I will be playing in a tournament where every datasheet can only be taken once except for troops. No forge world is allowed. And you have to take a battalion. This is my current list
termi captain
bike captain
3x3 guard
1 vexilla magnifica
1x9 bikes 7 with bolter 2 with salvo launcher
Do you think a 9 man biker unit is good? Or is it just to big and impractical and not as good as a smaller one? I don't see any other reason for taking Allarus.
I think I will teleport the bikes. So I am not sure if I need the Vexilla.
nordsturmking wrote: I will be playing in a tournament where every datasheet can only be taken once except for troops. No forge world is allowed. And you have to take a battalion. This is my current list
termi captain
bike captain
3x3 guard
1 vexilla magnifica
1x9 bikes 7 with bolter 2 with salvo launcher
Do you think a 9 man biker unit is good? Or is it just to big and impractical and not as good as a smaller one? I don't see any other reason for taking Allarus.
I think I will teleport the bikes. So I am not sure if I need the Vexilla.
What do you think?
I'd ditch the salvos. The hurricanes do about as good even against vehicles (difference is fairly negligible in my opinion) if in rapid fire range. The amount of bikes you're taking is perfect if you want to just slam an important target or two in melee and take it out ASAP.
I'd keep the Vexilla and NOT deep strike the Bikes. Put them under the Magnifica so they get -1 to be hit and let them make good use of those Hurricane Bolters while they get in range for a charge. You'll cause a lot more damage without taking much losses. Think of them as a hybrid melee/shooting unit. Just try not to let something big and scary (like Mortarion or a full squad of Genestealers) charge them first. Don't forget you can have them do an interrupt charge to save another unit that was charged by an enemy (and they get to fight first!).
If you tell me which type of detachment you want and can use I’ll design a list for you and max out jetbikes. You’re limited to just one of every unit except for troops?
I’ve already dedicated to playing bikes in this event, so I made it work. Running 7 bikes, and then the unit of Guard with a Storm Shield (I really like having one of these in any unit). The misericordia are just eating up the extra points, though I am going to talk with my teammate and see what he thinks about Storm shield + misericordia on bikes vs 4th Guard.
As far as Superior Creation vs Radiant Mantle, is everyone still split on that or is one clearly better than the other?
I'd always run the normal Vexilla after the deepstrike changes. Your not deepstriking him anyway and that way you can bring a decent weapon in the axe.
Especially in smaller points where you want all your tiny amount of models to carry their weight.
Also I assume the relic is a missclick and you wanted to get the relic bike.
On Superior Creation vs Radiant Mantle.
I would normally go for Superior Creation, I think the math also comes out in its favor by a tiny bit.
However Radiant Mantle can be great if your facing lots of plasma to 'discourage' overcharges. I would consider it if you know the meta or when you change your warlord during a game through 'Shoulder the Mantle'.
I’d rather not have to burn a cp to DS the Vexilla and the weapon isn’t a big deal since your bikes will be doing the work for your army. You can bring him in somewhere strategic where the -1 to hit will help you up the battlefield, I don’t see it doing much for you back in your DZ.
Primark G wrote: I’d rather not have to burn a cp to DS the Vexilla and the weapon isn’t a big deal since your bikes will be doing the work for your army. You can bring him in somewhere strategic where the -1 to hit will help you up the battlefield, I don’t see it doing much for you back in your DZ.
Primark G wrote: So the bikes benefit from the -1 to hit outside of their deployment zone.
If he moves + Advances you can usually stay in range for a turn or two outside the deployment zone. Eventually you just have to let your babies spread their wings and fly.
Bringing up something touched on before: Land Raider Vs Coronus transport, which is better?
Land Raider: - Better Strength (not really important)
- Better Attacks (again, see above)
- Better Armour Save
- PotMS - Smoke Launchers
- Better shooting vs big targets
Coronus Transport: - 30pts cheaper
- +1 transport capacity
- Better movement
- More wounds
- 6++ save
- -1 to hit for CC units that charge it
- Able to leave combat and shoot
- Better shooting vs MEQ/GEQ (?)
Looking at it now, the FW transport isn't really better than the Land Raider. The Landraider is better against or is equal in toughness for all AP up to -4 and has much better shooting. The only reason I'd take the Grav-carrier is if you knew you were going up against a CQC heavy army (for the -1 to hit and the ability to not get trapped in CC)
It's that much more important that it isn't a contest though.
Mmmm... That would very much depend on whether your opponent has any CC units (or has CC units that they aren't using to tie up the bikes), you could well face an IG/SM tank army where those extra lascannons would come in handy.
Another question, this time on relics:
What's the best secondary relic to take? Grab another 3++ for a second Shield Captain or grab the relic that lets you fight again on a 4+ and stick him in the center of 3xbike squads?
Primark G wrote: I’d rather not have to burn a cp to DS the Vexilla and the weapon isn’t a big deal since your bikes will be doing the work for your army. You can bring him in somewhere strategic where the -1 to hit will help you up the battlefield, I don’t see it doing much for you back in your DZ.
You don't DS. thats the whole point.
You can't DS the Vexilla outside your deployment zone until turn 2. That is the turn your bikes are charging and no longer need the -1 to hit.
You want the -1 to hit for the first 1or2 shooting phases which means you need to start on the table and run + advance up . By conga lining the bikes back a bit you will be in range with your bikes after moving even if you roll bad on advancing.
Go for another 3++. A single melee attack from a bike isn’t that good, and while another 12 hurricane shots can be nice it’s not as nice as having TWO bike captains with a 3++. That extra invul save allows them to survive against dedicated melee units, and makes them more durable point for point than just taking normal bikes.
It's that much more important that it isn't a contest though.
Mmmm... That would very much depend on whether your opponent has any CC units (or has CC units that they aren't using to tie up the bikes), you could well face an IG/SM tank army where those extra lascannons would come in handy.
Another question, this time on relics:
What's the best secondary relic to take? Grab another 3++ for a second Shield Captain or grab the relic that lets you fight again on a 4+ and stick him in the center of 3xbike squads?
The bikers and Custodians are gonna engage with those most likely though. Having Fly allows you to get in close if you wanna drop off cargo and then not be stuck in a rut. Otherwise, and I really don't want to say it, Lascannons can be allied in for cheap if that's what you really want. If you make the Land Raider do everything, it's going to suck at everything.
You can't put it anywhere useful until turn 2-3, and then it's useless because most armies are now in range to melee, where Custodes should be.
It's only an option on the most pedantic way possible, in that yes you certainly have the OPTION of putting it somewhere, much like you have the option of never moving, but that doesn't ewuate with good decisions.
Vexilla Praetors on bikes, bikes with storm shields, transports that don't cost 400pts, Allarus being a bit cheaper/allowed to take storm shields, FW getting their act together and releasing the Custodes rules, etc. There's a lot of stuff that could turn Custodes from good to top tier.
... what? You'd literally have it turn one and turn two if you just kept the damn thing on the table.
I've being giving you as much credit as possible, but you cannot possibly be serious at these series of arguments. It's just nonsense and I can't believe you genuinely don't see that, despite literally being told and shown over and over.
If it's on the table you have it turn one, turn two, and probably even turn 3. You deploy it further up, move and advance, it has a long enough radius and you can just Daisy chain bikes with zero issues.
If you don't sieze it and/or go second, you gain no benefit, decide to deploy it in your own deployment zone, or take another round of shooting.
It's just worse.
They're no nuance, there's nothing we "don't see", there's no tactical madman, it's literally just worse. It's not special. It's not smart. It's stupid.
I don’t play all jetbikes like you do and I never would first because I do not think it is the most competitive build, second because of my success with my list and third if we look at the best list at Adepticon it was not maxing dawneagles. IMO you and some others think all dawneagke is the best and are totally closed to anything else. I have beat dawneagle spam with my current list and Nidz. Sure dawnegos are easy mode for sure though.
Alright. You genuinely either don't get it or are refusing to get it. Either way, way, this is going nowhere. I would advise, for the second time in this thread, we all cease this discussion and move on.
This is the Tactics subforum, and Bikes were proven SEVERAL times to be super effective. You're choosing to be contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian at this point. Why?
Even if you don’t run bikes, it still makes more sense to start the vexila on the table. It moves at the same speed as your infantry, and if you deepstrike stuff in the implication is that the deepstrikers will be assaulting and not in need of the -1. But if you really wanted that extra protection, why not just take another vexilla? It’s basically the same points as it’s version of a shield captain (allarus/normal) with 1 less wound/attack, and in the non-allarus version you can still take whatever melee weapon you want.
What do you guys think about taking Victor of the Blood Games more than once? Worth it without Grand Strategist?
Also, what about Praetorian Plate on a vexilla praetor? Turn 1 set up a charge with a bike captain and some other bikes, turn 2 charge. During enemy's fight phase, teleport the vexilla next to the enemy. Turn 3 use the vexilla teleport homer and drop a bunch of Allarus terminators into combat. It's unfortunate how many turns this takes, plus it takes 3 CP and a relic. It works a lot better if your opponent charges your captain turn 1 or if you pull off a first turn charge.
Victor is based on how many CP you have. I like to plot out how many CP I expect to use in a game (then add a few extra just in case) and if I have points left over Victor is an instant buy.
If you think you'll use cp to reroll saves for your captain at least twice in the game, its work buying.
Meatgrinder wrote: Victor is based on how many CP you have. I like to plot out how many CP I expect to use in a game (then add a few extra just in case) and if I have points left over Victor is an instant buy.
If you think you'll use cp to reroll saves for your captain at least twice in the game, its work buying.
About the same here. Get a rough idea of what CP I'll NEED for that match and then put Victor on Shield-Captains till I run out of spare CP or Captains.
Meatgrinder wrote: Victor is based on how many CP you have. I like to plot out how many CP I expect to use in a game (then add a few extra just in case) and if I have points left over Victor is an instant buy.
If you think you'll use cp to reroll saves for your captain at least twice in the game, its work buying.
About the same here. Get a rough idea of what CP I'll NEED for that match and then put Victor on Shield-Captains till I run out of spare CP or Captains.
Meatgrinder wrote: Victor is based on how many CP you have. I like to plot out how many CP I expect to use in a game (then add a few extra just in case) and if I have points left over Victor is an instant buy.
If you think you'll use cp to reroll saves for your captain at least twice in the game, its work buying.
About the same here. Get a rough idea of what CP I'll NEED for that match and then put Victor on Shield-Captains till I run out of spare CP or Captains.
How much spare CP do you budget?
Depends a lot on my opponent, which CP allows us to decide per match. You use Victor when you deploy the guy thankfully. My lists usually run 8-12 CP for Custodes. I tend to use Victor once or twice.
2 CP is a lot for Custodes and my current list has 8 CP so against a lot of armies I probably won't use it unless I am really counting a lot on my Warlord.
I've been giddy recently about using my R&H for the first time since 7th as a supporting force for my Custodes, so here's a list that uses one of my R&H tanks that haven't been able to field since 6th:
It's based off of that surprise Shadowsword list that made the rounds where the Shadowsword + infantry were supported by lots of fast, tough CC units. One thing I can't decide is whether to keep the Custodian infantry for the 13CP or drop them in favour of more bikes but only have 9CP.
Hmm, CP or more bikes is one of the few areas it's a wash. You have lots of objective holders so don't worry about needing the Guardians for that either.
Maybe this will help clarify it: IF you keep the Guardians, I'd drop the second Dawneagle Captain for a Vexilla Praetor with the -1 to Hit flag. He adds a lot of survivability to Guardians. If you want to keep the second Dawneagle Captain, I'd drop the Guardians and just take more bikes.
Also, I'd make the Company Commander your Warlord. Use Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquila as long as you can, then when the Company Commander dies pay 1 CP for Shoulder the Mantle and move it on to the Dawneagle Captain (he generates a Warlord trait when you do).
Played two 1k point games against 1k Sons the other day.
I ran a battalion with 2 bike captains with 3++, 3 squads of 3 guard, and a vexilla magnifica, with an aux detachment with 1 vindicare.
