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I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.

Yup. For most of the original run, they had episode synopsis posted for season(s) to come. Nothing too detailed (just a few lines) but they were there for everyone to read. I remember looking at them to see what was coming. Imagine reading about the next season of the Mandalorian right now on Favreau's blog!

chaos0xomega wrote:
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

I might have liked it, had it not been for the expectations they brought upon themselves by linking to the original series.

When you connect to a previous franchise, THAT BRINGS EXPECTATIONS. If you're not going to live up to the expectations, make up your own names and do something unique instead of wrecking something old.

Starbuck was a smooth-talking con-man, not an insubordinate jerk. Boomer was not a boomer. If you want more female representation, whatever happened to Sheeba and Cassiopia and Athena?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

Just the whole big plot of crusade

Sure, but in terms of enemies within also Mr. Morden, Vorlon/Shadow agents, Psi Corps, that whole Earthgov civil war thing, etc. And then in terms of religion, its hard to even pick where to start, what with the Shadows and Vorlons having seeded religion into the younger races, the whole Valen angle with the Minbari, the various other weird religious elements of the series,etc.

In truth, B5 2.0 can lift a *lot* from the BSG reboot and it would all make sense and be true to the context of the original series. Replace Cylon skinjobs with Shadow/Vorlon biotech clones or more widespread infilitration by Psi Corps sleeper agents. You wouldn't need to do much with the religious aspects as christianity and other real world faiths are part of the established setting (and presumably will be part of the reboot) but you can put them into conflict with the other religious systems of the various alien empires, or go a lot further with the whole "Vorlons posed as angelic beings" thing to just have all of Christianity be a product of alien interference or whatever.

Oh, gods, no, do not look to BSG rebooted for inspiration. B5 fans do not want the main characters to be such awful people that by the third season we're rooting for the Shadows to win just to wipe the lot of them out...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.

As I recall, it was planned as a five season story. They got word the forth season would be their last so rushed the end of it a bit, but then got renewed anyways and now had to fill the space.

chaos0xomega wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

Just the whole big plot of crusade

Sure, but in terms of enemies within also Mr. Morden, Vorlon/Shadow agents, Psi Corps, that whole Earthgov civil war thing, etc. And then in terms of religion, its hard to even pick where to start, what with the Shadows and Vorlons having seeded religion into the younger races, the whole Valen angle with the Minbari, the various other weird religious elements of the series,etc.

In truth, B5 2.0 can lift a *lot* from the BSG reboot and it would all make sense and be true to the context of the original series. Replace Cylon skinjobs with Shadow/Vorlon biotech clones or more widespread infilitration by Psi Corps sleeper agents. You wouldn't need to do much with the religious aspects as christianity and other real world faiths are part of the established setting (and presumably will be part of the reboot) but you can put them into conflict with the other religious systems of the various alien empires, or go a lot further with the whole "Vorlons posed as angelic beings" thing to just have all of Christianity be a product of alien interference or whatever.

Sorry worded it badly. Didn't mean it was only thing. Meant that that whole overall plot of crusade was going to be about enemy within angle. The plague was just something to get characters together and in the excalibur ship. Sort of like how Sinclair and battle of the line memory block put things in motion for B5.

The plague would have been sorted out early season 2. Done. No more plague. Then get to the Real Meat of the story for which hints were being planted in the first half of the S1 already and the unfilmed scripts(worth reading if you haven't already!) gives even more view of where things were moving.

I'm sooooooo pissed off crusade got cancelled.


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 gorgon wrote:
Okay, I may have been dramatic with 'doggak'. But that last season felt aimless and like they were running out the clock. Maybe the concept was a Scouring of the Shire wind-down back to peacetime and something more like the early episodes, but the Scouring had more purpose and meaning. And wasn't 20% of the entire LotR saga.

Oh and "the hotel maid ate my notes"...uh, sure. As that Wikipedia snippet stated, it seemed more like things didn't go to plan and they were forced to rejigger everything in an ultimately unsatisfying way.

