Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I too like the fact that now it's even better to come from reserves and play a longer battle.
It's what i did since the first codex anyway, always using the Web Portal (IMO the most unique aspect of the DE).

Just charging into battle is a one-trick pony and no-brainer style of playing i don't like anyway.

And now i can, again (and more than i the previous codex), field a large army in raiders that with speed and flexibility outsmarts the opponent.

morgoth wrote:
Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.

The amount of S4 shooting required to take down an AV10 vehicle is silly even without any saves involved, particularly since not everyone is a Space Marine with BS 4. Now the legendary "taking down our Fliers with Bolters" thing is simply asinine. Do you know how many Bolter Snap Shots does it take to strip all 3 HPs from a Flyer? 108 Snap Shots. That's without any kind of save, like 6+ cover from the Night Shields or 4+/3+ Jink. If somebody targeted my Fliers with S4 ground weapons, I'd laugh.

morgoth wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Or, you know, you could just clip a guy not carrying an AT weapon.

Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.

Tank shocking with Dark Eldar vehicles is anecdotal at best. When you're paper thin, you don't try to get in CC range with anything.

Are you serious?

Please tell me the chances of a random S4 bloke taking down an AV10 vehicle.

With enough raiders, you could potentially create a barrier behind the unit you are going to tank shock, then simply tank shock and have the unit removed from play due to being unable to fall back without being within your raider.

Box them in, DS in your archon with his WWP and his -LD, tank shock and laugh as your opponent simply has to remove his units

Obviously I doubt this is any sort of competitive play, but could be hilarious fun to attempt in some friendly games.

Solar Shock wrote:
With enough raiders, you could potentially create a barrier behind the unit you are going to tank shock, then simply tank shock and have the unit removed from play due to being unable to fall back without being within your raider.

Box them in, DS in your archon with his WWP and his -LD, tank shock and laugh as your opponent simply has to remove his units

Obviously I doubt this is any sort of competitive play, but could be hilarious fun to attempt in some friendly games.

This has always worked. I don't see why you need an archon, you just need to crunch his units in a U made of 3 Skimmers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Or, you know, you could just clip a guy not carrying an AT weapon.

Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.

Tank shocking with Dark Eldar vehicles is anecdotal at best. When you're paper thin, you don't try to get in CC range with anything.

Are you serious?

Please tell me the chances of a random S4 bloke taking down an AV10 vehicle.

I may be way too cautious.
But really what I meant is that next turn, those guys or their friends can either shoot your rear armor or charge you.
I don't think that's a great plan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SarisKhan wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.

The amount of S4 shooting required to take down an AV10 vehicle is silly even without any saves involved, particularly since not everyone is a Space Marine with BS 4. Now the legendary "taking down our Fliers with Bolters" thing is simply asinine. Do you know how many Bolter Snap Shots does it take to strip all 3 HPs from a Flyer? 108 Snap Shots. That's without any kind of save, like 6+ cover from the Night Shields or 4+/3+ Jink. If somebody targeted my Fliers with S4 ground weapons, I'd laugh.

You're replying to the wrong comment, this one was about tank shocking repeatedly to cause a fall back, which is just... not that tactically sound imo.

For the fliers, sure S4 sounds like a joke, but with AV10, S6 weapons deal a lot more damage than on AV12, S7, etc. AV10 from S8 shots is like 2+ to pen, 1+ from a lascan.
Meaning a TL lascan has 1/3rd to hit, and then auto glance, pen on 2+, followed by an explodes on 4+ - I don't like those odds from something that's costed so high.

morgoth wrote:

This has always worked. I don't see why you need an archon, you just need to crunch his units in a U made of 3 Skimmers.

The archon is for the -LD, as in to give you better odds at actually having them fail their check. Plus if you WWP the archon you actually can have the -LD on a couple units (assuming its an AOE -LD?) so could perform the tank shock trick on multiple units at once, not simply one unit.

