Forgeworld finally legal or not?

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**reds8n**

EVIL INC wrote:
re-read the thread, including your own pposts. You will see that I am spot on. .

No, I'm afraid you're not.

Be it accidentally or through deliberate obtuseness you're not really adding to the thread in any helpful manner at the moment.

It'd be best if you just dropped the subject and moved on.

**nosferatu1001**

rigeld2 wrote:
He doesn't disagree with it.
But that's not what you originally said. You've shifted the goalposts and insulted people who pointed it out. Again.
It's like a habit - you can't admit you were in the wrong.

I'm assuming another shifted goalposts response from evil...

FW is as legal as a digi dex, a supplement or a codex. Period. This shifts the viewpoint about - the default is FW Is allowed. Therefore if you have an issue with FW, you should say. Same as if you don't want to play Tau, or Eldar, or pink marines or blue orks.

**Yonan**

Now that that distraction is out of the way, I really liked Aaron Dembski-Bowdens comments on the topic from here. Summarised/paraphrased quote copied from here.

from the Comment Section of the article
aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 5:41 AM
It's been official since forever. People have always taken polite phrasing to justify their incorrect opinions on what's official. To GW, it's all official, and always has been, Like it or not, that's the literal truth. To see it being heralded now as something new to adapt to (or worse, that it's still not official) is the very definition of missing the point.

aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 5:44 AM
I just gave myself PTSD flashbacks to the time I foolishly tried to explain that simple policy to 3++. Oh, the rage. Oh, the resistance.

aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 7:04 AM
That's the thing. GW has released that statement, but the fanbase mistake it as "Forge World is a different company, so they don't count." GW have released the statement countless times. With the 40K Approved stamps. With Forge World stuff being on almost every page and in almost every army in White Dwarf for months. With every Imperial Armour book since #2 saying "Consider these official, but be nice if an opponent hasn't read the rules, so ask permission." Because of that misunderstanding becoming so entrenched, FW changed it in recent updates to "inform your opponent you're using these rules" with no "ask" at all. That's how GW chose to release the statement. It's the same as Black Library being canon. To GW, it's all the same, it's all canon, it's all official. But because people apply their misunderstandings to how the company functions, you get this meme about needing "GW" to release a statement. They did. They have. It's clear as day. People just don't realise what GW is, and take their misconceptions as truth.

In response to "please find some way to get GW to make some comment somewhere public to this effect"

aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 8:26 AM
They have, though. That's the point. The company's made it abundantly clear. "GW" has made the comment through every avenue it's chosen: it's plain across White Dwarf; it's mentioned on Forge World's Facebook page every time it's asked; it's at every single signing and seminar and open day from countless staff in every department; it's in every single Forge World rulebook... FW *are* GW. The Black Library is GW. The "separate company" thing is massively misunderstood. People set the boundary on this themselves, saying "I think the company works like X because I believe Internet Meme Y" so they start on incorrect foundations, and then move on to "The only way I'll be convinced is if GW issue a statement". GW *has*, countless times. People just choose not to believe the parts of the company that actually communicate with the public, and insist a statement must come from some mythical entity that doesn't actually exist. Clever stuff, really. To set the goal lines in a place the other side of the argument (and the truth) will never reach. It's no different from saying that you'll only believe in dinosaurs if God sits you down personally and tells you they were real. The fossils and other evidence isn't good enough, but that's all reality will provide, because that's how the Earth works.

aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 7:08 AM
I think the biggest misunderstanding is the triumvirate of "companies" that make up GW. They're just departments, in the same building. Their designers all go to the same range meetings. Their top brass all talk, all plan, all discuss stuff. There's a lot more communication than people seem to believe.

**Blacksails**

ADB is awesome. A lot of good insight from him, especially over at B&C.

**EVIL INC**

I still stand by original statement that I have maintained throughout, The carrot will get better results than the stick. If you expose them to it in a friendly positive manner where they will WANT to play you, they will likely be more apt to than by pressuring them with "its legal". this IS indeed "spot on" according to all "real life' situations I have come across so far.
The sad thing is, GW does not give it the public support that (I feel anyway) they should. This means it is an uphill battle.
Personally, I love seeing the models ad wish I d afford them. Till then, I am more than happy to check them out and see them in use when others use thiers..

**nosferatu1001**

Blacksails wrote:
ADB is awesome. A lot of good insight from him, especially over at B&C.

