tetrisphreak wrote: Looking at it from a RAW perspective, I see Col_impact's point. Clearly.
Manufactorum Genestealer Brood - 5x units of genestealers. Restrictions: Genestealer broods in this formation may not add any additional genestealers. Pretty clear - I can take 5x5 broods, and add any other upgrades (including a broodlord), but no genestealers.
The canoptek harvest is missing this restriction. It would have been simple to add it in - and it was not. I think the INTENDED rule, for balance of the game if nothing else, was that the "1 canoptek spyder" was supposed to be it - no extras. However on the RAW side it most certainly can be upgraded to include 2 more spyders.
HIWPI - I'm not going to run more than 1 spyder per canoptek harvest. It's how i feel the formation is intended to be ran. However, should I face a necron player who puts 2 or 3 spyders in the formation, it's within the cut-and-dry rules for them to do so. It might leave a case of feel-badsies on the table, but dem's da rulez.
Thank you. That was a very helpful assist. My overall argument is that we need to consistently take the rules as they are unless a collective vote is made for a house rule, which of course people always have the power to do.
col_impact wrote: Please sir form a rules argument which takes away my permission in the army entry list to add additional spyders. I can add additonal spyders because the options in the army entry list give me clear permission to do so.
No. People have given you valid arguments, and you refuse to hear them.
col_impact wrote: Please sir form a rules argument which takes away my permission in the army entry list to add additional spyders. I can add additonal spyders because the options in the army entry list give me clear permission to do so.
No. People have given you valid arguments, and you refuse to hear them.
You have copy paste functionality. Feel free to post them again. Not a single counter argument has held up to scrutiny.
Go back and reread any of the YMDC threads where you were obtuse and the threads became locked after pages of circular arguments. Leave it out of this thread.
So what's people's opinion on the Heavy slots? If you were running 3 units of Wraiths, and had 140-170 points to spend on a single heavy choice, what would that be? This is in a CAD by the way.
A unit of 3 Heavy Destroyers seems nice just on their own. Anyone tried them yet? Because of preferred enemy they're really reliable in what they do, they got a long range (as far as Necron guns usually go) and they can jump shoot jump. The 25 points per T5 3+ SV 5+ RP wound is great value when you consider the weaponry and mobility.
omerakk wrote: I don't really think players are handicapping themselves by only taking 1 spyder; I think the formation works fine with as few points in it as possible.
Unless of course, you're wanting to use the formation as a platform for the full blown scarab farm.
Adding 3 bases a turn to a unit that gets RP.... could be extremely annoying for people to deal with.
I'm running 9 Spyders in a CAD + Decurion + Canoptek Swarm, adding 10 Scarab bases a turn, that get 4+ RP.
It's is actually 2 fewer Spyders than I was previously running.
If your focus is on the Wraiths, yeah I can see what your are saying and you only really need/want the single spyder. If your focusing on the Scarabs however, 3 Spyders are better than 1. Even with 4+ RP I was still losing about 3 scarab bases per turn. A swarm of 9, supported by a single Spyder, just isn't going to cut it for me.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Go back and reread any of the YMDC threads where you were obtuse and the threads became locked after pages of circular arguments. Leave it out of this thread.
Actually your comment here is a clear case of an obtuse argument. I asked you to present an argument and you can only insult.
I tried out Heavy Destroyers a bunch in the old codex, and they were disappointing then. They just weren't reliable enough to do damage, even with Preferred Enemy. Now that they're over twice as durable and have access to Stalkers and the Destroyer Cult as a whole, I think they're solidly not bad.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: I tried out Heavy Destroyers a bunch in the old codex, and they were disappointing then. They just weren't reliable enough to do damage, even with Preferred Enemy. Now that they're over twice as durable and have access to Stalkers and the Destroyer Cult as a whole, I think they're solidly not bad.
I've only run the Destroyer cult once, but it performed really well. Using a move, shoot, jetpack behind cover approach to stay at maximum range, it just evaporated a Black Templars army.
Heavies are very good, with their range and jsj they can pretty much avoid getting shot at.
Definitely a stand out unit in the codex. Another option to seriously consider is the new doomsday ark, at str10 stationary and a str8 ap3 moving shot, these things are actually good on paper. Now a lot of that depends on the tables you play on but they are an interesting unit for you to consider.
Punisher wrote: Heavies are very good, with their range and jsj they can pretty much avoid getting shot at.
Definitely a stand out unit in the codex. Another option to seriously consider is the new doomsday ark, at str10 stationary and a str8 ap3 moving shot, these things are actually good on paper. Now a lot of that depends on the tables you play on but they are an interesting unit for you to consider.
I only like the heavies. The regular destroyers are pants. When I self-ally or run a CAD on top of the Decurion I run Heavy Destroyers there but never the Destroyer Cult. If you compare the Destroyer Cult to other point sinks, like a Tau ally or a Nids ally you really get a sense of how it lags.
So we all know that wraithwing, canoptek harvest, decurian detachment, destroyer cult, warrior spam, etc...is good, but I was debating throwing my points into some unconventional models. What makes Doomsday Ark, Doomscythe, Monoliths, C'tan, and even some people have gone as far as saying the annihilation barge.
What truly makes these units terrible though, I have used a doomsday ark repeatedly one of my favorite time honored tactics is marching a squad of warriors down the middle of the map or an area that lacks cover, bait the enemy into line of sight and drop that delicious pie plate onto his units. The Doomscythe feels very...lack luster now, but I would still love to field them are they even remotely good anymore or does that small blast pretty much ruin them?
My Monolith sadly does not see much use, but the times I do field it have had great results, I make sure to clear out most of the melta or lance before deep striking that puppy right behind enemy lines and force my opponent to deal with it and an advancing army of death.
So while we all know what is blatantly good, can someone speak on more unconventional strategies using units that are often overlooked? I feel like everything has its place in this codex, but I would like to see some of these units really shine!
Can't think of many things it wouldn't have something to deal with.
col_impact wrote:I traced out a rock solid rules argument. Hack away at it if you can.
I don't know why you repeat that again and again. Your argument is far from rock solid, and it's been hacked to death. We've moved on. The rule is ambiguous. Start a thread in YMDC. The 'Overlord' wasn't an argument of any kind. It was a piece of a whole, showing how GW has worded the formations. They use plurals and singulars, and when they use plural of the model they also add the word unit, and when they use singular of the model they don't mention units.
This seems like a really great TAC list, lots of fast threats in the air and ground a Mawloc to dig out entrenched armour I like it.
And I also agree with col! there are rules to back up what he is saying and there are two instances of fluff which help to give me an impression of there intentions.
tetrisphreak wrote: Looking at it from a RAW perspective, I see Col_impact's point. Clearly.
Manufactorum Genestealer Brood - 5x units of genestealers. Restrictions: Genestealer broods in this formation may not add any additional genestealers. Pretty clear - I can take 5x5 broods, and add any other upgrades (including a broodlord), but no genestealers.
The canoptek harvest is missing this restriction. It would have been simple to add it in - and it was not. I think the INTENDED rule, for balance of the game if nothing else, was that the "1 canoptek spyder" was supposed to be it - no extras. However on the RAW side it most certainly can be upgraded to include 2 more spyders.
HIWPI - I'm not going to run more than 1 spyder per canoptek harvest. It's how i feel the formation is intended to be ran. However, should I face a necron player who puts 2 or 3 spyders in the formation, it's within the cut-and-dry rules for them to do so. It might leave a case of feel-badsies on the table, but dem's da rulez.
I am going to run it with one Spyder as well because of others possibly ambiguities (and I don't really rate the formation anyway) but I do think Col is correct on this one. Purely because he draws (at least) level in the RAW argument and has two separate sources to justify a RAI argument namely the fluff in the book and the picture in the white dwarf.
Games Workshop has a little box under the formation they use to write the unit restrictions in and have done so very clearly for every other formation. IMO the fact it's not a restriction in that little box is also telling, sure you can smack them for rules not being clear but for missing rules entirely? when does that happen?
Nightbringer is the best probably for Conclave , honestly you can't do much better that units got massive amount of fire power especially with the upgrade to Solar Staff, then you still got hit Nightbringer Ability, and the C'Tan powers.
Sabor wrote: So we all know that wraithwing, canoptek harvest, decurian detachment, destroyer cult, warrior spam, etc...is good, but I was debating throwing my points into some unconventional models. What makes Doomsday Ark, Doomscythe, Monoliths, C'tan, and even some people have gone as far as saying the annihilation barge.
What truly makes these units terrible though, I have used a doomsday ark repeatedly one of my favorite time honored tactics is marching a squad of warriors down the middle of the map or an area that lacks cover, bait the enemy into line of sight and drop that delicious pie plate onto his units. The Doomscythe feels very...lack luster now, but I would still love to field them are they even remotely good anymore or does that small blast pretty much ruin them?
My Monolith sadly does not see much use, but the times I do field it have had great results, I make sure to clear out most of the melta or lance before deep striking that puppy right behind enemy lines and force my opponent to deal with it and an advancing army of death.
So while we all know what is blatantly good, can someone speak on more unconventional strategies using units that are often overlooked? I feel like everything has its place in this codex, but I would like to see some of these units really shine!
I think the Mono is the best of all the units you listed there, IF the opponent doesn't have any melta it's super annoying for them having this huge LOS blocking terrain piece moving around the board. People seem to want to kill it even though it doesn't do THAT much damage. Imagine having two of these moving up the board with a Destroyer cult JSJ behind them? talk about board control! and then when you are in position pulling some Lychguard out or a big unit of warriors.
Or.. is it better to reserve almost all of your army and Alpha strike the monolith's in? I feel this is not a great strategy unless you add a comms relay because missing out on grabbing / manoeuvring for objectives on even just one turn puts you behind.
Sabor wrote: So we all know that wraithwing, canoptek harvest, decurian detachment, destroyer cult, warrior spam, etc...is good, but I was debating throwing my points into some unconventional models. What makes Doomsday Ark, Doomscythe, Monoliths, C'tan, and even some people have gone as far as saying the annihilation barge.
What truly makes these units terrible though, I have used a doomsday ark repeatedly one of my favorite time honored tactics is marching a squad of warriors down the middle of the map or an area that lacks cover, bait the enemy into line of sight and drop that delicious pie plate onto his units. The Doomscythe feels very...lack luster now, but I would still love to field them are they even remotely good anymore or does that small blast pretty much ruin them?
My Monolith sadly does not see much use, but the times I do field it have had great results, I make sure to clear out most of the melta or lance before deep striking that puppy right behind enemy lines and force my opponent to deal with it and an advancing army of death.
So while we all know what is blatantly good, can someone speak on more unconventional strategies using units that are often overlooked? I feel like everything has its place in this codex, but I would like to see some of these units really shine!
I think the Mono is the best of all the units you listed there, IF the opponent doesn't have any melta it's super annoying for them having this huge LOS blocking terrain piece moving around the board. People seem to want to kill it even though it doesn't do THAT much damage. Imagine having two of these moving up the board with a Destroyer cult JSJ behind them? talk about board control! and then when you are in position pulling some Lychguard out or a big unit of warriors.
Or.. is it better to reserve almost all of your army and Alpha strike the monolith's in? I feel this is not a great strategy unless you add a comms relay because missing out on grabbing / manoeuvring for objectives on even just one turn puts you behind.
That's a really good point with the JSJ and Mono idea.
Me I am curious about the Doomsday Ark. Anyone try that?
It's actually pretty cool and beefy it's cheap actually and other than having to not move it would be alright, plus it's got some additional beefiness due to the Gauss Flayers.
Hollismason wrote: It's actually pretty cool and beefy it's cheap actually and other than having to not move it would be alright, plus it's got some additional beefiness due to the Gauss Flayers.
See i loved it back in 5th now that it's buffed to strength 10 AP1 and when moving Strength 8 AP3 i don't see why you wouldn't bring it. Insta gibbing space marine squads from 24 inches away is nice. Then again I fight mainly space marine armies and scarcely fight anything below an armor save of 4+.
Don't see how the monolith isn't just a giant turd. It's so hard to deepstrike in reasonably terrain coverage since it has no ds protection. It dies very quickly to grav and melta shreds it like all vehicles.
200pts for a battle cannon just isn't worth it. Most of the time when I run it it dies turn 1 maybe 2 if it starts on, leaving the giant thing to attempt to deepstrike somewhere praying it doesn't scatter.
Maybe it's just my meta but grav cents are a thing here, and when they deploy 12inch forward there isn't much space for it to be useful without dying when they move forward and shoot it.
Punisher wrote: Don't see how the monolith isn't just a giant turd. It's so hard to deepstrike in reasonably terrain coverage since it has no ds protection. It dies very quickly to grav and melta shreds it like all vehicles.
200pts for a battle cannon just isn't worth it. Most of the time when I run it it dies turn 1 maybe 2 if it starts on, leaving the giant thing to attempt to deepstrike somewhere praying it doesn't scatter.
Maybe it's just my meta but grav cents are a thing here, and when they deploy 12inch forward there isn't much space for it to be useful without dying when they move forward and shoot it.
I am going to try the Living Tomb with double monoliths when i get the 2 monoliths. I think it can work well in that formation. It sure fences you in but it should be fun for an occasional whirl.
