FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
It might not have been planned as a single-print run originally; we do not know if the pandemic throwing a wrench into things messed it up in that regard.
I strongly suspect that this isn't the case. I've no special insight, obviously, but since the economic shutdown started I've been regulalry checking my retailers (half dozen of them) for specific stuff I want, but it's all been perpetually out of stock. Like, all of it, even little things like a Necromunda gang or a squad of Primaris, let alone the bigger things I was after. This continued long after the production started back up (couple of months ago now?). Only now is it gradually becoming available again. I kind of got the idea that GW have been plowing almost all of their efforts into this new 9th box, which is to say that I think that production of their other items has suffered in the mean time due to Covid, but that the resources they would have dedicated to this launch probably haven't.
Yeah, I was wrong and did not think that statement through enough before making it.
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
This is just GW learning from nintendo, like they've learned a lot from shady practices in the video gaming industry.
Deliberately under produce your first run, talk it up a lot, and people will jump over themselves to buy it all for FOMO. Then you can wave around how stupendously popular your product is that it sold out in seconds. Then a bit later you come out with more, and people will trip over themselves again to buy it just in case this too will sell out in minutes for FOMO.
It's all marketing baby.
I dunno if that is shady, it is still the customer making a poor decision here if they buy a product that is not worth X amount of money to them. Such a tactic does exploit a certain mentality, but at the same time I see it as the company shrugging and going 'well if people want to be this foolish' then filling a demand that the customer still created. That said, I do not feel this is GW's (or even Nintendo's) intent, I feel it is accidental. Because bar evidence otherwise the default assumption should always be incompetence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
It might not have been planned as a single-print run originally; we do not know if the pandemic throwing a wrench into things messed it up in that regard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: Dont want the app? Don’t get it, but as is tradition there will be a ton of posts calling people idiots for seeing the value in it. Just getting ahead of the curve.
Agreed, the amount of offense some people are taking over this app is just silly.
Companies put literally millions of dollars into figuring out ways to get people to buy their product impulsively. What chance does the average consumer have? Tween having to work, have a family, a social life, manage chores. How much time and energy does a person have in their life to research something? I mean, richer folks literally hire people whose business is to tell them how to make informed purchasing decisions. But what chance does the average consumer have when the company is shouting "BUY! NOW! ELSE IT WILL BE ALL GONE! YOU'LL MISS EVERYTHING! DON'T HESITATE!". Especially if they decide to take the time to think and research and, whoops, they did want the product, but it's all gone now. Shoulda not thought and consumed immediately like other people did.
Like, really, the power disparity between consumers (and employees) and businesses is dramatic.
All it takes is thinking "is X product worth Y price to me?" It is people's own fault they get wrapped up in superficial bullcrap and let it affect their reasoning. Being able to logically evaluate it a rather critical life skill. Is it kind of crappy of a company to exploit that so many people refuse to develop that skill? Yeah. It is setting people up to fail at their reasoning? Yeah. But the failure is still on the consumer if they buy a product that was not worth the price to them.
No, the failure is on the company for using the dramatic power difference over the consumer. It's not consumer's fault that literally the entirety of society is set up in such a way as to refuse them the tools to make logical choices. There is no homo economicus, and people are not pure creatures of logic. It is easy to manipulate nearly anybody with the right tools, tools that companies invest millions in discovering and refining, all the while they ALSO lobby to have the ability to investigate their practices stripped from the consumer. And this doesn't do into how, in America, there is literally no education about consumption, and barely any about economics, leaving such things in the hands of families. Which, surprise surprise, advantages rich families with free time and generational wealth verse poor (and often minority) families.
The system's crooked and intended so that you cannot make a truly informed decision.
BoomWolf wrote: Think on the bright side-this means they are being delivered into legends and might not being touched for the point increases from their current prices
Most of their units were already overpriced compared to their equivalents in other factions. No strategems, no warlord traits. This is sad when what we had with IA 13 is considered. There was no reason to move R&H OOP, other than to free up resources for MORE PRIMARIS.
GW knows it's community enough to know that they don't need to lie about availability to push sales. I don't recall ONE starter box or boxed set that didn't sell out the preorders.
Funny, I can think of lots, until very recently. It didn't start until the two faction AoS boxes that were limited so they would intentionally sell out on day 1.
Not even the first crowned king of 'limited time only'- the Space Hulk remake- did that (not that it mattered in the long run, since they brought it back multiple times)
Faced between GW enacting a controlled-availability plan to lure people into buying product they would not otherwise purchase, or just not always being right on their estimations of how much to produce, I find the latter more plausible. Especially given the complete lack of evidence for the former.
There's not any evidence for the latter either. It's all supposition. Either GW is enacting malicious practices, or they are dumb enough that their stupidity mirrors those practices. And, ultimately, the motivation is sort of immaterial to the result, which is the same.
The whole point of advertising is to make sure people don't make informed purchasing decisions and instead are manipulated into making decisions more favorable to the seller. Companies spend about $500 billion a year on advertising, and at least half of that spend is aimed not at simply making the consumer aware the product exists, but on manipulating them into buying a product they are already aware of yet would not otherwise buy.
The point of view that says "if you don't have the willpower to resist that $250 billion of carefully engineered emotional manipulation you're just a failure as a human being" has always struck me as extremely curious. Humans vary a bit from person to person, but we have very well-defined limits overall that can be measured and averaged. Just as we can calculate the amount of force required to overcome the bone resistance of the average human arm, we can also calculate the amount of manipulation required to overcome or at least to seriously undermine the average person's logical facilities.
Nobody would say the failure is on you if your bones break because you should have had stronger bones and bigger muscles to shield those bones, yet many people will happily tell people who have been manipulated that it's their own fault for not having stronger willpower or more resist logical reasoning facilities. It's fascinatingly ironic, because it represents just the sort of logical failure that these very same people are attributing to others.
GW knows it's community enough to know that they don't need to lie about availability to push sales. I don't recall ONE starter box or boxed set that didn't sell out the preorders.
Funny, I can think of lots, until very recently. It didn't start until the two faction AoS boxes that were limited so they would intentionally sell out on day 1.
Not even the first crowned king of 'limited time only'- the Space Hulk remake- did that (not that it mattered in the long run, since they brought it back multiple times)
Faced between GW enacting a controlled-availability plan to lure people into buying product they would not otherwise purchase, or just not always being right on their estimations of how much to produce, I find the latter more plausible. Especially given the complete lack of evidence for the former.
No, no.
GW ARE EVIL!!! PLEASE GW, GIVE ME MORE PLASTIC CRACK!!!
I swear some people are worst than a meth junkie (and I work with recovering drug addicts) and both meth junkies and mini wargamers behave toward their dealer in similar ways. LOL
GW isn't evil. It is amoral. Like any business of a sufficient size.
So legitimately how many units do you think GW made of this "limited edition release"?
I think it would shock me if it was actually over 10,000 units world wide. I don't understand the advertising something for a month to make it available in a limited format with only crickets left for those who were not able to get one of the limited box sets.
Really think someone needs to go back to math. Another part of me thinks that GW has its a box set as "limited release" to get the hype up... then sales 70 percent of the product made holding back 30 percent to sell on ebay through a fake vendor but is truly them after they intentionally inflated the price. Maybe it is GW doing the scalping or atleast someone who works for them as I don't see how all these "scalpers" seem to get so many units of a limited edition product unless they are a vendor or have connections with GW. Sounds about as shady as it probably is.
I wouldn't put it past GW on a moral level to scalp its own releases, but there is zero chance they would be able to get away with it, and zero chance they are dumb enough to think they could and therefore to try it.
angel of death 007 wrote: So legitimately how many units do you think GW made of this "limited edition release"?
I think it would shock me if it was actually over 10,000 units world wide. I don't understand the advertising something for a month to make it available in a limited format with only crickets left for those who were not able to get one of the limited box sets.
Really think someone needs to go back to math. Another part of me thinks that GW has its a box set as "limited release" to get the hype up... then sales 70 percent of the product made holding back 30 percent to sell on ebay through a fake vendor but is truly them after they intentionally inflated the price. Maybe it is GW doing the scalping or atleast someone who works for them as I don't see how all these "scalpers" seem to get so many units of a limited edition product unless they are a vendor or have connections with GW. Sounds about as shady as it probably is.
It is over 10k by a large magnitude, that number isn't even in the ballpark.
yukishiro1 wrote: I wouldn't put it past GW on a moral level to scalp its own releases, but there is zero chance they would be able to get away with it, and zero chance they are dumb enough to think they could and therefore to try it.
Doesn't mean it has to be GW the company, could always be someone who works high enough up to have a "friend" get so many units and make money on the side. If something looks shady it usually is. And odd ball scalpers who magically show up on the net listings things at double the price and having multiple units when vendors can only get so many units means someone higher up is doing something shady or turns an amazing blind eye to it.
For GW regulating the stuff it does, fake exchange rates, max discounts, etc... you really think they couldn't artificially inflate prices to sell stuff on the side through a "Satellite" business not affiliated directly with GW?. If something looks a certain way it is usually the way it looks, people have a tendency to try and make it something else believing that businesses have ethics when all the have is a profit margin at the end of the day.
angel of death 007 wrote: So legitimately how many units do you think GW made of this "limited edition release"?
I think it would shock me if it was actually over 10,000 units world wide. I don't understand the advertising something for a month to make it available in a limited format with only crickets left for those who were not able to get one of the limited box sets.
Really think someone needs to go back to math. Another part of me thinks that GW has its a box set as "limited release" to get the hype up... then sales 70 percent of the product made holding back 30 percent to sell on ebay through a fake vendor but is truly them after they intentionally inflated the price. Maybe it is GW doing the scalping or atleast someone who works for them as I don't see how all these "scalpers" seem to get so many units of a limited edition product unless they are a vendor or have connections with GW. Sounds about as shady as it probably is.
It is over 10k by a large magnitude, that number isn't even in the ballpark.
To sell out on their webpage in UK in 10 minutes and then in the USA in 10 minutes.... it sure as hell isn't 100k... I think 10k is a good estimate as they have probably promised many to real vendors and some to fake vendors. I doubt GW website did anywhere near 10k units in USA or UK in 10 minutes. I would say ask GW but even though they are a stock based company they are very shady about what they do.
yukishiro1 wrote: I wouldn't put it past GW on a moral level to scalp its own releases, but there is zero chance they would be able to get away with it, and zero chance they are dumb enough to think they could and therefore to try it.
Doesn't mean it has to be GW the company, could always be someone who works high enough up to have a "friend" get so many units and make money on the side. If something looks shady it usually is. And odd ball scalpers who magically show up on the net listings things at double the price and having multiple units when vendors can only get so many units means someone higher up is doing something shady or turns an amazing blind eye to it.
For GW regulating the stuff it does, fake exchange rates, max discounts, etc... you really think they couldn't artificially inflate prices to sell stuff on the side through a "Satellite" business not affiliated directly with GW?. If something looks a certain way it is usually the way it looks, people have a tendency to try and make it something else believing that businesses have ethics when all the have is a profit margin at the end of the day.
angel of death 007 wrote: So legitimately how many units do you think GW made of this "limited edition release"?
I think it would shock me if it was actually over 10,000 units world wide. I don't understand the advertising something for a month to make it available in a limited format with only crickets left for those who were not able to get one of the limited box sets.
Really think someone needs to go back to math. Another part of me thinks that GW has its a box set as "limited release" to get the hype up... then sales 70 percent of the product made holding back 30 percent to sell on ebay through a fake vendor but is truly them after they intentionally inflated the price. Maybe it is GW doing the scalping or atleast someone who works for them as I don't see how all these "scalpers" seem to get so many units of a limited edition product unless they are a vendor or have connections with GW. Sounds about as shady as it probably is.
It is over 10k by a large magnitude, that number isn't even in the ballpark.
To sell out on their webpage in UK in 10 minutes and then in the USA in 10 minutes.... it sure as hell isn't 100k... I think 10k is a good estimate as they have probably promised many to real vendors and some to fake vendors. I doubt GW website did anywhere near 10k units in USA or UK in 10 minutes. I would say ask GW but even though they are a stock based company they are very shady about what they do.
You just have no sense of scale. it's well over 100k. 10k wouldn't even be enough to cover a major metroplex in the U.S. and I can tell you that 100% that just the stores locally had about 45 each allocated to them.
Not Online!!! wrote: Pft what do you think i did write the about 5 Mails over 8th for then?
Heck gw knows the demands is there considering how ia13 literally multiplied the player numbers.
Ok, that's great! Gak takes time to get done, don't stop repping your team.
Literally every factions player base wants their faction either expanded or brought into existence, that takes time especially for factions being built from scratch. But as others have also said, GW removing support for R&H at 9e launch could be a good indicator that there might be something soon.
It's also a blessing in disguise because if they also don't get Legends rules then it gives us an excuse to pester GW about how we're supposed to play with the sack wearing hooligans they sold us.
Not Online!!! wrote: However so far i got no answer in any regards what so ever and i explicitly asked them if there was an actual dex in the work.
Niet nada, so don't just assume i didn't voice my complaints.
Did you honestly expect an answer? GW is never going to tell anyone outside of the company anything about something they haven't already announced publicly unless there's an NDA.
Smaller companies can afford to do that just to build hype, but for big companies it's bad business because it will influence consumer purchasing habits in unpredictable ways.
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
This is just GW learning from nintendo, like they've learned a lot from shady practices in the video gaming industry.
Deliberately under produce your first run, talk it up a lot, and people will jump over themselves to buy it all for FOMO. Then you can wave around how stupendously popular your product is that it sold out in seconds. Then a bit later you come out with more, and people will trip over themselves again to buy it just in case this too will sell out in minutes for FOMO.
It's all marketing baby.
I dunno if that is shady, it is still the customer making a poor decision here if they buy a product that is not worth X amount of money to them. Such a tactic does exploit a certain mentality, but at the same time I see it as the company shrugging and going 'well if people want to be this foolish' then filling a demand that the customer still created. That said, I do not feel this is GW's (or even Nintendo's) intent, I feel it is accidental. Because bar evidence otherwise the default assumption should always be incompetence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
It might not have been planned as a single-print run originally; we do not know if the pandemic throwing a wrench into things messed it up in that regard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: Dont want the app? Don’t get it, but as is tradition there will be a ton of posts calling people idiots for seeing the value in it. Just getting ahead of the curve.
Agreed, the amount of offense some people are taking over this app is just silly.
Companies put literally millions of dollars into figuring out ways to get people to buy their product impulsively. What chance does the average consumer have? Tween having to work, have a family, a social life, manage chores. How much time and energy does a person have in their life to research something? I mean, richer folks literally hire people whose business is to tell them how to make informed purchasing decisions. But what chance does the average consumer have when the company is shouting "BUY! NOW! ELSE IT WILL BE ALL GONE! YOU'LL MISS EVERYTHING! DON'T HESITATE!". Especially if they decide to take the time to think and research and, whoops, they did want the product, but it's all gone now. Shoulda not thought and consumed immediately like other people did.
Like, really, the power disparity between consumers (and employees) and businesses is dramatic.
All it takes is thinking "is X product worth Y price to me?" It is people's own fault they get wrapped up in superficial bullcrap and let it affect their reasoning. Being able to logically evaluate it a rather critical life skill. Is it kind of crappy of a company to exploit that so many people refuse to develop that skill? Yeah. It is setting people up to fail at their reasoning? Yeah. But the failure is still on the consumer if they buy a product that was not worth the price to them.
No, the failure is on the company for using the dramatic power difference over the consumer. It's not consumer's fault that literally the entirety of society is set up in such a way as to refuse them the tools to make logical choices. There is no homo economicus, and people are not pure creatures of logic. It is easy to manipulate nearly anybody with the right tools, tools that companies invest millions in discovering and refining, all the while they ALSO lobby to have the ability to investigate their practices stripped from the consumer. And this doesn't do into how, in America, there is literally no education about consumption, and barely any about economics, leaving such things in the hands of families. Which, surprise surprise, advantages rich families with free time and generational wealth verse poor (and often minority) families.
The system's crooked and intended so that you cannot make a truly informed decision.
BoomWolf wrote: Think on the bright side-this means they are being delivered into legends and might not being touched for the point increases from their current prices
Most of their units were already overpriced compared to their equivalents in other factions. No strategems, no warlord traits. This is sad when what we had with IA 13 is considered. There was no reason to move R&H OOP, other than to free up resources for MORE PRIMARIS.
GW produces what people buy...
This isn't strictly true.
Fair point, I did elaborate a bit further later on but that statement was more of a sentiment and I should have made such clear. End point is that GW would not produce so many SM if they weren't so popular.
GW knows it's community enough to know that they don't need to lie about availability to push sales. I don't recall ONE starter box or boxed set that didn't sell out the preorders.
Funny, I can think of lots, until very recently. It didn't start until the two faction AoS boxes that were limited so they would intentionally sell out on day 1.
Not even the first crowned king of 'limited time only'- the Space Hulk remake- did that (not that it mattered in the long run, since they brought it back multiple times)
Faced between GW enacting a controlled-availability plan to lure people into buying product they would not otherwise purchase, or just not always being right on their estimations of how much to produce, I find the latter more plausible. Especially given the complete lack of evidence for the former.
There's not any evidence for the latter either. It's all supposition. Either GW is enacting malicious practices, or they are dumb enough that their stupidity mirrors those practices. And, ultimately, the motivation is sort of immaterial to the result, which is the same.
The baseline assumption is incompetence. Say someone is running, then trips and falls. Someone else helps them up. One does not jump to 'they intentionally tripped in order to get that person to help them' as the first explanation without some evidence to justify it. Especially if the runner has tripped before. A lot.
yukishiro1 wrote: I wouldn't put it past GW on a moral level to scalp its own releases, but there is zero chance they would be able to get away with it, and zero chance they are dumb enough to think they could and therefore to try it.
Doesn't mean it has to be GW the company, could always be someone who works high enough up to have a "friend" get so many units and make money on the side. If something looks shady it usually is. And odd ball scalpers who magically show up on the net listings things at double the price and having multiple units when vendors can only get so many units means someone higher up is doing something shady or turns an amazing blind eye to it.
