Primark G wrote: If you know you’ll be up against him bring a Culexus.
Which limits his psy potential but does nothing to actually stop the guy from tearing your army apart.
And your not even going to stop the one power that matters. The Time Warp that gets him into combat T1 because no good player will let you DS a Culexus close enough, Nurglings will push you back to far.
Primark G wrote: If you know you’ll be up against him bring a Culexus.
Which limits his psy potential but does nothing to actually stop the guy from tearing your army apart.
And your not even going to stop the one power that matters. The Time Warp that gets him into combat T1 because no good player will let you DS a Culexus close enough, Nurglings will push you back to far.
In this case Acolytes bubbling Ahriman in the back! Plus the mission had hammer and anvil deployment.
Unfortunately I didn't have my Caladius which I think would've helped a lot.
Ordana you bring in the Assassin between Morty and your battleline so the daemon Primarch must pass by it. It’s a very effective deterrent. Of course you have a psyker(s) as well.
Primark G wrote: Ordana you bring in the Assassin between Morty and your battleline so the daemon Primarch must pass by it. It’s a very effective deterrent. Of course you have a psyker(s) as well.
How is he a deterrent? Mort doesn't care about 4 str 4 attacks. Shooting him doesn't do anything either. Yeah, he has some trouble hitting you back but 18 attacks and his MW aura arn't good for the assassin.
And he will happily Fly over you and charge something actually juicy.
Primark G wrote: Morty can hit a gun line turn 1 unless you blunder your deployment. The Assassin is both a buffer to your army and debuffs Morty who is a psyker.
Not by a ton though. Morty's primary damage comes from a Mortal Wounds Aura which is independent of the psychic phase. That did more damage to me than all his spells and all his attacks combined and makes dogpiling him risky (because it hits everything in 7" at the start of each Fight phase).
Primark G wrote: Morty can hit a gun line turn 1 unless you blunder your deployment. The Assassin is both a buffer to your army and debuffs Morty who is a psyker.
Except you aren't stopping the one power he really needs (Warptime). That's the point people are trying to make to you. He doesn't NEED to cast anything. Him being able to cast and deny is merely a bonus.
I agree and as said before you have to kill him in one turn or he will wreck you. His invul is so so imo... I light up at range on his way in. Null Zone ruins his day.
Primark G wrote: Morty can hit a gun line turn 1 unless you blunder your deployment. The Assassin is both a buffer to your army and debuffs Morty who is a psyker.
Except you aren't stopping the one power he really needs (Warptime). That's the point people are trying to make to you. He doesn't NEED to cast anything. Him being able to cast and deny is merely a bonus.
If you go first you can place the Assassin in range for the debuff.
Primark G wrote: I agree and as said before you have to kill him in one turn or he will wreck you. His invul is so so imo... I light up at range on his way in. Null Zone ruins his day.
Primark G wrote: Morty can hit a gun line turn 1 unless you blunder your deployment. The Assassin is both a buffer to your army and debuffs Morty who is a psyker.
Except you aren't stopping the one power he really needs (Warptime). That's the point people are trying to make to you. He doesn't NEED to cast anything. Him being able to cast and deny is merely a bonus.
If you go first you can place the Assassin in range for the debuff.
You do know that if your plan relies on you going first that it's a bad plan right?
Plus you do remember the range on the Cukexus aura right?
Then you're admitting the idea doesn't really work out well as:
1. You rely on going first
2. You have to go through the potential Nurglings and Pox Walkers
3. Assume that either candidate will be within range (the Sorcerer or Mortarion) to be affected.
Primark G wrote: I redid the math for 3x Allarus and Trajann vs 3x Jetbike and Shield-Captain vs Baneblade chassis. They do roughly 9 wounds each the first round then after that the Allarus inflict more damage each subsequent turn.
So you call into the question the math on the previous page?
Have the decency to show where it is wrong.
ps 3 bikes just meleeing already do more then 9 dmg. Not counting their shooting, the captain or the 4th bike to adjust for Trajann's cost.
JNAProductions wrote: Allarus get 35/6 hits with each gun, and Trajaan gets 35/18 hits.
That becomes 245/1,296 wounds with each, except Trajaan, who gets 245/324.
At AP-1, D2, and AP-3, D1, that's 245/2,592 and 245/648 at D2, and 1,225/7,776 at D1.
Total damage in shooting? (245/2592+245/648)*2+1,225/7,776=(.09+.38)*2+.16=1.10 damage.
In close combat, you get 35/3 Axe hits, 175/36 Trajaan hits, and 35/9 from Misericordias.
That's 245/36 Axe wounds, 1,225/324 Trajaan wounds, and 35/27 Misericordia wounds.
With a 5+ save on all that except Trajaan, that's 245/54 Axe wounds, 70/81 Misiericrodia wounds, and 6,125/1,944 Trajaan wounds.
Total CC damage? (245/54+6,125/1,944)*2+70/81=(4.54+3.15)*2+.86=16.24 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE ALLARUS AND TRAJAAN
17.34
Praetors get 175/3 hits.
175/18 wounds.
175/54 damage.
Total damage in shooting? 175/54=3.24 damage.
In close combat, they get 245/12 hits.
Wounding on 5s, rerolling, gets us 5/9 chance of wounding, for 1,225/108 wounds.
With -3 AP on all that, that's 6,125/648.
Total CC damage? (6,125/648)*2=18.90 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR FOUR VERTUS PRAETORS AND CAPTAIN ON DAWNEAGLE
22.14
If I had to guess, though, it'd take only a single extra round to make up the difference. Double-checking that...
11.34 damage on each next round for Praetors, 16.24 damage for Allarus. So actually, they're basically equal round two (a difference of a tenth of a point of damage) and the Allarus do better round three.
Except there is no round 3. The Baneblade is dead by then.
Now, for bonus maths, I'm going to AnyDice, and checking the odds of them one-rounding this thing.
Allarus and Trajaan can one-round a Baneblade .15% of the time (26+ wounds), drop it to the bottom bracket 5.51% of the time (20+ wounds), drop it to the second bracket 52.95% of the time (13+ wounds). All percentages are INCLUSIVE, meaning the chance of not bracketing it at all are 47.05%.
Praetors and Captain can one-round a Baneblade 24.57% of the time (26+ wounds), drop it the bottom bracket 70.23% of the time (20+ wounds), drop it to the second bracket 97.80% of the time (13+ wounds). All percentages are INCLUSIVE, meaning the chance of not bracketing it at all are 2.20%.
Edit: Also, outside of Mathhammer, the Praetors are far, FAR more likely to be doing the charging and be in rapid fire range, since they're more than twice as fast.
18.90 damage in CC from three Praetors and a Captain in CC against a Baneblade, on the turn they charge. They are quite likely to get the charge, since they can Fly, and can get a GUARANTEED charge from just under 16" away, and reliably make charges from even further.
Not to mention that, combine shooting and CC, and Allarus+Trajaan have barely over a 50% of bracketing a Baneblade, whereas Praetors have a just over 70% chance of dropping it the bottom bracket.
Primark G wrote: All your stats are correct. By the way it is "Trajann".
My bad on the spelling. I can admit when I make mistakes, and that's definitely one of them.
But ultimately, I don't care enough to edit every post and fix that, so Trajaan it will remain for the earlier posts. Will obviously correct it going forward.
Assuming a captain for all, will do math both with and without movement. Assuming it's a vehicle for all but T7 3+/4++ (Daemon Primarchs), who are also assumed to always be flying.
T7 3+ Bolters do 35/6 hits at 24", which is 35/18 wounds, and 35/54 damage.
2+ Melta Missile does 35/36 hits, 70/81 wounds, and 245/81 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 7/9 hits, 56/81 wounds, and 196/81 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/18 hits, 35/36 wounds, and 35/36 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 14/9 hits, 7/9 wounds and 7/9 damage.
4+ Flakk Missile does 7/6 hits, 7/12 wounds, and 7/12 damage.
T7 3+ Supersonic Bolters do 14/3 hits, 14/9 wounds, and 14/27 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 196/81 damage. (See math above.)
4+ Melta Missile does 7/12 hits, 14/27 wounds, and 49/27 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/36 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 7/9 damage.
T7 3+/4++ Bolters do 35/54 damage.
2+ Melta Missiles does 35/36 hits, 35/54 wounds, and 245/216 damage.
3+ Melta Missle does 7/12 hits, 7/18 wounds, and 49/72 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/36 damage.
T8 2+ Bolters do 35/6 hits, 35/36 wounds, and 35/216 damage.
2+ Melta Missile does 35/36 hits, 105/144 wounds, and 3,675/1,728 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 7/12 hits, 7/16 wounds, and 245/192 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/18 hits, 35/54 wounds, and 35/81 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 14/9 hits, 14/27 wounds, and 28/81 damage.
4+ Flakk Missile does 7/6 hits, 7/18 wounds, and 7/27 damage.
Now, applying the math, we'll assume as equal points as possible. So, with Salvo Launchers, we have 175 for the Captain, and 105 for each Praetor. For bolters, we have 160 for the Captain, and 90 for each Praetor.
6 total Salvo Launchers (one on a Captain) are 700 points, 7 total Hurricane Bolters (one on a Captain) are 700 points.
Assuming they move, you're looking at...
4.54 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+.
14.52 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Missiles are the clear winner, even at 12".
3.63 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+ Supersonic.
10.89 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Again, Missiles win.
4.54 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+/4++.
5.83 damage from Flakk Missiles against the same.
Missiles win at 24", but lose at 12".
1.13 damage from Bolters at 24" against T8 3+.
7.66 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Missiles are the winner.
HOWEVER! An important note to make here is that a lot of the stuff you'd want to fire missiles at, you'd also want to CHARGE. And Praetors can charge even flyers. So ask yourself, is anti-tank more important than anti-horde?
If you do consider anti-tank more important, then yeah, go for the missiles. They win against most.
We're going to probably be putting more value into units like slamguinius who can make the first unoverwatchable charge with a reroll before allarus or bikes go in. With tau back on top with the t'au faction we're going to get hurt a lot by overwatch as basically an extra shooting phase.
Charge him into anything that isnt Infantry or cant be terrified to stop multiple units overwatching your custodes.
Meatgrinder wrote: We're going to probably be putting more value into units like slamguinius who can make the first unoverwatchable charge with a reroll before allarus or bikes go in. With tau back on top with the t'au faction we're going to get hurt a lot by overwatch as basically an extra shooting phase.
Charge him into anything that isnt Infantry or cant be terrified to stop multiple units overwatching your custodes.
Things like Tau are the only reason I'm using a unit of Terminators. Their ability to deny overwatch is the only powerful feature about them, but it's usefulness is undeniable.
That being said, if you do take more than one, take them in different squads. That way, you can either remove them first (if you're against Hordes) or last (Tanks) as well as split-firing as needed.
Primark G wrote: Allarus are good at many things and I believe their grenades only affect infantry so be careful.
Mediocre at many things is more how I'd describe them, given their points cost.
Praetors do pretty much everything they do better.
