All I want are Imperial Trenchers, so I'm still on the fence

But look whether you like it or not, this KS is still chugging along. It may not be hitting stretch goal after stretch goal every day and might not have the same price to model ratio as some other games, but so far it is outpacing many other miniature KS currently going on (I suppose nostalgia helps). So whatever they're doing, it's working. Maybe not as fast as some people here want it to be, but still going nevertheless and I'm sure it'll hit some of those higher goals no matter how much back and forth banter goes on around here

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
do not like multiposed, multipart models in general

Careful dude, you're in one of the biggest 40k/warhammer communities on the net!

If this was TMP, quite a lot more people will agree with you. But this is smack dab in the middle of "Multipart Plastic Galore" territory. Might not want to mention that when many other people have been clamoring for multipart models on this very thread

 kenshin620 wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
do not like multiposed, multipart models in general

Careful dude, you're in one of the biggest 40k/warhammer communities on the net!

If this was TMP, quite a lot more people will agree with you. But this is smack dab in the middle of "Multipart Plastic Galore" territory. Might not want to mention that when many other people have been clamoring for multipart models on this very thread

I know that, but this is my opinion and I stand by it.

Beta Rules :
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9SxXmqAnzM-QUlKYjhnWnFsR28/edit?usp=sharing
Beta Cards:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9SxXmqAnzM-blNkQmJ0eGhSZG8/edit?usp=sharing

I really like the layout and the rules are simple but concise on the first read through. I haven't looked at the cards but I like the idea. I'm not much of a "card gamer" other than poker but this game looks good.

Thank you!

 5deadly wrote:
@ Ronin_eX
Once again for the most part I’m done… there making styrene if imperial looks good I might buy some. I said that before… not looking to be Loyalist vs. Dissidence… I’m one who questions, researches and examines if I have doubts… my doubts have not subsided but I do have a better idea and I’m sure opened a few eyes.
But just because you or anyone else comes on and says “stop questioning the thing I currently like!” doesn’t mean I have to… I’m not flameing… matter of fact the responses to me are more flaming and trollish undertones than anything I’ve really said. You just don’t like my doubts or questions so you take it personal.
I understand and it’s ok. I’m done anyway for now…

You, you didn't read my post did you?

I never called you a troll, though I did think you were posting questions in a churlish manner. Because they didn't immediately answer your questions you started acting like you were entitled to 100% transparency. And instead of asking plainly you challenged them to answer your question lest "more people drop this".

And comments like:

Side note... I wonder why such a good I.P. like Warzone keeps sinking? Oh thats right... I remember now.

Don't make you sound like a reasonable human being.

Plenty of others have posted questions and concerns in very constructive ways (and been attacked for it unfortunately). You were doing so in a somewhat less than friendly manner and came off more combative than concerned.

You may have noticed in the rest of my post I was actually calling for people to allow others to post their concerns without dog piling them. Part of the reason for all of the bellyaching is that no one can let anything go and if someone states they don't want to back the thing they come under fire. Everyone is just doubling down on their point instead of being open to other opinions. My post was about everybody taking a step back. Realize that Prodos may not have all the answers yet (they were only just getting quotes on plastics last week for instance) and that if someone isn't backing the KS then they aren't "the other side" (most of them will just be picking it up after). For those of us backing it, we have our own reasons and the people choosing not to back don't have to share them. Likewise to those not backing, feel free to ask questions if you still have them, but a lot of posts started to border on "people backing this are just easily duped rubes" territory as everyone retreated to their trenches.

At this point, most of the people left in this thread are MC/WZ fans, it's easy to forget that and want to go tribal and draw a line in the sand. But most of us are fans (though I know some in the thread are just interested in a new property they aren't really familiar with either). So my post was more a call to everyone to cool down and stop acting like there needed to be an us vs. them thing going on. Ask your questions and be respectful, and those who are content shouldn't feel the need to argue every point of those who still have questions. Those of us who are backing and fine with the project should be using this thread to chat about the game and updates. People don't need to engage and nitpick every bloody post. That is what is getting tiresome.

Edit - Either way, I'm dropping this line of conversation now. I have no interest in chasing things in circles.

Simple rules, easy to follow. The cards will change it up. Can't wait now to see sample army lists to try them out.

I have a friend coming over on wednesday... hint, hint.

Argh, it's killing me that I can't give them a read right now at work. I'll probably give 'em a quick print-off at the end of the night though and maybe give them a try when things get a bit less hectic around here.

It's like 1st edition with some slight changes, and only 2 actions per model. Card system seems very neat, intuitive way to add some flavor. D20 system is roughly equivalent to the old system.

I gave it a quick read and so far I'm against the cards as they currently stand. Playing a MtG game in paralel to WZ is not my cup of tea. Plus rule number 10.2. You lose if you run out of cards should be scrapped, if you want to limit game length use turns not deck size.

M.

@Ronin_eX
let it go man...

@ Prodos
Peoples volunteers and Machinators for Cybertronic... the last set of concepts being done for Cybertronic are dead on... you bring those 2 in plastic and I'm sold. Same for imperial trenchers take some smart backend engineering and you could do the trencher with the same long shoulder coats and everything...

I like what I see so far. Interested in seeing vehicle rules (I noticed an "Anti-vehicle value" stat). I'm not sure that running out of cards will be an issue; a deck of 60, draw five at the start of the game, and then you have 55 cards left; it says you can spend a resource to draw a card at any point. Even if you can do more than one per turn (say someone does five per turn starting with turn 1), that's still something like 8 turns.

As for the cards themselves, I like them, I think they'll add a lot of flavor to the game. That's just my opinion, of course.

Still, exhausting a deck makes for a random game length and we know how much people complained when GW brought that in 5th ed.

Plus if you have to discard cards at different speeds due to luck, card powers, etc, that might encourage the side that it's loosing to drag the game on to hopefully win by making the other side to go through its deck before objectives are won.

M.

EDIT: Double post oh god how did this get here oh god I am not good with computer

EDIT EDIT: Uh... weird, not a double post?

Anyway, random game length never bothered me, and I never heard anyone complain about it, but I wasn't really on any forums back then.

Still, I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep if they changed it to just reshuffling your discard pile and starting again, or even just playing without the cards.

 judgedoug wrote:
It's like 1st edition with some slight changes, and only 2 actions per model. Card system seems very neat, intuitive way to add some flavor. D20 system is roughly equivalent to the old system.

Ah so they did go to two actions. I think that's actually probably a smart move on their part. It still allows them to create quick, maneuverable units with three actions without unbalancing things, but allows them to avoid the dangers of four action units. Makes individual activation a bit quicker and prevents the ever-abusable "dick-dance" (move out of total cover, shoot, move back in to total cover). I liked it when Chronopia went to two actions as standard in the 2nd Edition from Excelsior and thought it was a good move. I had a feeling they were going to two actions when I spied Vince's movement stat and it read 6 on the card.

Definitely intrigued to see how that goes in either case.

*stares at clock*

Well only three more hours...

*sigh*

Everything gets 2 actions, heroes and all. There is currently no way to get a 3rd action, unless I missed a card.

 Miguelsan wrote:
I gave it a quick read and so far I'm against the cards as they currently stand. Playing a MtG game in paralel to WZ is not my cup of tea. Plus rule number 10.2. You lose if you run out of cards should be scrapped, if you want to limit game length use turns not deck size.

M.

Yeah, I just got to that part in the rules myself, and that's a game-killer for me...I mean, I play Magic, it's alright, but I'm after something a little different when I set up to play a wargame, you know? The idea of playing Magic: The Gathering but with models just doesn't sound interesting...

Maybe it won't really be that bad, but I was kinda skeptical about the cards to begin with, so I dunno. If there's nothing that forces you to draw cards, like your opponent can't play a bunch of junk that forces you to deck yourself a la Magic, then I imagine losing that way won't happen often unless you do it to yourself, and most games will be decided by the mission. In any case I guess every game has flaws...40k has several, and I was never a big fan of Warmachine's caster kill, either.

Something interesting I noticed:

In the Full version of the game the force composition is:
1. Hero (varying Base sizes). Selected from the rule book or custom made.

"Custom made", that's bound to make some people happy who don't like being forced to take "characters" all the time.

oops. Nevermind

Gave 'em a quick skim and I like things so far (need to delve in to assault a bit more though). The card aspect seems quite interesting (wasn't expecting a deck-building mechanic... that tickles my inner mechanic/number cruncher pink. I love more things to tweak in an army list to make it mine), I like how it interacts with characters as well (resources become hero points, basically and allow them to boost a bit). The only bit I am iffy about is the MtG-style resource aspect. Part of me is wondering if something more akin to Warmachine, with army commanders providing the resources instead of cards might not even things out. Though the game isn't 100% reliant on the card-part (and it is surprsingly easy to disengage it if you wish) a poorly built deck (not enough resources) could lock someone out of the card-part of the game (though starting with resources helps). Something more like Warmachine's Focus-economy may work better (though I will try it before I pass any real judgement), though this would change deck-building quite a bit.

I am actually liking the move to two non-stackable actions (i.e. only perform each action once). It still has the flexibility of Warzone (especially as each model performs separately still, this bit was essential) but removes a lot of the more egregious combos and makes actions like aim worthwhile (though at only a +2 to hit it may be a bit weak, but since it no longer contends with getting to shoot 2-3 times with basic troops, this isn't so horrible). You can still do fire-then-move actions, but move-shot-move is gone which makes full cover a bit less abuseable. Cover still seems like it's important and the added tactical layer of weapon types vs. armour is a nice layer (similar to UWZ though they utilized it less).

Also, thank you for using the simpler weapon system more reminiscent of 1st Edition. I hated the 4-5 range bands with differing numbers of shots and shot strengths. Drove me freaking batty in 2nd Edition (and wasn't completely on board with UWZ's slightly simpler-than-2nd system either; 1st Edition did that bit right the first time).

My only big concern right now is whether the Wait action is simply left out because this is a simplified Beta or if it wont show up in the game. The reaction mechanics were my favourite bits of Warzone. So will they be showing up after more internal testing?

All that said, I'd probably make an option for a card free version just to appease those who dislike it. The game is already fairly decoupled from it as is (just give players the starting number of resources and no decks and things can still boost as normal). I personally love the extra tactical layer it gives, but some people are just vehemently opposed to the idea of cards (look how long Warmachine carried the moniker of "just like MtG" despite only having cards as unit references). So colour me a fan of it, but considering how easy it is to play without, I would probably create a 1-page appendix for people who want to play without. They already know they can house-rule it. But the little thought is always nice.

So far I am liking what I'm seeing. It feels very much like a leaner, meaner 1st Edition with an eye toward balance. That is about exactly where I want the rules to be.

I just hope people don't tear you apart over the action point thing (because honestly I am a fan of the way it is handled). Worked out well for Chronopia 2nd Edition after all.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Kroot, can you show me where he made the claim that those percentages were at the end of the kickstarter?

What you get for your money is determined at the end of the campaign, right? Not after running 20% of the campaign time, right?
And all campaigns (except Avatars of War ) get much much better during the campaign, right?
With price discounts even happening in this campaign after 20% of the campaign time, right?

And always remember: Kickstarters are to fund a project not to drain it of funds. So there are economic limits, how far a project can please people only interested in big discounts.

Dude, I've been extremely polite in this thread. More so than almost everyone replying to me. I'd prefer if you didn't act obtuse. I was obviously giving the current discount on the models at the basic pledge levels. Other kickstarters have started with higher savings out the gate or greater value. The numbers could shift. I've pointed out that if they do I might consider joining. At this point the cost isn't there. I'd also point out that it's unlikely that trooper or character discounts will get better since those are add-ons.

I haven't said big discounts. I've repeatedly only stated costs below what we're likely to be able to get retail. That's not a big discount. That's reasonable for backing and generating interest. Most people just don't want to pay more for something that will be available later for less.

Either way I'll keep looking to see if a change occurs. The models seem pretty solid and the concepts are neat. We'll just have to wait and see.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
I gave it a quick read and so far I'm against the cards as they currently stand. Playing a MtG game in paralel to WZ is not my cup of tea. Plus rule number 10.2. You lose if you run out of cards should be scrapped, if you want to limit game length use turns not deck size.

M.

Yeah, I just got to that part in the rules myself, and that's a game-killer for me...I mean, I play Magic, it's alright, but I'm after something a little different when I set up to play a wargame, you know? The idea of playing Magic: The Gathering but with models just doesn't sound interesting...

Maybe it won't really be that bad, but I was kinda skeptical about the cards to begin with, so I dunno. If there's nothing that forces you to draw cards, like your opponent can't play a bunch of junk that forces you to deck yourself a la Magic, then I imagine losing that way won't happen often unless you do it to yourself, and most games will be decided by the mission. In any case I guess every game has flaws...40k has several, and I was never a big fan of Warmachine's caster kill, either.

Something interesting I noticed:

In the Full version of the game the force composition is:
1. Hero (varying Base sizes). Selected from the rule book or custom made.

"Custom made", that's bound to make some people happy who don't like being forced to take "characters" all the time.

I'm a big fan of the deck out mechanic. It seems well designed to punish people who try to abuse card drawing mechanics to draw their entire deck and see all the cards they want. Helps prevent abuse.

Also I always enjoyed card deck + miniatures systems because it gave each player an unseen element for the game so allows bluffing and surprises. Clan war had a very similar deck system to this game and it worked great.

Having given the rules a quick skim they look pretty good. The cards will definitely spice things up a bit.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
For sake mate, I'm surprised they're even engaging you (and have answered your questions by the by). So far the thread has, what, a couple people who wont be buying in at all and a few who are waiting for the actual release instead of going with the Kickstarter because they don't see the value in this (which is all well and cool and people need to stop treating this like some kind of freaking war crime). But you seem to be taking this whole thing rather seriously.

Heaven forbid people take the spending of hundreds of pounds of money seriously... Support for a Kickstarter is given away far too frivolously by most people, and sooner or later, this attitude will come back to bite you, and then you'll be crying "Why didn't I 'take it seriously' when I had the chance?"

Isoulle wrote:
I'm a big fan of the deck out mechanic. It seems well designed to punish people who try to abuse card drawing mechanics to draw their entire deck and see all the cards they want. Helps prevent abuse.

Also I always enjoyed card deck + miniatures systems because it gave each player an unseen element for the game so allows bluffing and surprises. Clan war had a very similar deck system to this game and it worked great.

That was my first thought, with such a free draw mechanic a good limitation for stacking all the best stuff in your hand is punishing over-drawing. Of course, until I play the game I am still not 100% on the resource mechanics yet. I think a more fixed income would work better, but that is just my gut talking right now. I'll try and get a few games in and see how I feel. I think it might also help if they provide a few examples of a fully built deck to use in test games. Pre-builds are always good for starter games.

But I am at least liking the customization it allows. Should be interesting to see what comes out of it and I can't wait to see some more faction specific cards as well (if they are in the, err, cards).

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Good question, in contrast with the other kickstarters so far this is the first that has IP that is not their, so this is an extra cost,

Mongoose has had Judge Dredd and currently has Rogue Trooper. Which doesn't mean anything specific as we don't know the intricacies of Mongoose's deal with Rebellion or Prodos' deal with Paradox, but people like to keep bandying the "It's licenced, that means they simply can't offer deals!" - so it's worth pointing out. As for deals, they could clearly do better if they chose to, assuming they're going to sell to retailers or even moreso if they plan to sell to wholesalers. They're clearly not choosing to, so c'est la vie.


I'm not a fan of deck building, CCGs or LCGs. I hope there's a proper, fleshed out "no cards" option or I won't be playing this at all. Which would be a shame.

Cards for units, yes why not its a good thing. And this is new for me - cards for tactical manipulation.... OMG yes please. This opens so much possibilities in game. At last non random usable tacticl aspect in a tabletop skirmish game. I love this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Need to playtest it FAST.

Like the Basic beta rules of how the actions work and actions you can take.

Card mechanics seems fine to me (Personally i would use counters on the table instead of having the resource card there and just remove a counter when you spend a resource)
There was no mention in the rules of what all the symbols on the cards mean.
Not really a fan of building your own deck thing. Would have rather seen that each faction had a finished set of deck cards and depending on if you bring unit/character X ,Y you just ad those "special" unit cards to the deck. Have a unit symbol on the cards for easy removal after the game so that changing them out when you change your army list will be simple.

Bubbalicious wrote:
Like the Basic beta rules of how the actions work and actions you can take.

Card mechanics seems fine to me (Personally i would use counters on the table instead of having the resource card there and just remove a counter when you spend a resource)
There was no mention in the rules of what all the symbols on the cards mean.
Not really a fan of building your own deck thing. Would have rather seen that each faction had a finished set of deck cards and depending on if you bring unit/character X ,Y you just ad those "special" unit cards to the deck. Have a unit symbol on the cards for easy removal after the game so that changing them out when you change your army list will be simple.

The card symbols appear on the concept cards at the bottom of section 6. Pawn with a globe is a Strategy Card, just a pawn is a Tactical Card and the wrench is a Gear Card. Resources appear as gear cards (hopefully they get their own symbol eventually to avoid confusions).

So long as they include some kind of default deck-build, I think having deck-building in the game is fine. Players not in to building decks can just set their faction up with the default build and have at 'er, gear-heads can tinker with the deckbuilding and have their fun. I think a pre-build and no-card variant in an appendix would be a great idea, myself. That and include some pre-built deck ideas in each starter to give new players an idea when they get going.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I do not get this thread, from the postage paranoia to everything else.

"Warzone failed a lot, this will too"

By that you mean what? that 4 unrelated wargame rules failed for various unrelated reasons? that the IP failed? that the 5th attempt to bring the IP on the table unrelated to all the others, is destined to fail because? should I assume linage curse or something been involved?

"why give the others free stuff (while they payed over what I will pay), I demand free stuff too"

I will break this down, postage is quite big in this one and affects more than the usual (that is it affects US) a single character model, does not cost much to produce, is nothing to ships and because character models cost much by definition looks like a nice drop in the price of shipping, especially for the US backers who, should be quite a few, why should UK backers be entitled to free stuff intended to make people that are on the fringe for postage fees, when they do not have to pay for it is beyond me, I assume its a good reason why Loka has everybody pay for postage, nobody cries for it, for the record non UK razide backers should be the ones complaining since they pay the same postage fee with dark legion (while DL has 3 boxes) and do not get a free figure.

"why is it so expensive/ not having a gazillion free models"

Good question, in contrast with the other kickstarters so far this is the first that has IP that is not their, so this is an extra cost, maybe they plan on giving more models after some goal they have planned, seriously I do not have an answer here, I do not know what they have in mind or their contracts and do not pretend I know, is 4.99 pound off from RRP worth it? 14, something% is not that bad, rivet wars had 10%, sedition wars had a bit more 11% relic knights I think they never mentioned RRP IIRC, would it benefit to add free extra troops you may or may not use? I quite like the extra models in all kickstarters I have participated, buy in dreadball they had a meaning, in all other they were just extra models, in any case that is purely personal to each one, now another question is is it worth waiting to get it for 20% off discount at the distributor? good question, they would never get in plastic with that attitude, if you love plastic so much, you would get a 20% off resin kit, lets be straight the KS is to turn the models in plastic and establish a community so far it seems it is in line with all other kickstarters in scope and prices.