With your idea are you suggesting;
A triangle of skimmers around a unit of ork boys lets say, with the third skimmer, instead of it sealing the triangle, it tank shocks into the centre, then if they fail they fall back into the two raiders and are destroyed, what happens if they pass the check and have to move to the sides but cant? is that also them destroyed? But tbh with the skimmers being long and thin, the unit may be able to squeeze down the sides, I dont really know, I've never tried this before.

Meaning a TL lascan has 1/3rd to hit, and then auto glance, pen on 2+, followed by an explodes on 4+ - I don't like those odds from something that's costed so high.

AP 2 Explodes on a 6, yeah?

It's also not quite 1/3 to hit, FTR.

A Twinlinked Las has : (11÷36)(5÷6)(1÷6) = .042% chance of exploding an AV 10 flier. I'd take those odds any day of the week.

Now, granted, if you allow your opponent to amass fire power on them they can go down pretty quickly. The key is, don't. Flier almost always have the initiative (ie they get to see where everything is before they come on the field). Use it to your advantage and you can generally keep those AV 10 fliers around a lot longer then you might think.

Solar Shock wrote:

morgoth wrote:

This has always worked. I don't see why you need an archon, you just need to crunch his units in a U made of 3 Skimmers.

The archon is for the -LD, as in to give you better odds at actually having them fail their check. Plus if you WWP the archon you actually can have the -LD on a couple units (assuming its an AOE -LD?) so could perform the tank shock trick on multiple units at once, not simply one unit.

With your idea are you suggesting;
A triangle of skimmers around a unit of ork boys lets say, with the third skimmer, instead of it sealing the triangle, it tank shocks into the centre, then if they fail they fall back into the two raiders and are destroyed, what happens if they pass the check and have to move to the sides but cant? is that also them destroyed? But tbh with the skimmers being long and thin, the unit may be able to squeeze down the sides, I dont really know, I've never tried this before.

No you don't get it.

If I tank shock in the center of that U, there is no spot for them to move out. they are deleted from the table.

It has been like that since 4th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Meaning a TL lascan has 1/3rd to hit, and then auto glance, pen on 2+, followed by an explodes on 4+ - I don't like those odds from something that's costed so high.

AP 2 Explodes on a 6, yeah?

It's also not quite 1/3 to hit, FTR.

A Twinlinked Las has : (11÷36)(5÷6)(1÷6) = .042% chance of exploding an AV 10 flier. I'd take those odds any day of the week.

Now, granted, if you allow your opponent to amass fire power on them they can go down pretty quickly. The key is, don't. Flier almost always have the initiative (ie they get to see where everything is before they come on the field). Use it to your advantage and you can generally keep those AV 10 fliers around a lot longer then you might think.

Lascan is AP1.
Immobilized = 33% destroyed for a flyer
TL Lascan is 11/36. it's not 1/3 it's just almost the same thing. It's just 9.3% sure.

But that's not even an anti-air weapon.

It may not be *that* fragile, and I should try it to get a better idea.

I just don't think it can be worth its point cost.

LasCannons are AP2.

And by my math, a TL lascannon is hitting a flyer ~31% of the time.

morgoth wrote:

No you don't get it.

If I tank shock in the center of that U, there is no spot for them to move out. they are deleted from the table.

It has been like that since 4th.

That is what i was saying But no worries.
However, for me that requires too many raiders in order to delete 1 unit.

Im suggesting, its possible with a line of raiders behind the enemy units, so 1 raider per unit, to then have the raiders in front tank shock, have them fail their check (which would be due to the combination of lowering their leadership and a generally low leadership anyway- so something like ork boys), forcing them to fall back into the other raider and be deleted. That then only requires 2 raiders, rather than 4, but with obviously the chance it can fail due to them passing. But with it only requiring two raiders, it means you can actually do this multiple times in a turn. Its a different idea to the U shape idea.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
LasCannons are AP2.

^^

 SarisKhan wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.