Well...what you are supposed when your plans were deleted?

Okay here's thing: Write plan loose plan of 22 episodes now.

Put them away. Don't read them. Don't even particularly think about it. Hell for safety throw them to garbage bin.

In about 5 years try to redo it in a hurry without referring them. While doing job of producer while setting up production getting going on again.


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 AduroT wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.

As I recall, it was planned as a five season story. They got word the forth season would be their last so rushed the end of it a bit, but then got renewed anyways and now had to fill the space.

Thhough the reshuffling wasn't THAT big. Originally S4 was supposed to end on the interrogation episode(imagine that as a season cliffhanger). So about 3 episode's worth needed to be created up. Problem was doing that while setting up production doing in a hurry(it was bit of a last minute renewal which resulted in Claudia leaving the show) trying to work it out from years old of memories.

JMS has given pretty detailed explanation of what happened, what were his plans and how he reworked the end of S4 and start of S5 to work things out.

 Vulcan wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

I might have liked it, had it not been for the expectations they brought upon themselves by linking to the original series.

When you connect to a previous franchise, THAT BRINGS EXPECTATIONS. If you're not going to live up to the expectations, make up your own names and do something unique instead of wrecking something old.

Starbuck was a smooth-talking con-man, not an insubordinate jerk. Boomer was not a boomer. If you want more female representation, whatever happened to Sheeba and Cassiopia and Athena?

100% this was my feeling too.
They changed so much of the original characters that the new BS wasn't really the same story any more. Sure the ship looked the same and the character names were the same and the whole "running from the cylons" was there, but after that it basically was totally different. It also felt like at the same time they were trying to put more women into the story (in a very ham-fisted way) they were also trying to just have more overt sex, which I dunno just felt wrong in Battlestar. Or at least the way they presented and showed it felt wrong.


I totally get that they were going for a more matured story and I loved them introducing a lot more politics into the story (esp since I recall that in the original the political elements were mostly phased out after the first few episodes and things within the fleet mostly settled down). But they changed so much. I'd honestly have likely enjoyed it more if it was totally fresh as a theme and if they'd just done the whole similar story pitch as Battlestar.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.

It was always supposed to be 5 seasons. JMS talks in a few places about following the traditional novel structure of Exposition, Rising Action, Climax, Falling Action, Resolution, with each of those being a season. Obviously the practicalities of making a network TV show ended up messing with that a bit for seasons 4 and 5.

I'm also not really sure it works from a TV structure POV. Having your climax in the middle seems like a bad idea and I think that proved to be somewhat true when the Shadow War ended as early as it did, leaving the show in a weird place. It may well have recovered from that if the final two seasons had been allowed to happen in the way JMS planned, but I'm not 100% convinced.

 Overread wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

I might have liked it, had it not been for the expectations they brought upon themselves by linking to the original series.

When you connect to a previous franchise, THAT BRINGS EXPECTATIONS. If you're not going to live up to the expectations, make up your own names and do something unique instead of wrecking something old.

Starbuck was a smooth-talking con-man, not an insubordinate jerk. Boomer was not a boomer. If you want more female representation, whatever happened to Sheeba and Cassiopia and Athena?

100% this was my feeling too.
They changed so much of the original characters that the new BS wasn't really the same story any more. Sure the ship looked the same and the character names were the same and the whole "running from the cylons" was there, but after that it basically was totally different. It also felt like at the same time they were trying to put more women into the story (in a very ham-fisted way) they were also trying to just have more overt sex, which I dunno just felt wrong in Battlestar. Or at least the way they presented and showed it felt wrong.


I totally get that they were going for a more matured story and I loved them introducing a lot more politics into the story (esp since I recall that in the original the political elements were mostly phased out after the first few episodes and things within the fleet mostly settled down). But they changed so much. I'd honestly have likely enjoyed it more if it was totally fresh as a theme and if they'd just done the whole similar story pitch as Battlestar.

I really enjoyed all the new versions of the characters - They are supposed to be redoing it again - might be a closer remake of the original - although to me why bother just remaking the original.

