I seem to be saying this more and more often these days, but this is bloody disgraceful and makes me regret being a white male. Oh well, adds more population to the ignore list I suppose. Glad Prodos aren't giving in to the "helpful" fan criticism.

If being a fan and telling your opinion is bad then I will speak no more in this thread.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Aren't there enough model makers out there catering to your interests? Why must every female model ever produced be a cheesecake pinup with huge tits and sexy outfit?

I for one hope Prodos doesn't cave in to these ridiculous demands and keeps her looking "mannish"...a woman in a combat role without a huge rack? Perish the fething thought.

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
And with modern miniature modeling with 3D modeling and printing and whatnot it's possible to make those subtle changes that would make a miniature stand out as a woman or a man in cases where this would otherwise be hard to tell.

I'm surprised other people are apparently so damn "confused" about her gender. I could tell just from looking at the render that she's female, if I didn't already know beforehand. Her face (if that's "mannish" then you haven't really seen that many female models I take it, looks a lot better than a lot of them I've seen, especially compared to what little GW has on offer), hairstyle, the shape of her body and her pose all convey well enough that she's female. Honestly the ass alone should fething give it away.

I just want to be clear about this one, I believe Angelica totally rocks and to me there is no question it's a women from looking at the render. What I meant with what you quoited above Sidstyler is that the argumen that "to make a realistically porportioned woman in full battle gear at 28-30 mm scale is wasted energy since it's not going to look like a woman anyway" isn't valid (now more than ever). Well, I'd say we now, more than ever, got the tools and skills to do "moderately" proportioned women in full battle gear that definitely looks looks like a woman, which I believe Angela is a good proof of but I believe you can and should go even further in some cases.

The problem is that there are so few woman miniatures so those few that are made gets an disproportional amount of attention especially if they break the current norm or hegemony in the TT-community. I'd say there are seldom so much outrage about male miniatures that differs from the norm than when a female miniature does so.

 Capamaru wrote:
Surprise surprise she is wearing a T shirt and a vest no body armor.

Some women just have small breasts. I imagine to be a soldier one would have to be in pretty good shape, too, so it's possible that she might just have small breasts on account of being athletic, since breasts are mostly fat.

So if a woman has small breasts does that just not "count" or what? I don't understand why it's a problem in this context, or why it would be so important for you to be able to tell what gender the tiny soldiermans are from 4 feet away anyway since it has no bearing on gameplay whatsoever. Her outfit is good enough to distinguish her as a character of importance from the rest of the faceless, nameless grunts, if that's an issue.

 Capamaru wrote:

Some well defined armor in the chest area with make her look more female.

I'm starting to think that's all it takes to make a model "female" anymore, a couple of giant anvils grafted to a breastplate. If you can't tell she's female from looking at everything else but her chest then god damn, I just don't know what else to say. =\

 Capamaru wrote:

I don't suggest making her a super sexified bimbo of some short but adding some visual content that will make it able to clearly identify her as a woman from 4 feet away. Long hair and some short of breast armor like people suggested would be nice.

I already asked why it's important to know if she's female or not from 4 feet away, when gender isn't relevant to gameplay, but I have to ask what is wrong with her current hairstyle? That looks like a woman's haircut to me. Or do all feminine hairstyles have to be shoulder-length or longer, kinda like how all "real" women don't have boobs smaller than double-D's? =|

 Capamaru wrote:
If being a fan and telling your opinion is bad then I will speak no more in this thread.

I didn't say it was bad, I just...don't really understand it much, myself. You're free to think and do whatever you want, if this is really such an issue that it puts you off the army then so be it. But much like how you're allowed to your opinion, I'm allowed to my opinion that you're being pretty damn silly to swear off an army because the one character model we've seen for them so far was a small-breasted, fully-clothed female.

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Aren't there enough model makers out there catering to your interests? Why must every female model ever produced be a cheesecake pinup with huge tits and sexy outfit?

I for one hope Prodos doesn't cave in to these ridiculous demands and keeps her looking "mannish"...a woman in a combat role without a huge rack? Perish the fething thought.

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
And with modern miniature modeling with 3D modeling and printing and whatnot it's possible to make those subtle changes that would make a miniature stand out as a woman or a man in cases where this would otherwise be hard to tell.

I'm surprised other people are apparently so damn "confused" about her gender. I could tell just from looking at the render that she's female, if I didn't already know beforehand. Her face (if that's "mannish" then you haven't really seen that many female models I take it, looks a lot better than a lot of them I've seen, especially compared to what little GW has on offer), hairstyle, the shape of her body and her pose all convey well enough that she's female. Honestly the ass alone should fething give it away.

I just want to be clear about this one, I believe Angelica totally rocks and to me there is no question it's a women from looking at the render. What I meant with what you quoited above Sidstyler is that the argumen that "to make a realistically porportioned woman in full battle gear at 28-30 mm scale is wasted energy since it's not going to look like a woman anyway" isn't valid (now more than ever). Well, I'd say we now, more than ever, got the tools and skills to do "moderately" proportioned women in full battle gear that definitely looks looks like a woman, which I believe Angela is a good proof of but I believe you can and should go even further in some cases.

The problem is that there are so few woman miniatures so those few that are made gets an disproportional amount of attention especially if they break the current norm or hegemony in the TT-community. I'd say there are seldom so much outrage about male miniatures that differs from the norm than when a female miniature does so.

As it was already pointed out, she technically isn't in "full-battle gear", but yeah, the point still stands I think.

Also, as it was pointed out earlier, I too think the game would allow for "those" kind of female models in addition to ones like Angelika, so really all this arguing is kinda stupid anyway because it doesn't have to be one or the other.

EDIT: Also I think the quotes in my post are kinda fethed up, lol. My apologies but I'm not going back and fixing that okay fine I did.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Taarnak wrote:
Some well defined armor in the chest area with make her look more female.

I'm starting to think that's all it takes to make a model "female" anymore, a couple of giant anvils grafted to a breastplate. If you can't tell she's female from looking at everything else but her chest then god damn, I just don't know what else to say. =\

Hahaha! Word!

Ooh, here's something fun that this thread reminded me about. I've got this girl on my watch list on deviantArt (I don't do the art thing very well but if I ever feel like drawing again this seemed like it would come in handy), and she uploads nothing but pictures that people can use as references for drawing, etc. I picked the pack with her doing gun poses since it seemed the most relevant.

http://senshistock.deviantart.com/gallery/573222 (She's covered up but potentially NSFW anyway, just so I don't get chewed)

Put her in Angelika's outfit and I imagine she wouldn't look too different, her chest would look about the same but you'd probably see a little bit of her hips and butt, like in the render. Sorry, I really don't want to offend anyone here but the whole "She's too mannish, needs bigger knockers!" thing just comes off as being extremely sexist and ignorant. In my opinion Angelika has the body type that a female soldier would have, and if Prodos changes that to appease the few people who have a problem with this then I'll be extremely disappointed. Might still get the Bauhaus starter when it hits store shelves later on and just trade/sell Angelika for another model I can use in her stead.

Yeah, I'll agree that she isn't perfectly realistic, or else she'd be wearing full armor like the hussars. That said I still like what they did with the design and it's more realistic than most female models usually are regardless.

I'd like to see some realistic female hussars, let's break the hegemony! It won't hurt anyone, quite the contrary I'd say.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Yeah, I'll agree that she isn't perfectly realistic, or else she'd be wearing full armor like the hussars. That said I still like what they did with the design and it's more realistic than most female models usually are regardless.

I'm actually liking the stylistic similarities she share with the re-designed rangers. Smaller shoulder pad, under-suit is a bit more padded (including the pants) and she even conforms to some of the notes on the rangers about them often customizing or removing bits of armour to keep their operational weight down. I'm interested to know her history. The neurolash means it is better than even odds that she is part of the Order of Fear (especially considering that she is a Templar, according to the notes on her helmet).

If so, then I can't wait to see her painted up in jet black armour with the traditional iron skull-mask of that particular order.

They definitely dug deep in the Bauhaus sourcebook when coming up with the style guide for Bauhaus. Because there is a lot of consistency in there, and a lot of depth. Even the jacket addition conforms to some of the descriptions in the Mutant Chronicles sourcebook (one being that Templars tend to dress a bit more exotically than other units in the field because they are more a knightly order than a standard military unit).

The more I dig, the more nods I see in the designs and the more I love them.

Back on topic.

Can i see more pretty pictures of sexy new minis please?

Out if curiosity is the initial release sticking to character, squads, big things or is there likely to be jump infantry or cavalry/bike analogs as well?

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
I'd like to see some realistic female hussars, let's break the hegemony! It won't hurt anyone, quite the contrary I'd say.

Well take a hussar as depicted on the concept art, do not remove the helmet, there you go realistic female hussar.

Hey, I've got an idea! Let's talk about Warzone instead.

Prodos, since you and the MC RPG guys are cooperating to at least some extent, are there plans to make the RPG and WZ compatible? 1st ed had rules for converting your characters from the RPG to Warzone, for instance.

brynolf wrote:
Hey, I've got an idea! Let's talk about Warzone instead.

Prodos, since you and the MC RPG guys are cooperating to at least some extent, are there plans to make the RPG and WZ compatible? 1st ed had rules for converting your characters from the RPG to Warzone, for instance.

Well, that would be a great thing, if possible. At least it could result in some great fun in non-tournament games.

Honestly lets go back to WZ, I do not see why Angelica is not realistically armored, she is not a hussar, she is an officer, she wears the same breast plate and shinguard with the rest of the troops the "ornamental" jacket is over the armour.

I thought she was just wearing a fancy jacket and regular pants, lol.

Edit: The fellow below has spoken!

Several off topic posts deleted. If you wish to discuss topics other than this kickstarter then this thread is not the place for it.
thanks.

I got a chance to go through some old Chronicle magazines last night (the magazine for Chronopia and Warzone). I have to say, some of the older Capitol stuff is fantastic (in retrospect, it'd be rubbish if it came out today).

If we hit that threshhold, I may have to go for Capitol. Also, some of the old Red Devil Mishima models are great.

The Vulkan has definitely taken a huge leap forward.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
I got a chance to go through some old Chronicle magazines last night (the magazine for Chronopia and Warzone). I have to say, some of the older Capitol stuff is fantastic (in retrospect, it'd be rubbish if it came out today).

If we hit that threshhold, I may have to go for Capitol. Also, some of the old Red Devil Mishima models are great.

The Vulkan has definitely taken a huge leap forward.

Crimson Devil not Red Devil

 Capamaru wrote:

Surprise surprise she is wearing a T shirt and a vest no body armor.

It looks like body armor to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Almost 50k guys. I gotta admit I was a little tepid on this (even though I have some fond memories of playing Warzone1 back in the mid 90's) but as the campaign has gone on, I've gotten more into it. To the tune of a 249 pledge.

I believe Capitol will be fantastic! They got some great ingredients for being some really cewl, kickass sci-fi Americans like the colonial marines from Aliens and so many others! I'd like to see how the new banshees will look like!

Which will the next squads be do you believe? Or which would you rather see?

The empty hand option is really growing on me. While I think the pistol one is likely what I'm going to go for.

Also, a question for those who know the universe really well. I've just started rereading my 1st edition stuff and my RPG stuff after getting it out of storage. Maybe it'll be a fun brainstorming session:

What reason does faction A have to fight faction B? We all know why Dark Legion is involved with fighting everyone else-- they're supernatural techno-horror guys who want to rule or destroy everything. But what about the other factions? Pick two factions and tell why you think they should meet on the field of battle and actually kill eachother's operatives.

My go:

Brotherhood vs Cybertronic - The brotherhood comes to believe they are corrupted by the same forces behind the Dark Legion

Sea lions feels like the most obvious "standard" Capitol unit. I'd put my money on them ending up in the starter set. The only big Capitol stuff I can think of is the Orca battlesuit. It was the ugliest stuff Heartbreaker ever made, so there is certain room for improvement there. Hopefully Prodos will continue using "non special characters" in the starters for the corps. There should be incentive for buying several boxes, and ending up with five Mitch Hunters is not that great of a selling point, IMO.

I think Free Marines wold be the most iconic Capitol Force and i hope it will be in the starter

@agustin - Well, I suppose any faction could fight the other over natural resources or the like except for the brotherhood who would fight anyone they though were heretics. That's the shorthand version as I see it anyhow. I guess any commander could come under the influence by the darkness and as an marionette be used to attack another faction.

Any of the corporations would fight each other for any reason to increase shareholder dividends, don'tcha think?

Yeah, and a commander or faction could, by not complying to the Space Popes latest rant, find themselves in disfavour of the brotherhood who'd have other factions attack them or other factions could just use it as an excuse to attack the disfavoured factiont.

There is plenty of fluff in the books about the corporations fighting to take things like oil wells and other resources. Also remember these are umbrella corporations with many smaller corporations. I seam to remember a story where A corp attacked B corp subsidiary just to drive the market price of of the subsidiary down, then they bought them out in a hostile takeover because the stock was cheap.

That's the thing with the corporations, they are completely greedy. They will sabotage each other while fighting the dark symmetry, just to make their stock go down. That's why the Brotherhood and the Cartel are so important. Humanity was almost lost because the Corporations were actively interfering with each other to the point that the dark symmetry almost won.

5:58 AM - As the sun rises, Capitol patrol spots glinting object on nearby asphalt patch in front of Mishima "Pad-Mart" shoulder armor convenience store.
5:59 AM - Capitol patrol spotter believes object is 25-cent coin, patrol radios to HQ and received confirmation to investigate.
6:01 AM - In a flurry of activity, Capitol corporate executives issue the go-ahead to capture and retrieve the 25 cents. 25 cents will boost net-profit; expenditure of resources on retrieval mission already allocated in quarterly budget as "justifiable costs".
6:02 AM Capitol patrol moves behind cover of Bauhaus hybrid Diesel/Horse cars parked in Pad-Mart lot.
6:03 AM Imperial strike force, having intercepted the Capitol communications, emerges from behind nearby Brotherhood Port-a-Pray to ambush the Capitols and retrieve the loose change for themselves...

the stage is set for
WARZONE!!
epic low-tech far-future conflicts between faceless soldiers fighting corporate proxy-wars for marginal increases in shareholder dividends

The amount of hyperbole, sensationalism, and grandstanding in the past few pages is amusing.