The problem with spreading Salvo's around is getting them to be able to shoot at the same target.
Tho this will ofc heavily depend on what terrain your dealing with.
Ordana wrote: The problem with spreading Salvo's around is getting them to be able to shoot at the same target.
Tho this will ofc heavily depend on what terrain your dealing with.
Fair enough. Given the bikes' mobility, though, probably not TOO much of an issue.
Primark G wrote: Geoff Robinson has stated they are viable and that is good enough for me seeing his recent showing at Adepticon.
Not good enough for him to actually bring any tho ^^
No one is denying they are Viable. They certainly are.
But they are (in most cases) worse then Bikes
Primark G wrote: Trajann buffs to Custodes units is highly underrated and jetbikes are overrated. Allarus if properly used are one of the best units in the codex. I also happen to like Wardens since they can take axes - I run a Vanguard detachment by the way. Jetbikes are good but I wouldn’t build my army around them.
Allarus fall apart when facing an enemy with fly that they cannot one shot, or fail that whole 8 inch charge in the first place. There's a lot of armies that falls in to.
No but you constantly claim things like 'Allarus are superior to Jetbike Custodes in many situations' and 'Jetbikes have weaknesses so you should not build an army around them'. You then have nothing to back up these bold claims when people call you out and provide hard evidence that refutes your statement, yet you keep coming back to the thread and saying the same things.
If you don't like Vertus Praetors that much, thats fine its your army. But don't come into this thread and keep spouting inaccuracies about them like you have done for the last 20-30 pages.
I have often explained in-depth the strengths of Allarus and the weaknesses of Vertus Praetors.
I did my statistical analysis of (A) Trajann and Allarus Custodians versus (B) Shield-Captain mounted on a dawneagle and Vertus Praetors against a Baneblade chassis in one round of melee.
I picked a unit of three Allarus Custodians and a unit of three Vertus Praetors since this is what you typically see in actual army lists. I convert the net results for both groups into points divided by wounds to determine overall punch. I believe this approach provides more tangible results.
Group (A) does 20 total unsaved wounds while group (B) does 17. Group (A) is rated at 25.7 points per wound while (B) is 26.2. The difference is 0.5 which imo is insignificant.
I'm surprised by the apparent popularity of Slamguinius. Are you really gonna give up all your CP to kill one thing? What detachment does he go in?
Can I model my jetbikes to have both Salvo Launchers and Hurricane Bolters then use whichever my list demands? What will the typical ITC tourney do if I did?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Assuming a captain for all, will do math both with and without movement. Assuming it's a vehicle for all but T7 3+/4++ (Daemon Primarchs), who are also assumed to always be flying.
T7 3+ Bolters do 35/6 hits at 24", which is 35/18 wounds, and 35/54 damage.
2+ Melta Missile does 35/36 hits, 70/81 wounds, and 245/81 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 7/9 hits, 56/81 wounds, and 196/81 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/18 hits, 35/36 wounds, and 35/36 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 14/9 hits, 7/9 wounds and 7/9 damage.
4+ Flakk Missile does 7/6 hits, 7/12 wounds, and 7/12 damage.
T7 3+ Supersonic Bolters do 14/3 hits, 14/9 wounds, and 14/27 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 196/81 damage. (See math above.)
4+ Melta Missile does 7/12 hits, 14/27 wounds, and 49/27 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/36 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 7/9 damage.
T7 3+/4++ Bolters do 35/54 damage.
2+ Melta Missiles does 35/36 hits, 35/54 wounds, and 245/216 damage.
3+ Melta Missle does 7/12 hits, 7/18 wounds, and 49/72 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/36 damage.
T8 2+ Bolters do 35/6 hits, 35/36 wounds, and 35/216 damage.
2+ Melta Missile does 35/36 hits, 105/144 wounds, and 3,675/1,728 damage.
3+ Melta Missile does 7/12 hits, 7/16 wounds, and 245/192 damage.
2+ Flakk Missile does 35/18 hits, 35/54 wounds, and 35/81 damage.
3+ Flakk Missile does 14/9 hits, 14/27 wounds, and 28/81 damage.
4+ Flakk Missile does 7/6 hits, 7/18 wounds, and 7/27 damage.
Now, applying the math, we'll assume as equal points as possible. So, with Salvo Launchers, we have 175 for the Captain, and 105 for each Praetor. For bolters, we have 160 for the Captain, and 90 for each Praetor.
6 total Salvo Launchers (one on a Captain) are 700 points, 7 total Hurricane Bolters (one on a Captain) are 700 points.
Assuming they move, you're looking at...
4.54 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+.
14.52 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Missiles are the clear winner, even at 12".
3.63 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+ Supersonic.
10.89 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Again, Missiles win.
4.54 damage from Bolters at 24" against T7 3+/4++.
5.83 damage from Flakk Missiles against the same.
Missiles win at 24", but lose at 12".
1.13 damage from Bolters at 24" against T8 3+.
7.66 damage from Melta Missiles against the same.
Missiles are the winner.
HOWEVER! An important note to make here is that a lot of the stuff you'd want to fire missiles at, you'd also want to CHARGE. And Praetors can charge even flyers. So ask yourself, is anti-tank more important than anti-horde?
If you do consider anti-tank more important, then yeah, go for the missiles. They win against most.
So if they move, 3 Shield Captains can't even kill a Rhino? Does anyone know how Geoff's list performed at Adepticon with 3x Salvo Shield Captains as the main anti-tank?
The back-and-forth about Allarus vs Vertus Praetors is a bit tired. Allarus are obviously the weaker choice based on the "eye test," and the math has borne that out repeatedly. Can we all just agree that Primark found some amazing and long-lasting wacky tobacky and move on after he names his source?
Anyway, it does surprise me some that salvo launchers made it to a high-achieving Adepticon list. They don't seem like they'd be worth the points at all. On the flip side, horde control is often in short supply for tiny elite armies, so hurricane bolters are a great match..
Primark G wrote: I have often explained in-depth the strengths of Allarus and the weaknesses of Vertus Praetors.
I did my statistical analysis of (A) Trajann and Allarus Custodians versus (B) Shield-Captain mounted on a dawneagle and Vertus Praetors against a Baneblade chassis in one round of melee.
I picked a unit of three Allarus Custodians and a unit of three Vertus Praetors since this is what you typically see in actual army lists. I convert the net results for both groups into points divided by wounds to determine overall punch. I believe this approach provides more tangible results.
Group (A) does 20 total unsaved wounds while group (B) does 17. Group (A) is rated at 25.7 points per wound while (B) is 26.2. The difference is 0.5 which imo is insignificant.
Please post your math. I posted my math, and point for point, the Praetors are more than 150 times as likely to one-round a Baneblade as the Allarus are.
So how about I model the jetbikes with a Hurricane Bolter on the left and Salvo Launcher on the right and use what my list demands. Will I get in trouble for that?
Kzraahk wrote: Has anyone tried out the Caladius yet? Seems a bit overcosted but really solid
If you look earlier in the thread I tried it out a lot. It's actually really good, but it costs a bit too much. It'll still get destroyed pretty fast by even a glance from your opponent's anti-tank so you want to abuse it's massive range and move, but this is a perverse incentive cause you ALSO don't want it to get the -1 to Hit for moving and shooting.
So it needs Power of the Machine Spirit and a slight points drop, but if you're running pure Custodes it will do faaaaaaar more work for you than the missile launchers on the bikes.
Primark G wrote: I have often explained in-depth the strengths of Allarus and the weaknesses of Vertus Praetors.
I did my statistical analysis of (A) Trajann and Allarus Custodians versus (B) Shield-Captain mounted on a dawneagle and Vertus Praetors against a Baneblade chassis in one round of melee.
I picked a unit of three Allarus Custodians and a unit of three Vertus Praetors since this is what you typically see in actual army lists. I convert the net results for both groups into points divided by wounds to determine overall punch. I believe this approach provides more tangible results.
Group (A) does 20 total unsaved wounds while group (B) does 17. Group (A) is rated at 25.7 points per wound while (B) is 26.2. The difference is 0.5 which imo is insignificant.
Please post your math. I posted my math, and point for point, the Praetors are more than 150 times as likely to one-round a Baneblade as the Allarus are.
I will post my calcs tomorrow since I left them at work.
Primark G wrote: I have often explained in-depth the strengths of Allarus and the weaknesses of Vertus Praetors.
I did my statistical analysis of (A) Trajann and Allarus Custodians versus (B) Shield-Captain mounted on a dawneagle and Vertus Praetors against a Baneblade chassis in one round of melee.
I picked a unit of three Allarus Custodians and a unit of three Vertus Praetors since this is what you typically see in actual army lists. I convert the net results for both groups into points divided by wounds to determine overall punch. I believe this approach provides more tangible results.
Group (A) does 20 total unsaved wounds while group (B) does 17. Group (A) is rated at 25.7 points per wound while (B) is 26.2. The difference is 0.5 which imo is insignificant.
Please post your math. I posted my math, and point for point, the Praetors are more than 150 times as likely to one-round a Baneblade as the Allarus are.
I will post my calcs tomorrow since I left them at work.
Better question, then-is my math wrong? You seemed to accept it earlier-so what has changed?
No need to magnetise them, just build the bikes entirely without the weapons (disregard the instructions) and then push them in from the front once everything's painted. They click in nicely as if they were designed to do so, and you can gently pull them out using your fingernail
Spartacus wrote: No need to magnetise them, just build the bikes entirely without the weapons (disregard the instructions) and then push them in from the front once everything's painted. They click in nicely as if they were designed to do so, and you can gently pull them out using your fingernail
This will make me hate GW less for including only one bare head out of three sprues that could otherwise have been identical. Thank you.
This will make me hate GW less for including only one bare head out of three sprues that could otherwise have been identical. Thank you.
Oh, please! If you have a Custodes Army then you should have more then enough bare heads from Allaruses and Wardens to make as many Captains as you want. Just magnetise that heads and go on.
This will make me hate GW less for including only one bare head out of three sprues that could otherwise have been identical. Thank you.
Oh, please! If you have a Custodes Army then you should have more then enough bare heads from Allaruses and Wardens to make as many Captains as you want. Just magnetise that heads and go on.
That doesn't make GW any less obnoxious for not including a couple more 1mm bits of plastic to their $60 kit.
This will make me hate GW less for including only one bare head out of three sprues that could otherwise have been identical. Thank you.
Oh, please! If you have a Custodes Army then you should have more then enough bare heads from Allaruses and Wardens to make as many Captains as you want. Just magnetise that heads and go on.
That doesn't make GW any less obnoxious for not including a couple more 1mm bits of plastic to their $60 kit.
Eww, why use bare heads? All my Captains wear helmets. GW is King of fugly.
This will make me hate GW less for including only one bare head out of three sprues that could otherwise have been identical. Thank you.
Oh, please! If you have a Custodes Army then you should have more then enough bare heads from Allaruses and Wardens to make as many Captains as you want. Just magnetise that heads and go on.
That doesn't make GW any less obnoxious for not including a couple more 1mm bits of plastic to their $60 kit.