 Vulcan wrote:

Oh, gods, no, do not look to BSG rebooted for inspiration. B5 fans do not want the main characters to be such awful people that by the third season we're rooting for the Shadows to win just to wipe the lot of them out...

If your take away from nBSG is that the characters are all awful people then you took away the wrong message. The point was that they were all flawed people (well, except for Gaius, he was an awful person though he had a solid redemption arc) - i.e. they were all normal, regular people with their own challenges, issues, and demons traveling down the road to hell, paving it with good intentions as they went along. It was a refreshing change of pace from the more typical dramatic presentation of characters as all being somewhat rigid 2-dimensional paladins of truth, justice, and the American way or whatever.

100% this was my feeling too.

They changed so much of the original characters that the new BS wasn't really the same story any more. Sure the ship looked the same and the character names were the same and the whole "running from the cylons" was there, but after that it basically was totally different. It also felt like at the same time they were trying to put more women into the story (in a very ham-fisted way) they were also trying to just have more overt sex, which I dunno just felt wrong in Battlestar. Or at least the way they presented and showed it felt wrong.

Ok, but if they left everything basically the same then it would just be watching the same exact gak that you watched previously, just with better sfx and more room to make direct comparisons to the original - which would be miserable (imagine the discourse if they did this for B5: "Peter Jurasik was so much better as Londo than Idris Elba is, the way Idris said 'Mr. Garibaldi' in scene 4 of episode 21 is just wrong without the odd inflection and characteristic growl used by Jurasik in the same scene 20 years ago." - no thanks).

I'd honestly have likely enjoyed it more if it was totally fresh as a theme and if they'd just done the whole similar story pitch as Battlestar.

Then you would just be complaining that they ripped off and plagiarized BSG and that they should have just remade BSG instead. And sure - even if you personally wouldn't have said that, someone else would have. This is how it works, you can't please everyone. In general the approach taken by nBSG and now with this B5 reboot is the best approach to take IMO (and evidently the film/tv industry generally agrees).

It was always supposed to be 5 seasons. JMS talks in a few places about following the traditional novel structure of Exposition, Rising Action, Climax, Falling Action, Resolution, with each of those being a season. Obviously the practicalities of making a network TV show ended up messing with that a bit for seasons 4 and 5.
I'm also not really sure it works from a TV structure POV. Having your climax in the middle seems like a bad idea and I think that proved to be somewhat true when the Shadow War ended as early as it did, leaving the show in a weird place. It may well have recovered from that if the final two seasons had been allowed to happen in the way JMS planned, but I'm not 100% convinced.

Agreed. Books, film, television, and video games are all distinct mediums and the method and manner of storytelling for each one needs to differ as a result. Spending the last 20 out of 100 episodes on "resolution" would be absolutely miserable if all the action peaked during episodes 41-60 and largely settled from 61-80.

Claudia Christian wrote:I know some of you saw the announcement that WB is doing a B5 reboot series and I know you have lots of questions for me like “Are you playing Ivanova?” “Are there going to be telepaths?” “What year is it taking place in?”
Well folks, I know nothing…..zip…nada. Joe has kept us in the loop from day one on this, because he wants us involved with the show, but we have no idea at this time what's in the script or what the story is. Only Joe knows that for now, so you should go bug him about it. He won't tell you, but the results should be amusing.

Patricia Tallman wrote:Since the news broke that there is a #Babylon5 reboot in the works, I have been bombarded with questions. I will be on a podcast tonight, The 7Th Rule, talking a bit about it. Be sure to follow @Straczynski on twitter. His quote- "To answer all the questions, yes, it’s true, Babylon 5 is in active development as a series for the CW. We have some serious fans over at the network, and they’re eager to see this show happen. I’m hip deep into writing the pilot now, and will be running the series upon pickup." I know we all have questions! More will be revealed!

By god, Claudia Christian even writes in Ivanova's idiom

 Vulcan wrote:
I might have liked it, had it not been for the expectations they brought upon themselves by linking to the original series.