He ran something like 3 squads of 10 rubrics, an exalted sorceror on a disc and a daemon prince.
That winged daemon prince with his buffed S10 (diabolic strength) D3 and additional attacks on to-hit of 6 was ripping apart my custodes guard left and right, and his extra movement phase from warptime pretty much guaranteed charges whenever he needed one. And death hex... oh man, death hex. RIP shield captains.
Smite spam from everything pretty consistently downed my dudes, although I did roll a 6 to save against them a few times. Inferno boltguns are perfect against custodes, reducing their 2+ to 4+, same as their invul. Soulreaper cannons are also amazing, and the squad-level force stave hurts as well. Hurricane bolters don't do anything to rubric squads, but guardian spear shooting is decently effective.
I tabled him both games, but they were probably due to mistakes on his part and the vindicare killing his exalted sorceror pretty consistently. I downed the daemon prince in game one by throwing both shield captains at him, then shooting him with the vindicare after he killed the captains. I downed him in game two by throwing two custodes guard squads at him... 5 died and the last guard managed to finish off the prince with a 3 damage spear stab. A lone bike captain can generally take an entire rubic squad by himself in combat, but it takes a long time. A squad of 3 custodes guard can also take a full rubic squad in combat... if they make it there.
Audustum wrote: Hmm, CP or more bikes is one of the few areas it's a wash. You have lots of objective holders so don't worry about needing the Guardians for that either.
Maybe this will help clarify it: IF you keep the Guardians, I'd drop the second Dawneagle Captain for a Vexilla Praetor with the -1 to Hit flag. He adds a lot of survivability to Guardians. If you want to keep the second Dawneagle Captain, I'd drop the Guardians and just take more bikes.
If I lose the second Captain then I lose the +5CP; a Vexilla is an elite not an HQ.
Also, I'd make the Company Commander your Warlord. Use Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquila as long as you can, then when the Company Commander dies pay 1 CP for Shoulder the Mantle and move it on to the Dawneagle Captain (he generates a Warlord trait when you do).
Is the CP regeneration worth losing the 3++ AND the 5+++ on the Shield Captain? The best thing about him is that he can soak up so much damage (I took him against Tau last week for a 1000pts game: he soaked up TWO rounds of the entire Tau armies firepower before going down, that was enough time for the Guardians and the Guard to run up the board and swamp over his battlesuits).
mrhappyface wrote: Is the CP regeneration worth losing the 3++ AND the 5+++ on the Shield Captain? The best thing about him is that he can soak up so much damage (I took him against Tau last week for a 1000pts game: he soaked up TWO rounds of the entire Tau armies firepower before going down, that was enough time for the Guardians and the Guard to run up the board and swamp over his battlesuits).
Audustum wrote: Hmm, CP or more bikes is one of the few areas it's a wash. You have lots of objective holders so don't worry about needing the Guardians for that either.
Maybe this will help clarify it: IF you keep the Guardians, I'd drop the second Dawneagle Captain for a Vexilla Praetor with the -1 to Hit flag. He adds a lot of survivability to Guardians. If you want to keep the second Dawneagle Captain, I'd drop the Guardians and just take more bikes.
If I lose the second Captain then I lose the +5CP; a Vexilla is an elite not an HQ.
Also, I'd make the Company Commander your Warlord. Use Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquila as long as you can, then when the Company Commander dies pay 1 CP for Shoulder the Mantle and move it on to the Dawneagle Captain (he generates a Warlord trait when you do).
Is the CP regeneration worth losing the 3++ AND the 5+++ on the Shield Captain? The best thing about him is that he can soak up so much damage (I took him against Tau last week for a 1000pts game: he soaked up TWO rounds of the entire Tau armies firepower before going down, that was enough time for the Guardians and the Guard to run up the board and swamp over his battlesuits).
Yeah my brain was in Outrider Detachment mode (only 1 HQ required).
As noted, you can give the Captain the 3++ with 1 CP. He only loses the 5+++ until the Company Commander dies, then Shoulder the Mantle lets him grab it right back! It all comes down to timing and when you really need that defensive buff on him.
mrhappyface wrote: Is the CP regeneration worth losing the 3++ AND the 5+++ on the Shield Captain? The best thing about him is that he can soak up so much damage (I took him against Tau last week for a 1000pts game: he soaked up TWO rounds of the entire Tau armies firepower before going down, that was enough time for the Guardians and the Guard to run up the board and swamp over his battlesuits).
mrhappyface wrote: You can't spend 1CP to give the shield captain a relic though as you can only take relics from your warlord's army.
Aha, see the FAQ's (though I forget which one). You can use the Stratagem to give a relic for any faction as long as you have access to that faction's Stratagems. Doesn't matter if it's the same as the Warlord or not. The Warlord just gets a freebie.
mrhappyface wrote: You can't spend 1CP to give the shield captain a relic though as you can only take relics from your warlord's army.
Aha, see the FAQ's (though I forget which one). You can use the Stratagem to give a relic for any faction as long as you have access to that faction's Stratagems. Doesn't matter if it's the same as the Warlord or not. The Warlord just gets a freebie.
I'd need a reference to that effect since the Codex specifically denies access if you lack a Warlord of that faction.
mrhappyface wrote: You can't spend 1CP to give the shield captain a relic though as you can only take relics from your warlord's army.
Aha, see the FAQ's (though I forget which one). You can use the Stratagem to give a relic for any faction as long as you have access to that faction's Stratagems. Doesn't matter if it's the same as the Warlord or not. The Warlord just gets a freebie.
I'd need a reference to that effect since the Codex specifically denies access if you lack a Warlord of that faction.
I guess "everyone at the tournaments are doing it" wouldn't work? Hang on.
Internet says it's Codex: Deathguard.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
If you want the logic it's because the Stratagem gives you explicit permission to take one and doesn't say anything about a Warlord. So following the rules of the stratagem, you can use it and get it. They're separate sections so they don't block each other.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.
Just be glad you can get the relics it’s not a big deal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Skhmt wrote: Are sisters of silence a good allied choice? What about sororitas?
Or should allies probably be limited to guard and mechanicus?
SoB are top tier. They would make a great ally plus you can run the Saint.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.
There’s times gw feths up the rules. This is not one of them. You just read a rule and assumed it meant more than it did, and well, YOU couldn’t possibly be wrong ong now could you?
Skhmt wrote: Are sisters of silence a good allied choice? What about sororitas?
Or should allies probably be limited to guard and mechanicus?
Do you mean SoB or SoS? Cause the Silent Sisters are different and can't be fielded in detachments with the SoB.
SoB are, I guess O.K.-ish allies? They're lots of cheap power armor and anti-horde/melta. If you're not running bikes (who do great anti-horde with Hurricane Bolters) I could see a use.
Sisters of Silence are good allies, but currently limited by only having three options and no Codex. You're taking an Index ally and it shows. Hopefully they get more later.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.
There’s times gw feths up the rules. This is not one of them. You just read a rule and assumed it meant more than it did, and well, YOU couldn’t possibly be wrong ong now could you?
No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex. Don't get up on your high horse, GW has done this before where they just give a random ruling on something with disregard to the RAW.
Skhmt wrote: Are sisters of silence a good allied choice? What about sororitas?
Or should allies probably be limited to guard and mechanicus?
Do you mean SoB or SoS? Cause the Silent Sisters are different and can't be fielded in detachments with the SoB.
Both/either, I wrote "sisters of silence" and "sororitas".
SoB are, I guess O.K.-ish allies? They're lots of cheap power armor and anti-horde/melta. If you're not running bikes (who do great anti-horde with Hurricane Bolters) I could see a use.
Sisters of Silence are good allies, but currently limited by only having three options and no Codex. You're taking an Index ally and it shows. Hopefully they get more later.
SoS seem like they can shore up the weakness against psykers and are cheaper than custodes, but perhaps not cheaper per wound in 2 out of 3 options. But the army doesn't need more CC ability and bolters and flamers aren't a huge help. But you can run an Astra Telepathica detachment rather than a purely SoS detachment and take some psykers for deny the witch, mortal wounds, and other stuff.
No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex.
The RAW doesn't say that.
It says, and I quote:
"If your army is led by a(n) <codex> Warlord, (then before the battle) you may give one of the following <relics/artefacts/etc> to a(n) <codex> CHARACTER (in your army)." Wording varies slightly from codex to codex, but the major parts are the same. For example, the Thousand Sons codex has the "then before the battle" and "in your army" parts, the Custodes codex has "in your army" but not "then before the battle", and the Necron codex only has "then before the battle" but not "in your army".
It doesn't say that a relic can only be taken if your warlord is from that codex, it says if you have a <codex> warlord, you can give a <relic/artifact/etc> to a <codex> character.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.
There’s times gw feths up the rules. This is not one of them. You just read a rule and assumed it meant more than it did, and well, YOU couldn’t possibly be wrong ong now could you?
No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex. Don't get up on your high horse, GW has done this before where they just give a random ruling on something with disregard to the RAW.
So you’re unhappy because you can take the relics?
No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex.
The RAW doesn't say that.
It says, and I quote:
"If your army is led by a(n) <codex> Warlord, (then before the battle) you may give one of the following <relics/artefacts/etc> to a(n) <codex> CHARACTER (in your army)." Wording varies slightly from codex to codex, but the major parts are the same. For example, the Thousand Sons codex has the "then before the battle" and "in your army" parts, the Custodes codex has "in your army" but not "then before the battle", and the Necron codex only has "then before the battle" but not "in your army".
It doesn't say that a relic can only be taken if your warlord is from that codex, it says if you have a <codex> warlord, you can give a <relic/artifact/etc> to a <codex> character.
It doesn't restrict relics, it adds a free relic.
It does put a restriction down:
If your warlord is of this faction then you may give a <CODEX> character in your army one of the relics. The stratagem then goes on to say you may have an extra relic, in the case of Custodes, that is one extra relic of Terra. Notice the specific wording: "one extra Relic of Terra", meaning that there had to be an initial Relic of Terra for you to use that stratagem, otherwise it would have just said something like: "Use this stratagem to give a character in your army a Relic of Terra (this is as well as any Relics or equiv. already in your army).
That is RAW. The first relic is free (if your warlord is of that faction) but the second comes as an extra to the first relic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: So you’re unhappy because you can take the relics?
I'm unhappy that GW disregards RAW and makes up their own interpretation rather than just errata the stratagem so that it works both RAW and RAI.
No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex.
The RAW doesn't say that.
It says, and I quote:
"If your army is led by a(n) <codex> Warlord, (then before the battle) you may give one of the following <relics/artefacts/etc> to a(n) <codex> CHARACTER (in your army)." Wording varies slightly from codex to codex, but the major parts are the same. For example, the Thousand Sons codex has the "then before the battle" and "in your army" parts, the Custodes codex has "in your army" but not "then before the battle", and the Necron codex only has "then before the battle" but not "in your army".
It doesn't say that a relic can only be taken if your warlord is from that codex, it says if you have a <codex> warlord, you can give a <relic/artifact/etc> to a <codex> character.
It doesn't restrict relics, it adds a free relic.
It does put a restriction down:
If your warlord is of this faction then you may give a <CODEX> character in your army one of the relics. The stratagem then goes on to say you may have an extra relic, in the case of Custodes, that is one extra relic of Terra. Notice the specific wording: "one extra Relic of Terra", meaning that there had to be an initial Relic of Terra for you to use that stratagem, otherwise it would have just said something like: "Use this stratagem to give a character in your army a Relic of Terra (this is as well as any Relics or equiv. already in your army).
That is RAW. The first relic is free (if your warlord is of that faction) but the second comes as an extra to the first relic.
The word "extra" means "added to an existing or usual amount or number" (Cambridge Dictionary) or "more than is due, usual, or necessary" (Mirriam-Webster Dictionary). If the usual amount is zero, having one relic is having an extra relic as 1 is greater than 0.
Skhmt wrote: The word "extra" means "added to an existing or usual amount or number" (Cambridge Dictionary) or "more than is due, usual, or necessary" (Mirriam-Webster Dictionary). If the usual amount is zero, having one relic is having an extra relic as 1 is greater than 0.