For GW regulating the stuff it does, fake exchange rates, max discounts, etc... you really think they couldn't artificially inflate prices to sell stuff on the side through a "Satellite" business not affiliated directly with GW?. If something looks a certain way it is usually the way it looks, people have a tendency to try and make it something else believing that businesses have ethics when all the have is a profit margin at the end of the day.
angel of death 007 wrote: So legitimately how many units do you think GW made of this "limited edition release"?
I think it would shock me if it was actually over 10,000 units world wide. I don't understand the advertising something for a month to make it available in a limited format with only crickets left for those who were not able to get one of the limited box sets.
Really think someone needs to go back to math. Another part of me thinks that GW has its a box set as "limited release" to get the hype up... then sales 70 percent of the product made holding back 30 percent to sell on ebay through a fake vendor but is truly them after they intentionally inflated the price. Maybe it is GW doing the scalping or atleast someone who works for them as I don't see how all these "scalpers" seem to get so many units of a limited edition product unless they are a vendor or have connections with GW. Sounds about as shady as it probably is.
It is over 10k by a large magnitude, that number isn't even in the ballpark.
To sell out on their webpage in UK in 10 minutes and then in the USA in 10 minutes.... it sure as hell isn't 100k... I think 10k is a good estimate as they have probably promised many to real vendors and some to fake vendors. I doubt GW website did anywhere near 10k units in USA or UK in 10 minutes. I would say ask GW but even though they are a stock based company they are very shady about what they do.
You just have no sense of scale. it's well over 100k. 10k wouldn't even be enough to cover a major metroplex in the U.S. and I can tell you that 100% that just the stores locally had about 45 each allocated to them.
Not every store that sells GW products got 45 copies. Maybe some of the larger actual GW stores did. Our LGS was allotted 8 copies. A major online vendor I deal with was allotted 45. No one could do preorders until today though several could make lists for clients and VIPS.
How many locations or vendors got 45 copies was probably limited again there are not many actual GW stores and I doubt if even GW stores got a full 45 units depending on sales/ location. So there were X amount of the units assigned for vendors and GW had X amount of units they could sell online. For GW online sales through themselves they didn't have 10k units in USA or UK maybe 1000 for each location. Which is didn't go to vendors was just direct sales to consumers who purchased online. Most of their limited edition releases don't exceed 1000 units. Box sets are an exception though. Again it isn't 100k units. There is absolutely no way that is like Xbox unit numbers for a limited release. GW is probably around 10 or maybe 20k units.
angel of death 007 wrote: So legitimately how many units do you think GW made of this "limited edition release"?
I think it would shock me if it was actually over 10,000 units world wide. I don't understand the advertising something for a month to make it available in a limited format with only crickets left for those who were not able to get one of the limited box sets.
Really think someone needs to go back to math. Another part of me thinks that GW has its a box set as "limited release" to get the hype up... then sales 70 percent of the product made holding back 30 percent to sell on ebay through a fake vendor but is truly them after they intentionally inflated the price. Maybe it is GW doing the scalping or atleast someone who works for them as I don't see how all these "scalpers" seem to get so many units of a limited edition product unless they are a vendor or have connections with GW. Sounds about as shady as it probably is.
Some of you really have absolutely no idea about the numbers we are dealing with here. 10000? You must be joking. That Catachan special edition colonel that is harder to find than a virgin in a whorehouse? They had if I remember correctly reportedly 5k units made. You think that there are only double indomitus boxes around?
Scalpers only exist because we feed them... if you don’t buy the product they have to absorb the losses. Hell if the hobby community holds out long enough (never going to happen) you can make them absorb the shipping and. Handling costs as well and maybe even force them to sell at a discount. Don’t feed the scalpers. Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.
angel of death 007 wrote: Not every store that sells GW products got 45 copies. Maybe some of the larger actual GW stores did. Our LGS was allotted 8 copies. A major online vendor I deal with was allotted 45. No one could do preorders until today though several could make lists for clients and VIPS.
My local FLGS got 45 copies. He's outside of the main metropolitan area in what 20 years ago would have been a rural community (now it's big subdivisions and warehouses). He's only been in business for about three years and does no online sales.
That strikes me as a scam. That is Australian Dollars, right? Indomitus is $290 in Australia. Either that person is on razor margins, or it's a scam. $145.55 is only £80 too.
Like I said if the hobby community could just organize itself and boycott scalpers. It would only take several releases to pull it off... It’s a very big if... they woulda done it by now if it was feasible but the possibility is always there.
That strikes me as a scam. That is Australian Dollars, right? Indomitus is $290 in Australia. Either that person is on razor margins, or it's a scam. $145.55 is only £80 too.
yukishiro1 wrote: The whole point of advertising is to make sure people don't make informed purchasing decisions and instead are manipulated into making decisions more favorable to the seller. Companies spend about $500 billion a year on advertising, and at least half of that spend is aimed not at simply making the consumer aware the product exists, but on manipulating them into buying a product they are already aware of yet would not otherwise buy.
The point of view that says "if you don't have the willpower to resist that $250 billion of carefully engineered emotional manipulation you're just a failure as a human being" has always struck me as extremely curious. Humans vary a bit from person to person, but we have very well-defined limits overall that can be measured and averaged. Just as we can calculate the amount of force required to overcome the bone resistance of the average human arm, we can also calculate the amount of manipulation required to overcome or at least to seriously undermine the average person's logical facilities.
Nobody would say the failure is on you if your bones break because you should have had stronger bones and bigger muscles to shield those bones, yet many people will happily tell people who have been manipulated that it's their own fault for not having stronger willpower or more resist logical reasoning facilities. It's fascinatingly ironic, because it represents just the sort of logical failure that these very same people are attributing to others.
Hurray for no personal responsibility! The corporation made me do it!
Advertising exists to spread knowledge of a product so people know they can buy it.
If I set up a factory making widgets how do you figure I'll get customers to buy them?
$160 for those models and book is a stupid good deal - even by their standards. GW left a gakload of money on the table. So I guess you can be pissed for them not charging $300 instead.
angel of death 007 wrote: So legitimately how many units do you think GW made of this "limited edition release"?
I think it would shock me if it was actually over 10,000 units world wide. I don't understand the advertising something for a month to make it available in a limited format with only crickets left for those who were not able to get one of the limited box sets.
Really think someone needs to go back to math. Another part of me thinks that GW has its a box set as "limited release" to get the hype up... then sales 70 percent of the product made holding back 30 percent to sell on ebay through a fake vendor but is truly them after they intentionally inflated the price. Maybe it is GW doing the scalping or atleast someone who works for them as I don't see how all these "scalpers" seem to get so many units of a limited edition product unless they are a vendor or have connections with GW. Sounds about as shady as it probably is.
Some of you really have absolutely no idea about the numbers we are dealing with here. 10000? You must be joking. That Catachan special edition colonel that is harder to find than a virgin in a whorehouse? They had if I remember correctly reportedly 5k units made. You think that there are only double indomitus boxes around?
His estimates are absurd to the point that it's almost comedic. He just has no idea with the type of scale we are dealing with here, and it shows.
Ghaz wrote: It looks like he's charging $90 for shipping.
I have no idea what UK-Australia freight costs I suppose. It's possible that it isn't a scam, if they got it at a bulk discount and are shifting it. My scam detector would be all over that though, thinking it was stolen or something. No way would I touch that.
there was a vendor in Ebay who sold 48 Units for $349 each. Wonder how he got 48 units. Think GW didn't send them to them? think they have no affiliation or connection to GW.
Look at the facts. GW advertised the "Limited Edition" release for a month.
GW made limited amount of units.
GW unintentionally.... or maybe intentionally created a demand.
And so called "scalpers" made record profits..... yet GW makes record profits without ever disclosing details. Think that there is an connection between GW or someone at GW and "scalpers"... hmmmn.
It is the old only let so many people into a club so the line gets long outside the door and increase cover charge by the hour effect. Shady businesses stay in business and make record profits because they master shady techniques.
macluvin wrote: By that logic we should be pissed at smokers rather than the tobacco industry...
Also severly missed the fact that the gaming and entertainment industries hire psychologists quite heavily.
What consumer industry doesn't? I remember learning about the psychology of food shopping, and how people can perceive value differently depending on how high a shelf the product is. People make millions consulting on this stuff.
macluvin wrote: By that logic we should be pissed at smokers rather than the tobacco industry...
Also severly missed the fact that the gaming and entertainment industries hire psychologists quite heavily.
What consumer industry doesn't? I remember learning about the psychology of food shopping, and how people can perceive value differently depending on how high a shelf the product is. People make millions consulting on this stuff.
Aye , doesn't Change the fact that it is questionable and some excesses.might need reigning in, Heck Look at the Video gaming industry and the slap they will get for lootboxes.
macluvin wrote: By that logic we should be pissed at smokers rather than the tobacco industry...
Ok I know we use the "plastic crack" analogy a lot but GW miniatures aren't literally addictive like nicotine is. Also, no one is claiming the companies are completely blameless here. Just the idea that a consumer being blameless for making bad purchases is absurd. They still chose to buy those things, GW is not holding a gun to people's heads. We are also ignoring what is a huge blob of people who bought Indomitus sooner but would have bought it anyways. How many of those waiting to pre-order the minute it launched would actually never have bought Indomitus were it not limited release? I doubt that number is very high; I feel the vast majority of those people would have pre-ordered later in the day/week or snagged one once it actually hit stores.
That strikes me as a scam. That is Australian Dollars, right? Indomitus is $290 in Australia. Either that person is on razor margins, or it's a scam. $145.55 is only £80 too.
That’s only for the space marine half of the set. He is also selling the Necrons for the same price and the rules (uncertain of price) in separate listings.
macluvin wrote: . Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.
Well, no. Pretty much all of this is wrong, though some only on a technicality.
It isn't a starter box... because GW isn't calling it that. [And traditionally, starter boxes have dice, measuring sticks and relatively complete rules for the models, and these openly reference the relevant codexes instead]
It explicitly won't last the length of 9th edition. This is, with one exception, a deliberate choice by GW.
Same with printing more- the one exception is, of course, the rulebook (and the campaign pamphlet). Models they do themselves, books they largely don't. Its a limited edition book with a slightly different cover (the front lacks words and logos). Their publisher might not be willing to do another small print run at a cost GW will accept, in which case it is actually limited.
But the product description claims the rulebook sans cover words in Indomitus exclusive and the Edge of Silence campaign pamphlet is also exclusive. So we won't see those again. Though the difference between the Indomitus rulebook and the normal rulebook is very little.
----
So with that in mind, its really easy to imagine that an official 9th edition Starter Set [that is not called Indomitus] could happen which has most of the same models [delete a couple characters on both sides], a softback mini rulebook, a slightly larger campaign book with full datacards for the units [this will be after the SM and Necron 9th edition books, so they don't have to worry about lacking or contradicting new rules], some measuring devices and some dice. Tadah, limited edition Indomitus is still limited edition, keeps all its exclusives and... is largely replicated at roughly the same price point while providing a bit less.
And then that's the starter set until they replace it with a new one.
I fully expect that Indomitus will have another print run or two, and stock redistribution. But I expect an official 'starter' set with most of the same models to happen after the Necron and SM updates. But not before, as that could undercut sales.
Basically roughly the same time frame from the Sisters Battlebox to their Codex release (barring any more economic disruptions)
Aeneades wrote: That’s only for the space marine half of the set. He is also selling the Necrons for the same price and the rules (uncertain of price) in separate listings.
Ah, I see. Yeah that would be a tidy profit. I get the feeling it is either stolen or, more likely, someone abusing their trade account. I think GW has specific rules against things like splitting sets and insane prices. Of course, someone getting 50 sets through normal means isn't impossible.
angel of death 007 wrote: there was a vendor in Ebay who sold 48 Units for $349 each. Wonder how he got 48 units. Think GW didn't send them to them? think they have no affiliation or connection to GW.
Look at the facts. GW advertised the "Limited Edition" release for a month.
GW made limited amount of units.
GW unintentionally.... or maybe intentionally created a demand.
And so called "scalpers" made record profits..... yet GW makes record profits without ever disclosing details. Think that there is an connection between GW or someone at GW and "scalpers"... hmmmn.
It is the old only let so many people into a club so the line gets long outside the door and increase cover charge by the hour effect. Shady businesses stay in business and make record profits because they master shady techniques.
Take the tinfoil hat off, it's cutting the circulation off to your brain.
Ya i guess a tin foil hat is better then the fan boy pants it seems like most of you wear. But I mean hard to blame a crack head for being addicted to crack as they don't see the crack or crack dealer as the problem it is the cops, family and rehab that keep them from their crack that are the "villians" in their minds.
Pointing fingers at the wrong person mate. All I'm saying is GW isn't scalping their own product and that was a crazy claim to make.
angel of death 007 wrote: there was a vendor in Ebay who sold 48 Units for $349 each. Wonder how he got 48 units. Think GW didn't send them to them? think they have no affiliation or connection to GW.
Look at the facts. GW advertised the "Limited Edition" release for a month.
GW made limited amount of units.
GW unintentionally.... or maybe intentionally created a demand.
And so called "scalpers" made record profits..... yet GW makes record profits without ever disclosing details. Think that there is an connection between GW or someone at GW and "scalpers"... hmmmn.
It is the old only let so many people into a club so the line gets long outside the door and increase cover charge by the hour effect. Shady businesses stay in business and make record profits because they master shady techniques.
In addition to the stores that have accounts with GW, there's also the distributors such as Alliance and ACD who carry GW product and sell it to retailers who don't have or can't afford to have an account directly with GW. They will probably be allocated a fair number of copies more than an individual store would receive.
I mean, I highly doubt this will be the end of the set. I expect quite a few more printings since my understanding was that it was expected for limited time rather than limited stock.
Might be an additional month but I thoroughly expect more to return, no one is gonna look at demand and say “we need to stop producing this now” unless their intent was to only produce as many as they had.
Leth wrote: I mean, I highly doubt this will be the end of the set. I expect quite a few more printings since my understanding was that it was expected for limited time rather than limited stock.
That’s not long at all! Indomitus is the flagship of the new edition, and what an amazing way to celebrate. If you want a reminder of just how very full of Warhammer 40,000 goodness this box is, take a look back at our unboxing article. Copies are available while stocks last, so be sure to secure yours early – they won’t be around forever.
I stand corrected, glad I camped the website lol. Made sure everything on my account was up to date the day before as well. Seconds after i submitted the website went down.
macluvin wrote: By that logic we should be pissed at smokers rather than the tobacco industry...
Also severly missed the fact that the gaming and entertainment industries hire psychologists quite heavily.
What consumer industry doesn't? I remember learning about the psychology of food shopping, and how people can perceive value differently depending on how high a shelf the product is. People make millions consulting on this stuff.
And it's not all bad.
But sometimes it is really fething bad. Like, get kids to steal parents credit cards so they aren't bullied in school for not having cool skins bad. Or get certain hobbyists to think they are inherently superior to people who can't afford their hobby (which often just so happen to be minorities).
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?
Hey now, that kind of talk might mean that people have to take responsibility for the financial decisions that they are making.
No, no the grey plastic wall of shame must remain the fault of GW.
Wish they had produced more copies, but I recognize that situational variables would have a significant impact. I expect them to do a second run within the next month or so for at least the models.
Leth wrote: Hey now, that kind of talk might mean that people have to take responsibility for the financial decisions that they are making.
No, no the grey plastic wall of shame must remain the fault of GW.
Wish they had produced more copies, but I recognize that situational variables would have a significant impact. I expect them to do a second run within the next month or so for at least the models.
Considering that planning for this release would have been 6+ months ago, and the amount of lead time it takes just to get the boxes from China, especially during a pandemic when everything was shut down, I don't know if we could really have gotten too much better than this.
That said, it looks like there is an issue with some independent stockists taking advantage of this which is a damn shame because it only hurts the other stockists and makes the product even scarcer than a limited run product would have been from the start.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Agreed, it is a damn shame. I can understand people buying and then splitting things up but there is that then there is that.
Agreed. Splitting a box, or even selling the half you don't want is one thing, but the stuff I've been seeing screencaps of? There's not justification or excuse for it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Which is the funny thing about all of this--the contents will be released on their own eventually.
We don't know that. There are things from the previous three starter boxes that don't have individual releases yet (and yes, I'm counting the Cultists from the 6th (?) starter).
NinthMusketeer wrote: Agreed, it is a damn shame. I can understand people buying and then splitting things up but there is that then there is that.
Agreed. Splitting a box, or even selling the half you don't want is one thing, but the stuff I've been seeing screencaps of? There's not justification or excuse for it.
got curios and checked ebay........so now i know i can still get the set, all for the low low price of 800 bucks
NinthMusketeer wrote: Which is the funny thing about all of this--the contents will be released on their own eventually.
We don't know that. There are things from the previous three starter boxes that don't have individual releases yet (and yes, I'm counting the Cultists from the 6th (?) starter).
6th and 7th. Same box was used for both.
And we did get that box of 5 Cultists which is probably the only reason the unit is still in the game at this point.
The largest store in our area was limited to 45 after he ordered (and was confirmed for) 150 sets. Confirmed until GW changed their mind and instituted the cap.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Agreed, it is a damn shame. I can understand people buying and then splitting things up but there is that then there is that.
Agreed. Splitting a box, or even selling the half you don't want is one thing, but the stuff I've been seeing screencaps of? There's not justification or excuse for it.
got curios and checked ebay........so now i know i can still get the set, all for the low low price of 800 bucks
angel of death 007 wrote: So legitimately how many units do you think GW made of this "limited edition release"?
I think it would shock me if it was actually over 10,000 units world wide. I don't understand the advertising something for a month to make it available in a limited format with only crickets left for those who were not able to get one of the limited box sets.
Really think someone needs to go back to math. Another part of me thinks that GW has its a box set as "limited release" to get the hype up... then sales 70 percent of the product made holding back 30 percent to sell on ebay through a fake vendor but is truly them after they intentionally inflated the price. Maybe it is GW doing the scalping or atleast someone who works for them as I don't see how all these "scalpers" seem to get so many units of a limited edition product unless they are a vendor or have connections with GW. Sounds about as shady as it probably is.
It is over 10k by a large magnitude, that number isn't even in the ballpark.