When you connect to a previous franchise, THAT BRINGS EXPECTATIONS. If you're not going to live up to the expectations, make up your own names and do something unique instead of wrecking something old.

Starbuck was a smooth-talking con-man, not an insubordinate jerk. Boomer was not a boomer. If you want more female representation, whatever happened to Sheeba and Cassiopia and Athena?

I mean...you're talking about a reboot of a one-season series that was 25 years old even at the time. It was very much out of the public consciousness, so it's really hard to act as if it was some kind of iconic work that Moore and company trampled on. Sure, at first it's a little jarring to old BSG fans to see Starbuck played by a woman. But Kara Thrace was a far better character than the cardboard cutout original Starbuck. I settled in pretty quickly with their changes after I realized that the writing, characters and performances were all far better than the original series.

Regarding the original female characters, all but one of them spent their time 'back at the ranch' while the men did 'the real work'. Militaries had changed since 1979, so it was appropriate for the show to change with them and show more women in front-line combat roles. But you also need to be economical with your characters. You can only feature so many of them. Would you have felt less bothered by fighter pilots named Cassiopeia and Sheeba being first-tier characters while male characters named Boomer and Starbuck became second- or third-tier? If so, why?


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 Mr Morden wrote:
I really enjoyed all the new versions of the characters - They are supposed to be redoing it again - might be a closer remake of the original - although to me why bother just remaking the original.

It's a little bit of a mystery what this new version is exactly. The executive producer (Sam Esmail, the guy behind Mr. Robot) has said it's a new story set within Ron Moore's nu-BSG mythology.

If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Then you would just be complaining that they ripped off and plagiarized BSG and that they should have just remade BSG instead. And sure - even if you personally wouldn't have said that, someone else would have. This is how it works, you can't please everyone. In general the approach taken by nBSG and now with this B5 reboot is the best approach to take IMO (and evidently the film/tv industry generally agrees).

Aye, but at the same time its much easier to get past something being inspired by something else and to enjoy it for what it is. Consider how many fantasy stories copied similar structures to Lord of the Rings. Each one might "rip off" part of the formula, but each one puts its own twists and turns on it. Heck look at GW and all the ideas they are inspired by from other franchises; or Starcraft and how it copies 40K etc... When you have something that is a fully separate story/lore/setting/product that copies some elements of other things, then not only is it able to do what it wants without constant comparison; its also much easier to separate the two.

When you, instead, have something that is outright based upon and is a retelling then its comparisons are going to be constant. When those characters are changed in the new version; when the story changes; when the setting and plot and structure chances you constantly keep comparing it back to the original (esp if you had fond memories of the original). So its a constant comparison and measuring stick. For some it becomes hard to appreciate the new thing because at the back of the mind is the original.

 gorgon wrote:
I mean...you're talking about a reboot of a one-season series

My brain went: "What? There was more than that!", so I checked - 24 episodes of the 1978–1979 season, then 10 episodes of Galactica 1980.

beast_gts wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I mean...you're talking about a reboot of a one-season series

My brain went: "What? There was more than that!", so I checked - 24 episodes of the 1978–1979 season, then 10 episodes of Galactica 1980.

Yeah it always surprises me too how short it was. Then again I think most of us saw it when we were much younger and when things were released per week. So those 24 episodes are half a year of releases; a touch more if released back to back with the second season of shows.

Another thing, certainly in the 90s when I saw a lot of these TV shows, was that they had the 6pm BB2 slot (at least when it wasn't tennis season...). So when one season/series/show ended, another replaced it, and often from the same time period/genre. So it was all one big sci-fi event that was able to go on for years.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.

Oh, very much this. The characters were awful, the relationships trashier and less mature than teen melodramas (with extra pain, rape and abuse), and the series as a whole traded 'character growth' for 'character damage.'

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.

Well, dark and tragic tales with very flawed, morally grey (or worse) characters go back to the birth of drama in ancient Greece. They didn't start with the 2000s. Now, you may have a case that television got darker around that time as it got more mature and less formula and saw an influx of talented storytellers. But there was plenty of 'grit' in movies and theater for a long, long time before then.