Eww, why use bear heads? All my Captains wear helmets. GW is King of fugly.
How do you differentiate your captains from regular Custodes?
This will make me hate GW less for including only one bare head out of three sprues that could otherwise have been identical. Thank you.
Oh, please! If you have a Custodes Army then you should have more then enough bare heads from Allaruses and Wardens to make as many Captains as you want. Just magnetise that heads and go on.
That doesn't make GW any less obnoxious for not including a couple more 1mm bits of plastic to their $60 kit.
Eww, why use bear heads? All my Captains wear helmets. GW is King of fugly.
How do you differentiate your captains from regular Custodes?
Well for one: the capes. Take the Warden Box for an example. The guy with the massive cape over his shoulders and back is the Captain and he certainly stands out. This is the guy I'm talking about, I just put a helmet on him:
For Custodian Guard, they have a half-skirt that just goes around the back part of their waist. Makes them stand out again. I also re-appropriated their Vexilla to give them wings (the Custodian Guard Vexilla is has two separate eagle wings with chains and tassels. I put those on their shoulders instead). Here's an example of how someone else did it on Google so you can see what I'm talking about:
So just things like that. It's plenty enough to tell them apart.
EDIT: Wow that second pic is huge, someone post with a complaint if you want me to just make it a URL instead.
karandrasss wrote: I'm surprised by the apparent popularity of Slamguinius. Are you really gonna give up all your CP to kill one thing? What detachment does he go in?
Can I model my jetbikes to have both Salvo Launchers and Hurricane Bolters then use whichever my list demands? What will the typical ITC tourney do if I did?
So if they move, 3 Shield Captains can't even kill a Rhino? Does anyone know how Geoff's list performed at Adepticon with 3x Salvo Shield Captains as the main anti-tank?
I think most tournaments would frown upon putting in 1 of each weapon since it kinda violates the #1 rule for models. There should be no confusion for your opponent what model has what weapon.
Fortunatly the models fit snug enough together that you can simply not glue in the guns and click them in from the front after you have glued the rest together. That way you can switch out weapons as needed.
Yes the BA captain is imo worth the CP cost. But this is talking from a competitive standpoint where you bring allies to up your CP count.
My own list runs an mixed Imperium Battalion with Guard (Plasma Scions + Celestine) for the CP battery (Grand Stratagist + Kurov's aquilla) a BA battalion with the captain + 3x5 scouts (and Mephiston) for area denial and a Custodes outrider with bikes.
That gives me 10 CP, 3 of which are spend pre-game (Relic for Custodes and BA captain and death visions). The remaining 7 CP are more like 10-13 because of returns from the Guard.
The Salvo launchers are not there to actually kill tanks. The list does that by charging them and poking with sharp sticks. The launchers however help to soften up targets and reduce the effectiveness of tanks by degrading them. If you want real AT you need to bring them from allies.
karandrasss wrote: I'm surprised by the apparent popularity of Slamguinius. Are you really gonna give up all your CP to kill one thing? What detachment does he go in?
Can I model my jetbikes to have both Salvo Launchers and Hurricane Bolters then use whichever my list demands? What will the typical ITC tourney do if I did?
So if they move, 3 Shield Captains can't even kill a Rhino? Does anyone know how Geoff's list performed at Adepticon with 3x Salvo Shield Captains as the main anti-tank?
I think most tournaments would frown upon putting in 1 of each weapon since it kinda violates the #1 rule for models. There should be no confusion for your opponent what model has what weapon.
Fortunatly the models fit snug enough together that you can simply not glue in the guns and click them in from the front after you have glued the rest together. That way you can switch out weapons as needed.
Yes the BA captain is imo worth the CP cost. But this is talking from a competitive standpoint where you bring allies to up your CP count.
My own list runs an mixed Imperium Battalion with Guard (Plasma Scions + Celestine) for the CP battery (Grand Stratagist + Kurov's aquilla) a BA battalion with the captain + 3x5 scouts (and Mephiston) for area denial and a Custodes outrider with bikes.
That gives me 10 CP, 3 of which are spend pre-game (Relic for Custodes and BA captain and death visions). The remaining 7 CP are more like 10-13 because of returns from the Guard.
The Salvo launchers are not there to actually kill tanks. The list does that by charging them and poking with sharp sticks. The launchers however help to soften up targets and reduce the effectiveness of tanks by degrading them. If you want real AT you need to bring them from allies.
karandrasss wrote: I'm surprised by the apparent popularity of Slamguinius. Are you really gonna give up all your CP to kill one thing? What detachment does he go in?
Can I model my jetbikes to have both Salvo Launchers and Hurricane Bolters then use whichever my list demands? What will the typical ITC tourney do if I did?
So if they move, 3 Shield Captains can't even kill a Rhino? Does anyone know how Geoff's list performed at Adepticon with 3x Salvo Shield Captains as the main anti-tank?
I think most tournaments would frown upon putting in 1 of each weapon since it kinda violates the #1 rule for models. There should be no confusion for your opponent what model has what weapon.
Fortunatly the models fit snug enough together that you can simply not glue in the guns and click them in from the front after you have glued the rest together. That way you can switch out weapons as needed.
Yes the BA captain is imo worth the CP cost. But this is talking from a competitive standpoint where you bring allies to up your CP count.
My own list runs an mixed Imperium Battalion with Guard (Plasma Scions + Celestine) for the CP battery (Grand Stratagist + Kurov's aquilla) a BA battalion with the captain + 3x5 scouts (and Mephiston) for area denial and a Custodes outrider with bikes.
That gives me 10 CP, 3 of which are spend pre-game (Relic for Custodes and BA captain and death visions). The remaining 7 CP are more like 10-13 because of returns from the Guard.
The Salvo launchers are not there to actually kill tanks. The list does that by charging them and poking with sharp sticks. The launchers however help to soften up targets and reduce the effectiveness of tanks by degrading them. If you want real AT you need to bring them from allies.
That's more imperium soup than Custodes army, no?
Its 1030 out of 2000 points Custodes ^^
But yes its very soup. Which, imo, is simply what a competitive Custodes army will look like. A Custodes Battalion spends to much filling troops and dropping one of the 2 battalions runs you into CP issues (you can drop the BA captain and save on CP use there but you still want scouts for area denial.
karandrasss wrote: I'm surprised by the apparent popularity of Slamguinius. Are you really gonna give up all your CP to kill one thing? What detachment does he go in?
Can I model my jetbikes to have both Salvo Launchers and Hurricane Bolters then use whichever my list demands? What will the typical ITC tourney do if I did?
So if they move, 3 Shield Captains can't even kill a Rhino? Does anyone know how Geoff's list performed at Adepticon with 3x Salvo Shield Captains as the main anti-tank?
I think most tournaments would frown upon putting in 1 of each weapon since it kinda violates the #1 rule for models. There should be no confusion for your opponent what model has what weapon.
Fortunatly the models fit snug enough together that you can simply not glue in the guns and click them in from the front after you have glued the rest together. That way you can switch out weapons as needed.
Yes the BA captain is imo worth the CP cost. But this is talking from a competitive standpoint where you bring allies to up your CP count.
My own list runs an mixed Imperium Battalion with Guard (Plasma Scions + Celestine) for the CP battery (Grand Stratagist + Kurov's aquilla) a BA battalion with the captain + 3x5 scouts (and Mephiston) for area denial and a Custodes outrider with bikes.
That gives me 10 CP, 3 of which are spend pre-game (Relic for Custodes and BA captain and death visions). The remaining 7 CP are more like 10-13 because of returns from the Guard.
The Salvo launchers are not there to actually kill tanks. The list does that by charging them and poking with sharp sticks. The launchers however help to soften up targets and reduce the effectiveness of tanks by degrading them. If you want real AT you need to bring them from allies.
karandrasss wrote: The top 8 Adepticon list had 1500pts of Custodes and no ranged anti-tank outside Salvo Launchers. What do you think of that?
Custodes can do it in CC just fine so I don't think its a problem.
I just think that if your going for a CC route you need to go all in on it and not 'waste' 450 points on Custodes guard.
But I can't point at an Adepticon top 8 so its just talk ^^
Can not agree more. One should decide wether he is going to play Custodes or make a strong competitive army. You can not have both in one.
And about Adepticon lists: I'm very sorry but the only Top-16 list including Custodes is AM army with 3 bike-captains as allies at 10-th place. It is definitely NOT Custodes list and it is NOT in the Top-8.
Can not agree more. One should decide wether he is going to play Custodes or make a strong competitive army. You can not have both in one.
And about Adepticon lists: I'm very sorry but the only Top-16 list including Custodes is AM army with 3 bike-captains as allies at 10-th place. It is definitely NOT Custodes list and it is NOT in the Top-8.
Nope. The initial top 16 posts were wrong. Geoff "Incontrol"Robinson made top 8 with a Custodes army.
karandrasss wrote: The top 8 Adepticon list had 1500pts of Custodes and no ranged anti-tank outside Salvo Launchers. What do you think of that?
I think Adepticons missions and Terrain are both backwards, dated concepts that caused very fringe lists to win the event.
Flyrant spam that the UK has been complaining for months is a "fringe list?"
Compared to the rest of the US Meta, where our main rule set (ITC) has instituted rules that give you both extra points for killing characters, for killing units with 10+ wounds, and that gives you the ability to actually hide in ruins and not be shot?
Just double checking, 3 Allarus+Trajann vs. a Baneblade, and then 3 Praetors+Captain on Dawneagle vs. the same? You didn't give exact numbers, so I'm assuming min squads.
Allarus and Trajann are 502 points.
Praetors and Dawneagle Captain are 430.
NOTE! Doing the math here has made me realize I made a minor mistake in my last vs. Baneblade math-I goofed on the Allarus shooting. Since I used Anydice for the percentages, though, those should still be accurate.
Allarus have 6 Axe shots and 6 Grenade shots, Trajann has 2 shots.
35/6 hits from Axes and Grenades, 35/18 hits from Trajann.
245/216 wounds from Axes and Grenades, 245/324 wounds from Trajann.
245/432 unsaved wounds from Axes, 1,225/1,944 unsaved wounds from Grenades, and 245/648 unsaved wounds from Trajann.
Total shooting damage? (245/432+245/648)*2+1,225/1,944=(.57+.38)*2+.63=2.53 damage.
In close combat, there are 12 attacks at S8 and 5 at S10.
35/3 Axe hits, and 175/36 Trajann hits.
245/36 Axe wounds, and 1,225/324 Trajann wounds.
245/54 unsaved Axe wounds, and 6,125/1,944 unsaved Trajann wounds.
Total CC damage? (245/54+6,125/1,944)*2=(4.54+3.15)*2=15.38 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE ALLARUS AND TRAJAAN
17.91, or 28.03 points per wound.
Praetors have 48 bolter shots.
140/3 hits.
70/9 wounds.
70/27 unsaved wounds.
Total shooting damage? 70/27=2.59 damage.
In close combat, there are 17 attacks at S6, rerolling wounds.
595/36 hits.
2,975/324 wounds.
14,875/1,944 unsaved wounds.