May as well just play the game 400 points less than your opponent, that's my opinion of not only the Monolith but the Obelisk as well. Just complete garbage units.
What are people's thoughts on a take all comers list? I want to just make a very balanced normal cad w/ maybe the Conclave of the burning one and that's it.
Decurion Flayed Ones spam with fire support is going to become a thing, I guarantee it. Spamming small 5-10 man squads of Flayed Ones, Infiltrating/Deep Striking/Outflanking them all over the board, and then backing it up with vehicles or Heavy Destroyers is going to be a thing.
Anything moving up the field has to contend with the FOs or concede map control to them. And they're dirt cheap, extremely durable for their points (75% chance to ignore anything that doesn't pierce their armor, for starters), and if the enemy wants to walk through midfield they have to avoid being charged. If they're focusing down the small, cheap squads of Flayed Ones up the board, things like Heavy Destroyers or even just spammed Warriors/Immortals can just sit back and shoot uninterrupted.
Non-Decurion FOs are not as good - losing the durability, can only bring 3 squads at max... they are a much lesser speedbump, but then you're not restricted elsewhere. I wish the Reclamation Legion wasn't so awkward.
Requizen wrote: Decurion Flayed Ones spam with fire support is going to become a thing, I guarantee it. Spamming small 5-10 man squads of Flayed Ones, Infiltrating/Deep Striking/Outflanking them all over the board, and then backing it up with vehicles or Heavy Destroyers is going to be a thing.
Anything moving up the field has to contend with the FOs or concede map control to them. And they're dirt cheap, extremely durable for their points (75% chance to ignore anything that doesn't pierce their armor, for starters), and if the enemy wants to walk through midfield they have to avoid being charged. If they're focusing down the small, cheap squads of Flayed Ones up the board, things like Heavy Destroyers or even just spammed Warriors/Immortals can just sit back and shoot uninterrupted.
Non-Decurion FOs are not as good - losing the durability, can only bring 3 squads at max... they are a much lesser speedbump, but then you're not restricted elsewhere. I wish the Reclamation Legion wasn't so awkward.
Agreed, pretty much the universal conclusion. Flayed One goodness has been discussed since the book dropped.
Well I think the decurion offers the best ability to do MSU which is really big right now mixed with large units of warriors and Tomb Blades it can work really well.
What do you think something like that would look like? I mean something like I think would be a good base, you absolutely need the Doom Scythe ignoring the ability to take a Nightscythe.
Hollismason wrote: May as well just play the game 400 points less than your opponent, that's my opinion of not only the Monolith but the Obelisk as well. Just complete garbage units.
What are people's thoughts on a take all comers list? I want to just make a very balanced normal cad w/ maybe the Conclave of the burning one and that's it.
Actually you can have some nifty shenanigans with the gate of infinity to move around the board between two different gates on two different monoliths. Gives good mobility to a blob of flayed ones or something else that needs it.
My thoughts on an all Necron TAC list actually involves the gauss pylons. Grab a unit of three for AA. Tomb blades for fast objective grabbers. Wraiths for counter assault, tarpit and a deathstar if you want to kit it out that way (not the most balanced but good IMO). A Ghost Ark for obsec and gauss spam, a night scythe for AA and late game objective grabs.
Here's an interesting list that I want to try out:
Orikan the Diviner
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb
Close to 1850. About 20 points under but can't quite fit in that seventh tomb blade :(
Orikan goes with destroyer lord and wraiths. And this is all aside from the thought that when forge world gets around to updating their books for seventh, I have little doubt that the pylons will be able to shoot both air and ground units at full ballistic skill. Ask yourself this: if that was the case currently, would it even be a question that this is a good TAC list?
Actually you can have some nifty shenanigans with the gate of infinity to move around the board between two different gates on two different monoliths. Gives good mobility to a blob of flayed ones or something else that needs it.
My thoughts on an all Necron TAC list actually involves the gauss pylons. Grab a unit of three for AA. Tomb blades for fast objective grabbers. Wraiths for counter assault, tarpit and a deathstar if you want to kit it out that way (not the most balanced but good IMO). A Ghost Ark for obsec and gauss spam, a night scythe for AA and late game objective grabs.
Here's an interesting list that I want to try out:
Orikan the Diviner
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb
Close to 1850. About 20 points under but can't quite fit in that seventh tomb blade :(
Orikan goes with destroyer lord and wraiths. And this is all aside from the thought that when forge world gets around to updating their books for seventh, I have little doubt that the pylons will be able to shoot both air and ground units at full ballistic skill. Ask yourself this: if that was the case currently, would it even be a question that this is a good TAC list?
Not to contradict, but do you mean Sentry Pylon with Gauss exterminators by any chance? Gauss pylons are apocalypse units that cost 420 points a pop. (Damn you 7th edition for making these things practically useless)
Here's a few list ideas for 1850 tournaments that only allow 2 sources.
This first list is similar to one I posted earlier (actually it might be the same). CAD with Destroyer Cult. Highly mobile. I switched out the Nightscythes for Stalkers to see how they do with all the heavy destroyers.
This next list is similar idea but in a Decurion for extra resiliency. It has a lot more synergy and I think is a better list than above. The Praetorians will hopefully make up for the loss of 6 heavy destroyers with their AP 2 shooting and the rerolls from the formation. Their primary targets will be 2+ armour save units. It might lack anti-armour to kill IKs though.
Decurion: Reclamation Legion: CCB - 135 (will mainly just provide the reroll buff and shoot stuff with guass cannon. Will equip with Hyperphase sword so he's not completely useless in combat.) 5x Immortals - 85 10x Warriors - 130 10x Warriors - 130 6x Tomb Blades w/ Neb, SV, Gauss - 132 6x Tomb Blades w/ Neb, SV, Gauss - 132 Destroyer Cult: Destroyer Lord w/ PS, WS, Nightmare Shroud - 190 3x Heavy Destroyers - 150 3x3 Destroyers - 360 Judicator Batallion: 5x Triarch Praetorians w/ Rods - 140 5x Triarch Praetorians w/ Rods - 140 1x Triarch Stalker - 125
This last list is probably the most competitive but also the most hated.
Hollismason wrote: May as well just play the game 400 points less than your opponent, that's my opinion of not only the Monolith but the Obelisk as well. Just complete garbage units.
What are people's thoughts on a take all comers list? I want to just make a very balanced normal cad w/ maybe the Conclave of the burning one and that's it.
Actually you can have some nifty shenanigans with the gate of infinity to move around the board between two different gates on two different monoliths. Gives good mobility to a blob of flayed ones or something else that needs it.
My thoughts on an all Necron TAC list actually involves the gauss pylons. Grab a unit of three for AA. Tomb blades for fast objective grabbers. Wraiths for counter assault, tarpit and a deathstar if you want to kit it out that way (not the most balanced but good IMO). A Ghost Ark for obsec and gauss spam, a night scythe for AA and late game objective grabs.
Here's an interesting list that I want to try out:
Orikan the Diviner
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb
Close to 1850. About 20 points under but can't quite fit in that seventh tomb blade :(
Orikan goes with destroyer lord and wraiths. And this is all aside from the thought that when forge world gets around to updating their books for seventh, I have little doubt that the pylons will be able to shoot both air and ground units at full ballistic skill. Ask yourself this: if that was the case currently, would it even be a question that this is a good TAC list?
Destroyer Lord - scythe, shifter, shroud
3xDestroyers- 1 heavy
3xDestroyers- 1 heavy
3xDestroyers- 1 heavy
4xWraith- T.Beamers
3xScarabs
1xSpyder- beamer
Comes in at just shy of 1500pts. Also don't know whats better the 3+ save for tomb blades or the beamer on the spyder. The save is useful but without the beamer it just feels like the spyder doesn't do much.
Close to 1850. About 20 points under but can't quite fit in that seventh tomb blade :(
Orikan goes with destroyer lord and wraiths. And this is all aside from the thought that when forge world gets around to updating their books for seventh, I have little doubt that the pylons will be able to shoot both air and ground units at full ballistic skill. Ask yourself this: if that was the case currently, would it even be a question that this is a good TAC list?
Like it, have 3 x painted Pylons that I am yet to actually field but am busting to try. If you want to squeeze some points out take a whip coil of each lead wraith in your unit because that guy is likely never to cross the field alive anyway! gives you enough for another blade maybe.
Someone was mentioning Flayed Ones earlier, I've been trying to work out a list with Imo in a Decurion because MTC, 4+ RP, with +1 to reserves and reroll to ds FOs sounds like a pretty solid little unit.
The challenge is, as far as I can tell by the rules, you have to bring the RC in for Imo. That means you are looking at a minimum of 790 points minimum before upgrades. My thinking is grab an NS for the RC + Olord prereq, throw some Warscythes and a few other upgrades on them, and slap them with either the Decurion Immortals or Warriors.
From there you can spam in super FOs to your hearts contents. Also, with Imo dropping out of the NS, you stand a pretty good chance of capturing a few of those squads in the reroll to 1 RP bonus bubble.
Not sure what else the list needs to cap it off? I've played around with a Triarch formation with VB/PC TPs or a Conclave, both of to cover the FOs weaknesses.
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Therion wrote: So what's people's opinion on the Heavy slots? If you were running 3 units of Wraiths, and had 140-170 points to spend on a single heavy choice, what would that be? This is in a CAD by the way.
A unit of 3 Heavy Destroyers seems nice just on their own. Anyone tried them yet? Because of preferred enemy they're really reliable in what they do, they got a long range (as far as Necron guns usually go) and they can jump shoot jump. The 25 points per T5 3+ SV 5+ RP wound is great value when you consider the weaponry and mobility.
Man I really, really like Heavy D's in this edition, Therion. They are pretty brutal on their own, and can pair nicely with Stalkers for a brutal alpha strike.
I've got a list that maxes them out at 18 that I'm playing around with as a concept. Also, although I'm a bit meh on normal Destroyers outside of the formation, inside the formation they are pretty stout. Bump up to about half an HP per base in shooting vehicles, not too mention ratcheting up their MC and infantry shooting a notch.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Someone was mentioning Flayed Ones earlier, I've been trying to work out a list with Imo in a Decurion because MTC, 4+ RP, with +1 to reserves and reroll to ds FOs sounds like a pretty solid little unit.
The challenge is, as far as I can tell by the rules, you have to bring the RC in for Imo. That means you are looking at a minimum of 790 points minimum before upgrades. My thinking is grab an NS for the RC + Olord prereq, throw some Warscythes and a few other upgrades on them, and slap them with either the Decurion Immortals or Warriors.
First thing I would ask is how many units of Flayed Ones are you bringing, and is it more cost effective to add Crpyteks to there units instead for the +1RP? and a comms relay for the reserves?
I'm rolling around with the idea as many as 8, so probably not. Plus, getting crypteks into FO squads is a bit problematic as they can't DS, Infiltrate, or Outlflank.
I am beginning to think that the Decurion is almost designed to require an Ally, and in that way get people to buy more models and expand collections.
The Decurion is strong but it has weaknesses that are best shored up by allying to Tau or Nids and I am sure IK, CD, and even Orks provide some good ally options, and that people will eventually move into allying to keep competitive.
That's been a trend for a while in 40K and the new Necron 7th edition codex is no exception. Its been a strong trend since formations were a thing. Necrons is no longer a standalone codex, at least not if you want to run an optimal list. Not only can Orks bring in Canoptek Harvest formations easily but eventually we will be optimizing our own lists with stuff not Necron.
Punisher wrote: Don't see how the monolith isn't just a giant turd. It's so hard to deepstrike in reasonably terrain coverage since it has no ds protection. It dies very quickly to grav and melta shreds it like all vehicles.
200pts for a battle cannon just isn't worth it. Most of the time when I run it it dies turn 1 maybe 2 if it starts on, leaving the giant thing to attempt to deepstrike somewhere praying it doesn't scatter.
Maybe it's just my meta but grav cents are a thing here, and when they deploy 12inch forward there isn't much space for it to be useful without dying when they move forward and shoot it.
I am going to try the Living Tomb with double monoliths when i get the 2 monoliths. I think it can work well in that formation. It sure fences you in but it should be fun for an occasional whirl.
Another thing I think is doable with the Living Tomb formation is against a lot of armies just parking the Monoliths and the Obelisk on objectives and racking up 50% maelstrom points with little effort and zero effort objective points at game end.
The pure Necron lists, even with the 2 sources rule, aren't bad still. For example, a standard CAD Wraithwing + Destroyer Cult is a strong army. I've also seen CADs with 2 units of Wraiths + Canoptek Harvest. The latter can also have a strong Spyder presence.
In short, I wouldn't go as far as saying Necrons arent a standalone army. I think that's hyperbole. They're easily capable of winning a tournament with Necron CAD+Necron formation or Decurion+Necron CAD combos. They already have won quite a few tournaments all over the world with armies like this.
The allies probably make it even better, or atleast different, but that's the same for everyone.
Zimko wrote: Here's a few list ideas for 1850 tournaments that only allow 2 sources.
I noticed you have zero Wraiths in all of your lists. You don't like the units or you truly think you can be more competitive with just Tomb Blades and Destroyers? I think skipping on the real assault threat available to you is a mistake.