Look, if bright/shiny/campy etc is your taste, that's fine. But everything doesn't need to be written for you. BSG just wasn't for you, and that's fine. Different people like different things, and plenty of people (audiences and critics) liked it and there's nothing morally or emotionally wrong with them because they did.

I would say though that BSG is a *very* dark premise. The original wasn't that dark past the pilot because 1970s TV couldn't be. The 2000s version was a much more honest take on what that desperate situation would look like. Again, that realism may not be something that you're looking for, but others appreciate it.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.

They absolutely are normal flawed people. Your head has to be pretty far up your own ass if you think your own gak don't stink.Theres nothing about these people that are any different than basically everyone you know and associate with, other than the fact that they are on a spaceship fleeing for their lives. Basically for the most part real world problems that real world people deal with - alcoholism, broken marriages, broken families, bad romances, daddy issues, etc.

beast_gts wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I mean...you're talking about a reboot of a one-season series

My brain went: "What? There was more than that!", so I checked - 24 episodes of the 1978–1979 season, then 10 episodes of Galactica 1980.

Yep, it was a blip. And far stronger in its conception than execution despite the insane budgets for its day.

I think the only real concept with Galactica: 1980 was "how can we keep Galactica going for like 1/20th of its previous budget?"

Voss wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.

Oh, very much this. The characters were awful, the relationships trashier and less mature than teen melodramas (with extra pain, rape and abuse), and the series as a whole traded 'character growth' for 'character damage.'

Gee, I can't imagine there would be anything that might cause damage or trauma while fleeing from an existential crisis with the remaining handful of humanity that weren't obliterated on day 1 of a Holocaust. Nope, nothing about that sort of high pressure situation that would result in pain or bad decisions for anyone.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.

They absolutely are normal flawed people. Your head has to be pretty far up your own ass if you think your own gak don't stink.Theres nothing about these people that are any different than basically everyone you know and associate with, other than the fact that they are on a spaceship fleeing for their lives. Basically for the most part real world problems that real world people deal with - alcoholism, broken marriages, broken families, bad romances, daddy issues, etc.

And again...these already flawed people were also traumatized by the loss of their civilization and almost everyone they knew in a single day.

Edit: Nice ninjaing.

Yeah, I don't really get the "these people are awful" bit. Fundamentally they are pretty normal - mediocre and milquetoast even, dealing with fairly mundane baggage... and then they get thrust into whats basically the worst situation imaginable and have to try to survive the apocalypse, basically with nothing but the close on their backs, and try to make the best of an awful situation while navigating through a long series of decisions with no good or right answers.

What do you expect the outcome of that to be? Gumdrops and lemonade? High-brow philosophical musings from the captains chair? The series runs through the characters calling shots based on a position of moral rectitude rather than worldly pragmatism pretty early on and the dire consequences that result from doing so when up against an opponent with an entirely different value system that dgaf about your morals or ethics - the characters are pretty rapidly (for the most part) disabused of the notion that the black and white viewpoint that some of the people in this thread seem to have is realistic or even helpful in such a situation - though the struggle between doing the right thing and doing things that are right for the situation remains persistent throughout the series and is the source of no small amount of conflict and angst.

Let’s also remember Adama and Tigh were meant to be retiring. One suspects that given Galactica was effectively being semi-mothballed at the time of the attack, her crew might not have been The Best of the Best. It seems entirely reasonable they were slack offs being put somewhere relatively harmless.

That we can chart their stresses and lows makes for far more engaging TV if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, back to the possible B5 reboot.

I have good reason to be optimistic. The original as well covered was ground breaking for its time. Not just it’s overarching narrative approach, but the themes it approached too.

Since then, TV and the appetites of those who watch it have expanded quite considerably, as has the background political picture. Whilst not directly comparable in terms of genre, stuff like Sopranos, The Wire etc have all expanded the same boundaries. So who knows how much more they can delve into the political quandaries?

