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He ony gives a 4++ to guys within 3" of him, so that is a bad idea

To *units* within 3". Meaning his entire unit has a 4++.

No...no...its models within 3"

You could take good old azzie from the DA book to get that 4++ though.

Hmm youre right. I guess then putting him in a LR is really the only way to get the most out of the PFG.

In which case, can the HQ of an allied detachment start the game attached to one of your primary detachment's squad inside a dedicated transport belonging to your primary detachment?

 Sir Arun wrote:
Hmm youre right. I guess then putting him in a LR is really the only way to get the most out of the PFG.

The PFG doesn't extend out of the Land Raider.

In which case, can the HQ of an allied detachment start the game attached to one of your primary detachment's squad inside a dedicated transport belonging to your primary detachment?

Technically yes, likely not intended, please don't start a rules discussion on this here. It's safer to assume "No."


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 labmouse42 wrote:
No...no...its models within 3"

You could take good old azzie from the DA book to get that 4++ though.

Oh - sorry, I had them confused. Thanks for the correction.

For Crusaders, if I'm going drop pod I'd take a fully decked out squad.
10 Initiates, melta gun, power axe, sword brother with combi melta and single claw. Rest of initiates have BP&CCW.

This squad wants to drop in, fry a transport and then assault the stuff inside.

For rhinos, I think 10 Initiates with a single flamer is enough. Cheap and focused on killing infantry camping objectives.

My own camping squads would likely be plasma cannon and gun. I like this over las/plas because I'm not tempted to waste the squad trying to tickle a tank on the other side of the board.

 minigun762 wrote:
This squad wants to drop in, fry a transport and then assault the stuff inside.

Hmm somewhere I had read that you cant shoot at a transport, pop it and then damage its troops on the same turn by the same squad.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
This squad wants to drop in, fry a transport and then assault the stuff inside.

Hmm somewhere I had read that you cant shoot at a transport, pop it and then damage its troops on the same turn by the same squad.

Not in one turn no, but subsequent turns it would work.

So I just got an email about a digital edition Codex:SM supplement focusing on Iron Hands. This gives me hope that BT might get something, either a digital supplement or a something in WD... It's not necessarily over just yet....

How competitive is the old Crusader squad in a LRC combo?

You can get a special weapon and 2 power-weapons (or PF or LC) in them and with CCWs they'll do ok in CC. They're still plain old marines, so don't try to take down a DP with them but they'll do a bit better than their "vanilla" variant.

You get a special weapon, AND 2 power weapons AND a combi weapon AND as many neophytes as you have marines, ideally 4 +1 IC you can cram in the LRC.

Because 6th edition doesnt have 2" disembark shenanigans, you can place them nicely out front and assault out of the LRC because it is an assault vehicle. 6th edition pile in also helps get your boys to use all their attacks against the victims.

Ideally you'd want a meltagun, a powerfist you can hide in the squad, a power sword for your sword brother sarge and shotguns OR bp + ccw for the neophytes. Why am I considering shotguns? Because shotguns cause 2 S4 hits during the shooting and 2 s4 attacks during combat, while bp + cw causes 1 S4 shot during shooting and 3 during assault.

So the advantage of the shotgun is that more enemies die before your guys make it into combat, meaning if they are initiative 4 or higher, less of them will get to strike blows against your guys before your guys can strike theirs, decreasing the casualties you sustain.

On the other hand, causing more casualties during shooting means the chance to successfully assault is decreased, but given that you can deploy upto 6" away from the front ramp of your LRC, and have a further 2D6" assault move, and given your LRC already moved 6" during its movement phase, you'd have to be damned far from the target squad to *not be able to assault it due to them sustaining ONE or two more casualties than if your neos were armed with boltpistols.


6th edition also means there is an additional advantage in kitting out your guys with better shooting weapons and thus doing ever so slightly more casualties, namely less enemies can overwatch than if your neophytes were kitted out with bp + ccws.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
This squad wants to drop in, fry a transport and then assault the stuff inside.

Hmm somewhere I had read that you cant shoot at a transport, pop it and then damage its troops on the same turn by the same squad.

In fact you can pop a transport and assault what's inside in one turn. I don't have my rulebook on me atm, but I'll get you a page number tomorrow.

What I really like about the BT -- is that they can take the LRC as a dedicated transport.

This lets you keep your heavy slots available for other things, as thats the section in the codex thats usually under the most heavy of contention.

 Sir Arun wrote:
You get a special weapon, AND 2 power weapons AND a combi weapon AND as many neophytes as you have marines, ideally 4 +1 IC you can cram in the LRC.

Because 6th edition doesnt have 2" disembark shenanigans, you can place them nicely out front and assault out of the LRC because it is an assault vehicle. 6th edition pile in also helps get your boys to use all their attacks against the victims.