As some of this is clearly aimed at me and people seem to be missing my point i will make this as clear as i can. The original free mini was tacked onto a stretch goal. I was part of reaching that stretch goal at one point at a pretty high pledge goal. Shipping is a seperate issue to stretch goals in my opinion. I dont actually care about the free mini , plenty of people offered me theirs. Its the fact that i believed in the projecy enough to back it day one at a pretty high level. Then i read strech goal been reached and as a bonus everyone at a certain pledge level gets it if there OS. It felt like a bit of a kick on the teeth after offering my support. I feel there must have been a better way to have addressed this. In addition it was not made crystal clear. Why did they not just clearly staye this offer will not be applicable to residents in the uk i wonder. So if you still havnt got it im not miffed about the free mini but the principal tjat i am excluded from part of a stretch goal i contributed towards. Ok i may be the only UK backer or even potential backer to feel this way but id be willing to bet a substantial amount of cash im not. I am certain this is damaging to their campaign and wish they had not done it as i was quite excited about the project.

I have no problem with the whole card thing. "Confrontation" used to be my wargame of choice for the years that it was alive and kicking, so cards definitely are not a taboo for me.

What I really did not like was the part of the rules that was saying that the game ends when there are no cards left in the deck. I mean, this can be a serious game breaker, especially since we know that there are people that will be more than happy to abuse this rule and transform a miniature game to a CCG one. So, this does particular rule does not get my vote.

The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

 praetor24 wrote:
I have no problem with the whole card thing. "Confrontation" used to be my wargame of choice for the years that it was alive and kicking, so cards definitely are not a taboo for me.

What I really did not like was the part of the rules that was saying that the game ends when there are no cards left in the deck. I mean, this can be a serious game breaker, especially since we know that there are people that will be more than happy to abuse this rule and transform a miniature game to a CCG one. So, this does particular rule does not get my vote.

How can a player abuse it for their own gain though? There are no cards that interact with the enemy deck in any way (only cards to interact with in-play cards). That is one of the big reasons why it isn't anything like a CCG (though again, the more correct term for it would be LCG). In a L/CCG the two decks interact with one another and that is what forms the gameplay. In Warzone, the cards can only interact with in-play cards or the game table (and units on it), itself.

So there is no real way for your opponent to deck you unless the game went on for 40-50 turns of you trickling cards in to your hand.

The decking mechanic is more to limit people rushing through their hand in order to get exactly what they need. Certainly not the only way to do it, mind you, but it could certainly work to discourage burning through ones deck too quickly.

I just can't see how one could abuse the rule for their own gain, though. The card-rules just lack that level of interaction with the decks to pull of things like (to use an MtG term) milling an opponent to death.

Either way, this is a mechanic I am willing to test out in play to see if it actually becomes and issue. But most games wont last long enough to see you through the 55-50 cards (if you mulligan your hand) you would need to delve through in order to actually lose the game like that. Even drawing out five cards a turn (regardless of if you need 'em or not) you will still need 11 or so turns to deck yourself, and drawing at that rate will make it impossible to actually use any of your cards anyways. So no one will do this in general (especially not for 11 turns in a row). I say we give it a fair shake first before deciding we don't need it, because I think it may be a good deterrent for people thinning their deck out by drawing more than they need every turn.

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

That is correct , Sir. The Free mini was a Gift from Prodos as compensation for high P&P.
A Gift ... compensation, not a Stretch Goal

They lost me at the deck mechanic. What is this, Doomtrooper two point oh? I don't want CCG's in my wargame, thank you very much.

I have nothing against reference cards, but shoehorning a 60-card deck, complete with tapping, discarding, and even MtG-style mana spending? Why? What's the reasoning? Are cards included at random with levels of rarity to stimulate the second-hand market? What an ill-conceived idea... If I wanted to build a deck, I'd stick with CCG's.

Oh yeah, it dawned on me. It's so that the old guard can't play the game without purchasing the new kits or printing out the cards. Now it makes sense.

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

Im sorry but read update 9 on kickstarter page that is not how its phrased at all. Its all wrapped up tightly with stretch goal news.

 -DE- wrote:
They lost me at the deck mechanic. What is this, Doomtrooper two point oh? I don't want CCG's in my wargame, thank you very much.

I have nothing against reference cards, but shoehorning a 60-card deck, complete with tapping, discarding, and even MtG-style mana spending? Why? What's the reasoning? Are cards included at random with levels of rarity to stimulate the second-hand market? What an ill-conceived idea... If I wanted to build a deck, I'd stick with CCG's.

Oh yeah, it dawned on me. It's so that the old guard can't play the game without purchasing the new kits or printing out the cards. Now it makes sense.

To each their own on the liking/not liking card mechanics but this doesn't seem like a cash grab at all like you make it sound since it appears they're giving the cards free for print out.

 -DE- wrote:
They lost me at the deck mechanic. What is this, Doomtrooper two point oh? I don't want CCG's in my wargame, thank you very much.

I have nothing against reference cards, but shoehorning a 60-card deck, complete with tapping, discarding, and even MtG-style mana spending? Why? What's the reasoning? Are cards included at random with levels of rarity to stimulate the second-hand market? What an ill-conceived idea... If I wanted to build a deck, I'd stick with CCG's.

Oh yeah, it dawned on me. It's so that the old guard can't play the game without purchasing the new kits or printing out the cards. Now it makes sense.

As far as we can tell you can either print the cards cheaply (gaining Prodos no money unless... I dunno, they're copy-shop moguls) or it sounds like they will be available (in their entirety) as separate purchases outside of the starters (and a the very least they are separately available during the KS as well). But not every card game is collectible (remember folks Living Card Games exist).

And it isn't like card-mechanics are new, untested ground in a wargame. Confrontation, anything produced by Spartan Games, some versions of Warhammer and 40k.

But c'est la vie. I quite like the way they set it up and it adds an extra tactical layer with a side of fog of war. I'm not 100% sold on the resource mechanic myself (and to be fair it is quite similar in design to MtG on that front) but the rest of it seems pretty usual for the kind of stuff you see in card-mechanics for miniature gaming. Though if the game otherwise interests you, one would think that the time to bug out wouldn't be right at the beginning of the beta. Prodos have shown they are nothing if not receptive to change, and while the card mechanics probably wont leave, the final form they take isn't exactly set in stone yet either.

And who knows, it is so easy to decouple the card mechanics from the game that it may end up being supported in the book as well. But if no one is around to voice that concern then how can it change during the beta.

And again, I say this as a guy who likes the card mechanics quite a bit (only iffy about the resources). But I can see why some wouldn't like them and fully support an optional inclusion of cardless rules for those who would just play without 'em. Official support of an easy house rule is always a good thing in my book, and it makes sure the game appeals to a wider base of customers.

Just for clarification:

Cards are not collectable
Each deck will consist the same strategy/tactical cards,
Cards give you situational bonus, up to max 20% (most expensive cards)
Cards let you affect terrain, weather conditions ect.
You can DRAW a card by spending Resources, that is why we said, the game is over once you ran out the cards, but simple math on it... 60 cards in deck, even if you spend max Resources just to draw a cards you wont ran out of it! Maybe in 9 or 10 turns....

Only "unique" cards are cards which comes with Troop/monster ect Squads! - Like Mutations for Legion or Software upgrade for Cybertronic giving small boosts (up to 20% to test roll)
Same about heroes cards.

the Beta Rules are out there, please play test them if possible. Once you are ready to give us feedback based on game experience please post it on our Facebook (or Forum on our web page - coming soon).

Thanks.

phil751 wrote:

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

Im sorry but read update 9 on kickstarter page that is not how its phrased at all. Its all wrapped up tightly with stretch goal news.

Possible that there could appear a little clearer in the beginning of the text. But I think you're reading what you want to read. I think it's pretty clear what they mean. The stretch goals is clearly visible on the frontpage.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
Software upgrade for Cybertronic

Wow, that's actually a perfect use for the mechanic as well. I'm glad to see this will be integrated on many levels. Can I expect a "The Moment Has Come!" card for Bauhaus?

Only if Mishima gets a "Banzai!" one.
Funny fact about that, the Spanish version got mistranslated so intead of adding 1 inch to movement after calling Banzai I played 1st ed adding 1cm till I got hold of the English book online years later, ugh!

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Only if Mishima gets a "Banzai!" one.
Funny fact about that, the Spanish version got mistranslated so intead of adding 1 inch to movement after calling Banzai I played 1st ed adding 1cm till I got hold of the English book online years later, ugh!

M.

Mishima will have Honour Cards (same principle as per general tactical cards)
for Bauhaus, we call them War Doctrine Cards (same principle as per general tactical cards)

Great!
And please take my comments for what they are, the comments of a WZ fan that wants a great game back even if he is still stuck in 1st ed

M.

 Octopussy wrote:

phil751 wrote:

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

Im sorry but read update 9 on kickstarter page that is not how its phrased at all. Its all wrapped up tightly with stretch goal news.

Possible that there could appear a little clearer in the beginning of the text. But I think you're reading what you want to read. I think it's pretty clear what they mean. The stretch goals is clearly visible on the frontpage.

I could say the same to you. It was announced in the stretch goal update the free mini was from the stretch goal. It is even in the same paragraph and sentence about stretch goal i think. So its not such a great leap to say it looks very much like a tacked on stretch reward. You even admit it could be clearer. Even if im totally wrong still does not sit that well perhaps a discount on shipping would have served better than the free rest of the world miniature, maybe though this is not possible in the kickstarter mechanics.

OK, I have read them and I am not really excited. Do not get me wrong I want this baby to succeed (I have already pledged on Dark Legion level…).
A lot of the rules seem to be a bit "old fashioned" and overly complex. Right now I would get the minis and play with another ruleset.
But this is the good thing here – BETA rules, we can give feedback!

OK, all the rest - just some proposals and questions on a strict "use or discard" base. And all by just reading not playing it, so not really qualified!

Layout – please remove the page backdrop, only wastes ink, makes the reading more difficult and is not adding anything since it is low res…

Bases measurement – To enforce a certain base on players is IMO a bad move. Just make all measurements from the centre of the base and include a CC-range. You can also declare the facing area. Done – and everyone can base the minis in any way they want.

What is the mini facing adding to the game? The situations were a facing for small models like infantry comes into play are very rare, so maybe drop the rule.

Cards mechanics – Well IMO too complex. Basically a game within a game. You are IMO opening a box of Pandora here. There are a lot of open ends too cover with future books/ FAQs…
I also fear that the gaming table is sooner or later cluttered with cards that are distracting from the minis!

Some questions:
How are resource cards looking? You have examples of Strategy, Gear and Tactical Cards, but no Res. Card. The only Res. Card I found are in the Card file, is this the only one? Do they all look alike?
Is flipping like tapping in MtG?
What are the symbols on the cards for?
Is Chess + World = Strategy
Chess = Tactical
Spanner = Gear? – Can’t be since the only Resource card has the same symbol!
What are the numbers on the cards for? Are this the number of res. points I have to pay to play the card?

How are Morale tests rounded? Up/ Down?

Do I get it right, that a player can activate all of his units in the battle Section? Or is the activation alternating between players?

phil751 wrote:

 Octopussy wrote:

phil751 wrote:

 Octopussy wrote:
The first give away Hero was not a stretch goal. But a gift to all the international buyers because of the "expensive" postage. A nice gesture. The 50K stretch goal was to produce 4 new heros for us to buy and one free card.

Im sorry but read update 9 on kickstarter page that is not how its phrased at all. Its all wrapped up tightly with stretch goal news.

Possible that there could appear a little clearer in the beginning of the text. But I think you're reading what you want to read. I think it's pretty clear what they mean. The stretch goals is clearly visible on the frontpage.

I could say the same to you. It was announced in the stretch goal update the free mini was from the stretch goal. It is even in the same paragraph and sentence about stretch goal i think. So its not such a great leap to say it looks very much like a tacked on stretch reward. You even admit it could be clearer. Even if im totally wrong still does not sit that well perhaps a discount on shipping would have served better than the free rest of the world miniature, maybe though this is not possible in the kickstarter mechanics.

KS wont let us to change anything one is up, therefore we gave that one Free mini to international P&P. Mark was trying to explain that on KS page.
Sorry for the "Update" not being clear enough .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AAN wrote:
OK, I have read them and I am not really excited. Do not get me wrong I want this baby to succeed (I have already pledged on Dark Legion level…).

Some questions:
1. How are resource cards looking? You have examples of Strategy, Gear and Tactical Cards, but no Res. Card. The only Res. Card I found are in the Card file, is this the only one? Do they all look alike?
2. Is flipping like tapping in MtG?
3. What are the symbols on the cards for?
4. Is Chess + World = Strategy
5. Chess = Tactical
6. Spanner = Gear? – Can’t be since the only Resource card has the same symbol!
7. What are the numbers on the cards for? Are this the number of res. points I have to pay to play the card?
8. How are Morale tests rounded? Up/ Down?
9. Do I get it right, that a player can activate all of his units in the battle Section? Or is the activation alternating between players?

Hi there
1. Page 6 Beta Rules: "Res. cards count as Gear Cards, but are only issued in the control phase."
2. Page 1 of Beta Cards, "flip it over to gain 1 Res"
3. Page 6. beta Rules - Example cards - The type is above.
4. Page 6. Yes
5. Page 6. Yes.
6. Page 6 Yes
7. Page 6... box with description is missing,, but yes this is cost. will be added in 1.1, See Pt1.
8.Rounded Up.
9. No, is alternative activation - "I go - you go".

Thanks for feedback.

So regarding the 'free' models:

When we met the £50k goal we released the KS priced £7 heros (RRP £7.99). As a geasture of good will to our international pledgers we offered one of these as a gift above the threshold stated.
When we met 150% of target we gave away a special 'Mishima Doomtrooper mini' to everyone of Razide level or higher. This mini will not be available outside KS, but can be bought by anyone who is already recieving a postal delivery from us (in any number) for £4 each

Neither of these offers, the free cards (future giveaways) or any 'add-on' purchase increases P&P charges.

As Jarek has stated above we can not change the information on the pledges. KS wont allow that!

Mark

Prodos wrote:
So regarding the 'free' models:

When we met the £50k goal we released the KS priced £7 heros (RRP £7.99). As a geasture of good will to our international pledgers we offered one of these as a gift above the threshold stated.
When we met 150% of target we gave away a special 'Mishima Doomtrooper mini' to everyone of Razide level or higher. This mini will not be available outside KS, but can be bought by anyone who is already recieving a postal delivery from us (in any number) for £4 each

Neither of these offers, the free cards (future giveaways) or any 'add-on' purchase increases P&P charges.

As Jarek has stated above we can not change the information on the pledges. KS wont allow that!

Mark

Sounds like a stretch goal bonus to me. Still im done with flogging a dead horse. Im not going to continue this subject any further unless im directly referenced on it again.

 AAN wrote:

Layout – please remove the page backdrop, only wastes ink, makes the reading more difficult and is not adding anything since it is low res…

Bases measurement – To enforce a certain base on players is IMO a bad move. Just make all measurements from the centre of the base and include a CC-range. You can also declare the facing area. Done – and everyone can base the minis in any way they want.

What is the mini facing adding to the game? The situations were a facing for small models like infantry comes into play are very rare, so maybe drop the rule.

Cards mechanics – Well IMO too complex. Basically a game within a game. You are IMO opening a box of Pandora here. There are a lot of open ends too cover with future books/ FAQs…
I also fear that the gaming table is sooner or later cluttered with cards that are distracting from the minis!

Good feedback, and I agree with the Beta rules background issue.

Regarding Facing and Base size, these mechanics have been used to Warmachine/Hordes for a decade now, and have shown to 'tighten' the rule set. If you're unfamiliar with the mechanics, I would recommend giving them a shot. It does make a huge difference.

I'll reserve judgement on cards. I've never noted their issue with WM/H or Malifaux, but this system is quite different.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:
I have no problem with the whole card thing. "Confrontation" used to be my wargame of choice for the years that it was alive and kicking, so cards definitely are not a taboo for me.

What I really did not like was the part of the rules that was saying that the game ends when there are no cards left in the deck. I mean, this can be a serious game breaker, especially since we know that there are people that will be more than happy to abuse this rule and transform a miniature game to a CCG one. So, this does particular rule does not get my vote.

How can a player abuse it for their own gain though? There are no cards that interact with the enemy deck in any way (only cards to interact with in-play cards). That is one of the big reasons why it isn't anything like a CCG (though again, the more correct term for it would be LCG). In a L/CCG the two decks interact with one another and that is what forms the gameplay. In Warzone, the cards can only interact with in-play cards or the game table (and units on it), itself.

So there is no real way for your opponent to deck you unless the game went on for 40-50 turns of you trickling cards in to your hand.

The decking mechanic is more to limit people rushing through their hand in order to get exactly what they need. Certainly not the only way to do it, mind you, but it could certainly work to discourage burning through ones deck too quickly.

I just can't see how one could abuse the rule for their own gain, though. The card-rules just lack that level of interaction with the decks to pull of things like (to use an MtG term) milling an opponent to death.

Either way, this is a mechanic I am willing to test out in play to see if it actually becomes and issue. But most games wont last long enough to see you through the 55-50 cards (if you mulligan your hand) you would need to delve through in order to actually lose the game like that. Even drawing out five cards a turn (regardless of if you need 'em or not) you will still need 11 or so turns to deck yourself, and drawing at that rate will make it impossible to actually use any of your cards anyways. So no one will do this in general (especially not for 11 turns in a row). I say we give it a fair shake first before deciding we don't need it, because I think it may be a good deterrent for people thinning their deck out by drawing more than they need every turn.

Cheers for your answer. It was my mistake since I only skimmed the rules and I did not notice that there is no way to influence your opponents deck. My bad to post so quickly based more on my fears rather than what there is.

Not quite like the two action stuff, that was what made the first edition so tactical, haven't checked the card aspect yet.

Wow, after I've read (and now understand) the card mechanic, it's quite excellent. Am i right on these points?:

- So there's no unique cards; they are basically part of your army list building.

- Which for small skirmish games where many army compositions can be the same, this allows for greater tactical flexibility.

- Losing when out of cards is to prevent card spamming (lemme quick go through my deck to find the cards I want, etc)

 judgedoug wrote:
Wow, after I've read (and now understand) the card mechanic, it's quite excellent. Am i right on these points?:

- So there's no unique cards; they are basically part of your army list building.

- Which for small skirmish games where many army compositions can be the same, this allows for greater tactical flexibility.