To sell out on their webpage in UK in 10 minutes and then in the USA in 10 minutes.... it sure as hell isn't 100k... I think 10k is a good estimate as they have probably promised many to real vendors and some to fake vendors. I doubt GW website did anywhere near 10k units in USA or UK in 10 minutes. I would say ask GW but even though they are a stock based company they are very shady about what they do.
I have to agree with the others saying that 10K is an extremely lowball estimate. Just some rough numbeers, I use maybe 6-8 online retailers (UK), and I'm aware of maybe twice this number. Many of them have sold 500 boxes on release day (some for July, some for August), even those that I've always thought of as smaller. So let's say that, accounting for the retailers that I don't know, there are 30 in the UK (One of GW's largest markets but still not large relative to the world market), each of which were allocated and sold an average 300, That's 9K sets right there, without accounting for GW proper (by far the largest seller I would expect). Then stretch the numbers to Europe, US, and RoW, I have to think that 100K produced is a lot more realistic than 10K.
macluvin wrote: Scalpers only exist because we feed them... if you don’t buy the product they have to absorb the losses. Hell if the hobby community holds out long enough (never going to happen) you can make them absorb the shipping and. Handling costs as well and maybe even force them to sell at a discount. Don’t feed the scalpers. Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.
Yeah, it looked like the captain, lieutenant, intercesors, warriors, overlord and royal warden were all the standard kits. Bikes and destroyers may also be normal kits. There were no troops on what is clearly the starter set sprues. There is also still the possibly that the starter will have things not in this box, just to get people to buy that too.
Most of the stories coming out of shops about having their pre-order requisitions dropped by GW are actually a false narrative.
A lot, and I mean thousands, of shops put pre-order requests in on the usual GW shop credit system that well exceeded their credit position. Unfortunately, many of these shops had already communicated to their customers the number they had requested.
Subsequently, their requisitions got cut back to within their credit position and due to the crisis these shops lacked cash flow to make up the difference in cash.
But that’s an uncomfortable situation to communicate to customers. It isn’t false to say that GW cut back on their requisition (which isn’t the same as an order, FYI); and the reason is conveniently left unsaid.
The GW shop credit system is a treadmill that many shops never escape—but which does allow new or struggling shops to quickly get up to speed selling product to customers. It could have its own thread of debate, but that probably doesn’t belong here.
Leth wrote: I stand corrected, glad I camped the website lol. Made sure everything on my account was up to date the day before as well. Seconds after i submitted the website went down.
No, you still could be correct by my reading. Stocks will last as long as stock is produced. "OOS" doesn't necessarily mean "OOS foverver", in fact I'd argue it usually means "OOS until we have more S", so a limited time rather than a limited number is what I personally expect (and hope for).
Apart from being on a limited run and missing a floppy ruler and some dice(not even an issue), and having Necrons instead of Death Guard, I don't how this set is different from Dark Imperium.
Full rule book, two armies and the rules to play whats included in the box. There you go, its a starter set.
macluvin wrote: Scalpers only exist because we feed them... if you don’t buy the product they have to absorb the losses. Hell if the hobby community holds out long enough (never going to happen) you can make them absorb the shipping and. Handling costs as well and maybe even force them to sell at a discount. Don’t feed the scalpers. Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.
It...is...not...a...starter...set...
Honestly I think this is the reason why this whole debacle got so big. People keep treating this as though it's the starter set, when GW seems to view it more like the Sisters of Battle Army Box.
Just the fact that some 3rd party stores were surprised not to receive 300+ units shows that there was a major disconnect between perception and reality.
And clearly GW also didn't predict this level of demand since they kept amending their own communication to clarify how limited this would be from "We made enough for everyone" to "no more than 3 per person!!!"
Actually, even worse that that, it's the Sisters of Battle Army Box but for the most played faction in the game, full of all new models, and an entire second faction, with a new edition's rulebook, all for nearly a 50% discount over individual MSRP.
Whether or not you agree with GW's choice of making this a limited collector's item, in hindsight this was shaping up to be gakstorm from the very start.
tneva82 wrote: It is not. Starter set comes later. Starter sets have all you need to play. This does not. Starter sets aren't limited in stock. This is.
Starter set is what comes later. Why arque against gw? You lose. Automatically.
Did they officially say somewhere that a starter is coming later?
macluvin wrote: Scalpers only exist because we feed them... if you don’t buy the product they have to absorb the losses. Hell if the hobby community holds out long enough (never going to happen) you can make them absorb the shipping and. Handling costs as well and maybe even force them to sell at a discount. Don’t feed the scalpers. Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.
It...is...not...a...starter...set...
Honestly I think this is the reason why this whole debacle got so big. People keep treating this as though it's the starter set, when GW seems to view it more like the Sisters of Battle Army Box.
Just the fact that some 3rd party stores were surprised not to receive 300+ units shows that there was a major disconnect between perception and reality.
And clearly GW also didn't predict this level of demand since they kept amending their own communication to clarify how limited this would be from "We made enough for everyone" to "no more than 3 per person!!!"
Actually, even worse that that, it's the Sisters of Battle Army Box but for the most played faction in the game, full of all new models, and an entire second faction, with a new edition's rulebook, all for nearly a 50% discount over individual MSRP.
Whether or not you agree with GW's choice of making this a limited collector's item, in hindsight this was shaping up to be gakstorm from the very start.
was it ever announced to be such a 'limeted collectors item'? i never got that impression. a recommended max of 3 per person suggests that it isnt.
People can think what they want about this BS.
btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...
btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...
Wait there are laws that mandate a minimum amount of items manufactured in Germany? Literally unbelievable.
macluvin wrote: Scalpers only exist because we feed them... if you don’t buy the product they have to absorb the losses. Hell if the hobby community holds out long enough (never going to happen) you can make them absorb the shipping and. Handling costs as well and maybe even force them to sell at a discount. Don’t feed the scalpers. Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.
It...is...not...a...starter...set...
Honestly I think this is the reason why this whole debacle got so big. People keep treating this as though it's the starter set, when GW seems to view it more like the Sisters of Battle Army Box.
Just the fact that some 3rd party stores were surprised not to receive 300+ units shows that there was a major disconnect between perception and reality.
And clearly GW also didn't predict this level of demand since they kept amending their own communication to clarify how limited this would be from "We made enough for everyone" to "no more than 3 per person!!!"
Actually, even worse that that, it's the Sisters of Battle Army Box but for the most played faction in the game, full of all new models, and an entire second faction, with a new edition's rulebook, all for nearly a 50% discount over individual MSRP.
Whether or not you agree with GW's choice of making this a limited collector's item, in hindsight this was shaping up to be gakstorm from the very start.
was it ever announced to be such a 'limeted collectors item'? i never got that impression. a recommended max of 3 per person suggests that it isnt.
People can think what they want about this BS.
btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...
Not necessarily a collecter's item, but they've definitely said from the start that it was limited and not just a regular starter box.
btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...
Wait there are laws that mandate a minimum amount of items manufactured in Germany? Literally unbelievable.
Indeed, as it's not remotely true.
There are some laws around advertising and accuracy, but that's it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Ok I know we use the "plastic crack" analogy a lot but GW miniatures aren't literally addictive like nicotine is. Also, no one is claiming the companies are completely blameless here. Just the idea that a consumer being blameless for making bad purchases is absurd. They still chose to buy those things, GW is not holding a gun to people's heads.
GW are selling luxury goods at a high profit margin. Good luck to them.
I think I'll reserve my anger for companies using dodgy practices to overcharge for life-saving medicines.
ImAGeek wrote:
Did they officially say somewhere that a starter is coming later?
no, but as this box was advertised as limited edition special launch box, it was taken as a fact that a "real" 2-player starter set must come later as it would be the first GW game without one
RedNoak wrote:
was it ever announced to be such a 'limeted collectors item'? i never got that impression. a recommended max of 3 per person suggests that it isnt.
Yes, the announced it at the very beginning that this will be limited edition box for collectors/veteran players
the 3 per person stuff and similar came only last week were people got the impression that it was not limited edition at all, while the initial articel talked about "enough for everyone" but also said " it’s a special launch box to celebrate the new edition, it won’t be around forever"
That's not how German laws work, and it's not the first time something sells out insanely fast because the offer is just too good. Apparently GW has promised to provide most stores with 30 or more boxes, which is plenty to not get into any trouble with the German law.
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues. The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math: Rulebook- $65 by itself. Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36) Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher. Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline. So $190 for both of those. We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?
The Box IS a good deal and that's why it's limited edition : they don't want to sell too much of that box because they don't get amazing return with it. The scalpers are not some kind of external plague that we must fight with abstinence and willpower or something, it's the result of GW's business practice, it's inherent to their way of doing things.
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?
Do you not know how marketing works?
Again, you have it reversed. The price of the individual kits are so high so that you are driven to buy the bundle, which often comes with some extra stuff you do not need. It's basic psychology to manipulate people's ability to compare similar things. You produce limited product for a "discount" (Note that it is all relative and GW is not loosing a cent on the "sale" they are offering here. They're actually making quite a lot) to further incentive people buying all of it immediately with no thought or consideration.
I mean come on, are you just not thinking through what people are writing here?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: It is not. Starter set comes later. Starter sets have all you need to play. This does not. Starter sets aren't limited in stock. This is.
Starter set is what comes later. Why arque against gw? You lose. Automatically.
But it is the starting set for 9th.
Like, literally, it is the set they made for the start of 9th.
Pardon people's confusions here, because GW's not been particularly clear.
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?
The Box IS a good deal and that's why it's limited edition : they don't want to sell too much of that box because they don't get amazing return with it.
The scalpers are not some kind of external plague that we must fight with abstinence and willpower or something, it's the result of GW's business practice, it's inherent to their way of doing things.
I would bet you a hundred bucks they get a fantastic return
Pardon people's confusions here, because GW's not been particularly clear.
GW was very clear about that one, "limited edition launch set for veteran players" and nothing else
now we can talk about how stupid it is to start e new edition without a starter set but just a limited box set aimed for veteran players but it also makes clear what this edition is all about
8th was there to get new players in, 9th is there to keep those people playing and is not caring about new players any more
btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...
Wait there are laws that mandate a minimum amount of items manufactured in Germany? Literally unbelievable.
Indeed, as it's not remotely true.
There are some laws around advertising and accuracy, but that's it.
If that law existed Ferrari would be an illegal brand in Germany. Same with other luxury things that are sold before production even begins.
Honestly I would not be shocked if there is NO STARTER for 9th edition.
Consider that starter sets are a nice deal and discount, but for an actual beginner they are not actually the best thing to get. First up you are limited to only two armies to pick from, which either shoe horns you into factions you don't "really" want or means that you don't get it. From an overall sales perspective its also bad because it means your customers from one generational block are encouraged to focus on two armies over all the others - repeat this over a efw years and you get the heavily dominant marine aspect that we have today.
Secondly it has TWO armies and most people only need one when starting out. So now you've got to find a friend who wants the other half. That might be fine if you and a mate join up at the same time and both want one of the two armies. IT's not that good if you both want the same army, or if you don't have a friend or know anyone who wants to split (remember you're new so you likely don't know about splitting on ebay or at the local club as easily).
I can well see gw perhaps moving toward instead of pushing a starter set, instead pushing Getting Started sets for each faction on newbies. Now they might make a getting started modelling pack with glue, clippers, scraper, brush etc... all in a pack as well. However its much better to push getting started sets on people.
Now people have a choice from any army in the game; the cost is less than the duel starter set (heck typically you could get two getting started sets for the same price as one starter pack); you don't have to worry about finding someone to swap/trade/sell with or being left with models you don't want.
Honestly it makes a lot of sense for GW to go that direction. It's far easier to market to new customers and it also helps spread out the starting army focus. Instead of one or two armies getting a heavy focus, you spread out sales more so over a wider range. This is better for GW as it means that the ydon't have to plough as much marketing money into slower selling armies because in theory they should start to pick up more sales. I think GW of today is far more keen to avoid "abandoned" armies in their range.
Very much doubt there won't be a starter set for 9th. I'm really curious if they're moving away from the big starter set as the main push though and more toward the smaller ones like they had from 8th like Know No Fear.
From all my times hanging out in stores painting they seemed like one of the biggest sellers for new folk, particularly younger ones with their parents. Come in, do a painting tutorial with a Primaris Marine then play an intro game with the store models. After that pick up one of the small starters and some paint/ brushes.
Don't think I ever saw someone brand new buy Dark Imperium, maybe GW are trying something new and saving the big £100+ slot for something more akin to the Titanicus Grand Master box. Remember how limited that "while stocks last" box was on release? It came back later on with (I think) the same contents at the same price.
Not sure exactly how the Indom sprues would split down for a smaller set but minimum unit sizes would't be an issue as they aren't in K.N.F. ether.
Don't think I ever saw someone brand new buy Dark Imperium, maybe GW are trying something new and saving the big £100+ slot for something more akin to the Titanicus Grand Master box. Remember how limited that "while stocks last" box was on release? It came back later on with (I think) the same contents at the same price.
From what I recall (could be wrong), AT was a "Limited stock" product, and they simply made more stock, thus relaxing the limit. Hopefully the same with this.
There will absolutely be a new Starter Set, they're just spreading the releases out a bit so they don't lose a chunk of initial sales to, "Umm, gee whizz, I sure did spend a lot this month and the Starter will be around three years so I'll wait."
So they wait two weeks to a month before revealing it and in that time the above thought has faded for enough room to, "OMG OMG OMG MORE GGGLLORRRIIOOUUSS PRIMARIS MODELS, I MUST PRE-ORDER THREE RIGHT NOW, HAHA DON'T TELL THE WIFE HAHA."
Arbitrator wrote: There will absolutely be a new Starter Set, they're just spreading the releases out a bit so they don't lose a chunk of initial sales to, "Umm, gee whizz, I sure did spend a lot this month and the Starter will be around three years so I'll wait."
See this sort of tells me why GW might move away from starter sets toward launch sets.
You're an experienced current GW customer. In theory you are NOT supposed to be the target audience for a starter set for the game. However over the years GW has put more and more models into the sets and made the deal greater and greater to the point where its such a good deal that they are cleaning up a lot of sales, not from new gamer,s but from current ones.
I think this idea of a launch set is exactly pandering to that specific market; the deal market. They aren't after a starter they just want lots of models at a lower price.
Meanwhile why keep going with that model? The big discount isn't necessarily drawing in new customers, its just feeding existing ones who are already part of the system and would likely buy all those models, given time, at full retail price. So why not do shorter term discount boxes to keep them mostly happy, but then focus actual beginners and new gamers into the Getting Started sets. GW already renamed them from Battalions of old into the Getting Started sets. They shifted content to make most (all?) playable as a basic force out of the box.
Sure established gamers get them too, but the focus is now on the entire range not just on two specific armies.
I'd wager we might see no starter for 9th instead we might see a new pair of Getting Started sets for Necron and Primaris/marines and then a bundle box with big rulebook, dice, rulers etc... The Newbie now pays as much for an old starter set as they do for their own custom starting point. Giving them the generic rules/dice/rulers etc.. pack alongside a Getting Started set of their choice.
Arbitrator wrote: There will absolutely be a new Starter Set, they're just spreading the releases out a bit so they don't lose a chunk of initial sales to, "Umm, gee whizz, I sure did spend a lot this month and the Starter will be around three years so I'll wait."
See this sort of tells me why GW might move away from starter sets toward launch sets.
You're an experienced current GW customer. In theory you are NOT supposed to be the target audience for a starter set for the game. However over the years GW has put more and more models into the sets and made the deal greater and greater to the point where its such a good deal that they are cleaning up a lot of sales, not from new gamer,s but from current ones.
I think this idea of a launch set is exactly pandering to that specific market; the deal market. They aren't after a starter they just want lots of models at a lower price.
Meanwhile why keep going with that model? The big discount isn't necessarily drawing in new customers, its just feeding existing ones who are already part of the system and would likely buy all those models, given time, at full retail price. So why not do shorter term discount boxes to keep them mostly happy, but then focus actual beginners and new gamers into the Getting Started sets. GW already renamed them from Battalions of old into the Getting Started sets. They shifted content to make most (all?) playable as a basic force out of the box.
Sure established gamers get them too, but the focus is now on the entire range not just on two specific armies.
I'd wager we might see no starter for 9th instead we might see a new pair of Getting Started sets for Necron and Primaris/marines and then a bundle box with big rulebook, dice, rulers etc... The Newbie now pays as much for an old starter set as they do for their own custom starting point. Giving them the generic rules/dice/rulers etc.. pack alongside a Getting Started set of their choice.
I'm thinking along these lines too. I doubt we'll see a "starter set" similar to Dark Imperium, I do expect to see equivalents of No Know Fear and and First Strike released (SM vs necrons), or at least the same boxes (SM vs DG) repackaged for 9th - removing 8th ed core rules and including the 9th core rules instead. Not including core rules at all is possible though as they are free to download.
I'm thinking along these lines too. I doubt we'll see a "starter set" similar to Dark Imperium, I do expect to see equivalents of No Know Fear and and First Strike released (SM vs necrons), or at least the same boxes (SM vs DG) repackaged for 9th - removing 8th ed core rules and including the 9th core rules instead. Not including core rules at all is possible though as they are free to download.
I can't see GW not wanting to push the Big Rulebook on new gamers.
Much like how GW won't ever drop codex/battletomes either.
One thing GW realised early and has got right for years is that rules are only part of the experience and that many get really attached to the lore of the game and their faction(s). At the same time they know that lore as an optional component will only touch a very small minority of the gamer market. So you bundle rules with the lore.
The artwork, stories, background are all part of the complete package that GW sells to new gamers and to established ones. They know that many won't hunt down black library novels and the like to read; so they make sure its in the core components of the game to get started with. It's a huge hook that keeps many around, even some of the die hard "I hate the rules" people still hang around because they love their army lore and still enjoy the game/storytelling/battling side of things even if they hate the rules.
If anything having the core book as a loss leader is a good thing for GW; its worth bundling it up and selling it at a loss or at cost inside bundles of other stuff because they know its part of what helps turn people into loyal long term customers.
AduroT wrote: As long as were arguing about if it is or is not a starter set, just remember, it’s not 9th edition, it’s New 40k.
That's nothing new. GW stopped 'officially' numbering editions a few years back- 7th and 8th were never referred to by GW that way either. The former being all Forge the Narrative and gak instead.