There are lots and lots of reasons for conflict set out in the old fluff. I suggest visiting the mutantpedia site. Wealth of info there.

I concur that the Free Marines are Capitol's signature force.

I'll dig through in a bit, but maybe someone can sum up for me: How is the card mechanic in this game? Is it a collectible aspect? It kinda seems so and that worries me a bit.

~Eric

It's not going to be collectible, don't worry. We'll get all the cards needed in the model boxes.

brynolf wrote:
It's not going to be collectible, don't worry. We'll get all the cards needed in the model boxes.

Cool. I wasn't positive. Thanks.

~Eric

They hit the 50,000GBP mark!

Is there some meaning to the horse tail whip from the old game or RPG?

 warboss wrote:
Is there some meaning to the horse tail whip from the old game or RPG?

Not really, but it looks rather cool IMO. Probably not intended as a weapon, but rather as a personality schtick.

It's a neurolash, a torture device and weapon favoured by the Order of Fear, one of the Templar orders of Bauhaus. It actually ignores armour (according to the RPG) and attacks the nervous system directly. Nasty little piece of work.

Just noticed that the Cuirassier renders aren't actually gripping the triggers on their guns, call me a sperglord if you like but that really grates me

Shadow Walker wrote:

 gunslingerpro wrote:
I got a chance to go through some old Chronicle magazines last night (the magazine for Chronopia and Warzone). I have to say, some of the older Capitol stuff is fantastic (in retrospect, it'd be rubbish if it came out today).

If we hit that threshhold, I may have to go for Capitol. Also, some of the old Red Devil Mishima models are great.

The Vulkan has definitely taken a huge leap forward.

Crimson Devil not Red Devil

Thank you. I knew the general idea

The Laughing Man wrote:
Just noticed that the Cuirassier renders aren't actually gripping the triggers on their guns, call me a sperglord if you like but that really grates me

Patroling with your finger on the trigger leads to unwanted friendly fire incidents, keep it on the frame until you're just about to fire, so since none seem to be in a 'shooting right now' pose it they look fine to me

The Laughing Man wrote:
Just noticed that the Cuirassier renders aren't actually gripping the triggers on their guns, call me a sperglord if you like but that really grates me

Good! Proper trigger discipline is rarely represented accurately! You only put your finger on the trigger when you are firing a round. Otherwise your finger stays off your trigger and your barrel pointed towards the ground.

brynolf wrote:
It's not going to be collectible, don't worry. We'll get all the cards needed in the model boxes.

But will the cards be available separately (retail purchase or download)?

As I already own two WarZone armies, I'd like to use them, but that is with the intention of buying a couple of new (different) armies as well. There's five more guys in my gaming group in pretty much the same situation. Plus three more that have never played. If the cards are available without buying new units, then our group will be looking at building 3-8 new armies.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

The Laughing Man wrote:
Just noticed that the Cuirassier renders aren't actually gripping the triggers on their guns, call me a sperglord if you like but that really grates me

Patroling with your finger on the trigger leads to unwanted friendly fire incidents, keep it on the frame until you're just about to fire, so since none seem to be in a 'shooting right now' pose it they look fine to me

Trigger discipline would involve having your finger near enough to the trigger to be able to snap off a shot while eliminating the possibility for an accidental discharge, these guys are holding their guns like they are super soakers.

Err, those guys are effing robots! Finger discipline should be the least of their problems, methinks.

I concur that the Free Marines are Capitol's signature force.

I'd agree with that. The basic capitol soldiers are their heavy and light infantry, those are what should probably come in the starter. Maybe a Purple Shark 1or 2 seater or the ugly ass walker would be the big guy, and of course some kind of captain or commander.

Capitol has so many elite forces. I think Free marines or Banshees should be the first of those released.

I'll open the betting right now and say the new Bauhaus unit will be Etoiles Mortants.

Not wishlisting aaaaaaaaat all.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I'll open the betting right now and say the new Bauhaus unit will be Etoiles Mortants.

Not wishlisting aaaaaaaaat all.

The Etoiles and the Rangers were definitely the two main special forces of Bauhaus. Then you had, Blitzers, Dragoons, and Jaegers. Third string would be jungle fighters, mounted hussars and the rest. I used a lot of their gun emplacements actually.

Cybertronic doesn't need their fingers on the triggers, they fire through wireless smartgunlinks....

As for new units, my guess:
- Ducal Militia
- People's Volunteers
- Elite Troopers
- Centurians

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Third string would be jungle fighters

Ah, the 90's, when rotary shotguns were the s@!t

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I'll open the betting right now and say the new Bauhaus unit will be Etoiles Mortants.

Not wishlisting aaaaaaaaat all.

I hope you didn't take too many bets!!



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

What does "special price" mean? Do we get the stuff £1 cheaper during the KS? Or will the final RRP go down by £1?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and like I said: All-female Etoiles Mortants is dumb. Please don't do it

brynolf wrote:
What does "special price" mean? Do we get the stuff £1 cheaper during the KS? Or will the final RRP go down by £1?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and like I said: All-female Etoiles Mortants is dumb. Please don't do it

The Kickstarter price will be for example £X and the RRP after Kickstarter will be £X.99

Regarding the new units, exactly almost everything I had supposed, almost... With exception of the Sacred Warriors... Sacred Warriors? no one cares about these guys. Clearly a Second Directorate list was shaping up here: Mortificators, Blessed Vestal Laura,... It was a given the Valkyries were the next Brotherhood unit!

And here I thought we're going to see Dragoons for Bauhaus.

Hi 3rd post is a charm or actually a curse in this case. Feel kinda stupid in my previous posts defending this project. Seems well not seems it actually is , all pledgers of dark legion and above receive free character mini EXCEPT UK Backers . Because we are in UK and get free shipping we don't qualify for stretch goal miniature freebies at this point. Be interesting if US based kick starters started introducing this policy. Bought this up in the kick starter page posts and to be fair threatened to pull my pledge at brotherhood level £333.00 gbp made on day one of kick starter and was basically told by prodos
to f**k off and do what the he'll I like. Check the posts mine are Under Philip Ward, maybe I was to harsh would be interested in the feedback , I can't be the only UK backer a little peeved at this .

Cheers

Phil

Something to look forward to in the future I suppose. Did you end up sending concepts for the Dragoons as well? I'd love to know which style you went with (they have had different descriptions between the RPGS, 1st Edition and 2nd Edition after all). They have ranged from lightly armed tankers, to ironclad behemoths wielding the best weapons Bauhausncan buy, to slightly better versions of Hussar. The heavily armed 1st Edition version was my favourite (along with the Wolfhead Dragoons of UWZ) and I'd love to see good looking sculpts of them with a proper kampfkanone.

Edit - DL and above aren't really getting it for free. That is basically the level that Prodos has decided will unlock subsidized shipping for International buyers (a very common concept, buy $X and get free/reduced shipping). In this case their bonus is that they get a £7 mini for £12 (or to put it another way, they are only paying £5 on shipping).

Sorry mate, but any outrage over this is kind of silly. UK is already getting free shipping, this is just Prodos setting a subsidized shipping level for international backers so that we can opt to pay £5 for shipping and a single character is a mandatory inclusion. If you want the character your cost to grab it is already cheaper than the "free" international price.

Etolies makes sence as the Rangers and Etolies were usually the features special forces of Bauhaus. I don't get the Sacred Warriors though. I'll have to brush up on my brotherhood, but it seams like they had other elites troopers that were better.

Yeah! new design to Praetorian Stalkers!

phil751 wrote:
Hi 3rd post is a charm or actually a curse in this case. Feel kinda stupid in my previous posts defending this project. Seems well not seems it actually is , all pledgers of dark legion and above receive free character mini EXCEPT UK Backers . Because we are in UK and get free shipping we don't qualify for stretch goal miniature freebies at this point. Be interesting if US based kick starters started introducing this policy. Bought this up in the kick starter page posts and to be fair threatened to pull my pledge at brotherhood level £333.00 gbp made on day one of kick starter and was basically told by prodos
to f**k off and do what the he'll I like. Check the posts mine are Under Philip Ward, maybe I was to harsh would be interested in the feedback , I can't be the only UK backer a little peeved at this .

Cheers

Phil

If that's true that is pretty crappy for UK backers. Maybe I'm not seeing it, but I didn't see where anybody gets free character mini.

Ronin please no offense but giive me one example where that is the case. What US based company has given a freebie to their international customers at the exclusion of their domestic customers. Come on that just does not happen .

phil751 wrote:
Ronin please no offense but giive me one example where that is the case. What US based company has given a freebie to their international customers at the exclusion of their domestic customers. Come on that just does not happen .

Hmm this is sadly true

Most KS tend to favor their country of origin. Its mostly unavoidable with the crazy shenanigans with international shipping, so while compensation for that seems fair it might be better if stretch goals applied to everyone

phil751 wrote:
Hi 3rd post is a charm or actually a curse in this case. Feel kinda stupid in my previous posts defending this project. Seems well not seems it actually is , all pledgers of dark legion and above receive free character mini EXCEPT UK Backers . Because we are in UK and get free shipping we don't qualify for stretch goal miniature freebies at this point. Be interesting if US based kick starters started introducing this policy. Bought this up in the kick starter page posts and to be fair threatened to pull my pledge at brotherhood level £333.00 gbp made on day one of kick starter and was basically told by prodos
to f**k off and do what the he'll I like. Check the posts mine are Under Philip Ward, maybe I was to harsh would be interested in the feedback , I can't be the only UK backer a little peeved at this .

Cheers

Phil

Not impressed by this at all. I see little incentive to actually become a backer.

Its all very well simply saying to "52 days to go" but if you actively put of people backing you then perhaps there won't be much to show when those 52 days are up.

@phil751 sounds very bizarre I'll have to check it out

About shipping, and I know this isn't helpful much, but I can guarantee that if a Canadian kickstarter of this size and ambition were put out, it would never offer free Canadian shipping. Shipping inside Canada is almost as bad as shipping from outside Canada.

Just saying...

Étoiles? I'm on board.

Although I did like to take Dragoons in my force, even over Rangers because of the Kampfkanone (those would hold almost any objective because of the nice weight of fire they could bring about) but I always, always fielded a unit of the girls.

@Count Zero: In the fluff it makes sense that it's only women. They are only recruited because they cannot bear children (social commentary aside) and thus devote their lives to actively defending their Megacorp. It's super regressive and doesn't show the value of women in the workplace... but it is fluffy.

I have observed the conversation and I think its more of a storm in a teacup, I feel international order customers of dark legion and below should be more frustrated for not getting the "P&P sweetener" since they pay more per box for shipping than the dark legion and above.

For the record they said if you live in the UK, sure pay 12 pounds P&P to get a 7 pounds miniature free.

I din't find it to be that insulting.

And if they make them as realistic as the Angelika sculpt, I'll be even more won over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prodos: If I may make just a bit of constructive criticism regarding the Vulkan suit? Could we have a bit of hydraulics going toward the back of the foot? It would make sense, and decrease the "fuzzy slippers" look of the feet to boot.

JUst a suggestions.

phil751 wrote:Hi 3rd post is a charm or actually a curse in this case. Feel kinda stupid in my previous posts defending this project. Seems well not seems it actually is , all pledgers of dark legion and above receive free character mini EXCEPT UK Backers . Because we are in UK and get free shipping we don't qualify for stretch goal miniature freebies at this point. Be interesting if US based kick starters started introducing this policy. Bought this up in the kick starter page posts and to be fair threatened to pull my pledge at brotherhood level £333.00 gbp made on day one of kick starter and was basically told by prodos
to f**k off and do what the he'll I like. Check the posts mine are Under Philip Ward, maybe I was to harsh would be interested in the feedback , I can't be the only UK backer a little peeved at this .

Cheers

Phil

Palindrome wrote:

phil751 wrote:
Hi 3rd post is a charm or actually a curse in this case. Feel kinda stupid in my previous posts defending this project. Seems well not seems it actually is , all pledgers of dark legion and above receive free character mini EXCEPT UK Backers . Because we are in UK and get free shipping we don't qualify for stretch goal miniature freebies at this point. Be interesting if US based kick starters started introducing this policy. Bought this up in the kick starter page posts and to be fair threatened to pull my pledge at brotherhood level £333.00 gbp made on day one of kick starter and was basically told by prodos
to f**k off and do what the he'll I like. Check the posts mine are Under Philip Ward, maybe I was to harsh would be interested in the feedback , I can't be the only UK backer a little peeved at this .

Cheers

Phil

Not impressed by this at all. I see little incentive to actually become a backer.

Its all very well simply saying to "52 days to go" but if you actively put of people backing you then perhaps there won't be much to show when those 52 days are up.

Wow, talk about acting like entitled children. If you are in the UK and you are a backer you don't have to pay the shipping or additional taxes that international buyers will have to.

And lets not forget the sad fact that if the game doesn't make it in America it won't make it, unfortunately the same can't be said for american games in the UK. A single free miniature to encourage international buyers to spend big and invest in a new product is a good thing and not worth having such a huge whinge about.

As for seeing little incentive to back the project, well, that's entirely subjective but if helping a project off the ground while also getting it sooner, cheaper, and with exclusive bonuses isn't incentive while one single free miniature is then that's your pejorative.

If you don't want to back it then don't, Prodos are more than justified in telling you this when you attempt to generate drama in their KS comments.

@ uncle bad touch to be honest I initially I thought it must be some language mix up but it's definitely true UK backers DO NOT receive the free mini at 50k stretch goal level it is only for the rest of the world. brilliant marketing I for one will definitely be talking about the merits of this project at my gaming club , just praying that goa will have a more realistic kick starter mkii in the near future. I was really excited to see mc back again after over 25 years in this hobby but that excitement is taking a sharp decline. If this issue is not rectified within the next 48 hours I. Will pull my pledge and hope a lot of other backers will do the same same . YOU CANNOT DISCRIMINATE ON GEOGRAPHY . If you are not in the country of origin you expect to pay a reasonable/ sensible postal contribution As is fair , you don't get perks at the expense of others generally.