Indeed, ADB is in pretty much every way, awesome

**wuestenfux**

Yesterday, at GW I in Hamburg, a red shirt said that the new WD would contain rules to play super heavies in regular 40k games? Is it so?

**xruslanx**

wuestenfux wrote:
Yesterday, at GW I in Hamburg, a red shirt said that the new WD would contain rules to play super heavies in regular 40k games? Is it so?

yes, there's an expansion coming out that will let you field super heavies in normal 40k.

**Troike**

wuestenfux wrote:
Yesterday, at GW I in Hamburg, a red shirt said that the new WD would contain rules to play super heavies in regular 40k games? Is it so?

Yep. There have been rumours about it for a while now, actually.

Don't worry, they'll likely be toned down from what they are in Apoc. At least, I hope so.

**Formosa**

its not as bad as some believe, if they implement the lord of war option into 40k then it will be a super heavy up to 25% of your force, so a 500pts one at 2k, 375ish i think for 1500, all the super heavies in those price brackets are not that hard to kill or take fire from

**zedmeister**

Formosa wrote:
its not as bad as some believe, if they implement the lord of war option into 40k then it will be a super heavy up to 25% of your force, so a 500pts one at 2k, 375ish i think for 1500, all the super heavies in those price brackets are not that hard to kill or take fire from

Indeed. A lot of FW superheavies are around the 300 pts mark and it'll be good to see some more variety in games. Also, I hardly think a 300pts CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT is game breaking despite its formidable reputation.

**EVIL INC**

Might even things up with all the riptide, dreadknight, wraithknight spam we have been seeing.
Of course, that's why its called an arms race. lol
I look forward to it and it might give me a reason to finish painting my shadowsword (I have all options possible for it with magnets).
Question I have is does that mean they will start promoting FW or does it mean they are just looking to add in the plastic variants they currently have/make a few new ones?

**Formosa**

For me I will be useing the 6hp nuetron laser land raider, d3+2 hits 10ap2 and if you don't kill what you shoot it backfires, love that haha

**A GumyBear**

Ill be glad to finally be able to field that pylon that I never finished, but first I have to finish it then I can finally get around to using it to gib other super heavies then kill 2 random marinesthe rest of the game

**SisterSydney**

Formosa wrote:
its not as bad as some believe, if they implement the lord of war option into 40k then it will be a super heavy up to 25% of your force, so a 500pts one at 2k, 375ish i think for 1500, all the super heavies in those price brackets are not that hard to kill or take fire from

So you could get a Baneblade (excuse me, BEHNBLADE) or one of the many variants therefore (Stormlord, Stormblade, Bladestormlordbladestorm, etc.) at 2,000 points, at the same time you get double FOC? Interesting.....

And I guess if you spend 75% of your force on other stuff, you have adequate support for the super-heavy. I'd think a lone superheavy without infantry or lighter vehicles to cover its flanks would be surprisingly fragile.

What'd be interesting sometime would be to run a single super-heavy against an equal points value of regular troops, a 40K version of the old Steve Jackson game Ogre. (Oh, wait, it's back in print).

**Gitsmasher**

This thread is still going?

**SisterSydney**

And the petty bickering seems to have stopped, even.

**chaosvoices**

I don't know if this was said in many of the long posts, about the original topic.

Question: When will GW say that FW is legit in games of 40K? If they were serious about it, they'd put it in a book.
Answer: Escalation, the new Super-Heavy book, states that it will have stats for Forge World models right in the book. No Imperial Armour needed.

**ClockworkZion**

chaosvoices wrote:
I don't know if this was said in many of the long posts, about the original topic.

Question: When will GW say that FW is legit in games of 40K? If they were serious about it, they'd put it in a book.
Answer: Escalation, the new Super-Heavy book, states that it will have stats for Forge World models right in the book. No Imperial Armour needed.

It's not as if GW hadn't given us a rule about using FW already though (page 108), or taken things from FW and moved them to a codex (IG) or a number of other things. Sadly even when we have evidence proving that FW is meant to be in the game some people still want to argue and say it isn't.

Sadly I don't think this new book "solves" the issue with some of the more die-hard anti-FW crowd because it's an expansion book, which can be argued as not being "the core game" regardless of the implications it has anyways.