It occurs to me looking through the codex that the reason that Tomb Blades are priced so cheaply compared to Immortals, when they seem much better on paper, is that
1) Immortals can use Night Scythes and Eternity Gates
2) The Tomb Blade model is about 2 times as large as the Immortal one, making it significantly easier to hit with blast weapons and much harder to get into cover.
Alcibiades wrote: It occurs to me looking through the codex that the reason that Tomb Blades are priced so cheaply compared to Immortals, when they seem much better on paper, is that
1) Immortals can use Night Scythes and Eternity Gates
2) The Tomb Blade model is about 2 times as large as the Immortal one, making it significantly easier to hit with blast weapons and much harder to get into cover.
It's all about Ignore Cover ladies and gentlemen. That USR is the single most important USR in the 40k meta.
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Therion wrote: The pure Necron lists, even with the 2 sources rule, aren't bad still. For example, a standard CAD Wraithwing + Destroyer Cult is a strong army. I've also seen CADs with 2 units of Wraiths + Canoptek Harvest. The latter can also have a strong Spyder presence.
In short, I wouldn't go as far as saying Necrons arent a standalone army. I think that's hyperbole. They're easily capable of winning a tournament with Necron CAD+Necron formation or Decurion+Necron CAD combos. They already have won quite a few tournaments all over the world with armies like this.
The allies probably make it even better, or atleast different, but that's the same for everyone.
Zimko wrote: Here's a few list ideas for 1850 tournaments that only allow 2 sources.
I noticed you have zero Wraiths in all of your lists. You don't like the units or you truly think you can be more competitive with just Tomb Blades and Destroyers? I think skipping on the real assault threat available to you is a mistake.
I agree with your argument when we are talking about Necron lists that are mostly or predominantly Necron CAD. If a Necron list is predominantly Decurion then I think it winds up being just flatly more points efficient to ally in a non Necron source than to self-ally or try to go with a small Necron CAD since small Necron CADs don't offer as much as nonNecron for cheap as nonNecron sources (compare what you get cheaply with Nids or Tau or Orks or Eldar). You just wind up more for your points if you go with a compact Tau ally or CAD for example than a compact Necron ally or CAD. Just an observation. And I am talking about optimization, not tourney winning capability. Even though a measure of optimization weighs In on the performance of a list at a tourney, players can win with unoptimal lists, sometimes lists that are profoundly less than optimal. They just win on player strength or lucking into good matchups for that lopsided list.
ShadarLogoth wrote: I think one thing you are failing to consider is taking pure Decurion with no additional detachments outside of it.
It's quite doable with the formation options, and there's not too many wholes you can't cover.
Well, I think the Decurion has a problem with dealing with AA in particular. It certainly is possible dealing with it in house in the Decurion, more NS, etc. But you are having to deal with the dirt cheap and sometimes better options offered by Tau ally, Nid ally, Ork ally, etc.
I am not saying you might be correct in your conclusion, but have you first gone through the step of weighing the pros and cons of going in and out of the Necron offerings?. I am doing that now, and I am seeing more point efficiency at a small compact toolbox grab with a compact non Necron ally. Again, I am not saying you could not be ultimately correct, I am just wondering if you have actually gone through the process of weighing different options against each other. Your opinion is much more valid if you have indeed gone through that process. If you haven't already, fire up Battlescribe or whatever and compare point totals. The Decurion stuff at handling AA for example is much more expensive than a non-Necron ally grab. Unless you are being a purist who wants all Necron, and that is fine if you are, I think its fair to do a point efficiency analysis over those last bit of points that shore up the weaknesses of your list and whether you simply get more bang for your buck with a Necron offering or a non Necron offering (look closely at Tau or Nids which I think are the strongest alternate offerings). Let me know your findings. I am curious what other player think on this issue which has come to my mind after playing with lists with allies. It seems better to go outside of the Necrons for that last little bit of weakness covering. Alternate opinions? But please go through the exercise I have laid out of actually comparing Necron and nonNecron sources with Battlescribe or some list creation tool.
Honestly the major power of the Decurion is in the reclamation legion itself.
If you're trying to minimise the core, you're honestly probably better off just making an all-formation or small CAD and multi formation list, because if you're treating it as a tax, it will be one.
You have in the legion a large, durable, space filling gunline, and ought to be looking to maximise those strengths then use a few well chosen auxiliaries to help you troubleshoot priority targets and take control of the board to secure against being undermined by maelstrom.
Zimko wrote: Here's a few list ideas for 1850 tournaments that only allow 2 sources.
I noticed you have zero Wraiths in all of your lists. You don't like the units or you truly think you can be more competitive with just Tomb Blades and Destroyers? I think skipping on the real assault threat available to you is a mistake.
I like Wraiths but they're in an awkward position in this codex. In a CAD they share a slot with Tomb Blades, who are much more point efficient now. Wraiths lack decent ranged weaponry (still talking CAD) and their offensive capability in assault isn't actually that great. They were strong before because a Destroyer Lord could join them and give them a Warscythe and mindshackle for offense. That might still be possible but a bad assault move roll could lead the Destroyer Lord too far behind. Now they're just a tarpit unit.
In a Harvest, they're much more effective. They can get a nice ranged weapon and still charge after shooting it AND they're even more resilient. The problem is you're investing at least 230 pts for 3 Wraiths +30 for the useful weapons. You know what 10 Tomb Blades costs? 220 pts.
So knowing that their primary role is to be a tarpit, then you have to consider why you need a tarpit. To prevent deathstars and other melee units from reaching your stuff. But if all your stuff is mobile (destroyers and tomb blades) then what's the point?
Wraiths are cool, but I don't think they're competitive anymore.
Valek wrote: Yup, lol 18 wraiths not competitive, 1 april is quick this year...
the only thing you can say right now is that there are other potential competitive builds.
Play some games with 18 wraiths and let us know how they do.
I will concede the fact that a few wraiths as a tarpit can be competitive. I was just explaining why I didn't put wraiths in my lists and why I don't think they're that great this codex.
ShadarLogoth wrote: I think one thing you are failing to consider is taking pure Decurion with no additional detachments outside of it.
It's quite doable with the formation options, and there's not too many wholes you can't cover.
Well, I think the Decurion has a problem with dealing with AA in particular.
From what I've been reading, the idea behind a full Decurion is just to be so unkillable on the ground that you can ignore the flyers all game and wipe out any units that try to get to the objectives. Personally I don't like playing armies that can't deal with some unit type in any other way except ignoring it, but I can certainly see that the idea could work. You can make a Necron army that doesn't really have any good targets for Flyrant shooting for example. They just do a bunch of S6 shots that wound easily but get bounced by strong armour saves and 4+ RPs with rerolls. Flyrants are pretty decent vs CAD Wraiths (3 Flyrants can nuke out 3 full units of Wraiths over the course of a game), but Harvest Wraiths are another story. Same with Decurion Tomb Blades, and the infantry.
Taking 18 Wraiths may not be competitive but MSU with the Decurion can be, the problem is that you have to somehow get anti-AA into the army and that can be difficult with the Decurion because you're dedicating 320 points to just Doom Scythes.
I personally though think you should be maxing you're units out with the Decurion because the Warriors are insanely good and so are Immortals as well as taking multiple MSU.
Hollismason wrote: Taking 18 Wraiths may not be competitive but MSU with the Decurion can be, the problem is that you have to somehow get anti-AA into the army and that can be difficult with the Decurion because you're dedicating 320 points to just Doom Scythes.
It's not hard. You can ally a Tau or a Tyranid CAD and get your AA from there. Tau are a bit less killy but bring useful obsec units, while Nids are just dirty otherwise.
Apologies if you were thinking about the AA in a single detachment army (pure Decurion). In that case refer to my post above (best tactic might be to avoid air units altogether and just focus on your strengths).
Your second list looks good, although despite the 'hype' behind Flayed Ones, I'd probably go with something else, like a Destroyer Cult. The mandatory Overlord could also be Zahndrekh, since he's just 150 points and clearly has a lot of free stuff on him.
I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.
The Destroyer Lord rides with the Wraiths. Everything else is just shooty, fast and ridiculously hard to kill. It's got 13 independently operating units, and 2 heroes.
I like that second list Hollismason. It would be a good list to be very aggressive with. I might would consider taking out the Nightscythes for something else, maybe more tomb blades.
gwarsh41 wrote: I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.
Ignore Cover with an Aegis defense line and Icarus Lascannon. Park the TBs there to shoot it until you need to grab an objective. Then man it with another backfield unit, like Warriors with an overlord when they move out.
In a Decurion the Destroyers are crazy value. They already re-roll 1's to hit, but now in a Cult they get full re-rolls for wound and armour penetration rolls, and move through cover. It's also noteworty that the Destroyer Lord also gets these benefits.
On top of it they get the 4+ RP. It's hard to argue against them, especially as in my opinion the Wraiths really benefit from the Destroyer Lord doing some heavy lifting in combat.
Destroyers cost 20 points per wound. It's a move through cover T5 LD10 Space Marine with a 4+ 'FNP' that works against everything, re-rolls 1's to hit and all rolls to wound or to penetrate, moves on a jet pack and carries a heavy weapon that can be shot on the move at full BS and can mass murder Marines but also kill Land Raiders. If it's not worth bringing at that cost, then it will never be.
changemod wrote: I'm guessing large amounts of strength 6 rending aren't enough for some people because that's not quite Deathstar levels of damage output.
That's why you put a warscythe D lord in there with Orikan or a veiltek. Plenty of killy.
Wraiths are a light-medium infantry grinder. Are Khorne dogs a good assault unit? Absolutely. Now imagine if they struck at initiative while charging through terrain, were T5, had rending and were able to have their 3++ without extra reliance on Grimoire, etc. yeah I wouldn't take any of those in a competitive list either.
Wraiths can tarpit, do counter-assault, do regular assault and just grind through bodies without a care in the world. The biggest asset is their cheap cost for the kit they have.
gwarsh41 wrote: I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.
Gauss all the way imo. The particle beamer isn't Twin-linked, and against a decent enemy you shouldn't be able to score more than two hits per marker anyhow. The main benefit of the gauss blaster is the ap4, alllowing you to ignore the armour of Fire warriors, AM grenadier veterans, ork 'ard boyz and bikers, heck even loads of necron units. So while the blasts might be slightly more killy against hordes of 5+ or worse armour saves and AV10-11 vehicles, in the end the overall utility of gauss and the fact that it still performs very well versus the mentioned targets makes it the go to for me.
gwarsh41 wrote: I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.
Gauss all the way imo. The particle beamer isn't Twin-linked, and against a decent enemy you shouldn't be able to score more than two hits per marker anyhow. The main benefit of the gauss blaster is the ap4, alllowing you to ignore the armour of Fire warriors, AM grenadier veterans, ork 'ard boyz and bikers, heck even loads of necron units. So while the blasts might be slightly more killy against hordes of 5+ or worse armour saves and AV10-11 vehicles, in the end the overall utility of gauss and the fact that it still performs very well versus the mentioned targets makes it the go to for me.
Think about matchups though. Arming one unit with S6 ignore cover blasts to make it a different kind of threat to different types of units will pay dividends to you when you really need a unit like that (Enemy runs a Scarab farm?), instead of just having 'a little bit more of the same'. You probably already have a ton of AP4 from elsewhere.
gwarsh41 wrote: I agree on ignore cover being a mandatory upgrade on tomb blades. After that it is just a question between the blasts and gauss. Gauss will most likely have more overall use, shooting at those pesky skimmers and whatnot, however cheap S6 blasts are pretty nice as well. Tomb blades can really stack up the wounds with them.
Gauss all the way imo. The particle beamer isn't Twin-linked, and against a decent enemy you shouldn't be able to score more than two hits per marker anyhow. The main benefit of the gauss blaster is the ap4, alllowing you to ignore the armour of Fire warriors, AM grenadier veterans, ork 'ard boyz and bikers, heck even loads of necron units. So while the blasts might be slightly more killy against hordes of 5+ or worse armour saves and AV10-11 vehicles, in the end the overall utility of gauss and the fact that it still performs very well versus the mentioned targets makes it the go to for me.
If you're taking 3 units of Tomb Blades, having one of them with blast weapons is a good idea. Without that, then your opponent has no reason to spread out and can maximize his shooting by clumping up without worrying about losing a bunch of models to templates. If they don't spread out then you can make them pay for it.
In my meta running 18 wraiths makes everyone not want to play anymore. Everyone says they are just tarpits, but if you run it trust me you will understand. I run this list and have won 2 local tournies with it.
CAD Barge lord
Warriors x 10
Ghost Ark
Warriors x 10
Ghost ark
Triarch stalker x 1
Twin link heavy gauss
Wraiths w/ Whips 3x6
2 Doomsday arks
Death marks 2x5
I have the doomsday arks sit in the back firing downfeild, and the ghost arks with obsec move behind the wraith wing taking objectives with the wraiths pull forward taking the majority of the shots. The stalker is there cause i like stalkers, but if I wanted I could go 3 Heavy destroyers I could. and the barge lord i use for a shooty back field to protect the doomsday arks and the deathmarks are counter deepstrikers able to pop drop pod meltas etc and fliers dont bother me I control the ground so much they have nothing left to take objectives with.
Like I said I have had nothing but success with this. Let me know how you all think of this and what would you change if anything. Thanks!