The amount of S4 shooting required to take down an AV10 vehicle is silly even without any saves involved, particularly since not everyone is a Space Marine with BS 4. Now the legendary "taking down our Fliers with Bolters" thing is simply asinine. Do you know how many Bolter Snap Shots does it take to strip all 3 HPs from a Flyer? 108 Snap Shots. That's without any kind of save, like 6+ cover from the Night Shields or 4+/3+ Jink. If somebody targeted my Fliers with S4 ground weapons, I'd laugh.

But when your flyer has 1-2 HP of damage on it already bolters suddenly become a threat.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
LasCannons are AP2.

And by my math, a TL lascannon is hitting a flyer ~31% of the time.

Well then, I've been fethed.


I think both our math agree you know.

Solar Shock wrote:

morgoth wrote:

This has always worked. I don't see why you need an archon, you just need to crunch his units in a U made of 3 Skimmers.

The archon is for the -LD, as in to give you better odds at actually having them fail their check. Plus if you WWP the archon you actually can have the -LD on a couple units (assuming its an AOE -LD?) so could perform the tank shock trick on multiple units at once, not simply one unit.

With your idea are you suggesting;
A triangle of skimmers around a unit of ork boys lets say, with the third skimmer, instead of it sealing the triangle, it tank shocks into the centre, then if they fail they fall back into the two raiders and are destroyed, what happens if they pass the check and have to move to the sides but cant? is that also them destroyed? But tbh with the skimmers being long and thin, the unit may be able to squeeze down the sides, I dont really know, I've never tried this before.

This works better with a venom and Reavers. Surround them with a unit of reavers, then tank shock into the middle with the venom. Pass or fail they are destroyed unless they Death Or Glory successfully.

Also, consider the following:

A unit of mandrakes manning quad-gun inside Aegis Defence Line - 4 TL BS 4 shots with 2+ constant cover for 136 points minimum. Sounds quite awesome for me.

 Vexler wrote:
Also, consider the following:

A unit of mandrakes manning quad-gun inside Aegis Defence Line - 4 TL BS 4 shots with 2+ constant cover for 136 points minimum. Sounds quite awesome for me.

Stick an objective on there too and camp the game out
But yeh mandrakes are looking sweeeet! A couple units infiltrating onto objectives, with a nice 2+ cover save, pushing out baleblasts while the rest of your army DS's to where its needed. I think DE have a real nice tactical codex this time round; if you want to play that way, with plenty of options to play a longer game. I mean even holding venoms at splinter cannon range in order to soften the enemy for a turn or two before coming in for a 2nd or 3rd turn strike with your now FNP, FC units.

mercury14 wrote:

But when your flyer has 1-2 HP of damage on it already bolters suddenly become a threat.

No, they are still laughable. You need 43.2 BS4 shots to do a single hull point, if I don't jink (night shields for 6+ cover).
Fired at my infantry, those bolters would do 19.2 wounding hits.
I specifically "complain" to my opponents that S4 can actually kill my flyers in the hopes that they do try and shoot them down with it.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

I specifically "complain" to my opponents that S4 can actually kill my flyers in the hopes that they do try and shoot them down with it.

Dark Eldar Tactics 101

 Leth wrote:
Which version hits at I10, Ignores Invisibility and rends?

I would go with that version.

Well, the other one hits at initiative "movement phase", and also ignores invisibility, though I will agree it doesn't rend.

I like the new bikes better, but I do think the old bladevanes were better as a stand alone thing.
I just like the new bikes because I like assaulting bikes, and old bikes were *not* that.

morgoth wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

I specifically "complain" to my opponents that S4 can actually kill my flyers in the hopes that they do try and shoot them down with it.

Dark Eldar Tactics 101

indeed! i believe that is something i shall be saying more often

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

But when your flyer has 1-2 HP of damage on it already bolters suddenly become a threat.

No, they are still laughable. You need 43.2 BS4 shots to do a single hull point, if I don't jink (night shields for 6+ cover).
Fired at my infantry, those bolters would do 19.2 wounding hits.
I specifically "complain" to my opponents that S4 can actually kill my flyers in the hopes that they do try and shoot them down with it.