Total CC damage? (14,875/1,944)*2=(7.65)*2=15.30 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE VERTUS PRAETORS AND CAPTAIN ON DAWNEAGLE
17.89, or 24.04 points per wound.
About a 15% improvement in damage done per point. And, despite being 72 points cheaper, they output basically the same amount of damage.
As for the note above, actual shooting damage for the Allarus and Trajann should do 1.13 from Axes, .95 from Grenades, and .76 from Trajann, for 2.84. A difference of 1.74 damage, for 19.08 damage total. Still significantly behind the Praetors.
Edit: Add .25 to Trajann's CC damage, for the Misiericordia.
That makes the total for Trajann and Allarus 18.16, for 27.64 points per wound.
It doesn't make much of a difference. 15% difference, about.
Which means this:
Primark G wrote: I did my statistical analysis of (A) Trajann and Allarus Custodians versus (B) Shield-Captain mounted on a dawneagle and Vertus Praetors against a Baneblade chassis in one round of melee.
I picked a unit of three Allarus Custodians and a unit of three Vertus Praetors since this is what you typically see in actual army lists. I convert the net results for both groups into points divided by wounds to determine overall punch. I believe this approach provides more tangible results.
Group (A) does 20 total unsaved wounds while group (B) does 17. Group (A) is rated at 25.7 points per wound while (B) is 26.2. The difference is 0.5 which imo is insignificant.
Primark G wrote: I am not misleading but you go out of your way to make it seem so... like how originally you added an extra Vertus Praetor to boost their results.
I quoted the post where you gave faulty math. You then proceeded to avoid actually showing your math, which would have to have significant errors, for quite a while, until I did the math for you (which took less than ten minutes, so you easily could've redone the math yourself had you actually cared) and showed that were, objectively speaking, giving false information.
Saying Allarus are better than Praetors is not objectively false, or at least, cannot be proven objectively false in total, due to the ridiculous number of factors, but enough has been shown that makes that doubtful. A single squad of Allarus might be decent to include, because they DO have various good stratagems, but whereas you'd be foolish to build an army of nothing but Allarus, you could build an army of nothing but Praetors and do pretty okay. Not high-level competitive, but nothing pure Custodes is that.
Edit: I see you added to your post.
I added an extra Vertus Praetor to make the points as close to equal as possible-which is why I then added Misericordias to the Allarus to make up the small gap, as much as able to. Which, speaking of which, I actually DID forget to add Trajann's Misiericordia. I'll edit the post to fix that, because that is 100% my bad.
Edit II: Added the Misiericrodia, it made very little difference.
I can't show the math because I am out of my office today - are you calling me a liar?
I have never said Allarus are better but often you imply or say directly that I do. My point has always been that they are a good unit and that they work for me. I feel like you cannot let it ever ride and will not stop until I say Allarus are not good. They have done great for me so far... sorry if you don't like it then may consider hitting the IGNORE button and move along.
Primark G wrote: I can't show the math because I am out of my office today - are you calling me a liar?
I have never said Allarus are better but often you imply or say directly that I do. My point has always been that they are a good unit and that they work for me. I feel like you cannot let it ever ride and will not stop until I say Allarus are not good. They have done great for me so far... sorry if you don't like it then may consider hitting the IGNORE button and move along.
I'm saying you're either lying OR your math was wrong. My math has been wrong too-I acknowledged that and added corrections. There's nothing wrong with making a mistake, but sticking to your math when it was shown wrong is arguing dishonestly. And, again, doing the math does not take long-you can easily redo it from home.
Is my math wrong? After the correction of adding the Misiericordia, is it wrong? Because if it is NOT wrong, then yours is. And if it is wrong, please show where, so I can fix it.
And you pretty clearly imply that Allarus are the superior unit. But, if I've been reading you wrong, then clear the air now-which is the superior unit? Allarus or Praetors? And by what degree are we talking?
I have never said they are superior nor have I ever meant to imply it... to me neither is overall superior - they both have their strengths. Some here are "BIKES FOR DAYS!" which is fine but any time I mention Allarus this gets thrown in my face every time. I think the bikes are the easiest to play for sure.
Think a lot of the problem comes from your unsubstantiated claims which you are constantly making excuses not to post, while contesting other peoples posted math.
If you want to have a discussion about why X is good in Y situation over Z thats fine, but stop claiming X is better than Z without backing up why.
Primark has a postion which has been well-established. Other people disagree with him. The math has been done, which shows that the bikes output more damage per point (or cost less points to do the same damage)
Let’s not beat a dead horse.
What’s much more significant in my opinion is that the Allarus and bikes have a different amount of wounds (4) than base Custodes (3). I think it’s important to have wound diversity, as that makes it difficult for your opponent to not waste damage with multi-damage weaponry.
Of course, as I say this, I have a pure bikes list with guard and assassin support.
One question I’m wondering is whether I should be taking a Culexus and a callidus or two Culexus (or maybe I can make some points to take all 3). I’ve played with the callidus and I love what she does to CP, but the Culexus is just stupid. Except against reapers. When is that FAQ coming again?
I’d do 2 culexus, they are the most survivable assasin by far and give you psychic resistance, which you need anyway. With 2 spread out you could probably get away with only the denial warlord trait or even no psyker support at all for a lot of lists.
Also, the 4 wounds is huge because weapons do 1, 2, or a multiple of 3 for damage. While you can find some cheap 3 dmg weapons, D6 are much more rare and more importantly, deal random damage. Which means even something like a lascannon will fail to one-shot a biker or terminator 50% of the time, and because they’re rocking a 4++ it’s not unreasonable that one of these models could absorb 4 lascannon/melta WOUNDS before he dies.
Itll be interesting to see if the Forge World terminators get rules - 3++ terminators rocking power fists and such would be pretty mean. Might be whats needed to put Termies over bikes.
As for now, do you guys think running a batallion for pure Custodes is worth it, or would it be better to run Outrider and Vanguard detachments to get Bikes/Termies? Sure, less command points, but no Custodian Guard tax.
Custodian Guard are reasonable, and they can be hard to kill, making them good at sitting on objectives. I have taken Geoff’s list from AdeptiCon and updated it a bit to fit my liking a bit more. Not sure if it’s even good, but I’ll test it out soon enough. Here is is:
Crazyterran wrote: Itll be interesting to see if the Forge World terminators get rules - 3++ terminators rocking power fists and such would be pretty mean. Might be whats needed to put Termies over bikes.
As for now, do you guys think running a batallion for pure Custodes is worth it, or would it be better to run Outrider and Vanguard detachments to get Bikes/Termies? Sure, less command points, but no Custodian Guard tax.
Custodian Guard don't really work against a strong opponent unless you Stratagem deepstrike a big squad of 'em I find. They can be ignored for a few turns while they advance which is no good if the game is decided by then.
Clearly you can't deepstrike with 3 squads in a battalion. Part of the reason pure Custodes will always struggle as things are. Maybe a huge blob of 20+ Guard might be fun?
+ Heavy Support + Basilisks [7 PL, 108pts] . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
Basilisks [7 PL, 108pts] . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
You can try Basilisks of course, but I'm not very impressed with them. I play IG as my main army and tried to utilise Basilisks (I like them aesthetically) but their performance in quite underwhelming. LRs with their ability to shoot twice easily outshine Basilisks in almost every possible situation.
I like the Culexus for the anti psy which is sorely needed for Custodes plus if you play them right (e.g. keep the away from enemy flamers) that are very survivable.
OK, let's see what we have here:
1. Bike spam, check.
2. IG Battalion with mortar spam, check.
3. Assassins, check.
It is not a "Custodes army" it is a classical Imperial Soup army with Custodes as it's main part.
I would bet you that with the current codex you will never see a more 'Custodes' army in the top 50? of a tournament the size of Adepticon then what Geoff brought. The army as a stand-alone will not function at a high level.
(FW might change that once we get the full rules but then it probably means the FW stuff is broken OP).
I would bet you that with the current codex you will never see a more 'Custodes' army in the top 50? of a tournament the size of Adepticon then what Geoff brought. The army as a stand-alone will not function at a high level.
I can not agree more. And that's why people keep saying that Custodes is not a competitive army. They require allies (or be taken as allies to someone else) to have any success on the Sporthammer scene. They are just not in the same league as IG, DG, Eldar, Tyranids or new Necrons which are totally able to compete on their own.
AstraVlad wrote: You can try Basilisks of course, but I'm not very impressed with them. I play IG as my main army and tried to utilise Basilisks (I like them aesthetically) but their performance in quite underwhelming. LRs with their ability to shoot twice easily outshine Basilisks in almost every possible situation.
What is your typical LR load out? I was lucky enough to be given two by a friend recently and have options.
What is your typical LR load out? I was lucky enough to be given two by a friend recently and have options.
I mostly use basic LRBTs with Lascannon in a hull and 2 Heavy Bolters in sponsons. If I'm tight in points I change LC for another HB. Or if there are points to spare it can be a good idea to upgrade HBs to Plasma Cannons. It depends on the rest of your army and an enemy you are expecting to fight.
So I am looking to get started with custodes, as I love the models and know they will be extremely powerful in my local meta. I am looking to buy
Valoris- to use as a shield captain but the model is too good to miss out on
2 boxes of custodian guard
2 boxes of vertus praetors
3 boxes of allarus terminators
To build this list:
Battalion
Shield captain on dawneagle jetbike, bolters, spear, WL superior creation, auric aquilis
Shield captain with castellan axe
3 custodian guard, spears
3 custodian guard, spears
3 custodian guard, spears
Vexilla praetor in allarus, vexilla magnifica, misericordia
8 allarus custodians, axes
5 jetbikes all bolters
~2000 (I figured it out earlier to be 2k exaxct I think)
I don't have points on me now but that's what I came up with earlier.
Tactics:
Put vexilla and termies in the air, deepstrike vexilla and use the teleport beacon for a 3 inch charge. These will smash in combat and afterward use unleash the lions to make them hard to focus properly. I don't need to use teleport beacon if I want other CP left, but it's nice.
Walk up everything else like normal with jetbikes and captain on one flank walk dudes on the other.
What do you think? Is it worth starting custodes?
Thanks for any help!
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, I do not want to have to run anything other than custodes and this list is for fun. Whilst I am not opposed to doing a pure bike list I do not want to. Thanks!
“Put vexilla and termies in the air, deepstrike vexilla and use the teleport beacon for a 3 inch charge. These will smash in combat and afterward use unleash the lions to make them hard."
The Vexilla has to be on the table at the start of the turn. I put mine by a bait unit.
UTL is situational and I I think you need at least five Allarus.
The terminator Vexila can drop in near the bike captains and give them all +1 attack on turn 2 or 3 when they are in the thick of it. the magnifica hangs back with the troops defending them and helps the bikes on turn 1.
Termy captain picks one of the bike guys that looks like he wont get the first charge off so he can counterbop whatever goes for him.
Your only spending 1-3 command points (victor of blood games on relic bike if you want) at start so you have 6-4 for the rest of the game.
UTL is situational and I I think you need at least five Allarus.