Ideally you'd want a meltagun, a powerfist you can hide in the squad, a power sword for your sword brother sarge and shotguns OR bp + ccw for the neophytes. Why am I considering shotguns? Because shotguns cause 2 S4 hits during the shooting and 2 s4 attacks during combat, while bp + cw causes 1 S4 shot during shooting and 3 during assault.

So the advantage of the shotgun is that more enemies die before your guys make it into combat, meaning if they are initiative 4 or higher, less of them will get to strike blows against your guys before your guys can strike theirs, decreasing the casualties you sustain.

On the other hand, causing more casualties during shooting means the chance to successfully assault is decreased, but given that you can deploy upto 6" away from the front ramp of your LRC, and have a further 2D6" assault move, and given your LRC already moved 6" during its movement phase, you'd have to be damned far from the target squad to *not be able to assault it due to them sustaining ONE or two more casualties than if your neos were armed with boltpistols.


6th edition also means there is an additional advantage in kitting out your guys with better shooting weapons and thus doing ever so slightly more casualties, namely less enemies can overwatch than if your neophytes were kitted out with bp + ccws.

I would agree that shotguns might be the best TAC option for LRC Neophytes. The Initiates will handle the bulk of the CC punch anyway.

Yep. One of the crusader blob's weaknesses is lack of ranged output, so any slightly additional bit of firepower that doesnt compromise your ability to shoot and charge really helps. I'd advise against taking a flamer though, as you'll kill enough models to prevent a successful charge.

I think the shotguns really depend on who you are shooting at. I used them for one of my first games against Tyranids and they were quite woeful. In the *very* few games I've played I've only used shotguns and boltguns though, so might have a go of bp/ccw. I'm very much a BT greenhorn you see

I haven't read this whole thing but it seems really good, especially since I'm just starting these guys

This makes me sad to be a Templar.

What have they done to our once beastly army :(

Agree. Losing our own book hurts a lot, and the templars didnt get any new units whatsoever.

But the dark angels for example got new ones (deathwing knights, their own flier and landspeeder variants, 30 pages of fluff etc.)

We got all the new toys of the vanilla sm (and our old codex was very, very, very, very, very restricted in what we could bring to the battlefield compared to - say - vanilla space marines now, if we hadnt been included in their dex), but now playing bt really feels like just playing vanilla sm with a black paintjob and a handful of special CTs.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Agree. Losing our own book hurts a lot, and the templars didnt get any new units whatsoever.

But the dark angels for example got new ones (deathwing knights, their own flier and landspeeder variants, 30 pages of fluff etc.)

We got all the new toys of the vanilla sm (and our old codex was very, very, very, very, very restricted in what we could bring to the battlefield compared to - say - vanilla space marines now, if we hadnt been included in their dex), but now playing bt really feels like just playing vanilla sm with a black paintjob and a handful of special CTs.

More or less. Even taking the Black Templars only units like the Emperor's Champion and Crusader squads don't give you much of an advantage or compensation for the lack of depth in comp. to what they used to have previously and in the case of at least the EC it handicaps you as he has been nerfed to the ground with him taking up an HQ slot AND costing more while not providing any army-wide buffs/vows or better close combat ability compared to what you can build with the relics.

I feel like GW was just too lazy to try and bother making another faction overhaul when it came to giving them their own flyers and specialists models obligatory for a new codex release. I feel like they should have at least differentiated Sword Brethren in some way (maybe replace Honour Guard in some way?) or better shown their piety/faith through Black-Templar exclusive wargear/tech.

I keep coming back to the fact that Crusader squads get dedicated land raiders. Beyond the full sized Crusader squad, I see value in MSU Crusader squads just for the LRC.

Yeah, the ability to take up to six fething Land Raiders as dedicated transports is pretty distinctive.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yeah, the ability to take up to six fething Land Raiders as dedicated transports is pretty distinctive.

Until Blood Angels took that...

Blood Angels, feh. They always make me imagine this dialogue between a Sister of Battle and a BA Marine:

BLOOD ANGEL: Hey, Sister, have you ever been mistaken for a man?
SISTER: No. Have you?

Anyway their Codex is way out of date, isn't it?


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P.S.: Gotta write me a Sororitas/Templar fanfic sometime. Could be awesome. So far I've only done Sororitas/Guard and Sororitas/Inquisition, plus one joke about Grimaldus's accent in the jokes thread.

Do you have any battle reports for your Templars? I'd love to see them in action so I can tailor my 4th Ed. army to 6th Ed. Rules.

Updated terminators entry to include Assault Termies. I'm really torn between regular termies and Hammernators. Both are useful, IMO - especially for Templars.