Ha ha, I love adding mind games to 40k... You sir, are a scholar!

Careful who you try to mind game. Guy told me the same thing so I fired my 30 shoota boy mob at one ( 56 shoota shots and 3 rokkits) he laughed and said it was a trick and didn't jink.

He lost his flyer.

Mind tricks don't work on orks, only teef.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
Careful who you try to mind game. Guy told me the same thing so I fired my 30 shoota boy mob at one ( 56 shoota shots and 3 rokkits) he laughed and said it was a trick and didn't jink.
He lost his flyer.
Mind tricks don't work on orks, only teef.

That, I'd jink against. And I'd still be happy you chose to inflict half as many hits.

-Matt

The problem is, if there's a substantial quantity of S4 shooting coming your way, you have to consider a jink if you only have 1-2 HP left. I've unfortunately lost a couple Crimson Hunters that way by not jinking, then S4 gets a glance or two and you have no save.

Yes on average it takes a fair number of S4 shots to land a glance, however what people need to realize is that it's a low bell curve so 1-2 glances aren't terribly unlikely given 30 or so shots.

Is there anyway possible to scout move or infiltrate a Raider or Venom. I've not seen one. This is including Eldar. Is there a Eldar character that may allow this. Just curious.

Hollismason wrote:
Is there anyway possible to scout move or infiltrate a Raider or Venom. I've not seen one. This is including Eldar. Is there a Eldar character that may allow this. Just curious.

There is the strategic warlord trait.

Also if you play infiltrating IC can infiltrate the units they are attached to then Illic Nightspear and Karandras can both infiltrate.

May be something looking into for Scorpions , don't they infiltrate?

Can Dark Eldar field blobs? I don't think they're a deathstar army, primarily since they lack psykers for shennanigans, but a maximum strength unit of 15 Bloodbrides (or 20 Trueborn) led by a Succubus, Archon, or both with Webway Portal and/or Infiltrate would be ... interesting, albeit awfully fragile for their points.

For example, in my for-the-heck-of-it Pretty Killers list, I tried this:

Archon, Succubus, & Bloodbrides (the Arch-Succublob): 555 points
Archon w/ Animus Vitae, Huskblade (or maybe Agoniser), Haywire Grenades, Shadow Field, and (of course) Webway Portal.
Succubus w/ Helm of Spite (iz fashionable hat), Archite Glaive, & Haywire Grenades.
15 Bloodbrides, including Syren w/ Agoniser and 3 models w/ Shardnet & Impaler

I'm sure that particular example is flawed (e.g. forgot the Soul Trap), but y'all get the idea. Is there a version of this that can be made to work?

I have actually been considering some DE based deathstars. I am not convinced yet I have any worth taking but my initial ones to test are;
*Archon Court 4 medusae+4 Sslyth+Archon w/ WWP, shadow field, huskblade, and armour of misery. Excellent anti infantry punch when you first land and pretty good melee. Again decent price tag.
*Haemy+Grots; WWP, 4 Liquifiers, armour of misery, and crucible. Pretty good anti infantry damage and melee. Reasonable price tag.

With forgeworld;
*6-12 medusae+Archon w/ WWP+Tantalus to land then flame something dead.

With eldar;
*5 Spiritseers + archon w/ WWP, Shadow field, Armour of Misery + Irillyth + 12 clawed fiends; this is my re-imagined beast pack, the key components are 5 Lv2 telepathy psykers to hopefully get invisibility and to put down psychic shrieks, hit and run, the ability to either scout w/ night fight or DS with no scatter. I am still not convinced even this has what it takes to make an effective deathstar.

 ansacs wrote:

*Archon Court 4 medusae+4 Sslyth+Archon w/ WWP, shadow field, huskblade, and armour of misery. Excellent anti infantry punch when you first land and pretty good melee. Again decent price tag.

umm, 5 T3 models, 4 T5 models, unit is T3 against shooting.

Always have as many Sslyth as you have T3 models to ensure you are T5 against shooting.

or Sslyth + Urien