If it said "you may take a second relic" instead of "extra relic", I'd agree with you.
From the rules discussion area of this website:
6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.
Skhmt wrote: The word "extra" means "added to an existing or usual amount or number" (Cambridge Dictionary) or "more than is due, usual, or necessary" (Mirriam-Webster Dictionary). If the usual amount is zero, having one relic is having an extra relic as 1 is greater than 0.
If it said "you may take a second relic" instead of "extra relic", I'd agree with you.
From the rules discussion area of this website:
6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.
At the heart of the debate is the word "extra." As both English and American dictionaries agree on the definition, but you disagree with it, I fail to see how properly defining an essential word is out of bounds.
If the stratagem said "take a second relic... You may take a third relic if you pay 3CP", then you'd be right. But it says "take an extra relic... Take a second extra relic", which implies that the number of relics is not known. It's not known because you may be a non-warlord faction with zero, or a warlord faction with one, thus the wording covers both cases.
Well then the entire world and every major tournament this entire edition plays wrong.
Or your wrong.
You get 1 free relic of your warlords faction as explained in the codex and can buy extra relic for any faction you have stratagem access to as per the relevant stratagem and further explained in the Deathguard faq that was quote to you.
I'm thinking of a pure custodes army and I. Need of help. I don't want to go past 2000 points looking for a competitive army or as competitive as can be. Any suggestions on lists or what to buy?
Skhmt wrote:At the heart of the debate is the word "extra." As both English and American dictionaries agree on the definition, but you disagree with it, I fail to see how properly defining an essential word is out of bounds.
If the stratagem said "take a second relic... You may take a third relic if you pay 3CP", then you'd be right. But it says "take an extra relic... Take a second extra relic", which implies that the number of relics is not known. It's not known because you may be a non-warlord faction with zero, or a warlord faction with one, thus the wording covers both cases.
Or the definition of the word 'extra' is extremely broad and can be used to mean slightly different things in different contexts. I'd agree with you if it said "take an extra relic" but it is very specific that (in the case of Custodes) it is an "extra Relic of Terra".
And when exactly has 'extra' ever been used in a context where there were zero of the item in question before hand? If there are zero relics of Terra, you don't get an extra relic of Terra because you had no relics of Terra to begin with.
Ordana wrote:Well then the entire world and every major tournament this entire edition plays wrong.
Or your wrong.
You get 1 free relic of your warlords faction as explained in the codex and can buy extra relic for any faction you have stratagem access to as per the relevant stratagem and further explained in the Deathguard faq that was quote to you.
Please re-read the discussion because you clearly only read the last post without understanding what we're actually discussing.
It specifies the type of Relic because that is the faction you are paying CP for.
If it did not have that specificity I could use the Custodes stratagem to buy an Eldar relic.
Also this discussion should not be in there but in YMDC.
Or the definition of the word 'extra' is extremely broad and can be used to mean slightly different things in different contexts. I'd agree with you if it said "take an extra relic" but it is very specific that (in the case of Custodes) it is an "extra Relic of Terra".
By "relic" I meant "relic of Terra", it wasn't a shorthand to refer to any relic/artefact/etc. In previous posts, I wrote "relic/artefact/etc" to refer generically to that type of item.
And when exactly has 'extra' ever been used in a context where there were zero of the item in question before hand? If there are zero relics of Terra, you don't get an extra relic of Terra because you had no relics of Terra to begin with.
The rules don't bar you from taking relics, they just don't contain an option to do so if your warlord isn't custodes, so the number of relics isn't "not a number" or "undefined" or "false", it's "0". Extra is synonymous with additional in this case. 1 added to 0, or 1 extra over 0, is 1.
You can get a cheese pizza and add extra sausage and olives.
Ordana wrote: It specifies the type of Relic because that is the faction you are paying CP for.
If it did not have that specificity I could use the Custodes stratagem to buy an Eldar relic.
Yes it does. That doesn't change the fact that you can't have an extra relic of Terra without an original relic of Terra RAW.
Skhmt wrote: By "relic" I meant "relic of Terra", it wasn't a shorthand to refer to any relic/artefact/etc. In previous posts, I wrote "relic/artefact/etc" to refer generically to that type of item.
I didn't think you meant that, I said I'd only agree with you if it said "extra relic".
The rules don't bar you from taking relics, they just don't contain an option to do so if your warlord isn't custodes, so the number of relics isn't "not a number" or "undefined" or "false", it's "0". Extra is synonymous with additional in this case. 1 added to 0, or 1 extra over 0, is 1.
You can get a cheese pizza and add extra sausage and olives.
Is this an American thing? In the UK I've never heard extra used in the context you're insinuating.
If there are zero of something and you add one of that something then that is an initial taking of that object not an extra. You get Cheese Pizza with sausage and olives not extra.
Skhmt wrote: By "relic" I meant "relic of Terra", it wasn't a shorthand to refer to any relic/artefact/etc. In previous posts, I wrote "relic/artefact/etc" to refer generically to that type of item.
I didn't think you meant that, I said I'd only agree with you if it said "extra relic".
The rules don't bar you from taking relics, they just don't contain an option to do so if your warlord isn't custodes, so the number of relics isn't "not a number" or "undefined" or "false", it's "0". Extra is synonymous with additional in this case. 1 added to 0, or 1 extra over 0, is 1.
You can get a cheese pizza and add extra sausage and olives.
Is this an American thing? In the UK I've never heard extra used in the context you're insinuating.
If there are zero of something and you add one of that something then that is an initial taking of that object not an extra. You get Cheese Pizza with sausage and olives not extra.
Yeah, in the U.S. we say extra like that all the time.
I'll note, those of you running bikes, be aware of opponents like myself running Devastators now. I can reliably pump out 8 average mortal wounds into enemy bikes turn one, and then 4-5 every turn there after, from 36".
I'll note, those of you running bikes, be aware of opponents like myself running Devastators now. I can reliably pump out 8 average mortal wounds into enemy bikes turn one, and then 4-5 every turn there after, from 36".
I'll note, those of you running bikes, be aware of opponents like myself running Devastators now. I can reliably pump out 8 average mortal wounds into enemy bikes turn one, and then 4-5 every turn there after, from 36".
How do devastators do that?
Take a Missile launcher and use the Flakk Missile strategem then use the Cherub to pop it again same shooting phase.
Primark G wrote: And you can command point one of those rolls for mortal wounds... good luck with that there’s basically no way to stop those wounds versus jetbikes.
I'll note, those of you running bikes, be aware of opponents like myself running Devastators now. I can reliably pump out 8 average mortal wounds into enemy bikes turn one, and then 4-5 every turn there after, from 36".
How do devastators do that?
Take a Missile launcher and use the Flakk Missile strategem then use the Cherub to pop it again same shooting phase.
Well, you could just kill the devastators. It's not like they're particularly durable. The main gun on the Caladius averages 8.64 wounds against them when near a Captain even if they're in cover. A squad of bikes can also start at 37" away, move 14" in and then Hurricane Bolter them. One squad of Bikes with a Captain (24 shots at that range) should kill 2 Devastators (in cover no less). In your standard Outrider Detachment setup, the 3 bike squads and their Captain kill about 6 Devastators in cover and then can likely charge some other target.
All that being said, there's not much ANY Custodes force can do to stop MW output like that except kill the unit generating them. Allarus and Guardians will get shredded as easily as bikes if actually getting hit with that kind of power.
Well, no one is using a Caladius, so that's certainly not much of a concern. Beyond that, you can simply hide them in ruins and them move/fire the devastators. Consider Signum and Stratagem benefits, you largely ignore all penalties for moving.
That being said, yes, you can absolutely find a way to kill them. It's simply important for you to be aware of the threat.
Cephalobeard wrote: Well, no one is using a Caladius, so that's certainly not much of a concern. Beyond that, you can simply hide them in ruins and them move/fire the devastators. Consider Signum and Stratagem benefits, you largely ignore all penalties for moving.
That being said, yes, you can absolutely find a way to kill them. It's simply important for you to be aware of the threat.
No one is using it because it's only beta rules for the caladius right now. Once the final rules hit, if they're similar to the beta rules, I'll probably be using one. The army really needs long range anti-tank.
Take a Missile launcher and use the Flakk Missile strategem then use the Cherub to pop it again same shooting phase.
So they're burning 4CP for this every turn, 5 with a reroll?
In my opinion it's a useless spending of CP even with the last FAQ which boosts the battalion... As a Custodes player this sort of waste does not really frighten me... ^^
Cephalobeard wrote: Well, no one is using a Caladius, so that's certainly not much of a concern. Beyond that, you can simply hide them in ruins and them move/fire the devastators. Consider Signum and Stratagem benefits, you largely ignore all penalties for moving.
That being said, yes, you can absolutely find a way to kill them. It's simply important for you to be aware of the threat.
I use a Caladius
Right, I didn't feel like doing the math but with the bigger movement on the bikes they should be able to position outside maximum threat range of the devastators and then jump over on their own turn to shoot.
It's definitely something Custodes players need to be aware of though, you're right, because it'll wreck you the first time if they aren't.
JNAProductions wrote: Missile Launchers have a 48" threat range, so you'd be looking at needing LoS blocking terrain. Range is not something you can do.
He said 36" range in his initial post so that's what I'm working on. If he moves then it's 42" and then you need LoS to avoid it entirely with Hurricane Bolters, but at the stated 36" you can do it as the bikes will be threat range 38".
36" (and the additional 2d3 MW) comes from the heavy bolter strat in the other dev squad with a cherub.
It's also only 1 CP (can only use the strat once per phase and for some reason GW in their infinite wisdom thinks that once per phase really means once per activation...)
So dev squad 1 with missile + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +2 to hit mws and dev squad 2 with HB + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +1 to hit mws.
At least that is how I understand it. Now to find 170 points to fit those in my army...
JNAProductions wrote: Not sure why he said 36", since Missile Launchers have a 48" range.
That being said, there are two solutions I see:
-LoS blocking terrain.
-MOAR BIKES!
Heavy Bolter, 36".
Need to be within range with 2 squads to activate both and double tap.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote: 36" (and the additional 2d3 MW) comes from the heavy bolter strat in the other dev squad with a cherub.
It's also only 1 CP (can only use the strat once per phase and for some reason GW in their infinite wisdom thinks that once per phase really means once per activation...)
So dev squad 1 with missile + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +2 to hit mws and dev squad 2 with HB + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +1 to hit mws.
At least that is how I understand it. Now to find 170 points to fit those in my army...
Yes. Exactly this. It's 2 CP, with a CP battery likely (gaining it back on a 5+), to pump it out.
bananathug wrote: 36" (and the additional 2d3 MW) comes from the heavy bolter strat in the other dev squad with a cherub.
It's also only 1 CP (can only use the strat once per phase and for some reason GW in their infinite wisdom thinks that once per phase really means once per activation...)
So dev squad 1 with missile + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +2 to hit mws and dev squad 2 with HB + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +1 to hit mws.
At least that is how I understand it. Now to find 170 points to fit those in my army...
Sorry this still confused me.
Can you (or someone) explain with strategem names the exact order this happens?
bananathug wrote: 36" (and the additional 2d3 MW) comes from the heavy bolter strat in the other dev squad with a cherub.
It's also only 1 CP (can only use the strat once per phase and for some reason GW in their infinite wisdom thinks that once per phase really means once per activation...)
So dev squad 1 with missile + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +2 to hit mws and dev squad 2 with HB + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +1 to hit mws.
At least that is how I understand it. Now to find 170 points to fit those in my army...
Sorry this still confused me.
Can you (or someone) explain with strategem names the exact order this happens?
Flakk Missile (1 CP): Used when a <Chapter> Infantry model with a Missile Launcher fires at an enemy unit with the Fly keyword. Add +1 to the hit roll, and if the target is hit, you deal D3 Mortal Wounds instead of the normal damage.
Hellfire Shells (1 CP): Used when firing an Infantry model’s Heavy Bolter. Instead of firing normally, fire one shot and on a successful hit you deal D3 Mortal Wounds to the target.