I have 8.
I am thinking of trying to fit in a single tank commander punisher with kurovs Aquila and brilliant strategist. This will get me more CP and some very nice anti infantry.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm going to, as a bit of a meme, test a 10 man normal guard squad deep striking. I'll report how it does versus competitive lists once it's built up.
Don't deepstrike them near a Roboute Guilliman castle with 10 intercessors with stalker bolt rifles. It isn't pretty.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm going to, as a bit of a meme, test a 10 man normal guard squad deep striking. I'll report how it does versus competitive lists once it's built up.
I think if you’re doing a big squad it’s gotta be allarus to use their split stratagem.
Brigade wastes points trying to fill slots and you don't need that much CP.
Why waste points on a Commisar.
The Battalions can't even run the CP battery since Primaris Psykers can take neither the Kurov's Aquilla nor Grand Strategist.
Switch 2 Psykers for Commanders so you can spread out the Aquilla and GS.
Drop the Commisar
Use the points to buy Mortars so you can atleast pretend to do something with the IG.
The answer to what Custodes to bring is always 'moar bikes'.
Can confirm, blood angels are a wonderful ally for Custodes.
I've personally been using them with Scout bikes for additional chaff clearing, but until the FAQ my Vanguard of 3 assassins and a company commander and BA Battalion are mandatory with all my Custodes lists.
Cephalobeard wrote: Can confirm, blood angels are a wonderful ally for Custodes.
I've personally been using them with Scout bikes for additional chaff clearing, but until the FAQ my Vanguard of 3 assassins and a company commander and BA Battalion are mandatory with all my Custodes lists.
What do you think will change with the FAQ to make you want to switch up your list?
No idea what will happen. I have several fallbacks, including dropping the soup detachment for a Custodes battalion, using more BA for Sanguinary guard backup, a list that literally uses like 30 scout bikes, etc.
All gonna depend on the FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Currently, the idea is to hard shift into an Outrider primary of 3 Captains and 3 Bike squads with BA backup.
I'm also testing, as above, a ten man custodian blob using the index rules for a Vexilla in the squad to see how much damage that can do.
Cephalobeard wrote: Can confirm, blood angels are a wonderful ally for Custodes.
I've personally been using them with Scout bikes for additional chaff clearing, but until the FAQ my Vanguard of 3 assassins and a company commander and BA Battalion are mandatory with all my Custodes lists.
What do you think will change with the FAQ to make you want to switch up your list?
You might not be able to use Imperium or Chaos keywords when filling a detachment.
Cephalobeard wrote: Can confirm, blood angels are a wonderful ally for Custodes.
I've personally been using them with Scout bikes for additional chaff clearing, but until the FAQ my Vanguard of 3 assassins and a company commander and BA Battalion are mandatory with all my Custodes lists.
What do you think will change with the FAQ to make you want to switch up your list?
You might not be able to use Imperium or Chaos keywords when filling a detachment.
Cephalobeard wrote: Can confirm, blood angels are a wonderful ally for Custodes.
I've personally been using them with Scout bikes for additional chaff clearing, but until the FAQ my Vanguard of 3 assassins and a company commander and BA Battalion are mandatory with all my Custodes lists.
What do you think will change with the FAQ to make you want to switch up your list?
You might not be able to use Imperium or Chaos keywords when filling a detachment.
with the increase of cp to battalions, you'd just take a battalion with 3 units of custodes guards then fill the points in with captains and bikes then fill a vanguard with assassins, and get 9 cp instead of 5
Shinymarine wrote: The new deepstrike beta rules make Allarus, and the termi vexilla an even worse choice All Hail Bike Spam
Except now they recommend we're capped at 3 bikes per army for tournaments.
2 bikes + Caladius in one detachment.
1 bikes + Caladius + need another Fast unit for 2nd.
One of the beta rules blocks soup detachments so you can't take units from different codices any more.
That's half true, you can no longer load up sisters of battle, assassins and space wolves in one detachment anymore, but you can still take a custodes detachment, a sisters detachment and an assassins detachment
I almost never deep strike my Allarus outside of my deployment zone so it has zero affect on me. When I first was listening to the podcast I thought they said everything has to DS first turn.
It does make it so that I will struggle to fit my wardens in an army any more, but the extra command points feel good. I can’t take 4 shield captains any longer or 4 bike squads, but that was always a bit of a rough patch
I think the limitation (there can be only three) will make players take a harder look at Allarus again. Spamming bikes is just not cool and GW taketh away!
Primark G wrote: I think the limitation (there can be only three) will make players take a harder look at Allarus again. Spamming bikes is just not cool and GW taketh away!
And the new deep strike rules will make them look right away again
Honestly, ideal setup for pure Custodes is probably a bike outrider squad than a battalion with Caladius/Dreadnoughts.
stratigo wrote: It does make it so that I will struggle to fit my wardens in an army any more, but the extra command points feel good. I can’t take 4 shield captains any longer or 4 bike squads, but that was always a bit of a rough patch
Just spice them up. It's 0-3 per datasheet and Captains have 3 datasheets. You can have up to 9 Captains.
stratigo wrote: It does make it so that I will struggle to fit my wardens in an army any more, but the extra command points feel good. I can’t take 4 shield captains any longer or 4 bike squads, but that was always a bit of a rough patch
Just spice them up. It's 0-3 per datasheet and Captains have 3 datasheets. You can have up to 9 Captains.
stratigo wrote: It does make it so that I will struggle to fit my wardens in an army any more, but the extra command points feel good. I can’t take 4 shield captains any longer or 4 bike squads, but that was always a bit of a rough patch
Just spice them up. It's 0-3 per datasheet and Captains have 3 datasheets. You can have up to 9 Captains.
stratigo wrote: It does make it so that I will struggle to fit my wardens in an army any more, but the extra command points feel good. I can’t take 4 shield captains any longer or 4 bike squads, but that was always a bit of a rough patch
Just spice them up. It's 0-3 per datasheet and Captains have 3 datasheets. You can have up to 9 Captains.
Taking anything but a bike shield captain is heresy. What it has made interesting is working in a battalion of actual custodes
I use Trajann and he rocks. I have never used my Allarus for an alpha strike and they do some work every game. Big bike squads are easy to target, three man units is ideal.
stratigo wrote: It does make it so that I will struggle to fit my wardens in an army any more, but the extra command points feel good. I can’t take 4 shield captains any longer or 4 bike squads, but that was always a bit of a rough patch
Just spice them up. It's 0-3 per datasheet and Captains have 3 datasheets. You can have up to 9 Captains.
Not in a tournament though.
Yes in a tournament. The 0-3 is for datasheets.
Are you suggestion we should take a captain on foot? And then walk him over to the enemy? In tourney? No offense but i'm not convinced that's gonna work ^^
Allarus captain might work.
now we need lots of LOS blocking terrain on the table more then ever. at least fi you want to survive 2 or 3 turns of shooting from IG or Tau.
stratigo wrote: It does make it so that I will struggle to fit my wardens in an army any more, but the extra command points feel good. I can’t take 4 shield captains any longer or 4 bike squads, but that was always a bit of a rough patch
Just spice them up. It's 0-3 per datasheet and Captains have 3 datasheets. You can have up to 9 Captains.
Not in a tournament though.
Yes in a tournament. The 0-3 is for datasheets.
Are you suggestion we should take a captain on foot? And then walk him over to the enemy? In tourney? No offense but i'm not convinced that's gonna work ^^
Allarus captain might work.
now we need lots of LOS blocking terrain on the table more then ever. at least fi you want to survive 2 or 3 turns of shooting from IG or Tau.
Well, only take the regs if you really need to trim points or want that 7th, 8th or 9th Captain, but you get the idea.
Primark G wrote: I use Trajann and he rocks. I have never used my Allarus for an alpha strike and they do some work every game. Big bike squads are easy to target, three man units is ideal.
You are going to struggle to take more than 9 bikes in any regard. And I have trouble imagining more than, say, 12 normal bikers
I honestly would've liked it more if they gave the +5/+12 CP from Batallions/Brigades to armies that are battle forged from a single faction to incentivize a mono Custodes build more while soup armies only get +3/+9 like they used to. As it stands, it's a bit of a wash that doesn't help mono army builds as much as it should have but overall the FAQ itself is decent enough, just glad I get to start with 8 CP now!
Has anyone gotten some play time with the FW units now that it's been a while since the beta rules came out? I'm getting a Contemptor Achillus soon and I'm considering a Caladius Grav Tank, have they done any solid work for you guys?
Has anyone gotten some play time with the FW units now that it's been a while since the beta rules came out? I'm getting a Contemptor Achillus soon and I'm considering a Caladius Grav Tank, have they done any solid work for you guys?
I've played 3 games with the dread and found it to be a decent if slightly overcosted choice, the shooting is nice and the cc is good enough, tried the Caladius last game against dark eldar and hated the lack of mobility unless i want to watch its hit chance tank the base profile for it seems way overcosted after running into wave serpents on a frequent basis
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I honestly would've liked it more if they gave the +5/+12 CP from Batallions/Brigades to armies that are battle forged from a single faction to incentivize a mono Custodes build more while soup armies only get +3/+9 like they used to. As it stands, it's a bit of a wash that doesn't help mono army builds as much as it should have but overall the FAQ itself is decent enough, just glad I get to start with 8 CP now!
Has anyone gotten some play time with the FW units now that it's been a while since the beta rules came out? I'm getting a Contemptor Achillus soon and I'm considering a Caladius Grav Tank, have they done any solid work for you guys?
yeah, you're still going to see "Custodes.. plus a bare minimum IG brigade for CPs"
Has anyone gotten some play time with the FW units now that it's been a while since the beta rules came out? I'm getting a Contemptor Achillus soon and I'm considering a Caladius Grav Tank, have they done any solid work for you guys?
I've played 3 games with the dread and found it to be a decent if slightly overcosted choice, the shooting is nice and the cc is good enough, tried the Caladius last game against dark eldar and hated the lack of mobility unless i want to watch its hit chance tank the base profile for it seems way overcosted after running into wave serpents on a frequent basis
The Caladius is deceptively good, but it badly needs Power of the Machine Spirit. Against many targets, especially ones with invulnerable saves like Tesseract Vaults and Imperial Knights, I believe it's main gun alone should do about as much damage as two Neutron Laser Onagers on average (280 points) with a much better chance of not stiffing you with 0 damage.
Custodes remain doin gak all damage on a charge against tau while losing chunks for the temerity of charging. Three games against the tau and they have been the most dull gak I have ever had to deal with in this game "Here, imma sit in this corner and shoot you. And even when you get close enough to charge me, you do no damage and iI just shoot you more, never moving". You know what's not a fun way to win a game? Hiding your entire army for 5 turns and jumping out on the objectives in the last few turns because your army can't actually do any damage and the tau player is too boring to bother moving,
Really wish I hadnt invested in allarus feeling like they could compete with bikes. That was a mistake. Now I feel theyre just awful. Coming in t2 means they do next to nothing. Now there really is no reason to take them over bikes. Thanks gw, what were you thinking with these changes? It just shows a distinct lack of understanding about the state of the game.