Cheers

Phil

Phil, it's not like you suddenly gained less than before. If you thought it was worth backing before this decision, then nothing has changed since.

It's merely compensating for the higher shipping (that in a sense IS geographic discrimination), that's all!

The Laughing Man wrote:

Wow, talk about acting like entitled children

There should be an update to Godwin's law; as soon as someone mentions 'entitlement' the discussion is lost, or more likley rendered meaningless.

I already see little value in this KS and arbitrary restrictions based upon my postal address are not going to make me more likely to back this, quite the reverse.

phil751 wrote:
@ uncle bad touch to be honest I initially I thought it must be some language mix up but it's definitely true UK backers DO NOT receive the free mini at 50k stretch goal level it is only for the rest of the world. brilliant marketing I for one will definitely be talking about the merits of this project at my gaming club , just praying that goa will have a more realistic kick starter mkii in the near future. I was really excited to see mc back again after over 25 years in this hobby but that excitement is taking a sharp decline. If this issue is not rectified within the next 48 hours I. Will pull my pledge and hope a lot of other backers will do the same same . YOU CANNOT DISCRIMINATE ON GEOGRAPHY . If you are not in the country of origin you expect to pay a reasonable/ sensible postal contribution As is fair , you don't get perks at the expense of others generally.

Cheers

Phil

what you are talking about? look at US based KS... they got free shipping.... you don't, so would you call this DISCRIMINATE ON GEOGRAPHY ? Man is late, maybe time to go to bed, instead flaming about £7...

These designs are looking great.

phil751 wrote:
YOU CANNOT DISCRIMINATE ON GEOGRAPHY .

Ok then, pay P&P like the rest of us and get a 7 pound miniature free, if you chose dark legion pledge or higher.

Palindrome wrote:

The Laughing Man wrote:

Wow, talk about acting like entitled children

There should be an update to Godwin's law; as soon as someone mentions 'entitlement' the discussion is lost, or more likley rendered meaningless.

I already see little value in this KS and arbitrary restrictions based upon my postal address are not going to make me more likely to back this, quite the reverse.

Like I said, don't back it.

You may as well also amend Godwin's law to include people suggesting amendment's to Godwin's law. It's steadily reaching the point that it's used to dismiss reasonable arguments or statements instead of chastising people for being flippant about Nazis and the holocaust.

Man people saying to other people to not back it...

This really is turning into GoA, with actual miniatures

And a successful funding

It really doesn't matter what you think, excluding a country of origin from a stretch goal perk no matter how much they have invested is not a smart idea. Personally if I was running a project I would offer near enough worldwide free shipping and cost that into the kick starter pledges games and gear brushes have managed it to brilliant effect for such a small project. Excluding nations Will Piss people off, I was a huge fan of mc past and present until today when I quite politely pointed out the potential discrimination and was politely told by prodos to fxxk off lol. He felt a little differently when I was defending the project to warboss and others and check my previous posts. Think. I was even described as a sock puppet lol.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
It's a neurolash, a torture device and weapon favoured by the Order of Fear, one of the Templar orders of Bauhaus. It actually ignores armour (according to the RPG) and attacks the nervous system directly. Nasty little piece of work.

Ah thanks. I think it might be a good idea to include a variant hand option that is a little less dom similar to how the IG Cadian command squad can be built with or without a pimp cane. Nice model otherwise though.

You are correct, it was not a smart idea, for exactly this reason. There are obviously no bad intentions behind it (and I think you are reading too much "f!ck off" where I see none btw), but they should have seen this coming regardless. Backer animosity is not preferrable in a kickstarter, methinks.

If I am allowed in all 3 mentions of the 50k stretch goal, it never says free figure is part of it, when they say in the update 7 "our small compensation fro P&P" I can hardly believe anybody believed non P&P paying customers would be involved to it.

I think Razide level pledge people that pay P&P should be more concerned than you.

phil751 wrote:
Ronin please no offense but giive me one example where that is the case. What US based company has given a freebie to their international customers at the exclusion of their domestic customers. Come on that just does not happen .

Ogre 6th Edition gave out a freebie Pocket Ogre to anyone spending $150 or more on the project. The basic box, for Americans, was $100. Shipping to Canada was set to an additional $50. Under the Kickstarter, I qualified for the freebie, but an American would have to up their pledge another $50 to grab it for free (or pop it on as an add-on). So because I spent money on shipping, I got a "freebie" compared to an American pledger. It slightly subsidized the massive cost of shipping (because Pocket Ogre is tiny) but getting it, on its own, as an add-on was considerably less than $50 (I can't even recall if it was an add-on actually, but it is not a limited run and will probably be dirt cheap when it drops).

So, umm, that's one. May want to hedge your bet an append "often" to the end of your post.

So, can anyone explain to me why Warzone died?
Also, why have I never heard about it, not even once, while growing up and getting into GW games in the mid 90s? I still hadn't heard about it up until a few days ago, when this campaign started.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't living under a rock. I played every sci-fi pc/nintendo game I could as well. Were there some mediocre or crappy games on other consoles?

I'm not saying don't back it I'm simply trying to put pressure on prodos and co to not start messing about adding geographical stretch goals . You can't have the rest of the world getting something that for the want of a better phrase the home country is excluded from. Shipping costs are swings and roundabouts. Factor them in to your costings if necessary but do not exclude one country over another unless they are ridiculously remote with a small return revenue which I'm 99 percent certain is not the case with the UK. My opinion is give them until 12.00 midnight GMT 24.2.2013 and then if nothing has changed and you feel the same as I do you pull your pledge until this particular. Issue is resolved to the satisfaction of the community that feels that the current system of perks is not fair. I realise there are many of you don't give a hoot about the UK and believe free postage is all that we should be entitled to .i blame this on the collapse of the empire 200 years ago things would have been very different (joke , just in case ) . But for those of us who share the same land mass (well actually haven't discussed this offline) but am confident they will feel the same and take up the chant global freebies not exclusive freebies. Please someone come up with something catchier than that .nano nano

greywulf wrote:
I played every sci-fi pc/nintendo game I could as well.

Looks like you failed on that!

 kenshin620 wrote:

greywulf wrote:
I played every sci-fi pc/nintendo game I could as well.

Looks like you failed on that!

A huge flop of course, but IMO its actually one of the better Contra clones out there. Hard as hell though. I still play it from time to time.

@ronin

Lol ill give you that one but if you don't mind me saying its pretty obscure I never professed to be expert . But seriously I think most people (certainly not all ) will see the flaw in this marketing .

 kenshin620 wrote:

greywulf wrote:
I played every sci-fi pc/nintendo game I could as well.

Looks like you failed on that!

I read Nintendo Power sporadically and never saw this. It never appeared in any video store in my area either (admittedly rural). I'm watching a youtube video of it and I'm pretty sure I could have enjoyed it for a single weekend. Not much more though. It does look like a flop.

greywulf wrote:
So, can anyone explain to me why Warzone died?
Also, why have I never heard about it, not even once, while growing up and getting into GW games in the mid 90s? I still hadn't heard about it up until a few days ago, when this campaign started.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't living under a rock. I played every sci-fi pc/nintendo game I could as well. Were there some mediocre or crappy games on other consoles?

Target's demise is convoluted and hard to source exact bits on because it happened in the late 90's and wasn't as well recorded as, say, FASA vs. HG. But from what I can tell from a few Swedish players it was actually an oddity of Sweden's bankruptcy law that killed Target and Heartbreaker the first go around. Target Games parent company was on of those big, multi-faceted corporations that had a hand in a little bit of everything. At some point in time, the parent company began to list and declared bankruptcy. This caused all of the smaller bits to follow suit. Target Games/Heartbreaker was just going through a lot of expansion, and when their well dried up, they couldn't remain solvent and both folded. The only arm of the parent company that survived was their electronic gaming division, Paradox Interactive. Paradox bought up the Warzone/Mutant Chronicles and Chronopia licenses and sort of sat on them for a few years. They became known for their historical simulation games (from their branch known as Paradox Interactive).

Now before folding Target/Heartbreaker were in a great position (as a poster stated earlier, the release of the 2nd Edition Warzone starter box was responsible for the only price reduction GW ever issued), but when their parent company forced a multi-division bankruptcy, they simply couldn't stay alive (they are still a minis-gaming and RPG company after all. What is successful for a tabletop company is laughable to a large corporation).

Eventually one guy got a hold of both Chronopia and Warzone licenses. He founded Excelsior Entertainment and was responsible for Chronopia 2nd Edition and Ultimate Warzone. Unfortunately, being one dude with a bit of fan/community support meant that it was slow going and very little new stuff was produced while they held the license. Around the same time another company (COG?) picked up the Mutant Chronicles license (you see, Mutant Chronicles and Warzone licensing is a tiny bit convoluted with the RPG and wargame being two completely different properties, despite Warzone ostensibly being part of the Mutant Chronicles universe). Where Excelsior was fairly reverent with the license (save for them creating loads of unit profiles to represent every, single miniature ever produced by Heartbreaker... and a few Forge World ones), well COG was not. The guys doing the RPG basically came at it thinking "we like Mutant Chronicles... except for a lot of its background!" and did things like setting the game centuries later and destroying the Cybertronic megacorp (one reason they are in the starting batch methinks).

After a few years of slow, sporadic releases, Paradox didn't allow Excelsior to renew the license and Warzone died again. It would be another several years of delays and lack of progress before COG would also lose the license (which I am very thankful for). With the death of Excelsior, though, a lot of things in the background were also scrapped by Paradox (a movie and an MMO).

But a few more years rolled on and FFG swooped in and picked up the license for Warzone (though they called it Mutant Chronicles). It was a 54mm board game with pre-painted minis (and was almost a CMG as well, but massive backlash killed that plan). The fans of Warzone felt well and truly alienated and there was a lot of bad blood left in the community (which explains a lot of the, erm, heated-nature of this Kickstarter). It also didn't help that FFG's attempt actually sucked as well (it was a terrible, terrible game on its own merits). It had almost nothing in common with MC/WZ and drastically changed the aesthetics (and usually not for the better, which is saying something for Mutant Chronicles in some cases). It died out fairly quickly and FFG dropped it.

At some point in time (I think while the 54mm game was around) the movie was pushed through and, again, bore no resemblance to Mutant Chronicles (outside of character names... the casting for the film was actually pretty good). It was a direct to DVD release and barely registered (save for making a lot of MC/WZ fans angrier).

And so for close to a decade, the one very popular franchise has sat, unloved. Until now!

As for not hearing about it, wasn't that difficult. GW was still the big dog and outside of Warzone, they had very little other competition. So if you LGS was a store that only really stocked GW stuff, then you would never know about it. I was lucky, back in those days my city had three game stores. One was GW-only (but not a GW store), one had a good chunk of FASA and Ral Partha and the last one stocked a lot of Target (still has some of it saddly, along with some of the FFG stuff, I doubt he'll give it a third try).

But despite spotty distribution to some places it managed to be at least equal (though probably greater, considering the market in the late 90's) to Privateer Press in the industry today. So don't feel too bad about not knowing about it. It had more to do with the structure of the industry back then (and the internet not being super-huge yet).

Disclaimer: As I said, a lot of my knowledge of Target's demise is spotty, since I had intermitent net access back then and rarely did the "visiting wargaming sites" and unfortunately, trying to dig the info up today gets you a lot of generalization and conjecture (unlike bigger profile cases like FASA and Harmony Gold). Then again if one is Swedish the information is probably easier to find.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phil751 wrote:
@ronin

Lol ill give you that one but if you don't mind me saying its pretty obscure I never professed to be expert . But seriously I think most people (certainly not all ) will see the flaw in this marketing .

Obscure? It is one of the biggest board game Kickstarters of all time (can't remember if has finally been kicked out of the top three by the numerous other super-successful ones in 2012). It made nearly $1mil.

I'm trying to understand something with your example, Ronin. Correct me if I am wrong.

Canadians had to pay 50$ of shipping on an order of 100$, thus paying 150$ and got an add-on that was below 50$ in worth. Thus American backers could add that pocket Ogre and, as long as it cost under 50.01$ were still coming out ahead. And that is a bad thing.

I think it comes down to perception, really.

The way I see it is thus, and again feel free to correct me:

I see product X being offered. It will cost [this] to ship

Some people get free shipping (Discrimination by Geography, I tell you!!!)

The people that do not get free shipping, get an add-on for free. The people who get free shipping can still get it, they just have to pay for it.

All in all, the free shipping people still get a better deal in this instance, because the add-on is less costly than shipping.

Now if the resentment of so many KS being based in the USA charged shipping to UK backers and they are bitter about it is an assumption made in previous arguments, then I'd just like to have it stated outright.