- Losing when out of cards is to prevent card spamming (lemme quick go through my deck to find the cards I want, etc)

That is 100% correct , Sir

My gaming group and I read through the rules and played 2 test games, I must say the card element added a lot of fun to the games. We game both table top and mtg so merging the two was a natural transition to us.

In my opinion using a D20 and being allowed two rolls (if you want to take the second) is a nice change from having to roll mass amounts of D6's.

Higher resolution rules would be a lot better as well, as some of it was hard to read when printed out. I would also like to suggest you remove the page backdrop as well as it adds extra toner when printer.

Just my personal criticisms of the rules are as follows.

Some of the wording could be redone to be more clear and concise.

Stat line Card Diagram looks quite sloppy and can be a bit hard to read (High res image and better pointers could help) *beta* I know

Would recommend a different font as well for all text.

That is all for now. This game at least for my club and I is shaping up to become our primary tabletop game. Our games lasted roughly 30 - 40 min each, the rules were very easy for us to pick up and the game was fun from the start not to mention the more beer we drank the more fun it got :^)

There should be an option when printing a PDF to not print the background image.

 judgedoug wrote:
Wow, after I've read (and now understand) the card mechanic, it's quite excellent. Am i right on these points?:

- So there's no unique cards; they are basically part of your army list building.

- Which for small skirmish games where many army compositions can be the same, this allows for greater tactical flexibility.

- Losing when out of cards is to prevent card spamming (lemme quick go through my deck to find the cards I want, etc)

primalexile wrote:
My gaming group and I read through the rules and played 2 test games, I must say the card element added a lot of fun to the games. We game both table top and mtg so merging the two was a natural transition to us.

In my opinion using a D20 and being allowed two rolls (if you want to take the second) is a nice change from having to roll mass amounts of D6's.

Higher resolution rules would be a lot better as well, as some of it was hard to read when printed out. I would also like to suggest you remove the page backdrop as well as it adds extra toner when printer.

Just my personal criticisms of the rules are as follows.

Some of the wording could be redone to be more clear and concise.

Stat line Card Diagram looks quite sloppy and can be a bit hard to read (High res image and better pointers could help) *beta* I know

Would recommend a different font as well for all text.

That is all for now. This game at least for my club and I is shaping up to become our primary tabletop game. Our games lasted roughly 30 - 40 min each, the rules were very easy for us to pick up and the game was fun from the start not to mention the more beer we drank the more fun it got :^)

This sounds just great. I did not have the chance to playtest the rules yet and I might not be able to for quite some time, so it's nice that you guys took the time to share your first impressions. The problem now is reining my excitement.

 praetor24 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Wow, after I've read (and now understand) the card mechanic, it's quite excellent. Am i right on these points?:

- So there's no unique cards; they are basically part of your army list building.

- Which for small skirmish games where many army compositions can be the same, this allows for greater tactical flexibility.

- Losing when out of cards is to prevent card spamming (lemme quick go through my deck to find the cards I want, etc)

primalexile wrote:
My gaming group and I read through the rules and played 2 test games, I must say the card element added a lot of fun to the games. We game both table top and mtg so merging the two was a natural transition to us.

In my opinion using a D20 and being allowed two rolls (if you want to take the second) is a nice change from having to roll mass amounts of D6's.

Higher resolution rules would be a lot better as well, as some of it was hard to read when printed out. I would also like to suggest you remove the page backdrop as well as it adds extra toner when printer.

Just my personal criticisms of the rules are as follows.

Some of the wording could be redone to be more clear and concise.

Stat line Card Diagram looks quite sloppy and can be a bit hard to read (High res image and better pointers could help) *beta* I know

Would recommend a different font as well for all text.

That is all for now. This game at least for my club and I is shaping up to become our primary tabletop game. Our games lasted roughly 30 - 40 min each, the rules were very easy for us to pick up and the game was fun from the start not to mention the more beer we drank the more fun it got :^)

This sounds just great. I did not have the chance to playtest the rules yet and I might not be able to for quite some time, so it's nice that you guys took the time to give your feedback. The problem now is reining my excitement.

Thanks for feedback :], we'll incorporate these changes with v1.1
Thanks again and more to come

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:


This sounds just great. I did not have the chance to playtest the rules yet and I might not be able to for quite some time, so it's nice that you guys took the time to give your feedback. The problem now is reining my excitement.

Thanks for feedback :], we'll incorporate these changes with v1.1
Thanks again and more to come

I know that I am being impatient as I know that I might have asked this before, but are we seeing the renders of the Armoured Chasseurs any time soon? Pleaseeeeee?

Some WIP renders of the hussar from their facebook group



Looks nice, but something is off with the "shoulderpads".
I think that its because the upper part of the armor were the shoulder is the armor sits further away from the arm then the lower part.
I think it would look better if they pulled the top part in so it overlaps the chest pice, then you could put straps under it with attachments to the upper chest plate front and back. I think it would look cool and ad detail.
Maybe shrink the "fins".
Alt 2 same as above but remove the "fins" altogether and flat armor bits to the to the top of the shoulders towards the neck that attaches to the main shoulder armor with a flexible joint to connect them like the lower part of the shoulder armor already has.

And by the way.. I dont think his lower jaw would fit in that helmet. just saying.

Other than that i think it looks really cool!!

I can see why they went wider with the shoulder pads (or at least further from the torso). It facilitates the arms being separate pieces. But something does feel just ever so slightly off about them and I think it is probably the upper width. It they could overlap or get it a bit closer then it would probably be fine. That said, the attention to detail is amazing (especially on all the fittings) and that leg armour in looking great. Definitely a good start. The more I look at it, the more I like it. Can't wait to see the other helmet option.

It may be wiser to have the shoulder armor as separate piece altogether the way they are mounted now. But we will see what they come up with.

My criticism:
1 - Shoulder Pads look really bulky and hardly actually cover the shoulder
2 - Lack of thigh armor and cod piece
3 - Rolled up sleeves are kind of tacky but could just be waiting for gloves to be added.

I think the helmet and shin guards look great! Good start guys my personal opinion is keep as close to the concepts but when it comes to the sprues the more options we have to customize our mini's the better.

first post on dakka, just for warzone
So I read the rules and i just don't know what's going on with engaging and "the engage"... I'm able to move twice my speed and get bonus to strength for one action point, but need another point to make the actual attack? How far can I move when I use 2 points for "the engage"? Can I make one "free" attack at the end of this action? Maybe someone can explain that to me.

Further I'm concerned that there is no limit to resource cards in a deck. I didn't playtest the rules jet, but couldn't it create a huge imbalance if one player is lucky and draws some more ressource cards soon, but the other player has to live with his initial three cards? I'm really looking forward to the gameexperience tabletop plus cards, if it's not to much of a gamble. From a gutfeeling i would prefer a fixed set of ressource cards. It's already a game based on dice. I don't want the need to rely on my luck with cards to much, too

Are the two players supposed to play with an even number of cards?

Thats it for now, hope you can answer some of my questions.

rhavien wrote:
first post on dakka, just for warzone
So I read the rules and i just don't know what's going on with engaging and "the engage"... I'm able to move twice my speed and get bonus to strength for one action point, but need another point to make the actual attack? How far can I move when I use 2 points for "the engage"? Can I make one "free" attack at the end of this action? Maybe someone can explain that to me.

Yes, you need another action for the attack. You can't take the same action twice, though so double movement is as far as you can go.

Further I'm concerned that there is no limit to resource cards in a deck. I didn't playtest the rules jet, but couldn't it create a huge imbalance if one player is lucky and draws some more ressource cards soon, but the other player has to live with his initial three cards? I'm really looking forward to the gameexperience tabletop plus cards, if it's not to much of a gamble. From a gutfeeling i would prefer a fixed set of ressource cards. It's already a game based on dice. I don't want the need to rely on my luck with cards to much, too

That imbalance depends on how big of an impact the cards have. According to Prodos, it will be tops +20%. So being lucky with the dice is still more important than being lucky with the cards.

Are the two players supposed to play with an even number of cards?

It's up to the player how to build his deck. So no.

rhavien wrote:
first post on dakka, just for warzone
So I read the rules and i just don't know what's going on with engaging and "the engage"... I'm able to move twice my speed and get bonus to strength for one action point, but need another point to make the actual attack? How far can I move when I use 2 points for "the engage"? Can I make one "free" attack at the end of this action? Maybe someone can explain that to me.

Further I'm concerned that there is no limit to resource cards in a deck. I didn't playtest the rules jet, but couldn't it create a huge imbalance if one player is lucky and draws some more ressource cards soon, but the other player has to live with his initial three cards? I'm really looking forward to the gameexperience tabletop plus cards, if it's not to much of a gamble. From a gutfeeling i would prefer a fixed set of ressource cards. It's already a game based on dice. I don't want the need to rely on my luck with cards to much, too

Are the two players supposed to play with an even number of cards?

Thats it for now, hope you can answer some of my questions.

Hi there, the v1.1 will have Engage as Basic action therefore, you spend one action to Engage and 2nd to attack.
At this moment rules state that Engage models always have one action, therefore you can read this : once I Engage I gain 1 action for attack.
You can play only one Resource card every turn, also before the game start you draw 5 cards if you don't like them you can exchange for another 5 that should be enough to have some resource cards on hand.
Well the cards only boost your chance of succeed for max 20%, they can be countered by enemy cards.
Not much luck factor here as there is no "one-kill-auto-win" cards in game, simple situational cards

Give the game a go and let us know on our Facebook/ Beta Forum (soon will be launched).



.

Thanks for the quick response. I'll definetly give the rules a try as they are. If the card effects won't do that much of an impact (and hopefully no cheese combos) I'm fine with it.
I really like the new style and miniatures so far except i share the same opinion as has been already mentioned for the new hussar renders (odd shoulderpads, no room for the face). And I would like to see some more difference btw. Hussars and venus rangers. You want them to look realistic, but between techzombies, cyborgs and the brotherhood guys they look a tad to unspectacular to me.

Looooooong time lurker roused from my slumber here...

How about these Shoulder pads?



I don't know why Prodos doesn't go with perfecting a previous established ruleset. Instead of experimenting with a game known and loved as a tried and tested skirmish game to this forced mini/card game. If anything even if the cards were knocked to the background to reduce the randomisation effect and the pain in the posterior of hand management as well as playing a miniature game - why does it need to be this complex? What am I not getting?

The deviation from the pre-FFG imagery... I'l' admit the early miniatures are rubbish but mainly due to the 1:1 scale sculpting techniques now with the new tech we have the ability to see Bonner's Venusian Ranger/Max Steiner straight from the art work onto the table-top.

My opinion if you want a new game invent one - I'll be the first to state I may be a little developmentally delayed in understanding the changes or that one small point that might inspire me to change my mind, but that aside - There's really no need to mess with the recipe... it wasn't the rules or the figures that killed those several previous occasions...

47 days to go prodos - pull your finger out or my pledge is being set to ZERO

Have you tried the new beta rules? The game is actually a lot of fun, I never played the old rule set but i did read the v1 books and it looked great however
I can say the new rules are fun.

Yes, had several games with proxies - I wouldn't post without giving it a go. It's a massive departure from previous editions (along the lines of FFG's Abortive CMG - dark soul curse their name for eternity) This is what I feel killed it then... and leaves no room for future development without a complete overhaul or knocking this back to foundations and starting again. This is depressing since the miniatures have some promise but the rules break it. Since times running out and I having difficulty seeing a solution without reverting to traditional multiple action point allowance system consigning the game within a game 'Res' rubbish as far into the background as possible... this 'Cartel' pledge is about to be put out of my misery before I'm stuck with a rubbish game with better miniatures than 40k

 Carnuscaedes wrote:
I don't know why Prodos doesn't go with perfecting a previous established ruleset. Instead of experimenting with a game known and loved as a tried and tested skirmish game to this forced mini/card game. If anything even if the cards were knocked to the background to reduce the randomisation effect and the pain in the posterior of hand management as well as playing a miniature game - why does it need to be this complex? What am I not getting?

Which established ruleset is that exactly. 1st Edition and 2nd Edition are actually quite different aside from well, the most basic concept of the action system (and the use of a D20 roll-under system). Between those two editions an innumerable amount of changes occurred, some of them were horrible, some of them weren't. Ultimate made loads of sweeping changes as well (double-blind deployment, the assault system, weapons were changed completely from the botched 2nd Edition version but still far more complex than 1st Edition, the survival/terrain system that caused a lot of wonkiness with several units unless you always used and enforced it, and many other changes). The Warzone system has never really settled in any one place to long, so which version would Prodos be "perfecting"? As far as I can see they scaled back to 1st Edition and actually streamlined a lot of cruft. They removed the bracing action but kept mobile heavy weapons not being as effective as stationary. They kept individual activation but removed a default action to tighten up the action economy which was broken from day one (abuse of move+shoot+move, multi-fire actions punished the guy who maneuvered and moved in to a good position instead of planting his boots and letting rip at a target, the aim action was pointless, heavy weapons with high numbers of shots were top dogs, etc.).

Hell, the basic rules themselves are more streamlined than they have been in years. The card mechanics aren't really all that complex either, certainly easier to use and reference than 2nd Edition's mess of weapon rules where number of shots, damage and to-hit bonus vacilated over 4-5 range bands. As a long time player I can definitely feel the 1st Edition DNA in this iteration and it is shaping up to be my favourite version yet. Is it perfect? Not yet, but it is close. The armour system could use a reduction in steps and either add 10 to all AVs and simply make an armour roll AV-Strength of the weapon, or weapon strengths are expressed as their modifier without the conversion step. The resource mechanic is still something I'm not 100% about, but I don't hate it either. And I am still waiting to see if there is a reaction mechanic added in in a later version.

But Warzone has never really been a concrete ruleset across its many editions, and seeing a team finally start from 1st Edition and tweak and balance that has this fan giddy about the possibilities.

The deviation from the pre-FFG imagery... I'l' admit the early miniatures are rubbish but mainly due to the 1:1 scale sculpting techniques now with the new tech we have the ability to see Bonner's Venusian Ranger/Max Steiner straight from the art work onto the table-top.

To each their own on the aesthetics. I like the Bauhaus redesign (and again, just look at the differences between the Hussars of Mutant Chronicles, WZ 1st and WZ 2nd; massive changes between them). Of course this does ignore that Brotherhood and Dark Legion are almost pitch perfect (oddly, despite having some of the worst minis in previous versions, their art has aged the best). Cybertronic is a reconciliation of the various iterations of their aesthetic from the Mutant Chronicles RPG to the darker and more industrial Cybertronic of 2nd Edition. The aesthetic of pre-FFG Mutant Chronicles/Warzone was very rarely as unified as some remember. The Brotherhood and Dark Legion probably had the most artwork and conceptual drawings that stayed the same over time, the other factions received a facelift in aesthetics and even background every single new iteration of the game.

My opinion if you want a new game invent one - I'll be the first to state I may be a little developmentally delayed in understanding the changes or that one small point that might inspire me to change my mind, but that aside - There's really no need to mess with the recipe... it wasn't the rules or the figures that killed those several previous occasions...

47 days to go prodos - pull your finger out or my pledge is being set to ZERO

It is statements like this that seem to ignore that Prodos are using quite a lot of the Warzone property. The whole of the Dark Legion and Brotherhood lines and the basic aesthetics of a great many other troops. They are starting from a base of 1st Edition instead of a hybrid of 1st and 2nd like Ultimate Warzone. They aren't messing with the recipe anymore than Target themselves did when putting out 2nd Edition (and erased a lot of background material, retconning loads and loads of 1st Edition and Mutant Chronicles background). If anything, Prodos are a little less avante garde than Target was by going back to what appears to be the roots of Mutant Chronicles and 1st Edition for inspriation.

But if it isn't what you want after 47 days then you are well within your rights to drop out. But as a fan of the current direction that starts from a modified 1st Edition, this is exactly the version of Warzone I've always wanted. To put it in 40k terms, it would be like GW going back and making 7th Edition a reworked, streamlined and balanced version of 2nd Edition instead of evolving from 3rd Edition and adding in bits of 2nd to entice nostalgia-freaks back in. Resurrection seems to be keeping the relative simplicity of 1st Edition but is cutting down on things like army-killing heroes and the like while adding in a bit of a spin of their own (which is really evocative of of the weird and wacky special rules of 1st Edition that later editions dropped entirely).

If Prodos keeps this up then they can be assured that I will keep upping my pledge (and continue buying after the KS is long over). But I can see why some people who enjoyed 2nd Edition or even a hybridized approach like Ultimate better would be rubbed the wrong way. But lean'n'mean 1st Edition is my sweet spot.

Is it because I'm not a native English speaker, but the above post is really hard to understand?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not yours, Ronin, the one above


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what the hell just happened? The Kickstarter fell almost 2000£ in a few hours.

Two of the three brothers appear to have either downgraded or dropped entirely. Oh well, no pleasing everyone.

Edit - Looking at the backer numbers, they didn't go down, so they must have downgraded instead of dropping. They may not have been able to support a £2000 pledge anymore (perhaps it was a group effort?) or they may just not have been that enamoured with the rules and decided to back at a low level. Oh well, conjecture about the motivations of people and how they spend their money is funny like that. They were an unexpected boon on a slow day and they left as quickly as they appeared. Might take until Friday or Saturday to reach £60k now, unless we get two people who were hoping to pledge at the Three Brothers level but missed the bus.

If you missed out, now is the time to pounce!

Edit 2 - I'm bad at reading, only one of the Three Brothers dropped their pledge level back, two are still sitting pretty in their pledge.

I'm generally good with the card rules but I admit I'd probably prefer the removal of resources and the addition of a trait on characters that allows them to draw extra cards each turn. Gives more variety in design as you can have characters who suck at drawing cards but have awesome combat stats and visa versa. Makes deck building simpler too and clutters the table a bit less.

 Carnuscaedes wrote:
Yes, had several games with proxies - I wouldn't post without giving it a go. It's a massive departure from previous editions (along the lines of FFG's Abortive CMG - dark soul curse their name for eternity) This is what I feel killed it then... and leaves no room for future development without a complete overhaul or knocking this back to foundations and starting again. This is depressing since the miniatures have some promise but the rules break it. Since times running out and I having difficulty seeing a solution without reverting to traditional multiple action point allowance system consigning the game within a game 'Res' rubbish as far into the background as possible... this 'Cartel' pledge is about to be put out of my misery before I'm stuck with a rubbish game with better miniatures than 40k

I agree with most of this.

I’m not going on another tangent I know some of us here are super big supporters… not tryin to stir the hornets’ nest

I will say this. I liked the old rules, the ones that came in the target games boxed set… lots of very cool solid stuff there, I don’t care for the cards.
Why?

This for me is very very simple and will make sense if you (Prodos and Others) will just listen.

suspension of disbelief.