On the other hand, while they don't call this 9th, for the most part, it is called the New Edition repeatedly. And Best, as well.
There also is the hilarious issue with foreign companies trying to dodge naming any international product "Nine" because it sounds the same as the German "No"
Arbitrator wrote: There will absolutely be a new Starter Set, they're just spreading the releases out a bit so they don't lose a chunk of initial sales to, "Umm, gee whizz, I sure did spend a lot this month and the Starter will be around three years so I'll wait."
See this sort of tells me why GW might move away from starter sets toward launch sets.
You're an experienced current GW customer. In theory you are NOT supposed to be the target audience for a starter set for the game. However over the years GW has put more and more models into the sets and made the deal greater and greater to the point where its such a good deal that they are cleaning up a lot of sales, not from new gamer,s but from current ones.
I think this idea of a launch set is exactly pandering to that specific market; the deal market. They aren't after a starter they just want lots of models at a lower price.
Meanwhile why keep going with that model? The big discount isn't necessarily drawing in new customers, its just feeding existing ones who are already part of the system and would likely buy all those models, given time, at full retail price. So why not do shorter term discount boxes to keep them mostly happy, but then focus actual beginners and new gamers into the Getting Started sets. GW already renamed them from Battalions of old into the Getting Started sets. They shifted content to make most (all?) playable as a basic force out of the box.
Sure established gamers get them too, but the focus is now on the entire range not just on two specific armies.
I'd wager we might see no starter for 9th instead we might see a new pair of Getting Started sets for Necron and Primaris/marines and then a bundle box with big rulebook, dice, rulers etc... The Newbie now pays as much for an old starter set as they do for their own custom starting point. Giving them the generic rules/dice/rulers etc.. pack alongside a Getting Started set of their choice.
This post itself reveals the trick of psychology working
"Deals greater and greater"
Only relative to more and more expensive base product. They keep raising box prices, your brain goes "Wow the deals are so good" comparing them to the bundles. Which are also raising in price, somewhat slower.
I'm thinking along these lines too. I doubt we'll see a "starter set" similar to Dark Imperium, I do expect to see equivalents of No Know Fear and and First Strike released (SM vs necrons), or at least the same boxes (SM vs DG) repackaged for 9th - removing 8th ed core rules and including the 9th core rules instead. Not including core rules at all is possible though as they are free to download.
I can't see GW not wanting to push the Big Rulebook on new gamers.
Much like how GW won't ever drop codex/battletomes either.
One thing GW realised early and has got right for years is that rules are only part of the experience and that many get really attached to the lore of the game and their faction(s). At the same time they know that lore as an optional component will only touch a very small minority of the gamer market. So you bundle rules with the lore.
The artwork, stories, background are all part of the complete package that GW sells to new gamers and to established ones. They know that many won't hunt down black library novels and the like to read; so they make sure its in the core components of the game to get started with. It's a huge hook that keeps many around, even some of the die hard "I hate the rules" people still hang around because they love their army lore and still enjoy the game/storytelling/battling side of things even if they hate the rules.
If anything having the core book as a loss leader is a good thing for GW; its worth bundling it up and selling it at a loss or at cost inside bundles of other stuff because they know its part of what helps turn people into loyal long term customers.
Yeah, all those full colour pictures of beautifully painted models aren’t just in the core book just to look nice. They are there to tempt people into buying the models. As a newbie coming into the hobby the core book is like a gateway to a new world of lore, art, models etc. I’d say it’s one of their most important marketing tools. I agree with you that we might be seeing a push towards selling newbies start collecting sets, or one of the smaller starter sets like Know No Fear. Things like Dark Imperium and Dark Vengeance are quite big buy ins for someone looking to get into the hobby. A smaller set with a smaller price tag would be a great idea imo, I was really surprised that KNF and First Strike didn’t end up in some of the bigger toy shops like Smiths Toys R Us (before their Demise) etc. But that’s a whole different topic I guess.
If I were GW I’d bundle up a load of the start collecting boxes with new rule books, and sell them for maybe ten quid more than the current start collecting price. They’d be bought by newbies and established players alike.
This post itself reveals the trick of psychology working
"Deals greater and greater"
Only relative to more and more expensive base product. They keep raising box prices, your brain goes "Wow the deals are so good" comparing them to the bundles. Which are also raising in price, somewhat slower.
Not really go back and look at the content of some earlier starter sets.
Three troop boxes for Dark Eldar; two and a speeder for the Marines.
And sure the base prices have gone up, but the deal itself is still a solid deal based on CURRENT pricing. Sure if we compare to prices in the past it might not be as good a deal; but we can't buy 2020 models at 1990 prices anywhere. So its a moot point to compare backward in terms of talking about sale deals because there's no provision of new legal stock being sold at those old prices. It's an interesting point of academia, but nothing more.
This post itself reveals the trick of psychology working
"Deals greater and greater"
Only relative to more and more expensive base product. They keep raising box prices, your brain goes "Wow the deals are so good" comparing them to the bundles. Which are also raising in price, somewhat slower.
We're well aware of price anchoring.
Now find me $135 of models in that quantity and quality.
GW’s boxed sets have gone up in price, that’s true.
If memory serves, 2nd Ed was £40. It came with 20 Tactical Marines (three part models), and a quantity of monopose Ork Boyz, Grots. Oh and a single flat cardboard Ork Dreadnought.
24 or so years later, we see Indomitus. Not only significantly more models, but ones of objectively better quality, intricacy and variety.
Some do stick out as odd (Blood of the Phoenix in particular), but to simply observe prices have gone up, without any regard to a possible matching increase in quality and or value isn’t exactly an honest stance, is it?
How long did it take before the SOB second wave hit preorders? That may or may not be an indication of when to expect the second wave of Necron releases that were directly and indirectly teased, as well as multi-part sculpts for the Overlord, Skorpekh, Codex etc.
Equilibrium Games in CA seems to have taken several boxes and is selling them by sprue on eBay. If pre-order was yesterday how does this store have boxes to physically sell?
I'm expecting that some of the sprues like the warriors, intercessors, and bikes etb are designed so they can use those sprues in future bundles and getting started with less cannibalizing sales of the multipart versions.
BrotherGecko wrote: Equilibrium Games in CA seems to have taken several boxes and is selling them by sprue on eBay. If pre-order was yesterday how does this store have boxes to physically sell?
They don't. They're cannibalizing stock that they were getting for their store or that they purchased specifically for this purpose.
BrotherGecko wrote: Equilibrium Games in CA seems to have taken several boxes and is selling them by sprue on eBay. If pre-order was yesterday how does this store have boxes to physically sell?
They don't, its a presale of the split contents with sprue photos from the net most likely.
Far as I know GW hasn't yet sent out stock for the game and I don't think they generally do until the week of release. A two week pre order might mean they are shipping some in week one but they generally have no issue doing it all inside a single week typically.
This post itself reveals the trick of psychology working
"Deals greater and greater"
Only relative to more and more expensive base product. They keep raising box prices, your brain goes "Wow the deals are so good" comparing them to the bundles. Which are also raising in price, somewhat slower.
We're well aware of price anchoring.
Now find me $135 of models in that quantity and quality.
BrotherGecko wrote: Equilibrium Games in CA seems to have taken several boxes and is selling them by sprue on eBay. If pre-order was yesterday how does this store have boxes to physically sell?
They don't. They're cannibalizing stock that they were getting for their store or that they purchased specifically for this purpose.
If they are on the level then what they are asking looks reasonable for those looking for stuff.
This post itself reveals the trick of psychology working
"Deals greater and greater"
Only relative to more and more expensive base product. They keep raising box prices, your brain goes "Wow the deals are so good" comparing them to the bundles. Which are also raising in price, somewhat slower.
We're well aware of price anchoring.
Now find me $135 of models in that quantity and quality.
Indomitus isn't a 135 dollars though?
BRB is in box. He's saying that the BRB is 65$ of the boxes price, which isn't totally true, but neither is the 200$ number for smart buyers.
tneva82 wrote: It is not. Starter set comes later. Starter sets have all you need to play. This does not. Starter sets aren't limited in stock. This is.
Starter set is what comes later. Why arque against gw? You lose. Automatically.
What are you talking about? This set contains the full rule book, two armies and the rules to field them! Aside from the lack of a ruler and D6 dice - which anybody will highly likely have to hand and if not would barely cost £3 for both - there is nothing else players require for a full game of 40K.
Whether its limited or not, this box set is still a starter set because it functions as such.
Why argue against simple logic? You lose. Automatically.
Mixzremixzd wrote: How long did it take before the SOB second wave hit preorders? That may or may not be an indication of when to expect the second wave of Necron releases that were directly and indirectly teased, as well as multi-part sculpts for the Overlord, Skorpekh, Codex etc.
The Sisters box was late in November, the codex and first individual boxes mid January, and the remaining boxes in mid March.
It needs to be said that the Sisters release wasn't exactly typical and GW did experiment with different release plans for different armies in the last year. I wouldn't want to speculate on how likely it is that the start of 9th edition aligns with that particular release.
What are you talking about? This set contains the full rule book, two armies and the rules to field them! Aside from the lack of a ruler and D6 dice - which anybody will highly likely have to hand and if not would barely cost £3 for both - there is nothing else players require for a full game of 40K.
Incorrect. The rule booklet for the models Indomitus requires both the Necron and Marine codices to function. This isnt for a moment an unbox and play set.
If memory serves, 2nd Ed was £40. It came with 20 Tactical Marines (three part models), and a quantity of monopose Ork Boyz, Grots. Oh and a single flat cardboard Ork Dreadnought.
24 or so years later, we see Indomitus. Not only significantly more models, but ones of objectively better quality, intricacy and variety.
Some do stick out as odd (Blood of the Phoenix in particular), but to simply observe prices have gone up, without any regard to a possible matching increase in quality and or value isn’t exactly an honest stance, is it?
Point of order: Indomitus has 19 LESS models than 2nd Edition: 20 Tac Marines, 20 Goffs, 40 Gretchin for 80 models vs Indomitus' 61.
What are you talking about? This set contains the full rule book, two armies and the rules to field them! Aside from the lack of a ruler and D6 dice - which anybody will highly likely have to hand and if not would barely cost £3 for both - there is nothing else players require for a full game of 40K.
Whether its limited or not, this box set is still a starter set because it functions as such.
Why argue against simple logic? You lose. Automatically.
Battle Boxes are always a way for people to start, but this is the first time(for AoS or 40k) that it has included the full rulebook that I can think of. GW doesn't consider Battle Boxes to be starter products though.
What are you talking about? This set contains the full rule book, two armies and the rules to field them! Aside from the lack of a ruler and D6 dice - which anybody will highly likely have to hand and if not would barely cost £3 for both - there is nothing else players require for a full game of 40K.
Incorrect. The rule booklet for the models Indomitus requires both the Necron and Marine codices to function. This isnt for a moment an unbox and play set.
If memory serves, none of the 8th edition starter sets included neither the Marine and Death Guard codices. They were basically datasheets, so this doesn't seem to be any different.
If memory serves, 2nd Ed was £40. It came with 20 Tactical Marines (three part models), and a quantity of monopose Ork Boyz, Grots. Oh and a single flat cardboard Ork Dreadnought.
24 or so years later, we see Indomitus. Not only significantly more models, but ones of objectively better quality, intricacy and variety.
Some do stick out as odd (Blood of the Phoenix in particular), but to simply observe prices have gone up, without any regard to a possible matching increase in quality and or value isn’t exactly an honest stance, is it?
There's a point where quality does become subjective. Especially considering there are plenty of decade plus models still in the range.
But now I'm stuck trying to google the price of a battalion box in the early 2000s. And, wow, this is harder than I expected. Probably because battalions were a fantasy thing and 40k used different terminology.
But okay, lets see. Space wolves. 90 bucks would net you... 10 grey hunters, 10 blood claws, 3 bikes, and a rhino. Plus those old corner buildings. Savings over the individual kits? Much lower. Modern equivalent.... 10 tacs, a dread, 1 character. Pretty much half of the old box. Same price. I can tell you, in 15 years, inflation was not 100 percent (it's roughly 30 percent).
this is their deal bundles too. The individual kits are, as I am entirely sure you know, much, much worse.
And this is already based off a rather expensive hobby.
What are you talking about? This set contains the full rule book, two armies and the rules to field them! Aside from the lack of a ruler and D6 dice - which anybody will highly likely have to hand and if not would barely cost £3 for both - there is nothing else players require for a full game of 40K.
Incorrect. The rule booklet for the models Indomitus requires both the Necron and Marine codices to function. This isnt for a moment an unbox and play set.
"Edge of Silence" contains the rules for the units in the box.
1x 24-page campaign booklet – The Edge of Silence: This supplementary booklet is exclusive to the Indomitus set and tells you the story of what befell the vanguard forces of the Indomitus Crusade’s Battle Group Kallides when they ventured into the ominous, seemingly abandoned region known as Pariah Nexus. The booklet also includes 18 datasheets that feature all of the rules that enable you to field the stunning miniatures in the box in a game of Warhammer 40,000.
This is what they did for Chaos Marines and Vanguard Primaris with Shadowspear.
This post itself reveals the trick of psychology working
"Deals greater and greater"
Only relative to more and more expensive base product. They keep raising box prices, your brain goes "Wow the deals are so good" comparing them to the bundles. Which are also raising in price, somewhat slower.
We're well aware of price anchoring.
Now find me $135 of models in that quantity and quality.
Indomitus isn't a 135 dollars though?
BRB is in box. He's saying that the BRB is 65$ of the boxes price, which isn't totally true, but neither is the 200$ number for smart buyers.
I mean, rulebooks are one of the number one most grossly overpriced products for their actual value GW produces.
Point of order. Point taken. Point of fact. Pointing things out. Match point. Pointing fingers. The point of it all. What's the point? Points of authority.
There's a lot of points out there, which is why I'm so irritated WE DON'T HAVE ANY YET!
Battle Boxes are always a way for people to start, but this is the first time(for AoS or 40k) that it has included the full rulebook that I can think of. GW doesn't consider Battle Boxes to be starter products though.
What are you talking about? This set contains the full rule book, two armies and the rules to field them! Aside from the lack of a ruler and D6 dice - which anybody will highly likely have to hand and if not would barely cost £3 for both - there is nothing else players require for a full game of 40K.
Incorrect. The rule booklet for the models Indomitus requires both the Necron and Marine codices to function. This isnt for a moment an unbox and play set.
"Edge of Silence" contains the rules for the units in the box.
1x 24-page campaign booklet – The Edge of Silence: This supplementary booklet is exclusive to the Indomitus set and tells you the story of what befell the vanguard forces of the Indomitus Crusade’s Battle Group Kallides when they ventured into the ominous, seemingly abandoned region known as Pariah Nexus. The booklet also includes 18 datasheets that feature all of the rules that enable you to field the stunning miniatures in the box in a game of Warhammer 40,000.
This is what they did for Chaos Marines and Vanguard Primaris with Shadowspear.
Except we've seen the data sheets from the box. They say 'see codex necrons' and 'see codex space marines' for some rules (like reanimation protocols). They aren't playable out of the box.
ERJAK wrote: Point of order. Point taken. Point of fact. Pointing things out. Match point. Pointing fingers. The point of it all. What's the point? Points of authority.
There's a lot of points out there, which is why I'm so irritated WE DON'T HAVE ANY YET!
gorram monday NDA lift...
Seconded. I propose a motion to fund a leaker. All those in favor?
Except we've seen the data sheets from the box. They say 'see codex necrons' and 'see codex space marines' for some rules (like reanimation protocols). They aren't playable out of the box.
Indeed. This isnt Shadowspear. It explicitly requires additional rules material to function.
ERJAK wrote: Point of order. Point taken. Point of fact. Pointing things out. Match point. Pointing fingers. The point of it all. What's the point? Points of authority.
There's a lot of points out there, which is why I'm so irritated WE DON'T HAVE ANY YET!
gorram monday NDA lift...
Seconded. I propose a motion to fund a leaker. All those in favor?
ERJAK wrote: Point of order. Point taken. Point of fact. Pointing things out. Match point. Pointing fingers. The point of it all. What's the point? Points of authority.
There's a lot of points out there, which is why I'm so irritated WE DON'T HAVE ANY YET!
gorram monday NDA lift...
So your point is about points?
Agreed. I want to start making lists now. And I need to see if csm are getting shafted again or not.
And my fellblade, please please please, I need to know if they finally fixed its points. It needs to be able to soak its treads in the blood of loyalist dogs again.
Except we've seen the data sheets from the box. They say 'see codex necrons' and 'see codex space marines' for some rules (like reanimation protocols). They aren't playable out of the box.
Thats a good point, but once again, the starter sets only include the datasheets. That said, I'm not sure how much rules they included in the Dark Imperium set so...
This post itself reveals the trick of psychology working
"Deals greater and greater"
Only relative to more and more expensive base product. They keep raising box prices, your brain goes "Wow the deals are so good" comparing them to the bundles. Which are also raising in price, somewhat slower.
We're well aware of price anchoring.
Now find me $135 of models in that quantity and quality.
Indomitus isn't a 135 dollars though?
BRB is in box. He's saying that the BRB is 65$ of the boxes price, which isn't totally true, but neither is the 200$ number for smart buyers.
I mean, rulebooks are one of the number one most grossly overpriced products for their actual value GW produces.
Not as much as you think
First, the profit margin on books is fairly low. And that's on novels, not full color books filled with art and fancier/hardier paper. That costs the company extra, and art budgets can seriously get out of hand. The profit on books is a small fraction of the profit on minis.
Second, it's not that much a deviation from the industry norm. the Warmachine Prime Rulebook was $60 4 years ago, and that's half the size.
The pathfinder RPG core rules from last year is also $60. And that's a hardback, full color shelf breaker similar to the 40k rulebook.
Star Wars Edge of Empire? $60, 7 years ago
Star Trek Core Rules (Modiphius, 3 years ago) $58
So maybe 10% higher than similar books from 1-7 years ago.
BRB is in box. He's saying that the BRB is 65$ of the boxes price, which isn't totally true, but neither is the 200$ number for smart buyers.