The Destroyer Lord rides with the Wraiths. Everything else is just shooty, fast and ridiculously hard to kill. It's got 13 independently operating units, and 2 heroes.
I think this is a really good list and better than what I posted, for some reason I always forget to swap for Nemesor. However my big problem is it has no AA at all. That'd be my only issue with it. That and I'd rather go with Transdimensional beamers on the Wraiths, because their a really great weapon in that formation.
So only changes I'd make is going with 5 Wraiths w/ Transdimensional Beamers, then be ten points over!!
Hollismason wrote: However my big problem is it has no AA at all.
Yea it doesn't have dedicated AA, but a few units there can whittle a solo flyer down if they want. Gauss, twin-linked and the ability to otherwise re-roll hits will lead to hits.
Now the question is, what kind of flyer are you worried about? The answer probably is Flyrants and flying Daemons, and there's very few solutions to those. Flyers of your own aren't solutions to them -- Flyrants take care of your flyers much better than your flyers take care of them. So the answer really is either bring your own Flyrants, or take some Tau allies with a ton of skyfire and a fortification, or just realise that your army is so resilient that the flyers will be hard pressed to earn their points back if they swoop all game while you just play the objectives and wipe out the enemy ground presence.
Yeah I think people make good points about just not bringing or bringing 1 Flyer and focus on the ground game.
Tomb Blades are so resilient to Flyrants it's not even funny. Flying Daemon Princes can summon but not a lot of firepower. They usually rely on a 2+ Jink which Tomb Blades ignore cover so you can actually down a Flying Nurgle Daemon Prince eventually...
Flyers like Storm Talons etc.. are difficult though.
I still think MSU is the way to go though with the Decurion, just mass numbers of units from Canoptek Harvets, TombBlades, and the Destroyer Cult.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I think people make good points about just not bringing or bringing 1 Flyer and focus on the ground game.
Tomb Blades are so resilient to Flyrants it's not even funny. Flying Daemon Princes can summon but not a lot of firepower. They usually rely on a 2+ Jink which Tomb Blades ignore cover so you can actually down a Flying Nurgle Daemon Prince eventually...
Flyers like Storm Talons etc.. are difficult though.
I still think MSU is the way to go though with the Decurion, just mass numbers of units from Canoptek Harvets, TombBlades, and the Destroyer Cult.
Yep, a single Flyrant will kill about 0.8 Tomb Blades per turn by shooting assuming the re-roll. So, overall, they won't do much.
It's a shame that the Decurion doesn't have an option for a fortification. A Tomb Blade manning the Icarus Lascannon is a pretty nice way to cause a grounding test on a FMC or straight up kill a flyer (you can even get that guy a re-roll 1's to hit from Zandrekhs traits), but it requires an allied CAD.
So what to swap out instead of fliers if you are just ignoring them completely as I think the Decurion lacks serious firepower and one of the few ways to get it is probably the Annihilation Nexus.
Hollismason wrote: So what to swap out instead of fliers if you are just ignoring them completely as I think the Decurion lacks serious firepower and one of the few ways to get it is probably the Annihilation Nexus.
I don't think that Decurion list I posted lacks anything at all and nothing needs to be swapped out. YMMV.
I'm going to be the lone voice in defense of the underdog and say that I think that TL tesla carbines are viable for tomb blades as a skirmish unit. That's because, given their speed, the tomb blades can pretty much guarantee that they will always be around 24" away, meaning that they will always be firing at full effectiveness and any rapid-firing enemy will be at half.
It all depends on the opponent. Tesla is only slightly better than Guass at max range if the target has 3+ armour or better. If they have 4+ armour or worse then you're gonna want the S5 AP4 Guass, even if you're not in rapid fire range.
Then there's the issue of not being able to contribute to killing mid-AV vehicles with Tesla.
Against fliers the Guass wins out because Tesla doesn't give you anything extra when snap shooting.
There's just so many situations where Guass is better that it makes it hard to choose tesla over Guass.
Literally the only reason for tomb blades to take tesla is because it's last edition and you feel like jinking instead of finding real cover to lurk in.
changemod wrote: Literally the only reason for tomb blades to take tesla is because it's last edition and you feel like jinking instead of finding real cover to lurk in.
Well, that and the reason that I just gave.
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Zimko wrote: It all depends on the opponent. Tesla is only slightly better than Guass at max range if the target has 3+ armour or better. If they have 4+ armour or worse then you're gonna want the S5 AP4 Guass, even if you're not in rapid fire range.
Then there's the issue of not being able to contribute to killing mid-AV vehicles with Tesla.
Against fliers the Guass wins out because Tesla doesn't give you anything extra when snap shooting.
There's just so many situations where Guass is better that it makes it hard to choose tesla over Guass.
The point here is not the killing power of Tesla, _but that it allows you to minimize the opponent's ability to do damage to you_. Because he is out of RF range, but your shooting is unaffected.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And you're unchargeable to boot!
changemod wrote: Literally the only reason for tomb blades to take tesla is because it's last edition and you feel like jinking instead of finding real cover to lurk in.
Well, that and the reason that I just gave.
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Zimko wrote: It all depends on the opponent. Tesla is only slightly better than Guass at max range if the target has 3+ armour or better. If they have 4+ armour or worse then you're gonna want the S5 AP4 Guass, even if you're not in rapid fire range.
Then there's the issue of not being able to contribute to killing mid-AV vehicles with Tesla.
Against fliers the Guass wins out because Tesla doesn't give you anything extra when snap shooting.
There's just so many situations where Guass is better that it makes it hard to choose tesla over Guass.
The point here is not the killing power of Tesla, _but that it allows you to minimize the opponent's ability to do damage to you_. Because he is out of RF range, but your shooting is unaffected.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And you're unchargeable to boot!
I think it's a valid point and will certainly come into play in many matchups. I personally favor gauss because of it's I can do something to everything feature when it's on a Tomb Blade, so broader use. It certainly is doable to have a unit of tomb blades with TL tesla for engaging units at range.
Are all identical. So there's really no reason why you can't write one list and swap out for individual matchups. Beamerscope for huge hordes with no save to speak of, Beamervanes for Marine Equivalents who didn't take many vehicles, Gauss/Vanes/Scope everywhere else.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: You're taking Tesla guns, because they fire an impressive one shot at max range, over Gauss, which only fire a miserable one shot at max range?
Tesla has an average of 1 hit per shot at any range, whereas Gauss has ,66 hits.
That was the whole point of Tesla when it was invented -- it is superior generally at 12"-24" range, and 5th ed. Necrons were designed as a 12"-24" shooting army, which they still are to some extent. Tesla was not invented because of snap shots and overwatch.
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Tyran wrote: At range, I believe the Particle Beamer is better than the Tesla.
I think that's generally true, with the standard downsides of blast weapons for the beamers (no snap shots).
Personally I have a harassment unit equipped with 2x tesla and 3x beamers. Admittedly this is partly because the tesla tomb blades are by far the coolest-looking variant.
D00MsDAY333 wrote: In my meta running 18 wraiths makes everyone not want to play anymore. Everyone says they are just tarpits, but if you run it trust me you will understand. I run this list and have won 2 local tournies with it.
CAD Barge lord
Warriors x 10
Ghost Ark
Warriors x 10
Ghost ark
Triarch stalker x 1
Twin link heavy gauss
Wraiths w/ Whips 3x6
2 Doomsday arks
Death marks 2x5
I have the doomsday arks sit in the back firing downfeild, and the ghost arks with obsec move behind the wraith wing taking objectives with the wraiths pull forward taking the majority of the shots. The stalker is there cause i like stalkers, but if I wanted I could go 3 Heavy destroyers I could. and the barge lord i use for a shooty back field to protect the doomsday arks and the deathmarks are counter deepstrikers able to pop drop pod meltas etc and fliers dont bother me I control the ground so much they have nothing left to take objectives with.
Like I said I have had nothing but success with this. Let me know how you all think of this and what would you change if anything. Thanks!
Yeah I've encountered some similar attitudes towards wraiths, which I do understand. Stalkers are fine, and actually quite resilient. I would probably try it out with the heat ray...it is called a heat ray right lol? The 2 shot melta. I think you're probably lacking a bit in AT. In building this list, I would try and ignore the wraiths' contributions for as long as possible. Meaning, try to build a list that can do everything (or almost everything) without them, so that they don't have to try and fulfill 6 different roles in your army. You only have 3 squads.
I'm not sold on the Doomsday Ark. I feel like any opponent worth his salt is just going to make the thing snapfire each turn. Plus once you own it once, that's pretty much it for the Ark. It may still live for a biit but it's going to be jinking it's pants off. Maybe include some dedicated AA? Or some tomb blades for cheap maelstrom/late game objective cappers
I just don't see any reason to have to bikes fill your tesla role.
Since you pretty much need to run 5 bikes minimum to keep the unit effective, then add the upgrades... wouldn't you be better off just using an annihilation barge at that point?
omerakk wrote: I just don't see any reason to have to bikes fill your tesla role.
Since you pretty much need to run 5 bikes minimum to keep the unit effective, then add the upgrades... wouldn't you be better off just using an annihilation barge at that point?
There is no Tesla role? There's no law saying you should have so-and-so much Tesla that you have to fill with some unit. The point is that Tesla (pr the Particle Beamer) allows bikes to stay out of RF range of the enemy, and being fast units they can choose their distance, thus minimizing danger to themselves. Which is... more or less what Tesla was originally invented to do in the first place before the edition change to 6th made it interact oddly with the new snap shot rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Remember, Tesla had 2 functions for an army that was designed as short-range shooting but weak in melee and hence vulnerable to charges: 1) it allowed firing over 12" while moving (made pointless by the changes to RF in 6th ed.) and 2) it gave you a 12"-24" range in which you were probably superior to enemy infantry. You were not supposed to close, as you have to with a RF weapon to maximize effect -- you were supposed to keep the enemy at a 24" range so he couldn't charge you.
Actually, there is a Tesla role, which you just explained: a need for midrange firepower while keeping out of the dangers of short range. Even now, a barge does this job better than the bikes.
Bikes are best for the no cover attack, anti-horde beamer, grabbing objectives, or getting rapid fire glancing hits on vehicles. The tesla version of the bike isn't helping with any of that.
Also, there's no law saying you always have to have your bikes in rapid fire range with the gauss load out. You can just as easily fire your single shots from max range and keep yourself safe. Then, later in the game, you can push them up for the rapid fire ability to help finish off a unit when it is safer.
It just seems like a waste to give up the viability of the beamer or gauss for a weapon that is only marginally effective in a smaller amount of circumstances and has a better option (barge) which was built for that midrange ability.
omerakk wrote: Actually, there is a Tesla role, which you just explained: a need for midrange firepower while keeping out of the dangers of short range. Even now, a barge does this job better than the bikes.
Bikes are best for the no cover attack, anti-horde beamer, grabbing objectives, or getting rapid fire glancing hits on vehicles. The tesla version of the bike isn't helping with any of that.
Also, there's no law saying you always have to have your bikes in rapid fire range with the gauss load out. You can just as easily fire your single shots from max range and keep yourself safe. Then, later in the game, you can push them up for the rapid fire ability to help finish off a unit when it is safer.
It just seems like a waste to give up the viability of the beamer or gauss for a weapon that is only marginally effective in a smaller amount of circumstances and has a better option (barge) which was built for that midrange ability.
Barges are not vulnerable to RF weapons at all, though (though they are to being charged).
Really now that I think of it the prime platform for tesla carbines is Immortals (the unit that they were probably invented for), because not only does it keep you out of RF range, it keeps you out of the range iof melta guns, which will ID Immortals.
IMO, the best choice for immortals is leaving them on the shelf and picking tomb blades instead.
Then again, depends on if you're running a decurion or not. If you do, reserve a 5-man squad and pour the rest of your points into TBs. If it's a cad, I suppose you need the troops, but you'd still preferably keep them in a NS.
TompiQ wrote: IMO, the best choice for immortals is leaving them on the shelf and picking tomb blades instead.
A squad of 5 Immortals is your cheapest troop choice for ObSec at 85pts. Use them to hold onto an objective and forget about them. 3+ armor with 4+ RP makes them pretty durable.
My opponents are usually distracted by my much more killy units that they tend to go the game unmolested, while holding objectives in my deployment zone.
TompiQ wrote: IMO, the best choice for immortals is leaving them on the shelf and picking tomb blades instead.
A squad of 5 Immortals is your cheapest troop choice for ObSec at 85pts. Use them to hold onto an objective and forget about them. 3+ armor with 4+ RP makes them pretty durable.
My opponents are usually distracted by my much more killy units that they tend to go the game unmolested, while holding objectives in my deployment zone.
That is if you run a CAD. I prefer the decurion myself. And if they're unmolested while holding objectives, do you really need ObSec?
TompiQ wrote: IMO, the best choice for immortals is leaving them on the shelf and picking tomb blades instead.
A squad of 5 Immortals is your cheapest troop choice for ObSec at 85pts. Use them to hold onto an objective and forget about them. 3+ armor with 4+ RPmakes them pretty durable.
My opponents are usually distracted by my much more killy units that they tend to go the game unmolested, while holding objectives in my deployment zone.
That is if you run a CAD. I prefer the decurion myself. And if they're unmolested while holding objectives, do you really need ObSec?