You can activate the Armorium Cherub that allows the unit to fire again on the model who activated the stratagem. Per the most recent SMFAQ, they state this allows you to fire the user of this stratagem to shoot again.
By having two squads, 2 Cherubs, this allows you to activate one Flakk Missile, use the cherub on that squad, then activate the other squad for Hellfire Shells, then cherub that one.
Once you've fire the cherub to shoot twice, you're limited to doing this once per turn instead of twice.
ex:
Turn 1, you go first.
You are within 36" of a Custodes Bike Squad with 2 Devastator squads..
You elect squad 1 to fire it's heavy bolter at the bikes, as well as one missile. You activate the stratagem to turn the Missile into a Flakk Missile. After you fire, you activate the cherub to shoot twice.
You then to the reverse on squad 2.
After this, from turn 2 onwards, you can activate the stratagem on any of the 4 remaining options. (2 Bolters 2 Missiles)
Q: How do the Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells Stratagems
interact with an Armorium Cherub? Are you able to ‘reload’ the
weapon and fire again with the benefit of the Stratagem?
Thanks, this makes sense. I was wondering how because I thought it was 4 flakk missiles, but you can only use each stratagem once per phase, so it didn't make sense. Using two devastator squads and using cherubs makes it work.
MWs seem to be the weakness of every elite army, and Custodes as an ultra elite army are even more hurt by them.
The only counter play with pure Custodes I can think of is a deepstrike with allarus terminators and shoot the devastators off the board and maybe get a charge off, or pray the Vexilla Magnifica saves you.
Hide turn 1, then come out of cover to focus all fire on them turn 2?
Primark G wrote: Eldar is one of the more elite armies, every unit is highly specialized. They are very well rounded too.
Eldar are only an elite army if you make the conscious choice to make them so. Guardians are a good soaable infantry squad, they have a couple cheap spammable characters, and good spammable vehicles
In my last game my 6 man biker unit shot and attacked in my first turn. And then my opponent shot them off the table in his 1. turn. How do you keep you bikes from getting deleted? Should i may be teleport them?
I will be playing in a soup free tournament where every datasheet can only be taken once except for troops. No forge world is allowed. And you have to take a battalion. the whole army has to be from 1 Codex. This is my current list
termi captain
biker captain
3x3 guard
1 vexilla magnifica
1x9 bikes 7 with bolter 2 with salvo launcher
Do you think a 9 man biker unit is good? Or is it just to big and impractical and not as good as a smaller one? I am also thinking about taking 3 bikes out and putting 3 termis in.
I think I will teleport the bikes. So I am not sure if I need the Vexilla.
Ah, I run them as an ally. They account for around 40% of my total points. I think form a purely competitive PoV just taking the three Shield-Captains is the best choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tbh I don't think a 9-man biker squad is all that good. If you run a Vexilla you'll probably want the terminator Praetor.
nordsturmking wrote: In my last game my 6 man biker unit shot and attacked in my first turn. And then my opponent shot them off the table in his 1. turn. How do you keep you bikes from getting deleted? Should i may be teleport them?
I will be playing in a soup free tournament where every datasheet can only be taken once except for troops. No forge world is allowed. And you have to take a battalion. the whole army has to be from 1 Codex. This is my current list
termi captain
biker captain
3x3 guard
1 vexilla magnifica
1x9 bikes 7 with bolter 2 with salvo launcher
Do you think a 9 man biker unit is good? Or is it just to big and impractical and not as good as a smaller one? I am also thinking about taking 3 bikes out and putting 3 termis in.
I think I will teleport the bikes. So I am not sure if I need the Vexilla.
What do you think?
I would split the bike unit. into 2-3 units. Exactly because of what you experienced. Hitting multiple points of his army limits his retaliation.
Also pure Custodes will never be 'good'. To expensive to get the bodies on the table
There's a London GT list with a big biker bomb and 2 normal bike squads. Honestly, lots of London lists are opting for an Outrider detachment of bikes.
I think 3 squads of Bikes and a Captain is definitely much better than bokting on 3 Captains unless you're deadset on both being a majority Custodes force. 970 on the Outrider gets you 43 wounds and like 41 attacks at the bike profile, plus 60 Bolter shots (120 in Rapid Fire).
As for my lists, taking a battalion of AdMech with 2-3 Onagers is really good so far, but I've been trying to tweak it. The Onagers have a hard time with high T models with invuln saves like Tesseract Vaults and Mortarion, which we're starting to see more of.
Admech is a good ally for Custodes honestly and a better choice than IG if you can get a decent amount of CPs. I was watching a game last nite - Nick Brown was running Admech and IG, but just the bike-cpts... crushed a Ynnari list handily.
"I used 3CP to charge his Razorwing with my Captain and did 4W."
Primark G wrote: "I used 3CP to charge his Razorwing with my Captain and did 4W."
@ Mr HF
Did you feel the low damage was bad dice?
The thing about playing an army that has WS/BS2+ and Av2+ is that you do really notice when you roll 1s... And Jesus did I roll a lot of 1s. I think I would have swept through him much quicker if it wasn't for the fact that I rolled so poorly. Then again, there were quite a few instances of his Lances rolling 1s to hit, even with re-rolls. Honestly, it was some of the most shockingly poor rolling I've seen in a game in a while.
Then again, for the Razorwing charge at least, the average damage is only 5 so I didn't do too bad there.
I was surprised because I haven't had any problems versus Razorwings (shouldn't the average damage be 6 wounds?) but bad dice does happen... anyway glad you like your list!
By my calculations typically all five attacks hit but lets say four for EZ math - 2 wound then another on the reroll which is 3 total times d3 is 6. I am an engineer so please excuse my being practical in this exercise.
By my calculations typically all five attacks hit but lets say four for EZ math - 2 wound then another on the reroll which is 3 total times d3 is 6. I am an engineer so please excuse my being practical in this exercise.
I am an Engineer in training and I would suggest that approximate maths is the kind of thing that causes bridges to collapse and, more importantly, get slightly off values for mathhammer.
Either way, you're not taking the Razorwing's invul into account with your maths.
Primark G wrote: Good engineers know when to make assumptions - good luck with it.
You make assumptions when it would otherwise be too difficult to compute or when you can't know the exact values. But thanks anyway, only a few more, long, years to go.
Does the invul work in melee I’m not sure.
Aye, you're right there; he shouldn't have gotten his invul save.
I think pure bikes was better when you could MSU them; now they are still good but it’s easier to dedicate all your firepower into a single squad. I think 3xshield captains is looking a lot better than I it was when I dismissed it before the FAQ.
greyknight12 wrote: I think pure bikes was better when you could MSU them; now they are still good but it’s easier to dedicate all your firepower into a single squad. I think 3xshield captains is looking a lot better than I it was when I dismissed it before the FAQ.
I mean, you can still take 3 min bike squads. That's 810 points minimum. If you're taking allies that and abike Captain is proooobably a good allotment of points for your Custodes.
What do you think would be the better 1500 point list out of the two? Playing in a semi-competitive/semi-casual meta:
3x Shield Captain on Bikes
3x3 Custodian Guard with Spears
1x Vexilla with Magnifica and Spear
5x Allarus terminators with Axes
OR
1x Shield Captain on a Bike
1x Allarus Shield Captain
3x3 Custodian Guard with Spears
1x Vexilla with Magnifica and Spear
4x Allarus terminators with Axes
3x Vertus Praetors
Not looking to take out the Allarus terminators from either list as they seem to be fun to play with/model up
Why the first one? Is it because the character rules allow the captains to be hidden, thus increasing survivability/flexibility? And also the larger Terminator blob means better usage of strategems?
I thought stock standard Vertus were meant to be more points efficient (90 points vs 160 points for Character, +1A, +2W)?
They're more points efficient, and they're better than the Terminators, but you're insistent upon using the Terminators.
As a result, it's better that you use the list that at least has 3 Captains, which are protected by the worse units you're bringing.
They can move up behind some of the guardians, who will act as the most expensive meat shields you'll ever bring, and then finally meet up with your terminators around turn 2-3.
Haven't had to use this feature in a very long time.
Anyone have any upcoming GTs/RTTs? Any of you taking Bananas to the London Grand Tournament?
What are your lists looking like lately?
Got two tournaments coming up, One minor one 2000 points full beta rules forgeworld allowed, the other has 90+ people 2,000 points full beta rules, no forgeworld. Both lists are still up in the air mostly due to my practice partner stomping me with eldar, so far the basis of my list consists of 2-3 shield captains a 5-6 man bike squad and then struggling to figure out what to aid into the mix
Haven't had to use this feature in a very long time.
Anyone have any upcoming GTs/RTTs? Any of you taking Bananas to the London Grand Tournament?
What are your lists looking like lately?
Got two tournaments coming up, One minor one 2000 points full beta rules forgeworld allowed, the other has 90+ people 2,000 points full beta rules, no forgeworld. Both lists are still up in the air mostly due to my practice partner stomping me with eldar, so far the basis of my list consists of 2-3 shield captains a 5-6 man bike squad and then struggling to figure out what to aid into the mix
If my experience leads me to want to suggest anything:
An AM Battery is always great. Everyone likes to spam stooping dive.
I super, super, super love adding Blood Angels. Be it a Supreme Command of Captains, or just a small Battalion with Scouts and extra items, it's never served me wrong.
My custodes are always allied with a mix of Blood Angels or AM, or both.
Haven't had to use this feature in a very long time.
Anyone have any upcoming GTs/RTTs? Any of you taking Bananas to the London Grand Tournament?
What are your lists looking like lately?
Got two tournaments coming up, One minor one 2000 points full beta rules forgeworld allowed, the other has 90+ people 2,000 points full beta rules, no forgeworld. Both lists are still up in the air mostly due to my practice partner stomping me with eldar, so far the basis of my list consists of 2-3 shield captains a 5-6 man bike squad and then struggling to figure out what to aid into the mix
If my experience leads me to want to suggest anything:
An AM Battery is always great. Everyone likes to spam stooping dive.
I super, super, super love adding Blood Angels. Be it a Supreme Command of Captains, or just a small Battalion with Scouts and extra items, it's never served me wrong.
My custodes are always allied with a mix of Blood Angels or AM, or both.
Second this. Running a Custodes outrider with a IG and a BA battalion myself aswell. Working pretty good sofar.
Haven't had to use this feature in a very long time.
Anyone have any upcoming GTs/RTTs? Any of you taking Bananas to the London Grand Tournament?
What are your lists looking like lately?
Got two tournaments coming up, One minor one 2000 points full beta rules forgeworld allowed, the other has 90+ people 2,000 points full beta rules, no forgeworld. Both lists are still up in the air mostly due to my practice partner stomping me with eldar, so far the basis of my list consists of 2-3 shield captains a 5-6 man bike squad and then struggling to figure out what to aid into the mix
If my experience leads me to want to suggest anything:
An AM Battery is always great. Everyone likes to spam stooping dive.
I super, super, super love adding Blood Angels. Be it a Supreme Command of Captains, or just a small Battalion with Scouts and extra items, it's never served me wrong.
My custodes are always allied with a mix of Blood Angels or AM, or both.
Second this. Running a Custodes outrider with a IG and a BA battalion myself aswell. Working pretty good sofar.
That's my exact detachment build. Wouldn't leave home without it.
What do BA bring to the table that Custodes don't already have and IG can't provide?
I use IG for cheap CP, regaining CP, psyker defense, cheap obsec units, and some added anti-infantry fire. I could shift more points their way for anti-tank fire, but haven't gotten to it yet.
Scouts.
Cheap, high STR multiple attack characters (captains)
A slambo is 114-129pts and gives you 4-5 (base, can drastically increase) s8 ap-4 d3 damage attacks on the charge, with +1 to wound, while also having fly and a 12" move.
They are the unstoppable force to compliment the immovable object.