The fw tanks seem appealing to keep us competitive, the contemptors now seem a lot worse.
Tau are back on top as just the worst army to play against, and the beta rules are a straight buff to them. They now cant be alpha striked, you have to suffer an extra shooting phase plus overwatch, from multiple units too. They can just bunker up and play to table you, ignoring objectives. Its happened to me twice so far where Ive been ahead on objectives and lost to tau overwhelming firepower,
Meatgrinder wrote: Really wish I hadnt invested in allarus feeling like they could compete with bikes. That was a mistake. Now I feel theyre just awful. Coming in t2 means they do next to nothing. Now there really is no reason to take them over bikes. Thanks gw, what were you thinking with these changes? It just shows a distinct lack of understanding about the state of the game.
The fw tanks seem appealing to keep us competitive, the contemptors now seem a lot worse.
Tau are back on top as just the worst army to play against, and the beta rules are a straight buff to them. They now cant be alpha striked, you have to suffer an extra shooting phase plus overwatch, from multiple units too. They can just bunker up and play to table you, ignoring objectives. Its happened to me twice so far where Ive been ahead on objectives and lost to tau overwhelming firepower,
Yeah, I'm having a hard time justifying any form of Custodes dreadnought at the moment. The Grav-Tank seems the clear standout and almost good enough to hang with the bikes. It really just needs Power of the Machine Spirit and maybe a small points drop (to like 300).
any tank more than like 250 points really is tough to justify unless it has some real shenanigans like being able to deep strike. A big tank is just so vulnerable in this edition that it's almost always better to disperse your points out in weaker individual options. The grav tank will almost always end up shot off the board turn one.
Modeling, not tactics question on cust guard assembly. Are there any guides someone can point me to to make all 5 bodies in the box as spear or sword/shield?
There are enough weapons to do all 5 as either but only instructions for 3 (because of the vexilla and shield captain).
You cant bring them in with the beacon, unless outside of your deployment zone, unless its turn 2 or later.
Basically, they are too expensive of a unit to be missing a turn of the game, so are mostly useless.
They definitely have a niche. They are very good at killing Toughness 7 stuff and putting the hurt on something with a 2+ save and toughness 4 in the shooting phase.
But that is sadly the only place they shine.
If they had just made their axe's +4 strength, or made the grenade launchers str5, or made their base invun save 4++ (so that it goes to 3++ with detachment bonus), then they would have a good usage.
Primark G wrote: Typically they never leave my deployment zone (i.e., counter assault =/= forward assault).
Then what's the point of using the Vexila? Just have them start on the table and get some potshots off.
But, if that's the case, Wardens with axes do the same job for cheaper. I guess if your meta is full of nothing but Thunderhammers and other 3 damage weapons, Allarus might be better, but with the Wardens' 6+ FNP, they only have a 58% chance of dying from a Thunder Hammer wound. Worse than an unwounded Allarus, agreed, but they're also cheaper.
Turn 3, bring in the Allarus finally. That's a third to half the game they're missing.
Why would you DS the Vexilus Praetor!? Give him the -1 to hit banner and set him up in your deployment zone before the start of the game. Move and advance for two turns together with the rest of your Custodes and then use the Vexila Telleport Homer to DS your Allarus right next to him. This gives them a 18"+4W6" threat range and a very good chance for a turn 2 charge.
This is the only viable way to play Allarus. Nothing really changed for them with the FAQ. You just have to walk your Vexilus Praetor across the board instead of DS him in the first turn (which was already hard to do against lots of armies).
Primark G wrote: Typically they never leave my deployment zone (i.e., counter assault =/= forward assault).
Thats a very expensive unit to have sit in your deployment zone all game. Thats a very...odd strategy considering out of every army in the game, custodes are not an army that needs a dedicated counter assault unit.
Primark G wrote: Typically they never leave my deployment zone (i.e., counter assault =/= forward assault).
Thats a very expensive unit to have sit in your deployment zone all game. Thats a very...odd strategy considering out of every army in the game, custodes are not an army that needs a dedicated counter assault unit.
He plays against mostly assault armies. his opponents come to him which is how he can make it work.
It's pretty garbage for the rest of the world who regularly face shooting armies.
Primark G wrote: Typically they never leave my deployment zone (i.e., counter assault =/= forward assault).
Thats a very expensive unit to have sit in your deployment zone all game. Thats a very...odd strategy considering out of every army in the game, custodes are not an army that needs a dedicated counter assault unit.
He plays against mostly assault armies. his opponents come to him which is how he can make it work.
It's pretty garbage for the rest of the world who regularly face shooting armies.
Ah that makes more sense, guess its another thing he forgot to mention when making statements. Couldnt imagine doing that in the current tournament meta.
I play against a lot of armies that have some melee units but by no means are most of my games versus assault armies as I’ve corrected you before ordana. This includes the following armies that you see in a competitive meta:
Blood Angels
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Raven Guard
Tyranids
I played a 1500 game against World Eaters today. Mission was Front-Line Warfare from Chapter Approved
My list was:
Jetbike Captain w/Auric Aquilis and Superior Creation (Used Victor of the Blood Games on him. Dude's an absolute tank)
Jetbike Captain
4 Guards
4 Guards
4 Guards
3 Bikes
3 Bikes
His list was:
Dark Apostle
Chaos Lord (Warlord)
9 Berzerkers w/Rhino
9 Berzerkers w/Rhino
5 man Marine Squad
Defiler
Bloodthirser
20 Bloodletters
Skullcannon
It was fun playing melee army vs melee army. I'm used to playing Guard, Eldar and Tau so it was nice playing against an agressive army for a change
I went second and he conceded by the end of the third battle round
So, Allarus do marginally better against Rhinos and the like, but Custodian come ahead against MEQs and TEQs.
Custodians also have 30 wounds as compared to 24, have a bigger footprint, and can pop a Stratagem for +1 to wound with their spears.
Plus the regular Custodes require less actual investment, which is important. Having a single meatshield with a Storm Shield is nice as well, but you can just do 4 man squads and be done with it. That means those silly knives can be bought as well, which adds a lot to the math for melee as well.
I used BattleScribe. The main problem with your mathammer is it is in a vacuum. For example no one would run 10 Guardians except mebbe for narrative play. Are you casual?
Yeah, even I was skeptical of the Allarus Terminators, but they are quickly turning into my powerhouse unit.
I usually drop them in 2nd turn using the stratagem on an Allarus Vexilla bearer - allowing you to deploy up to 3" from an enemy this way is fantastic for easy charges, and and fitting one 40mm base into a rediculously small spot for the stratagem is hilarious. Their axes means anything T4 is wounded on a 2+ and D3 damage is good for 2W elite infantry.
I must admit, even their Grenade launchers are effective - S4 is enough to wound the vast majority of infantry on either a 3+ or 4+ which isn't the best, but - 3AP is great for forcing failed armour saves.
A seriously good unit that is criminally underrated to the fast boy praetors...
Primark G wrote: I have won two tournaments and a league with them.
Two local RTT tournaments and a local league.
So casual meta.
I own some Terminators, like the Terminators and understand that they are not as competitive as bikes. But Terminators are cool, which is why I made ten Fulmentarii for my HH UM.
Primark G wrote: I have won two tournaments and a league with them.
Two local RTT tournaments and a local league.
So casual meta.
I own some Terminators, like the Terminators and understand that they are not as competitive as bikes. But Terminators are cool, which is why I made ten Fulmentarii for my HH UM.
Anyone can claim they've won every local tournament ever put on and there's totes 100 tournaments a day. But, really, pics or it didn't happen.
Primark G wrote: I have won two tournaments and a league with them.
Two local RTT tournaments and a local league.
So casual meta.
I own some Terminators, like the Terminators and understand that they are not as competitive as bikes. But Terminators are cool, which is why I made ten Fulmentarii for my HH UM.
This thread is basically all about how great are jetbikes and the only units you should take - that’s why there’s not much tactical discussion.
Primark G wrote: I have won two tournaments and a league with them.
Two local RTT tournaments and a local league.
So casual meta.
I own some Terminators, like the Terminators and understand that they are not as competitive as bikes. But Terminators are cool, which is why I made ten Fulmentarii for my HH UM.
This thread is basically all about how great are jetbikes and the only units you should take - that’s why there’s not much tactical discussion.
The issue is, even in a non-competitive setting, Terminators aren't filling much of a purpose I can't just get elsewhere.
I mean people aren't hating much else in the Codex so...
Primark G wrote: I have won two tournaments and a league with them.
Well, your flag indicates US.
So, you're one of the 7 other people in the ITC who has 3 logged events as Custodes?
Or one of the 15 with two?
Heck, even with two you'd be one of the two people (including myself, score not yet showing) with two tournament wins out of their 4 total recorded with them while having over 100 points.
Played a game today with my bike custodes, wanted to see how my GK worked as a psychic shield. Of course my opponent ended up playing Tau, so...
My list:
1x Shield captain - 3++ and victor of the blood games
3x 5-man praetors (4 salvo launchers)
1x Vexilla (magnfica)
Voldus
1x 5-man strike squad
He had about 6 5-man firewarrior squads, 3 pathfinder squads, 3 broadsides, a riptide, 2 ghostkeels, a stealth squad and 3 commander suits (don't think he was up on his FAQs). 4 squads of drones too.
Outrider (custodes) and a patrol (GK). Played a progressive scoring chapter approved mission with 3 objectives in the center, frontline assault deployment. I went first, wiped out most of his pathfinders and firewarriors, no charges. One of my squads was out of vexilla range, so he wiped that one with his entire army T1 (re-roll all hits warlord trait), as well as 2 bikes from another squad. Got some charges T2, killed the ghostkeels and a commander suit. Next turn he shot some more stuff, I made some more charges and killed another commander suit. Turn 4 my last bike got smoked on overwatch and my commander got wiped. Ironically the game was won by my GK allies; Voldus gated around the table and survived until the game ended (and he had achieved zero objectives to my 6 points, plus first blood and warlord). Overall I rolled pretty terribly on my saves (I think I made 3 4++ the entire game, and my captain made one 3++), and the multi-damage weapons hurt. My target priority wasn't the greatest either. That said, looking afterwards I think he messed up a few of his rules and I couldn't really call him on it since I didn't know them at the time.
A couple takeaways (nothing that we didn't already know though):
The vexilla magnifica is worth it. I give mine a storm shield and he is an extremely durable objective holder once the bikes outrun him.
Tau overwatch is brutal. I lost entirely too many bikes to it, including the previously mentioned vexilla when he charged a commander with fusion guns. In hindsight I actually wondered if I should have just sat on objectives and daisy-chained to the vexilla.
With the beta rules "rule of 3", my previous statements on this forum regarding normal bikes vs shield captains are basically moot: you can't MSU with nromal bikes anymore. Fortunately I can get another shield captain in the list by dropping the salvo launchers and upgrading a normal biker. The ideal bike list would have 3 captains and 3 bike squads.
