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So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword... -- Genesis 3:24 (King James Version)

Why I made this horrifying thing:


Principality Squad: 160 265 points
[EDITED: Folks have pointed out to me the cost per model here is scary low, so I've made a stab at recosting here.]
[UPDATED: And people still thought I was mad, mad, I tell you! So I tried rebuilding the unit completely here.]
[UPDATED: If you want to see a totally over-the-top Sororitas jump unit, try my Knight Angelus superheavy walker with wings.]

Principality: WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 I:3 W:2 A:2 Ld:8 Sv:2+
Superior: WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 I:3 W:2 A:3 Ld:9 Sv:2+

Force organization: Elite.
Unit type: Jump Infantry. Superior is Jump Infantry (character).
Unit Composition: 2 Principalities, 1 Principality Superior

Fuff:


Wargear:
Twin-linked heavy flamer
Sword of Fire: Melee S:8 AP:1 Armourbane, Shred, Two-Handed

Special Rules:
Act of Faith: Leap of Faith*
Furious Charge
Hammer of Heaven*
Shield of Faith

*Unique special rules:


Options:
May include up to three additional Principalities: 50 85 points per model

Any Principality may replace its twin-linked heavy flamer with
- a storm bolter: free
- a twin-linked meltagun: +5 points

Any Principality may take one of the following for 10 points:
- Wings of Faith: The Principality counts as having a Simulacrum Imperialis.
- Wings of Fire: The Principality counts as having assault grenades when charging.
- Wings of Glory: The Principality counts as having a Laud Hailer.
- Wings of Light: The Principality's Hammer of Wrath attacks gain the Blind special rule.

The Principality Superior may take a War Hymnal: +25 points
A model with a War Hymnal counts as having the War Hymns special rule.


Design notes

2 wound termies with more attacks, better weapons, tl heavy flamers that can charge from deepstrike 2 times in a game and don't mishap. For 50 pts.

Insanity.

 koooaei wrote:
2 wound termies with more attacks, better weapons, tl heavy flamers that can charge from deepstrike 2 times in a game and don't mishap. For 50 pts.

Who don't have combat tactics. Meaning they can be swept.

For what you want them to be - they should cost 100 ppm before upgrades.

You removed the main drawback of assault centurions (slow and purposeful, also hard to get close enough to combat) and in return only dropped toughness by 1 and made them cheaper. In removing the slow and purposeful and making them jump they should be significantly more expensive than a standard marines assault centurion even taking into account the loss of the assault launchers. In addition to this charging from deepstrike and bonus to HoW at the cost of a cover save? If they're charging there is a good chance they will be in combat next assault phase, so the loss of cover save is a non-drawback.

To summarise:
Up the price to higher than assault centurions
Remove assault from deepstrike
Add very bulky

So a wee bit undercosted, then?

Let me try two different ways to cost this better:

1) Still basing off an Assault Centurion, but more carefully accounting for the fact that AssCents are, um, terrible, raises the cost by 25 points to 75 points per model.


2) Basing it off a Terminator is trickier.... and I've got to take my kid somewhere so I'll have to write that up later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2 cont.: Ok, here's that promised costing based on an Assault Terminator -- which surprised me: It only adds a net +20 points to the cost of the Assault Terminator, which would mean the Principality weighs in at only 60 points! Whoops, I left out something, so it adds +30 points for a still-relatively-modest total of 70.



I think the 75-point cost from Method 1 is probably better.

Then of course there's the question of whether "Hammer of Heaven" -- the ability to charge from deep strike, get +1 Strength to Hammer of Wrath during that charge, and ignore one kind of mishap (landing on enemies) -- is undercosting at 20 points. I could see valuing each of those three things at 10 points, but that's still only 30 points, a 10 point increase.

Which would bring the points per model to 85 points. And replace the AOF with something that doesn't let it Deep Strike twice. Sound saner?

PS: And yes, I really like "Hammer from Heaven" -- for me, the ability to go straight from Deep Strike to a charge is central to the coolness of the concept -- so I'd rather up cost to reflect its true power than get rid of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to round up from 85 points to an even 90, we could give it Fear, because this thing is scary just as a concept, let alone as a huge metal thing coming at your face.

I can't think of anything to say. 85 points a model for something that'll get killed the instant someone points a meltagun squad at it is insane. On the other hand, it hits like a freight train and in melee, it's more than a match for anything else in the game except the Avatar (and only then if you make a special note, because while it's logical, it's not RAW).

That said, when you said 'giant flaming seraphim' I had horrid visions of a monstrous creature saint. >> So I'm really glad that's not what it is.