My current list. Note that this is in preparation for a tournament without the beta rules. (only a small change needed)
Spoiler:
Custodes Outrider
Bike Captain with relic bike
Vexillus Praetor with Magnifica
3x3 Bikes
Imperial Battalion
Company Commander, warlord and Aquila
Tempestor Prime, Command Rod
2x5 Scions with 2 Plasma guns
5 Scions with 2 Volley guns
3x3 Heavy Weapon teams with mortars
Culexus Assassin
Blood Angel Battalion
Captain with TH/SS, relic jump pack
Mephiston, Wings, Quickening, Blood Boil
2x5 Scouts with bolters.
5 Scouts with Knives
For Beta rules the Assassin obviously has to go.
Debating to use the points to replace a Mortar squad into a Basilisk
BA gives scouts which are invaluable for denying table space and the Captain which is a scalpel equipped with a hammer that just removed threats from turn 1 on and demands an answer while costing minimal points.
Scouts.
Cheap, high STR multiple attack characters (captains)
A slambo is 114-129pts and gives you 4-5 (base, can drastically increase) s8 ap-4 d3 damage attacks on the charge, with +1 to wound, while also having fly and a 12" move.
They are the unstoppable force to compliment the immovable object.
While the captains are cheap and kill lots, they basically do what Custodes already do well, be flying melee beasts.
Shouldn't allies fill gaps in capability? Or are you more of the opinion that the entire army should be dedicated to flying and stabbing/smashing, and the rule of 3 limits you?
Scouts.
Cheap, high STR multiple attack characters (captains)
A slambo is 114-129pts and gives you 4-5 (base, can drastically increase) s8 ap-4 d3 damage attacks on the charge, with +1 to wound, while also having fly and a 12" move.
They are the unstoppable force to compliment the immovable object.
While the captains are cheap and kill lots, they basically do what Custodes already do well, be flying melee beasts.
Shouldn't allies fill gaps in capability? Or are you more of the opinion that the entire army should be dedicated to flying and stabbing/smashing, and the rule of 3 limits you?
I agree with you and that is why I take SM for shooting and psy. What I see about these lists is it is all EZ mode.
Scouts.
Cheap, high STR multiple attack characters (captains)
A slambo is 114-129pts and gives you 4-5 (base, can drastically increase) s8 ap-4 d3 damage attacks on the charge, with +1 to wound, while also having fly and a 12" move.
They are the unstoppable force to compliment the immovable object.
While the captains are cheap and kill lots, they basically do what Custodes already do well, be flying melee beasts.
Shouldn't allies fill gaps in capability? Or are you more of the opinion that the entire army should be dedicated to flying and stabbing/smashing, and the rule of 3 limits you?
They're different.
A Custodes bike captian is a tank. At only s6, but 7 wounds, t6 and likely 3++, he exists to weather the storm and play the long game.
My BA captains are 114pts and delete a high value targetevery turn, at s8. Don't forget, you can do all of these in one turn with a BA Captain:
5 attacks base, +d3 attacks from a Stratagem, charge 3d6, ignore overwatch, fight twice, fight again if they die, etc.
As mentioned earlier, a BA Captain is the scalpel. You use it to remove the model you don't want on the table.
You're on my ignore list, but for the millionth time I'll give you the benefit of a doubt here:
We're discussing this strictly in the context of an army using AC, AM, and BA.
This army has, at least, 14cp.
You have a CP battery.
An AC Captain is not terribly CP hungry, in the slightest. The BA Captain exists to use those CP to remove the high toughness threats that the AC cannot as easily deal with.
That fills a gap you would not generally have, list depending. See: context of this discussion.
That is very true. I have to post my friend’s list that won the GT.
Some points -
While this sub-forum is all about tactics it is not all about one army list. Contrary to some opinion there are many ways to field Custodes. We should be open to what people want to play and not espouse only one way. The meta changes quickly now compared to other editions. It is okay to think of feel your way is best but is only that - your opinion.
There are many different ways to play Custodes and there is no one right way.
And to your point, primark...people for the last several comments have been discussing the merits of BA and AM allies. There have been many lists and tactics posted on this thread and a lot of feedback given. That being said, if someone asks “what should I take in this list” I’m going to reccomend what I think is the best unit or combination of units for the job; considering points costs, durability, and damage with mathhammer if necessary to back it up. I’m not going to reccomend a sub-par or inefficient choice if a better one exists because if someone wants criticism of their army they probably want to win and in 40K you can’t just take whatever you want and be guaranteed that outcome. If someone wants to know how to use a particular unit, fine; I’ll make recommendations on how to best use it if you’re committed to having it in your army for whatever reason. That’s just how I personally approach “tactics” discussions in regards to 40K, but I’m sure others have a similar take.
Are Wardens ever a viable choice, or do Allarus terminators always do better?
Wardens are slightly less durable (one less wound but they gain 6+++), are forced to take a Misericordia, are strictly worse in shooting, and don't have a free teleporter. Allarus terminators also have access to three unique stratagems. But they also cost just 25 pts more (88 vs 63) for an apples to apples comparison, both with axes and knives. While this seems like far more points, it's about the same cost per wound (22 vs 21 points per wound), and you double shooting out put for ~33% point increase.
Skhmt wrote: Are Wardens ever a viable choice, or do Allarus terminators always do better?
Wardens are slightly less durable (one less wound but they gain 6+++), are forced to take a Misericordia, are strictly worse in shooting, and don't have a free teleporter. Allarus terminators also have access to three unique stratagems. But they also cost just 25 pts more (88 vs 63) for an apples to apples comparison, both with axes and knives. While this seems like far more points, it's about the same cost per wound (22 vs 21 points per wound), and you double shooting out put for ~33% point increase.
I think someone did the math on it earlier, and if I remember right the wardens do more damage in CC because you get more attacks per point. So if you want to spam axes wardens may be for you, however you hit on their big weakness: mobility. You can teleport them in...but that costs CP. Additionally the terminators have access to more useful strategems. So I’d say it’s probably a wash between them.
For tournaments or list consrruction using and recommending the most efficient choices is the best way to go. If someone builds a list with Allarus or pure custodes and wants the best way to field them, thats a good time to bring it up.
Recommending Allarus for Tournament lists would be like recommending Assault Marines when a thread is talking about the most efficient Raven Guard alpha strike list. As ive said before, I love me some Termies, I own a lot of different types, but...
Im holding out hope the FW versions end up being good whenever they get around to 8th ed rules for them. They should have a 3++ in a Custodes detachment since they are in Cataphractii, which should hopefully help.
I'm hoping the Allarus end up getting a native 4++, but if not I'll settle for FW versions with it (plus that dreadnought with the storm shield). Custodes need to be able to take something better than a 4++ other than shield captains.
I run both Wardens and Allarus and use a CP to deep strike the Wardens. They end up practically having the same survivablilty due to the Wardens’ FNP. The grenade launchers for the Allarus are nice since they have the strategem to stop overwatch which is really good versus things like melta and the strategem to deep strike off the Vexilla means they can charge the turn they arrive. If I was to only run I’d pick the Allarus.
greyknight12 wrote: I'm hoping the Allarus end up getting a native 4++, but if not I'll settle for FW versions with it (plus that dreadnought with the storm shield). Custodes need to be able to take something better than a 4++ other than shield captains.
Vexilla and Custodes Guard can take Storm Shields.
But yeah a native 4++ would be great.
On a different note, two things I'm wondering about. If Custodes are supposed to be individual fighters, why don't all squads have that Allarus ability to split into individuals, or alternatively why don't they just act like tank squads, where you buy them like squads but they act like individuals after the game starts?
Also if Custodes are supposed to have the best equipment, why don't they have kraken or vengeance or hellfire rounds for their guns? Can't 30k Custodes replace the bolter on their spears with a melta or plasma or something?
At what point do you pick warlord traits? What about relics?
Can you choose Impregnable Mind or Radiant Mantle instead of Superior Creation based on the army you're up against, assuming this is a tournament setting?
What about Faith Absolute vs psykers? I know you can definitely do it via Open the Vaults, but can you do it to replace your free relic?
Skhmt wrote: At what point do you pick warlord traits? What about relics?
Can you choose Impregnable Mind or Radiant Mantle instead of Superior Creation based on the army you're up against, assuming this is a tournament setting?
What about Faith Absolute vs psykers? I know you can definitely do it via Open the Vaults, but can you do it to replace your free relic?
Tournaments usually have an order of operations in their packets. NOVA style ones I believe you pick relics in list selection before you know what you're up against but you CAN pick a warlord trait based on your opponent.
Skhmt wrote: At what point do you pick warlord traits? What about relics?
Can you choose Impregnable Mind or Radiant Mantle instead of Superior Creation based on the army you're up against, assuming this is a tournament setting?
What about Faith Absolute vs psykers? I know you can definitely do it via Open the Vaults, but can you do it to replace your free relic?
Tournaments usually have an order of operations in their packets. NOVA style ones I believe you pick relics in list selection before you know what you're up against but you CAN pick a warlord trait based on your opponent.
Well that's good, since Auric is such a good relic either way.
Was considering running a Vexilla Magnifica to allow deny the witch flexibility via CP and Open the Vaults along with changing the Warlord trait for two deny the witches. That helps a lot vs psykers and also doesn't provide an attack surface for their deny the witch or anti-psyker abilities. And as an added benefit, they aren't wasted points as you can switch Warlord trait and just use the standard Vexilla Magnifica.
I am think about buying a Shadowsword for my Custodes it would be a great addition IMO . But i really want to play pure Custodes so i am hoping for the FW rules to come out but even then if the Grav Tank doesn't get a big points drop it probably can't compete with the Shadowsword.
How do you get rid off tank with your AC? other than attacking in CC?
nordsturmking wrote: I am think about buying a Shadowsword for my Custodes it would be a great addition IMO . But i really want to play pure Custodes so i am hoping for the FW rules to come out but even then if the Grav Tank doesn't get a big points drop it probably can't compete with the Shadowsword.
How do you get rid off tank with your AC? other than attacking in CC?
For pure Custodes I usually drown it in Hurricane Bolter shots or use a Caladius. Otherwise, allies.
How to get rid of a tank? Stick some bikes in combat with it.
But yeah, I think a shadowsword would be great
Automatically Appended Next Post: How does a punisher tank commander fare?
Am thinking of fielding one for some nice anti infantry and durable kurovs Aquila.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How does a punisher tank commander fare?
Am thinking of fielding one for some nice anti infantry and durable kurovs Aquila.
The most durable Aquila holder is a Company Commander sitting behind a LOS-blocking terrain somewhere in your backfield while giving orders to mortar teams. Tank Commanders can be targeted and need LOS to shoot so a decent army will be able to kill any of them turn 1.
As for Punisher I really do not feel that Custodes need more anti-infantry shooting, 'cause Hurricanes are great in this role. I would take LRBT commanders instead. And that "s" really matters: when you are going to take an IG unit always try to take it in multiples -- redundancy and volume of fire are what makes IG powerful.
If you charge a tank with bikes they can be counter assaulted the next turn by say another tank which then limits their movement and they will not be able to assault another unit.
Primark G wrote: If you charge a tank with bikes they can be counter assaulted the next turn by say another tank which then limits their movement and they will not be able to assault another unit.
It's one of the most ridiculous tactics I've ever heard about. If we do not think "Rhino" while saying "tank" of course, 'cause a real tank needs to do as much shooting as possible (including overwatch), not to waste a turn in useless CC. The only exception here is Superheavy tanks that can kick some arse indeed and are able to shoot out of CC.
Primark G wrote: Can three jetbikes kill a Rhino when not charging? Remember the Razorwing.
No-and no one is saying it's a bad idea to charge a RHINO into CC with Custodes. Yes, it'll get wrecked in...
11/((35/36)*(1/3)*(5/6)*2*12)=a little under 2 rounds of combat.
But it'll tie them up for a little, and that's valuable.
We're saying it's a bad idea to charge a proper Main Battle Tank into CC with Custodes. A Leman Russ lasts about as long as a Rhino does, but loses a LOT more shooting.
Primark G wrote: Stopping them from charging effectively takes them out of the game for two turns.