Frankly I'm tired of going in circles about how this issue. The game isn't meant to have such restrictions nor is it meant to be defined by tournament play, but unless people stop trying to shove 40k into some small, strictly defined role of what they want it to be and refuse to accept other people's ways of looking at the game we're going to keep having this issue.

**chaosvoices**

True, some may see the book as an add-on, of course. I mean, look at Death from the Skies. It's an expansion meant to make flyers better, but my gaming group has yet to adopt any of it's rules since the basic book does a fine job by itself without more complications. I think I would agree that it's a choice. Not everyone HAS a super-heavy, FW or not.

ClockworkZion has it right. Warhammer 40K is a game to be had between two players (or more), and mutually agreed upon rules is the way to go. Are windows see-thru? Are we using special rules for terrain, are we using Night fighting (many of my friends like to play without this rule)? Do we use Death from the Skies? Do we use FW? As long as the players see eye-to-eye, it doesn't matter what a TO might say his/her games are going to be. It's meant to have fun. Personally I don't own FW yet, but I'm getting a Storm Eagle for Christmas. Did I check to see if my friends were okay with me using it ahead of time, absolutely. In fact, I mean to share the model with the other chaos players so we all get to see what a more robust flyer can do in a game. We also agreed that for now, we can use counts-as for certain FW models, until they can be purchased, especially AA weapons, to deal with my new flyer.

The point, as ClockworkZion points out, is moot. All that matters is an agreement before game. Don't be afraid to tell your opponent that you are using FW, show them the rules, and carry on, replacing it if they don't want to try it. But the same can be said for all models. In a friendly game, I HAVE asked that there be no 3 Riptides, or 3 LR in a 1500 point game. Again, mutually agreed upon. As for Tournaments, you agree to play by the pre-defined rules set forth, including having painted minis or not, or other such, like having the actual FW book that your unit comes from, rather than just a pirated print-out. (Not all are pirated, just a common occurrence I believe).

Have fun everyone, that's why we invest hundreds of dollars/pounds/rubles/whathaveyou and thousands of hours of building/painting/playing into this hobby.

**ClockworkZion**

Here's Jervis talking about how they've lifted player restrictions (namely the 0-1 choice) to make the game better, and how he's not saying player restrictions are wrong but talks about removing them. This can easily be applied completely to FW. From White Dwarf, October 2012:

And from February 2013 Jervis talking about the "restrictions" to things you can collect, and about how players should be doing what they want to do with the hobby, not just what they read everyone telling them to do or what other say is okay, ect:

Like I've said, and even wrote an article about, this hobby is too damned big with too many freedoms in it to claim FW isn't, or shouldn't, be legal.

Does that mean you will have to play with it? Or that you will be "forced" to play against it? No. Not as long as you communicate what kind of games you want it'll be no different than turning down a game from Tau.

Does this mean it'll change tournaments forever? Maybe, eventually in time, but right now it doesn't look to be that serious, nor does it look like tournaments everywhere are adopting it meaning that if you don't like FW you can still play at some of these events without it being played against you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaosvoices wrote:
True, some may see the book as an add-on, of course. I mean, look at Death from the Skies. It's an expansion meant to make flyers better, but my gaming group has yet to adopt any of it's rules since the basic book does a fine job by itself without more complications. I think I would agree that it's a choice. Not everyone HAS a super-heavy, FW or not.

ClockworkZion has it right. Warhammer 40K is a game to be had between two players (or more), and mutually agreed upon rules is the way to go. Are windows see-thru? Are we using special rules for terrain, are we using Night fighting (many of my friends like to play without this rule)? Do we use Death from the Skies? Do we use FW? As long as the players see eye-to-eye, it doesn't matter what a TO might say his/her games are going to be. It's meant to have fun. Personally I don't own FW yet, but I'm getting a Storm Eagle for Christmas. Did I check to see if my friends were okay with me using it ahead of time, absolutely. In fact, I mean to share the model with the other chaos players so we all get to see what a more robust flyer can do in a game. We also agreed that for now, we can use counts-as for certain FW models, until they can be purchased, especially AA weapons, to deal with my new flyer.

The point, as ClockworkZion points out, is moot. All that matters is an agreement before game. Don't be afraid to tell your opponent that you are using FW, show them the rules, and carry on, replacing it if they don't want to try it. But the same can be said for all models. In a friendly game, I HAVE asked that there be no 3 Riptides, or 3 LR in a 1500 point game. Again, mutually agreed upon. As for Tournaments, you agree to play by the pre-defined rules set forth, including having painted minis or not, or other such, like having the actual FW book that your unit comes from, rather than just a pirated print-out. (Not all are pirated, just a common occurrence I believe).