I can purchase the book separately, but not the models. If I wanted the BRB (I do) then the nominal value of the models is $135.
Now there will be a glut of BRBs on eBay. Maybe $40 to $45? The standalone book is going for $55. So, $155 tops for the models.
it depends on how you calculate the discount for the Box itself (as GW said it is a set with a discount)
so either pay the full price for rules and the models are 50% off what regular Snap-Fit models, making it 135 at 50% (so regular ones will cost 135 for one half)
or the rule book is free and you pay full price for the models, making it 200 at 50% of regular Snap-Fit models
or you pay 50% for the rulebook, 50% for the models and the Special Edition Characters are free
it is nearly impossible to calculate the price that way and the saving is what GW tells you it is, specially if there is no regular way to buy that models
This post itself reveals the trick of psychology working
"Deals greater and greater"
Only relative to more and more expensive base product. They keep raising box prices, your brain goes "Wow the deals are so good" comparing them to the bundles. Which are also raising in price, somewhat slower.
We're well aware of price anchoring.
Now find me $135 of models in that quantity and quality.
Indomitus isn't a 135 dollars though?
BRB is in box. He's saying that the BRB is 65$ of the boxes price, which isn't totally true, but neither is the 200$ number for smart buyers.
I mean, rulebooks are one of the number one most grossly overpriced products for their actual value GW produces.
Not as much as you think
First, the profit margin on books is fairly low. And that's on novels, not full color books filled with art and fancier/hardier paper. That costs the publisher extra (art budgets canseriously get out of hand)
Second, it's not that much a deviation from the industry norm. the Warmachine Prime Rulebook was $60 4 years ago, and that's half the size.
The pathfinder RPG core rules from last year is also $60. And that's a hardback, full color shelf breaker similar to the 40k rulebook.
So maybe 10% higher than similar books from 1-4 years ago.
PnP rpgs, being party based, often benefit from one person buying the book and sharing it out with their friends.
I begrudge GW for sticking with this old fashioned structure of printing books. And charging for them. We all know it isn't where its profit comes from, and the rules, frankly, could stand to be free. And boy do they go all out on a book that'll be relevant for, what... three/four years? Until they sell the new one. And, honestly, the BRB might not be relevant in HALF a year depending on how they manage CA
I mean, rulebooks are one of the number one most grossly overpriced products for their actual value GW produces.
Not as much as you think
First, the profit margin on books is fairly low. And that's on novels, not full color books filled with art and fancier/hardier paper. That costs the publisher extra (art budgets canseriously get out of hand)
Full colour books like the BRB are indeed expensive to produce though profitable enough that Paizo runs a whole business off it. But whether the $65 BRB is actually a good value is a very interesting question. If a maxi-size magazine was sold for $20 USD and included only the rules without the fluff, that would be a great value--as well as being inexpensive. I really wish there was a players book that skipped all the background and just got on with how to play the game in three modes. Bundle it with every codex and Bob's your uncle.
I really wish there was a players book that skipped all the background and just got on with how to play the game in three modes. Bundle it with every codex and Bob's your uncle.
They could easily produce a 40K manual with just the rules, similar to the Kill Team manuals. For £25 I would definitely go for it.
If memory serves, 2nd Ed was £40. It came with 20 Tactical Marines (three part models), and a quantity of monopose Ork Boyz, Grots. Oh and a single flat cardboard Ork Dreadnought.
24 or so years later, we see Indomitus. Not only significantly more models, but ones of objectively better quality, intricacy and variety.
Some do stick out as odd (Blood of the Phoenix in particular), but to simply observe prices have gone up, without any regard to a possible matching increase in quality and or value isn’t exactly an honest stance, is it?
There's a point where quality does become subjective. Especially considering there are plenty of decade plus models still in the range.
But now I'm stuck trying to google the price of a battalion box in the early 2000s. And, wow, this is harder than I expected. Probably because battalions were a fantasy thing and 40k used different terminology.
But okay, lets see. Space wolves. 90 bucks would net you... 10 grey hunters, 10 blood claws, 3 bikes, and a rhino. Plus those old corner buildings. Savings over the individual kits? Much lower. Modern equivalent.... 10 tacs, a dread, 1 character. Pretty much half of the old box. Same price. I can tell you, in 15 years, inflation was not 100 percent (it's roughly 30 percent).
this is their deal bundles too. The individual kits are, as I am entirely sure you know, much, much worse.
And this is already based off a rather expensive hobby.
Battle Forces and Batallions are.....odd, in a way. As with their modern successor the Start Collecting box, they are not created equally.
See, they offer different value in relation to specific armies. Consider the current Ad Mech one. That I would wager is of a more universal appeal than its immediate predecessor. Not only is the Arch Magos gone (and he’s an expensive model in his own right), but the Onager has been swapped for the tank/transport dual kit. So I could buy six and get a decent force. Perhaps three transports, three tanks, and three of each Skitarii infantry units. Yes, I am left with far more Enginseers than I’ll find a use for. But as a percentage of the price point, he’s still less than the Arch Magos I don’t need more than a couple of.
So each needs to be assessed on its own merits, and by a given person’s metric. After all, the army I might have in mind won’t necessarily be the same as yours. But in terms of savings over buying individual kits, Start Collecting sets are pretty decent. Or can be. You get what I mean.
Indomitus? OK this is the most expensive set I’ve ever bought. But as a Necron player, I couldn’t say no. I’m doing swapsies on my two copies, and a friend who missed out and who’s pockets aren’t as deep, is having one of the Necron sets off me (£45 I felt was a fair price. Offsets my spending, without being a Richard or a charity case).
ERJAK wrote: Point of order. Point taken. Point of fact. Pointing things out. Match point. Pointing fingers. The point of it all. What's the point? Points of authority.
There's a lot of points out there, which is why I'm so irritated WE DON'T HAVE ANY YET!
gorram monday NDA lift...
So your point is about points?
Agreed. I want to start making lists now. And I need to see if csm are getting shafted again or not.
And my fellblade, please please please, I need to know if they finally fixed its points. It needs to be able to soak its treads in the blood of loyalist dogs again.
I just want to be able to actually build my stuff. The back half of my sisters army is just waiting to get put together once we figure out what everything costs.
If heavy bolters are really 10inf, 15 vehicle now, that changes how you use mortifiers entirely.
SamusDrake wrote: They could easily produce a 40K manual with just the rules, similar to the Kill Team manuals. For £25 I would definitely go for it.
If only GW somebody had invented smaller format softback rulebooks.
Oh well, that's clearly not something which is possible for GW to come up with...
Or even a small format hardback.
Having a massive tome with all the rules and fluff and pictures is nice to have at home, but on the road at the FLGS, you want something a little smaller. And digital is just not the same for quickly looking up rules.
SamusDrake wrote: They could easily produce a 40K manual with just the rules, similar to the Kill Team manuals. For £25 I would definitely go for it.
If only GW somebody had invented smaller format softback rulebooks.
Oh well, that's clearly not something which is possible for GW to come up with...
Or even a small format hardback.
Having a massive tome with all the rules and fluff and pictures is nice to have at home, but on the road at the FLGS, you want something a little smaller. And digital is just not the same for quickly looking up rules.
That's why I'm surprised they ditched 7th's format of having separate books , smaller books bundled together for lore/rules/hobby connected by the binder. I can only assume it was cheaper to produce the one single book and they were told to stick to that again.
ERJAK wrote: Point of order. Point taken. Point of fact. Pointing things out. Match point. Pointing fingers. The point of it all. What's the point? Points of authority.
There's a lot of points out there, which is why I'm so irritated WE DON'T HAVE ANY YET!
gorram monday NDA lift...
So your point is about points?
Agreed. I want to start making lists now. And I need to see if csm are getting shafted again or not.
And my fellblade, please please please, I need to know if they finally fixed its points. It needs to be able to soak its treads in the blood of loyalist dogs again.
I just want to be able to actually build my stuff. The back half of my sisters army is just waiting to get put together once we figure out what everything costs.
If heavy bolters are really 10inf, 15 vehicle now, that changes how you use mortifiers entirely.
Same. I've got unbuilt models that I need to know how to equip. Infantry heavy weapons seem to have come down. If that includes chaincannons, oh yeah, Katie bar those doors.
yukishiro1 wrote:CA2020 has the full rules in it, plus tournament missions.
It doesn't have crusade, or the unbalanced matched play missions that come with the main book, though.
Which has me wondering if I want to spend $65 on the brb or just get ca. Don't need more reprinted lore I've already read.
For those who will not play crusade or do not care about the lore in the BRB, purchase CA2020 instead. It has all the rules you will need, the missions you'll prefer to play, and the points for making lists.
Am I correct in understanding that the 'Breachable' trait outright prevents Monsters or Vehicles from entering terrain? Seems like my jungle board just became completely non-navigable for everything but infantry.
catbarf wrote: Am I correct in understanding that the 'Breachable' trait outright prevents Monsters or Vehicles from entering terrain? Seems like my jungle board just became completely non-navigable for everything but infantry.
Nope. It's the old "infantry can move through ruin walls" rule. If there is an obstacle more than 1", vehicles and monsters can drive up and over it (so long as they have the movement to complete the move and not end up halfway up/down a wall or something, and physically fit in the destination).
Also, you decide what terrain gets what traits. If, for the sake of having a fun/functional table, you need to specifically use/avoid traits, then you can do that.
ERJAK wrote: Point of order. Point taken. Point of fact. Pointing things out. Match point. Pointing fingers. The point of it all. What's the point? Points of authority.
There's a lot of points out there, which is why I'm so irritated WE DON'T HAVE ANY YET!
gorram monday NDA lift...
In a thread full of pointless arguing, this made me laugh. Have an Exalt!
BrotherGecko wrote: Equilibrium Games in CA seems to have taken several boxes and is selling them by sprue on eBay. If pre-order was yesterday how does this store have boxes to physically sell?
I'd love to know if that is a breach of their distribution agreement.
Mixzremixzd wrote: How long did it take before the SOB second wave hit preorders? That may or may not be an indication of when to expect the second wave of Necron releases that were directly and indirectly teased, as well as multi-part sculpts for the Overlord, Skorpekh, Codex etc.
tneva82 wrote: It is not. Starter set comes later. Starter sets have all you need to play. This does not. Starter sets aren't limited in stock. This is.
Starter set is what comes later. Why arque against gw? You lose. Automatically.
What are you talking about? This set contains the full rule book, two armies and the rules to field them! Aside from the lack of a ruler and D6 dice - which anybody will highly likely have to hand and if not would barely cost £3 for both - there is nothing else players require for a full game of 40K.
Whether its limited or not, this box set is still a starter set because it functions as such.
Why argue against simple logic? You lose. Automatically.
Lol. Says guy that lists things always in starter sets that miss and claims it's starter set.
Yes. Simple logic wins. That's why you lost. Epic fail
BrotherGecko wrote: Equilibrium Games in CA seems to have taken several boxes and is selling them by sprue on eBay. If pre-order was yesterday how does this store have boxes to physically sell?
I'd love to know if that is a breach of their distribution agreement.
If they're getting the stock from GW almost certainly, but they may well be getting it from a distributor instead where things get much fuzzier (I think GW could hit the distributor for allowing it, but cutting of a single store is trivial, cutting of a distributor who shifts a significant chunk of stock, and who is probably better placed to acutally pay for lawyers to argue about it is another thing)
For anyone who missed out on Indomitus, don't give up yet. I got the e-mail from Frontline Gaming stating they oversold and I wouldn't be getting my Indomitus box. I was googling last night and it showed that a local business I had never heard of mentioned it on their Facebook page. It was almost 7pm and they closed at 5pm but I called anyways. Someone picked up and told me they were allotted 30 and had 5 left. I got my name in last night. Turns out this random craft store in Queen's NY called "Cook's Crafts" has been doing Warhammer for a couple years now and I had no idea. The point is, some of these really obscure stores might be a good place to check out if you want to put in the time. Some of these little out of the way shops aren't going to move a $200 item as fast as the big online guys.
About half an hour to go (from this post) to see if GW is going to announce a proper 9th ed starter. It'd be the perfect time to do so, and might take some wind out of the scalper's sales in the models are in that box too.
ClockworkZion wrote: About half an hour to go (from this post) to see if GW is going to announce a proper 9th ed starter. It'd be the perfect time to do so, and might take some wind out of the scalper's sales in the models are in that box too.
"Now that we've sold through the box we are starting the edition with, here's a start box!"
Lemondish wrote: For those who will not play crusade or do not care about the lore in the BRB, purchase CA2020 instead. It has all the rules you will need, the missions you'll prefer to play, and the points for making lists.
Really? What's this based on?
It has points and missions, but i don't see anything about army building, detachments, CP, strats and rules along those lines (which aren't in the Core Rules pdf either). Like 8th, it seems that there are a fair chunk of rules that are only in the BRB, but are necessary to actually play the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote: About half an hour to go (from this post) to see if GW is going to announce a proper 9th ed starter. It'd be the perfect time to do so, and might take some wind out of the scalper's sales in the models are in that box too.
They won't. That'd be beyond stupid to do the next day. It'd be a mess of cancelled orders, re-orders, mucking about and yelling.
You can see a PDF of the contents page on the Games Workshop website. Everything seems to me there that you mentioned except the detachments, which seems like a really weird thing to leave out when you have everything else in - and is also something I can't imagine anyone is going to spend $65 for when the info is all freely available in the public domain.
I don't know why a starter would result in cancelled Indomitus boxes for non-scalpers unless you ignored all the "it's not a starter" statements and then it's on you.
Lol. Says guy that lists things always in starter sets that miss and claims it's starter set.
Yes. Simple logic wins. That's why you lost. Epic fail
Just because they only include the datasheets, there is nothing stopping two players from having a game out of the box. Not even First strike has the full rules nor the codices, yet is still a starter set.
It still stands, this is still a 40K game out of the box, which is the definition of a starter set.
Look, tneva82 - if you put logic on the table I will always be the one to say "okay, I stand corrected.", and have done so in the past. I invite you to do so.
ClockworkZion wrote: I don't know why a starter would result in cancelled Indomitus boxes for non-scalpers unless you ignored all the "it's not a starter" statements and then it's on you.
Its got nothing to do with that. That's... not even vaguely relevant.
You start giving people alternatives to buy, and some who bought the one will decide to buy the other instead. Its why GW doesn't talk about releases in advance- they want the money for the current product, not for people to save for the _next_ product.
New releases start out strong and then drop to fairly static levels fast. That's fine for kits once they've been out for a while, but you don't give people reasons to buy other things before release.
People are more reluctant to return products, even if they aren't happy with them later or want something else. They're not that reluctant to cancel a preorder.
Edit: unsurprisingly they aren't even putting up preorders for the Underworlds or AoS backlog to distract from 40k.
Lol. Says guy that lists things always in starter sets that miss and claims it's starter set.
Yes. Simple logic wins. That's why you lost. Epic fail
Just because they only include the datasheets, there is nothing stopping two players from having a game out of the box. Not even First strike has the full rules nor the codices, yet is still a starter set.
It still stands, this is still a 40K game out of the box, which is the definition of a starter set.
Look, tneva82 - if you put logic on the table I will always be the one to say "okay, I stand corrected.", and have done so in the past. I invite you to do so.
You can call the box a starter or a beginner's box or even Private Jenkins if you want to. GW says it's not a starter and that's what matters so can we please drop this meaningless tangent?
Lol. Says guy that lists things always in starter sets that miss and claims it's starter set.
Yes. Simple logic wins. That's why you lost. Epic fail
Just because they only include the datasheets, there is nothing stopping two players from having a game out of the box. Not even First strike has the full rules nor the codices, yet is still a starter set.
It still stands, this is still a 40K game out of the box, which is the definition of a starter set.
Look, tneva82 - if you put logic on the table I will always be the one to say "okay, I stand corrected.", and have done so in the past. I invite you to do so.
You can call the box a starter or a beginner's box or even Private Jenkins if you want to. GW says it's not a starter and that's what matters so can we please drop this meaningless tangent?
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?
Do you not know how marketing works?
Again, you have it reversed. The price of the individual kits are so high so that you are driven to buy the bundle, which often comes with some extra stuff you do not need. It's basic psychology to manipulate people's ability to compare similar things. You produce limited product for a "discount" (Note that it is all relative and GW is not loosing a cent on the "sale" they are offering here. They're actually making quite a lot) to further incentive people buying all of it immediately with no thought or consideration.
I mean come on, are you just not thinking through what people are writing here?
The thread moves pretty fast; it seems like you missed some previous back-and-forth with him that lends additional context to my comment. But the passive-aggressive insults are uncalled for regardless.
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?
Do you not know how marketing works?
Again, you have it reversed. The price of the individual kits are so high so that you are driven to buy the bundle, which often comes with some extra stuff you do not need. It's basic psychology to manipulate people's ability to compare similar things. You produce limited product for a "discount" (Note that it is all relative and GW is not loosing a cent on the "sale" they are offering here. They're actually making quite a lot) to further incentive people buying all of it immediately with no thought or consideration.
I mean come on, are you just not thinking through what people are writing here?
The thread moves pretty fast; it seems like you missed some previous back-and-forth with him that lends additional context to my comment. But the passive-aggressive insults are uncalled for regardless.
...I keep wanting to post the random nonsense that's filling my brain as it desperately tries to occupy itself with something other than thinking about the new points not having been leaked yet, but I imagine it would be woefully off topic.
They won't. That'd be beyond stupid to do the next day. It'd be a mess of cancelled orders, re-orders, mucking about and yelling.
August, minimum. Likely december or january.
That would be stupid of players. Buy discount box, cancel when starter set comes. That's like cancelling buying baneblade when crisis suit gets released. 2 different products.
Starter set discount likely worse anyway. Why cancel better product for worse
They won't. That'd be beyond stupid to do the next day. It'd be a mess of cancelled orders, re-orders, mucking about and yelling.
August, minimum. Likely december or january.
That would be stupid of players. Buy discount box, cancel when starter set comes. That's like cancelling buying baneblade when crisis suit gets released. 2 different products.
Starter set discount likely worse anyway. Why cancel better product for worse
It depends what's in each, obviously. If the starter is just less of what's in Indomitus, it would be. If it involves different forces, obviously people are going to buy what the faction(s) they actually want.