Some of these cards totally break the “suspension of disbelief” and this is something very important to gaming.
An example. I place a certain card… now my guns magically turn to plasma… this never happened in WarZone before. It also doesn’t make sense.
A better example… in a game now, you could have an earthquake, eclipse, fog, etc… all in one turn?
Now I understand the wargear aspect I get it random things that units could bring, you never know feeling but honestly it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me personally.
It’s cool… I got all the old books still. I can use those.
(not telling you to feel like I do… no need for 5 paragraphs of retort on this, you know who you are)

Secondly… those Bauhaus look pretty awful at this point I’m not gonna lie. They look like bad super villain lackeys. I’d be back at the drawing board with those… what wrong with the old concept for them? I think people had a higher expectations and decided to drop the pledge down… a $3017 drop is really worth looking into, that’s an awful lot of all the sudden “I can’t afford it” more like “different than what I thought” models and rules.

The good news is… 3D renders are easy to fix (relatively) and these rules are total beta rules…
I’m just waiting to see if the the Cybertronic get the kind of troops I like (peoples volunteers and Machinators) and to see what the Imperial look like before I up my pledge.
Acting like a near $3020 drop is no big deal really is… that a little less than what a mold would cost for a plastic Vulcan….

So… if it was my KS I’d really start asking questions. Maybe even stop the KS and rework the whole thing… not a big deal. Seems like a big deal right but..I’d much much much rather see this thing done right and better prepared than come out as it is… as it is just might not have enough float long term.

You gotta look at warzones history... I really really would like this game to F'in stick around this time... at this rate it might not cause I don't even like it as it is right now.
I'm trying really hard to give it a chance

but

Apparently thows shoulder pads have been eating their vitamins between concept and render!



It's not bad, but still needs work. Thows shoulder pads look more like Water wings then armour at the moment. Just way to large and bloated to be convincing on a model that is otherwise a properly proportioned human.

Other wise it doesn't look to bad. With out the Cod piece and thigh armour thow, the shin armour looks kinda impratical/out of place. I would replace thows with knee pads to help balance the look abit more. (unless you plan on giving him the cod piece and thigh armour as in the orginal concept art. Then the shin armour would look perfect.)

Some detailing bits like pouches you can glue to their belts would also be prety cool also. If these guys get onto plastic sprues, these would be perfect little bits you could throw on. I assume in the future you still need to carry extra bullets around with you after all.


I look foreword to future updates!

 5deadly wrote:

 Carnuscaedes wrote:
Yes, had several games with proxies - I wouldn't post without giving it a go. It's a massive departure from previous editions (along the lines of FFG's Abortive CMG - dark soul curse their name for eternity) This is what I feel killed it then... and leaves no room for future development without a complete overhaul or knocking this back to foundations and starting again. This is depressing since the miniatures have some promise but the rules break it. Since times running out and I having difficulty seeing a solution without reverting to traditional multiple action point allowance system consigning the game within a game 'Res' rubbish as far into the background as possible... this 'Cartel' pledge is about to be put out of my misery before I'm stuck with a rubbish game with better miniatures than 40k

I agree with most of this.

I’m not going on another tangent I know some of us here are super big supporters… not tryin to stir the hornets’ nest

I will say this. I liked the old rules, the ones that came in the target games boxed set… lots of very cool solid stuff there, I don’t care for the cards.
Why?

This for me is very very simple and will make sense if you (Prodos and Others) will just listen.

suspension of disbelief.

Some of these cards totally break the “suspension of disbelief” and this is something very important to gaming.
An example. I place a certain card… now my guns magically turn to plasma… this never happened in WarZone before. It also doesn’t make sense.
A better example… in a game now, you could have an earthquake, eclipse, fog, etc… all in one turn?
Now I understand the wargear aspect I get it random things that units could bring, you never know feeling but honestly it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me personally.
It’s cool… I got all the old books still. I can use those.
(not telling you to feel like I do… no need for 5 paragraphs of retort on this, you know who you are)

Secondly… those Bauhaus look pretty awful at this point I’m not gonna lie. They look like bad super villain lackeys. I’d be back at the drawing board with those… what wrong with the old concept for them? I think people had a higher expectations and decided to drop the pledge down… a $3017 drop is really worth looking into, that’s an awful lot of all the sudden “I can’t afford it” more like “different than what I thought” models and rules.

The good news is… 3D renders are easy to fix (relatively) and these rules are total beta rules…
I’m just waiting to see if the the Cybertronic get the kind of troops I like (peoples volunteers and Machinators) and to see what the Imperial look like before I up my pledge.
Acting like a near $3020 drop is no big deal really is… that a little less than what a mold would cost for a plastic Vulcan….

So… if it was my KS I’d really start asking questions. Maybe even stop the KS and rework the whole thing… not a big deal. Seems like a big deal right but..I’d much much much rather see this thing done right and better prepared than come out as it is… as it is just might not have enough float long term.

You gotta look at warzones history... I really really would like this game to F'in stick around this time... at this rate it might not cause I don't even like it as it is right now.
I'm trying really hard to give it a chance

but

But that £2000 pledge is all one guy. So do Prodos listen to the majority of their customers or one guy who pledged at a high level. One dude in at a high level didn't like cards. Why read more in to it than that. Especially when the other two in st £2000 still seem fine. There are over 500 other backers and our voices should matter whether we pledge £1 or £2000. And as a backer, I like the direction.

That is the thing about high-value pledges, they can drop at any time. But just because they were considering giving you a large sum of money, doesn't mean they are more important than those who pledged less and stick around. Making a big deal about one guy dropping is silly even if they were in for £2000. The KS will move forward again just as it was doing when his £2000 was still pledged.

Hm, I'm not really liking the way those shoulders are really sticking miles out, or the bare-armed-ness of them. In the concept sketches they looked like bracers.

The chest/back looks good.

The pants look like civilian pants rather than fatigues of any kind, right down to the arse-pockets.

Greaves and boots look good.

More pouches, or at least the option for some.

The helmet looks pretty bad. I think it's the eye-holes, or the combo of them with the skinny mask and the hollow where the eye-holes reside.

Well i agree that it is far to early to press the panic button due to one backer pulling out there has been a quite dramatic slow down in pledges over the last few days. Which to a certain level is to be expected. Probably coincidental with beta rules being released, however cant be totally dismissed that the rules are leaving a lot of people cold. I imagine over the next few we will have a better picture. Figures dont lie so they say.

I like them to keep the card system, haven't tried it yet but I sure don't want a 40k/warmahordes clone.

As for the shoulder pads on the hussar I'd like to see a different approach for a moment just to make a comparison. And I can't deny wishing for a more old-school approach the shoulder pad issue. And the head needs some adjustment as have already been pointed out. Otherwise I like it!

Yeah, right now the shoulders aren't really matching up to the more streamlined concept piece and seems to be trying to capture the huge-pauldron demographic. Either further towards the huge, horizontal pads or smaller and slimmer like the concept. They are the only bit that is bugging me right now. But either way it is a WIP so still time to tweak and improve. Than and I'm waiting to see the render of the second head option with the more pronounced helmet, that was my favourite concept head that they ended up choosing.

This head definitely reminds me of the helmetless mask of the Ducal Militia sergeant.

The details on the rest are looking pretty good as well.

I'd just like to see a few different shoulder pad tweaks since the current ones just aren't doing it for me. But knowing Prodos they'll have a few extra examples and tweaks up their sleeves (remember the difference between the WIP riding pants on Angelika and the more finished one, Prodos are pretty good when it comes to finishing touches).

I am also torn on the sleeves. Maybe a few different arm options with bracers and some with rolled sleeves. They wont always be fighting in the ice rings after all. But for a WIP, it is looking pretty good.

Edit - Looking better already!

I don't get the point of shoulder pads that don't protect the shoulders. Pretty disappointed in the Bauhaus troops and Venusian Rangers. I'm a huge fan of Bauhaus from the old artwork and Doomtrooper game, and these are just too far from them.

Mishima Hero WiP.

The guys in the facebook forum ask for your feedback on this one:

 5deadly wrote:

 Carnuscaedes wrote:
Yes, had several games with proxies - I wouldn't post without giving it a go. It's a massive departure from previous editions (along the lines of FFG's Abortive CMG - dark soul curse their name for eternity) This is what I feel killed it then... and leaves no room for future development without a complete overhaul or knocking this back to foundations and starting again. This is depressing since the miniatures have some promise but the rules break it. Since times running out and I having difficulty seeing a solution without reverting to traditional multiple action point allowance system consigning the game within a game 'Res' rubbish as far into the background as possible... this 'Cartel' pledge is about to be put out of my misery before I'm stuck with a rubbish game with better miniatures than 40k

I agree with most of this.

I’m not going on another tangent I know some of us here are super big supporters… not tryin to stir the hornets’ nest

I will say this. I liked the old rules, the ones that came in the target games boxed set… lots of very cool solid stuff there, I don’t care for the cards.
Why?

This for me is very very simple and will make sense if you (Prodos and Others) will just listen.

suspension of disbelief.

Some of these cards totally break the “suspension of disbelief” and this is something very important to gaming.
An example. I place a certain card… now my guns magically turn to plasma… this never happened in WarZone before. It also doesn’t make sense.
A better example… in a game now, you could have an earthquake, eclipse, fog, etc… all in one turn?
Now I understand the wargear aspect I get it random things that units could bring, you never know feeling but honestly it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me personally.
It’s cool… I got all the old books still. I can use those.

I'm going to agree here if I disagree with the rest of your post because taste is a very subjective thing. I might end up being wrong but right know for me the card mechanic takes me out of my miniature game mindset where all I see are soldiers running around back to the real world where I have to stop and think what I'm supposed to do with the card I got, play it now, keep it for later... I'm torn about the cards, on the one hand equipment cards would be great but some of the others don't mesh with my idea of WZ. But as Ronin has been pointing out we are still in the Beta and so far Prodos has been very receptive to constructive critics.

M.

Id like to explain my situation in regards to this project as it may help prodos. I dont know how common this is so dont know how useful it will be. I live in a medium / smaller town .there is one gaming club. We have around 40 members about 20 on average turn up on club nights. It is very gw centric with about half the members playing only 40k
we have over the last year managed to get a malifaux league going with a lot of pushing. Now believe it or not i really do want to get thos going as would love to have an alternative to 40k. This will be a really hard sell for me. Realistically to have any chance i need to initially provide at least 2 factions preferably more and rules, hence my original pledge £333 as i also really wanted the cases. Now at my club i can guarentee noone else will pledge on the kickstarter i tried really hard with goa to no avail. I think 2 have backed cmon kickstarters in the past so have high expectations of freebies. I cant push it on the IP as none ive spoken to have heard of its prior incarnations. So as mentioned previously i initially have to provide everything to game with to get people hooked. So at times i may have seen overly critical of certain things but i will need to invest not only a considerable amount of money but a lot of time as well. with no guarentees of the longegevity and the fact i still may not convert people im taking a gamble. The next difficulty i will have is convincing my one local independent shop to stock it who offers are club members a 10% discount. As he is struggling these days and relies a lot on his GW sales. But we managed previously to get him to stock malifaux. I hope this inforrmation may be of some use but i am unaware of how common this situation is in your demographic.

phil751 wrote:
Id like to explain my situation in regards to this project as it may help prodos. I dont know how common this is so dont know how useful it will be. I live in a medium / smaller town .there is one gaming club. We have around 40 members about 20 on average turn up on club nights. It is very gw centric with about half the members playing only 40k
we have over the last year managed to get a malifaux league going with a lot of pushing. Now believe it or not i really do want to get thos going as would love to have an alternative to 40k. This will be a really hard sell for me. Realistically to have any chance i need to initially provide at least 2 factions preferably more and rules, hence my original pledge £333 as i also really wanted the cases. Now at my club i can guarentee noone else will pledge on the kickstarter i tried really hard with goa to no avail. I think 2 have backed cmon kickstarters in the past so have high expectations of freebies. I cant push it on the IP as none ive spoken to have heard of its prior incarnations. So as mentioned previously i initially have to provide everything to game with to get people hooked. So at times i may have seen overly critical of certain things but i will need to invest not only a considerable amount of money but a lot of time as well. with no guarentees of the longegevity and the fact i still may not convert people im taking a gamble. The next difficulty i will have is convincing my one local independent shop to stock it who offers are club members a 10% discount. As he is struggling these days and relies a lot on his GW sales. But we managed previously to get him to stock malifaux. I hope this inforrmation may be of some use but i am unaware of how common this situation is in your demographic.

Where you are located in UK, if I may ask?
We are going to run beta gaming next Monday in Leamington Spa, with new miniatures, more rules. Mark is going to post that info today on our facebook, but I can say that everybody are more than welcome to try the game !!! and have a beer with us ... if you over 21
Regarding the clubs discount, we will consider this one, as it's good idea, but it might be causing some anger coming our way for solos :( (they might get something else instead), let us think about it. Thanks.

Im way down south ,taunton ,somerset. Not really suggesting you offer a discoint to clubs in the kickstarter. Be hard to implement fairly like you mentioned. I just mentioned my only local games store gives members of our games club a ten percent discount on presentation of our membership card. Might be worth considering when you go retail if your selling direct at all. Or perhaps having some sort of network for clubs to arrange toirmaments and demo likr some companies doetc . But that is still way off i guess. Was just thinking if you had a clearer picture not that im sayong you dont. It may or maynot help planning certain elements further down the line in the kickstarter.

 praetor24 wrote:
Mishima Hero WiP.

The guys in the facebook forum ask for your feedback on this one:

I cant find the Facebook forum can you send me a link? This picture is not here https://www.facebook.com/WarzoneResurrection/?

 Octopussy wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:
Mishima Hero WiP.

The guys in the facebook forum ask for your feedback on this one:

I cant find the Facebook forum can you send me a link? This picture is not here https://www.facebook.com/WarzoneResurrection/?

here is link to the Face group.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/121888887983248/

I agree with most of this.

I’m not going on another tangent I know some of us here are super big supporters… not tryin to stir the hornets’ nest

I will say this. I liked the old rules, the ones that came in the target games boxed set… lots of very cool solid stuff there, I don’t care for the cards.
Why?

This for me is very very simple and will make sense if you (Prodos and Others) will just listen.

suspension of disbelief.

Some of these cards totally break the “suspension of disbelief” and this is something very important to gaming.
An example. I place a certain card… now my guns magically turn to plasma… this never happened in WarZone before. It also doesn’t make sense.
A better example… in a game now, you could have an earthquake, eclipse, fog, etc… all in one turn?
Now I understand the wargear aspect I get it random things that units could bring, you never know feeling but honestly it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me personally.
It’s cool… I got all the old books still. I can use those.
(not telling you to feel like I do… no need for 5 paragraphs of retort on this, you know who you are)

Pretty much the same thoughts here. But this implementation of the cards has really killed it for me. I don't think of Magic: TG, it more makes me think of Yu-gi-Oh. It really, seriously, feels more like a card game with miniatures, than it does a miniatures game with cards, to me. The apparent homogenization of squads (i.e., the removal of heavy/special weapons members of squads) furthers this.

When I thought the game would be "here's your factions deck of 75 cards, add in the squad specific cards for what you're fielding, now play" I thought it could be a cool and workable dynamic, but add in actual deck-building, and it's just one more thing to think about that I don't want to mess with.

I still REALLY hope that the game comes back and does well. The more variety there is in the wargaming hobby, the better off all of us are.

Wurfelrolle wrote:

I agree with most of this.

I’m not going on another tangent I know some of us here are super big supporters… not tryin to stir the hornets’ nest

I will say this. I liked the old rules, the ones that came in the target games boxed set… lots of very cool solid stuff there, I don’t care for the cards.
Why?

This for me is very very simple and will make sense if you (Prodos and Others) will just listen.

suspension of disbelief.

Some of these cards totally break the “suspension of disbelief” and this is something very important to gaming.
An example. I place a certain card… now my guns magically turn to plasma… this never happened in WarZone before. It also doesn’t make sense.
A better example… in a game now, you could have an earthquake, eclipse, fog, etc… all in one turn?
Now I understand the wargear aspect I get it random things that units could bring, you never know feeling but honestly it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me personally.
It’s cool… I got all the old books still. I can use those.
(not telling you to feel like I do… no need for 5 paragraphs of retort on this, you know who you are)

Pretty much the same thoughts here. But this implementation of the cards has really killed it for me. I don't think of Magic: TG, it more makes me think of Yu-gi-Oh. It really, seriously, feels more like a card game with miniatures, than it does a miniatures game with cards, to me. The apparent homogenization of squads (i.e., the removal of heavy/special weapons members of squads) furthers this.

When I thought the game would be "here's your factions deck of 75 cards, add in the squad specific cards for what you're fielding, now play" I thought it could be a cool and workable dynamic, but add in actual deck-building, and it's just one more thing to think about that I don't want to mess with.

I still REALLY hope that the game comes back and does well. The more variety there is in the wargaming hobby, the better off all of us are.

I would suggest to go through the rules once again, as there is no" removal of heavy/special weapons members of squads" , as we stated on beta rules, You would have to build your own army as per previous editions, based on points. Each squad can be upgraded with Special, heavy weapon , special skills ... and you'd have to pay points for it before game starts.
These are Beta rules, they don't give you this option (building army) atm as we need to get mechanic right , at this stage we are gathering feedbacks, and I would be gratefully if you can provide some based on the "beta" gaming experience .
Just for record, I must stays that majority of fans who actually played the game with cards gave us positive feedback.

Wurfelrolle wrote:

I agree with most of this.

I’m not going on another tangent I know some of us here are super big supporters… not tryin to stir the hornets’ nest

I will say this. I liked the old rules, the ones that came in the target games boxed set… lots of very cool solid stuff there, I don’t care for the cards.
Why?

This for me is very very simple and will make sense if you (Prodos and Others) will just listen.

suspension of disbelief.

Some of these cards totally break the “suspension of disbelief” and this is something very important to gaming.
An example. I place a certain card… now my guns magically turn to plasma… this never happened in WarZone before. It also doesn’t make sense.
A better example… in a game now, you could have an earthquake, eclipse, fog, etc… all in one turn?
Now I understand the wargear aspect I get it random things that units could bring, you never know feeling but honestly it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me personally.
It’s cool… I got all the old books still. I can use those.
(not telling you to feel like I do… no need for 5 paragraphs of retort on this, you know who you are)

Pretty much the same thoughts here. But this implementation of the cards has really killed it for me. I don't think of Magic: TG, it more makes me think of Yu-gi-Oh. It really, seriously, feels more like a card game with miniatures, than it does a miniatures game with cards, to me. The apparent homogenization of squads (i.e., the removal of heavy/special weapons members of squads) furthers this.

When I thought the game would be "here's your factions deck of 75 cards, add in the squad specific cards for what you're fielding, now play" I thought it could be a cool and workable dynamic, but add in actual deck-building, and it's just one more thing to think about that I don't want to mess with.

