with complaints because, as you noted, that's be annoying. What I absolutely can't stand is the seeming obsession people have of painting the worst scenario possible and then moaning, wailing and gnashing the teeth over a non-issue. Just look at the DA Codex release; tons of people whining about how OP all marines are, how OP it'd be because it's written by Mat Ward, how cheese it'd be because T5 Terminatorz!!!11!!

Turns out both DA and Deathwing Knights are really well-balanced and the book wasn't written by Mat Ward. What's the meme again? Haters gonna hate?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
If this is basically a patch for 6th, because they didn't playtest 6th enough (seriously, no-one at GW spotted that Valkyries were overpowered and that codexes without anti-flyer defence were massively nerfed?), then it should be available as a free PDF as well as in paid-for printed form.

1. The Guard Codex is a 5th Ed Codex, not a 6th Ed Codex.
2. The Valk wasn't a flyer when it came out. It was a Skimmer.
3. No army needed anti-flyer defence because flyers weren't in the (main) rules yet.

Terrified that he and H.B.M.C are on the same side, pretre says "Never let the facts stop you folks!"

I go back to the Redbeard quote in my sig for almost every rumors thread. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid. Can we wait until we see the book before flipping the feth out? Let's just be excited for new things. That is what rumors threads are for (in my opinion).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Have to agree with pretre, people aren't ever satisfied. We don't even know what's in the book yet (or if it's even real) and people are already blasting GW because they possibly might theoretically not create this book in the way person X wants. There are a lot of legitimate complaints with GWs current business approach, but the fanbase is sounding more and more like petulant children by the year.

This book is one of two things:

1) Its just an optional book that is a simple collection of the fliers in the game with add on rules for fancy dog fights, fine, its like spearhead or planet strike, not my thing because the interest will die off pretty quick but power to you if you want it.

2) Its a "must buy" with updated rules to fix oversights with some filler content to try and justify a $40 price tag, despite GW having an errata resource that is free. This makes them more a kin to con-artists then a company.

Some people dont like getting con'd out of money, its like buying something that's broken and being told it is "the greatest and best in the entire world" then when you go to return it or get it fixed, they have their hand out. It doesnt take much to think critically, supporting terrible behaviour and ideas only leads to more and worse behaviour. All GW needs to do is to stop alienating and making people feel like they are getting screwed.

Which is why whining before we know anything about the book in question is silly. Sure, if it turns out that GW makes it a "mandatory" update (not like people complain when they release "mandatory" WD rules) then I'd be fine with complaints because, as you noted, that's be annoying. What I absolutely can't stand is the seeming obsession people have of painting the worst scenario possible and then moaning, wailing and gnashing the teeth over a non-issue. Just look at the DA Codex release; tons of people whining about how OP all marines are, how OP it'd be because it's written by Mat Ward, how cheese it'd be because T5 Terminatorz!!!11!!

Turns out both DA and Deathwing Knights are really well-balanced and the book wasn't written by Mat Ward. What's the meme again? Haters gonna hate?

You're right. GW has a terrible rep. 90% of everything that people say about GW is flat wrong. The vast majority of things people predict about them is wrong. GW far more often than not gets rules right, has nicely edited products, makes their FAQs clearly worded, appropriately cost things, has an eye for balance, enlists background writers with an ear for the language, rules writers with a mind for mechanics, coherence, and fairness, and ad execs who know how to generate desire for product months in advance of release. They listen to their fan base, they remain consistently good, and they have never invalidated whole armies with one edition of a rules change, then left that army to languish as two or more editions pass it by. They certainly have never updated an army after a long hiatus and then immediately invalidated it with an edition change. They make cinematic and fun games and WHFB Daemons was the most well thought out, balanced, and reasonable rule book ever published for any game ever.

GW is judged unfairly. Why should anyone ever think that they may make mistakes in the future, especially ones in line with the mistakes THEY HAVE ALREADY MADE REPEATEDLY IN THE RECENT PAST?!?!?

The rules for DJ and SR could be posted on the instruction sheet included with the model and left at that. PP does that as a base line. No, models are not used in a vacuum, but the rules for them can be PURCHASED that way! The fact that the rules for a handfull of models are so sacrosanct to GW that they can't simply be errataed or PDF'd for a time until the new army book comes out is wholly ridiculous. Especially seeing as THEY'VE DONE IT BEFORE!

I think you'll find the truth is somewhere in the middle of those two extreme views. As is normal in these cases.

GW IS judged unfairly because they don't just get flak for all the mistakes they've made (which you'd have noticed I accnowledge in my previous post) but for a million silly things they DIDN'T do. It's pretty glaringly silly for the community to go from "waaah no access to flier rules anymore" (which was actually a valid complaint) to "waaah I have to pay for stuff!!!11!!". Seriously, we've asked for legally accessible flier rules for months and once we (seemingly) get them we whine because they're not free or because they're not exactly the way we want them, based off of GUESSES of how things might possibly potentially maybe might turn out. That's beyond healthy scepticism and fully in annoying whining territory, because it doesn't add anything to the topic.

A statement that one reserves judgment until the book is out but that one remains sceptical due to past experiences? Sure. All-out Internet rage (albeit pretty mild compared to the rest of the Internet) just doesn't add anything to the conversation at hand and clogs up the thread with meaningless drivel for those of us who came here to read about the rumours, not of how people hate GW for sodomizing their goat before sacrificing it to Cthulhu in a dark ritual in their basement.

/rant