My allies cost 3 bikes (297 pts). If I had 3 more bikes I would have tabled my opponent.
Sounds like my last battle, except vs IG and I lost by tabling on turn 6. Miles ahead on objectives but Draigo failed 4 2+ invulns and got battlecannoned.
Im noticing a bit of a pattern. Custodes have nothing to deal with those hard shooty targets at range and so all your nasty units are dead by turn 2. T6 and a 4++ isnt quite tough enough. At codex release I was worried about mortal wounds but the meta has shifted heavily since then. I dont wanna have to ally in some big guns to do the heavy lifting, but its looking inevitable.
Alrighty, looking for some opinion. Planning for an upcoming 1000 pt team tourney. My teammate is playing Armored Guard. 3 Lemans, a Tank Commander, etc. The two lists I am down to are as follows:
For 1k, I would actually go with all bikes, their hurricane bolters provide anti-infantry firepower the tanks don’t. While the grav tank is nice, it doesn’t give you a lot the AM tanks don’t and having an extra unit to tie up big units is good. Plus, your bikes will all be obsec and his leman russes will be too if he takes a spearhead.
Edit: And I'm not just saying this as part of team bike, it's just that everything you want to use the infantry for your ally can do better and cheaper with guardsmen. Bikes bring speed and melee, 2 things AM does not.
So couple of questions from the noob:
1. What do you think of the lists?
2. Are IG basically mandatory as CP batteries for Custodes? (Not complaining, gives me an excuse to field my renegade guard)
3. Spears or SS? Everyone keeps saying Spears are better but I'd think having a 3++ for an objective holding unit would be pretty good.
4. Hurricane bolters or Salvo? Salvo seemed like the bad choice because it's basically an expensive melta with an anti-air option but the lack of any high strength, high AP, high damage weapons in this army makes it more appealing than it would be in say; C:CSM.
5. Are Misericordia an auto-include or just something extra if you have the points?
6. Any other advice or tips for this army?
So couple of questions from the noob:
1. What do you think of the lists?
2. Are IG basically mandatory as CP batteries for Custodes? (Not complaining, gives me an excuse to field my renegade guard)
3. Spears or SS? Everyone keeps saying Spears are better but I'd think having a 3++ for an objective holding unit would be pretty good.
4. Hurricane bolters or Salvo? Salvo seemed like the bad choice because it's basically an expensive melta with an anti-air option but the lack of any high strength, high AP, high damage weapons in this army makes it more appealing than it would be in say; C:CSM.
5. Are Misericordia an auto-include or just something extra if you have the points?
6. Any other advice or tips for this army?
Cheers.
1. I like the 1k list, but there's a bit too much fat in the 2k one. Somewhere in the 40's (pg. numbers) I think, we did multiple pages of heavy math that revealed except for a few edge cases the bikes always outperform the Allarus. Now, the rule of 3 stops you from taking more units of bikes, but you could always put more bikes in each unit (they can go up to 10). That said, I'd ditch the Allarus in favor of an Achillus-Dreadnought or a Caladius Grav-Tank, both of which would help you plug your range anti-armor hole rather than add on yet more melee.
The Vexila is great. I usually recommend putting him in regular armor though so he can take a Castellan Axe, which is just so much better than being stuck with a Misericordia only.
2. IG specifically aren't, but some ally seems to be. In my experience, Adeptus Mechanicus makes a stellar ally who contributes CP and anti-tank shooting. Some people also use Blood Angels though I don't know if the beta rules would change that (Cephalobeard would).
3. I personally S+B everyone up when I use them, but the major point folks level against that is it's too pricey. 3 S+B Guardians is like 177 points. That's a lot to just leave on an objective with only pistol shooting. Most consensus is that 1 S+B and 2 Spears is the optimal balance and gives flexibility.
4. Hurricanes all the way. Due to the volume of fire Salvo's are only a marginal damage improvement over Hurricanes even against their intended vehicle targets. Hurricanes are better for basically everything else. Don't forget the bikes can Fly and have S6 re-rolling to Wound on the charge too. Any vehicle they can get their hands on is going on the pain train.
5. Something you fill in using extra points.
6. Victor of the Blood games is phenomenal and you can use it multiple times. Don't be afraid to put it on multiple Characters. For Warlord traits, we usually take Superior Creation or Radiant Mantle unless you're fighting Thousand Sons or something like that.
If you are going to run IG work some mortars in the list.
Allarus do just fine and have the best strategems in general.
2. Are IG basically mandatory as CP batteries for Custodes? (Not complaining, gives me an excuse to field my renegade guard)
Not really. Admech is a solid choice since it can provide long range tank busting fire power. I am doing okay with SM.
3. Spears or SS? Everyone keeps saying Spears are better but I'd think having a 3++ for an objective holding unit would be pretty good.
I think spears are way better in melee.
4. Hurricane bolters or Salvo? Salvo seemed like the bad choice because it's basically an expensive melta with an anti-air option but the lack of any high strength, high AP, high damage weapons in this army makes it more appealing than it would be in say; C:CSM.
I would just go HB. Get some heavy weapons via your ally.
5. Are Misericordia an auto-include or just something extra if you have the points?
1. So the Custodes Terminators are just as bad as everyone else's? Even to just bring in some flexibility with deepstriking units?
@Primark Are mortars really that necessary with all of them bolters flying about?
3. I didn't know you could mix the unit loadouts.
4. Good point, bolters all the way it is!
6. @JNA Are they really that bad? I thought the aura would be quite good on 10 man squads. Would a Company Commander be better than a Commissar?
@Audustum Seems expensive at 2CP a pop...
At 2k I run an allied BA batallion and a Guard batallion with my Custodes (still have like 1400 points of Custodes) and yeah the CP batteries are glorious (though if we’re being honest, those BA are super CP hungry)
"So the Custodes Terminators are just as bad as everyone else's? Even to just bring in some flexibility with deepstriking units?"
They are great. Give them a try and see for yourself.
"@Primark Are mortars really that necessary with all of them bolters flying about? "
You are pretty much just using them for quasi board control and CP manipulation. Every game I see with IG as ally they are all dead by T3-T4... a cagey opponent will not spend much CP until those CP buffing HQ are nuked.
Primark G wrote: a cagey opponent will not spend much CP until those CP buffing HQ are nuked.
Thats actually a good thing I reckon. Many hard hitting armies dump the majority of their CP in turns 1 and 2, so if you delay that at all you're making them play your game instead of theirs.
Primark G wrote: a cagey opponent will not spend much CP until those CP buffing HQ are nuked.
Thats actually a good thing I reckon. Many hard hitting armies dump the majority of their CP in turns 1 and 2, so if you delay that at all you're making them play your game instead of theirs.
Some armies like daemons need to drop a lot of CP right at the beginning... even with the new FAQ they will quickly shred all the guard units.
Primark G wrote: a cagey opponent will not spend much CP until those CP buffing HQ are nuked.
Thats actually a good thing I reckon. Many hard hitting armies dump the majority of their CP in turns 1 and 2, so if you delay that at all you're making them play your game instead of theirs.
Some armies like daemons need to drop a lot of CP right at the beginning... even with the new FAQ they will quickly shred all the guard units.
Most people in the thread have problems actually, not just me.
So couple of questions from the noob:
1. What do you think of the lists?
2. Are IG basically mandatory as CP batteries for Custodes? (Not complaining, gives me an excuse to field my renegade guard)
3. Spears or SS? Everyone keeps saying Spears are better but I'd think having a 3++ for an objective holding unit would be pretty good.
4. Hurricane bolters or Salvo? Salvo seemed like the bad choice because it's basically an expensive melta with an anti-air option but the lack of any high strength, high AP, high damage weapons in this army makes it more appealing than it would be in say; C:CSM.
5. Are Misericordia an auto-include or just something extra if you have the points?
6. Any other advice or tips for this army?
Cheers.
1. I personally like a Battalion of Custodes to have the Custodian Guard sit on objectives while my other units do the heavy lifting but since you have AM to do that job, I say those lists are fine.
2. Some people like to have allies for Custodes for their ranged anti-armor and more CP and while I get the reason why, I wouldn't say it's mandatory to find success with them. I play a pure Custodes army with a little bit of everything they have to offer and I've had victories and great games against different armies (DA, DG, post codex Necrons, etc.). Just need to play smartly, go all in on threat saturation, and play to the army's strengths.
3. At least 1 or 2 SB+SS in each Custodian Guard squad and the rest Spears depending on squad size, I run 1 SB+SS and 2 Spears in each of my Guard squads.
4. Hurricane bolters generally. If you really want some ranged anti-armor, I'd put them on the Shield Captains since even if you move with them, you still hit on 3's rerolling 1's. I've been experimenting with a Dawneagle SC with a Salvo Launcher, Auric Aquilis, Emperor's Companion WL trait, and giving him Victor of the Blood Games (to reroll any 2's to hit and make him pretty damn survivable to make up for not taking the 5+++ WL trait) to make him the ultimate solo tank hunter that rerolls damn near everything he does. Pretty solid success so far!
5. The latter, they're purely there to fill in leftover points. Nice to have, but just remember to swing with them!
6. Take advantage of our great stratagems! With 8 CP from a Battalion, we have room to play around with our strats more than before. Taking a second relic to give another SC a 3++ is never a bad choice. Tanglefoot Grenades and Concussion Grenades have proven to be very useful in the games I've played. Victor of the Blood Games is also excellent and damn near pays for itself. From Golden Light They Come is fun and can contribute to the threat saturation to make picking targets for the opponent difficult, especially when you deep strike in a Contemptor Achillus with Allarus and Allarus Vexilus Praetor with the Vexilla Magnifica and you have jetbikes about to run down your opponent's gunline at the same time. Deploy your jetbikes out of LOS in case you don't go first so they're protected from as much shooting as possible since they're obvious targets to focus down on first. With their quick movement and Fly, they'll have little trouble getting to where they need to be.
1. So the Custodes Terminators are just as bad as everyone else's? Even to just bring in some flexibility with deepstriking units?
@Primark Are mortars really that necessary with all of them bolters flying about?
3. I didn't know you could mix the unit loadouts.
4. Good point, bolters all the way it is!
6. @JNA Are they really that bad? I thought the aura would be quite good on 10 man squads. Would a Company Commander be better than a Commissar?
@Audustum Seems expensive at 2CP a pop...
1. Basically, yes. The Terminators are better than most armies' Terminators, but they're the same cost as bikes and overall extremely inferior by comparison. Primark has some success with them, but we're not sure how competitive his meta is and he fights mostly CQC armies so he drops them right around his deployment zone (basically, a fairly limited circumstance of use).
3. Yep! And thank goodness too.
6. So it is. I'm gonna be totally blunt about that. The way you evaluate the cost is this: Command Re-Roll is 1CP per use. If that character rolls 2 dice per match then you made your investment back. If the character rolls more than 2 you just profited in CP. So put it on people you expect to be making armor/invulnerable/to-hit/to-wound rolls.
You are pretty much just using them for quasi board control and CP manipulation. Every game I see with IG as ally they are all dead by T3-T4... a cagey opponent will not spend much CP until those CP buffing HQ are nuked.