You said the best use was on the shelf. I was pointing out the uses for them, CAD or Decurion.
You missed the sublte hint that I'm actually using in a Decurion myself, but I did feel it was worth pointing out that they are the cheapest method Necrons have for aquiring ObSec. I acutally had to buy Immortals and tomb Blades to field the Decurion. In general I prefer warriors over Immortals.
No but it erases really annoying units that some rely on, plus their just good at moving up to 12" getting in rapid fire range and getting rid of that OBSEC Drop Pod , etc..
That's what I mean though. I'm more convinced now with the last couple of game to just completely ignore fliers.
Hollismason wrote: No but it erases really annoying units that some rely on, plus their just good at moving up to 12" getting in rapid fire range and getting rid of that OBSEC Drop Pod , etc..
That's what I mean though. I'm more convinced now with the last couple of game to just completely ignore fliers.
I want to be able to say that this is a viable tactic but it just doesn't seem like one. What if you encounter an extreme air firepower army, like Tyranids can be for example? Now, you can probably focus on just murdering everything that isn't a Flyrant over the course of the game; however you're going to be eating eGrubs and like 220 HITS from the devours of 4 Flyrants over the course of 5 turns. You'd better hope that the game ends on 5 because even Necrons aren't so resilient as to take another 45 or so hits each game turn. That results in like 38 wounds for T4. I know we're durable, but 38 wounds a turn means 10 dead warriors, even in Decurion. You'd need a few more to kill 10 immortals. Tomb blades? It'll kill about 5 since they're T5.
My point is that some armies pack a ton of firepower that really should not be just ignored if you want to win. I think I'm going to try out the Gauss pylons and see how they serve for AA. 6 las cannon shots a turn with Skyfire ought to do some work. Even a Flyrant is going to have to make a lot of jink saves, and then pray he doesn't fall into the waiting arms of my wraiths.
I stack heavy on the Tomb Blades, I had some older destroyers I've been using as suitable substitutes, I will not take less than 10, they're that crazy good. They're insane in the Decurion. I usually am now taking 1 flyer in my Competitive Decurion lists and just going with MSU from Wraiths and the Destroyer Cult.
Also stopped just taking the base 3 Scarabs and going with 4 with the Decurion and going with 2 Squads of 3 Wraiths instead because having 6 Wraiths 8 Scarabs and 2 Spyders, gives you 12 Scarabs on turn 2 and you can actually get a first turn charge off with the Scarabs which is surprising as gak if someone does not catch it and sets up to prevent it.
Using the 2 Spyders you just move forward with them and add the Scarabs to the front of the Scarabs outside of the deployment zone allowing you to move them forward 12" which means their 8 inches away from the front of the deployment zone usually. It's a roll off to see and not a instant first turn assault but with them ignoring cover it's pretty sweet to do.
I think you should plan for but honestly if you play the ground game and just focus on all units that are not the Flyrants you can actually safely ignore them with 2 + squads of Tomb Blades.
Yeah he is; otherwise it would be 2.3 warriors per Flyrant per turn. That is pretty stupidly resilient actually. But you don't need to kill the warriors in Decurion - you just need to stand next to them at the end of the game. With anything, not just obsec. Then your obsec wins you the game.
Something I found also running a normal CAD is the extreme vulnerability to assault. If your troop choices for the Decurion aren't in a transport (which most people I think are trying to cut down on points) then you will get assaulted and swept if you're not careful. A single failed morale check at I2 likely means the whole unit is lost. Unless of course you bring counter assault units
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Hollismason wrote: I think you should plan for but honestly if you play the ground game and just focus on all units that are not the Flyrants you can actually safely ignore them with 2 + squads of Tomb Blades.
Tomb Blades are even resilient to Mawloc blasts.
...because they're T5? You can't jink a Mawloc blast
Hollismason wrote: Are you taking into account the reroll 1s that the Warriors get from an Overlord?
How many Tomb Blades do they kill taking into account the reroll 1s from the Overlord if their part of the Decurion.
Taking into account the reroll 1s a Flyrant kills 1.85 Warriors each turn. The Flyrant would need 10 turns to kill it's own weight in Warriors.
Assuming the Tomb Blades have the 3+ then a Flyrant kills 0.99 each turn. Assuming you also bough them the ignore cover, a Flyrant would need 11 turns of shooting to kill it's own weight in Tomb Blades.
Really the best Mawloc defense is to spread out and present no good targets. That way, you might get lucky and have it kill all 3/4 models under the blast (it happens twice remember) and then it will appear on the table, where you can either deal with it, or at least it has to waste a turn sitting there before it can burrow again. A Mawloc repeatedly going into and out of ongoing reserves is one of the most devastating ways to spend 140 points.
Hollismason wrote: Are you taking into account the reroll 1s that the Warriors get from an Overlord?
How many Tomb Blades do they kill taking into account the reroll 1s from the Overlord if their part of the Decurion.
Taking into account the reroll 1s a Flyrant kills 1.85 Warriors each turn. The Flyrant would need 10 turns to kill it's own weight in Warriors.
Assuming the Tomb Blades have the 3+ then a Flyrant kills 0.99 each turn. Assuming you also bough them the ignore cover, a Flyrant would need 11 turns of shooting to kill it's own weight in Tomb Blades.
True but if I'm playing Tyranids, then I suddenly remember that Flyrants can also assault (bet you didn't remember that ) some high strength AP 2 will cause them to break in a couple rounds of combat, and then I5 is then end of that unit. If you don't have enough wraiths to prevent me from doing that repeatedly, I will
You're not going to get off a Charge on Tomb Blades w/ Flyrants unless you take 4 and stick each one in the middle of each 4 quarters of the board because the first thing the Tomb Blade player will do is go, Move 12" Turbo Boost w/ Jetbikes. See Ya.Then shoot you with ST5 weaponry as you try to hunt them down.If you do land then it's possible the Tomb Blades and everything else will just shoot the Flyrant in the same area as well.They are in fact twinlinked ST5 weaponry.
I just don't think " I'll assault them is a good plan with fighting against them". The main problem they have is they do not have a good handle on T+6 and 2+ armour saves.
luke1705 wrote: Really the best Mawloc defense is to spread out and present no good targets. That way, you might get lucky and have it kill all 3/4 models under the blast (it happens twice remember) and then it will appear on the table, where you can either deal with it, or at least it has to waste a turn sitting there before it can burrow again. A Mawloc repeatedly going into and out of ongoing reserves is one of the most devastating ways to spend 140 points.
Hollismason wrote: Are you taking into account the reroll 1s that the Warriors get from an Overlord?
How many Tomb Blades do they kill taking into account the reroll 1s from the Overlord if their part of the Decurion.
Taking into account the reroll 1s a Flyrant kills 1.85 Warriors each turn. The Flyrant would need 10 turns to kill it's own weight in Warriors.
Assuming the Tomb Blades have the 3+ then a Flyrant kills 0.99 each turn. Assuming you also bough them the ignore cover, a Flyrant would need 11 turns of shooting to kill it's own weight in Tomb Blades.
True but if I'm playing Tyranids, then I suddenly remember that Flyrants can also assault (bet you didn't remember that ) some high strength AP 2 will cause them to break in a couple rounds of combat, and then I5 is then end of that unit. If you don't have enough wraiths to prevent me from doing that repeatedly, I will
That's why you have Heavy Destroyers. Although you are right that most Necron are weak in assault, the answer is either avoiding being in assault range or having your own counter assault units.
luke1705 wrote: But you don't need to kill the warriors in Decurion - you just need to stand next to them at the end of the game. With anything, not just obsec. Then your obsec wins you the game.
Considering many games are played with Maelstrom missions or equivalent, ObSec doesn't come up nearly as much. There's much less swooping onto an objective to contest at the end of the turn - ObSec really only applies when an objective is being camped and an ObSec unit swoops in to take it.
bodazoka wrote: How do I find a way to kill one of my Necron Warriors in the first turn so that I can add the Overlord to the unit in the Ghost Ark?
Dangerous terrain?
-Matt
Seems about it.. I am playing some small games later on and I am contemplating starting one squad of warriors outside of there Ark so the enemy will shoot them down a couple of models.. The ghost ark can always bring them back to 9 models.
TompiQ wrote: IMO, the best choice for immortals is leaving them on the shelf and picking tomb blades instead.
Then again, depends on if you're running a decurion or not. If you do, reserve a 5-man squad and pour the rest of your points into TBs. If it's a cad, I suppose you need the troops, but you'd still preferably keep them in a NS.
In addition to the ObSec issue (irrelevant in the Decurion), Immortals have the advantages of being
1) able to use Night Scythes and Eternity Gates
and
2) physically significantly smaller than Tomb Blades, meaning that they are much harder to hit with blast weapons and much easier to put in cover. Your squad of Tomb Blades is not going to all fit in a ruin.
It was something of an epiphany for me to realize that GW prices things not only based on the statistics of the unit, but on the physical size of the model as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey, it just occurred to me that maybe that's why Wraiths seem undercosted. The fact that those models are huge and sticking up in the air -- meaning that you can't really hide them from LOS without a big building or something -- is factored in.
It's good that the Necron AA abilities are being scrutinised, but Eldar have been winning tournaments for a long, long time now with very speculative AA. The Crimson Hunter is available to them, but most people don't bring it.
Warp Spiders (very few people bring a lot of these, since swooping hawks are also useful) and Wave Serpents can cause a few glancing hits on flyers, but their effectiveness is much in the style of a couple Necron units using TL weapons to shoot up. If someone brings 4 Flyrants, the Eldar aren't going to be targeting them at all either and are just forced to ignore them somehow.
If you take a lot of Tomb Blades you have about the same type of AA as most Eldar armies, as they have similar chances of causing glances as the Wave Serpents, and both ignore cover. Tomb Blades at rapid fire range are better at taking down flyers than Wave Serpents are, point by point.
How do we best counter highly resilient Thunderwolf Cavalry Deathstars? I'm pretty sure 4 Iron Priests with fenrisian wolves stuck in a Marine Bike command squad with a chapter master Rune Priest on bike and some ind of feel no pain is going to be seen a LOT at tournaments. There are a couple of different builds of this sort of thing. Dark Angels in order to scout and bring in a PFG and apothecary, White Scars with Smashfeth, etc.
Specifically, I'm trying to do something with a maxed out destroyer cult, ideally in a Decurion (for that 4+ RP goodness), but I keep coming up against this list in my head and thinking "what to fdo"?!?! I know if I take 3 flyrants and a venomthrope as allies to a destroyer cult I can give them something that they can't deal with, but what else? Specifically, what are the Necron answers? Wraiths to tarpit? He'll kill them all eventually and then split the ICs off to zip onto objectives).
I had a game yesterday were I payed decurion with lychguard against the thunderwolf cavalry. He charged my lych with his Calvary and killed 2 out of 8 next turn 20 warriors joined the battle. I keeper them at bay for 5 rounds while my rest army won the game.. Also how can the decurion counter the flying circus tyranid formation?
bodazoka wrote: How do I find a way to kill one of my Necron Warriors in the first turn so that I can add the Overlord to the unit in the Ghost Ark?
Dangerous terrain?
-Matt
Seems about it.. I am playing some small games later on and I am contemplating starting one squad of warriors outside of there Ark so the enemy will shoot them down a couple of models.. The ghost ark can always bring them back to 9 models.
Pretty stupid situation really.
The problem is the lack of fearless on most units, one bad round and they can be swept.
bodazoka wrote: How do I find a way to kill one of my Necron Warriors in the first turn so that I can add the Overlord to the unit in the Ghost Ark?
Dangerous terrain?
-Matt
If they're in a Decurion then they have Move Through Cover which auto-passes Dangerous terrain.
Too bad you can't shoot or tank shock your own units. I don't think there's a reliable way to kill just 1 Warrior to fit an overlord in a Ghost Ark with them.
bloodoffi wrote: I had a game yesterday were I payed decurion with lychguard against the thunderwolf cavalry. He charged my lych with his Calvary and killed 2 out of 8 next turn 20 warriors joined the battle. I keeper them at bay for 5 rounds while my rest army won the game.. Also how can the decurion counter the flying circus tyranid formation?
What did he have in the deathstar? Even with Decurion, I would have expected him to sweep you fairly easily. He's at least as durable with a proper build and a lot more killy. With decent initiative.
Tesla immortals will always be my go to unit for a night scythe. A small unit of 5 in the scythe for a linebreaker and harass unit. Plop then 24" away from whatever the enemy has back there, in cover is best, then take pot shots with them.
I wouldn't have charged 20 warriors into a TWC blender, no matter what they are equipped with. The SW player should have turned all the TWC he could onto the warriors for an easy combat res win, then the inevitable sweeping advance!
bloodoffi wrote: I had a game yesterday were I payed decurion with lychguard against the thunderwolf cavalry. He charged my lych with his Calvary and killed 2 out of 8 next turn 20 warriors joined the battle. I keeper them at bay for 5 rounds while my rest army won the game.. Also how can the decurion counter the flying circus tyranid formation?
What did he have in the deathstar? Even with Decurion, I would have expected him to sweep you fairly easily. He's at least as durable with a proper build and a lot more killy. With decent initiative.