It isn't a baneblade vs crisis suit comparison. It'd be more like putting up Looncurse for preorder, and the next day saying, hey, next week we'll be selling [whatever the Strigoi vs Skaven set was called].
...with the exception that obviously the starter will also in involve space marines.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
I doubt this is going to have any long term effect. Once the new shinies are available, most people will move on.
I don't know. People still piss and moan about Squats, or about losing the options of the 3.5 CSM book. The 40k community holds grudges for a long time and teaxhes new.players to hold those same grudges.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
In my view, the only real difference between the GW of today and the GW of 10 years ago is they now have a marketing department to Hype Hype Hype. Beyond that, not much has changed in the grand scheme of things...
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
All broken hearts will mend in a week or two.
don't know. People still piss and moan about Squats, or about losing the options of the 3.5 CSM book. The 40k community holds grudges for a long time and teaxhes new.players to hold those same grudges.
Those are bad examples. Its empty moaning, since the moaners have stayed GW customers for 20+ years.
That kind of moaning is absolute win for GW. People who care so much that they stick around and complain? And still buy stuff? Thats the kind of 'disgruntled customer' every company loves.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
I doubt this is going to have any long term effect. Once the new shinies are available, most people will move on.
I don't know. People still piss and moan about Squats, or about losing the options of the 3.5 CSM book. The 40k community holds grudges for a long time and teaxhes new.players to hold those same grudges.
They're still playing though, and really this is a vocal extreme minority.
I'm sure you'll have people complaining about indomitus sell out for the next decade, but the reality is these people probably don't even represent a rounding error of the actual fanbase.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
Facebook posts can be hidden and not deleted.
The Social Media guy can't make any comments about scalpers or shortages. That would be from Management who most likely won't be back in the office until Monday and then must decide exactly what they're going to say (if anything) on the subject(s).
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
No it isn't. The majority of people already either got their's, are blaming the scalpers themselves, or(like me) just don't care at all about the free market being the free market for an elastic good. A chunk of people are pissed now but a big subsection of them won't be anymore the second they secure their own box.
The funny thing is that while I did get one? If I didn’t? I wouldn’t be losing any sleep over it.
I would just get the hacksaw and start converting from the extra bodies I have and the huge mountain of bits(GW and third party) that are sitting around.
I would honestly be surprised if there is not already a weapon arm set for CC primaris on shapeways right now. If GW doesn’t want my money from having the product available, I got no problem converting my own.
Different time periods in starting the hobby I assume.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
GW could mandate you being kicked between the legs with every purchase and they'd make millions in profit, as well as plenty of people telling us why actually it's a good thing.
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?
Do you not know how marketing works?
Again, you have it reversed. The price of the individual kits are so high so that you are driven to buy the bundle, which often comes with some extra stuff you do not need. It's basic psychology to manipulate people's ability to compare similar things. You produce limited product for a "discount" (Note that it is all relative and GW is not loosing a cent on the "sale" they are offering here. They're actually making quite a lot) to further incentive people buying all of it immediately with no thought or consideration.
I mean come on, are you just not thinking through what people are writing here?
The thread moves pretty fast; it seems like you missed some previous back-and-forth with him that lends additional context to my comment. But the passive-aggressive insults are uncalled for regardless.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
GW could mandate you being kicked between the legs with every purchase and they'd make millions in profit, as well as plenty of people telling us why actually it's a good thing.
They'll be fine.
Indeed. And if they added a limited edition "comes with a free kick in the nuts" edition, people would be desperately mad if they didn't secure their kick because it sold out immediately.
But again, that's just a testament to how well GW have the whole FOMO thing worked out.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
GW could mandate you being kicked between the legs with every purchase and they'd make millions in profit, as well as plenty of people telling us why actually it's a good thing.
They'll be fine.
No they couldn't. The hard truth is that the majority of the community, especially the IRL community are happy enough with GW's releases. If they weren't, people wouldn't be buying them.
Don't forget that GW was VERY RECENTLY in dire financial straits with a clearly failing flagship release(launch sigmar). People were absolutely ready to stop buying GW at the end of 7th edition. So they changed direction and made the first general's handbook.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well GW is mass deleting Facebook comments aboit Indomitus still. They won't even acknowledge the scalper problem.
This kids, is how you lose three years of public approval and salvaged reputation in a single weekend.
GW could mandate you being kicked between the legs with every purchase and they'd make millions in profit, as well as plenty of people telling us why actually it's a good thing.
They'll be fine.
No they couldn't. The hard truth is that the majority of the community, especially the IRL community are happy enough with GW's releases. If they weren't, people wouldn't be buying them.
Don't forget that GW was VERY RECENTLY in dire financial straits with a clearly failing flagship release(launch sigmar). People were absolutely ready to stop buying GW at the end of 7th edition. So they changed direction and made the first general's handbook.
It's almost like having a monopoly is beneficial or something.
Gotta love the N'th ammount of primaris but the background backbone of Chaos can feth off accordingly t o gw.
That's just not right! Sorry , I feel for you . I'll sure put a note for R&H and Eldar corsairs when GW does its next poll (do they still do those?). [edit]And something about Inquisition too![/edit]
Goblin Gaming have said that GW hve told them they are receiving a second wave of 381 units in late August but I’m sceptical of this. Have any other retailers been told the same?
Indeed. And if they added a limited edition "comes with a free kick in the nuts" edition, people would be desperately mad if they didn't secure their kick because it sold out immediately.
Scalpers are gonna scalp, it comes with the territory when a company produces limited quantities of product. It can be stopped on both ends - either by customers boycotting them, or by GW taking a stronger stand against them - but neither one seems particularly likely. People want their plastic crack too badly to resist the scalpers, and GW has never shown much interest in cracking down on resellers (unless, of course, they resell too low, rather than too high).
Gotta love the N'th ammount of primaris but the background backbone of Chaos can feth off accordingly t o gw.
That's just not right! Sorry , I feel for you .
I'll sure put a note for R&H and Eldar corsairs when GW does its next poll (do they still do those?).
[edit]And something about Inquisition too![/edit]
Thanks , but i feel GW divereged quite a bit away kinda, especially in consumer relations.
The last debacle with the preorder of the preorder for the new box just shows that something isn't right anymore in that regard.
Gotta love the N'th ammount of primaris but the background backbone of Chaos can feth off accordingly t o gw.
That's just not right! Sorry , I feel for you .
I'll sure put a note for R&H and Eldar corsairs when GW does its next poll (do they still do those?).
[edit]And something about Inquisition too![/edit]
Thanks , but i feel GW divereged quite a bit away kinda, especially in consumer relations.
The last debacle with the preorder of the preorder for the new box just shows that something isn't right anymore in that regard.
I'm a bit confused by that last bit. A 'first come, first serve' reserve list is pretty much the best option for a physical shop.
Before the wild days of the internet it was our only option.
The alternative is a scrum at the cash register as people shout for attention when the shop opens on preorder day. That just isn't workable.
And now I'm having flashbacks to Harry Potter release days while working for bookstores...
Na i meant the wierd PR /communication.
And the deletion of comments in fb.
Their right to do so but it shows imo that new gw is just old gw +PR.
The deletion of fw armies and internal issues or what Looks Like power struggles Of Office politics , the fact that gw was Content to let the rulesteam literally Run both elysians and r&h into the ground over 8th Edition aswell as most fw Stuff was with questionable price hikes just the crown after the back Of 7th.
Gotta love the N'th ammount of primaris but the background backbone of Chaos can feth off accordingly t o gw.
That's just not right! Sorry , I feel for you .
I'll sure put a note for R&H and Eldar corsairs when GW does its next poll (do they still do those?).
[edit]And something about Inquisition too![/edit]
Thanks , but i feel GW divereged quite a bit away kinda, especially in consumer relations.
The last debacle with the preorder of the preorder for the new box just shows that something isn't right anymore in that regard.
I'm a bit confused by that last bit. A 'first come, first serve' reserve list is pretty much the best option for a physical shop.
Before the wild days of the internet it was our only option.
The alternative is a scrum at the cash register as people shout for attention when the shop opens on preorder day. That just isn't workable.
And now I'm having flashbacks to Harry Potter release days while working for bookstores...
Sure, but take a step back for a moment and consider the full context.
Shops started basically taking advance pre-orders on a product, before they had received their allocation numbers from GW. FLGSs had to submit their order quantities last Thursday, and didn't receive their actual allocation numbers until Friday, meaning they had no way to know how many they would get while making promises to their own customers.
Moreover, we also know a lot of these stores tried to order quantities over 100 boxes, some even in the 300 box range. That speaks to a massive disconnect between expectation and reality not just for customers but also store owners. Hundreds is the quantity that you would order for a starter set, not something that in hindsight was intended to be more akin to the Sisters of Battle army box.
My point is that it's completely irresponsible as a business owner to take effective pre-orders on something before you even know how many units you'll be receiving. Especially when the company producing the product has made a consistent point of calling it limited. That's just a recipe to burn your own customers as bad or worse than if you made them show up on pre-order day to fight for a copy.
(Now, I'm basing all of this on a 3rd Party retailer email posted in the 40k General thread, so if there is an actual store owner here that can clear this up, please do.)
That being said, GW also holds a massive amount of blame for this. Why they would release a discount box of all new models, on the eve of a new edition, bundled with a special edition rulebook, as a limited "collectors" product, all while not selling an actual standard starter set is just mind numbingly stupid.
My only guess is that there will be a normal starter set with 90% the same contents (or some equivalent "new hobbyist deal where you get a SC + the core book) for a similar price to Dark Imperium, and they were worried about cannibalizing the sales of Indomitus when people decided that they didn't need to spend $200.
But beyond even that GW clearly saw problems coming given that they kept trying to temper expectations in the community posts going from "everyone will have a chance to get one" all the way to "you can't order more than 3!" And yet despite that still didn't seem to clearly inform their stockists given how blindsided they were come last Friday...
Not Online!!! wrote: Na i meant the wierd PR /communication.
And the deletion of comments in fb.
Their right to do so but it shows imo that new gw is just old gw +PR.
The deletion of fw armies and internal issues or what Looks Like power struggles Of Office politics , the fact that gw was Content to let the rulesteam literally Run both elysians and r&h into the ground over 8th Edition aswell as most fw Stuff was with questionable price hikes just the crown after the back Of 7th.
I hate autocorrect...
Yeah the unofficial stories that I heard through a couple of directions was that it was main studio who went looking to take over the FW40k rules and have dones nothing but strip rules/mechnics from units and increase their points.
It's almost like someone is trying to bury FW models in the utterly unplayable pile, because of terrible rules.
Not to mwntion they can spend hourse talking about new Primaris this that and the next thing that won't be released for month's but the books that have supposedly been ready and shipped are never mentioned WTF thats some deliberate burrying.
Aye , supposedly according to gw the fw books are Finisherd or close and will be released early , yet we have Seen jack, beyond now knowing that corsairs, elysians and r&h haven't survived.
I'd not be surprised if dkok will get the 8th Level feths of r&h this time.
I think it's pretty clear GW thinks they have enough product lines in the main game already. I would expect that all the FW-only factions will get fully squatted sooner or later, unless they are instead adopted into the normal GW system and supported that way. GW sees FW as a premium models for existing factions division, not as a division that puts out whole new factions.
Don't forget that GW was VERY RECENTLY in dire financial straits with a clearly failing flagship release(launch sigmar). People were absolutely ready to stop buying GW at the end of 7th edition. So they changed direction and made the first general's handbook.
They weren't in a dire situation. They were still turning a profit, it was just becoming a smaller profit every quarter.
Look at all it took to bring those people back; a standard issue "we are the Brand are your friends!" of a social media campaign and some beginner sets. Pretty much nothing at all and people came crawling back in droves. Despite continuing more or less the same practises as before - horrible rules writing, regular price increases, annoying business practises - they do it with a smile and a meme, tossing freebies at shills- I mean influencers to tell us everything is GLLOORRIIOOUSS and to keep buying their product. In any other sector of retail, GW wouldn't been ashes a decade ago but look at how little was needed to bring the plane back up.
Age of Sigmar's another good example of what I mean. What did GHB? Actually make the game playable and by 2.0 it was a roaring success. Can you possibly imagine any other company, in or out of gaming, being able to so abruptly turn around a failing product so quickly with what amounted to a few spreadsheets of numbers?
It's almost like someone is trying to bury FW models in the utterly unplayable pile, because of terrible rules.
Not to mwntion they can spend hourse talking about new Primaris this that and the next thing that won't be released for month's but the books that have supposedly been ready and shipped are never mentioned WTF thats some deliberate burrying.
Well they are. When 100 spent on plastic gives better profit than 100 spent on resin gw has vested interest those that spam best go for plastic. Resin is left for those who collect 1 of everything rather than what's best
Ghaz wrote: [
You can call the box a starter or a beginner's box or even Private Jenkins if you want to. GW says it's not a starter and that's what matters so can we please drop this meaningless tangent?
You are technically right of course. But if it pisses off your customers, being right doesn't matter a jot. The launch box selling out in 10 minutes is a failure to your customer base which ever way you smell it
It's almost like someone is trying to bury FW models in the utterly unplayable pile, because of terrible rules.
Not to mwntion they can spend hourse talking about new Primaris this that and the next thing that won't be released for month's but the books that have supposedly been ready and shipped are never mentioned WTF thats some deliberate burrying.
Well they are. When 100 spent on plastic gives better profit than 100 spent on resin gw has vested interest those that spam best go for plastic. Resin is left for those who collect 1 of everything rather than what's best
Well they can enjoy 100%of zero as that how much I'll ever be spending on Primefail marines.
It's also annoying when they drop 100's of points from a codex model but the FW version which has the same stats but different weapons gets a points increase at the next CA. It's beyond blatent at that point.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: Goblin Gaming have said that GW hve told them they are receiving a second wave of 381 units in late August but I’m sceptical of this. Have any other retailers been told the same?
A few others (Outpost & Wayland IIRC) have said similar things - that there'll be more in August once GW gets more boxes printed.
ERJAK wrote: Don't forget that GW was VERY RECENTLY in dire financial straits with a clearly failing flagship release(launch sigmar). People were absolutely ready to stop buying GW at the end of 7th edition. So they changed direction and made the first general's handbook.
What makes you say that they were in "dire financial straits"? From what I remember, GW has no debt. They are in a really healthy position to weather all kinds of financial shocks.
ERJAK wrote: ...I keep wanting to post the random nonsense that's filling my brain as it desperately tries to occupy itself with something other than thinking about the new points not having been leaked yet, but I imagine it would be woefully off topic.
Do iiiiit! Muting to break this innane cycle of arguing over nothing lol. I'm probably going to buy the two CA books anyway just so I have copies of missions etc. I see no reason to buy the BRB though other than for crusade, everything else is either low I know about our rules that are in the core set anyway.
ERJAK wrote: Don't forget that GW was VERY RECENTLY in dire financial straits with a clearly failing flagship release(launch sigmar). People were absolutely ready to stop buying GW at the end of 7th edition. So they changed direction and made the first general's handbook.
What makes you say that they were in "dire financial straits"? From what I remember, GW has no debt. They are in a really healthy position to weather all kinds of financial shocks.
I think he means two or three years ago when the general stock trend was flat or downwards, sustained solely by price inflation to cover dwindling sales of their new flagship product and motivated, allegedly, mostly by certain directors’ desire to pad their retirement package stock options. There was a general sense of impending doom – some people were genuinely worried the company would become completely unsustainable if it carried on and would have to be broken up or, worse, sold to Hasbro. Then certain people left and the new creative team revamped AoS into an actual game, tripled the production rate for new stuff, and doubled the stock price in about three months. It’s not quite a Trading Places level legendary turnaround but GAW was suddenly a stock pension funds were looking seriously at instead of teetering on the brink of a general sell-off.
I personally wouldn’t have called their financial states dire at the time but certainly if the writing wasn’t on the wall yet at the time, people definitely were looking around for the pen. So potentially dire with poor prospects for recovery outside a major change.
Mr_Rose wrote: I think he means two or three years ago when the general stock trend was flat or downwards, sustained solely by price inflation to cover dwindling sales of their new flagship product and motivated, allegedly, mostly by certain directors’ desire to pad their retirement package stock options. There was a general sense of impending doom – some people were genuinely worried the company would become completely unsustainable if it carried on and would have to be broken up or, worse, sold to Hasbro. Then certain people left and the new creative team revamped AoS into an actual game, tripled the production rate for new stuff, and doubled the stock price in about three months. It’s not quite a Trading Places level legendary turnaround but GAW was suddenly a stock pension funds were looking seriously at instead of teetering on the brink of a general sell-off.
I personally wouldn’t have called their financial states dire at the time but certainly if the writing wasn’t on the wall yet at the time, people definitely were looking around for the pen. So potentially dire with poor prospects for recovery outside a major change.
I think that if they were heavily leveraged at the time, and then that situation happened, that would have been pretty dire. But when you can just borrow money you can easily survive such troubling times.
Thing is what has helped GW survive so long is specifically not borrowing money. So so so many of the bigger brand names we see falling apart are doing so because they have taken out big loans to expand and maintain themselves. Which means when the economy takes a big downturn they can't just adjust their business to suit. They can only lower their overheads so much because they have a massive loan overhead that needs regular repayments.
Even they've they've made millions each year they've still got far more in debt. So you can see large companies that, without the loans, would survive; suddenly crumble and fall apart.
GW hasn't got that risk and its protected them for years. Sure it has also slowed them, chances are some big loans early on and they could have become a giant in the market far more so than they are today. However they might have also had increased risks during recessions.
The other protection is that other big brands haven't really pushed into the wargaming market so GW hasn't had to compete with big names flooding the market with advertising and super-cheap product and vast market outreach. Actions that often force other firms in other markets to take out their own loans so that they can remain current instead of being left behind by richer (or loan taking) firms.
It's almost like someone is trying to bury FW models in the utterly unplayable pile, because of terrible rules.
Not to mwntion they can spend hourse talking about new Primaris this that and the next thing that won't be released for month's but the books that have supposedly been ready and shipped are never mentioned WTF thats some deliberate burrying.