I still REALLY hope that the game comes back and does well. The more variety there is in the wargaming hobby, the better off all of us are.

The game does still have heavy/special weapons in squads. They're referrenced in the current rules pdf.

The rules for the game seem very much "Normal functional miniatures game" with cards for fog of war game effect to me. It has all the normal rules minis games tends to have (Cover, line of sight, charge arcs, ranges, leadership, actions per round etc etc), but just sotra adds a tactical deck on top of it.

Yes, I don't understand the CCG accusation at all. These cards are not that different from the strategy cards in 40K 2nd ed or Fog of War cards in Tomorrow's war (IIRC).

That said, Prodos should definitely make it possible to play without the cards, just to please the anti-CCG crowd. And I think that's already possible. It's not like the cards are that integrated into the system.

brynolf wrote:

That said, Prodos should definitely make it possible to play without the cards, just to please the anti-CCG crowd. And I think that's already possible. It's not like the cards are that integrated into the system.

Exactly, that's what I observated, the cards are not integrated into the system. If you and your gaming group are not fond of the card system, just ignore them. It will only matter if the game ever manages to organize official competitions at national level. You're given the option to add an additional layer of metagame by playing with the card system, you can take it or leave it.

Personally I'm not really fond of the card system, is like having two different game systems playing in paralel. But I can see how it opens the door to the introduction of additional variables in order to make the game less predictable. Now if we could get rid of the resources "mana like" system... maybe made the characters and officers to apport "command points" to pay the tactics and equippment cards with. That way there would add another strategic factor to the game, the need to eliminate enemy officers in order to lower your adversary's "command pool" other than because they are units with bad ass profiles.

My buddy and I had a game last night, he is not huge into TTG or CCG's, he actually just started Warmahordes and he did have a couple hickups with the card aspect. The game took quite a bit over an hour since he is a new to tabletop in general and I had to help him figure out the card system and explain it quite a bit.

My gaming group had no issues (we could work around some of the misreading and uncleanness of a few of the rules) and we were able to use the cards easily enough. However it goes to show the difference in experience levels and ease of use.

Thomas said it probably would of been easier for him to get into the first game without the cards. I however feel that the cards add an extra element of strategy to the game.

Did the cards discourage him from the game? No

Did the card mechanics distract him? Yes

Was he able to figure it out with help? Yes

Did he enjoy the card mechanics? Not yet but I have a feeling with time he will.

I am of the opposite opinion, however,I have a background in TTG and MTG.

In the end however, it all comes down to this, he texted me 15 min ago and asked if I wanted to have beers and play again.

My suggestion to Prodos is to continue to keep it simple and make sure the rules are concise. When doing the rulebook please make sure to explain everything in an easy to read and follow manner. Use only high quality diagrams, in any videos you make for the game, explain things slowly and methodically . Try to find someone with the least amount of accent (some Muricans have trouble understanding other American's let alone British and Polish.) Use high quality lighting and allow for high definition recording in your videos, I want this game to succeed and flourish in my gaming area and will do what I can to ensure it does.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Wurfelrolle wrote:

I agree with most of this.

I’m not going on another tangent I know some of us here are super big supporters… not tryin to stir the hornets’ nest

I will say this. I liked the old rules, the ones that came in the target games boxed set… lots of very cool solid stuff there, I don’t care for the cards.
Why?

This for me is very very simple and will make sense if you (Prodos and Others) will just listen.

suspension of disbelief.

Some of these cards totally break the “suspension of disbelief” and this is something very important to gaming.
An example. I place a certain card… now my guns magically turn to plasma… this never happened in WarZone before. It also doesn’t make sense.
A better example… in a game now, you could have an earthquake, eclipse, fog, etc… all in one turn?
Now I understand the wargear aspect I get it random things that units could bring, you never know feeling but honestly it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me personally.
It’s cool… I got all the old books still. I can use those.
(not telling you to feel like I do… no need for 5 paragraphs of retort on this, you know who you are)

Pretty much the same thoughts here. But this implementation of the cards has really killed it for me. I don't think of Magic: TG, it more makes me think of Yu-gi-Oh. It really, seriously, feels more like a card game with miniatures, than it does a miniatures game with cards, to me. The apparent homogenization of squads (i.e., the removal of heavy/special weapons members of squads) furthers this.

When I thought the game would be "here's your factions deck of 75 cards, add in the squad specific cards for what you're fielding, now play" I thought it could be a cool and workable dynamic, but add in actual deck-building, and it's just one more thing to think about that I don't want to mess with.

I still REALLY hope that the game comes back and does well. The more variety there is in the wargaming hobby, the better off all of us are.

I would suggest to go through the rules once again, as there is no" removal of heavy/special weapons members of squads" , as we stated on beta rules, You would have to build your own army as per previous editions, based on points. Each squad can be upgraded with Special, heavy weapon , special skills ... and you'd have to pay points for it before game starts.
These are Beta rules, they don't give you this option (building army) atm as we need to get mechanic right , at this stage we are gathering feedbacks, and I would be gratefully if you can provide some based on the "beta" gaming experience .
Just for record, I must stays that majority of fans who actually played the game with cards gave us positive feedback.

Ah, my apologies, I think I see the point of my confusion. A lot of it is is because the pictures thus far of the starter boxes don't show any models carrying heavy/special weapons (HMG, Sniper, Rocket Launcher, etc). I take it that these will be sold separately?

I *am* trying to still keep an open mind, and hoping to convince some of my friends into trying the beta out this weekend. The multi-player workings are what we're most interested in, old WZ was just THE best multi-player free-for-all game out there.

Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Official answer on facebook it looks like there will not be any other models coming out for the troops representing heavy weapons, ect just what is in the renders now (2 weapons per squad). this makes me sad, because I wanted to use the nice new minis with the older rules since I don't care for the card aspect at all but it looks like I can't even do that even.

madzerker wrote:
Official answer on facebook it looks like there will not be any other models coming out for the troops representing heavy weapons, ect just what is in the renders now (2 weapons per squad). this makes me sad, because I wanted to use the nice new minis with the older rules since I don't care for the card aspect at all but it looks like I can't even do that even.

This is incorrect!

I have no idea what madzerker is talking about. The actual official answer on Facebook:

Rules clarifications:
OK, some clarification as seems to that couple points where misunderstood.
1. In Full Game:
a. Qty of models per Squad - vary, from 1 to 12. Up to you, as you have to spend points to make an army, there is minimal nr. of models per squad (troops 4, Monster 1...)
b. Yes, you can upgrade squad members to Specialist (heavy weapons) in fact if you noticed on 3ds some models have different weapons!
c. Yes, you can buy equipment for your squad, like different AMMO, Granades, in fact you can customise as you want - it cost points,
c.Yes, some squads will have an option to buy special skills.

Now Cards Concept- cards give you an option, during the game, to react to situations like:
"you create your army vs CC, opponent army is mainly Walkers, therefore during the game, the cards give you possibility to counter enemy army (issue Anti-Vehicle weapon for instance) - yes it "random" but is more than nothing if you "forgot" to add Anti vehicle stuff during creation of your army.

Hope this clarify some of your question,

as always awaiting feedbacks: )
More in Beta v1.1

As shocking as it might be, the 1.0 beta unit stats don't have everything.

 judgedoug wrote:
Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Heck I'm surprised people equate Warmahordes (which only uses cards as Stat Cards ) with MtG

 judgedoug wrote:
Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Ditto, you could also mention all the Spartan systems, Dreadball (a game massively improved by cards IMO) and numerous others. I find it really hard to understand why some people seem to automatically think cards = CCG. All they do in this rule set is offer the player an extra layer of tactical options and a nice fog of war mechanic to keep you on your toes. In my opinion this is a very good direction for Warzone to head in. They've kept the absolute core concepts (alternate activations, d20s etc) of the old rule set in place, tweaked a few to improve balance (only 2 actions now) and added something new and interesting on top (the cards). That to me sounds like a fairly decent way to modernise a rule set.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Heck I'm surprised people equate Warmahordes (which only uses cards as Stat Cards ) with MtG

Mention of cards do something weird and primal to the brains of some people. I'm personally a fan of cards in most forms, whether they are simple stat-cards (Warmahordes) or actually get used as a game mechanic (FoF/TW, any Spartan game). I think the actual ability to build a deck is actually pretty innovative since now we can tweak our decks to our play style instead of getting stuck with an inflexible generalized deck or faction deck. If you value certain approaches and tactics more, then it lets you play around with that.

It also evokes my favourite bits of 1st Edition like the faction special rules that never seemed to return in later editions even though their inclusion always screamed Warzone to me. And it opens up a lot of design space to implement those things. Close Air Support cards for Capitol, cards representing high quality equipment and tactical acumen for Bauhaus, integrate AI programs for Cybertronic, special Art effects for the Brotherhood and weird bio-tech cards for Dark Legion. This is stuff that existed previously but without a centralized mechanic to tie it all together.

So while I imagine it could use some tweaks before it finally hits the shelf, I think it is actually a pretty interesting design choice.

 Nick Ellingworth wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Jeez, I'd hate to see some of these gamers try out an Ambush Alley miniatures game which has a whole deck of Fog of War cards.

Never thought of Tomorrow's War, Cold War Gone Hot, Ambush Alley, etc as Yu-gi-oh.

Ditto, you could also mention all the Spartan systems, Dreadball (a game massively improved by cards IMO) and numerous others. I find it really hard to understand why some people seem to automatically think cards = CCG. All they do in this rule set is offer the player an extra layer of tactical options and a nice fog of war mechanic to keep you on your toes. In my opinion this is a very good direction for Warzone to head in. They've kept the absolute core concepts (alternate activations, d20s etc) of the old rule set in place, tweaked a few to improve balance (only 2 actions now) and added something new and interesting on top (the cards). That to me sounds like a fairly decent way to modernise a rule set.

Multi-use card decks (such as Dreadball, where a single deck has multiple uses) is the way of the future, honestly. It's a way to add interesting events to gameplay. ESPECIALLY at the skirmish level - Warzone, Dreadball, etc - because teams/forces tend to start looking very similar. Ambush Alley Games has done it brilliantly, Dreadball as well. I haven't played it but isn't Relic Knights a diceless, card-based system?

My official comments from Facebook:

Jarek Ever ok so example, Legion has 2 weapons in box, one is basic 2nd one is "Special" and cost you points, in case of Legion (as the special is not heavy) you can have upto 3 weapons, in case of Capitol and Heavy weapons (strong with lots of RoF) you will have max 1 model per squad, all bits to assembly model you will have in the box (legion squad box of 5 models contain 10 weapons, 5 normal , 5 special)

Also this:

"depending on type of weapon, Special one (flamers, shotguns ect) squad can have more than one, in case of heavy (rockets or Heavy machine guns) just one BUT!!! there will be rule "Get that gun" - if your heavy/special model dies, you will have 50% that other model 3" away from him picks the weapons up."

and:
" so Legion has 2 weapons, same cybertronic in 5 man box, Brotherhood is mainly Art, so just one weapon in box but they will have special rules - Art- (one model can use Art as - similar to heavy weapon), Bauhaus as they all have MGs the will have special rule (you have to spend points for it before game starts) to increase their RoF (same as having one Heavy Machine gun in squad) - Each faction will be different, Capitol with Miniguns!"

Prodos wrote:

madzerker wrote:
Official answer on facebook it looks like there will not be any other models coming out for the troops representing heavy weapons, ect just what is in the renders now (2 weapons per squad). this makes me sad, because I wanted to use the nice new minis with the older rules since I don't care for the card aspect at all but it looks like I can't even do that even.

This is incorrect!

I am glad to hear it is incorrect, that isn't what I gathered from what Jarek said on facebook. I asked if what we saw in the renders was all of the weapon sculpts we will be getting for a troop and he said yes and then said there are two weapons for the troops. I am truly hoping that I am misunderstanding, I want to see models with missile launchers, flame throwers, sniper rifles, hmgs ect.. not just 2 weapons only. A later add on is fine, or even weapon packs for converting. I am hoping that say cybertronic chasseurs will have more weapon options then just the two shown in the renders

 Ronin_eX wrote:

I am also torn on the sleeves. Maybe a few different arm options with bracers and some with rolled sleeves.

Rolled sleeves just don't gel with the sci-fi knight look that the overall figure has. You expect to see that sort of thing on 20th-century soldiers (Vietnam, Mayala, North Africa, Rhodesia) and some modern special operators. It would "feel" better on Capitol and/or Imperial troops than Bauhaus, particularly these guys who are otherwise dressed in future-plate.

katfude wrote:
I don't get the point of shoulder pads that don't protect the shoulders. Pretty disappointed in the Bauhaus troops and Venusian Rangers. I'm a huge fan of Bauhaus from the old artwork and Doomtrooper game, and these are just too far from them.

I agree that the shoulder pads need some serious work in their present form. A poster above suggested that the shoulder pads overlap the chest with straps to hold them on, which would be much more reminiscent of the plate pauldrons and cuirass look that we're used to from Warzone art and models.




There is of course, "shoulder armour" that doesn't protect the shoulder. Modern upper-arm armour helps protect the shoulder, but is more about the bi/tricep area of the upper arm.




Having said that, I'll reiterate that neither the shoulder armour or rolled sleeves are working for me on this one, or for Bauhaus.

Really strange how this is going up in backers, but the money hasn't gone up to match it (and I believe has even gone down slightly?)

Sign to me that perhaps a few of the higher pledge amounts need to knock off a few more quid in savings?

I hope the guys running this can learn from the Gates of Antares KS - it needs to have targets that are within reach, which will bring new and exciting options, and also savings that will encourage people to pledge more. The Kickstarters that have got that right (Kings of War, Zombicide, Sedition Wars to name but 3) have gone astronomical as a result.

It doesn't NEED anything as it's funded already

lower prices and/or free stuff would indeed pull in more backers, BUT at a cost, and with such a long long time to go on the project it hardly seems smart yet

the key (in the early stages) is to keep adding backers, then as you get closer to the end get more cash from them as well as adding new backers which will happen as new factions/items unlock

give it time, no need to panic yet

Pacific wrote:Really strange how this is going up in backers, but the money hasn't gone up to match it (and I believe has even gone down slightly?)

Sign to me that perhaps a few of the higher pledge amounts need to knock off a few more quid in savings?

I hope the guys running this can learn from the Gates of Antares KS - it needs to have targets that are within reach, which will bring new and exciting options, and also savings that will encourage people to pledge more. The Kickstarters that have got that right (Kings of War, Zombicide, Sedition Wars to name but 3) have gone astronomical as a result.

If anything, increasing in pledger total is a better sign than merely increasing cash total. For anyone keeping track, a few backers with a high average can cause wild swings in totals and screw with momentum. But a larger number of backers begins to normalize things. I will admit that the last couple of days were disheartening, but they were also during the slow-as-hell middle of the week in a 60-day long kickstarter after the most controversial update we were likely to see. If Prodos had basically reprinted one of the previous editions of the game then all of us looking for something new would have pulled pledges back. As it turns out they are going with a streamlined version of 1st with an additional card mechanic. So those who were more in to Ultimate Warzone and 2nd Edition (which shared more DNA with each other than they did with 1st) were going to be unhappy. Either way they went they would have lost out, because the Warzone community is nothing if not very passionate and very, very (very) fractious in how they think the game should be (for those who haven't noticed yet ).

But a combination of a few high-level guys pulling back on the reigns and the dramatic slowdown almost every long-haul Kickstarter sees after the initial flurry means that things look a little worse than they likely were. The most important numbers to watch are number of backers which has steadily gone up. The more total backers in the stable, the more noticeable the final surge will be. Because the guys in at high values and the early adopters will likely be bled dry before the half way mark reaches us. It will be the scads of people in at low/mid levels that flock to grab a last few add-ons that will fuel the end-of-KS feeding frenzy.

I'm going to keep my eye on it until the weekend, myself, because the early bits of this Kickstarter have been wonky enough that it has been hard to get a real feel for it. I still remember last week when I was expecting a sharp drop-off in pledges and on the slowest day a handful of people dumped £4000 in to the game (completely unexpectedly). Now one of those people has pulled out (or rather, dropped back, as they are likely still funding at the £1 level since the number of backers never went down) just as unexpectedly. But they are still hovering over £55k, with over 500 backers (and rising every day). Even if it stalled right here, the Kickstarter would be a success. But they still have 47 days to go and the roughest spot is likely behind them with the initial release of the Beta.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:It doesn't NEED anything as it's funded already

lower prices and/or free stuff would indeed pull in more backers, BUT at a cost, and with such a long long time to go on the project it hardly seems smart yet

the key (in the early stages) is to keep adding backers, then as you get closer to the end get more cash from them as well as adding new backers which will happen as new factions/items unlock

give it time, no need to panic yet

Basically, all of this. It is already successful for what it was reaching for initially. It is still adding new backers and it is likely just settling in to the mid-KS slump that all long-haul campaigns experience. It still has more time left to run than most Kickstarter last for. It has already funded at over 150% of what it needed. It doesn't really need to break £60k (though given what we know, it probably will eventually) or even £70k to be successful, it is already there. Sucks that a bunch of people got a little excited and jumped to high pledges before finding out whether it would be what they wanted, but it only goes to show how amount of backers is more important than how much each backer has invested.

I still figure this one will do well and that the last couple of days were just a bit wonky. Hard to call it a trend anymore than the first day or two of £10k+ pledges was. I've said it before and I'll say it again, long Kickstarters are weird animals. Their low points can get pretty low, their doldrums are longer and more pronounced and it isn't odd to see nil or negative days as people shift pledges around and fiddle with things in the middle of the Kickstarter. This one is still pretty much right on track for that. Unless anything else odd happens, tomorrow will likely see at least some kind of upward movement and Friday will likely be pretty good.

So I'm a pretty big noob to this universe. I looked on the wiki and they don't seem to make any mention of the Brotherhood. Are they associated with a region or are they a new faction?

Also, I noticed Capitol is set to fund next and is the "US" equivalent. Is that correct?

Finally, is there any kind of "good guy" in this universe or is it all pretty murky?

 cincydooley wrote:
So I'm a pretty big noob to this universe. I looked on the wiki and they don't seem to make any mention of the Brotherhood. Are they associated with a region or are they a new faction?

Also, I noticed Capitol is set to fund next and is the "US" equivalent. Is that correct?

Finally, is there any kind of "good guy" in this universe or is it all pretty murky?

I don't remember nothing about them either, here is a link
http://greywolf.critter.net/sinaimc/brotherhood.htm

Yep Capitol is like the US.

It's pretty murky, we're dealing with megacorporations! Dark legion are are about the only true evil faction(and maybe Cybertronic)

 cincydooley wrote:
So I'm a pretty big noob to this universe. I looked on the wiki and they don't seem to make any mention of the Brotherhood. Are they associated with a region or are they a new faction?