Have fun everyone, that's why we invest hundreds of dollars/pounds/rubles/whathaveyou and thousands of hours of building/painting/playing into this hobby.

Thank you. I'm usually getting argued against in these topics so I really do appreciate your kind words. It's nice to hear I'm not just saying a bunch of stuff and no one is listening.

**EVIL INC**

Your both mirroring my own words. I should take that as a compliment. This is a GAME, the players (both of them) should be more worried about having FUN then fighting over "legalities".

**ClockworkZion**

EVIL INC wrote:
Your both mirroring my own words. I should take that as a compliment. This is a GAME, the players (both of them) should be more worried about having FUN then fighting over "legalities".

I'm sorry, are you trying to take credit for a belief I've had long before I've ever seen you post? Get over yourself, you're not responsible for every thought people have.

As for your words, I still can't understand most of your posts because of their confusing nature, attacks against strawmen that don't exist and generally dragging things off-topic so I highly doubt you've changed anyone's minds. Maybe if you make your point cleanly and without hyperbole and strawmen then maybe we'd know what your posting enough to maybe consider your points.

**EVIL INC**

I'm used to discrimination. my country has had issues with it since it's very beginning.
no, I'm not taking credit for your ways of thinking. I am only saying that we agree. The game is about having fun, the companionship of gamers being able to play a game either purely for fun or competatiely of for fun cpmpetition.
The topic is about whether FW is legal or not. this is the topic I have tried to keep us on (although I have seen a few stray from that). The point is does it matter if it is legal or not if both players want to use it? Does it matter if it is legal or not if all members in a club want to use it? I don't think so because if both players want to or a club wants to, they will regardless of it's "legality". that's why I stress forwarding the aspects of it that will make people WANT to use it first and the legalities of it second when addressing your club at home.

**Yonan**

I had a discussion about forgeworld on an Aussie forum, and many of them said that this:

Wasn't proof that it was official because it said 'Official', ie in 's. Plus "best to make sure they're happy. Is it just me or is this... really stupid? Saying something in a polite manner doesn't completely negate the direct word of "official" does it?

**TheCustomLime**

I think the reason they put it in quotation marks is because the whole "Official" thing is a community invented concept.

**Yonan**

Yeah, ' ' usually means two things in that context - emphasis and irony. Emphasis fits since that's the main thrust of the argument. Irony also fits because they thought it was obvious long ago.

**Big Blind Bill**

Ive seen this mentioned in many places now and was wondering if anyone can point me to a place that confirms that Forgeworld models are legal in regular games now or not?

To answer the original question, I know my copy of IA Aeronautica has this written on page 4:

Warhammer 40,000 unit: This unit is intended to be used in 'standard' games if warhammer 40,000, within the usual limitations of Codex selection and force organisation charts. As with all our models these should be considered 'official,' but owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

I believe this answers it, with no room for doubt. All FW models with the warhammer 40k stamp in their entry are legal for standard games.

Unit entries with the Apoc. stamp may of course, only be taken in apocalypse games.

Edit: I would take the ' ' to mean paraphrasing a large portion of the anti FW-playerbase, who need the rules to be 'official' when being used in a 'standard' game.

Your both mirroring my own words. I should take that as a compliment. This is a GAME, the players (both of them) should be more worried about having FUN then fighting over "legalities".

*Insert Trollolol-olol-ollol song here* In all seriousness EVIL INC, you've been called out in this thread. Time to move on and troll another.

**necrondog99**

I believe Jervis has it right... Actually just for fun my next 40K game I will tell my opponent that he is not bound by the FO chart, but I am...

- J

**ClockworkZion**

necrondog99 wrote:
I believe Jervis has it right... Actually just for fun my next 40K game I will tell my opponent that he is not bound by the FO chart, but I am...

- J

That's a better mentality than most have shown. Really in a game whose rulebook encourages player freedom, tells you to do more than just "follow the rules" and says homebrew is an acceptable place to get an army list, why is the argument "is FW legal?" and isn't "why are we limiting most of our games to the same things we play in tournaments all the time and not trying to move past that outside of that setting?"

Or did I miss the memo that every game has to be played by the same exact rules as whatever tournament you play at?