Well they are. When 100 spent on plastic gives better profit than 100 spent on resin gw has vested interest those that spam best go for plastic. Resin is left for those who collect 1 of everything rather than what's best
More accurately, Resin is for stuff that isn't practical or cost effective to do in plastic. Anything super huge, anything with lots of fine detail and undercuts, particularly if it's best as a singular piece instead of a multi-part component, is where resin shines, but yes it's not as cost effective as plastics with the scale GW operates at for the main product lines.
Don't forget that GW was VERY RECENTLY in dire financial straits with a clearly failing flagship release(launch sigmar). People were absolutely ready to stop buying GW at the end of 7th edition. So they changed direction and made the first general's handbook.
They weren't in a dire situation. They were still turning a profit, it was just becoming a smaller profit every quarter.
Look at all it took to bring those people back; a standard issue "we are the Brand are your friends!" of a social media campaign and some beginner sets. Pretty much nothing at all and people came crawling back in droves. Despite continuing more or less the same practises as before - horrible rules writing, regular price increases, annoying business practises - they do it with a smile and a meme, tossing freebies at shills- I mean influencers to tell us everything is GLLOORRIIOOUSS and to keep buying their product. In any other sector of retail, GW wouldn't been ashes a decade ago but look at how little was needed to bring the plane back up.
Age of Sigmar's another good example of what I mean. What did GHB? Actually make the game playable and by 2.0 it was a roaring success. Can you possibly imagine any other company, in or out of gaming, being able to so abruptly turn around a failing product so quickly with what amounted to a few spreadsheets of numbers?
It was more than that, much more. The first GHB introduced a number of matched play rules but also heralded the start of allegiance abilities and pricing schemes where new models were coming out at considerably less, and even rebooting some at a tremendous discount per model than originally. They also started releasing Start Collecting boxes around that time which reduced the effective price of the game even more as well as including 'stealth' price decreases. The cost to build some armies, newer ones especially, went down by 25% or more in some cases. They ALSO started with the additional PR around this time, which compounded things; not only were they presenting themselves as reforming, they backed it up in a big way.
I have been shocked how quickly the severity of late Kirby-era GW has been forgotten even by people who are issuing criticism.
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?
Do you not know how marketing works?
Again, you have it reversed. The price of the individual kits are so high so that you are driven to buy the bundle, which often comes with some extra stuff you do not need. It's basic psychology to manipulate people's ability to compare similar things. You produce limited product for a "discount" (Note that it is all relative and GW is not loosing a cent on the "sale" they are offering here. They're actually making quite a lot) to further incentive people buying all of it immediately with no thought or consideration.
I mean come on, are you just not thinking through what people are writing here?
The thread moves pretty fast; it seems like you missed some previous back-and-forth with him that lends additional context to my comment. But the passive-aggressive insults are uncalled for regardless.
Your post was super passive aggressive itself, so I tend to respond in kind.
And I've read every post. I can't promise I've fully processed them all.
I can tell.
"How dare you be passive aggressive"
*Proceeds to be passive aggressive*
Do you just not read your own posts in this thread? So many of them literally ooze condescension
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: Thing is what has helped GW survive so long is specifically not borrowing money. So so so many of the bigger brand names we see falling apart are doing so because they have taken out big loans to expand and maintain themselves. Which means when the economy takes a big downturn they can't just adjust their business to suit. They can only lower their overheads so much because they have a massive loan overhead that needs regular repayments.
Even they've they've made millions each year they've still got far more in debt. So you can see large companies that, without the loans, would survive; suddenly crumble and fall apart.
GW hasn't got that risk and its protected them for years. Sure it has also slowed them, chances are some big loans early on and they could have become a giant in the market far more so than they are today. However they might have also had increased risks during recessions.
The other protection is that other big brands haven't really pushed into the wargaming market so GW hasn't had to compete with big names flooding the market with advertising and super-cheap product and vast market outreach. Actions that often force other firms in other markets to take out their own loans so that they can remain current instead of being left behind by richer (or loan taking) firms.
I've said it before. But the second Jeff Bezos goes "Man I like wargaming, let's do that", GW's days as an independent company are over.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think it's pretty clear GW thinks they have enough product lines in the main game already. I would expect that all the FW-only factions will get fully squatted sooner or later, unless they are instead adopted into the normal GW system and supported that way. GW sees FW as a premium models for existing factions division, not as a division that puts out whole new factions.
They don't even support most of the fw models for existing factions. All the fw super heavys got a massive points hike in ca 2018 (and they were already overpriced in the Indexes) and those high costs were simply reprinted in ca 2019, when almost all non-fw super heavys got a reduction. Except for one fw super heavy: the Astreus. Can anyone guess what makes the Astreus different from other fw super heavys? Here's a hint: primaris.
There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.
There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.
Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.
Alright, some may not get released individually.
But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.
So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.
Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.
'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.
So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?
Do you not know how marketing works?
Again, you have it reversed. The price of the individual kits are so high so that you are driven to buy the bundle, which often comes with some extra stuff you do not need. It's basic psychology to manipulate people's ability to compare similar things. You produce limited product for a "discount" (Note that it is all relative and GW is not loosing a cent on the "sale" they are offering here. They're actually making quite a lot) to further incentive people buying all of it immediately with no thought or consideration.
I mean come on, are you just not thinking through what people are writing here?
The thread moves pretty fast; it seems like you missed some previous back-and-forth with him that lends additional context to my comment. But the passive-aggressive insults are uncalled for regardless.
It seems you now understand my perspective, to some extent, stratigo.
But for the record, no, I was not being passive aggressive to start. I was very directly questioning the idea that someone would express the Indomitus box being of poor enough value that people must be manipulated into buying it, then turn around and express the very opposite.
NinthMusketeer wrote: It seems you now understand my perspective, to some extent, stratigo.
But for the record, no, I was not being passive aggressive to start. I was very directly questioning the idea that someone would express the Indomitus box being of poor enough value that people must be manipulated into buying it, then turn around and express the very opposite.
Is that what you were doing? You should have just said, rather than dancing vaguely about.
But if that's your point:
Manipulation is independent of value. You can still push additional people into purchases with shady tactics even if they're a good deal or even cheap.*
Moving the goalposts from 'limited but widely available,' to '6 max' to '3 max' (the latter in 24 hours), to '1 total' definitely qualifies as manipulation with Fear of Missing Out, regardless of the value. Pretty heavy handed to my mind.
*see the fast food industry for easy examples. Its quite easy to manipulate someone into large fries and a large drink, even if they aren't that hungry. Its much harder to manipulate them into additional meals per visit.
NinthMusketeer wrote: It seems you now understand my perspective, to some extent, stratigo.
But for the record, no, I was not being passive aggressive to start. I was very directly questioning the idea that someone would express the Indomitus box being of poor enough value that people must be manipulated into buying it, then turn around and express the very opposite.
Is that what you were doing? You should have just said, rather than dancing vaguely about.
But if that's your point:
Manipulation is independent of value. You can still push additional people into purchases with shady tactics even if they're a good deal or even cheap.*
Moving the goalposts from 'limited but widely available,' to '6 max' to '3 max' (the latter in 24 hours), to '1 total' definitely qualifies as manipulation with Fear of Missing Out, regardless of the value. Pretty heavy handed to my mind.
*see the fast food industry for easy examples. Its quite easy to manipulate someone into large fries and a large drink, even if they aren't that hungry. Its much harder to manipulate them into additional meals per visit.
That was just the initial question, the dancing was me indulging an admittedly guilty pleasure at stratigo's expense. At any rate, I understand your position more now that you explain it that way. But I still very much disagree; when something is of such good value the manipulation makes no sense in light of it being limited. They were going to sell out, just by virtue of the product's appeal vs its supply. You already explained the value of the product, and shown how it retains that value even to someone just buying it to resell. There is no way it was not going to sell out, and given GW's past I think them (vastly) underestimating demand is far more plausible than them engaging in manipulation to ensure it sold out just a bit faster. In particular I note that GW has plenty of times over-produced limited products to an extent that they can still be found on shelves today. That shows they have had trouble with sales estimates in the past.
NinthMusketeer wrote: But I still very much disagree; when something is of such good value the manipulation makes no sense in light of it being limited. They were going to sell out, just by virtue of the product's appeal vs its supply. You already explained the value of the product, and shown how it retains that value even to someone just buying it to resell. There is no way it was not going to sell out, and given GW's past I think them (vastly) underestimating demand is far more plausible than them engaging in manipulation to ensure it sold out just a bit faster. In particular I note that GW has plenty of times over-produced limited products to an extent that they can still be found on shelves today. That shows they have had trouble with sales estimates in the past.
going by the argument that GW underastimated the demand of the box would mean that GW still has no clue what their community wants and/or thought that people buy models because they like the background no matter how outdated they are
so it was a big surprise for them that so many people wanted a box with shiny new Necrons, after weeks of heavy advertising, although no one bought the old crap models.
not like some people waited ~10 years for new Warrior models before they wanted to start that army
hence it would mean that GW learned nothing from the fail of Warhammer Fantasy and was just lucky with their decisions
of course it is easier to think about that GW leanred from mistakes and knows what they are doing and of course having the launch box sold out in 30 minutes and people complaining about on the web is the best advertising for a new game you can get as it means the game is very popular and everyone is playing it (while having launch box in stock for 2 weeks leads to the impression that that it is not as popular as other games were before and all kind of conclusions etc)
so there is only a problem if the crowed that is pissed because it did not get the box stays away from 9th and keeps playing 8th or turn to another game and in addition is large enough to hurt future sales
NinthMusketeer wrote: But I still very much disagree; when something is of such good value the manipulation makes no sense in light of it being limited. They were going to sell out, just by virtue of the product's appeal vs its supply. You already explained the value of the product, and shown how it retains that value even to someone just buying it to resell. There is no way it was not going to sell out, and given GW's past I think them (vastly) underestimating demand is far more plausible than them engaging in manipulation to ensure it sold out just a bit faster. In particular I note that GW has plenty of times over-produced limited products to an extent that they can still be found on shelves today. That shows they have had trouble with sales estimates in the past.
going by the argument that GW underastimated the demand of the box would mean that GW still has no clue what their community wants and/or thought that people buy models because they like the background no matter how outdated they are
so it was a big surprise for them that so many people wanted a box with shiny new Necrons, after weeks of heavy advertising, although no one bought the old crap models.
not like some people waited ~10 years for new Warrior models before they wanted to start that army
hence it would mean that GW learned nothing from the fail of Warhammer Fantasy and was just lucky with their decisions
of course it is easier to think about that GW leanred from mistakes and knows what they are doing and of course having the launch box sold out in 30 minutes and people complaining about on the web is the best advertising for a new game you can get as it means the game is very popular and everyone is playing it (while having launch box in stock for 2 weeks leads to the impression that that it is not as popular as other games were before and all kind of conclusions etc)
so there is only a problem if the crowed that is pissed because it did not get the box stays away from 9th and keeps playing 8th or turn to another game and in addition is large enough to hurt future sales
This has literally nothing in common with Fantasy. The issues around Fantasy are as different to issues today as, well, two things that are completely different and not at all the same.
We have literally no idea how many were made or sold or are still out there waiting to be purchased. Anything else is just mental masturbation.
There is zero chance this hurts their future sales in any noticeable manner, because in reality it is a non-issue.
One big issue why Fantasy stopped selling well was that the factions were not updated in their core for a long time
It did not sell because no one wanted to buy 20 year old core units which were needed in masses to field some of the shiny new stuff
And some 40k factions have the same problem
just Marines get an update in the core each edition, no one is going to buy into basic Elder models if he must not use them
so not expecting Necrons to sell well after they got an update for their core units means they did not learn from Fantasy as this is what people are waiting for, that the whole army uses the same design and has up to date models for those units you must uses
and yes, for now GW can do nothing that will hurt their sales as everything that happens during pre-order is forgotten on launch day
I don’t think GW got the demand for Indomitus wrong , I think they got the price wrong.
£40 rulebook , 2 start collecting plus around £100 worth of characters. Add on the fact that there were still 3rd party discounts available (not as many as usual granted) , and that GW threw in some okay freebies with direct orders (those will be going for £30-50 cone release on eBay) and that many people haven’t been spending as much over the last few months and you have a massive demand at £125.
Guarantee that this morning GW is wishing they’d gone at £150-180.
TwilightSparkles wrote: I don’t think GW got the demand for Indomitus wrong , I think they got the price wrong.
£40 rulebook , 2 start collecting plus around £100 worth of characters. Add on the fact that there were still 3rd party discounts available (not as many as usual granted) , and that GW threw in some okay freebies with direct orders (those will be going for £30-50 cone release on eBay) and that many people haven’t been spending as much over the last few months and you have a massive demand at £125.
Guarantee that this morning GW is wishing they’d gone at £150-180.
It's in all regards, aside from GW calling it otherwise, a 9th edition starter set. No one needs more cheap dice and rulers.
And for a starter set, it has the expected price raise from 8th edition's Dark Imperium.
Stopped by the LGFS late Sunday, and they had an Indomitus box on display to encourage preorders, so I'd imagine many shops got at least one promo copy to spur sales - probably where the likes of the sprue pictures have come from.
I broke down and preordered a couple of the necron units I wanted, since this looks like it might be a scarce/scalped commodity for a while. However, I just realized I don't have the datasheets for these models - going to ask the seller if he can include them...
I'm not planning to go to 9th edition (the necron models I'm getting should work in 8th), but I do hope they release tiered starter sets like they did with 8th. A "Getting Started" magazine like the one for 8th would be nice as well (it had a single Primaris model, the base rules, a page or two of lore and some basic paint guidelines). I don't imagine we'll see that until August or later though - when did the Know no Fear and other starter box come out for 8th - it was a month or three after Dark Millennium, correct?
On Friday, Mob Rules received a document from Games Workshop with all the point values for the upcoming Chapter Approved Munitorium Field Manual, and Danny spent a large portion of Friday doing some data entry on a comparative spreadsheet to try and make sense of all these changes.
I think it is difficult to grasp exactly what all this means in entirety without having a lot more relevant information, like the Grand Tournament mission pack and the big FAQ’s coming. That being said, I to believe we can grasp some of the points changes that make sense and where some armies are at, speculatively.
Overall, you can see an overall trend of points increases to the tune of 17.5%. Some armies seem to be much higher than this, and others appear to be significantly lower. This data is presented with a few caveats:
1. There seems to be a trend in adding the weapon cost of units into the overall cost of a unit if it is the only unit utilizing that piece of weapon. For instance, Eldar tops the charts at an overall increase of nearly 47%, however, their weapon costs dropped an average of about 25%, meaning overall units only went up a little more than 20%. There are several units in the Necron and Tau armies that have a similar story.
2. Everything went up. You must remember this when looking at this information. Very few units went down or stayed the same, the vast majority of units went up in cost. So, in context, your unit or army did not get screwed over, it just is readjusted to a new norm.
3. Again, we do not have a full picture without having the new competitive mission set or FAQ’s, so maybe some of these changes coincide with additional utility or changes. This is extremely important to know.
4. My analysis does not take into account Forgeworld Units, as these are getting totally rewritten so I do not want to make assumptions about how new datasheets will change units. The good new is that they are definitely changing units, as the Scorpius went up 20 points and is also in the Heavy Support slot now, as is the Relic Leviathan, who also increased about 20-30 points depending on loadout.
Biggest Winners:
1. Thousand Sons
a. Thousand Sons are already a fairly popular faction in the game (at least for armies that soup Chaos), and the points drops did them all favors. Units like the Daemon Prince with wings stayed the same points (though a pair of Malefic Talons costs more points), and the core units of the army did not go up a massive amount (minus Cultists who cost 6 points now). Rubrics and Tzaangors only went up 2 and 1 point respectively, so they really came out much better. Scarab Occult only went up 4 points a model, another powerful unit in the TS arsenal and frequently sees play in pure armies. Ahriman on foot went up quite a bit, while the model on the disk only went up 4 points, making him a lot more viable comparatively. In addition, we might see more Exalted Sorcerers, as they both went down in points AND get free force weapons, so they are considerably cheaper. The Exalted Sorcerer on Disk went down a total of 18 points! I think we will see pure armies a lot more often, so I hope these all make Thousand Sons armies show up a lot more often.
2. Death Guard
a. Death Guard were poised to be one of the better armies in the game after their Psychic Awakening, and the points changes make this even more apparent. While some units went up quite a bit (Poxwalkers are now a very Nurglely 7 points), most of their units cost roughly the same or had very slight increases. Myphetic Blight Haulers become a much better choice, as they went down 5 points a model base cost, with only a slight hike of weapon options. I think this unit, in particular, combos up so well the new mission structure as they are a great bully unit and take a ton of abuse to die. Also, a great blocker for Cloud of Flies units. Spawn, which I feel like will be a staple in new Death Guard armies, went up only 3 points a model. This, combined with the new PA stratagem for giving Disgustingly Resilient, will make this unit a must take as well. Plague Marines and Possessed only went up around 2 and 3 points a model, so these units are still well poised to be excellent choices for the future. I am extremely excited to play against Death Guard more often as they are an amazingly dynamic army right now.
3. Custodes
a. Custodes are going to be a force to be reckoned with, as units like Allarus Terminators dropped one point per model overall, and Aqulion Terminators from Forgeworld dropped 4 points a model. Their overall cost increase is deceptive, as awfully expensive units like the Venerable Land Raider and the Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought went up (~45%), but their weapons are either much cheaper or free. In addition, the Sisters of Silence stayed roughly the same but their wargear costs are rolled into the unit profiles, grossly inflating their % change. If we account for these, the GW Custodes range only got about 8.5% more expensive. I think with the smaller board size it’s going to be much harder to hide from Custodes, and with their tricks to teleporting extremely close to the enemy and new rules from Psychic Awakening, they will truly be a serious force to contend with.
4. Honorable Mention: Knights?
a. Knights of both types are the some of the points change leaders. While I think the current mission-set is going to be hard for them, we will see if they get army specific victory conditions that are more suited for their playstyle. An increase in terrain they will have great difficulty crossing over will really limit their viability so while they are on the winners list we will see if that is maintained. Also, depending on which Knight Castellan points profile is correct, as a cheaper Knight Castellan on the table might limit armies again in the same way that it did before.