Nope, they are a fairly well-established faction in the setting. When the Imperials stumbled across the seal that released the Dark Symmetry in to our plane of existence the Brotherhood formed to beat them back and re-unite humanity. THe seat of their power is located on Luna (which was terraformed and now looks like every city out of a Noir film ever). But they are pretty tight with Imperial and Bauhaus (or at least were in tight with Bauhaus until they started dealing with Cybertronic, who formed as an outgrowth of certain interests within Bauhaus and a few other Corporations). They are present just about anywhere and despite the Space Religious Order look and feel, they tend to avoid a lot of the negative tropes. Their Inquisitors are more likely to question you unobtrusively than to torture you, and if you are tainted by the darkness then they will perform the rites to exorcise you and get you in to a hospital for recovery. Like every other faction they have their upsides and downsides, their good guys and their bad guys.

Also, I noticed Capitol is set to fund next and is the "US" equivalent. Is that correct?

Yup, basically 1960's America. Right down to Mad Men style business men wheeling and dealing and the 'Nam style army. Very much the uber-patriotic stereotype of America you tended to see in Judge Dredd. The Meg would fit right in to Mars like a glove.

Finally, is there any kind of "good guy" in this universe or is it all pretty murky?

Yes and no. It kind of runs counter to 40k in my mind. In 40k everyone is a little evil, in Mutant Chronicles everyone has their positive notes and their Heroes (with a capital H). For every downside you can list on a faction you can list several good points about their society and the people in it.

Take my favourite faction, Bauhaus. On the face they can seem Imperialistic, stern, aloof and even a bit fantatical and their upper echelons are rife with nepotism. But they have universal health care, the best education system in the solar system, the lowest unemployment rate of any faction (they will pay to retrain you and get you back in the work force), and despite the rampant nepotism a military man can rise to rub elbows with the elite of society simply through sheer excellence. And while the faction contains units like the Order of the Spider and the Order of Fear (both scary, scary units with a bad reputation) it also has its real heroes (V-Rangers, Order of the Dragon, etc.).

Basically all of the human factions (even the Brotherhood) have their truly heroic bits to them alongside the usual black-humour stuff. It is mostly the pulp influences that cause this. It allows you to have heroic individuals working for factions that would usually be considered villains in other media.

If I had to pick one faction to be the heroes then it is a tossup between the Cartel and the Brotherhood. The Cartel is an organization focused on uniting the corporations and has an arm that is specialized in fighting the Dark Legion (the Doomtroopers). The Brotherhood is an organization led by a man who truly wants to unite humanity and fight back the Darkness, Cardinal Durand (well all of The Cardinals, really, but that little bit is delving deeper in to the weirder bits of the backstory).

Sweet. Thanks for that run down. I think I may end up hopping in this KS with the brotherhood.

I like everything you wrote about Bauhaus but for some reason I'm not entirely sold in he models. I'm kinda hoping we see some Capitol previews so I can make a judgement on them!

I'm hoping it reaches Capitol as well, my other Warzone buddy plays them along with Imperial and Crescentians (which is likely a long way down the road if they even keep Dark Eden around).

And I can see not everyone liking the re-styled Bauhaus, but this is probably one of my favourite redesigns of them since Kev White did the new-style 2nd Edition ones. I don't know why but I get an Afrika Korps + WWI feel from them (I think the former is the design of the Vulcan and the rolled-up sleeves). The new Hussars are closer to what they were described as in the original Mutant Chronicles material (the basic, but well armed and equipped conscripts of Bauhaus) rather than being 100% career soldiers as they became in 2nd Edition when the Ducal Militia became the conscripted forces.

But with Hussars getting back in as the basic trooper that leaves them open to do things like minor noble house Guard units (kind of the opposite of 2nd Edition's Ducal Militia conscripts, these are special forces units beholden to specific noble houses) alongside the Elector House Guard Orders (Elector Houses being the top-ranking families in Bauhaus society). Guard units tend to be the epitome of heavily armoured shock troops (save for a few of the covert-ops Orders). I'm excited to see if they go back to that in this edition because losing the guard orders was one of the things I despised about 2nd Edition. That and the Imperial Special Forces that weren't Golden Lions and Blood Berets; I loved all of the little spec-ops units they debuted in 1st Edition; they even had an elite corps of bank guards!

But seeing as they appear to be bringing back a lot of staples of 1st Edition, I think my hopes are in good hands at this point.

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
I like them to keep the card system, haven't tried it yet but I sure don't want a 40k/warmahordes clone.

I'd rather play more of a WarZone clone. I don't mind unit cards if the details are also repeated in the rulebook, but I am uninterested in a tactical card game shoehorned into a miniatures skirmish game. I've personally never liked any of the CCGs or LGCs and always happily been a miniatures and RPG guy. I don't plan to start now. Yes, that means I'm not even going to give it a try because I'm not going to waste time and toner printing out 2 sets of cards, nor am I going to buy any. I may buy some of the figures - depending on distribution and final price, and end up proxying them for Imperial Guard in 40k. If I can ever find the books, I might use the figures for WZ1e

 Azazelx wrote:

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
I like them to keep the card system, haven't tried it yet but I sure don't want a 40k/warmahordes clone.

I'd rather play more of a WarZone clone. I don't mind unit cards if the details are also repeated in the rulebook, but I am uninterested in a tactical card game shoehorned into a miniatures skirmish game. I've personally never liked any of the CCGs or LGCs and always happily been a miniatures and RPG guy. I don't plan to start now. Yes, that means I'm not even going to give it a try because I'm not going to waste time and toner printing out 2 sets of cards, nor am I going to buy any. I may buy some of the figures - depending on distribution and final price, and end up proxying them for Imperial Guard in 40k. If I can ever find the books, I might use the figures for WZ1e

Which is all well and cool, but a card mechanic doesn't make it not a Warzone clone. The game is basically 1st Edition Warzone with a unified army-wide special rule mechanic that happens to run on cards. It's cool to not like cards and know it. I wont tell you to give it a try. But the game is basically 1st Edition in every way shape and form right now. The differences between the current set of rules and 1st Edition is smaller than the differences between 1st and 2nd (hell even less than the differences between 1st and Ultimate).

Basically they added in cards that function in a similar fashion to the army-wide special rules (with more variety to boot) and reduced down to two actions as standard (but with ways to boost up to three according to the next beta's notes).

Feels like Warzone to me. I just don't want this to devolve in to "it has X, it is not Warzone". Because the same can be said about 2nd Edition and Ultimate when you get right down to it.

That said, give the rules a try sans cards (they are very easy to excise). Start both players with the "Command Points" that refresh every turn (replaces starting resources) so that special abilities can still function and give it a run through. The ease of de-coupling the cards from the rules is what has spurred me to suggest Prodos create an optional cardless set of rules to put in an appendix of the main rules. I love the way the cards function, and in play they feel very much like a natural extension of a lot of the rules concepts of 1st Edition, but the gut-level reaction a lot of people have to them and the ease of decoupling them from the main rules means that an officially endorsed house rule should make everyone happy and allow the game to move forward.

But I really recommend trying the rules sans cards with the house rule I suggested. It felt like I was playing a streamlined version of 1st Edition again, and I loved it (gave a test game a go before I got a couple of decks cut out because I was jonesing to play it).

And as an aside, sitting down and cutting all of those cards out reminded me of sitting down with printouts of the eight trillion templates 1st Edition required and exactingly cutting them all out (who ever thought the jagged edging was a good idea on these things; bastards!). It was a big wash of nostalgia as I sat, buried in scrap paper. I wonder if this version will give us a template for every, bloody thing in the game (please no Prodos, I had my fun already and don't wish it on anyone!).

I had no desire to play a card game within a miniatures game, I really didn't, but I have played 4 games so far and it has been a total blast. The cards add a new depth to the game that create new and unique tactics. I hate to say it but I am a convert, I like the new dynamic a lot!

 BDJV wrote:
I had no desire to play a card game within a miniatures game, I really didn't, but I have played 4 games so far and it has been a total blast. The cards add a new depth to the game that create new and unique tactics. I hate to say it but I am a convert, I like the new dynamic a lot!

It makes me genuinely happy to know that there are still people in the world that can change their mind. I loved your posts about your play tests on the FB pseudo-board (can't wait until their forums go up today/tomorrow/garstupidtimezones).

As someone who didn't mind the card aspect but was iffy on the resource mechanic, I am also starting to enjoy the latter bit as well. The starting pool of resources helps to alleviate the tempo-issues and prevents you from being resource starved and unable to do anything with that phase. So instead of needing to stack 24+ resources in the deck to make sure you aren't dead in the water, you can make due with 10-15 and fill the rest of the deck with interesting stuff.

I can't wait to see the faction-specific stuff (especially Cybertronic programs, now there is an aspect that I missed in later editions).

While the system is not inextricably linked to the card mechanics (and is quite easy to excise), it is also not a thoughtless add-on either. It shows some real care on their part.

I concur wholeheartedly, a lot of thought and care has been put into the addition of the card system.

Just because I am a grumpy old jaded gamer does not mean I cannot change my mind and appreciate a great idea!

Yeah I cannot wait until the official forums finally launch as well.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

That said, give the rules a try sans cards (they are very easy to excise). Start both players with the "Command Points" that refresh every turn (replaces starting resources) so that special abilities can still function and give it a run through. The ease of de-coupling the cards from the rules is what has spurred me to suggest Prodos create an optional cardless set of rules to put in an appendix of the main rules. I love the way the cards function, and in play they feel very much like a natural extension of a lot of the rules concepts of 1st Edition, but the gut-level reaction a lot of people have to them and the ease of decoupling them from the main rules means that an officially endorsed house rule should make everyone happy and allow the game to move forward.

But I really recommend trying the rules sans cards with the house rule I suggested. It felt like I was playing a streamlined version of 1st Edition again, and I loved it (gave a test game a go before I got a couple of decks cut out because I was jonesing to play it).

I'm not going to get into an argument about it, nor am I trying to piss on the parade here. I'm realistically probably not going to have time to learn the rules and play(test) them, with or without the cards anytime soon. That's another reason I'm being so dismissive, but frankly, the couple of times I tried CCGs, I absolutely hated them, and the idea of deck building, so the idea actually repulses me. Even the practice of army list building pisses me off these days, as I've never especially enjoyed it. I don't mind stuff like Munchkin, though - but that's a whole different card genre. If Prodos can create an official cardless version for cardophobes like myself, then I'll be happy to try it, once I get a chance to actually play.

I can change my mind about things, but frankly, I've got so much stuff to do and play, and the fact that I'll have to be the DM, Teacher of rules and supplier of toy soldiers of any boardgames or minis rulesets to my preferred group just means I'll play something else instead of something I'm actively averse to...

Yeah, no worries mate, not going to argue preference with anyone over here (I have my own grumpy old man hangups that make no bloody sense as well ). But yeah, the house rule to remove cards is really, really simple. Barring any wacky developments that create additional attachment points for the card system (and I simply can't foresee how that would occur), the only thing needed to remove them is to replace resource cards with a refreshing pool of chits to spend on special abilities that are inherent to the units themselves (kind of like focus in Warmachine really) and bob's your uncle.

Should work as well when the full rules are released in either case. But even as someone who loves the cards, I'll try and put a good word in for y'all about an optional rule somewhere in the book to allow people to play cardless. More options are always better than less in my book. And if one paragraph will get more people to look at the game I am all for it.

But I just hope that they never feel pressure enough to remove the mechanic from the game, because it is quickly becoming my favourite development in this edition. It has almost made me forget about double-blind deployment from UWZ.

Hmm. Maybe to promote more funding they should add something else to the 60,000 pound stretch goal. a new limited edition model perhaps? While I much prefer plastic over resin, just getting plastic doesn't really generate excitement.

Eh, it'll start going up again, but I figure they'll issue another update with some tidbits when the full forums go up today (well today for people in the UK, it is still yesterday for me ). What will really get things rolling is an official update outlining the "credit" system that allows you to swap starters for add-ons. That alone will make the upper-levels a lot more enticing for people who don't want 2-3 copies of a starter.

So far the rundown is that each starter is worth £30 and each additional "troop" selection of a level is worth £12 (so you aren't punished for grabbing cheap units now). Since a lot of the upper levels are adding on extras for below even the KS price (the increase from Razide to DL is only £25 for what is normally a £30 upgrade, for example) it will possibly prod a lot of people to increase their pledges a bit to grab more add-ons. It was certainly what spurred me to up mine. But it is a pretty big update to the main page, so my guess is it and the FAQ are waiting on the Website/Forum roll-out that will occur (hopefully) today/morrow.

Hopefully that'll help. Part of my argument is entirely self serving, I do want more cheap stuff. However i do have to agree with some detractors who have stated there should be more free stuff or better deals to entice people as that does help get people to pledge. Personally I'm pledging either way because I want this to do well but there are some who need to feel like it's a bargin..

Being a big Mutant Chronicles fan Im interested but in all honesty their prices and bonuses dont seem very good for a kickstarter....better to just wait for retail/online re-sellers.

If they increase the benefits me/others might commit

They would prolly get more but right now there seems to very little incentive IMO.

Something that Prodos should put up is stretch goal for 65K.

1. Why Tatsumoto has bare forearms? He should wear armoured gloves. It is TG armour after all.
2. Why Necromutant has CC 17? If all stats are between 1-20 then he should be max 14.

brynolf wrote:
Yes, I don't understand the CCG accusation at all. These cards are not that different from the strategy cards in 40K 2nd ed or Fog of War cards in Tomorrow's war (IIRC).

For me it is more on the CCG site since I have to build a deck, I can tweak my deck and I have card playing rules (tapping resource cards, timing etc) that are very similar to CCGs.
IMO more than the games you mention.

But for me it basically boils down to "what I like when playing miniature games".
I like beautifully scenery and even more beautifully painted minis on the tabletop with as less gaming materials on the table as possible.

Marker, dice, cards - all distraction for me that has to be kept to a minimum.
And the rules as they are right now would force me to clutter the table with playing cards... (or use a second table)

In addition I found it very awkward right now to actually build a deck from the pdf provided. Just to get a reasonable number of resource cards I have to print the page with the res card many times over... :(
A good idea would a be a full pre-sorted deck to use right away.

Our Beta Forum is up:

forum.warzonegame.com


Some proposed changes to v1.1 , can be discussed at our forum

WIP of WZR for v1.1

Warzone Resurrection Basic Beta Rules additions to v1.0

Resource cards: ‘Turn to Burn’ one resource card to:
- Gain 1 action point for each ‘Res’ spend (up to a maximum of 3 per phase)
- Gain a Heal(4) for ONE Wound Effect. This can only be attempted once per wound


Tactical Cards: Changed from "they can be issued any point in the game" to "they can only be used between activation of models"

Morale Test: As with ‘Recovery from Pinning’, you can spend one action at the beginning of the units activation to attempt to ‘Regroup from Broken’. This attempt costs all in the squad one action point. This action CAN be repeated twice per activation.

Actions:
Move - Minus one to RoF is removed.
Engaged Action - Changed to basic action (1 Action point). An ‘Engage’ action can only be completed if the target is in range. If the distance moved is reduced and target can not be reached, the ‘engage move’ counts as a Run action (which costs 2 actions).
-Aim Action: same as before plus +2 to St of the shot.

- Rapid fire (advanced action) - RoF of model is increased by ONE, but RS (Range Skill is reduced by 2 for each shot).
- Sentry Action (advanced action (2 action points)
)- you can place up to TWO models per squad in ‘Sentry’. Models in Sentry can use ONE action (cannot be increased by any means) during the enemy’s activation phase. The following ‘Sentry’ actions are allowed: Shooting, Close Combat OR Move).

"Lost Command Chain" - Only occurs when the starting squad leader dies and lasts for the rest of the game
Special Rules:added: - "Spray" – weapons with RoF higher than 1 automatically have the ‘Spray’. Nominate a primary target and a secondary target (within 3" of the primary). Allocate the shots to each target as you wish (remembering modifiers for obscured targets).
'Get the Gun'
When a model with a heavy or a special weapon is removed from play a squad member within 3" can attempt utilise the weapon. Roll a D20, on a roll of 1-10 the weapon is saved (swap the special/heavy model for the normal trooper), on a 11+ the weapon is damaged and unusable. A squad leader can not attempt this roll.

 AAN wrote:

In addition I found it very awkward right now to actually build a deck from the pdf provided. Just to get a reasonable number of resource cards I have to print the page with the res card many times over... :(
A good idea would a be a full pre-sorted deck to use right away.

I'm with Agis on this one. Could we get a page of nothing but resource cards at least?

 Octopussy wrote:
Something that Prodos should put up is stretch goal for 65K.

I fully agree on that. Having 5k goals with small rewards (a new mini or something like that) can be a strong incentive. Speaking just for myself, the 70k goal does not appeal at all to me, while the right kind of stretch goal in between (at 65k) could make me increase my pledge and so contribute also indirectly to the funding of the bigger one (70k goal).

Just to make something clear, I am not asking necessarily for freebies (although I would not say no), just for minis that would make me want throw more cash through my screen

robertsjf wrote:

 AAN wrote:

In addition I found it very awkward right now to actually build a deck from the pdf provided. Just to get a reasonable number of resource cards I have to print the page with the res card many times over... :(
A good idea would a be a full pre-sorted deck to use right away.

I'm with Agis on this one. Could we get a page of nothing but resource cards at least?

This will happen in the shortly to be released v1.1 of the basic beta rules!

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Yeah, right now the shoulders aren't really matching up to the more streamlined concept piece and seems to be trying to capture the huge-pauldron demographic. Either further towards the huge, horizontal pads or smaller and slimmer like the concept. They are the only bit that is bugging me right now. But either way it is a WIP so still time to tweak and improve. Than and I'm waiting to see the render of the second head option with the more pronounced helmet, that was my favourite concept head that they ended up choosing.

This head definitely reminds me of the helmetless mask of the Ducal Militia sergeant.

The details on the rest are looking pretty good as well.

I'd just like to see a few different shoulder pad tweaks since the current ones just aren't doing it for me. But knowing Prodos they'll have a few extra examples and tweaks up their sleeves (remember the difference between the WIP riding pants on Angelika and the more finished one, Prodos are pretty good when it comes to finishing touches).

I am also torn on the sleeves. Maybe a few different arm options with bracers and some with rolled sleeves. They wont always be fighting in the ice rings after all. But for a WIP, it is looking pretty good.

Edit - Looking better already!

I just came across it and I thought that it would be interesting to present it here as an example about how shoulderpads/pauldrons can look both realistic and sci-fi enough:



Maybe Prodos could get some inspiration from these?

 Azazelx wrote:

Mongoose has had Judge Dredd and currently has Rogue Trooper. Which doesn't mean anything specific as we don't know the intricacies of Mongoose's deal with Rebellion or Prodos' deal with Paradox, but people like to keep bandying the "It's licenced, that means they simply can't offer deals!" - so it's worth pointing out. As for deals, they could clearly do better if they chose to, assuming they're going to sell to retailers or even moreso if they plan to sell to wholesalers. They're clearly not choosing to, so c'est la vie.