Yes, this is gleefully over the top and maybe I should tone it down to some sort of souped-up Seraphim melee specialist (kind of the way Vanguard Marines relate to regular Assault Marines, maybe).

That said, three specific responses:

1. Vulnerability
You gotta remember that meltagun spam is a Sororitas specialty. Very few other armies can put out two S:8 AP:1 shots from their baseline Troop squads, let alone the four meltas per five models you get with Dominions.
That said, Tau Crisis Suits and snipers get fusion blasters, Eldar vehicles get Bright Lances, and both Marines and Guard can field lots and lots of lascannons, so yeah, Principalities are going to die pretty fast if they don't Deep Strike straight into close combat and get under cover as soon as they firesword the other side to medium-well-done.

2. Die, Avatar, Die!
Actually this could hurt the Avatar of Khaine, even as written: the Avatar's "molten body" special rule only protects it from pyromancy, flamers, and weapons with Soul Blaze or Melta. While the Sword of Fire is fluffed as, well, a sword of fire, it doesn't actually have any of these rules: It "only" has Armourbane and Shred. So gamewise the Avatar doesn't have immunity, which you could fluff as

3 Monstrous Creature is Monstrous
I toyed with Monstrous Creature concepts, but no, they seemed too over the top even for me.

One more thing i'd like to add.

A stormbolter is much cheaper than a twin-linked heavy flamer - like 16 pts cheaper actually if you look at ig, and' it's not twin-linked. Besides, a sword is 2-handed so that you can't get both a flamer and a sword.
What you might do:
-Make a sword a specialist's weapon and give them stormbolters by default with an option to upgrade it to a flamer for +3 pts or exchange a stormbolter and a sword for a heavy flamer. In this case they still must be 80+ pts with stormbolters
-Make a flamer or heavy flamer somewhat like termie's cyclone missile launcher. That'd make a model look cool and don't loose anything if it gets this extra weapon. But it must cost accordingly. +5 pts for a flamer and +20 for a heavy flamer.
-Leave a sword 2-handed and allow it to be replaced with a heavy flamer or multimelta.

I believe the flamers are intended to be arm-mounted, like the DeviCenti's bolters.

The Avatar should absolutely be immune to the sword of fire. I know, this means that the avatar will remain a hard counter to our entire codex, but... Well. Its a flaming sword. Flaming is flaming.

That said, I'll put together a counter proposal when I get on my PC, because feth that schist on a phone keypad.

People sigh at my idea of SoB termies, but this is okay? :( I thought a squad of T3 2+ save models would make for a nice mechanic.

And no assaulting from deepstrike. GW is completely phasing it out in this edition, and once the Ork & BA codices drop, there will likely be nothing of it left.

SoB should not have the only assault from deepstrike units in the game, it is not fluffy in the slightest especially when others are much more specialised at deepstriking. Raven Guard leaps to mind.

Give them something else.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I believe the flamers are intended to be arm-mounted, like the DeviCenti's bolters.

The Avatar should absolutely be immune to the sword of fire. I know, this means that the avatar will remain a hard counter to our entire codex, but... Well. Its a flaming sword. Flaming is flaming.

That said, I'll put together a counter proposal when I get on my PC, because feth that schist on a phone keypad.

It's pretty hard to shoot an arm-mounted weapon if u're allready carying a 2-handed sword

 koooaei wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I believe the flamers are intended to be arm-mounted, like the DeviCenti's bolters.

The Avatar should absolutely be immune to the sword of fire. I know, this means that the avatar will remain a hard counter to our entire codex, but... Well. Its a flaming sword. Flaming is flaming.

That said, I'll put together a counter proposal when I get on my PC, because feth that schist on a phone keypad.

It's pretty hard to shoot an arm-mounted weapon if u're allready carying a 2-handed sword

Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, why are their swords superior to the Wailing Doom now again?

I thought grey knights have 1-handed weapons, nope?

No, GK have two-handed halberds. That's why they have wrist-mounted guns in the first place.

Actual models would make this thread epic.

Tamwulf wrote:Actual models would make this thread epic.

This! You could either
- buy a Centurion, swap in Sororitas helmet, and make a Big Sword & Bigger Wings
- buy an "armored female angel" model from someone who's not GW and make sure it's larger than 28 mm scale.

koooaei wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I believe the flamers are intended to be arm-mounted, like the DeviCenti's bolters.

It's pretty hard to shoot an arm-mounted weapon if u're allready carying a 2-handed sword

The AssCents manage to fire a flamer whenthey have swords for hands.... but it might make more sense to fluff it as the Sword shoots fire, like Celestine's.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:People sigh at my idea of SoB termies, but this is okay? :( I thought a squad of T3 2+ save models would make for a nice mechanic.