@ronin boardgame , not skirmish not medium scale or large scale , just boardgame different animal altogether. As was zombicie, rivet wars etc etc

phil751 wrote:It really doesn't matter what you think, excluding a country of origin from a stretch goal perk no matter how much they have invested is not a smart idea. Personally if I was running a project I would offer near enough worldwide free shipping and cost that into the kick starter pledges games and gear brushes have managed it to brilliant effect for such a small project. Excluding nations Will Piss people off, I was a huge fan of mc past and present until today when I quite politely pointed out the potential discrimination and was politely told by prodos to fxxk off lol. He felt a little differently when I was defending the project to warboss and others and check my previous posts. Think. I was even described as a sock puppet lol.

phil751 wrote:I'm not saying don't back it I'm simply trying to put pressure on prodos and co to not start messing about adding geographical stretch goals . You can't have the rest of the world getting something that for the want of a better phrase the home country is excluded from. Shipping costs are swings and roundabouts. Factor them in to your costings if necessary but do not exclude one country over another unless they are ridiculously remote with a small return revenue which I'm 99 percent certain is not the case with the UK. My opinion is give them until 12.00 midnight GMT 24.2.2013 and then if nothing has changed and you feel the same as I do you pull your pledge until this particular. Issue is resolved to the satisfaction of the community that feels that the current system of perks is not fair. I realise there are many of you don't give a hoot about the UK and believe free postage is all that we should be entitled to .i blame this on the collapse of the empire 200 years ago things would have been very different (joke , just in case ) . But for those of us who share the same land mass (well actually haven't discussed this offline) but am confident they will feel the same and take up the chant global freebies not exclusive freebies. Please someone come up with something catchier than that .nano nano

Games & Gears are selling and shipping brushes not multiple box sets of miniatures and rule books, it isn't a fair or balanced comparison. Suggesting that they cost free shipping for everyone is insane, it would be difficult enough for a project of this size and nature to estimate shipping costs,(Prodos don't know how many boxes of minis they are going to ship out or to where) let alone actually cover those costs without increasing the amount between stretch goals/reducing stretch rewards which would of course lead to more storms in tea cups and whining.

It's such a ridiculous thing to complain about. You haven't lost out or missed anything and you can still get all the exact same stuff for pledging but for cheaper than an international backer because you are in the UK.

But that isn't good enough, it has to be "free".

Even though it costs more ...

EDIT:

In fact I just realized that since you are pledging Brotherhood level if you "paid" the extra £15 that it would cost to ship that pledge level internationally you could get an additional 2 characters and still have a quid left. So lets pretend that £15 is UK shipping and all UK backers get 2 "free" miniatures! HURRAH! Everyone is happy!

No? ... ok then

@Matthieu resentment maybe part of it on my side but I think. It's more to do with parity with the global community. Giving a free model to the whole world apart from the UK just is not cricket (baseball/ice hockey). Etc anywhere rules are observed in effect. Subsidise shipping by a stretch goal by all means but don't give a free mini to one nation and not another.

Over and out

phil

Wow Ronin. Thanks.

I got into minis through friends and a GW store. It was pretty much all I was exposed to. Glad the market has opened up in recent years.

Yeah that's a legitimately interesting post Ronin.

I had wondered why I never heard of Warzone before, especially since I just picked up and finished reading the 2nd ED rule book (anticipation for Resurrection) and it's really quite good, definitely looks like something I'd have liked to give a spin and a better looking game than it's troubled history would have you assume.

It also amused me that a number of things in Warzone have since been added to or are present in other newer games, the parabolic fire rules and diagrams for example are almost exactly the same as the ones in the Infinity rules even though IIRC 10 years passed between them being published.

Hell, well fxxk it then if you really think its ok to discriminate on stretch goals to a geographic region more power to you, not really seeing how that will be beneficial to buyers in the long run though. Good luck with it though because its not an almost certain path to a withering death. I've not always been so peeved at this project if you check earlier pages I was quite disparaging towards people with negative comments on this project which were not at all constructive. So as not to be a bigger hypocrite than I already am, please please do not penalise backers models wise on Where they might be located in the world. over much at least..

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I'm trying to understand something with your example, Ronin. Correct me if I am wrong.

Canadians had to pay 50$ of shipping on an order of 100$, thus paying 150$ and got an add-on that was below 50$ in worth. Thus American backers could add that pocket Ogre and, as long as it cost under 50.01$ were still coming out ahead. And that is a bad thing.

I think it comes down to perception, really.

The way I see it is thus, and again feel free to correct me:

I see product X being offered. It will cost [this] to ship

Some people get free shipping (Discrimination by Geography, I tell you!!!)

The people that do not get free shipping, get an add-on for free. The people who get free shipping can still get it, they just have to pay for it.

All in all, the free shipping people still get a better deal in this instance, because the add-on is less costly than shipping.

Now if the resentment of so many KS being based in the USA charged shipping to UK backers and they are bitter about it is an assumption made in previous arguments, then I'd just like to have it stated outright.

Actually, looking the project over, I can't even find the cost of Pocket Ogre as an add-on. So it was for $150 pledges only. But I agree, either way you slice it, better deal for the backers in the same country. Because for the same cost as an international backer you will still be getting more. In the case of Ogre a US backer at $150 had loads of add-on counter sheets and extra (just like a UK backer will have a whole spare unit box compared to the same level of an international backer). But as a backer at Razide-level who isn't getting a freebie and is still paying £12 for shipping, I am not even slightly peeved by this. Some rewards require minimum backing levels.

That said, as an international backer, this has made me look at my pledge and the value added by upping it to Dark Legion, and I think they managed to just grab an extra £1 out of me when I get home.

I'm currently paying £84+£12+£24 (Razide, shipping and two V-Ranger boxes), so £120. Now that you can swap out starters for an equal amount of add-ons (will have to double check the exact limits of this) I can instead drop £109+£12 = £121 and get:

- Swap the starter for £30 worth of add-ons (so two V-Ranger boxes, and an extra £6 left over)
- An extra character.

Now, a UK player pumping the same amount in is still getting more. But Prodos giving me an option to convert starters to equal amounts of add-ons (good for everyone) and convert part of my shipping in to an actual mini means that they just got a little bit of extra money out of me (and with that extra £6 hanging I might just use that to subsidize a larger purchase that I wouldn't have gone for originally). Honestly, I think that any current Razide-level international backer who has two or more £12 unit boxes as add-ons would be silly not to immediately upgrade to Dark Legion, even if it does cost £1 more than you are likely spending. So I think Prodos actually did a great thing for international backers here.

I'm not a backer at this stage and aren't sure if I will be, so I have no especially strong feelings either way on the "free" miniature. I also don't live in the UK, so in the end it won't effect me at all - outside of how much of a WZ community there might be in a year's time. I do think it would be worth the small production cost for Prodos to keep UK backers onside by including them with the "free" figure. Especially when we're talking about people paying over 100UKP in each instance...

 Ronin_eX wrote:


After a few years of slow, sporadic releases, Paradox didn't allow Excelsior to renew the license and Warzone died again. It would be another several years of delays and lack of progress before COG would also lose the license (which I am very thankful for). With the death of Excelsior, though, a lot of things in the background were also scrapped by Paradox (a movie and an MMO).

But a few more years rolled on and FFG swooped in and picked up the license for Warzone (though they called it Mutant Chronicles). It was a 54mm board game with pre-painted minis (and was almost a CMG as well, but massive backlash killed that plan). The fans of Warzone felt well and truly alienated and there was a lot of bad blood left in the community (which explains a lot of the, erm, heated-nature of this Kickstarter). It also didn't help that FFG's attempt actually sucked as well (it was a terrible, terrible game on its own merits). It had almost nothing in common with MC/WZ and drastically changed the aesthetics (and usually not for the better, which is saying something for Mutant Chronicles in some cases). It died out fairly quickly and FFG dropped it.

As an avid player of the Excelsior version back when they lost the license, the announcement of the FFG version came out either at the same time or actually right before the license was yanked. And while FFG denied that their license had anything to do with Exclesior's (originally it was pitched as a CMG) I have long suspected on the back end that they helped cause the demise of Excelsior.

Ah well I have moved on and had forgiven them for killing my favorite game (& Warzone too!), and now Prodos is giving me something to be excited about. Time to dust off my old MWrealms avatar.

 Azazelx wrote:
I'm not a backer at this stage and aren't sure if I will be, so I have no especially strong feelings either way on the "free" miniature. I also don't live in the UK, so in the end it won't effect me at all - outside of how much of a WZ community there might be in a year's time. I do think it would be worth the small production cost for Prodos to keep UK backers onside by including them with the "free" figure. Especially when we're talking about people paying over 100UKP in each instance...

But then you have international backers complaining about getting less bang for their buck again (you know, the complaints other people were raising about being international backers throughout the last several pages). I don't give a flip one way or the other, people will complain regardless of what Prodos do, I just think some people are being really bloody hyperbolic about the whole thing and need to calm the hell down.

You have people acting (and saying) that this is an affront as great as Prodos on their heads. But either way you split it Prodos are in a bad situation.

People were complaining that international backers were getting charged pretty hard for backing the project (compared to a UK player who could buy a new unit for the cost a high-level international backer pays in shipping). And this is before even getting in to things like whether or not these prices include VAT. Now, personally, as an international backer myself, I was fine subsidizing the project with my shipping contribution. But I'm sure a lot of international backers at the higher level appreciated the nod to their greater expenditure for less products than a UK backer.

Now that they have done something nice for international backers they are weathering complaints (though honestly, it kind of seems like the one guy with a few people saying it isn't great but not equating it to Prodos dropping a deuce on their noggin').

So honestly, I'm glad they are taking a stand. UK players aren't losing out on anything (compared to the same expenditure of money, they are still getting more stuff) and high-level international backers are getting a subsidized shipping cost for pumping as much as they did in to the project when it would have been cheaper for them to wait for release and grab it from online discounters or from their LGS.

Either way, I think it is important to remember this:

A UK backer at DL-level with character added on is paying £116
An international backer at DL-level with the "free" character is paying £121

Who is getting the better deal (in terms of ratio of stuff:cost)?

[slightlyfacetioustongueincheekpisstakeargument]
If people want all backers to be treated equally then why haven't the UK players stepped up to pay postage? It certainly isn't free to ship their packages either (probably cheap, but it all adds up and can still eat in to their funding) but Prodos will eat those costs. Meanwhile it may well cost a bit less than £12 to ship some of the international packages (could also cost more to some locations). This "bonus" is basically Prodos saying "hey, you guys are pumping a good chunk of cash in to this project, perhaps even more than you would need to buying the game through a retail store or online retailer after release. So have a bit of subsidized shipping.
[/slightlyfacetioustongueincheekpisstakeargument]



In the end, I will agree, it isn't 100% ideal for UK backers but then, shipping costs aren't 100% ideal for international backers and those were complained about just as much, if not more than, this issue.

But I really don't care either way. I was pumping £120 (likely more now) in to this project regardless of freebies and bonuses and felt I was getting my money's worth. As a Razide level backer I didn't feel hard done by that my shipping wasn't subsidized (and I haven't seen many people throw a hissy over that either). I just don't see why anyone would complain SO FREAKING HARD about this one little thing. It, just, doesn't, compute! This is a bad hill to die on if I ever saw one.

phil751 wrote:
@Matthieu resentment maybe part of it on my side but I think. It's more to do with parity with the global community. Giving a free model to the whole world apart from the UK just is not cricket (baseball/ice hockey). Etc anywhere rules are observed in effect. Subsidise shipping by a stretch goal by all means but don't give a free mini to one nation and not another.

Over and out

phil

Alright. See, I just wanted to make sure we were all talking with cards on the table. And I am not saying you're wrong about being resentful. Sometimes a situation really is unfair.

As a follow-up, and everyone can chip in on this one:

Would it have seemed better to have them just state flat out that everyone was being charged shipping, which is fair and equitable, and then offer all Dark Legion pledgers a free mini that other backers can purchase?

Would the perception of fairness be better. Regardless of the fact that more KS are coming from the US and that the rest of the world has to pay shipping (not on all of them, I might add. Blackwater Gulch offered free shipping to many different countries).
I'm sure Dakka members from Poland or Japan can chime in and attest to that.

I just don't like the negative vibe the last few pages have had, but I know it can be a bummer to feel cheated. Maybe we can just step aside for a moment and assume a neutral standpoint. Heck, I pay shipping for most of my stuff from KS.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I just don't like the negative vibe the last few pages have had, but I know it can be a bummer to feel cheated. Maybe we can just step aside for a moment and assume a neutral standpoint. Heck, I pay shipping for most of my stuff from KS.

I've got to agree on all points. I'd much rather discuss Warzone and all the awesome stuff than get in to another OT debate about not Warzone. I also agree on shipping, I back a lot of Kickstarters and as a Canadian, the only time I don't pay shipping is when I am going all-digital. Even if there was a 100% Canuck project, they would charge shipping. Damn our country being huge and sparsley populated! So it is kind of nice that at least one KS I back gives me a little something to alleviate always having to figure an extra $20+ of non-product in all of my orders.

But in either case Etoile Mortant! Praetorian Stalkers! Machinators (that don't suck!)! Sacred... erm DOODS!!!

Let's talk about that instead.

When it comes to the Etoile Mortant and their exclusivity I am torn. The all-female ones have been kind of ingrained in to the games collective unconscious, but I do think the 1st Edition fluff is better (seems odd to only train half of your art-capable population). I just have a feeling that if they show up as a co-ed unit then some people will scream bloody murder. Because Warzone/Mutant Chronicles has a variable background that changed quite a bit and everyone has their own favourite. So far they seem to be hewing close to my favourite (MC RPG+1st Edition) with most of their stuff, but it is obvious that 2nd Edition is on the table as well (Vulcan). Either way, I'll be interested to see what they go with and I don't think I will begrudge them either way. If the unit ends up hewing close to the original Mutant Chronicles fluff and it is co-ed, then that is awesome (and should give us lots of conversion bits for females in other squads). If they are all female, then I hope they are all as awesome as Angelika. Either way, I know Prodos will do an awesome job.

Also, I am loving the new machinators and may have to add them on to my pledge if/when £60k hits. Nice to see they are back to being AI/robots again. I'll be interested to see what the AI rules are this time around (I always enjoyed that about Cybertronic and the Syntha). And it also appears they will be a little larger than average as well, if that 3-man squad is anything to go by.

And with the Brotherhood getting a predominantly assault-oriented squad, I have to pray that they have found a way to solve the HtH issues of 2nd Edition and UWZ. Because Warzone is one of those games where smacking someone with a sword should be a workable option. A lot of Mishima (and the Etoile for that matter) will hinge on how they treat assault in this edition.

And only a few more days until the beta rules release! It will be nice to pull my Warzone stuff out of the drawer they're in and have a game or eighty-thousand (approximately) to give them a test.