Mongoose Publishing is owned by Rebellion; Rebellion bought 2000AD back in 2000 and Mongoose in 2008. So there's really no licensing deals there...

Razide has has a nice special on its stat card
Spend 1 Res: Make reroll of failed armour test

And the 60k stretch goal is reached! "Only" 20k more for the first Capitol!

In the meantime, I would love to see some Armoured Chasseur renders

Hmm, because I'm a skeptic I'll hold my celebration for a few hours. If someone were trolling with a big £3000 bid, now would be the time to plunge it. But maybe I spend too much time on internet forums and my faith in humanity has eroded a little.

But if true, then that is great news and occurred a lot faster than I would have expected.

Prodos wrote:

robertsjf wrote:

 AAN wrote:

In addition I found it very awkward right now to actually build a deck from the pdf provided. Just to get a reasonable number of resource cards I have to print the page with the res card many times over... :(
A good idea would a be a full pre-sorted deck to use right away.

I'm with Agis on this one. Could we get a page of nothing but resource cards at least?

This will happen in the shortly to be released v1.1 of the basic beta rules!

Thanks!

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Hmm, because I'm a skeptic I'll hold my celebration for a few hours. If someone were trolling with a big £3000 bid, now would be the time to plunge it. But maybe I spend too much time on internet forums and my faith in humanity has eroded a little.

But if true, then that is great news and occurred a lot faster than I would have expected.

Well, I am not sure if I am too trusty, but on the bright side, Prodos will announce soon a 65k stretch goal.

and here is: an extra £65k stretch goal:

Will the front page be updating to show the 5% off prices when we get there? Always looks good to have a bunch of slashed prices stacked on top of each other. It would also make planning out purchases easier. And do all the trade-ins still trade for their original value? Will my spare starter trade in for the full £30?

Either way, congrats on reaching £60k!

Hm.. 5% off retail prices.
1 free figure when you back at £250+ (US$377+)
4 free figures when you back at £700+ (US$1062+)

I guess it's better than nothing if you're already backing at that level, but it's hardly an incentive for someone who is somewhat interested but still on the sidelines to jump on board...

It adds an incentive to add on an add-on if you've already pledged. Which makes sense. Considering it's a bonus stretch goal that wasn't on the original list, this is pretty good.

 praetor24 wrote:
And the 60k stretch goal is reached! "Only" 20k more for the first Capitol!

In the meantime, I would love to see some Armoured Chasseur renders

Man I'm on the fence with what I'd want to see between Chassuers and Peoples volunteers.... don't they look similar? Those volunteers could go concept as is. That look is not dated. I'd get a few of those

 agustin wrote:
It adds an incentive to add on an add-on if you've already pledged. Which makes sense. Considering it's a bonus stretch goal that wasn't on the original list, this is pretty good.

Yep, I'll certainly pay that point. If you're already on board it's nice.

 Azazelx wrote:
Hm.. 5% off retail prices.
1 free figure when you back at £250+ (US$377+)
4 free figures when you back at £700+ (US$1062+)

I guess it's better than nothing if you're already backing at that level, but it's hardly an incentive for someone who is somewhat interested but still on the sidelines to jump on board...

Actually, according to the quoted price it is 5% off of the KS Price. If it were 5% off of the retail price then it would cost £12.35 (rounded off to the nearest .05 increment). At £11.40 it means we are getting 5% off of the already £1 lower price. Works out to about 14% off at this point (on unit boxes). And if you add in the swap-out deals where you can upgrade to a level for ~£25 and get a £30 starter out of the deal (which can be traded out at face value), then the savings start getting pretty good on a lot of items. And with free shipping in the UK and the ability to get, effectively, £5 shipping outside the UK (if you go for a large order, to be fair) then this is a much better value than I could hope to receive locally or even from an online retailer.

Shipping an order this size from the Warstore would land me in the $30+ shipping range which would eat right through the 20% off I would expect. Calculating things out (for me) back of the napkin style, I'm saving $20-30 on my order over what I would expect from most of my go-to stores (I wont even mention Canadian retailers, between high shipping and high taxes I am usually better off ordering from across the border). So for non-USAians, it is already a pretty good deal at the higher levels, and the flat shipping of £5 on the higher levels is insane the higher you go. Depending on my fundage down the line I will definitely be pushing this higher. When they introduce the 5% off I'll be able to afford to pump a bit more in (mostly random extras like the cards and maybe some extra dice; can never have too many D20's).

I can still see why some would wait for retail of course, people in the US are spoiled for low shipping costs and good discounts from retailer (and taxes that aren't insane). Depending on whether VAT is included in the listed RRP, Brits are still probably getting a good deal.

But either way you slice it, the deal gets better as time goes on and it has already succeeded quite nicely and continues to do well enough to justify its own existence. And at the very least, all the people waiting for retail at least got to take a look at the price of things as they will appear at retailers and can start planning accordingly and prodding their retailers and LGS to carry this stuff when it comes out. Whether they pledge or not, they are at least a potential built-in audience when all of this is said and done and the game is ready to ship. As far as I see, it is all win for Prodos. Back now as an early adopter or buy later from retail, it all feeds and grows the company and the game.

In which province are you, Ronin?

Quebec has pretty steep taxes, but I order from Meeplemart, and they have an almost flat 11$ shipping rate to my place (as long as I don't exceed the "box of boxed games" shipping size) and I only pay GST. And Steve is very swell, has a good staff, they ship quick and answer rather fast to queries.

British Columbia, so according to the site-info I'm tied for second highest shipping price at $16 (nice to see I can share my pain with two of the three territories). Man, poor Nunavut though. And then our Harmonized Sales Tax weighs in at another 12%. The Warstore usually edges them out a few bucks lower on most orders since the extra flat rate on shipping usually isn't as high as the extras I pay in taxes from ordering in-country. Oddly speed isn't different between them either, even after taking customs in to account.

I do get the occasional thing from them though (good boardgame selection). But everytime I get quotes between them for wargaming stuff, The Warstore is just a bit cheaper.

I really wish there was a good West Coast online retailer. Oh well.

@Prodos will you be attending salute this year? Be nice to see a demo or selection of mini's in the flesh as it were.

these shoulders look good to me... face is meh


also found this...
http://www.mutantpedia.com/Immagini,%20Avatar%20e%20Video/Immagini%20Mutant%20Chronicles/Varie/color.html

 5deadly wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:
And the 60k stretch goal is reached! "Only" 20k more for the first Capitol!

In the meantime, I would love to see some Armoured Chasseur renders

Man I'm on the fence with what I'd want to see between Chassuers and Peoples volunteers.... don't they look similar? Those volunteers could go concept as is. That look is not dated. I'd get a few of those

The Armoured Chasseurs' art is already done (check the pic), this is why I mention these. It is more realistic to expect their renders first. But Peoples' Volunteers are next in my wish list.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 5deadly wrote:
these shoulders look good to me... face is meh


also found this...
http://www.mutantpedia.com/Immagini,%20Avatar%20e%20Video/Immagini%20Mutant%20Chronicles/Varie/color.html

I have to concur on the shoulderpads. Although I do not find the helmet bad either.

 Azazelx wrote:
Hm.. 5% off retail prices.
1 free figure when you back at £250+ (US$377+)
4 free figures when you back at £700+ (US$1062+)
I guess it's better than nothing if you're already backing at that level, but it's hardly an incentive for someone who is somewhat interested but still on the sidelines to jump on board...

Actually it is one free BOX at £250 level, in addition to all other free miniatures, previous and later price reductions.
Also keep in mind that kickstarters are for funding a project, not draining it of funds.

SWEET!!

I thought it "only" was a hero... I did pledge for the "Cartel" level and thus will aim to get:

2x Bauhaus Starters
+ 2x Vulcans
+1x Venusian Rangers
+1x Eitoles

1x Cybertronic Starter
+1x Armoured Chasseurs
+1x Machinators

1x Dark Legion Starter (Unless there will be an Imperial one with trenchers in it)
+1x Necromutants
+1x Praetorian Stalkers

Extras added:
1x Vulcan (free from Cartel level pledge)
1x Dice set
1x Dr Diana
1x Immortal
1x Curassiers
1x Max Steiner


Total pledge including the p&p to Sweden: £299 GBP


Depending on unlocks (like Imperial Trenchers) I might toss out the Dark Legion parts. I might ad additional heroes if unlocked and maybe additional squads.

I do love the Mortisfactors too...




WHat I do not like is the Bauhaus Hussars/Rangers. They simply lack the "Bauhaus feel". If given the iconic shoulderpads and the proper facemasks true to the old art, I'd be a very very happy backer!!

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Hm.. 5% off retail prices.
1 free figure when you back at £250+ (US$377+)
4 free figures when you back at £700+ (US$1062+)
I guess it's better than nothing if you're already backing at that level, but it's hardly an incentive for someone who is somewhat interested but still on the sidelines to jump on board...

Actually it is one free BOX at £250 level, in addition to all other free miniatures, previous and later price reductions.
Also keep in mind that kickstarters are for funding a project, not draining it of funds.

I dont know if im misunderstanding something but where does it say you get a free box at cartel level for the stretch goal. As i read it its a free hero mini and further 5% discount on add ons ?

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

Mongoose has had Judge Dredd and currently has Rogue Trooper. Which doesn't mean anything specific as we don't know the intricacies of Mongoose's deal with Rebellion or Prodos' deal with Paradox, but people like to keep bandying the "It's licenced, that means they simply can't offer deals!" - so it's worth pointing out. As for deals, they could clearly do better if they chose to, assuming they're going to sell to retailers or even moreso if they plan to sell to wholesalers. They're clearly not choosing to, so c'est la vie.

Mongoose Publishing is owned by Rebellion; Rebellion bought 2000AD back in 2000 and Mongoose in 2008. So there's really no licensing deals there...

They were partner companies, not owned, and that ended last summer. Still have a good working relationship, though.

-John

The KS has now been updated with a F.A.Q. (scroll to the bottom of the page, here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/mutant-chronicles-warzone-resurrection).

You can now swap stuff (e.g. starter boxes) for credit you can use on other stuff.

Makes the Razide Pledge Level so much more interesting.

RoninXiC wrote:
You can now swap stuff (e.g. starter boxes) for credit you can use on other stuff.

Makes the Razide Pledge Level so much more interesting.

And an upgrade from Dark Legion to Cartel very appealing to me

 praetor24 wrote:
The KS has now been updated with a F.A.Q. (scroll to the bottom of the page, here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/mutant-chronicles-warzone-resurrection).

Thanks Praetor. And also to let you all know there will be a number of new pledge levels coming over the weekend and beyond. One especially for 'gaming clubs'!

This is looking awsome. Now if only they ditched the rolled up sleeves for the bracers like in the concept art these guys would look AWESOME!
=D

The rolled up sleves don't ruin the look thow I will admit. I just think the bracers would look abit better.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Actually it is one free BOX at £250 level, in addition to all other free miniatures, previous and later price reductions.

Really? That's quite different and a much better deal than a single figure, which is what I got from the image above. Not going to debate the other point, as it's been argued endlessly already.

phil751 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Hm.. 5% off retail prices.
1 free figure when you back at £250+ (US$377+)
4 free figures when you back at £700+ (US$1062+)
I guess it's better than nothing if you're already backing at that level, but it's hardly an incentive for someone who is somewhat interested but still on the sidelines to jump on board...

Actually it is one free BOX at £250 level, in addition to all other free miniatures, previous and later price reductions.
Also keep in mind that kickstarters are for funding a project, not draining it of funds.

I dont know if im misunderstanding something but where does it say you get a free box at cartel level for the stretch goal. As i read it its a free hero mini and further 5% discount on add ons ?

Azazelx wrote:Really? That's quite different and a much better deal than a single figure, which is what I got from the image above. Not going to debate the other point, as it's been argued endlessly already.

Okay, guess we talked about different things.
5% discount of £250 is £12.5 equalling 1 free box (but I now see that not all £250 are for add-on boxes).
The free miniature is in addition to that. Too lazy to calculate, if the 1£ reductions for all retail prices also cover 5%.

 Sikil wrote:
Depending on unlocks (like Imperial Trenchers) I might toss out the Dark Legion parts.

Sadly, it looks like neither Mishima nor Imperial will be part of the Kickstarter (except for the Doomtrooper, currently). Prodos did say they have 'special plans' for both Megacorps, but I haven't seen any more detail than that.

Of course, if things change and Imperial do become part of this project, it's all on. I have a burning desire for some new Trenchers, Blood Berets, and Wolfbanes.

Now available on KIckstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/mutant-chronicles-warzone-resurrection?ref=live


New Add-on: Bauhaus Hussars: (Kickstarter Price £12 (RRP £12.99))


Renders of the Bauhaus Starter Set: (Kickstarter Price £30 (RRP £34.99))

Wow, I really like those Hussars.

Double post (sorry)

 02Laney wrote:
Love the look of the hussars now they aren't just standing there. Seriously considering Bauhaus as my first starter set (though the dark legion and pretorian stalkers are pretty tempting too). I suppose it all depends what Capitol look like (damn you for not doing Imperial first!).

Keep up the good work Prodos.

Sure it doesn't help, but Imperial are my personal favourite too!
We do have big plans for them

 cybogoblin wrote:

 Sikil wrote:
Depending on unlocks (like Imperial Trenchers) I might toss out the Dark Legion parts.

Sadly, it looks like neither Mishima nor Imperial will be part of the Kickstarter (except for the Doomtrooper, currently). Prodos did say they have 'special plans' for both Megacorps, but I haven't seen any more detail than that.

Of course, if things change and Imperial do become part of this project, it's all on. I have a burning desire for some new Trenchers, Blood Berets, and Wolfbanes.

The main reason I have managed not to burn money on yet another kickstarter, no imperials yet, though, I have to admit, the Brotherhood mini's in are very tempting atm (as is Bauhaus). I hope I can hold out for a bit, not going back into Warzone is futlie, that is sure, but I don't think my significant other will be very pleased if I just keep on dumping money in left and right

Will the squad cards be purchasable outside of the squad boxes?

Those Bauhaus weapons look very, very flat.

The running poses look kinda ackword. Shouldn't they be running in away were then can bring their weapons to the ready quickly? they are holding them kinda low to the ground. It's not bad, it just seems off. I understand if it's to be able to switch the guns between the two troop choices.

Running well holding your gun above your head seems kinda strange. I would think that's a good way of tiring your arm pretty quickly. lol

The guy taking aim is nice since he is taking a proper shooting stance, thow his legs seem like they are spaced abit to far apart. It makes him look like he's squatting.

The at rest pose holding the gun above the head also seems kinda ackword. Looks like he's trying to flex his muscles to impress a lady or something.

other wise enjoying these greatly!

Please, please do something about the horrible unprotected shoulders, especially in the running pose :(

I don't get it from a tactical perspective, why is covering the arm more important than covering the shoulder? Even modern body armors are made to protect body and shoulders, not arms.

 Azazelx wrote:
Those Bauhaus weapons look very, very flat.

I don't think they're actually finished yet, they kinda look like placeholders.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Those Bauhaus weapons look very, very flat.

I don't think they're actually finished yet, they kinda look like placeholders.

I think that this is correct, plus Prodos has proven that they are ready to adjust their models according to the people's feedback.

 ergotoxin wrote:
Please, please do something about the horrible unprotected shoulders, especially in the running pose :(

I don't get it from a tactical perspective, why is covering the arm more important than covering the shoulder? Even modern body armors are made to protect body and shoulders, not arms.

I must agree, shoulder pads should do just that, protect the shoulders. They look strange the way they are right now. At least they should be placed higher, protecting less arms around the elbow area and more actual shoulders. I do not get it, what was wrong with the original shoulder pad design for Bauhaus? The Brotherhood got their original pads. I think bauhaus should get theirs too.

One more observation. Are there any sargeants for the squads in the army boxes or they will be released separately?

Why are all Hussars armed with LMGs? They should have Panzerknackers.

Those Hussars look great! I'm liking the re-design more and more as well. Makes them more distinct in general body style from Imperials who also favoured segmented, rounded shoulders. The more angular look goes well with their style. The helmet designs are great as well a little nod to Kev White's 2nd Edition Hussars on the second head type.

I also think the guns are place holders or WIP models (still missing a few of the bits from the concept like the ridged rail along the main barrel that seems to be prominent on both the LMG and the Panzerknacker). But they shouldn't play with it too much more. Nothing wrong with a simple, reliable looking gun. Just needs a few final details to finish it off.

New pledge level for gaming clubs: The Gaming Club: This is a special pledge level designed for big groups or clubs. (THE ITEMS IN THIS PLEDGE CAN NOT BE CHANGED FOR KICKSTARTER CREDITS-although you can add-on 'Add-ons'). You get 10 starter sets and 10 limited edition rule and background books. (~$675). Limited to 10

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/mutant-chronicles-warzone-resurrection?ref=live

If I may?

As a runner... that back foot is impossibly placed. Unless it's a dance move, then carry on. If the body is leaning forward that much, and I love that, don't get me wrong, it would need to be in a "toe-off" position.

Anyone notice the backpacks as well? They weren't in any of the renders so far... it's a nice add-on, imho.

New pledge: The Cardinal: This is a special ONE! You get to choose one infantry unit type to get put into production, from any faction. We will then work with you to design them: from art, to concept, to 3D design, to final model. Your chosen squad will be lead by a leader with your face and s/he will feature in the Rule and Background book. You will then get 5 sets of this unit. As well as that, you will get all 4 starter boxes plus 8 extra squads of your choice, Kickstarter Special Edition Grand Strategy Cards Pack (30 cards), Limited Edition T-Shirt and Special Edition Signed Rules and Background Book. (PLEASE NOTE: a couple of units are not available for this offer. Please email us to confirm before you pledge) (~$6000). Limited to 1
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/mutant-chronicles-warzone-resurrection?ref=live

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Why are all Hussars armed with LMGs? They should have Panzerknackers.

I swear this was explained elsewhere, but I can't remember. I think it was Facebook (if Prodos wants to chime in then that'd be great as well). But I think the Panzerknacker version is still the basic one, but Bauhaus Hussars have a unique option of having any member of the unit upgrade to LMGs (costs a lot) rather than only one gunner. Which is, again, why I still think these ones are WIP. Because like the Chasseur and Undead Legionnaires, they have two potential weapon choices for the whole squad. At least that is what I was pulling from memory.

So you could still have a traditional 4 riflemen and one SAW gunner, or they could be deployed with all SAWs in a more support-oriented role.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Why are all Hussars armed with LMGs? They should have Panzerknackers.

The official answer from the KS page:

A quick update. The Bauhaus Hussars will be improved over the weekend, and taking everyone's feedback, we will see newly positioned shoulder pads and some other great improvements.