And no assaulting from deepstrike. GW is completely phasing it out in this edition, and once the Ork & BA codices drop, there will likely be nothing of it left.

SoB should not have the only assault from deepstrike units in the game, it is not fluffy in the slightest especially when others are much more specialised at deepstriking. Raven Guard leaps to mind.

Give them something else.

Sigh. I love the idea, but I see your point.

I've pondered scaling this down to elite Seraphim who stay at S3 T3 but gain Eviscerators and Furious Charge, but once you put a 30-point weapon on a 15-point model, you get a T3 W1 Sv3+ eggshell armed with a hammer.... I suppose I could make them so elite that they all have two Wounds like characters. And I do think the Sororitas should have access to 2+ armour.

Huh. Apparently, the aether ate the post I made from my phone this morning.

How's this for a counter-proposal?

Principality Squad {Elite}.................... 180 points

Principality: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I3 A2 Ld9 Sv2+/6++
Superior: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I3 A2 Ld9 Sv2+/6++

Unit Size: 1 Principality Superior, 2 Principalities

Wargear: Principle Exo-armour, Power Armour, Grav Glider, Firestorm Blades

Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith, Hammer of Heaven, Divine Wrath.

Options: May take three additional Principalities: +60 points/model
One model may take one of the following;
- Simulacrum Imperialis: +10 points
- Exorcism Rack: +25 points
- Frag Assault Launcher: +10 points
- Blind Assault Launcher: +10 points
One other model may take one of the following;
- Exorcism Rack: +25 points
- Frag Assault Launcher: +10 points
- Blind Assault Launcher: +10 points

Hammer of Heaven: When deploying via Deep Strike, enemy models to not cause the Principalities to Mishap. Instead, move the Principality squad the minimum required distance to avoid a Mishap. Note that friendly models and terrain will still force a Mishap test.

Wings of Deliverance: One use only. This Act of Faith is used in the enemy Assault Phase when an assault is declared. The Principality squad immediately Deep Strikes from Reserve. The Principalities may use this ability when they are not on the table, and even on the first turn, although deploying in the enemy turn does not allow them to act in it!


Principle Exo-Armour: Similar to the suits used by Astartes Centurions, this Sororitas variant mainly differs in its control surfaces. The largest difference is that the chest-mounted weaponry has been sacrificed for support systems and hardpoint wargear attachments. A model wearing Principle Exo-Armour has +1 Strength, Toughness and Wounds, and increases its Armour Save by 1. However, it also has the Slow and Purposeful special rule.

Grav Glider: A heavier-duty version of the gliders used by Heavy Drop Troop regiments such as the Harakoni Warhawks, the Grav Gliders used by the Principalities consist of a pair of foldable 'wings' that act as the emitters for a powerful anti-grav field. A model equipped with a Grav Glider gains the Deep Strike and Fleet* special rules, and may reroll Dangerous Terrain tests.

*Design note: Due to also having Slow and Purposeful, this only affects the Principalities' assault range rolls.

Firestorm Blades: Due to the immense power requirements, Firestorm Blades can only be fielded on vehicles and mounted on suits of heavy exo-armour. Taking the form of bulky gauntlets, a pair of Firestorm Blades count as a single, flame-based weapon. The wielder has the Smash and Armourbane special rules, and may use the Firestorm Blades in the shooting phase with the following profiles:
Rng S AP Special
Focussed: 12" 8 1 Assault 1, Melta, Twin-linked
Intense: Template 5 4 Assault 1, Twin-linked
Spread: Template 4 5 Assault 2

Frag Assault Launcher: An automatic grenade launcher fitted to a Principality's carapace, a unit including a Frag Assault Launcher-equipped model counts as being armed with Assault Grenades.

Blind Assault Launcher: An automatic grenade launcher fitted to a Principality's carapace, a unit including a model equipped with a Blind Assault Launcher may force the target to make a Blind test before firing overwatch at the unit.

Exorcism Rack: A rack of four missiles mounted on the Principality's carapace, an Exorcism Rack may be fired in addition to the bearer's Firestorm Blades. Each missile has the following profile;
Rng S AP Special
Exorcism Missile: 36" 8 2 Heavy 1, Interceptor, Skyfire, One Use Only

I must repeat my comparison to the Wailing Doom, Sydney. It really should be better than these weapons.

When the only Space Marine non-characters who get 2W are the Paladins themselves, no SoB should get it, honestly. They don't have a shadow of the Paladin's resilience.