I am just sticking with MC/WZ-Reboot 2.0

 Ronin_eX wrote:

People were complaining that international backers were getting charged pretty hard for backing the project (compared to a UK player who could buy a new unit for the cost a high-level international backer pays in shipping). And this is before even getting in to things like whether or not these prices include VAT. Now, personally, as an international backer myself, I was fine subsidizing the project with my shipping contribution. But I'm sure a lot of international backers at the higher level appreciated the nod to their greater expenditure for less products than a UK backer.

Yeah, I'm probably closer to one of those. Unfortunately, giving me one 7UKP model to partially offset 12UKP shipping on orders of 110UKP+ for a non-covered pre-order still doesn't beat 10% off RRP and free postage on items in stock and ready to ship. It's a nice enough gesture, but oddly, given all the things about Kickstarters that manage to piss me off, this isn't one of them.

I dunno. I think offsetting the shipping costs with a cheap-to-produce freebie is actually quite a good idea, though I think it would be well done at a lower level, and more universally (ie UK backers as well - keep them happy!) Figures don't cost the same as their RRP to produce after all, so it's a good way to get some good feelings going and get more people onboard...

All this arguing over a free model for those outside the US pledging at the Dark Legion level strikes me as completely pointless.

The way I see it is this. £12 shipping is rather pricy and has been putting some potential backers off (see previous arguments in this very thread) adding a free character to sweeten the deal for those who pledge a significant amount of money is in my opinion a good move. The end result is still that a non UK backer pays more for what they receive but they effectively only pay £5 shipping rather than £12 which seems a lot more reasonable. For a UK backer who wants the same amount of stuff they end up paying £5 less than anyone else.

Lets break it down showing what non UK and UK backers get for their money shall we?

UK backer:
Dark Legion pledge (3 starter boxes + ltd ed rulebook) £109
1 additional character £7
Shipping Free

Total: £116

Non UK backer:
Dark Legion pledge (3 starter boxes + ltd ed rulebook) £109
1 additional character Free
Shipping £12

Total: £121

To me it looks like both get good value for money and it's still cheaper for UK backers!!!!! (five exclamation marks I must be making a serious point )

Anyway enough of this silly bickering over a simple offer to attract more non UK backers. The units at the £60k stretch goal look awesome and have again made my choice of 2nd starter box more difficult. May have to throw yet more money at this to get another couple of units.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
@Count Zero: In the fluff it makes sense that it's only women. They are only recruited because they cannot bear children (social commentary aside) and thus devote their lives to actively defending their Megacorp. It's super regressive and doesn't show the value of women in the workplace... but it is fluffy.

I don't believe I said anything about any all female unit but if you are talking about Étoiles it depends on which fluff you are reading. But I don't fancy "one genderd" units in general since it normally means most grunts will be male except for one unit where everyone is female... I'd like to see more female minis in every unit, but that's a different discussion which you'll have to pm me about if you want to continue it, there is already enough of distracting rants in this thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really hope HMV vill continue to do the rest of the bauhaus! I really like the new look and would like the design to be consistent. And given how awesome Angelika turned out my guess is that the Étoiles would be just as awesome, all female or not!

Here's the alternate 'Everasseur'.

That is kind of brutal, megaman grown up! ;-)

The Laughing Man wrote:

It's steadily reaching the point that it's used to dismiss reasonable arguments or statements instead of chastising people for being flippant about Nazis and the holocaust.

Godwin's law was always about dismissing hyperbolic idiocy and had nothing to do with the holocaust

This isn't about entitlement, not at all. This is about a simple choice. Should I back this YES/NO and the unfairness of this has pushed me further into the NO camp. Its not about the money, it is the principle.

By the cardinals blessed sandals, It's £ 7 and UK pledgers will come out on top any way! Is a principle that will hive you £ 7 more important than supporting a gam which might give you countless of hours of joyful gaming/painting/modeling which imo is worth more than money!?

And apart from that, I can promise you all that prodos got your critoque by now so can we please drop all this trolling!

Palindrome wrote:

The Laughing Man wrote:

It's steadily reaching the point that it's used to dismiss reasonable arguments or statements instead of chastising people for being flippant about Nazis and the holocaust.

Godwin's law was always about dismissing hyperbolic idiocy and had nothing to do with the holocaust

This isn't about entitlement, not at all. This is about a simple choice. Should I back this YES/NO and the unfairness of this has pushed me further into the NO camp. Its not about the money, it is the principle.

Principle of what ?
what is unfair ? we got free shipping ... save of £12 to internationals.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rob_alderman wrote:
Here's the alternate 'Everasseur'.

I love that :p

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
By the cardinals blessed sandals, It's £ 7 and UK pledgers will come out on top any way! Is a principle that will hive you £ 7 more important than supporting a gam which might give you countless of hours of joyful gaming/painting/modeling which imo is worth more than money!?

And apart from that, I can promise you all that prodos got your critoque by now so can we please drop all this trolling!

As I have already said it is the principle, not the money. I fail to see how this is trolling?

This game will be released, KS or no, and I should be able to get what I want for the same cost from other retailers when it is released anyway. I currently see little benefit of backing this.

There is not much more to be said, unless someone else decides to be needlessly aggressive.

And I did address your principles, and while accusing you for trolling might have been a bit harsh I'd say all this crap about the free mini starts to look like it!

Palindrome wrote:
This game will be released, KS or no, and I should be able to get what I want for the same cost from other retailers when it is released anyway. I currently see little benefit of backing this.

Because it will give prodos more funds so that we may see more awesome miniatures sooner and increase the probability for this to be more lasting than previous incarnations of the game? Id rather see this be the final and "everlasting" version of warzone than get a free £ 7 miniature...

I have an idea though, why not discuss this awesome game that's being ressurected instead (warzone)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And prodos have stated that there will be goodies for all in the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I might just have to get that new Everasseur even if I'm not playing Cybertronic! It looks like Cybertronics take on the quake 2 enforcer and I really like it, this quake-esque design isn't so bad after all!

I can see why UK backers are bothered. It's not about the money, it's about the idea. And I honestly think that Prodos made a mistake doing that. International folks understand that shipping out of the country costs more then shipping within the country and are often reasonable about paying extra shipping. Prodos still has to pay shipping for those folks outside the UK. Honestly, I think that negativity doesn't weigh up against the pitiable production costs of a mini.

As a side note, I think that Prodos also did a disservice to the folks living in Europe, shipping to the rest of the world is twice as expensive as shipping to Europe, we're essentially subsidizing the rest of the world shipping...

I honestly don't see a reason why I should spend money at this time up front beyond my 1GBP backing. It's not as if we'll be seeing the minis any faster then the retail channels or getting them cheaper then through the retail channels (the opposite in fact). I don't see any benefit in spending 7GBP for a mini which will retail for 7.99GBP, which I could get for 6.60GBP on release (with no shipping fees). The free cards aren't that interesting imho, free minis are, because I can't do those myself. Prodos might be hinting on future free goodies, but their stretchgoals are just very unclear and thus very difficult for folks to get excited over. Excitement drives a KS. This KS is loosing steam quickly:




The KS was trending towards £400k, two disappointing days it's closer to £300k.

Cergorach wrote:
I can see why UK backers are bothered. It's not about the money, it's about the idea. And I honestly think that Prodos made a mistake doing that. International folks understand that shipping out of the country costs more then shipping within the country and are often reasonable about paying extra shipping. Prodos still has to pay shipping for those folks outside the UK. Honestly, I think that negativity doesn't weigh up against the pitiable production costs of a mini.

As a side note, I think that Prodos also did a disservice to the folks living in Europe, shipping to the rest of the world is twice as expensive as shipping to Europe, we're essentially subsidizing the rest of the world shipping...

I honestly don't see a reason why I should spend money at this time up front beyond my 1GBP backing. It's not as if we'll be seeing the minis any faster then the retail channels or getting them cheaper then through the retail channels (the opposite in fact). I don't see any benefit in spending 7GBP for a mini which will retail for 7.99GBP, which I could get for 6.60GBP on release (with no shipping fees). The free cards aren't that interesting imho, free minis are, because I can't do those myself. Prodos might be hinting on future free goodies, but their stretchgoals are just very unclear and thus very difficult for folks to get excited over. Excitement drives a KS. This KS is loosing steam quickly:


The KS was trending towards £400k, two disappointing days it's closer to £300k.

I'm not bothered. I'm not one of those who can Rage for 50p... or £7.

I still pay LESS than folks in US/rest of the world, the mini cost me £7 and I'm happy to pay that.

Also ,I think you need to check your data about shipping cost before you judge.

http://www.royalmail.com/packet-despatch-low/international-delivery

Looks like Prodos is going to pay more that £12 for international AND Europe, the book itself is (300+ page they said+ hard back) is something like 2,5kg... that is £14+ Europe and £24+ Rest of the world.
Sure free mini is cool, but they are not charity, and they operating on IP (and I believe they have to give away some profit, are't they?).
More they give away for FREE, less profit they will make and that only means less stuff for us in future releases.
I want Mishima to be done be end of the year, please

Aslo about you charts, check your data again.... all kickstarters reaching the point when they slow down... we've been there many times with other KS project.

Cergorach I can think of one very good reason to back this kickstarter campaign. Yes the game was going to be coming out anyway but with only 3 factions and with a very limited number of models. Thanks to this kickstarter it will already be launching with 4 factions and an additional unit and hero for each. Helping to ensure that Warzone launches with a good range of models on day one is in my opinion the best reason to back this kickstarter.

Cergorach wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

Yeah, those are definitely Renedra; basically the same company that did GW's plastics until GW bought their own equipment several years back.

Hahahah!!!

No! Absolutely no! Renedra is run by ex-GW employees, Renedra has never produced anything for GW, and GW has had their plastic manufacturing in house for a long, long time. Far, far longer then a couple of years. Renedra would simply never had the capacity to produce the number of sprues/molds GW required, even in the early days of GW. I would estimate that GW has done their plastics in house for two decades, maybe even longer.

.

Man, again check your "source data" ... as you talking c..p

Go to Renedra Website and click on HISTORY.

qoute : "...10 years later in 1985 I started my own Toolmaking business in Wisbech and one of my first customers was Games Workshop who were in their early stages of Plastic miniatures. In 1998 GW bought out my business and I continued working for them until I took retirement in February 2007."

 rob_alderman wrote:
Here's the alternate 'Everasseur'.

I was sceptical regarding that pose, but Jesus christ on an effing motorbike, that's gorgeous!

 rob_alderman wrote:
Here's the alternate 'Everasseur'.

Holy... This makes the choice for a starter set even harder!

megaman grown up, lol

Great description and a grat model. I'll back this project soon enough, like how it's run, and the mini and game look great

Found these photos of a Praetorian Stalker on the net. Surely fan made​​, but cool.

 god.ra wrote:

Cergorach wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

Yeah, those are definitely Renedra; basically the same company that did GW's plastics until GW bought their own equipment several years back.

Hahahah!!!

No! Absolutely no! Renedra is run by ex-GW employees, Renedra has never produced anything for GW, and GW has had their plastic manufacturing in house for a long, long time. Far, far longer then a couple of years. Renedra would simply never had the capacity to produce the number of sprues/molds GW required, even in the early days of GW. I would estimate that GW has done their plastics in house for two decades, maybe even longer.

.

Man, again check your "source data" ... as you are talking c..p

Go to Renedra Website and click on HISTORY.

qoute : "...10 years later in 1985 I started my own Toolmaking business in Wisbech and one of my first customers was Games Workshop who were in their early stages of Plastic miniatures. In 1998 GW bought out my business and I continued working for them until I took retirement in February 2007."

That was NOT Renedra and that is not a few years ago, that's 15 years ago. Sure not 20 years, my bad (I blame age and having been around GW since WD98). But Renedra is a different company with very limited production capacity and no real interest to expand that production capacity all that much (their words not mine). Also, he's talking about toolmaking, that's making the metal molds, and not about production. A lot of companies that do the casting of metal minis inhouse outsource the production of the (rubber) molds. Renadra Limited has an incorporation date of "12 Mar 2007" and that company has never worked for GW.

god.ra wrote:
Also ,I think you need to check your data about shipping cost before you judge.

http://www.royalmail.com/packet-despatch-low/international-delivery

Looks like Prodos is going to pay more that £12 for international AND Europe, the book itself is (300+ page they said+ hard back) is something like 2,5kg... that is £14+ Europe and £24+ Rest of the world.
Sure free mini is cool, but they are not charity, and they operating on IP (and I believe they have to give away some profit, are't they?).
More they give away for FREE, less profit they will make and that only means less stuff for us in future releases.
I want Mishima to be done be end of the year, please

I had a different pdf in front of me for shipping (up to 2kg), that's Parcelforce and not exactly cheap. Still shipping to the US costs about three times what it costs for shipping to the Netherlands. I also expect that they can find a better international shipping company, even the Dutch TNT is cheaper then UK Parcelforce...

The 'free' shipping within the UK is calculated in the pledge level price, that same amount is imho just added to international shipping, and also the reason why I find it strange that UK backers don't get a free mini.

Also, WZR is a skirmish game, would you want to burn it bright on initial release and then let it sputter out to a slow death because of limited to no releases? Games/lines like WarmaHordes still exist because we have new releases every month. I really don't want a huge release with 8 factions and another 10 subfactions. Prodos has apparently announced that Mishima will not be part of this KS, with the actual release hitting at the earliest in June 2013, I seriously doubt they'll be doing Mishima before the end of the year.

Don't get me wrong I like WZ and think it's good that it's getting another shot at fame, but imho there are a lot of issues with the KS. Ranging from not enough preparation (something the failed 'Beyond the Gates of Antares' KS also suffered from, although WZR isn't that bad), unclear stretch goals, high price point at all levels of KS, free mini only for folks outside the UK, etc. Sure, it's not as bad as the FASA, the Beyond the Gates of Antares, or the Battletech KS, but it's not even close to other more successful KS (and I'm not talking about CMON, Ogre or Reaper KS projects).

I'm mostly interested in the extra interest WZR is generating, I still have the old minis, I still have the old rules. Sure the new minis look (in some instances) better then the old stuff, but not so much that it's worth twice the price (or more) then the old minis and atleast a four month wait. I currently rather spend the money of a starter and a rulebook on 50+ of the old minis...