Here's the new hotness:
Decurion
Reclamation Legion Zahndrekh
10 Lychguard with Shields
Royal Court Orikan
Lord w/ Warscythe
Overlord w/ Warscythe (or more)
740 point Deathstar (before upgrades) [I sometimes run slightly less Lychguard to keep the points managable]
Lychguard are 3++ rerolling 1s, 4+ Reanimate (even against ID) rerolling 1s. Zahndrekh can just choose not to switch his warlord trait and remain Zealot, so they can't run away/be swept.
It's also fairly killy: 20 S5 AP3 attacks, [2 S4 AP2] or [4 S7 AP2] attacks rerolling hits, and 5 S7 AP2 attacks.
Orikan Lychstar is pretty insane to kill and scary to charge. You can use it as the central line of your army - march it up the board right down the middle, or on an intercept course for the enemy Deathstar. Either they have to swing around it as wide as possible (giving you good board control) or they intercept it and get tied up forever. If there's a scary Challenge from a Character (Chapter Master Smashfather, for example), throw the Lord or Overlord into it, especially if you give him a Phase Shifter.
jSewell wrote: How do you run a reclamation legion with just zandrekh and lychguard?
Any opinions/experience with Judiciator formation with NS on the praetorians for the re-rolls?
I was just listing the units in the Deathstar to give a feel of the points value and what the unit is consisted of. Obviously you still need Immortals/Warriors/Warriors/Tomb Blades.
If you want additionally, the Lord/Overlord from the Court can go into other squads and even be Characters in their own rights. Putting Obyron into a squad of Immortals and deploying him on the opposite side of the board as Zahndrekh gives sudden surprise mobility that people will think twice about. Or grabbing Anrakyr as the Overlord and moving his Pyrrhian Immortals alongside the Lychstar for some surprisingly decent Assault support.
bloodoffi wrote: I had a game yesterday were I payed decurion with lychguard against the thunderwolf cavalry. He charged my lych with his Calvary and killed 2 out of 8 next turn 20 warriors joined the battle. I keeper them at bay for 5 rounds while my rest army won the game.. Also how can the decurion counter the flying circus tyranid formation?
What did he have in the deathstar? Even with Decurion, I would have expected him to sweep you fairly easily. He's at least as durable with a proper build and a lot more killy. With decent initiative.
This is why I like the Praetorians. You can use them to tie up the Deathstars since they are fearless and they are fairly durable as well.
Worth pointing out (because I missed it myself) that Orikan gives re-rolls for armor saves only, not invulnerable saves. So it's not as spectacular as it could be against AP 2, but I mean at worst you're rolling a 3++ (probably with RP). Not terrible so if they want to unload their AP 2 into that unit, more power to them
bloodoffi wrote: I had a game yesterday were I payed decurion with lychguard against the thunderwolf cavalry. He charged my lych with his Calvary and killed 2 out of 8 next turn 20 warriors joined the battle. I keeper them at bay for 5 rounds while my rest army won the game.. Also how can the decurion counter the flying circus tyranid formation?
What did he have in the deathstar? Even with Decurion, I would have expected him to sweep you fairly easily. He's at least as durable with a proper build and a lot more killy. With decent initiative.
This is why I like the Praetorians. You can use them to tie up the Deathstars since they are fearless and they are fairly durable as well.
I think it was pointed out that Zandrekh makes any unit fearless due to Zealot.
This conversation is the first really good argument I've seen for the boards and swords (and lychguard in general. 3++ rerolling 1s with Orikan is pretty great. The scythes version would get annihilated by the Iron Priest's ap 2 attacks alone. And the TWC blob has such a high number of stormshields that its going to win the combats every time. Its a lot of points for a 6" moving blob.
How does it deal with knights with the swords and boards? (by relying on a warscythe or two from the lord/overlord?)
bloodoffi wrote: I had a game yesterday were I payed decurion with lychguard against the thunderwolf cavalry. He charged my lych with his Calvary and killed 2 out of 8 next turn 20 warriors joined the battle. I keeper them at bay for 5 rounds while my rest army won the game.. Also how can the decurion counter the flying circus tyranid formation?
What did he have in the deathstar? Even with Decurion, I would have expected him to sweep you fairly easily. He's at least as durable with a proper build and a lot more killy. With decent initiative.
This is why I like the Praetorians. You can use them to tie up the Deathstars since they are fearless and they are fairly durable as well.
I think it was pointed out that Zandrekh makes any unit fearless due to Zealot.
While he does, I would rather have the flexibility to switch Traits when needed. And ideally I would not want him in the unit tying up the deathstar.
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luke1705 wrote: Worth pointing out (because I missed it myself) that Orikan gives re-rolls for armor saves only, not invulnerable saves. So it's not as spectacular as it could be against AP 2, but I mean at worst you're rolling a 3++ (probably with RP). Not terrible so if they want to unload their AP 2 into that unit, more power to them
Orikan gives a reroll of "saving throws". It works on Invulnerable ones just fine.
Orikan gives a reroll of "saving throws". It works on Invulnerable ones just fine.
His +1 to RPs is wasted though, since I assume this is being run in a Decurion. Pretty hard to kill unit regardless. 3+ save re-rolling 1's and a 4+ RP re-rolling 1's.
Not quite a 2+ invulnerable with re-rolls, but not far from it either. Out of 10 wounds only 0,28 go through the re-rollable 2+ invulnerable. Out of 10 wounds against the Lychguard 0,9 will go unsaved. It's pretty much the same as the 'comped' version of a 2+ re-rollable, where the re-roll only succeeds on a 4+.
Fragile wrote: Not necessarily. It would help vs ID weapons.
I'm not sure what you mean. Reanimation Protocols can never be improved beyond 4+, and the Decurion already grants everyone a 4+ RP. Therefore, Orikan's +1 to RPs is wasted.
EDIT: NVM the rules are quite clear. The required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+. So what I wrote above stands. Orikan's bonus is wasted.
Orikan's bonus works if you get hit by a str10 weapon which would normally cause your RP to be 5+ in decurion but with a cryptek it's back to 4+.
That said, this deathstar doesn't need a decurion to work because of orikan since he gives them 4+ RP anyways(except vs Instant death) the only thing you lose out on outside of the decurion is the re-roll 1s on your RP which is a hit but depends on how you want to run the rest of your list.
Fragile wrote: Not necessarily. It would help vs ID weapons.
I'm not sure what you mean. Reanimation Protocols can never be improved beyond 4+, and the Decurion already grants everyone a 4+ RP. Therefore, Orikan's +1 to RPs is wasted.
EDIT: NVM the rules are quite clear. The required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+. So what I wrote above stands. Orikan's bonus is wasted.
RP is typically 5+. Decurion makes it a 4+. ID weapon makes it back to a 5+. Orikan makes that a 4+ again.
luke1705 wrote: Worth pointing out (because I missed it myself) that Orikan gives re-rolls for armor saves only, not invulnerable saves. So it's not as spectacular as it could be against AP 2, but I mean at worst you're rolling a 3++ (probably with RP). Not terrible so if they want to unload their AP 2 into that unit, more power to them
Orikan gives a reroll of "saving throws". It works on Invulnerable ones just fine.
I stand corrected. That is exhibit B of what you get for listening to some guy on the Internet, which I fell victim to. Exhibit A of that would be my previous post. Reading comprehension OP
Way back in the dark days of page 30 I did some maths (which later was corrected by someone better at maths then me) on the survivability of Orikan + Lychguard.
Yeah it's also fairly easy to get a Deathstar going by taking the Royal Court as you can in fact take Obyron as the Lord, Orikan as the Cryptek then an additional Overlord. It's just to expensive for my taste though. Minimum is like 600 points of Characters.
So mimum 500 points invested and you haven't even hit the troop requirement for the Decurion. Although you could just go for broke and give both lords Warscythes, Phase Shifters, and Res Orbs.
This pretty much makes it unkillable via anything but a D Weapon
Overlord from Reclamation w/ Res Orb, Warscythe , Phase Shifter (150)
Overlord from Royal Court w/ Res Orb, Warscythe , Phase Shifter (150)
Orikan (120)
Obyron (120)
5 Lychguard w/ War Scythes, because why not. (125)
Nothing will kill this short of maybe a Lance formation all charging and they'll probably kill 3 Imperial Knights since unless it's a character you can allocate the D hits to the Lychguard.
I've no idea who did the math and said they save 17 out of every 18 wounds but it's wrong. Out of 18 wounds, 1,667 will go unsaved at the end. It's over 3 times weaker than a 2+ re-rollable cover/invulnerable save (out of 18 0,5 go through)
It's still awesome, but you might want to re-check your math.
On another note, has anyone thought of using CCBs in a competitive list? It costs only 55 points on top of the standard Overlord, but brings a heavy weapon and a fast skimmer that can cause a few hammer of wrath hits in combat. It's pretty survivable to shooting as well considering you can assign some lascannon shots to the Overlord and take all the S6 and lower stuff with the Barge.
It also ignores the stuns (and immobilises because for chariots they're stuns) because of the Decurion Living Metal rule.
Does a Destroyer Cult Lord's Extermination Protocols confer to a unit he joins? I'm not advantage mining here, I just genuinely can't parse if it does or not.
I think the Orikan Wraith Star might be even more resilient, not to mention faster....and I think generally better.
Orikan
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter
Wraiths
Destroyer lord has a re-rollable 2+ followed by a 4+ RP, and then a re-roll of that if you pop the res orb. Let's pretend that you are not in the Decurion (for list-building flexibility) but have the wraiths as part of the Canoptek harvest (I will add calculations for what happens when the Spyder dies also)
For the tanking D lord w/phase shifter:
Saves 98.6% of all non ap 2 shots, and 80% of AP 2 shots (if for some reason you don't want to LOS)
When he pops the res orb, this increases to a ridiculous 99.3% of non-AP 2 shots saved, and 90% of AP 2 shots saved
When he decides to Look Out Sir, the duty falls to the wraiths.
They have a 3++ re-rolling 1's, so they will save 88.8 % of all wounds coming their way when they are benefitting from the Spyder's RP. This is increased to a ridiculous 94.5% of all shots saved when the res orb is popped.
So clearly, when benefitting from RP and a res orb is popped, nobody is going to die. Ever. But let's say I am playing against someone who is smart enough to not shoot at them when the Spyder is alive (or I just don't use the Canoptek formation). Still, you get all the same numbers for the D Lord, and the wraiths are still going to save 78.8% of all the things that you can't have the D Lord tank (read: only AP 2). How much AP 2 is your opponent really going to pour into that unit when you are almost rolling a 2+ save on the wraiths anyhow?
bodazoka wrote: Way back in the dark days of page 30 I did some maths (which later was corrected by someone better at maths then me) on the survivability of Orikan + Lychguard.
caelim wrote: With Orikan, you're going to take 1 unsaved wound out of 18. (94.4....% saved) [corrected]
[Assuming you're getting a 4+ RP, of course]
Holy crap! the unit has a 94.4% chance to save a wound! and it's an invulnerable save! geez... aanndd they are T5 as well..
400 points for 10 guys + Orikan
They are almost invincible! out of 100 armour saves you still have 4.4 of them left in the unit!
(effectively) a 2++ armour save followed by a 4+++ (5+++ v ID). What in the game is more resilient then that? <--- and that's not even in the Decurion
The numbers should not be that high. Rerolling ones gives you about a 26% to fail the armor save. And then you have a 42% to fail the RP roll on the 4+ rerolling ones. That should work out to about 11% fail rate.
changemod wrote: Does a Destroyer Cult Lord's Extermination Protocols confer to a unit he joins? I'm not advantage mining here, I just genuinely can't parse if it does or not.
That...is a great question. I think it should since your destroyer lord is a unit, so the unit he joins should benefit from it just like how preferred enemy is conferred. However, I don't know if there is RAW basis for that
It wouldnt confer because he becomes part of that unit for rules purposes but if a Special Character say Szeras, joined a unit of H. Destroyers from that Formation he would as it is a unit from that formation.
It works one way but not the other, there's a exact thread on this in YMDC regarding Harlequins and their abilities.
luke1705 wrote: I think the Orikan Wraith Star might be even more resilient, not to mention faster....and I think generally better.
Orikan
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter
Wraiths
Destroyer lord has a re-rollable 2+ followed by a 4+ RP, and then a re-roll of that if you pop the res orb. Let's pretend that you are not in the Decurion (for list-building flexibility) but have the wraiths as part of the Canoptek harvest (I will add calculations for what happens when the Spyder dies also)
For the tanking D lord w/phase shifter:
Saves 98.6% of all non ap 2 shots, and 80% of AP 2 shots (if for some reason you don't want to LOS)
When he pops the res orb, this increases to a ridiculous 99.3% of non-AP 2 shots saved, and 90% of AP 2 shots saved
When he decides to Look Out Sir, the duty falls to the wraiths.
They have a 3++ re-rolling 1's, so they will save 89.9 % of all wounds coming their way when they are benefitting from the Spyder's RP. This is increased to a ridiculous 94.5% of all shots saved when the res orb is popped.
So clearly, when benefitting from RP and a res orb is popped, nobody is going to die. Ever. But let's say I am playing against someone who is smart enough to not shoot at them when the Spyder is alive (or I just don't use the Canoptek formation). Still, you get all the same numbers for the D Lord, and the wraiths are still going to save 78.8% of all the things that you can't have the D Lord tank (read: only AP 2). How much AP 2 is your opponent really going to pour into that unit when you are almost rolling a 2+ save on the wraiths anyhow?