Gief SoB termies already. Not artificier armour, proper big Termie-equivalent suits (Perhaps minus 5++, and with other weapons.))

For Miko: Wings of deliverance is like assault from deepstrike, but much better against assaulty armies (You effectively get to deepstrike, move, shoot AND assault) while useless against shooty armies.

You don't really need to nerf assaulters any more.

And... Nerf their offense and their price. They are too glass cannon atm, eating anything they reach but melting the second a Forgefiend appears.

Hari, please check my previous post? We crossposted.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Hari, please check my previous post? We crossposted.

Check'd. Some of the stuff in my previous post is directed to it.

Actually, since 40k doesn't use the 'declare all assaults before moving anything' model that Fantasy does, you're giving assaulty armies a chance to negate the Principalities' nastier shooting (meltas), hammer of wrath, assault bonuses and their nastier grenade upgrades - you can drop them in, but the enemy is free to assault them if you put them in the wrong place.

Also, they're not Jump Infantry, so they're still slow to retarget like Assault Centurions.

As for nerfing their offense - drop the heavy flamer or the flamer attacks? My version is S4 AP2 A2 or S8 AP2 A1, so that's already a heavy offensive nerf over Syd's version - and they still strike last against Marines, since there's no Initiative bonus over regular Sisters.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, since 40k doesn't use the 'declare all assaults before moving anything' model that Fantasy does, you're giving assaulty armies a chance to negate the Principalities' nastier shooting (meltas), hammer of wrath, assault bonuses and their nastier grenade upgrades - you can drop them in, but the enemy is free to assault them if you put them in the wrong place.

Also, they're not Jump Infantry, so they're still slow to retarget like Assault Centurions.

As for nerfing their offense - drop the heavy flamer or the flamer attacks? My version is S4 AP2 A2 or S8 AP2 A1, so that's already a heavy offensive nerf over Syd's version - and they still strike last against Marines, since there's no Initiative bonus over regular Sisters.

Yes, but then the enemy needs to have a unit within assault range. Since you are free to move and assault yourself in your own following turn, you place them 12' or so away from the nearest assault-eligible enemy, and proceed to do some happy chopping in your own turn.

I suggest lowering their price and offense to make them move viable; as it is you're paying 60 ppm for something that will die the moment anything s8 ap2 or better looks at them, like almost any powerfist ever. (Who cares if they nom most of the other squad if the 49-point sergeant kills 2 60-point models?)

If any MC as much as breathes on them they die, and many won't even need to Smash!

Drop their firepower, assault ability or both after preference and adjust price accordingly. Keep resilience as it is.

Haraldus:
Yeah, the fragility-per-points thing is an issue.... I realize belatedly that dropping from the Centurion's T5 to T4 makes Instant Death vastly more likely: there's lots of S9 and S8 out there, not so much S10. hadn't thought that through when I did it -- but a T5 Sister just seems wrong.
And yes, their weapon is over the top. Tempted to make it "just" an Eviscerator.
As for the armour, given that it's scaled down "girl-sized" Centurion Armour, they pretty much are Sisterminators, except for the two wounds. It's just that classic Terminator armour seems, well, unfeminine.

Furyou:
Making them something other than jump infantry is interesting. Not sure about it, but very interesting.
Also, if I'm reading your fire gauntlet weapon right, it doesn't have a melee mode, just shooting -- correct?

In general:
If we start with that terrifying 85 ppm cost, and drop the Sword of Fire down to a regular Eviscerator, that saves 30 points right there; take away the +1 to Hammer of Wrath when Deep Striking, and you save 40 points. Now you're down to a manageable 45 point model.
Hmm. Except that's exactly what a Seraphim with an Eviscerator would cost, and the Seraphim would have -1 to S, T, and W. That seems a bit off.

You could give them a discount on Eviscerators like Repentia, but Repentia get that because they tend to die before they get to use their giant chainsaws -- these things would almost certainly get to use them at least once.

Sigh.

Or we could go for broke and make these into Deep-Striking, Jump Unit Walkers. Walkers are good, right?

These seem kind of crazy, not sure fluffwise Centurion-equivalent armour for Sororitas makes sense and given how slow Centurions are Jump Packs at all seems improbable. The only things heavier than power armour that have Jump Packs that I can think of off the top of my head are all Eldar (Wasp Assault Walkers and Revenant Titans).