Aslo about you charts, check your data again.... all kickstarters reaching the point when they slow down... we've been there many times with other KS project.

A slowdown is expected, not a crawl. ~50 backers and 4k-5k a day was imho the slowdown, a slowdown to ~20 backers and 2k a day is a crawl for this KS.

Palindrome wrote:

The Laughing Man wrote:

It's steadily reaching the point that it's used to dismiss reasonable arguments or statements instead of chastising people for being flippant about Nazis and the holocaust.

Godwin's law was always about dismissing hyperbolic idiocy and had nothing to do with the holocaust

This isn't about entitlement, not at all. This is about a simple choice. Should I back this YES/NO and the unfairness of this has pushed me further into the NO camp. Its not about the money, it is the principle.

If it's about dismissing hyberbolic idiocy lets invoke it now and dismiss everything you've posted in this thread.

Or I can just press ignore.

Anyway, how likely do people think it is that further stretch goals will include unlocking additional factions? I didn't think it would be that likely at first given the amount of time Prodos have before release but then I thought that they might pull a Mantic and set up and fund a second wave of releases.

The Laughing Man wrote:

Or I can just press ignore..

If you wish to be so childish then be my guest.

The Laughing Man wrote:
Anyway, how likely do people think it is that further stretch goals will include unlocking additional factions? I didn't think it would be that likely at first given the amount of time Prodos have before release but then I thought that they might pull a Mantic and set up and fund a second wave of releases.

Well they've already stated that Imperial or Mishima will not make an appearance in this kickstarter. However we stand every change of seeing Capitol on launch as they are unlocked at £80k. I'd love to see all faction available on launch but only if they are well developed and have a decent number of units and characters available. As it stands the first 4 factions are in fairly decent shape with 2 heroes, 2 squads with a 3rd in the pipeline assuming £60k is pledged and 1 walker/monster. That's enough to get a fairly interesting small force together but we will all almost certainly want more variety fairly soon after launch (models for squad leaders and special/heavy weapons mostly I suspect). So I think Prodos' approach to adding the other factions at a later date is a fairly sensible one. A second wave of releases for the existing factions is certainly a viable option and could also lead to more money being pledged but I think that trying to work on every faction at once at this early date would be a massive mistake.

Just had a look at this.. a bit KS'ed out after the relative disappointment of the Gates of Antares not reaching its target. At least this one has started with a lot more already on the table!

Looks kind of fun though.. was initially put off as I thought it was a mass-battle system (and I just don't have the time to paint those these days) but seeing that it's a skirmish game has definitely got me interested. Looks rather OTT, but also with a touch of humour, and the setting is kind of cool. Will have to delve into it a bit deeper, but looks like it most certainly might be worth £80 or so for a couple of starter sets and a rule book.

A couple of quick questions for anyone in the know, if I may! I've missed the start of this thread, so apologies if they have been answered already:
- Will those starter sets be a playable force straight from the off?
- And presumably all the rules needed etc. in the rulebook?
(so what I'm trying to say... if I went for the £84 'The Regide' pledge that would be enough for a mate and I to play with nothing else?)

Yes, Capitol. My precious.

I like how if you aren't offering people 200+ minis for chump change with a dump truck full of freebies and blowjobs thrown on top then pledging isn't "worthwhile" and you clearly weren't "prepared" for a KS, and every single game from now on will be "doomed to fail" even after barely a week has passed. Thank you for that, CMoN.

 Pacific wrote:
A couple of quick questions for anyone in the know, if I may! I've missed the start of this thread, so apologies if they have been answered already:
- Will those starter sets be a playable force straight from the off?
- And presumably all the rules needed etc. in the rulebook?
(so what I'm trying to say... if I went for the £84 'The Regide' pledge that would be enough for a mate and I to play with nothing else?)

The starter boxes do contain everything you need for a basic army but it is just a basic army you will want more stuff in time. From what I remember the optimum level for the game has been speculated to be around the 20 to 40 figure mark depending on how elite or otherwise your army is. Which is not too bad considering the cost of the figures.

But yeah for 2 players the Razide level looks to be an ideal starting point.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I like how if you aren't offering people 200+ minis for chump change with a dump truck full of freebies and blowjobs thrown on top then pledging isn't "worthwhile" and you clearly weren't "prepared" for a KS, and every single game from now on will be "doomed to fail" even after barely a week has passed. Thank you for that, CMoN.

BS! The reason Prodos isn't prepared isn't because they are offering 'little value', but because at launch they didn't even have concepts ready for stretch goals that were clearly going to be met. Instead they are using 15 year old illustrations. They did have 3D art ready for the first three starters, the Bauhaus concept art was ready quickly when the KS goal was met. Now there are of course tons of folks jumping out of the woodwork claiming that a KS is supposed to work like that, it isn't. Just look at The Gates of Antares, just an idea ready and it failed miserably. I don't mind if stretch goals get so high that the folks running the KS didn't anticipate it, but your not going to tell me that £50k was utterly surprising...

No one is going to claim that the WZR KS is going to fail, it has already hit it's goals, that's because it's goals were low. What some of us are saying is that it isn't as successful as it could be and should be. Part of that is the 'little value' in getting in early, another is 'bad' preparation and unclear 'facts' (stretchgoals, MSRP pricing, etc.). As for CMON and Reaper 'spoiling things', they know how to do business and they know it well. It's not for nothing that those folks raised $2 and $3.4 million in a KS. As for making retailers unhappy, folks seem to have the wrong priority, you sell stuff by making customers happy, not by making retailers happy. Most customers don't give a flying F about retailers, if a retailer doesn't stock a product and doesn't want to order a product, a customer will go to a different store.

It seems to me that folks are forgetting a few things, WZ is an old property, many fans/folks already have a ton of WZ minis, and many of those old minis are still available for half (or less) then the new minis. Sure the new Razide looks awesome, but is it worth twice the price of the current model? For some of us it is, for some it isn't. With most other KS you have new models/games, not new versions of old models. Look at the Dreamforge KS, that Crusader Leviathan was a cheaper version ($89 vs. $375) of the old resin model in an easier medium (plastic vs resin), not to mention it was more then 25% off ($89 vs $120, even more if you bought more then one). It only had to compete with a few expensive resin copies, folks wanted to use it as 'cheap' Knight titans, it's even close in size to a FW Warhound titan ($550), that's value and demand in one neat package. Heck we were getting 'free' stuff at stretchgoal levels of £24k, £36k, and £60k.

I am loving the new 'Everasseur' render. It's so amazing. If it ends up in the starter, my ability to choose factions is gone. I'll have to get them all.

 agustin wrote:
I am loving the new 'Everasseur' render. It's so amazing. If it ends up in the starter, my ability to choose factions is gone. I'll have to get them all.

Yeah, the choice is getting more and more difficult. Quite a lot hangs on the final version of the Vulcan though.

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
A couple of quick questions for anyone in the know, if I may! I've missed the start of this thread, so apologies if they have been answered already:
- Will those starter sets be a playable force straight from the off?
- And presumably all the rules needed etc. in the rulebook?
(so what I'm trying to say... if I went for the £84 'The Regide' pledge that would be enough for a mate and I to play with nothing else?)

The starter boxes do contain everything you need for a basic army but it is just a basic army you will want more stuff in time. From what I remember the optimum level for the game has been speculated to be around the 20 to 40 figure mark depending on how elite or otherwise your army is. Which is not too bad considering the cost of the figures.

But yeah for 2 players the Razide level looks to be an ideal starting point.

I can confirm that


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agustin wrote:
I am loving the new 'Everasseur' render. It's so amazing. If it ends up in the starter, my ability to choose factions is gone. I'll have to get them all.

Yes, he is going to be optional model for Cybertronic Starter this will be announced soon

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
A couple of quick questions for anyone in the know, if I may! I've missed the start of this thread, so apologies if they have been answered already:
- Will those starter sets be a playable force straight from the off?
- And presumably all the rules needed etc. in the rulebook?
(so what I'm trying to say... if I went for the £84 'The Regide' pledge that would be enough for a mate and I to play with nothing else?)

The starter boxes do contain everything you need for a basic army but it is just a basic army you will want more stuff in time. From what I remember the optimum level for the game has been speculated to be around the 20 to 40 figure mark depending on how elite or otherwise your army is. Which is not too bad considering the cost of the figures.

But yeah for 2 players the Razide level looks to be an ideal starting point.

Starters are supposed to be balanced against each other.



I wonder how big the alternate Everasseur is going to be?
And pleas dont change the praetorian from how the art looks, its still very much upp to date and perfect as it is IMO.

Bubbalicious wrote:
I wonder how big the alternate Everasseur is going to be?

This. I want to see size comparisons of all the stuff actually.

There is a size comparison of a legionnaire to a warmachine figure on their facebook page.

@ Cergorach, you are talking c..p again.

Have you ran any successful KS project? Because you sound like you been there and you got t-shirt...

Compare WZR KS to this:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wildwestexodus/wild-west-exodus-sci-fi-western-miniatures-game.

1. Prodos is working with fans on design, rules.. they don't. The Prodos response is just fantastic!
2. Prodos has more renders of models/ minis to show that them. They constantly pumping out pictures of models or wips...
3. Prodos once hit stretch goal, the "green light is on" for new models/renders!, they show you WIP and as you for your opinion. They don't. The WWX says : "All second wave models, stretch goals and unlocked items will fall into the work flow schedule just days after the campaign successfully funds" ... SO who is more proactive.

IN FACT SHOW ME ONE, JUST ONE MINIATURE KS WHERE YOU HAD WIPS AND YOU COULD PUT YOUR 2 CENTS TO DESIGN TEAM.

4. Also Prodos answer about new renders (from KS page):

"Prodos: Correct me if I am wrong, but Kickstarter is meant to allow a company to 'kickstart' their project, if we had it all up front, why would we and more importantly ethically should we use kickstarter. Surely if we could do it already, why do we need or use Kickstarter. I personally (mark) feel that the concept of Kickstarter has mutated in recent months, we at Prodos want to use it as it was designed. It may cost us some investment, but our approach to our company and the position it fits in the market has to have an ethically right position (we are not a company, for example, that wants to steal business from the big boys, why, equally should we cheat you the customer or the concept of Kickstarter, by using it as a pre-order service. That is not the nature of KS). As such when we hit the stretched goals we will invest in the projects they release."
5. They managed to get to £50k in a week! If you can better send them your CV.
6. And if you such a big fan of Warzone go to their Facebook and post your worries there instead trolling here and scaring off peoples interested in Mutant Chronicles and Warzone - potential Warzne Gamers.. you are not helping with your BS.

brynolf wrote:

Bubbalicious wrote:
I wonder how big the alternate Everasseur is going to be?

This. I want to see size comparisons of all the stuff actually.

there is:



I wonder how big the alternate Everasseur is going to be

40mm

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

brynolf wrote:

Bubbalicious wrote:
I wonder how big the alternate Everasseur is going to be?

This. I want to see size comparisons of all the stuff actually.

there is:



I wonder how big the alternate Everasseur is going to be

40mm

Yes, I've seen that. Still would like to see more of different models.

 rob_alderman wrote:
Here's the alternate 'Everasseur'.

Ooh, that thing's awesome. I like the helmet re-design. Looks like it's going to be fun to paint up.

I had completely forgotten that Étoiles were supposed to be Art capable, hence their grouping in such an elite formation.

It's been a while, but I'm guessing that many Art-capable males must have been whisked away by the Brotherhood, from across many megacorps?

That new Everasseur is gorgeous. Can't wait to get to add another corp though.

If they succeed as well as Kicktraq loosely predicts, even the lower expectations (around 200K£) they might introduce another faction. Rather than further flesh out the existing ones. I think it would make sense and represent less of a cliff for future releases to catch up to the existing factions.

I dont think they will introduce another faction more then Capitol, not for release in June anyways.
May be to much work and to little time for the resources at their disposal to have it all finished in sufficient quantity by release if you ad another faction in there.

The official stance is to wait with Imperial and Mishima until... well, probably christmas at the earliest. That's not to say that they won't change their minds if we throw millions of £ at them during the KS though...

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I had completely forgotten that Étoiles were supposed to be Art capable, hence their grouping in such an elite formation.

It's been a while, but I'm guessing that many Art-capable males must have been whisked away by the Brotherhood, from across many megacorps?

That new Everasseur is gorgeous. Can't wait to get to add another corp though.

If they succeed as well as Kicktraq loosely predicts, even the lower expectations (around 200K£) they might introduce another faction. Rather than further flesh out the existing ones. I think it would make sense and represent less of a cliff for future releases to catch up to the existing factions.

Yeah, the Etoile are unique in that they are an art-capable unit that isn't part of the Brotherhood. This is because, before Cybertronic enters the picture and causes Bauhaus some inner-turmoil, Bauhaus was basically the favourite corporation of the Brotherhood (the Cardinal is a Bauhauser as I recall, and Bauhaus as a faction, are quite devout). One of the perks of being a favourite were actually allowing art-users to be trained outside the Brotherhood.

So while many young initiates were still whisked away by the Brotherhood, the Etoile Mortant were an elite few that passed the rigorous standards of being in the Bauhaus special forces and being art-capable. They are a neat unit, all told, and I think it would be more logical for them to be co-ed given the unit's history. But either way, they will make for some great head-swap opportunities with the rest of the line even if they end up being all female. Though if they make them co-ed, I kind of hope they do the same for other units in the megacorps. A can at least see why they didn't go that route with Chasseurs (would have been hard to do it without making a topless pin-up model cyborg lady), but with things like Hussars and other, more conventional infantry, a simple head-swap would be perfect. But I have a feeling the all-female thing is pretty engrained in them now, so I'm not putting all my hopes in the co-ed EM basket.