It takes them out of charging for a turn. They can still whack you with S6 AP-3 Dd3 spears, or fall back and shoot something. Hell, they can fall back up a building or something, making it impossible for a tank to assault them, and be free to charge next turn.
I fail to see TWO turns. It prevents them charging one turn, in all probability.
Now, if they charged a tank into, say, some Allarus, they, of course, cannot fall back and shoot. And, with only a 6" move, they might very well still be in range to get charged again by the same tank.
You said TWO turns. That's what I'm objecting to. I'll agree that, in most cases, Hurricane Bolters are not as effective as Spears on the charge, and CERTAINLY less effective than using both.
But, here's the thing-it works for ONE turn.
If you're using a Rhino. one of two situations happen:
1) You charge the Rhino in.They half-kill it in CC. On their turn, they fall back to a place you cannot charge them, shoot something, and then their next turn, move, shoot, AND charge. You denied a charge for ONE turn.
2) You charge the Rhino in.They half-kill it in CC. On their turn, they stay in combat, and finish it off. Then, next turn, they move, shoot, AND charge. You denied a charge for ONE turn.
Now, in scenario two, you could PROBABLY feed another Rhino in if you have one. But that's two Rhinos-one per turn.
Primark G wrote: One rhino can effectively neuter a bike squad. What if there are two rhinos? I know jetbikes ATS but maybe just maybe they have a weakness.
Then you can hit two squads, if the Custodes player positioned poorly. Or you can put both into one squad, making them possibly split their attacks, or just Fly out and shoot something else.
And I don't think anyone was saying "Custodes Bikers are the best unit in THE ENTIRE GAME, bar none-they are top-tier competitive and anyone not taking them is shooting themselves in the foot". What was more said was "Custodes Bikers are the best unit in THE ENTIRE CODEX."
Because, this weakness you've found in Bikers? Is not only present in literally every unit in the 'Dex, it's actually WORSE. (With the Exception of DE Captains, and the grav-tanks.) Because they can't Fly out and shoot-they're stuck doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING other than moving if they fall back, or staying in CC.
Using a Rhino to engage a dangerous unit and force it to Fall Back or kill the Rhino is a good tactic. It's just not a new one.
A squad of 3 Bikes will destroy a rhino on the charge, a squad of 5 bikes will destroy a rhino on the charge or being charged... That is, if the law of averages is with you.
And those averages increase if the rhino is wounded which isn't that improbable.
mrhappyface wrote: A squad of 3 Bikes will destroy a rhino on the charge, a squad of 5 bikes will destroy a rhino on the charge or being charged... That is, if the law of averages is with you.
And those averages increase if the rhino is wounded which isn't that improbable.
You didn’t kill a Razorwing on the charge by your own account. Funny how the story changes.
mrhappyface wrote: A squad of 3 Bikes will destroy a rhino on the charge, a squad of 5 bikes will destroy a rhino on the charge or being charged... That is, if the law of averages is with you.
And those averages increase if the rhino is wounded which isn't that improbable.
You didn’t kill a Razorwing on the charge by your own account. Funny how the story changes.
What does that have to do with it?
1. That's a different unit.
2. I charged that with a captain, not a bike squad.
The story hasn't changed, these are two completely different stories with completely different maths.
Yeah, because if we factor in Overwatch against a Rhino...
60 shots is (just over, due to rerolling 1s) 10 hits is 10/3 wounds is 10/9 damage.
Combine that with the 10.8 points of damage you get on average from 5 bikers, and they SHOULD kill a Rhino if the Rhino charges them.
According to Anydice, with Overwatch, they have a...
Wowza. Greater than a 90% chance.
Also, what if the Rhino fails its charge?
Edit: So, I Anydiced 5 Allarus with axes, and they actually have 9 percentage points on the Bikers for killing a Rhino if the Rhino charges. T7 is, after all, their sweet spot.
That being said, I'd still take the bikes over the termies. 90% versus 99% isn't that far off, and the bikers are significantly better in most other categories.
I like how one of the most basic of tactics (charge something tough but worthless into a unit to lock them up) has now been discovered to work at diminished effect against bikers.
It's totally pointless discussion. If you charge an enemy with a proper tank you basically grant them additional fighting phase AND overwatch while denying overwatch for yourself and locking said tank in combat that is stupid. If you charge them with some throwaway unit -- you can deny them a charge for 1 (one) turn IF they will not be able to destroy it with overwatch and CC attacks you allowed them to make in your turn.
But in any case, it is so obvious that only a troll (I think everyone knows who I'm speaking about) can argue about it.
It's totally pointless discussion. If you charge an enemy with a proper tank you basically grant them additional fighting phase AND overwatch while denying overwatch for yourself and locking said tank in combat that is stupid. If you charge them with some throwaway unit -- you can deny them a charge for 1 (one) turn IF they will not be able to destroy it with overwatch and CC attacks you allowed them to make in your turn.
But in any case, it is so obvious that only a troll (I think everyone knows who I'm speaking about) can argue about it.
That is the general tone of this entire thread. I'm glad we're all growing wise to it more and more at this point, and hopefully we can all just learn to ignore it and move on.
So I took Deathwatch into battle as allies. My experimental force was:
Astra Militarum Battalion (Minimum, CP battery, Warlord)
Custodes Outrider (Captain, 3 Bike Squads, Vexilla)
Deathwatch Battalion (Watchmaster, Primaris Librarian, 3 Intercessor Squads one of which had Hellblasters mixed in).
My opponent's list was, without detachment specifics: Magnus, Mortarion, 2 Hellforged Leviathans and a bunch of cultists with smaller HQ's.
We used ITC missions. I have to say, the Intercessors did extremely well. In one turn of shooting, the Hurricane Bolters and Hellfire rounds from them took Mortarion down to 1 HP (I think it was 120 Hurricane Bolter rounds and 30 Hellfire shots total). I obviously used the Deathwatch tactic to let them re-roll 1's to Wound on Heavy Supports and LoW's. I finished him off with a solo charge from the Bike Captain.
The Leviathan Dreadnoughts were MVP's though and decimated large portions of my force. For anyone who doesn't know, the Chaos version is substantially better than the Imperium on. A Chaos Leviathan's Butcher Cannon (which it gets 2 of) fires 8 times at S8 AP-1 and does 2 Damage at 36". It hits on a 2+ normally. Unlike the Imperium version, Chaos doesn't have anything like the Relic rule so they can just take them.
I did end up crippling both Dreadnoughts fairly badly, but not before I lost 2 bike squads to them (third was damaged by Magnus's super smites). Game got called for time (tournament practice) after end of battle round 3. It was extremely close.
I found the Deathwatch to actually be really good allies! I would say about on par with Mechanicum or Blood Angels. Just spamming high rate of fire SIA guns gives you a fairly solid gun line even against the likes of Mortarion or other big beasties (high Tyranids, Guilliman). I was also swimming in CP with 14 base + Kurov's Aquilla + Grand Strategist. Hellblasters are sufficient anti-tank for most purposes too it seems.
I think it would be easy to go 'wrong' with Deathwatch by trying to take too many of their special toys or getting too cute with it. Just spamming bodies with decent rate of fire, keep it very basic, let's them be a nice firepower addition.
Bluthusten wrote: What do you guys thinking about the Forgeworld Tanks?
They're, much like the Land Raider, meh.
Land Raider:
- Better Strength (not really important)
- Better Attacks (again, see above)
- Better Armour Save
- PotMS - Smoke Launchers
- Better shooting vs big targets
Coronus Transport:
- 30pts cheaper
- +1 transport capacity
- Better movement
- More wounds
- 6++ save
- -1 to hit for CC units that charge it
- Able to leave combat and shoot
- Better shooting vs MEQ/GEQ (?)
That's pretty much the run down. As with before, I'd still go with the Land Raider, it fills the gap of transport and high strength fire rather than just transport and more of what Custodes already have. The Grav-tank isn't bad at being a pure shooting platform but I feel like there are better options that can be brought in by Admech and cheaper options that can be filled by Guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Skhmt wrote: Are there any good LoWs or flyers to use with Custodes?
Knights seem too expensive, but would be pretty nice. It's too bad only traitor knights can take two avenger gatlings.
There's always the Shadowsword/Baneblade/etc. shenanigans. I'm gonna try it out at some point.
Nice to see a couple of pure Custodes lists doing well there. Seeing the same AM + Custodes Imperium soup lists just spamming jetbikes gets incredibly boring, as great as bikes are. Hopefully we see some of the FW Custodes units make these lists at some point.
Keeping in mind the rule of two (can take each datasheet only twice besides troop choices, and two detachments max), what's the best 1k points Custodes list?
Right now I like two shield captains on bike, 6 guard, 3 guard, 3 guard for a battalion, all with Misericordia. I teleport in the large squad.
Minimum guard battalion + 2-3 shield captains on bike + 6-9 vertus praetors and fill the rest of the points with custodian guard to make a second battalion or run a 3rd detachment of allies or put more into the guard side of the list.
Minimum guard battalion + 2-3 shield captains on bike + 6-9 vertus praetors and fill the rest of the points with custodian guard to make a second battalion or run a 3rd detachment of allies or put more into the guard side of the list.
Bikes are the best unit in the codex by far.
Nothing does CP battery like Guard.
The only question is what to do with the rest of the points.
Well I'm trying to build a list with Custodes + AdMech, probably a Cawl Mars detachment of some sort.
At least two lasercrawlers and a squad of robots I think, but the robots force the use of Cawl and a Cybernetica Datasmith, so maybe 3 lasercrawlers and a battalion instead might work better.
Gives us that good long range anti-tank that the list is lacking, along with snipers via Rangers with Arquebuses.
Something like:
Custodes Outrider Shield-Captain on Bike with hurricane bolter and misericordia
Shield-Captain on Bike with hurricane bolter
3 Vertus Praetors with 3 hurricane bolters
3 Vertus Praetors with 3 hurricane bolters
3 Vertus Praetors with 3 hurricane bolters
Mechanicus Styges Battalion Tech-priest Dominus with volkite blaster and macro stubber
Tech-priest Enginseer
8 Skitarii Rangers with 2 transauranic arquebuses
5 Skitarii Rangers with 1 transauranic arquebus
5 Skitarii Rangers with 1 transauranic arquebus
Onager Dunecrawler with neutron laser, 2 cognis heavy stubbers, broad spectrum data-tether
Onager Dunecrawler with neutron laser, 2 cognis heavy stubbers, broad spectrum data-tether
Onager Dunecrawler with neutron laser, 2 cognis heavy stubbers, broad spectrum data-tether
That's why I took the broad spectrum data-tether on the neutron lasers though. If the target has hard-to-hit, you can spend 1CP to make a dunecrawler 2+ to hit.
While that's not ideal, the list also has a few jetbikes too.
The list also puts out 183 S4 shots a turn at 12", and 98 S4 shots at 24", about 2/3 of those shots at BS2+. So weight of fire is pretty ok too.
Ordana wrote: Id take a look at the Icarus array over (some) Neutrons, a lot of scary stuff you want to shoot has Fly.
I considered AdMech robots aswell but its a big point investiment and CP hungry so combining bikes, robots and guard never really fit in a list.
When I did the math waaaay back when, a Neutron Laser did comparable damage to something like a Fire Raptor as the Icarus Array did. I generally prefer the Neutrons having run a list like that maybe half a dozen times.
Onagers match well with Custodes since they wreck vehicles and monsters at range. I’d like to know how it works out for you. The tether is really good too.
Randomly I may have found the cheapest (by MSRP) battleforged 1500 pt list.
3 supreme command detachments with 3 of each captain type, all 6 foot captains with guardian spears, plus two vexilla praetors with magnifica and misericordia. 1500 pts exactly, 1 box of Allarus, 1 box of Vertus, and 1 box of Guard. You will have to convert the second vexilla with the Allarus one though.
It's pretty sad there aren't enough points for axes and the Vexilla Praetors are only armed with a knife.
It's also a very bad list. But this is how it should be, 11 Custodians against 375 Cultists.