I've been working on my own Inquisition rules lately; I've rewritten Acts of Faith extensively but the Seraphim unit I've come up with is below:

Seraphim: WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 4, A 2, Ld 9, Sv 3+ (20pts)
Seraphim Superior: WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 4, A 3, Ld 9, Sv 3+ (25pts)

Unit Type: Jump Infantry. The Superior is Jump Infantry (Character).
Unit: Superior and 4-9 Seraphim

Equipment: Power armour, two bolt pistols, frag and krak grenades. Jump Pack.
Special Rules: Faithful (Seraphim) (I'm not going to go into this here; suffice to say I rewrote Acts of Faith to work more like the 3e Codex and they've got a couple of Assault-boosting Acts in addition to the basic ones). Seraphim Pistols (treat two pistols as a twin-linked pistol, counts as an extra close combat weapon, different for upgrade pistols). Descent of Angels (when Deep Striking before rolling for Scatter you may declare Descent of Angels, if you do this Seraphim unit may not Run or shoot during the Shooting phase but may charge during the Assault phase, using their Jump Packs). Guiding Light (this impacts Faithful, ignore it for now).

Options
Any Seraphim may replace one bolt pistol with a power weapon for +10pts or an Ascalion Lance (+1S/AP2 on the charge, AP3 otherwise) for +15pts.
Any Seraphim may replace one bolt pistol with a Praesidium Protectiva (4+ Inv save) for +10pts.
Any Seraphim may take meltabombs for +5pts
Up to two Seraphim may replace their bolt pistols with twin hand flamers (fire as a normal flamer, extra CCW) for +10pts or two plasma pistols (fire as a twin-linked plasma pistol, extra CCW, hits on AP2 in close combat) or two Inferno pistols (fire as a twin-linked Inferno pistol, extra CCW, hits on AP1 with Armourbane in close combat) for +20pts.
The Superior may replace her pistols with twin hand flamers or twin plasma pistols or twin inferno pistols at the same price, or she may replace one with a Brazier of Holy Fire (Flamer, also one-handed power sword) for +15pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Costs are tentative, the twin Inferno pistol should probably be closer to 25pts.

I repeat, no assaulting from reserve. And, Descent of Angels belong to the BA.

They should not the be the only unit allowed to benefit from pistol stats in CC when not even Cypher himself can.

I agree that a T5 Sister is very very wrong, but if you want to retain 'feminity' (How would you do that with Centurions anyway?)



Here is your boobplate! /eyeroll

I personally don't think boobplate is necessary and that the unique design style is enough, but hey, it's your models...

Melee mode is represented by the Smash and Armourbane in close combat special rules, leaving the 'Flaming Sword' aspect to the models.

I... don't like the idea of Terminator Armoured Sororitas. I'm not entirely sure why, I just don't. Also, that picture is horrendous, but if it wasn't for the boob plate, it would be kind of awesome. ><

I have no more solutions to the durability issue. Durability is a pain in the backside. I'm also not sure how to tone down their offense any without them suffering from Celestian Syndrome.

As for Cypher, he can use his pistols in CC. :p But this isn't a thread about Seraphim.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I repeat, no assaulting from reserve. And, Descent of Angels belong to the BA.

Descent of Angels is a name on the rule referred to in the 5e Marine books as Heroic Intervention, names are flexible. I'm not entirely sure about the problem with Assault from Deep Strike; the Blood Angels and the 5e Space Marines managed to do it for the entirety of 5e without breaking the game overmuch. You pay a premium for the unit and you're taking a tremendous risk on the Deep Strike scatter roll, it's not a reliable risk-free tactic. It gets an expensive unit to close combat effectively, it brings close combat back into relevance by requiring gunline armies to prepare for being charged instead of sitting around and being able to reliably count on shooting down CC armies before they get in.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I repeat, no assaulting from reserve. And, Descent of Angels belong to the BA.

Descent of Angels is a name on the rule referred to in the 5e Marine books as Heroic Intervention, names are flexible. I'm not entirely sure about the problem with Assault from Deep Strike; the Blood Angels and the 5e Space Marines managed to do it for the entirety of 5e without breaking the game overmuch. You pay a premium for the unit and you're taking a tremendous risk on the Deep Strike scatter roll, it's not a reliable risk-free tactic. It gets an expensive unit to close combat effectively, it brings close combat back into relevance by requiring gunline armies to prepare for being charged instead of sitting around and being able to reliably count on shooting down CC armies before they get in.

The issue is not assaulting from deepstrike in itself. That might be balanced.

The issue is that, at this stage, almost nobody can do it. If not even VV or Raven Guard can, Centurion equivalents damn well shouldn't be able to.

The name Descent of Angels is already in use by the BA. In the BA codex, DoA lets you reroll scatter results.