And it’s the same head honcho in the driving seat - a writer who’s stock has arguably only increased since B5 concluded. So he may enjoy far greater creative freedom this time around, as both he and the concept are very much tried, tested and dare I say trusted?

There are miles and miles of middle ground between bright and shiny and negligent, abusive alcoholics who get innocent people killed and don’t seem to care. Any characters who started out “normal and flawed” rather than already ruined garbage people were made to look even worse than them by the end of the third season.

I’m not joking when I say these people aren’t normal. At least they’re not people I know and associate with, and if you claim that they are “normal” as in representative of the average American, then I reiterate to you that you don’t have to know destructive people. I would not allow my circle of friends, coworkers and acquaintances to be that toxic—and I don’t wa t that garbage in my escapism.

Babylon 5 had real, flawed people without being over the top grimderp. It’s possible to have flawed people without your show turning into endless misery porn.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There are miles and miles of middle ground between bright and shiny and negligent, abusive alcoholics who get innocent people killed and don’t seem to care. Any characters who started out “normal and flawed” rather than already ruined garbage people were made to look even worse than them by the end of the third season.

I’m not joking when I say these people aren’t normal. At least they’re not people I know and associate with, and if you claim that they are “normal” as in representative of the average American, then I reiterate to you that you don’t have to know destructive people. I would not allow my circle of friends, coworkers and acquaintances to be that toxic—and I don’t wa t that garbage in my escapism.

Just because you hold your immediate acquaintances to high standards doesn't mean that these people don't exist and aren't common (and in reality I'm willing to bet that there are people amongst your friends, family, and acquaintances are just as damaged and fethed up, you're just not privy to all the details of their personal lives like you are with a tv character, or overlook their flaws for their redeeming qualities and because "they go to church on sundays and volunteer at the homeless shelter".

And your "don't seem to care" comment really makes me wonder if you even watched the show, or whether or not you are recalling it properly. No small amount of alcoholism on the show on the parts of several characters is fueled by angst and guilt over their actions. A rather considerable amount of angst, inner, external, and interpersonal conflict on the show is fueled by guilt and anger and the impacts and consequences resulting from various decisions made. Theres only a handful of characters that are actually as heartless and soulless as you claim, and pretty much all of them are definitively the villains in the story.

and I don’t wa t that garbage in my escapism.

Then don't watch it. Its really that simple. This isn't being made for you. You are just one person in a sea of billions who might or might not watch the show. JMS is not going to lose a second of sleep worrying about if BobtheInquisitor is going to clutch his pearls over how his characters are written. There are plenty of people out there who enjoyed and appreciated "that garbage" for its gritty and realistic portrayal of space war and the impact it has on the people fighting it and would long for more. If you want your characters to all be heroic and morally inflexible paladins, theres plenty of other scifi out there for you to enjoy.

Babylon 5 had real, flawed people without being over the top grimderp. It’s possible to have flawed people without your show turning into endless misery porn.

Man, you must have absolutely loathed Game of Thrones if you qualify BSG as "misery porn".

You say “then don’t watch it.” I already told you I stopped watching it. I’m not against other people enjoying it—I’m against making the B5 reboot in its image. That is the topic of the thread. B5 would absolutely be ruined if given the same treatment. Fundamentally B5 is an optimistic show, where humans (and the younger races) grow and learn to stand on their own. BSG is fundamentally a pessimistic show where “it has happened before and it will happen again.” It reiterated again and again that humanity is trapped in an endless cycle of hatred, violence and misery. The characters for each show fit their themes; inserting BSG-style characters into B5 would break it.


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As for Game of Thrones, I did stop watching it after the first season. However, I read the books up until Tyrion On A Boat. Having an engaging plot and intrigue can keep me interested even when most of the characters don’t, just as BSG kept me watching while I still thought “they have a plan”. In both cases, I stopped when either the misery outweighed my interest in the plot or when it became clear there wasn’t a plot there at all.