Yeah, being able to protect your Shadowsword from a first turn alpha strike is too good not to use. For that reason, I'd go for list 2 and make your Warlord a company commander with the CP artifact and the CP warlord trait.
And there we have 90% of the problems with 8th edition rules.
"Battlescribe lets me do it".
To get back on topic. I have considered a Shadowsword aswell, but it kills 1 thing really hard when I feel like I would rather be able to hit more targets for that price tag. Like several Leman Russes or Predators.
But my local area doesn't include a lot (any) super heavies so if your facing them more regularly its value goes up a lot.
Primark G wrote: I feel that the SS is too many points invested in one unit.
It's not as bad as other massive point investment units though since you can keep it off the board for turn 1 (or until you take down the enemy's anti-armour units) and avoid an alpha strike taking it down.
Primark G wrote: Very pricey for the points. I could see taking one with double ranged weapons and losing the power fists.
Agreed. T8, 2+/4++/6+++ 15 wound frame with either 20 s7 ap-1 d3d or 12 S8 ap-3 d3d shots, plus 10 super heavy bolter shots if stationary for 340/310 points respectively seems pretty good all things considered. The plasma throwers make the melee variant prohibitively expensive.
I'm on my way to Warhammer Fest right now (at airport). Hope they have some for sale there!
Yeah, 310 for 12 str 8 plasma shots and 5/10 better bolter shots isn’t too shabby on a T8, 15 wound 2+/4++/6+++ platform.
I’d never take the CCW arms though. 185 points for a bit of melee threat and 4d6 plasma flamer shots is shockingly high. Besides, with Custodes, if you want more melee threat, all you need is another unit of bikers (practically 2 units for bikes for a single basic Telemon).
I'd NEVER EVER suggest anyone takes 1 ccw arm and 1 shooty weapon, as the cost of the single arm becomes 120 points.... lol...
60" 8 shots with S8 -3AP d3 dmg 36" 6 shots with S6 -2AP 1dmg
and then there is the Telemon
310p with two Iliastus accelerator culverin for
T8 15W 2+ 4++ 6+++
36" 12 shots with S8 -3AP d3 dmg 24" 5/10 shots with S5 -2AP 1dmg
The Telemon is almost 100% harder to kill, does more dmg and can deep strike. I think FW is not comparing units.
why would i ever take the Grav Tank now? Or does this
"A Telemon Heavy Dreadnought may replace one or both of its Telemon Caestus and twin plasma ejectors with one
of the following (both a Telemon Caestus and a twin plasma ejector must be exchanged for a single option).
• Arachnus las-storm
• Iliastus accelerator culverin"
mean i can take only one Iliastus accelerator culverin?
60" 8 shots with S8 -3AP d3 dmg 36" 6 shots with S6 -2AP 1dmg
and then there is the Telemon
310p with two Iliastus accelerator culverin for
T8 15W 2+ 4++ 6+++
36" 12 shots with S8 -3AP d3 dmg 24" 5/10 shots with S5 -2AP 1dmg
The Telemon is almost 100% harder to kill, does more dmg and can deep strike. I think FW is not comparing units.
why would i ever take the Grav Tank now? Or does this
"A Telemon Heavy Dreadnought may replace one or both of its Telemon Caestus and twin plasma ejectors with one
of the following (both a Telemon Caestus and a twin plasma ejector must be exchanged for a single option).
• Arachnus las-storm
• Iliastus accelerator culverin"
mean i can take only one Iliastus accelerator culverin?
I tripped up on that at first, too. But, based on the clarification inside the parentheses, it only means you can't replace a single close combat arm with two ranged weapons. You can still replace both close combat arms with 1 ranged weapon each.
60" 8 shots with S8 -3AP d3 dmg 36" 6 shots with S6 -2AP 1dmg
and then there is the Telemon
310p with two Iliastus accelerator culverin for
T8 15W 2+ 4++ 6+++
36" 12 shots with S8 -3AP d3 dmg 24" 5/10 shots with S5 -2AP 1dmg
The Telemon is almost 100% harder to kill, does more dmg and can deep strike. I think FW is not comparing units.
why would i ever take the Grav Tank now? Or does this
"A Telemon Heavy Dreadnought may replace one or both of its Telemon Caestus and twin plasma ejectors with one
of the following (both a Telemon Caestus and a twin plasma ejector must be exchanged for a single option).
• Arachnus las-storm
• Iliastus accelerator culverin"
mean i can take only one Iliastus accelerator culverin?
I tripped up on that at first, too. But, based on the clarification inside the parentheses, it only means you can't replace a single close combat arm with two ranged weapons. You can still replace both close combat arms with 1 ranged weapon each.
Ok sool so the Telemon is the AT Option we were waiting for
60" 8 shots with S8 -3AP d3 dmg 36" 6 shots with S6 -2AP 1dmg
and then there is the Telemon
310p with two Iliastus accelerator culverin for
T8 15W 2+ 4++ 6+++
36" 12 shots with S8 -3AP d3 dmg 24" 5/10 shots with S5 -2AP 1dmg
The Telemon is almost 100% harder to kill, does more dmg and can deep strike. I think FW is not comparing units.
why would i ever take the Grav Tank now? Or does this
"A Telemon Heavy Dreadnought may replace one or both of its Telemon Caestus and twin plasma ejectors with one
of the following (both a Telemon Caestus and a twin plasma ejector must be exchanged for a single option).
• Arachnus las-storm
• Iliastus accelerator culverin"
mean i can take only one Iliastus accelerator culverin?
I tripped up on that at first, too. But, based on the clarification inside the parentheses, it only means you can't replace a single close combat arm with two ranged weapons. You can still replace both close combat arms with 1 ranged weapon each.
Yeah they flubbed the RAW on his weapons loadout hard. RAW I think you have the option of trading one or both close combat weapons for just one gun, not one gun each, but RAI seems pretty obvious they meant one gun each.
Telemon is silly good anti-tank compared to any other native custodes option, and compares favorably to a lot of the other imperial options that aren't IG.
Also, telemon is in BS and will be out with the next release
WindstormSCR wrote: Telemon is silly goot anti-tank compared to any other native custodes option, and compares favorably to a lot of the other imperial options that aren't IG.
Also, telemon is in BS and will be out with the next release
My hero of the day!
But yeah, this thing is basically a Custodes version of a Dakka-Leviathan, not a CC monster.
Cephalobeard wrote: I look forward to rules set in stone, not beta ones, before I make any purchases.
I bet they'll be close, so I went ahead and snagged this guy. I think the double S7 guns is the optimal build if you're shooting at anything with hight T and a 4++ or better (Tesseract Vaults, Mortarion, Magnus, Guilliman, e.t.c.). I'm looking forward to trying this out.
Cephalobeard wrote: I look forward to rules set in stone, not beta ones, before I make any purchases.
I bet they'll be close, so I went ahead and snagged this guy. I think the double S7 guns is the optimal build if you're shooting at anything with hight T and a 4++ or better (Tesseract Vaults, Mortarion, Magnus, Guilliman, e.t.c.). I'm looking forward to trying this out.
Forge world is... kinda fethed ATM, so close is never certain
Cephalobeard wrote: I look forward to rules set in stone, not beta ones, before I make any purchases.
I bet they'll be close, so I went ahead and snagged this guy. I think the double S7 guns is the optimal build if you're shooting at anything with hight T and a 4++ or better (Tesseract Vaults, Mortarion, Magnus, Guilliman, e.t.c.). I'm looking forward to trying this out.
If theyre close they wouldnt be releasing PDFs piecemeal. Also remember, 'soon' in company terms may not be soon in yours. Soon could mean next year.
Cephalobeard wrote: I look forward to rules set in stone, not beta ones, before I make any purchases.
I bet they'll be close, so I went ahead and snagged this guy. I think the double S7 guns is the optimal build if you're shooting at anything with hight T and a 4++ or better (Tesseract Vaults, Mortarion, Magnus, Guilliman, e.t.c.). I'm looking forward to trying this out.
If theyre close they wouldnt be releasing PDFs piecemeal. Also remember, 'soon' in company terms may not be soon in yours. Soon could mean next year.
You misunderstand. I meant his beta rules would be close (in content) to his real rules. Meaning I have a fair idea of what to expect.
In terms of proximity, I feel like we might see them in Fires of Cyraxus which rumors say are Q3 this year.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I did some math on this guy's durability. This does NOT include the Vexilla Magnifica.
It would take Space Marines an average of 23 lascannon shots to kill him without re-rolls.
He takes 972 bolters to down in similar conditions.
The Dreadnought, I just... What? Like that is absurdly tanky and has an outrageous damage output for what it costs. It would probably beat Bray'arth Ashmantle in a fist fight with one Cestus equipped (albeit that does make it markedly more expensive and there is no reason why you'd ever do that)
Going with the double Culverins, It costs 310 points. It moves faster, has more effective damage output, and twice the number of wounds of what is supposed to be one the tankiest dreads out there at 90 fewer points. It is 1T lower than Bray'arth, but first impression is that this guy seems busted as all hell.
Crazyterran wrote: its a leviathan with a 6+++ and a point of strength. Why is everyone going crazy?
Well, his guns are also 50% and 100% more range than the Leviathan's farthest range gun which is huge because being stuck in mid-range is a problem for standard issue. He's also cheaper points-wise due to being able to avoid mandatory-flamer-syndrome.
The Telemon seems good but it does have a couple noticeable restrictions. You can only take one per army, not detachment, and it’s a heavy support slot. Due to Custodes’ inability to fill out a spearhead detachment without also taking two land raiders or grav-carriers, it won’t be something easy for people to soup in without a serious point investment. The cheapest way to get one in your army using a pure Custodes detachment is a 588 point patrol detachment with a shield-captain, custodian guard squad, and double iliastus Telemon. I doubt that that 588 point investment is worth it for most soup armies. Having one Telemon, as good a unit it is just looking at its return to point costs, I actually think it’s decently balanced in the context of a Custodes army considering the above. Custodes also can’t field enough bodies on their own to screen the double iliastus/double arachnus versions effectively.
Crazyterran wrote: its a leviathan with a 6+++ and a point of strength. Why is everyone going crazy?
Well, his guns are also 50% and 100% more range than the Leviathan's farthest range gun which is huge because being stuck in mid-range is a problem for standard issue. He's also cheaper points-wise due to being able to avoid mandatory-flamer-syndrome.
Double Stormcannon Leviathan is the same price (well, one point cheaper) as the heavy six variant. Im pretty aure the grav bombard variant is cheaper than the heavy 10 variant of the Telemon.
Longer range is nice, but it still isnt the terrifying beast that its being made out to be.
Uhhh Leviathans are awesome, and this one doesn't need a heavy support relic tax, so it's actually significantly better than a SM one even with the one per army restriction. Oh, and you can teleport it to keep it off the board from alpha strikes unlike a regular Leviathan. Like, I'm not sure what more youre expecting for 310 points.
Crazyterran wrote: its a leviathan with a 6+++ and a point of strength. Why is everyone going crazy?
Well, his guns are also 50% and 100% more range than the Leviathan's farthest range gun which is huge because being stuck in mid-range is a problem for standard issue. He's also cheaper points-wise due to being able to avoid mandatory-flamer-syndrome.
Double Stormcannon Leviathan is the same price (well, one point cheaper) as the heavy six variant. Im pretty aure the grav bombard variant is cheaper than the heavy 10 variant of the Telemon.
Longer range is nice, but it still isnt the terrifying beast that its being made out to be.
Your comparisons are off. The Arachnus should be compared to the Storm cannons and the Grav-Flux costs more than a Storm csnnon (but is 1 cheaper than the Arachnus). Note also our Spiculum is free while either loadout of a normal Leviathan requires more points when you add their extra guns (Hunter Killers).
A Leviathan is already a terrying beast and Chaos's are actually used in competitive because they don't pay a Relic tax and have greater than than 24" range. What two traits does this guy also share?
Its not worth going insane over, I havent seen a Leviathan in a top table or even top 8 list. Especially since FW limited the Telemon to 1/army.
Its definitely an excellent heavy support unit for the typically ranged limited Custodes, and it 100% has a place in any pure custodes force.