It's not much different than the common deathstars with invisibility. They can't be killed by shooting. Ever. That said, Orikan, the Destroyer Lord, and the Wraiths all move at different speeds. The unit is treated like every other deathstar. It's avoided all game and beaten to the objectives. The only people who will fight it are ones with more expensive deathstars, and the fight will be in assault, not in the shooting phase. In assault, naturally the Orikan is killed with a S8 hit first because that'll remove all the re-rolls from the unit.
luke1705 wrote: I think the Orikan Wraith Star might be even more resilient, not to mention faster....and I think generally better.
Orikan
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter
Wraiths
Destroyer lord has a re-rollable 2+ followed by a 4+ RP, and then a re-roll of that if you pop the res orb. Let's pretend that you are not in the Decurion (for list-building flexibility) but have the wraiths as part of the Canoptek harvest (I will add calculations for what happens when the Spyder dies also)
For the tanking D lord w/phase shifter:
Saves 98.6% of all non ap 2 shots, and 80% of AP 2 shots (if for some reason you don't want to LOS)
When he pops the res orb, this increases to a ridiculous 99.3% of non-AP 2 shots saved, and 90% of AP 2 shots saved
When he decides to Look Out Sir, the duty falls to the wraiths.
They have a 3++ re-rolling 1's, so they will save 89.9 % of all wounds coming their way when they are benefitting from the Spyder's RP. This is increased to a ridiculous 94.5% of all shots saved when the res orb is popped.
So clearly, when benefitting from RP and a res orb is popped, nobody is going to die. Ever. But let's say I am playing against someone who is smart enough to not shoot at them when the Spyder is alive (or I just don't use the Canoptek formation). Still, you get all the same numbers for the D Lord, and the wraiths are still going to save 78.8% of all the things that you can't have the D Lord tank (read: only AP 2). How much AP 2 is your opponent really going to pour into that unit when you are almost rolling a 2+ save on the wraiths anyhow?
It's not much different than the common deathstars with invisibility. They can't be killed by shooting. Ever. That said, Orikan, the Destroyer Lord, and the Wraiths all move at different speeds. The unit is treated like every other deathstar. It's avoided all game and beaten to the objectives. The only people who will fight it are ones with more expensive deathstars, and the fight will be in assault, not in the shooting phase. In assault, naturally the Orikan is killed with a S8 hit first because that'll remove all the re-rolls from the unit.
How are you going to target him? He can decline the challenge until he is empowered, and he is the same unit as the wraiths so you can't allocate attacks to him directly. Even if he is in base to base, you can look out sir
changemod wrote: Does a Destroyer Cult Lord's Extermination Protocols confer to a unit he joins? I'm not advantage mining here, I just genuinely can't parse if it does or not.
That...is a great question. I think it should since your destroyer lord is a unit, so the unit he joins should benefit from it just like how preferred enemy is conferred. However, I don't know if there is RAW basis for that
No. The Destroyer Lord becomes a part of the unit he joins and unless that unit comes from the formation to begin with they would not benefit from his Extermination Protocols special rule.
changemod wrote: Does a Destroyer Cult Lord's Extermination Protocols confer to a unit he joins? I'm not advantage mining here, I just genuinely can't parse if it does or not.
That...is a great question. I think it should since your destroyer lord is a unit, so the unit he joins should benefit from it just like how preferred enemy is conferred. However, I don't know if there is RAW basis for that
No. The Destroyer Lord becomes a part of the unit he joins and unless that unit comes from the formation to begin with they would not benefit from his Extermination Protocols special rule.
This is the exact way it would work with Harlequins , like i posted it works one way but not the other, IC joins a Destroyer Unit from that formation, he'd get the special rule, Destroyer lord joining another non formation unit they wouldn't
The numbers should not be that high. Rerolling ones gives you about a 26% to fail the armor save. And then you have a 42% to fail the RP roll on the 4+ rerolling ones. That should work out to about 11% fail rate.
Actually they are. He didn't even take into account re-rolling 1's. Chance to fail a 3++ re-rolling 1's:
I roll a 2 - fail - .16666
I roll a 1, AND I roll a 1 or a 2: - .166666 * .333333 = . 0555
.1666 + .0555 = 22.2% chance of failure, or roughly 78.8 % save rate. You are correct about the 42% fail rate for RP when re-rolling ones, so that would be .222 * .42 = .093 or roughly 90.7 % success rate
The numbers should not be that high. Rerolling ones gives you about a 26% to fail the armor save. And then you have a 42% to fail the RP roll on the 4+ rerolling ones. That should work out to about 11% fail rate.
Actually they are. He didn't even take into account re-rolling 1's. Chance to fail a 3++ re-rolling 1's:
I roll a 2 - fail - .16666
I roll a 1, AND I roll a 1 or a 2: - .166666 * .333333 = . 0555
.1666 + .0555 = 22.2% chance of failure, or roughly 78.8 % save rate. You are correct about the 42% fail rate for RP when re-rolling ones, so that would be .222 * .42 = .093 or roughly 90.7 % success rate
Like I said 10 posts up, out of 18 saves you fail 1.667 instead of 1 as claimed. 9.3% of wounds go through. It's a lot weaker than a 2+ re-rollable, but it's a little stronger than a pure 3+ re-rollable.
Has anyone tried running the Doombringer Flight formation?
I'm considering it outside Necrons/Decurion as AA.
Speaking of which, if you ignore Crew Stunned from a Decurion Detachment's Living Metal for a Flyer and you roll Immobilised on the damage chart (but subsequently roll a 3-6 and pass)m would you just ignore the effects of the pen (aside the Hull Point loss)?
so a nice little decurion orikan death star army at 1850 could look like this
reclamation:
overlord w WS, PS, RO
Immortals w Guass, Night scythe
10x lychguard w Sword n board (orikan, cryptek, obyron, O/lord here)
6x tombblades w guass, nebuloscope, shield vanes
10x warriors in GA
20x warriors (Zandrehk goes here
Auxilery
5x deathmarks
Royal court
Orikan
cryptek w solar staff
vargard
Zandrehk
death star in their back field with the obyron jump and a big clump of walking doom walking down the middle and tomb blades down the middle to harrass anything that decides to come forward
Therion wrote: Like I said 10 posts up, out of 18 saves you fail 1.667 instead of 1 as claimed. 9.3% of wounds go through. It's a lot weaker than a 2+ re-rollable, but it's a little stronger than a pure 3+ re-rollable.
Ok soooo....
100 wounds are caused
3++ armour save - saves 66.6 wounds
33.33 wounds are left
Averages state that of the 33.33 wounds that are left half of them will be 1's
Re-rolling 16.66 saves with a 3++ saves another 11.1 wounds
33.33 - 11.1 = 22.23 wounds remaining
4+++ RP saves half of those wounds meaning 11.11 wounds are left
So they have an 88.9% chance to save every wound..
Re-rollable 2+ save is a 97% chance to save a wound? - Question is that build an invulnerable save? also points wise how does that stack up? Do they get that save with D weapons?
Re-rollable 3+ is exactly the same? - Also is there a build where that is an invulnerable outside of the necrons?
I'm just thinking all though the maths are for a 2+ re-roll able in practise is it actually tougher when you consider what is hitting it?
I don't understand the point of running an Orikan star list in a Decurion. You have so many points invested into a royal court, plus the reclamation legion. And they probably won't have the D lord with them for preferred enemy because that's a large points investment also (the destroyer formation). And you'll already be getting the 4+ RP in any unit with Orikan in it.
I don't know, maybe I'm just jaded and think that the list-buidling flexibility offered by a standard CAD is as big of a boon to it as the obsec is. I feel like you can stick Orikan or a Cryptek into whatever units are important, thus granting them the same 4+ RP.
Also, a strategy that has not been mentioned that I've been wondering about:
Can a Cryptek from the Conclave of the Burning one leave the unit? Maybe you just want to have more crypteks. Turn one you're probably going to deep strike, but couldn't you divorce the second Cryptek from the squad before that and have him join whatever other unit you want? Seems like a good way to flirt around the HQ restrictions without self-ally if it works
luke1705 wrote: I don't understand the point of running an Orikan star list in a Decurion. You have so many points invested into a royal court, plus the reclamation legion. And they probably won't have the D lord with them for preferred enemy because that's a large points investment also (the destroyer formation). And you'll already be getting the 4+ RP in any unit with Orikan in it.
I don't know, maybe I'm just jaded and think that the list-buidling flexibility offered by a standard CAD is as big of a boon to it as the obsec is. I feel like you can stick Orikan or a Cryptek into whatever units are important, thus granting them the same 4+ RP.
I'm with you on that one, I don't like the Decurion (outside of a couple of formations) It's too restrictive for me. As soon as I'm done with the Reclamation (which isn't too bad) I want to add unit's that I need a tax for all the time.
Go CAD and add a Crpytek to unit's you need to survive IMO
Couple of things on that Orikan Star. Most iterations are going to be majority T5, giving them an advantage over many 2++ stars that are majority T4.
Also, any of your 2+ AS Lords are going to be relentless tanks against any firepower less then AP 2. With any thing from a 98.6% to a ludicrous 99.3% save rate with a popped Res Orb, these guys are serious.
My thinking is bookend a couple of these guys on some WSLG:
Honestly, even with Oby, I'd pop them all in an NS for good measure.
So, yeah, half your list, lol. But go big or go home, IMHO. That crew would just eat anything it touches, and it's very inconvenient to take down via shooting. Of course, as other's have pointed out, normal deathstar restrictions apply. Fourtunatly, though, Crons do MSU pretty well other wise. You could toss in 9 HDS and 3x5 TBs into that list without too much trouble, plus a couple Immortal squads or something.
I wanted a second res orb. As an alternate drop Oby and get a Reslord + WS instead.
It's actually pretty easy to do with the Decurion because of the Annihilation Nexus and Death bringer formation but if i were to do a "normal" AV13 wall you'd have to bring along some Triarch Stalkers, their to good to pass up.
Bargelord w/ Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Res Orb (180)
Elites
1 Triarch Stalkers (125)
1 Triarch Stalker (125)
Troops
10 Immortals w/ Ghost Ark (235)
10 Warrior w/ Ghost Ark (235)
F. Attack
3 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils (129)
3 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils (129)
1 Destroyer Upgrade H. Destroyer (50)
H. Support
1 H. Destroyer (50)
1 H. Destroyer (50)
1 H. Destroyer (50)
Annihilation Nexus (410)
2 Annihilation Barges
1 Doomsday Ark
Enjoy shooting at all the small MSU Lascannons w/ 2 W a piece that can bounce behind things and keep up with the Stalkers. I'm sure someone can come up with a better one though but AV13 w/ multiple MSU is annoying as gak. Great I gotta shoot all these or I can try and kill 1 guy.
omerakk wrote: The decurion is fun and all, but has anyone tried going vehicle heavy and making an oldschool AV13 wall?
My current think on AV13 wall is both Arcs got a discount, so that seems to really push them ahead of the now expensive AB, although I wouldn't be above taking some,
Hmm...
CAD
Chronotek + Solar Staff
20 x Warriors
10 x Warriors + GA 10 x Warriors + GA 10 x Warriors + GA
That's a pretty solid start, I would think. 8 AV 13 hulls and 30 AV 13 HPs, and in the middle really tough brick.
I just realized I totally whiffed on the CCB. You could totally swap the Wraiths for one without too much trouble.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, good list Hollisman. I was reaching for the HDs at first myself but kind of had to swap my hand away as they've been appearing in almost all my lists, now. I love those guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Man, that list kind of has me excited. 3 Doomsdays would be hell of fun to play.
Maybe throw the normal CAD ones in the corners and throw the formation guy smack in the middle with the ABs, and probably pair a Ghost Arc with each one for some cover.
Also, those Gauss Flayer Arrays though! If you play a fast opponent that likes to move around a lot your Gauss shots could peak well north of 100 some turns. That will force some WS to Jink to save their skins.
omerakk wrote: The decurion is fun and all, but has anyone tried going vehicle heavy and making an oldschool AV13 wall?
My current think on AV13 wall is both Arcs got a discount, so that seems to really push them ahead of the now expensive AB, although I wouldn't be above taking some,
Hmm...
CAD
Chronotek + Solar Staff
20 x Warriors
10 x Warriors + GA 10 x Warriors + GA 10 x Warriors + GA
That's a pretty solid start, I would think. 8 AV 13 hulls and 30 AV 13 HPs, and in the middle really tough brick.
I just realized I totally whiffed on the CCB. You could totally swap the Wraiths for one without too much trouble.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, good list Hollisman. I was reaching for the HDs at first myself but kind of had to swap my hand away as they've been appearing in almost all my lists, now. I love those guys.
Thanks here are my changes I like your list and didn't consider the Doomsday Arks, but still I really think that Annihilation Barges are a good Vehicle.
I keep forgetting, what does Primary Weapon do again, Re-roll to Pen?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
12 AV 13 Vehicles , 2 ST 10 Blasts , 8 ST8 AP2 Shots, 36 ST 7? 60 Gauss, the Bargelord.
My only concern with that list is do you think the Stalkers are efficient enough without really taking advantage of their aura? I mean, a two shot MM is nothing to sniff at, but it's a little pricey at 125. Don't get me wrong, paired with infantry they are super hot.