And thats my point. Don't watch it. By it I mean the B5 reboot. JMS has already indicated he admires the BSG reboot and is using it as a source of inspiration for the B5 reboot. Too bad - guess you won't like it since you think it'll be ruined - so don't watch it.

Myself and quite a few others evidently disagree with you. We will be watching it, and enjoying it.

What absolutely will not happen is that JMS will wander into dakka, see this thread, see your posts, and go "oh no, BobtheInquisitor won't like this, better scrap my plans". You're not going to change anything. JMS is more than aware of some peoples mixed feelings (to put it politely) towards BSG - he is on record disagreeing, defending the show, etc. Ron D. Moore happens to be a friend of his, and he has stated in the past that he reviewed Rons scripts and treatments and gave him advice on it while it was in development.

Nice deflection Bob, but the below post seems very much about the existence of "dark and gritty" entertainment -- while *just* toeing the line on judging people who enjoy it -- and not about the path that the Babylon 5 reboot would take.

If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.

Again, you can see tragic stories of flawed, self-destructive jackholes in the earliest dramas we know of, and they never went away. Obviously these stories connect with some segments of humanity. From my perspective, it seems like you're really only considering sci-fi television, a lot of which probably did follow the Star Trek template up until the mid-90s/early 2000s. B5 still followed a lot of the ST formula.

IIRC, Ron Moore said what they did on BSG was everything he wasn't allowed to do on ST. So given a situation where the showrunner was intentionally turning ST on its head and breaking its rules...sure, it makes sense that you wouldn't like it if ST was your thing.

Getting this back on topic, I don't think some of us are saying that B5 should mirror BSG in *tone*. At least I'm not. It's that reimagining it, changing up the formula, trying new things, etc. like BSG did is a better way to go then just serving up a rehash with new actors OR some fan service-y continuation with better sets and FX that breaks no new ground. When David Lynch revisited Twin Peaks, he intentionally avoided giving people more of the gang chillin' at the police station like it was 1990. Without going into it, he really even rubbed fans' noses in it. But after pushing past that, I saw what he gave us was so much better...another original vision and probably Lynch's career masterpiece, IMO. And heck, that WAS a continuation of the original show.

So I'm glad JMS wants to push boundaries and mix it up. I may like it...or I may not. But it sounds like it will at least be interesting and original, and that will get me watching where the reverse would not.

 gorgon wrote:
Nice deflection Bob, but the below post seems very much about the existence of "dark and gritty" entertainment -- while *just* toeing the line on judging people who enjoy it -- and not about the path that the Babylon 5 reboot would take.

If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.

Again, you can see tragic stories of flawed, self-destructive jackholes in the earliest dramas we know of, and they never went away. Obviously these stories connect with some segments of humanity. From my perspective, it seems like you're really only considering sci-fi television, a lot of which probably did follow the Star Trek template up until the mid-90s/early 2000s. B5 still followed a lot of the ST formula.

IIRC, Ron Moore said what they did on BSG was everything he wasn't allowed to do on ST. So given a situation where the showrunner was intentionally turning ST on its head and breaking its rules...sure, it makes sense that you wouldn't like it if ST was your thing.

Getting this back on topic, I don't think some of us are saying that B5 should mirror BSG in *tone*. At least I'm not. It's that reimagining it, changing up the formula, trying new things, etc. like BSG did is a better way to go then just serving up a rehash with new actors OR some fan service-y continuation with better sets and FX that breaks no new ground. When David Lynch revisited Twin Peaks, he intentionally avoided giving people more of the gang chillin' at the police station like it was 1990. Without going into it, he really even rubbed fans' noses in it. But after pushing past that, I saw what he gave us was so much better...another original vision and probably Lynch's career masterpiece, IMO. And heck, that WAS a continuation of the original show.

So I'm glad JMS wants to push boundaries and mix it up. I may like it...or I may not. But it sounds like it will at least be interesting and original, and that will get me watching where the reverse would not.

Agreed in all respects well not seen the redone Twin Peaks as got bored with the original.