As for Kicktraq's prediction, I don't know if we have stable enough numbers to know how accurate that's going to be yet. Yesterday seems like we may finally be starting to see the lower bounds (though I am certain some days will see far less than even £300). But it could also be slowdown in anticipation of the beta rules. There is also the little thing that it may also be lower than expected since they lost a backer who was allegedly in for £300. Too many variables and not enough data points yet. I am quite surprised it has managed so long with £2000-4000 days and that it knocked down so many initial stretch goals so early. We'll see what next week brings and how the flow of it goes.

But my current expectations are that it probably wont have to many more days at the £1000+ mark from now until the final week. One of the things about 60-day kickstarters is that their cycles can sometimes be quite exaggerated and that during the middle, the more spread out timeframe can make them utterly crawl. This is why it is so important for them to have a good start (which Prodos had) so that instead of crawling toward actually funding, they are crawling toward whatever highly anticipated stretch goal is up next (my guess is everyone is probably hoping for Capitol).

So as of right now, I think Kicktraq is still predicting on the high side and we wont have a better idea until the end of week 2. My prediction is that it will probably end in and around the £80k to £150k mark (with a possible allowance for a £200k if the end-run starts to get crazy). I think it is a pretty sure thing that we will end up seeing Capitol get funded, but whether we hit £100k or not is a little fuzzy. But 60-day KS's are really hard to predict because they go on so long and can have unpredictable doldrums and out of nowhere windfalls. But I think the initial push is finally calming down and it will settle in to a mild rhythm until the end is in sight. Then it is the normal craziness of almost every Kickstarter ever.

The best we can do now is pimp it out to all that we can tell. One of my gaming buddies who is moving back to town this summer is already in on the Brotherhood (maybe I'll give him my Arch Primates?) though my other WZ-playing friend in town is an Imperial/Cresentian player so he may be a bit of a hard sell unless he likes the look of Capitol or decides to start up Dark Legion (he does have a Chaos army... that may work).

OK, this page's dumb question: When are the products pledged for actually going to be released? Couldn't find it anywhere on the page..

It should say under the pledge reward levels on the right when they will be available. And they all say "Estimated delivery: Jun 2013"

 Pacific wrote:
OK, this page's dumb question: When are the products pledged for actually going to be released? Couldn't find it anywhere on the page..

Their delivery date is listed as June 2013. But keep in mind that this is always a best guess when running a Kickstarter. As stretch goals open up, the project becomes more complex which may stretch the timeline a bit. June 2013 is basically assuming that the project only makes the required £35k and that all they really need to do is get the core for Bauhaus designed (plus some extra time on top, just in case). But I can see the initial release getting pushed back a few months if we manage to hit the goal for plastic core kits and the like, because they would need to re-tool the designs a bit and also wait on whoever is doing their plastic casting. Same goes for if they reach the level where they throw in Capitol.

With the way this thing is going June is probably stretching it a bit. But for all I know they are organizational/planning masters and will still get it done by then. But if this thing continues to do well, I expect a few months of delays. But I'm okay with that, I waited nearly a decade for it already after all.

 god.ra wrote:

Cergorach wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

Yeah, those are definitely Renedra; basically the same company that did GW's plastics until GW bought their own equipment several years back.

Hahahah!!!

No! Absolutely no! Renedra is run by ex-GW employees, Renedra has never produced anything for GW, and GW has had their plastic manufacturing in house for a long, long time. Far, far longer then a couple of years. Renedra would simply never had the capacity to produce the number of sprues/molds GW required, even in the early days of GW. I would estimate that GW has done their plastics in house for two decades, maybe even longer.

.

Man, again check your "source data" ... as you talking c..p

Go to Renedra Website and click on HISTORY.

qoute : "...10 years later in 1985 I started my own Toolmaking business in Wisbech and one of my first customers was Games Workshop who were in their early stages of Plastic miniatures. In 1998 GW bought out my business and I continued working for them until I took retirement in February 2007."

Yeah, I posted this and more info several posts ago but was quickly ignored

It's well known that GW didn't do their own plastics in-house for a very long time, Terry Ardener tooled and produced their plastics. GW announced in WD when they bought Terry's company - as an investment, as the manufacturing facilities stayed where they were and none of the staff changed, the company just became owned by GW - and he stayed on as head of their plastics division, until he retired and started Renedra in 2007. Why did he retire? Because GW mothballed the pantograph machines and bought all new tooling equipment (slide-core and CAD, etc). So when I said it's "basically" the same company, it is. The same guy who started and ran all of GW's plastics for 20 years owns and operates Renedra. So, technically, the company "Renedra" did not make GW figs, but the guy who ran GW's plastics for 20 years did make GW figs, and he owns and operates Renedra.

So let me officially admit my mistake and amend my statement from
"Yeah, those are definitely Renedra; basically the same company that did GW's plastics until GW bought their own equipment several years back."
to
"Yeah, those are definitely Renedra; basically the same guy that did GW's plastics for 20 years until GW bought newer equipment in 2007."

Maybe I'm dumb, but why does every kickstarter have to make hundreds of thousands of dollars to be considered successful?

I would be very confused if I were a creator of one of these Kick-started games, and was told by a potential customer that they weren't going to support my project because it didn't make enough money... Even though it made more than I expected.

@those suggesting they can buy/use the old Warzone minis, Go for it! Dig up some monopose Citadel minis for your GW games while you are at it.

I am all for new concepts and new models.
The abilities of miniature sculptors have moved forward greatly in the past 20+ years I have been playing games.
I play based on the rules working for me, and the models looking good to me.
The old Warzone minis always came across as a parody/lampoon of the GW style at the time.
The universe was interesting, and the rules were neat. But the models...

This looks like an interesting project, and if I weren't playing Warmachine/Hordes/Malifaux/Dystopian Legions/Infinity right now it could snag me. The new concepts have the old-school feel with a current technique/aesthetic.
I hope they finish out the KS with a strong stable of launch products. If they catch my eye well enough on the store shelves, I'll end up having some.

 skrulnik wrote:
Maybe I'm dumb, but why does every kickstarter have to make hundreds of thousands of dollars to be considered successful?

I would be very confused if I were a creator of one of these Kick-started games, and was told by a potential customer that they weren't going to support my project because it didn't make enough money... Even though it made more than I expected.

People like free stuff?

Though stretch goals can backfire if some pledger are banking on it and it doesnt come to pass (the recent Goblin KS for instance), though those seem to be rare


Perhaps in the case of Warzone, whatever locked faction could be a barrier if people who are only interested in that faction are waiting

I finally went ahead and pledged at Cartel lvl, why because unlike some of the people complaining about the KS for me in Japan the chances of getting the stuff at the not very friendly-totally not local-GS are close to nill. Now I have more than enough options to get two or three factions to spread the love of the game here.

I can understand someone not pledging because they want to support the game at their FLGS but jezz! complaining about S&H? Welcome to what some of us usually have to pay when we order stuff online.

M.

I would be very confused if I were a creator of one of these Kick-started games, and was told by a potential customer that they weren't going to support my project because it didn't make enough money... Even though it made more than I expected.

I don't think anyone is saying that. I think people are saying that the reason it's not making more money is because people are not backing it, because many people don't see the value. "Where is the Weenie?"

Right now the project is funded, and it's doing ok, there is lots of time left. The issue is that honestly for a lot of people there is little incentive to fund the project. People can throw around all the altruistic reasons that they want, and claim that you should fund the project so that you can see it succeed. That's great and all, but it's just not enough for many people.

I've pledged only for the rules so far. The Vulkan looks kind of tempting.....but besides that, I'm not really impressed with the miniatures and I think the pricing (for miniatures that I'm not really impressed with) is pretty absurd, especially for a kickstarter. They want us to pledge in advance for very average miniatures, for a game we have no real idea about, and one that has folded repeatedly.

This is what you would call risk and reward time. I just don't see a reward worth the risk, and I don't see Protos risking anything either. There is very little discount and in the case of US backers, we may well end up paying more for them now, then we would later.

Again, it obviously isn't failing, but I think it could do better.

Even if they stay in resin though... they look pretty good for that medium.

A friend of mine has been tapped to paint store copies of Dystopian Legions and he says those are really, really bad...

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Even if they stay in resin though... they look pretty good for that medium.

A friend of mine has been tapped to paint store copies of Dystopian Legions and he says those are really, really bad...

Resin is a hard sell for a lot of people, especially new gamers. But even barring that, just looking at the miniatures, the detail is nice, actually it looks very nice, but the poses are very bland and I get the feeling that if you have more than one box you are going to be repeating. Yes, I know there are lots and lots of combinations, but those combinations don't seam to change the pose much. The undead legionnaires all basically in the same boring non action pose, the chasseurs are all pretty much in the same boring non action pose, the brotherhood troopers are at least doing something....not sure what though.

Of all the miniatures we have seen, there are maybe 4 that are even in a shooting position or aggressive pose? Everybody is just kind of standing around.

The strength of monopose miniatures is that you usually get a very evocative pose, many times something you can't get with multi pose kits. The advantage of mulitpose miniatures is you can get a variety of poses so your minis don't all look the same. These are somewhere in the middle, where you get limited, boring poses.

Now it could be that they started with organic models, undead legionaries and chasseurs. Making flesh and muscles multipose is much harder than on armored men. Even then, the current poses, or at least what they have shown of them are very milquetoast. I'm hoping to be proven wrong.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
and one that has folded repeatedly.

And the reasons for that have been given: it didn't fail because of the quality of the game, it apparently failed for reasons not even related to it. If you believe what's been said then the game was actually pretty successful, and popular enough for GW to actually decrease prices to try and compete with it, and was at the height of its popularity when the company went under.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
and one that has folded repeatedly.

And the reasons for that have been given: it didn't fail because of the quality of the game, it apparently failed for reasons not even related to it. If you believe what's been said then the game was actually pretty successful, and popular enough for GW to actually decrease prices to try and compete with it, and was at the height of its popularity when the company went under.

It's failed more than once, it just has a bad track record.

There is also more than one reason the game failed.
One of the reasons it failed was inconsistent miniatures that ranged from superb to down right goofy.
1st edition the rules were not solid, too easy to exploit, terrible close combat rules. The game was unfun unless you house rulled the hell out of it.....but then it was great!
2nd edition again, the rules
UWZ, Rules were good, army building was funky, no ability to really put out a real product.
The less said about the fantasy flight game the better.
I never played the doomtrooper card game.....anybody know if that was any good?

Now I don't know if good miniatures or better rules would have saved it from the financial crash of its parent company, but a track record is a track record. What do we even know about protos?

Well its obviously clear what Andrew1975 is hoping for with his continuous negativity!

For those of you that want this to succeed we have just reached the 150% of target pledge. As a thankyou something extra is coming very soon!

(BTW Prodos see 150% of target in less than 10 days as a big success). We already have Bauhaus, new characters, new dice and new units. And lots more to come!

I should think, by definition, reaching the goal amount means success for the kickstarter at least, and that anything beyond that is...well, bigger success.

Of course, that doesn't mean the game itself will automagically be successful, too, but so far I quite like the minis, I'm interested in the card bit after watching the video, and... well, we'll just have to wait to see the rules.

Prodos wrote:
Well its obviously clear what Andrew1975 is hoping for with his continuous negativity!

For those of you that want this to suceed we have just reached the 150% of target pledge. As a thankyou something extra is coming very soon!

(BTW Prodos see 150% of target in les than 10 days as a big success). We already have Bauhaus, new characters, new dice and new units. And lots more to come!

Haha, touche and snap! I'm in at 249.

 RatBot wrote:
I should think, by definition, reaching the goal amount means success for the kickstarter at least, and that anything beyond that is...well, bigger success.

Of course, that doesn't mean the game itself will automagically be successful, too, but so far I quite like the minis, I'm interested in the card bit after watching the video, and... well, we'll just have to wait to see the rules.

Agreed! Completely!

Andrew1975 wrote:
Of all the miniatures we have seen, there are maybe 4 that are even in a shooting position or aggressive pose? Everybody is just kind of standing around.

It's a matter of taste of course but I personally think it's boring if all miniatures would have shooting or aggressive poses (which would make every miniature look kind of the same). I believe Prodos at large have done a great job at catching the character of the minis with their poses and so on. The brotherhood troopers seem to advance quite aggressively without showing any fear or remorse as the true fanatics they are (which I'd say is fluffy). Chasseures look calculating and quite calm which fits someawhat emotionless cyborgs, Angelika, as the seasoned commander I suppose she is, reminds me of that hardened sergant from apocalypse now (the "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" dude) in her calmness and so on... And this far we've only seen a couple of actual miniatures, probably assembled to match the renders so that we should be able to judge the quality of the cast to the render.

Prodos wrote:Well its obviously clear what Andrew1975 is hoping for with his continuous negativity!

For those of you that want this to suceed we have just reached the 150% of target pledge. As a thankyou something extra is coming very soon!

(BTW Prodos see 150% of target in les than 10 days as a big success). We already have Bauhaus, new characters, new dice and new units. And lots more to come!

I don't see in what universe your KS could be considered a failure or even close to it! The KS is funded and have reached a number of streach-goals, have plenty of time to go and seem to have a growing dedicated fanbase. at least I'm seeing new faces at the FB-page every now and then, willing to share their thoughts and support!

And I'll be eagerly awaiting this "little extra"!

As a big thank you to all pledgers (old or new) and to celebrate making 150% of our stretched goal. All pledgers of 'Razide' level or above will recieve this fellow for free. He is very limited edition and will only be available on Kicksarter (for the next 52 days). If you want to buy more copies please add £4 per copy to your pledge.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Hopefully that will silence the stupid complaints about the lack of free stuff.

Nice one Prodos, not sure what I'll do with him though.

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:
Hopefully that will silence the stupid complaints about the lack of free stuff.

Oh, that optimism...

It's also a Kickstarter exclusive, for the "I see no reason to pledge" crowd. But I imagine that won't be good enough either. We need MOAR.

Just paint him up beautifully and post a pic here on the forum for us to admire ;D

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:
Hopefully that will silence the stupid complaints about the lack of free stuff.

Oh, that optimism...