I think this man lives in some sort of parallel universe. So if you are not living in the same one, please consider taking his advice with a pound of salt.
From my experience:
1. IG allies in Custodes army live forever. Nobody wants to spare firepower on that bunch of puny, cheap, sitting-in-the-cover-or-behind-a-LOS-block guys when they have a bunch of Custodes ready to wreck their faces.
2. If anyone is stupid enough to not use necessary stratagems just do deny the opponent a possibility (!) of getting 1 CP (at 5+, don't forget!) per stratagem (not per CP spent) then he is his worst enemy himself. I have yet to see the man.
And yes, Allaruses are almost useless. I have them because I like them but will never ever take them to the competitive event.
Victor of the blood games is not as expensive if you have an allied guard warlord with grand strategist. You pay the CP when you deploy the unit so you can roll to see if you get the CP back provided you have deployed your guard warlord first.
6. @JNA Are they really that bad? I thought the aura would be quite good on 10 man squads. Would a Company Commander be better than a Commissar?
@Audustum Seems expensive at 2CP a pop...
1. Basically, yes. The Terminators are better than most armies' Terminators, but they're the same cost as bikes and overall extremely inferior by comparison. Primark has some success with them, but we're not sure how competitive his meta is and he fights mostly CQC armies so he drops them right around his deployment zone (basically, a fairly limited circumstance of use).
Primark claims he has success with them, but then again he claims a lot of things without any reasoning or math.
I have dropped my allarus to a unit of 3, purely to drop in as the rest of my army hits enemy lines so they can pop concussion grenades on 3 units. Mostly as a hard counter to tau greater good bunkers. There is literally no reason to take any more than that, because they are expensive, bikes are better, and with beta theyre not hitting early enough to make a difference.
Above is my Post-FAQ list. Building all of the models up now. Quite excited to test it out. Just got all the custom bases in, going to be testing it over the following weekends, then taking it to an RTT in the beginning of June. Feeling quite good, and the Devs will allow me to counter other Custodes bikes quite easily.
I've now got Wardens and a Praetor in a Land Raider rather than the Terminators, dropped the salvos for bolters and grabbed some Lascannons on the Infantry Squads. A bit more punch in exchange for utility.
JNAProductions wrote: Consider replacing the Land Raider with the DS Stratagem. 3 CP for two units, but saves you 400 points.
Couple of questions on that:
1. Is deep striking so good? The charging isn't so reliable after deepstrike and without a transport there's nothing to soak up overwatch.
2. If I were to replace the Landraider, what with?
It's better, IMO, than a Land Raider. Although, [s] much as I hate to say it [/sarcasm], Allarus actually might do you okay here. I didn't think you'd pop up a Land Raider, and while the Allarus are a touch more expensive, it saves you 2 CP (enough for Victor of the Blood Games on someone) if you only need to Deep Strike one unit, rather than two.
As for what to replace it with... Hard to go wrong with a few extra bikes. Maybe a Dreadnought? Or, toss on a few min Squads of Custodian Guard and make it a Battalion? Would probably require some drops elsewhere, though.
Above is my Post-FAQ list. Building all of the models up now. Quite excited to test it out. Just got all the custom bases in, going to be testing it over the following weekends, then taking it to an RTT in the beginning of June. Feeling quite good, and the Devs will allow me to counter other Custodes bikes quite easily.
6. @JNA Are they really that bad? I thought the aura would be quite good on 10 man squads. Would a Company Commander be better than a Commissar?
@Audustum Seems expensive at 2CP a pop...
1. Basically, yes. The Terminators are better than most armies' Terminators, but they're the same cost as bikes and overall extremely inferior by comparison. Primark has some success with them, but we're not sure how competitive his meta is and he fights mostly CQC armies so he drops them right around his deployment zone (basically, a fairly limited circumstance of use).
Primark claims he has success with them, but then again he claims a lot of things without any reasoning or math.
I have dropped my allarus to a unit of 3, purely to drop in as the rest of my army hits enemy lines so they can pop concussion grenades on 3 units. Mostly as a hard counter to tau greater good bunkers. There is literally no reason to take any more than that, because they are expensive, bikes are better, and with beta theyre not hitting early enough to make a difference.
if concussion nades worked on more than just infantry, there'd definitely be a place for them I think, but it's just too unlikely that you'll be able to use them on the units you want to turn overwatch off for as they won't be infantry. It's a pity.
Should every player who uses Custodes always spend the CP for VofBG every game?
"if concussion nades worked on more than just infantry, there'd definitely be a place for them I think, but it's just too unlikely that you'll be able to use them on the units you want to turn overwatch off for as they won't be infantry. It's a pity."
I disagree as more than not you'll be charging infantry - it is not always the case for sure though.
6. @JNA Are they really that bad? I thought the aura would be quite good on 10 man squads. Would a Company Commander be better than a Commissar?
@Audustum Seems expensive at 2CP a pop...
1. Basically, yes. The Terminators are better than most armies' Terminators, but they're the same cost as bikes and overall extremely inferior by comparison. Primark has some success with them, but we're not sure how competitive his meta is and he fights mostly CQC armies so he drops them right around his deployment zone (basically, a fairly limited circumstance of use).
Primark claims he has success with them, but then again he claims a lot of things without any reasoning or math.
I have dropped my allarus to a unit of 3, purely to drop in as the rest of my army hits enemy lines so they can pop concussion grenades on 3 units. Mostly as a hard counter to tau greater good bunkers. There is literally no reason to take any more than that, because they are expensive, bikes are better, and with beta theyre not hitting early enough to make a difference.
if concussion nades worked on more than just infantry, there'd definitely be a place for them I think, but it's just too unlikely that you'll be able to use them on the units you want to turn overwatch off for as they won't be infantry. It's a pity.
Thats a valid point, especially vs tau as battlesuits arent infantry. However, what I meant was that youd use the allarus to concuss something your bikes are about to hit. And remember, you dont have to hit the units yourr charging, instead hit the surrounding firewarriors to prevent their linked overwatch and drastically reduce the incoming fire. Can be key vs t'au sept.
RogueApiary wrote: Anyone try out any of the FW toys yet? Am looking really hard at that grav battle tank or the transport tank.
They're all experimental rules though aren't they? No point splashing out on a £100+ model before their full rules are released and/or something better gets released with it in the new Imperial Armour.
RogueApiary wrote: Anyone try out any of the FW toys yet? Am looking really hard at that grav battle tank or the transport tank.
They're all experimental rules though aren't they? No point splashing out on a £100+ model before their full rules are released and/or something better gets released with it in the new Imperial Armour.
That's the crux, yeah. I was going to suggest the giant, flying, troop transport Forgeworld has just for the Custodes if you want to change the Landraider. You run that very risk with beta rules though.
Primark G wrote: You are my straight man today. You might have more success if you ever learn how to politely request.
Then please explain, to everyone in the thread, what makes the Blood Games Strategem situational.
I used to skip out when I was running my all bike gimmick list. 5 CPs were just too few to spend 2 at the start. But with beefed up CPs, there's never a reason NOT to take it.
In most cases Victor of the Blood Games is a good buy, but consider that you’ll really only be using the re-roll for saves when figuring out how much you’ll use it. You already re-roll hits (WS/BS 2+ re-rolling 1s) and a bike re-rolls wounds on the charge. So for instance, if you shield him behind other units the whole game and then charge guardsmen, you might not get the benefit out of those re-rolls. In a game last night against space wolves/IG I used my bike shield-captain’s re-roll once in 6 turns...because he just never got targeted (not even when he charged Bjorn with another bike squad). Most of the time though you’ll at least break even, and if you’re going to duel other melee units VOTBG is a must-take.
Primark G wrote: My example was a 500 point patrol mission. Shield-Captain on a bike is close to half your points.
But he isn't, and you might as well ensure the enemy is dead. And at that point level with Hurricane Bolters being rocked I don't think it's a hard choice.
Eihnlazer wrote: Lets just agree that biker captains are probably the best model in the game atm. If you could build an army of nothing but them you probably would.
Completely unfluffy, but meh.
They're... not.
They're good, because of the fact that they're t6 and fast, but they're far from the best model in the game. This argument is like the Tau boogeyman from 7th. People thought they were better than they were.
Not only that, but an army of nothing but Captains would be hilariously ineffective against any army with chaff to throw at it.
I agree, the rerolling 1's, 7 wounds, and extra attack for SCs have been worth it in games I have played.
Most of my lists start with:
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
3-5 Vertus Praetors
It never steers me wrong, the jetbikes are gross and the best relic (imo) in the codex is biker only.
Question for any willing to offer their input. I am playing the 10 bike list for an upcoming 1000 pt event. Would you run Superior Creation or Radiant Mantle?
My thought is that Radiant Mantle may have an edge in this case because my goal is to take care of hordes/infantry blobs.
Additionally, my teammate is bringing Guard and will have 4 Leman Russ, do you think a Salvo Launcher on the SC is even worth the points, or should I just load another squad up with misericordia?
KampfKrote wrote: I agree, the rerolling 1's, 7 wounds, and extra attack for SCs have been worth it in games I have played.
Most of my lists start with:
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
3-5 Vertus Praetors
It never steers me wrong, the jetbikes are gross and the best relic (imo) in the codex is biker only.
Question for any willing to offer their input. I am playing the 10 bike list for an upcoming 1000 pt event. Would you run Superior Creation or Radiant Mantle?
My thought is that Radiant Mantle may have an edge in this case because my goal is to take care of hordes/infantry blobs.
Additionally, my teammate is bringing Guard and will have 4 Leman Russ, do you think a Salvo Launcher on the SC is even worth the points, or should I just load another squad up with misericordia?
You can't take 3 units of bikes at 1k tournaments.
KampfKrote wrote: I agree, the rerolling 1's, 7 wounds, and extra attack for SCs have been worth it in games I have played.
Most of my lists start with:
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
3-5 Vertus Praetors
It never steers me wrong, the jetbikes are gross and the best relic (imo) in the codex is biker only.
Question for any willing to offer their input. I am playing the 10 bike list for an upcoming 1000 pt event. Would you run Superior Creation or Radiant Mantle?
My thought is that Radiant Mantle may have an edge in this case because my goal is to take care of hordes/infantry blobs.
Additionally, my teammate is bringing Guard and will have 4 Leman Russ, do you think a Salvo Launcher on the SC is even worth the points, or should I just load another squad up with misericordia?
You can't take 3 units of bikes at 1k tournaments.
Sure you can. 3 Units of Bikes and 1 Captain is only 970.
That entirely depends on the event. Giving that he said "teammate" im willing to bet this is a doubles event, which is two 1k lists combined for a normal 2k game.
Cephalobeard wrote: That entirely depends on the event. Giving that he said "teammate" im willing to bet this is a doubles event, which is two 1k lists combined for a normal 2k game.
I'm going to a doubles tournament in a month and they're ruling that each 1k half is it's own army for all rules including unit cap.
But you're right; it is an event by event basis. You should check the events pack to make sure.