The Relic tax is not really a tax when you are taking more than one heavy support anyways, so... we can disregard that when comparing it to the Leviathan. Though, at the moment, the only other heavy support Custodes have worth taking is the grav tank. Most pure Marine armies are carrying Heavy Support in spades, in my experience. Not really going to see Leviathans or Telemons in soup lists, imo, since you can get more guns elsewhere.
The Stormcannon is cheaper than the 10 shot Telemon, even adding Hunter Killers, and the Telemon is cheaper when comparing the 6 shot 8/-3/d3 to the Grav Bombard variety.
If you are going to hide the Telemon off the board in reserve, then why does the range on the guns matter? Especially since Alpha Striking got nerfed.
Crazyterran wrote: Its not worth going insane over, I havent seen a Leviathan in a top table or even top 8 list. Especially since FW limited the Telemon to 1/army.
Its definitely an excellent heavy support unit for the typically ranged limited Custodes, and it 100% has a place in any pure custodes force.
The Relic tax is not really a tax when you are taking more than one heavy support anyways, so... we can disregard that when comparing it to the Leviathan. Though, at the moment, the only other heavy support Custodes have worth taking is the grav tank. Most pure Marine armies are carrying Heavy Support in spades, in my experience. Not really going to see Leviathans or Telemons in soup lists, imo, since you can get more guns elsewhere.
The Stormcannon is cheaper than the 10 shot Telemon, even adding Hunter Killers, and the Telemon is cheaper when comparing the 6 shot 8/-3/d3 to the Grav Bombard variety.
If you are going to hide the Telemon off the board in reserve, then why does the range on the guns matter? Especially since Alpha Striking got nerfed.
I'm not hiding it off the board, that's a different poster
Hellforged Leviathans absolutely are meta and super strong competitive for the two reasons I listed: range and no relic tax. Contrary to your assertion, there are no high end competitive Space Marine lists I know of with lots of heavy support (in fact, Marines in general are hurting pretty bad, even the famed Guilliman parking lot has not been placing too well overall).
Now I think you're mixing relative and total cost, yeah?
A Relic Leviathan with 2 Storms and 3 Hunter Killers is 327 points by itself. A Custodes Telemon with it's Storm equivalents is 340. That's a 13 point difference just between the models, but the Custodes offensive power is comparatively cheaper because a lot of that 340 comes from defensive advantages the Telemon has (+1" Move, +1W, 6+++).
The Relic tax shoves the cost differential way over though. The cheapest HS I know of is a barebones Devastator squad with no Cherub, which is 65 points. Besides being a garbage unit with that loadout, it makes the real cost of the Relic Leviathan 392 points minimum. For 24" range Vs. 48" and a Spiculum that can fire twice instead of 3 Hunter Killers, plus the defensive advantages. The point difference only goes higher if you try to make your tax unit actually useful.
So heck yeah this guy is great. It's basically a Hellforged Leviathan but for Custodes. It's a shame we're stuck with just one but it's huge we get one!
I didnt mean to imply the loyalist variety of Levi was better, just that it is the comparable unit, and its not as brokenly good as some posters were claiming.
I will be picking one up for my Custodes army - i was already leaning towards getting one because it is gorgeous, but now...
Crazyterran wrote: Its not worth going insane over, I havent seen a Leviathan in a top table or even top 8 list. Especially since FW limited the Telemon to 1/army.
Its definitely an excellent heavy support unit for the typically ranged limited Custodes, and it 100% has a place in any pure custodes force.
The Relic tax is not really a tax when you are taking more than one heavy support anyways, so... we can disregard that when comparing it to the Leviathan. Though, at the moment, the only other heavy support Custodes have worth taking is the grav tank. Most pure Marine armies are carrying Heavy Support in spades, in my experience. Not really going to see Leviathans or Telemons in soup lists, imo, since you can get more guns elsewhere.
The Stormcannon is cheaper than the 10 shot Telemon, even adding Hunter Killers, and the Telemon is cheaper when comparing the 6 shot 8/-3/d3 to the Grav Bombard variety.
If you are going to hide the Telemon off the board in reserve, then why does the range on the guns matter? Especially since Alpha Striking got nerfed.
I'm not hiding it off the board, that's a different poster
Hellforged Leviathans absolutely are meta and super strong competitive for the two reasons I listed: range and no relic tax. Contrary to your assertion, there are no high end competitive Space Marine lists I know of with lots of heavy support (in fact, Marines in general are hurting pretty bad, even the famed Guilliman parking lot has not been placing too well overall).
Now I think you're mixing relative and total cost, yeah?
A Relic Leviathan with 2 Storms and 3 Hunter Killers is 327 points by itself. A Custodes Telemon with it's Storm equivalents is 340. That's a 13 point difference just between the models, but the Custodes offensive power is comparatively cheaper because a lot of that 340 comes from defensive advantages the Telemon has (+1" Move, +1W, 6+++).
The Relic tax shoves the cost differential way over though. The cheapest HS I know of is a barebones Devastator squad with no Cherub, which is 65 points. Besides being a garbage unit with that loadout, it makes the real cost of the Relic Leviathan 392 points minimum. For 24" range Vs. 48" and a Spiculum that can fire twice instead of 3 Hunter Killers, plus the defensive advantages. The point difference only goes higher if you try to make your tax unit actually useful.
So heck yeah this guy is great. It's basically a Hellforged Leviathan but for Custodes. It's a shame we're stuck with just one but it's huge we get one!
Chaos Leviathans are meta in an army that is full of them, relying on target overload.
You can't spam Telemons.
The fact that the Telemon is unique cannot be ignored when evaluating it.
Just got out of the Forge World seminar at Warhammer Fest. First Imperial Armour book is Talons of the Emperor which will include custodes, sisters of silence and gray knights. Will include "updated rules for the entire range" and should be expected around summer. Will do a more in depth write up when I'm not doing it on my phone.
Raulengrin wrote: Just got out of the Forge World seminar at Warhammer Fest. First Imperial Armour book is Talons of the Emperor which will include custodes, sisters of silence and gray knights. Will include "updated rules for the entire range" and should be expected around summer. Will do a more in depth write up when I'm not doing it on my phone.
Oh my...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I got my first 2k game yesterday running this list:
I played against a Brigade of Nids and won. The Land Raider (w/ Wardens and Captain inside), three units of Guard and the Vexilla made for a scary Deathstar: he didn't want to shoot at it because his big shooting units would be hitting on 5s and he didn't want to assault it with 15 Custodes protecting the Land Raider, this meant I quite comfortably controlled the center of the board. The bikes and bike Captain went down turn 1 to the combined firepower of most of his army + charging but they did manage to decimate a 30 man gaunt unit and the Captain hammered his Broodlord after being killed.
Also, a big sloppy kiss to whoever suggested making an IG officer my warlord because I spent the first 3 turns with over 10CP despite spending loads of it on stratagems.
I may be going off tangent here, but do you think we will get rules for the Custodes Terminators from 30k?
Id like to see how they would transfer the hilarious torrent rule to 8th with their firepikes. Literally the ultimate horde killer, and if they have a natural 4++ then it will make them probably the best terminator variant in 40k.
Dr. Mills wrote: I may be going off tangent here, but do you think we will get rules for the Custodes Terminators from 30k?
Id like to see how they would transfer the hilarious torrent rule to 8th with their firepikes. Literally the ultimate horde killer, and if they have a natural 4++ then it will make them probably the best terminator variant in 40k.
Literally 2 posts above yours...
FW custodes rules this summer.
FW sells terminators so yes it will include rules for them.
So what would generally be the best all around loadout for a Telemon? I'm leaning towards double Iliastus Accelerator Culverins because it has the ranged STR and AP Custodes desperately needs while also having enough shots to reliably threaten tanks, light vehicles, heavy infantry, and even put a dent in hordes if need be. Double Arachnus Las-Storms seems solid if you really want to go anti-horde but we have hurricane bolters on jetbikes that can handle that and while they seem decent against vehicles I like the STR 8 and AP -3 on the Accelerator Culverins more. If the fists and twin plasma ejectors were about 15-20 pts cheaper each, they might not be a bad choice at least as a charge deterrent.
Deep-striking these guys to protect them from turn 1 shooting also seems like a good strategy if you're not already spending 1 CP to deep strike something else, also gets them within 24" easily so all their guns are in range.
Skhmt wrote: Are land raiders worth taking in pure Custodes? They are a transport and provide long range anti-tank, but they're really expensive.
If you don't want be competitive it is kinda ok. But the same points will by you 4 bikes with Bolters or almost 4 with launchers. The bikes are tougher and will delete stuff in melee. The LR has a bit more range. And since the bikes are the best unit in the codex i would use bikes instead of a LR for competitive games. If you can get your hands on a Telemon and your opponent is ok with the Beta rules i would highly recommend using a Telemon with two Iliastus accelerator culverins.
Skhmt wrote: Are land raiders worth taking in pure Custodes? They are a transport and provide long range anti-tank, but they're really expensive.
To expensive, to squishy (weird as that sounds for a land raider, no invul hurts) and if it does its job as a transport it will get charged and be unable to fire.
I'd like to be as competitive as possible for an all Custodes list.
Which means taking at least 3x3 Custodes Guard squads. Teleporting one is an option, but two is expensive, and three isn't an option.
I went up against a guard army that was deleting 12-15 wounds of Custodes every turn, my walking Guard got ruined by all the battle cannons and earthshakers.
I have bikes and bike captains, but they were all equipped with hurricane bolters, which does pretty much nothing to a Leman Russ. His Tank Commander vaporized my warlord in overwatch. I could take missiles, but the bolters are the main form of anti-infantry.
@Shkmt Land Raider + a Vexilla and Captain isn't so bad; worst case scenario, it'll distract the enemy fire away from your bikes for a turn or two; best case scenario, you'll be popping a tank a turn.
@Jotace 750pts doesn't leave you much choice on what to take: maybe a Bike Captain, one guard squad, a bike squad and an IG detachment? 8CP, some units to hold objectives and you still get your fast moving bikes.
Skhmt wrote: I'd like to be as competitive as possible for an all Custodes list.
Which means taking at least 3x3 Custodes Guard squads. Teleporting one is an option, but two is expensive, and three isn't an option.
I went up against a guard army that was deleting 12-15 wounds of Custodes every turn, my walking Guard got ruined by all the battle cannons and earthshakers.
I have bikes and bike captains, but they were all equipped with hurricane bolters, which does pretty much nothing to a Leman Russ. His Tank Commander vaporized my warlord in overwatch. I could take missiles, but the bolters are the main form of anti-infantry.
You need a lot of Salvo Launchers to take out a LR (like 8 orso). I prefer Hurricanes to clear out all the chaff and charge the tanks.
Skhmt wrote: I'd like to be as competitive as possible for an all Custodes list.
Which means taking at least 3x3 Custodes Guard squads. Teleporting one is an option, but two is expensive, and three isn't an option.
I went up against a guard army that was deleting 12-15 wounds of Custodes every turn, my walking Guard got ruined by all the battle cannons and earthshakers.
I have bikes and bike captains, but they were all equipped with hurricane bolters, which does pretty much nothing to a Leman Russ. His Tank Commander vaporized my warlord in overwatch. I could take missiles, but the bolters are the main form of anti-infantry.
A few missiles is fine, does a bit of extra damage to ensure a kill on a charge against a hard target. You do want more hurricanes though. Leman russ aren't actually terrible to fight against with bikes as once you touch them, they're mostly useless until you kill them (takes 2 turns on average, but hot dice can 1 round one). It's flyers with high toughness that is the primary problem. Riptides, wave serpants, most flyers, don't die when hit by your very expensive unit, then they fly away and keep shooting.
So far I've had the opposite experience, flyers and such are forced to keep their distance if they don't wanna be charged and shredded. Their weapons slowly chip away at bikes but nothing too dramatic
You can tie up leman russes but getting to them is the issue. Doesn't matter how many Guardsmen I mow down I just can't get to them before all my bikes are battlecannoned to death, banner or no banner.
but only 3 