And answering to these questions:

1) Will they come with multiple head options? It looks like only some of the guys in the renders have the gas-masks.
2) Will they all be armed with LMG, or is that just a place-holder until the assault rifles get rendered?

1. Yes, 15 heads in box of 5 models
2. Yes, its only place holder.


Link here:http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/mutant-chronicles-warzone-resurrection/comments

Ah, there we go, nice and concise. Wow, 15 heads? I wonder what the rest will be like? So far we have pseudo 1st-edition facemask mixed with a bit of Ducal Militia, the 2nd Edition Kev White version. I wonder if the 3rd will be the helmet+gasmask combo? Or maybe a few bare heads.

And I can't wait to see the full render of the finalized Panzerknacker, I always liked the general look of it and the re-design looks perfect.

one of them!

Quite an improvement from the 1st drafts!

M.

The stance seems prety wide to me. looks like he's about to do the splits. lol

Bring his back leg up about a foot's lenght and it would be fine thow.

The helmet and mask looks awsome, and the assault pack and thigh holster is a awesome touch. Relay brings the mini together. Love it.

why are they struggling with bauhaus minis when everything else is awesome? that's not a dynamic pose, that is forced and awkward.

katfude wrote:
why are they struggling with bauhaus minis when everything else is awesome? that's not a dynamic pose, that is forced and awkward.

That is an old concept, there's newer ones further up the chain here! And the final versions will be available early this week

I have really high hopes these hussars are gonna be great. They look way better posed.

Like them, even the stance

Well ,some of the stances can of course be polished, but it's definitely in the right direction.

Mishima Hero Update:



There is something odd with the pose, plus I would have preferred if they showed us renders of the actual releases (e.g. Cybertronic Armoured Chasseurs) rather than the extras.

Still a bad idea that Mishima players can't get their hero miniature.

I'd say its pretty close to the original.

http://www.paulbonner.net/load_colart.php?section=4&imgid=19&imax=42

I guess they will get a similar hero later on.
I think it looks nice except for the sashimono, I might cut it when I get mine.

M.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Still a bad idea that Mishima players can't get their hero miniature.

Limiting anything related to game is bad idea. Limiting hero of army is even worse. Mishima players will probably have to wait many months [maybe even a year] for their army and even then they will not be able to field Tatsumoto because he was kickstarter exclusive.

Shadow Walker wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Still a bad idea that Mishima players can't get their hero miniature.

Limiting anything related to game is bad idea. Limiting hero of army is even worse. Mishima players will probably have to wait many months [maybe even a year] for their army and even then they will not be able to field Tatsumoto because he was kickstarter exclusive.

I don't get this Mishima players' problem. Just get Chasseur: Special Edition Signed Rules and Background Book 24 GBP (~$37) deal and add £4 (per copy) to your pledge. That's it.

magyar wrote:

Shadow Walker wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Still a bad idea that Mishima players can't get their hero miniature.

Limiting anything related to game is bad idea. Limiting hero of army is even worse. Mishima players will probably have to wait many months [maybe even a year] for their army and even then they will not be able to field Tatsumoto because he was kickstarter exclusive.

I don't get this Mishima players' problem. Just get Chasseur: Special Edition Signed Rules and Background Book 24 GBP (~$37) deal and add £4 (per copy) to your pledge. That's it.

Yes it could be that simple but it is not. What about players that want only Tatsumoto miniature? What about players that like Tatsumoto miniature but donot like WZR rules? What about players that join after kickstarter is over?

Those are all first world problems.
If we will see a fully fledged out Mishima army somewhen in the future, I'm sure they will get all neccessary options. This ONE miniature will not break anyones neck.

Shadow Walker wrote:

magyar wrote:

Shadow Walker wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Still a bad idea that Mishima players can't get their hero miniature.

Limiting anything related to game is bad idea. Limiting hero of army is even worse. Mishima players will probably have to wait many months [maybe even a year] for their army and even then they will not be able to field Tatsumoto because he was kickstarter exclusive.

I don't get this Mishima players' problem. Just get Chasseur: Special Edition Signed Rules and Background Book 24 GBP (~$37) deal and add £4 (per copy) to your pledge. That's it.

Yes it could be that simple but it is not. What about players that want only Tatsumoto miniature? What about players that like Tatsumoto miniature but donot like WZR rules? What about players that join after kickstarter is over?

Who said that Tatsumoto will not be released with Mishima army later on? There is a big difference between kickstarter exclusive miniature and kickastarter exclusive character. Nobody said that Tatsumoto will not be released, maybe not in the same pose. Most probable is that they will release different Tatsumoto miniature later on. Thus, the people who like Tatsumoto and those who missed kichstarter will be able to buy tatsumoto, just not the one we see here.

 Miguelsan wrote:
I guess they will get a similar hero later on.
I think it looks nice except for the sashimono, I might cut it when I get mine.

M.

That is correct, Sir.

Great model!... except the pose. Looks rather silly. that sort of trying to look dynamic but actuallly looking silly.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:


one of them!

AWESOME!! Ad Panzerknacker and maybe bulk out the shoulderarmour abit, then move on to the ranger masks!

Somehow the drum magazine of the Rifle is not looking right to me.
German Weapons did not use drum magazines, for me they always create a strong visual link to Soviet SMG armed WWII troops.

1) The weapon is actually just a placeholder. It will end up being the LMG down the line, but the Panzerknacker isn't finished yet.
2) Bauhaus is not just the German faction. They contain German, Russian, French, Italian and several other European countries in their sphere of influence. 2nd Edition beat them in to Space Prussia, but in 1st Edition they were the Space EU (with Russia). The leader of the Ministry of War is Duke Romanov, so a bit of Russian design influence works for me.

 AAN wrote:


Somehow the drum magazine of the Rifle is not looking right to me.
German Weapons did not use drum magazines, for me they always create a strong visual link to Soviet SMG armed WWII troops.

I like it. Much better than the original concepts. I would like the better Bauhaus units to have more traditional shoulderpads, but this works for Ducal militia.

Oh wow, that new image with the panzerknacker and the shoulder pads looks nice!

Shouldn't that Panzerknacker have more than one barrel? It looks like it has the Grenade Launcher attachment, but no second barrel.

Aslo, I know is a bit nitpicky, but Bauhaus weapons had very small ejection ports because the ammo is caseless, and was only used id there was a ammo malfunction. Or is that just a charging handle?

i must say it.... niceeeee, I love where the shoulder pads are now. Big YES

UPDATED concept for Venusian Rangers... the old one did not work out :(

 ergotoxin wrote:
I'd say its pretty close to the original Bonner Tatsumoto.

Pretty close, but the shoulder pads need some work to be as elegant as the ones in the illustration. They don't need to be as epically huge as the pic, but the shapes need to be nuanced a bit: plates need to be shown as thin plates, not a solid mass and more recurve at the upper point of each plate.

This is the kind of thing that hurt a lot of the original WarZone figs; great art, but sloppy sculpting of figures that did not begin to capture the character of the art.
this Tatsumoto fig is a huge improvement over the original, but still needs some tweaking to be a great figure.

Tim

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
UPDATED concept for Venusian Rangers... the old one did not work out :(

Kind of on the fence on that one. I never liked the hood and cape, I always thought that was more for the Marshals. If executed well though it might be nice, I just hated how it looked on the old minis. That hood and even the mask gives them a nice grim reaper appearance, which while not traditional, I think works nicely.

Do not like fur and lion on chest.

I think its wolf not lion... and its GREAT ! konck, knock, Venusian death stalking...

Interesting - not how I think of Venusian Rangers, but cool nonetheless.

Hmm, got to agree on the hood and cloak. If done well (and you guys seem to be good at pleasantly surprising me) then it could look great, but I was never a big fan of heavy cloaks on jungle fighters. But if you keep them relatively light (more like camo capes) then it could work. And is that wolf just a symbol painted on the breastplate? I'm kind of hoping so, I'm a fan of House Romanov of course, but I think keeping special forces like the Venusian Rangers fairly clean on specific iconography is for the best. Liking the overall look of the mask either way.

I'm also glad you at least stuck with the angled shoulders of the newer artwork as well. Now they will be much more distinct from Imperial. Though I was never one of the people who hated the old arm-guards on the previous Hussar designs, these new ones do look pretty snazzy.

I'm also in love with the new Panzerknacker. Chunky and utilitarian, it looks like you could drop it from space, pick it up and it would still fire perfectly. Lack of an underbarrel GL in the basic design isn't huge for me (can always be added on to units who have it as an option) because the stats in Warzone never reflected it having one (even though it did in the RPG). If there is ever a unit that needs the UBGL added on then the base model should have room for the upgrade.

Either way, good job guys, but don't go sinking all your funds in to redesigning stuff. People can be fickle and capricious even when you give 'em everything they want.

I'm really liking the furry grim reaper look. Skull mask/helmet and cape is appropriate. I like Ronin_eX's idea of a light cape instead of heavy fur cape.

I do not like the animal on the chest at all.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Finally! Love this, thanks for listening to the fans



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
UPDATED concept for Venusian Rangers... the old one did not work out :(

I like this a lot better then old concept. The only things I don't like is the animal on the chest and if it has a cape don't make it fur, maybe a camo cape or something. I do like the hood and mask on this.

I love both of the new designs.

Michal on Warzone forum posted:
The wolf on chest will be a relief, like on Romanian ceremonial armor.

In this fact this will be very nice

I liked the arm gaurds. But the newer version looks good thow.
=)

As for people still worried about the kickstarter exclusive mini. I assume when they do Mishima they are going to still have this character as a model. The point is that this specific sculpt of the hero is going to be a kickstarter exclusive. I mean, alt sculpts of characters isn't a new thing to wargameing guys. Malifaux and Warmahords have alt scuplts of a bunch of their heros and units.

If you want this spefic version of the character then you need to jump onto this kickstarter.

GrandLegion wrote:
Michal on Warzone forum posted:
The wolf on chest will be a relief, like on Romanian ceremonial armor.

In this fact this will be very nice

This sounds awesome!!!

Ah, good to hear it is a relief (hehe). Hopefully there will be a few bare torsos though. But I think it will look good and be easy to mod if you don't like it (GW liquid greenstuff is useful for fixing more than just their mistakes!). But with all that said, knowing they had to redesign it for everyone else and force me to wait longer for the render makes me hate other people (not Prodos though, those guys rock ).

Rangers looks pretty bad ass! I agree with them needing a lighter cape.

After seeing all the feedback actually being used and the great sculpts and renders I am very excited to see Capitol arrive.

Notice, though, no breadbags on the feet.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Notice, though, no breadbags on the feet.

Don't worry, the TRUE FANS will be along shortly to complain about how one must have hobo-shoes or it is not being true to High Lord Bonner!

But seriously, the new concept rocks (even if I also liked the old one).

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Wow, this is great!

Though since someone always has to complain, I guess I'll be That Guy and say I don't really care for the exposed eyes and think it would be cooler (and perhaps even more sensible) if he had lenses.

BUT. It's still frigging brilliant, and I'm totally sold on Bauhaus regardless and it will be the first army I buy, exposed eyes or not.

well done like that there's the option to show the eyes

or add a dab og green stuff to make a full face mask

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
well done like that there's the option to show the eyes

or add a dab og green stuff to make a full face mask

That's a good point. Like I said, I like it anyway, and that's a pretty elegant solution to my (tiny, basically a non-)issue.

Great stuff! The rifle looks good and I like the more armoured look of the rangers. I also like the idea of camocloaks over heavy fur.

GrandLegion wrote:
Michal on Warzone forum posted:
The wolf on chest will be a relief, like on Romanian ceremonial armor.

Still not convinced by the wolf shirt, would look better without:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
[/URL]

GrandLegion wrote:Michal on Warzone forum posted:
The wolf on chest will be a relief, like on Romanian ceremonial armor.

In this fact this will be very nice

Pity. It really should be left blank. Having a wolf on all of the Rangers doesn't make sense from what I remember of the fluff and it will look pretty silly. This isn't 40K after all. Also, the cloak should be left off for the "basic" Rangers. Marshalls would look good with both the cloak and some bas relief on their armor (but not the wolf).

Also, add back the thigh plates please? It makes sense for the elites to at least know to cover their femoral arteries...

Ronin_eX wrote:But with all that said, knowing they had to redesign it for everyone else and force me to wait longer for the render makes me hate other people (not Prodos though, those guys rock ).

Ronin_eX wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Notice, though, no breadbags on the feet.

Don't worry, the TRUE FANS will be along shortly to complain about how one must have hobo-shoes or it is not being true to High Lord Bonner!

But seriously, the new concept rocks (even if I also liked the old one).

Why are you always attacking people who don't agree with you?

~Eric

Loving the concept for the Venusian Rangers!

~Eric
OMG, did you ever saw the original figures? You should be happy, coz with PRODOS you get figures as art! Its concept BTW, RANGER by BONNER was in full plate with skull gas mask....

GrandLegion wrote:
~Eric
OMG, did you ever saw the original figures? You should be happy, coz with PRODOS you get figures as art! Its concept BTW, RANGER by BONNER was in full plate with skull gas mask....

Really not certain what you are trying to say here.

I like the Bonner art (minus the stupid boots and the size of the shoulder pads). It needs some updating, however. The new Ranger art is nice, but still needs some tweaking.

As to figures as art, we'll see. Not many figures have been shown yet, and most of the renders leave a lot to be desired in my opinion.

~Eric

DP

The wolf relief looks kinda odd. Especaily for something called a "ranger".

I understand that these rangers are fighting in a jungle most of the time? Why are they wearing fur, in a tropical environment? (One that I assume is also humid) I could understand if they were wearing camo clocks and a dark green or brown coloured armour for sneaking around in the jungle. (As oppose to the bright white armour of the regulars.)

But wearing ceremonial armour and fur coats well running around out in a jungle? Am I miss understanding the fluff? Are these guys meant to be some sort of elite guard, or actual Rangers? A mini should sort of tell a story about the kind of unit it's representing after all.

My 2 cents.

Wow, full website appears to be up.

http://warzonegame.com/

Well, looks like I'll be converting my rangers out of Hussars then.

The wolf on the chest is just dorky. Otherwise it'd be one badass model.

v.1.1 Rules.

http://warzonegame.com/info/rules.html

Please, please remove the chest animal face. Kroothawk... that tshirt is really eerie. Like it has depth for some reason... creepy.

I thought the animal face was painted on, not in 3d, sculpted on.

If they can pull off the cloak, go for it. They seem to be a step above the sculpting capabilities of the original minis, after all. It could be reminescent of ancient cultures' rites of initiation and brotherhood.

madzerker wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Finally! Love this, thanks for listening to the fans



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
UPDATED concept for Venusian Rangers... the old one did not work out :(

I like this a lot better then old concept. The only things I don't like is the animal on the chest and if it has a cape don't make it fur, maybe a camo cape or something. I do like the hood and mask on this.

Those pauldrons look so much better than the weird arm badge thingy, now just shrink them down to a more realistic size 'bout 15% less than what they are now and you will have it!

The new ranger concept looks really cewl! But I'm really no fan of the wolf-head, a smooth breast plate will look sooo much better.

I have a question about this game I hope someone can answer.

In this game does your army have to be lead by a named character? Is their no options for generic characters so you can make your own heros?

I only ask because it seems the Bauhaus and Dark Legion boxs come with named characters, well the Cybertronic and Brotherhood boxs don't have named characters.

In the first edition, you had the choice of a few named characters per faction, and many, many generic options for heroes.

If I remember correctly, there was no army leader per se. Just a limited amount of heroes you could field, so they tended, in my meta, to be used to their maximum potential.

 Lockark wrote:
I have a question about this game I hope someone can answer.

In this game does your army have to be lead by a named character? Is their no options for generic characters so you can make your own heros?

I only ask because it seems the Bauhaus and Dark Legion boxs come with named characters, well the Cybertronic and Brotherhood boxs don't have named characters.

There will be generic characters and apparently Prodos is bringing back customization ala 1st Edition. During 2nd and Ultimate characters were basically purchased as a package deal, no real variation or anything. But 1st Edition was quite a bit more RPG-like with it. Now, in 1st this caused a few troubles, though most of those were found in the ability to grab 4+ actions for a character and then have them sport the biggest guns in the game while having some of the highest skills. Luckily Prodos seem to have fixed a lot of these issues. So hopefully they can give that awesome custom-character flavour without having guys firing 12+ rounds of tank-killer strength shots the shred whole squads. But considering at their peak they can get three actions now, that should be less of an issue.

The named characters are just a good way to grab some brand recognition right of the bat, since Bonner tended to do paintings of the movers and shakers (especially Mitch Hunter, the Capitol version of every action movie star ever).

But the news of custom characters has me excited. I wonder if their will be conversion rules for the RPG again?

I think more than the RPG element, though, it was fun because it allowed the player to tailor his heroes to his play-style.

That is definitely true. If they can give us that feeling but without the Nimrod-toting Walking Minister of Death vibe, then I'll be happy. I mean, I still want 'em to have heavy and special weapons as an option, I just don't want then to clear out a 10-man squad in one round of firing. The hero in the Beta actually feels pretty good. Strong enough to go on his own, but a squad is definitely a threat to him if he gets too cocky. They felt sufficiently two-fisted and pulpy without overpowering things. Give them a good list for custom abilities and gear and I will be in heaven.

That's cool to know. I just wasn't sure since in the beta rules they had unit cards. I like named charaters and all, but I also like the option for build-a-charaters. It's a relife to know their will be both.

Speaking of RPG elements, have their been any talk about campaign rules? Because if they included a blank templet in the rule book you can fill out with the name, statline, and XP of your heroes. That could make for some interesting campaign rules.

 Lockark wrote:
I have a question about this game I hope someone can answer.

In this game does your army have to be lead by a named character? Is their no options for generic characters so you can make your own heros?

I only ask because it seems the Bauhaus and Dark Legion boxs come with named characters, well the Cybertronic and Brotherhood boxs don't have named characters.

Brotherhood got Cardinal Dominic as a named character but I'm not sure If the Everassur is a named character or not but I've got the impression It somehow is.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Damn, now I have to get money so I can pledge.

Kudos, thank you for listening!

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Congratulations on listening to the red tinted glasses crowd, ruining the best improvement you did on the basic bauhause form and ruining the only faction I was interested in getting a starter for.

Seriously why this change why shoulderpads that float on thin air, why the sudden fall back to 20 years back no sense design, I thought the project was to bring the warzone IP to the modern era.

Michal@Prodos wrote:Relief stays, but noone said it will be only one version of torso.

So for all the wolf-haters out there, it wont be the only torso option, but it will be there. So at least a nice compromise.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

Michal@Prodos wrote:Relief stays, but noone said it will be only one version of torso.

So for all the wolf-haters out there, it wont be the only torso option, but it will be there. So at least a nice compromise.

Good to know