Biggest Losers:
1. Eldar
a. Eldar are in a very tough spot. Even if points changes are a little deceptive for this army, they still have some large obstacles to overcome. I feel like currently the mission structure does not provide a great outlet for Eldar, as their speed is of less value on a smaller board (potentially), and they need to be able to sit on objectives to claim them. Their durability in the past version of the rules revolved around massive penalties to hit, and that is not the case any longer with capped modifiers to hit. Things like the Night Spinner going up 25 points, Fire Prisms going up 30 points, and Shining Spears going up 15 points a model will all be large blows to this army, as these were commonly seen, competitive units. Flyers will be of lesser impact, though they both went up about 10%. Troops also went up quite a bit, with Guardian Defenders going up 2 points (platforms 7), Rangers up 3 points, and Storm Guardians also going up 3 points will put a tax on many of these units. I don’t think it’s a great time to be a Craftworlds player, but they do still have some very competitively pointed psykers and perhaps other units will come to the fore as the choice – Wave Serpents are extremely good in this version of the rules and I expect that to be the default choice in the future. Roomba game still strong.
2. Tau
a. Arguably one of the most frustrating armies to play against in the last iteration of the rules were Tau. This is due to their For the Greater Good ability and (mostly) Savior Protocols being so powerful. Well, that has been tempered somewhat. The biggest change for Tau is the change to Shield Drones. Shield Drones now costs 15 points a model, going up from just 10 points. This is obviously a huge change, and a backbone unit of the army has been nerfed extremely hard. Now, you can substitute these units for Gun Drones, but they do not have nearly the same durability that Shield Drones had. Many other Drone units went up between 25-50% as well. Tau also suffer from some similar issues to Eldar in the points spread, as they have many units that have had wargear costs added to profiles and then reduced to zero cost. The vehicles were really the units that did not change much, so maybe we will see more Hammerheads and Devilfish? I guess time will tell here. In addition to this, Tau really got hit hard with the changes to the fly rule, so I think it will be a much harder road for an army that was already very technical to play going into 9th edition.
3. Orks
a. Poor Orks. As Danny is a sometimes Ork player, the big funguses really have a soft spot in his heart. I think this army will just have to drastically change the way that they approach the table from the way that they currently play – i.e. the change from Hordes to a more mechanized approach. Things that are good – all the buggies only went up 10 points, and some have decreased weapon costs as well. Trukks went up one point, and things like Battlewagons and its ilk only got slight points rises. In addition, the HQ section (with one exception) only got slight points increases as well. Ork Boyz only got a 1 point price increase (Great!), and Meganobz only got an overall 4 point increase! Great! However, the building block of a lot of Ork lists, Grots, went up quite a lot – 5 points a model. This is extremely expensive for a unit that dies in droves and it is very unfortunate. One of the other big increases was the Shokk Attack Gun Big Mek – going from 80 points to a whopping 120 points – a 50% increase. This seems excessive, but this model (especially with the Relic SAG), was incredible usually one turn per game and picks up something really valuable. We will see how well Orks can shift into a more mechanized and faster army, but we at Mob Rules have faith that Gork and Mork will see us through.
Overall, there are so many changes, it is really difficult and time consuming to get into every nitty gritty interaction and change we have coming. It will be extremely exciting to see what the meta produces from this edition change and a total rebalancing of the rules.
There is also an issue of potential misprints or units not existing. For example, the Imperial Knights getting free Volcano Lances and Plasma Decimators on the Knight Castellan means he checks in at 639 points, which is significantly cheaper than his Chaos counterpart who pays an additional 110 points for his weapons. I believe this is a typo and needs to be addressed. Also, some unit entries are missing in codex units, like the Canoptek Spyder for example, or Forgeworld Units like the Chaplain Dreadnought, Kharybdis Assault Claw, and Zhadsnark da Rippa. Are these units gone from the game? Hard to say at this point. In addition, the lists for units for the Elysian and Renegades and Heretics lists are no longer in the index, so I assume these are gone from the game for the time being.
Both Jon and Danny are extremely excited for a new edition and the things it brings, while being fully aware we still are not seeing a complete big picture. We are MUCH closer now than ever though. Tell us what you think!
There is also an issue of potential misprints or units not existing. For example, the Imperial Knights getting free Volcano Lances and Plasma Decimators on the Knight Castellan means he checks in at 639 points, which is significantly cheaper than his Chaos counterpart who pays an additional 110 points for his weapons. I believe this is a typo and needs to be addressed. Also, some unit entries are missing in codex units, like the Canoptek Spyder for example, or Forgeworld Units like the Chaplain Dreadnought, Kharybdis Assault Claw, and Zhadsnark da Rippa. Are these units gone from the game? Hard to say at this point. In addition, the lists for units for the Elysian and Renegades and Heretics lists are no longer in the index, so I assume these are gone from the game for the time being.
There is also an issue of potential misprints or units not existing. For example, the Imperial Knights getting free Volcano Lances and Plasma Decimators on the Knight Castellan means he checks in at 639 points, which is significantly cheaper than his Chaos counterpart who pays an additional 110 points for his weapons. I believe this is a typo and needs to be addressed. Also, some unit entries are missing in codex units, like the Canoptek Spyder for example, or Forgeworld Units like the Chaplain Dreadnought, Kharybdis Assault Claw, and Zhadsnark da Rippa. Are these units gone from the game? Hard to say at this point. In addition, the lists for units for the Elysian and Renegades and Heretics lists are no longer in the index, so I assume these are gone from the game for the time being.
well, i guess it's time for me to write a last email to them, along the line off:
Dude, where are my rules?
Also the typo brought up is another feth you to the end user and accordingly to them just another exemple in what seems to be many, i allready get start of 8th flashbacks , and in what world is a grot worth 5/8'ths of a orkboy?
Can't say I expect castellens to se the table if the choas points are correct.
I'm glad that it looks like the supposed leaked 10+% points increases for knights was wrong as that would have made them dang hard to justify in 9th.
I notice Spacemarines especially the Indomitaous models are conspicuous by their absence.
Not surprised that shield drones got hit but it does sound like they might be over paying for still having overwatch etc if everything has gone up in points as crisis suits etc weren't great for their points anyway.
kodos wrote: One big issue why Fantasy stopped selling well was that the factions were not updated in their core for a long time
It did not sell because no one wanted to buy 20 year old core units which were needed in masses to field some of the shiny new stuff
And some 40k factions have the same problem
just Marines get an update in the core each edition, no one is going to buy into basic Elder models if he must not use them
so not expecting Necrons to sell well after they got an update for their core units means they did not learn from Fantasy as this is what people are waiting for, that the whole army uses the same design and has up to date models for those units you must uses
and yes, for now GW can do nothing that will hurt their sales as everything that happens during pre-order is forgotten on launch day
This is true on so many levels ! Non updated armies are also totally absent from GW's shelf, which makes it harder for them to be sighted by new players.
Damn nothing about CSM's points.
xttz wrote: Goonhammer review of the points values
DA got hammered somehow, and CSM units that I own and usually play all got up in points. I'll need to add some terminators to my list it seems (love those units but they sucked until now). I'm a bit saddened that they decided to make termi viable by effectively reducing their points relatively speaking to other units. They should have increase their tankiness but that's not what they did.
Latro_ wrote: Small vicotry a CSM is 1pt less than a tactical marine! and the same cost as a scout now haha
10k year old veterans are valued the same as a scout
Automatically Appended Next Post: lol guardsmen are 5pts cultists 6pts
i'm out
CsM aRe NoT a HoRdE faCtIoN" inbound which is not an argument in this case imo considering that PTS dictate what i should get...
Also the chaos horde faction just got yeeted aswell.
Latro_ wrote: Small vicotry a CSM is 1pt less than a tactical marine! and the same cost as a scout now haha 10k year old veterans are valued the same as a scout
Automatically Appended Next Post: lol guardsmen are 5pts cultists 6pts
i'm out
Yeah lore-wise it just doesn't make sense, and game wise it's very dubious. Guardmen are just better than cultist in almost every way.
Biggest increase is the Excorsist but it was already so good in 8th so I doubt it'll be a shelved unit.
DG did okay too. At least compared to CSM.
GD's saw price increase, DP's, other than Tzeentch, probably won't see tabletop with the unnecessary increase. Infantry didn't fair too badly with a 1pt hike (one of the lowest increases across all codeciies.
Unfortunately Daemons are going to be hard to win games with in 9th as well. The new EGD's are really good, at least the KoS and LoC but the exalted traits don't warrant a price increase.
I'm pretty happy with the pts changes to my 3 armies for the most part. Sisters got off easy.
the_scotsman wrote: Man.. what a time to have made my quarantine project making converted HQs and characters so I could field a full 2k grot army.
My poor grots are now the same price as a guardsman.
T2 S2 A1 WS5+ BS4+ Sv7+ Ld5 Assault 1 12" range
=
T3 S3 A1 WS4+ BS4+ Sv5+ Ld7 Rapid Fire 1 24" range with access to fething orders.
That's such a kick in the teeth. GW balanced this edition on fething crack.
And traits.
Don't forget the traits.
Heck i couldn0t even justify a Militia at the same pts as a Grot and militia were:
T3 S3 A1 WS 5+ BS 5+ SV 6+ and LDD6+2 at the same price as guardsmen.
This is just nonsense at this stage.
Predicted nonsense might i add.
Harsh, but grots were never taken to do damage. They were there to grab objectives and be cheap enough to take lots of firepower elsewhere. They were too good for their role in comparison to ork boyz before.
Guess the actions you can now use in scenarios for objectives is also taken into account for the price of the units. It's not just a question of what they can kill for their cost anymore.
Still, the comparison with guardsmen is unfortunate.
Latro_ wrote: Grots were taken, to fill out a batallion to unlock CP
They were on the chopping block at 3pts in 9th now you dont need them.
At 5pts, you may as well assume they are not a unit anymore.
I do tend to agree with the reasoning that horde units that are vital to an army (Guardsmen) got a bit of a discount over hordes that are not vital (Cultists). It's not like you can't have a cultist army, but you don't need them in the same way.
Edit: I mean I agree that is what they did, not neccessarily with the reasoning for it.
Again if someone could do a comparison I'd love that real much thx sorry for typos. Gonna keep doing xenos. Xenos homeboys copy paste these into tactics threads plsthx
the_scotsman wrote:Man.. what a time to have made my quarantine project making converted HQs and characters so I could field a full 2k grot army.
just play them as Guard now (or as Old-Marines just for the Memes)
TonyH122 wrote:Well, how else will they sell Chapter Approved at the end of the year?
As we get one now and a book needs to go to the printer 6 months in advance, even if there is one it won't have any big changes based actual playing the game
but anyway, expect the next Chapter Approved more like Somme 2021 or later
Sarouan wrote: Harsh, but grots were never taken to do damage. They were there to grab objectives and be cheap enough to take lots of firepower elsewhere. They were too good for their role in comparison to ork boyz before.
Guess the actions you can now use in scenarios for objectives is also taken into account for the price of the units. It's not just a question of what they can kill for their cost anymore.
Still, the comparison with guardsmen is unfortunate.
What actions a grot can do that a guardman cannot ?? Your post is filled with inconsistency. This increase in grot point is massive (+ 66 %) and dumb.
Yeah, it's insane to me that grots and guardsmen are the same points. You want to bump 'em to 4ppm? That's fine by me, actions and less punishable morale makes that an easier pill to swallow but 5ppm is just bonkers IMO. Grots and brims should've been 4ppm, cultists 5ppm and guardsmen 6ppm.
It largely doesn't matter given that we're getting a new codex, but Necrons make it out OK aside from a few outliers. At 18pts per model, Immortals are really pushing their luck. Lychguard going to 30 pts each also hurts me (i'm literally painting up 10 now), but given how important being able to sit on one point and not die is going to be, it might be fair enough.
DDAs got off lightly with a 20pt increase. Wraiths and Tomb Blades seem like big winners, while Destroyers and scarabs make it out OK too. Our fast Attack slot continues to be where all our good stuff lives.
HQs basically untouched once you account for most weapons becoming free.
Obelisk gets the 40pts price increase. It needed nerfing, so fair enough.
AdMech don't seem to have been hit too hard but it's too early to tell for me how hard we got changed compared to other armies. Unsurprisingly our Heavy Support like Onagers, Disintegrators and Kastelan Robots got increases, but the Ironstrider haven't seen much change. Rangers and Vanguards are both 9 pts now, which put them on even footing but is hard to swallow with 5 pts Guarsdmen.
My collection went from 2658 to 3002 pts in total.
Now to wait for the FAQs, and those we won't get any leaks I'm afraid. Oh well, my thirst for leaks has been satiated at least. I'm grateful to the reviewers !
If those mistakes are in the final printed book, then I figure just use the current points from CA19 and ignore GW until they print a new Codex for the faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, my most casual possible list, my "I am playing this for fun, we are going into this understanding you will win, I will lose, this is guaranteed, I am just looking for goofy moments" Went UP by nearly SEVEN HUNDRED POINTS. that's my all-grot army.
And my currently tournament-competitive, I will meet your meanest challenge, take on your ITC netlist, all comers bring it on Thousand Sons list went up by less than 100 points.
Good JOB, GW! I have never seen such horrible, awful balance all in one place before!!!
The Phazer wrote: Genestealer Cults seem to have been hit by the nerfbat pretty badly for no good reason.
Putting up Genestealer purestrains up to 17 seems nuts.
Well Purestrains was never a popular option and that trend continues. Maybe its damn time for GSC Genestealer set with rules worthy of that.
Also, Hand flamers went up 1 point so not that cheap anymore. Still worth it though.
I think overall GSC isn't to bad. stealers were not used anyway, if you wanted them you went with an actual Nid detachment. Abbarents got kicked while they were down but Acolytes only going up by 1 point is better then I feared.
Same with hand flamers going up 1. They are still very much worth it at 2 points.
The Phazer wrote: Genestealer Cults seem to have been hit by the nerfbat pretty badly for no good reason.
Putting up Genestealer purestrains up to 17 seems nuts.
Well Purestrains was never a popular option and that trend continues. Maybe its damn time for GSC Genestealer set with rules worthy of that.
Also, Hand flamers went up 1 point so not that cheap anymore. Still worth it though.
I think overall GSC isn't to bad. stealers were not used anyway, if you wanted them you went with an actual Nid detachment. Abbarents got kicked while they were down but Acolytes only going up by 1 point is better then I feared.
Same with hand flamers going up 1. They are still very much worth it at 2 points.
GSC is fine if you never used them for melee. point hikes somewhat offset by the fact that GSC benefit pretty well from move and fire heavy and to-hit debuff caps and stuff. They just won't work at all as some kind of "melee based ambush army" anymore. Won't have nearly enough CPs to make that function. Naked bikes for capping points, ridgerunners, neophytes with Mining Lasers in Goliaths, all those things work.
Looking over drukhari...there's just no rhyme or reason here. I genuinely don't get it at all.
Currently fairly useful models, like Ravagers, Razorwing Jetfighters, Voidravens, which are poised to benefit the most from the new ruleset: Small nerfs, 5-15% on average. There's some obvious stuff that went up like dissie ravagers, which can now carve themselves out of melee combat pretty good.
But then, there's units that will very obviously get penalized by the new rules, like Hellions (no more fall back and shoot, anti-synergy with their special fall back and charge ability) and Reavers (no more fall back and shoot+no more cover for bikes in general)...and those are the ones that get the big nerf hammers.
Just...why? What was the goal?Just to keep people playing the exact same armies that they're currently playing, but using few models? Why would you use a new edition launch to keep armies basically exactly the same, and make units people already don't use worse?
Gotta make sure nobody ever considers using the brand new Howling Banshee or Incubi rules! HIt them both with nerfs!
It is worth saying that we don't have the full picture. THe FAQ may make changes that explain things. I fully expect the GC one to be quite sweeping in its changes...
There will still be loads of odd point costs, that's for sure. The formulaic nature of some of the tweaking gives that away.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The grot & brimstone horrors thing is pant-on-head stupid or what?
Why are those clearly inferior model pointed the same as a guardsman?
Lots of these point changes seem to have been done with a snapshot of 40k of almost a year ago when these units were good and other units weren’t as good. Not taking into account the effects of prior FAQs and PA books. Grots were decent detachment fillers but didn’t do any lifting. The last PA book started pushing orks toward more mech even before these edition changes or point nerfs. Almost as of the rules team wasn’t looking at point changes as a whole. Which is why grots ate the same cost as guard... maybe if we are lucky grots can benefit from ork clan rules now but that’s unlikely
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The grot & brimstone horrors thing is pant-on-head stupid or what?
Why are those clearly inferior model pointed the same as a guardsman?
Presumably some models are available at a discount because they're narratively common or make up the bulk of the army; and similarly other units pay a premium to ensure relative scarcity.
Cultists are more expensive than guardsmen because otherwise you don't see Chaos Space Marine infantry in Heretic Astartes armies – and in turn the CSM infantry get a minor discount in comparison with Imperial Space Marines.
Building armies that are at odds with GW's narrative is possible, but you'll pay a premium for it.
Thescotsman's all-grot army is a good example. It's not how ork armies appear in the fiction/background, so there's an in-game incentive against it.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The grot & brimstone horrors thing is pant-on-head stupid or what?
Why are those clearly inferior model pointed the same as a guardsman?
Basically what GW have done is this:
Do you have a base and a stats line?
Yes
5pts minimum
but?!... t2 and um 12" gun an...
5pts minimum, GTFO
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The grot & brimstone horrors thing is pant-on-head stupid or what?
Why are those clearly inferior model pointed the same as a guardsman?
Basically what GW have done is this:
Do you have a base and a stats line?
Yes
5pts minimum
but?!... t2 and um 12" gun an...
5pts minimum, GTFO
It's a good thing they raised points so they can be more granular!
Keep in mind that horrors create some interesting interactions with the new objective actions, unless the new horrors don't add to the unit anymore.
They're really ugly objective holders and actually getting them to stop earning CP through actions is actually a struggle when the unit is just adding more models as they die.
That and the analysis may be right and most of the point values are formulaic with an absolute floor of 5.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The grot & brimstone horrors thing is pant-on-head stupid or what?
Why are those clearly inferior model pointed the same as a guardsman?
Gw sold enough of them. Buy other stuff. Message extra clear to make it obvious enough
The Necrons 
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