It's also a Kickstarter exclusive, for the "I see no reason to pledge" crowd. But I imagine that won't be good enough either. We need MOAR.

Sadly you're probably right (thanks for creating excessive expectations for every kickstarter campaign CMON), still though it's a nice gesture from Prodos to include a freebie like that.

Nice one! I always liked that picture, will be exiting to see Prodos interpretation of that guy! Also fun to see what might come from the other factions (and an incentive to get a small mishima force when they are released as well )!

The Mishima Doomtrooper announcement made me increase my pledge to Dark Legion and more...

I always loved that mini, here is my old take on the even older mini:

Damn that was nice. You got realy good painting skills. Show us more

I'll say it again because people don't seem to understand in general where Andrew and others are coming from.

The kickstarter actually costs Americans more than if we wait for release right now. Even with the additional fig we break even (only at the Razide level) without shipping but are right back to paying more with shipping.

The kickstarter is successful. But Andrew, like me, probably doesn't like seeing a kickstarter fall short of it's potential and the way this kickstarter is being run is falling short of that potential.

There is no cost break for pre-ordering. No cost break for quantity.. Very, very few kickstarter exclusives (up to 3 if you go dark legion and pick Cyber's as one of your starters). And while people are touting the community feedback like that makes up for the the above remember other kickstarters have taken community feedback and still managed to do much of the above.

But, like a few people on the Facebook page have pointed out it seems they are fine with not maximizing their potential on this. And bear in mind that's most of the argument. They aren't maximizing which to me impacts their success, making their kickstarter less successful. Not unsuccessful but definitely less successful if that makes sense.

And Andrew's complaints are valid as a backer. I'm not backing because of all of the above personally. I refuse to pay more than retail for a product from a company I haven't heard of before that's producing a game that's failed before.

Prodos wrote:
Well its obviously clear what Andrew1975 is hoping for with his continuous negativity!

Not cool man. Not cool.

Especially for a company rep.

I didn't see anywhere that he wished for it to fail. Just that it (the KS) didn't have value for him yet.

I'm not a big fan of the new aesthetic either, and might not pledge for more than the rulebook and possibly a few single minis. We'll see if it becomes more enticing to me (and others, obviously) in the next 50-odd days.

~Eric

Hulksmash and andrew1975

Don't take it personally. I think we are all still suffering from KS overload. Everyone is expecting huge freebies with each kickstarter going out there, and THAT is not what it's about. Would it help to get more Capitol for the business? Yes. But it can also hurt if they start trying for too much and get buried in trying to give free stuff, free shipping and everything else. Kickstarters are feeling some pain from outside forces due to shipping increases and delays outside their control. If they know they can provide X for Y and be viable afterwards, then why shoot for the moon? Let them go with their plan. If people are willing to pre-order for close to full retail because they love the game, great. The KS is about getting the gam back out there, let them do that without the armchair quarterbacking as there's stuff behind the scenes we are not privy to.

Am I backing it? No....not because of shipping or no freebies, but because I never got into the esthetics of it, like how I don't like the look of PP.

I am a huge fan of Dreamforge and Marks designs, did I back it for the discount? Possibly, but mainly to get the product to market.

I wish Prodos luck, looks good even if its not my style.

 Octopussy wrote:
Damn that was nice. You got realy good painting skills. Show us more

Your wish is my command, see here:
http://www.adpublishing.de/html/warzone.html

 Hulksmash wrote:

And Andrew's complaints are valid as a backer. I'm not backing because of all of the above personally. I refuse to pay more than retail for a product from a company I haven't heard of before that's producing a game that's failed before.

Indeed. I was never a superfan of warzone and am not psychologically invested in it so I don't see the sense in paying more for the priveledge of more risk compared with simply just buying it when its in stock. Since when does simply saying that you'll likely buy the product when it hits the shelves turn you into the bad guy? This kickstarter has succeeded in making me and others interested in Warzone for the first time in over a decade (I skipped the last few incarnations/reboots) even if we're not interested in funding an international kickstarter and I consider that to be a success as well.

This really is quality painting, your Mishima force is looking Ace!

One becomes quite nostalgic to watch it

Out of interest, where is this game made? Where are the games designers and sculptors from?

I'm guessing re. the guys ordering from the US, as the KS continues it will gradually become better and better value, to the point where it will steam-roll and then become a better value purchase?

 Pacific wrote:
Out of interest, where is this game made? Where are the games designers and sculptors from?

I'm guessing re. the guys ordering from the US, as the KS continues it will gradually become better and better value, to the point where it will steam-roll and then become a better value purchase?

I'm pretty sure that earlier in the thread the company registration details were quoted as being in the UK. Not sure as to the nationalities of the designers and sculptors, though.

 warboss wrote:

Since when does simply saying that you'll likely buy theproduct when it hits the shelves turn you into the bad guy?

It doesn't, but constantly nagging about it and the reasons why (WHICH WE ALL GOT BY NOW! Sorry don't mean to be rude but we've heard everything by now.) really isn't helping anyone.

 warboss wrote:
This kickstarter has succeeded in making me and others interested in Warzone for the first time in over a decade (I skipped the last few incarnations/reboots) even if we're not interested in funding an international kickstarter and I consider that to be a success as well.

Great, can't we just leave it at that and discuss warzone instead?

Really,

I don't want to come off so negative. I really want this to start of the best that it can. It's a very competitive market, for a game to take off and be successful, well you need to appeal to a large audience and build buzz.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:
Hopefully that will silence the stupid complaints about the lack of free stuff.

Oh, that optimism...

It's also a Kickstarter exclusive, for the "I see no reason to pledge" crowd. But I imagine that won't be good enough either. We need MOAR.

yo dawg, did't you know it's not worth pledging unless the project already has already been funded at 2 million bucks and there's 400 free miniatures at the 1 dollar pledge level

Ok, Andrew1975 it's nice of you to be concerned but I do believe that whatever constructive critique you've put forward got lost in the mass of all your, and all similar to yours, rants. I really don't mean to be rude but I fail to see anything positive coming out of carrying on this cost issue any more. We've heard you, now can we move on?

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
Ok, Andrew1975 it's nice of you to be concerned but I do believe that whatever constructive critique you've put forward got lost in the mass of all your, and all similar to yours, rants. I really don't mean to be rude but I fail to see anything positive coming out of carrying on this cost issue any more. We've heard you, now can we move on?

If you notice, most of my posts are replys to other posts. I'm not just throwing negativity waves out there for no reason.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Really,

I don't want to come off so negative. I really want this to start of the best that it can. It's a very competitive market, for a game to take off and be successful, well you need to appeal to a large audience and build buzz.

Out of pure curiosity. What in your opinion is taking of and being successful?


And on Warzone related:
I might be the only on that thinks this... But i would relay like to see a total redesign of Golgotha, both the original art and the model were ugly as hell! I still feel like i want to throw a brick at my screen just to make the pic disappear and never com back!

Woot, a free Mishima troop that also happens to be a Doomtrooper! That means it is useful to all of us (well, except Dark Legion), since the Cartel was always the ally-heavy faction that could loan stuff out to corps. Now Tatsumoto just needs a ranged-specialist partner and we have a proper two-man Doomtrooper team. Do I smell potential for a hard-bitten Imperial Doomtrooper done up as a Blood Beret (and together they fight... well zombies and demons)?

I think that lack of free stuff isn't a problem. Real problem is that we havn't seen painted miniatures.

Or rules, but i think we will se both tomorrow.
If i remember this correct, they said they would have game play vids monday 25 and they are most likely going to have painted figs for that. Think it was Worthy painting that were doing the painting.

Yes I remember it too. I asked them. For me painted miniatures are more important than rules beacause propably i won't have anyone to play with for a long time.

That would be amazing future incentives. One off minis of other mega-corps for the doomtrooper feel of it.

I vote Yea.

I could be wrong, but you might have to wait a bit longer for painted minis. Not much longer though, hopefully!

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:

It doesn't, but constantly nagging about it and the reasons why (WHICH WE ALL GOT BY NOW! Sorry don't mean to be rude but we've heard everything by now.) really isn't helping anyone.

*snip*

Great, can't we just leave it at that and discuss warzone instead?

Sure, just remember to PM the people "supporting" the kickstarter that keep sarcastically bringing it up again like.. you know.. these folks

 judgedoug wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:
Hopefully that will silence the stupid complaints about the lack of free stuff.

Oh, that optimism...

It's also a Kickstarter exclusive, for the "I see no reason to pledge" crowd. But I imagine that won't be good enough either. We need MOAR.

yo dawg, did't you know it's not worth pledging unless the project already has already been funded at 2 million bucks and there's 400 free miniatures at the 1 dollar pledge level

The topic was dead for several pages until the "supporters" wanted to supposedly prove how wrong those who aren't pledging are.

You have to realize that people want to know how they minis would look like. 3D renders ain't telling nothing at all how minis look like.It would be enough to see only one painted miniatures. Than it would be easier to imagine how miniatures transfer from renders into reality.

Ah well, it wouldn't be a Kickstarter thread without the same sentiments being written for page after page!

As long as there are some snippets of news though, and newcomers to the thread can have their questions answered (as mine were) then I think all is well.

Right anyway! I'm now in for this, pledged at the 'Razide' level which seems like a reasonable amount of minis and the rulebook. I'm a sucker for reading big rulebooks and painting stuff, even if I never get to play a game (have got an absolute pile of stuff that can fit that category unfortunately :( )

Dystartes wrote:I'm pretty sure that earlier in the thread the company registration details were quoted as being in the UK. Not sure as to the nationalities of the designers and sculptors, though.

Ok thanks for that. Not sure why I had the impression before that it was a US game though? Was it more popular over the other side of the pond previously?

Pak0 wrote:
You have to realize that people want to know how they minis would look like. 3D renders ain't telling nothing at all how minis look like.It would be enough to see only one painted miniatures. Than it would be easier to imagine how miniatures transfer from renders into reality.

Miniatures also take time to produce and paint up.


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 Pacific wrote:


Ok thanks for that. Not sure why I had the impression before that it was a US game though? Was it more popular over the other side of the pond previously?

Prodos Games is a UK based company, Leamington Spa, South Warwickshire to be more precise! AFAIK, it is 3 guys at the moment, Mark who is from the UK, Jarek who is from Poland and lives in the UK and Michal who lives in Poland. Then there's all the wordy people that talk about it like myself who aren't part of the company, but friends with the guys that are!

Warzone, as I understand, was more popular in mainland Europe than in the UK and was even a Swedish game.

Does that help?

 Pacific wrote:
Ok thanks for that. Not sure why I had the impression before that it was a US game though? Was it more popular over the other side of the pond previously?

As Rob said, it was originally a Swedish game that was an outgrowth of the RPG Mutant (which later morphed in to Mutant: Rymd and then Mutant Chronicles proper). It was apparently quite popular in mainland Europe and also had a fairly good North American following (my own anecdotal proof being that my LGS actually carried it, they tend to carry only GW and have only recently started branching out when WM/H and Malifaux got really popular). I also seem to recall that Poland is actually one of the still actinve Doomtrooper communities as well (Doomtrooper was the CCG), but I may be misremembering or out of date at this point.

Warzone was hugely popular in the Western US. With tons of tourneys and stand alone events being run at cons!

So the demise of Target was hard felt out here.

I would love to see a system that allows a few Doomtroopers go against a whole army of necromutants.. The older game had only a few nice looking miniatures but over all I think this is the reason for their demise. The new models look great and considering how much I want to pledge.

Damn those Imperial Blood Beret Captains with zillion actions and 5 wounds shooting their Nimrod one handed on the poor legionarie hordes.

M.

I just hope, Mishima players don't have to pledge for a Bauhaus army to get their most prominent hero miniature.

Does a Brotherhood army pledge count ?

M.

I’m going to chime in here… I loved old Warzone, this looks good… it give a warm feeling of nostalgia and hope that as a gamer I’ll have more choices.
But…

Every complaint posted here has a right to be posted.
And I agree with some…

I don’t see value in supporting this KS. If it hits selves or can be ordered via 20% discount after they strike a distribution deal than maybe I’ll buy a box to look over . but why toss money to the winds on this right now?

Hear me out on this… KS is to get a product to market. (to me and why I promote certain I.P.s)
If these guys were going to already be producing the product regardless of the KS, then all it is for is to get them to a comfort zone for producing plastics and Not the production of other forces… You think that Paradox Entertainment is going to give these guys the Green light if they were not ready to fully drop the entire Warzone I.P. on you? Don’t be so naïve… every army and character is planned to be released. Your funding “might” hasten that but I Doubt it… and mark my words… every force will have basic plastic troops with or without this KS being a big “Success”

The offers they make in freebies (which is a huge draw to a KS) are meager at best.. I’ll get better value from buying this once it hits selves because I’m not seeing any other incentive to back this? I don’t need 400+++ free minis at the $1 pledge level, but if I’m giving you money to hold to get you off the ground I expect a return on my investment… and at the end of the day that’s what ever single backer is… an investor… expecting a return with interest.

I’ll just wait to “test out” the new warzone when I can get it a decent price (which will be 20% off) unless they make my “return” worth my “investment”
But regardless this game was going to be made with or without the KS… Regardless All future armies will have plastic core troops(mark my words) …. This is a Promo cash push… and that’s cool I Do Not Knock That… but is they want my money they need to start handing out the goodies. Why..? Because even without me investing or you or you or even YOU…. This was going to happen… I’m not blind

All that being said I hope Prodos and Paradox Find great success with Warzones return to the gaming industry. If the imperial line looks good I might buy some especially if they remake awesome trenchers love the Imperial force.

Go Ahead and drop you well worded attacks…

But remember, we are the investors and expect a return…

that return is cool free stuff… or being really cheap… this has neither… It’ll cost 1.50 to produce the 5 man plastic sprue once the molds are done maybe less… they should give it some thought.

other wise… it’s just a store with long shipping delays…

 5deadly wrote:

Go Ahead and drop you well worded attacks…

You misspelled hear

 5deadly wrote:

Here me out on this…

Fixed... Thanks man!