I think if I as going pure AV 13 I would rather have 2 barge lords and maybe an extra loaded GA then the Stalkers? Although, at least one for a little Melta support is definitely considerable, and if he had nothing to buff he probably wouldn't attract a whole lot of attention.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Decurion style ::
CCB
GA + 10
GA + 10
5 x Immortals
3 TBs
Formation
Annihilation Nexus (410)
Formation
Annihilation Nexus (410)
Formation
Annihilation Nexus (410)
Heh. That...actually doesn't look two unplayable either. 6 ABs, 3 DAs, 2 GAs, and a CCB? Pewpewpew.
The stalkers are really begging to be next to some destroyers. Heavy or not, they're both loving it. Personally I think I'd go for 2/3 heavy destroyers. 275 points gets you a stalker and 3 of those bad boys. That's pretty solid ranged firepower, especially with preferred enemy. That is also great for the to-wound roll. A re-rollable anything but will net you a wound pretty much always, and when you fail to glance with a las cannon, you're rolling a 1 more than you think.
Yeah I'm not to sold on Regular Destroyers but H. Destroyers are crazy with a Triarch. The reason I think the Triarchs are great is that'll they will draw fire , so cover is good for them but also people will ignore them as well and you'll just keep shooting them with 2 AP2 shots a turn.
Yeah, I've said this a couple times in this thread but regular D's outside the formation around a Stalker are pretty decent, inside the formation they shoot up considerably, though. Grabbing rerolls on top of both your 5/3 shots and your Gauss makes a pretty massive difference, to where they are even threatening flying hive tyrants pretty okay.
As we were discussing AV 13 I started rolling around AV 14 spam lists in my head for fun.
I kind of see two ways to go about it.
One in a normal CAD + Livng Tomb ::
Zandy
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
FA 5 x Gauss + Nubolscope + Shield Vanes TBs 5 x Gauss + Nubolscope + Shield Vanes TBs 1 x HD
HS Mono
Mono
1 x HD
Living Tomb
Obelisk
Mono
Mono
1950
Something like that? 22 AV 14 HPs? Might be worth a go. I was thinking the Tomb Blades would be the best way to take advantage of the living Tomb ability, You could use that essentially 24+the width of the Mono's bubble around the Obelisk to near guarantee rear angles on vehicles. Come to think of it, that might be a reason to go Beamers instead.
I'll have to play around with it, bit it would be pretty comical to watch someone try to whittle that down. I mean, a couple suicide melta squads might get one or two of your hulls if they get lucky, but then what are they going to do, S7/6 spam you to death?
Punisher wrote: You have to have serious amour target saturation to get such a high priority target within 24" without it being shot to death.
AV 13 isn't that easy to crack. In addition, if you are using the stalker for it's target relay, nearly all units that benefit from it have a range of 24' or less.... So it's either going to be within 24', or it's going to be a waste of points.
Punisher wrote: You have to have serious amour target saturation to get such a high priority target within 24" without it being shot to death.
Well, sort of. But what's good at shooting Stalkers, also tends to be your best bet at shooting the stuff around it, too. At the very least they are an added layer of protecting on your HDs and what nots. Like and AV 13 Void Shield that you are choosing to shoot at.
I have a feeling Stalkers are going to stop being the first thing to die once people start bringing Doomsday Arks. 72" range S10 Ap1 large blasts are a lot more scary than a couple of melta shots.
I like this as an AV wall, unless you play Obelisks as worthless pieces of scenery with no decent fire arcs on their guns (in which case bring a Stalker and some wraiths):
Punisher wrote: Anyone run a stalker before? Wondering what the best loadout is, since by the time it's in melta range it's always dead for me.
Was thinking about the gauss cannon, but H.destroyers just do that better, so anyone try the blast out to any success?
The Melta is the best load-out.
The problem with the Melta is that the Stalker needs to be close, which probably means a dead Stalker.
No it doesn't. .2 Strength 8 AP 1 shots even without the melta bonus is going to crack a good chunk of vehicles, from 24' away.
Even then, AV13 isn't very resistant. I have seen many stalkers being nuked on the first turn.
By this logic, then you shouldn't even put anything on the table, since you've seen stuff get nuked on the first turn. By your logic, that also makes the Heavy Gauss Cannon pointless, since it'd never get to fire either....
You're going in circles here.
Here is the deal, AV13 is pretty resilient. There is not a very high chance it will get cracked on the first turn, unless it's drop pod melta. Of course it's possible it can get nuked first turn. So can land raiders. I've seen it done. That doesn't mean it's a very high probability, and it's worthless to discuss the fact that someone gets lucky with some dice rolls.
If you are using the stalker, you should be using it primarily for the targeting relay. Nearly everything that benefits from the Target Relay has 24' range, so the stalker will be in 24-30 range of the relay targets. With a 6 inch move, and a 24 inch range, this makes the melta the better choice.
If you are not using it primarily for the target relay, then you shouldn't be taking a stalker. You get better value for your points elsewhere.
Would attaching a d. lord with warscythe and 2+/4++ and IWND, to a unit of deathmarks be considered competitive. Bringing decurion and thought this would be interested, neither units get their movement too limited and PE can help with the first turn of shooting with the D. Lord, other idea is maybe the solar staff, but then if I get assaulted have little to no killing power and do not get the shoot during opponents turn bonus.
Don't like the idea of the d.lord with deathmarks. Just don't think deathmarks are that great and re-rolling 1s to hit and wound won't turn them into a great unit either. 2 better options are to deepstrike the d.lord with flayed ones or to deepstrike the lord with preatorians who have a much more threatening weapon to re-roll with.
It's not bad but for MSU you should take the full 3 units of (3) Blades that are allowed in the Reclamation Legion. You only need to drop a couple of those Flayed Ones units, and your list will be a lot better. T5 Jetbikes with RP and anti-everything guns are cool. I like the idea of taking 2 Destroyer Cults though. Those guys (and Tomb Blades) have very few (if any) weaknesses.
This is where I'm at currently. It's either between mixing a Legion + CAD or doing a full on Decursion w/ Judicator Battalion and/or D. Cult (they get so expensive so quickly! lol)
It is a bit of an ignore fliers list unless there's nothing else to shoot at, but that will be fine typically
Not 100% on the flayed ones, but I like the idea of having them and the D. Lord in reserve to deepstrike when needed. Might switch them out for deathmarks or wraiths or who knows
Really want to test out the Judicator Battallion with Night Scythes for the Praetorians (even though they "cant" embark until it is FAQd) just for the formation re-rolls on hits/wounds/armor pen fails.
If my meta has lots of drop pod melta squads, does that make deathmarks "hunter from hyperspacing" more viable, or are they still not great?
Also I saw where some said that if you take the Judicator and take NS for your praetorians(I know they can't actually ride in it) the NS get the benefits of the rerolls from the stalker, is this true?
I think you could get some more variety into the list with using the Reclamation by taking MSU's of the Canoptek Harvest.
The Destroyer cult is great, but it's not the end all be all. Remember you can take multiple Reclamation legions which can lead to some interesting armies.
18 Seperate Units all of which have a 4+ Save and can reroll, you could even spend some points to turn those Overlords into Bargelords if you dropped 2 Tomb Blade Squads from Each Legion.
You can get more than that with a CAD and reclamation legion. Flayed ones are 65 points a model in the Decurion w/ a 4+ , 4++ so it's better to take the MSU from the CAD and not the Decurion but take the flayed ones from there..
Plus their cheaper than taking 5 man Immortals, I'd max out my troops total in the army with 4 Immortals, then the required 2 Troops in the Decurion.
Yea just wrote that ass backwards. that's what I meant take all your MSU like the Destroyers from the Normal CAD. Don't take Flayed Ones the Decurion makes them super awesome assault units.
5 x 5 is 325 points, that's really all you need. That's 25 Flayed ones Squads I'd bump it up to six so that two can stay together charge a squad with one eat over watch charge another. They all get Move Through Cover as well.
Hollismason wrote: Yea just wrote that ass backwards. that's what I meant take all your MSU like the Destroyers from the Normal CAD.
Well, the assumption here is that you can't take anymore FOs because you aren't actually taking the Decurion, just the Rec Legion as a formation unto it's own.
If a tournament is going to allow you to take full rec legion and full CAD, yeah, go nuts, lol.
Tournaments are moving towards the Two Sources, as you've seen it's pretty normal to be able to take a Special Detachment and a normal Detachment in most of them.
Also, I don't really concern myself with tournaments that much.
Do flyrant have acess to ignore cover. A flyrant would be hard pressed to gun down flayed ones in cover. It would require 20 wounds to kills 5 of them when they have a 4+ cover.
It is a strange world in which a Deep Striking T4 3+ unit with Reanimation Protocols and an RF sniper weapon that is Poison (2+) on the first turn counts as not good.
schadenfreude wrote: Do flyrant have acess to ignore cover. A flyrant would be hard pressed to gun down flayed ones in cover. It would require 20 wounds to kills 5 of them when they have a 4+ cover.
Flyrants use 2 x twin linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms S6 AP- Assault 6, so you get your armour save anyway. With 4+/4+++ they'll kill just over 2 per turn on average.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alcibiades wrote: It is a strange world in which a Deep Striking T4 3+ unit with Reanimation Protocols and an RF sniper weapon that is Poison (2+) on the first turn counts as not good.
I agree, I was thinking that if they had Gauss or proper Rending so they could deal with vehicles I would try Deathmark MSU spam.
Punisher wrote: Don't like the idea of the d.lord with deathmarks. Just don't think deathmarks are that great and re-rolling 1s to hit and wound won't turn them into a great unit either. 2 better options are to deepstrike the d.lord with flayed ones or to deepstrike the lord with preatorians who have a much more threatening weapon to re-roll with.
I completely disagree with this. Deathmarks are a wonderful unit and one of our best answers to monstrous creatures. I never play a game without them. Being able to deepstrike wherever you need them, rapid firing and wounding on 2+ means you are going to get a great alpha strike against almost anything. Additionally, with the 3+ armor save, they will be around for a while. Using a Dlord as a way to reroll 1s makes the alpha strike better and gives the Dlord some protection the turn he comes into play so he can move and assault on his next turn.
With a 4+ Reanimation, I know the new crons are durable. But what is their offensive specialty in the new book? VOF with large bricks or MSU and rapid fire? AV Wall? Assault(Crons, wtf?)? etc?
I get that almost every unit is usable now, but does anything jump out as a strength? I am trying to decide what type of list I want to build and I can't seem to settle on anything.
mike208 wrote: With a 4+ Reanimation, I know the new crons are durable. But what is their offensive specialty in the new book? VOF with large bricks or MSU and rapid fire? AV Wall? Assault(Crons, wtf?)? etc?
I get that almost every unit is usable now, but does anything jump out as a strength? I am trying to decide what type of list I want to build and I can't seem to settle on anything.
It's impossible to say. You need to either wait or just build a 6000 point army to have a good selection of units to choose from. There's a lot of overreactions going on right now regarding the Necrons. Some think that you only need to spam Wraiths, others say they'll just take a gazillion of Tomb Blades. Others swear by Destroyer Cults as you can even have 2 in the same Decurion. Then on top of that you have people who just want to spam regular troops, or Flayed Ones, and the people who want to play Lychstars and Praetorians. If you want me to hazard a guess, the eventual tournament tac setup will be a mix of all the good elements instead of 'look mom I bought 50 Tomb Blades' types of lists.
A good selection of strong units also means that the players can adapt their list based on the tournament rules and missions and don't have just 1 hit or miss build available to them.
mike208 wrote: With a 4+ Reanimation, I know the new crons are durable. But what is their offensive specialty in the new book? VOF with large bricks or MSU and rapid fire? AV Wall? Assault(Crons, wtf?)? etc?
I get that almost every unit is usable now, but does anything jump out as a strength? I am trying to decide what type of list I want to build and I can't seem to settle on anything.
It's impossible to say. You need to either wait or just build a 6000 point army to have a good selection of units to choose from. There's a lot of overreactions going on right now regarding the Necrons. Some think that you only need to spam Wraiths, others say they'll just take a gazillion of Tomb Blades. Others swear by Destroyer Cults as you can even have 2 in the same Decurion. Then on top of that you have people who just want to spam regular troops, or Flayed Ones, and the people who want to play Lychstars and Praetorians. If you want me to hazard a guess, the eventual tournament tac setup will be a mix of all the good elements instead of 'look mom I bought 50 Tomb Blades' types of lists.
A good selection of strong units also means that the players can adapt their list based on the tournament rules and missions and don't have just 1 hit or miss build available to them.
Yeah I see the overreactions happening. Some may be justified, some may not be, as you said we will see in time.There are definitely a lot of units I like and want to take, but I'm trying to find some synergy too and thus far I haven't found too much outside of a unit or 2. I like the judicator, but it seems expensive for 1 stalker and 2 small units of praets. If the praets take NS as transports do the NS get the rerolls from the fromation rules too? I'm considering sticking with AV wall but I don't really like the CCB any more. The other units even if they took a hit or point increase I think are still good.
But I think I the most appealing to me is a semi walking tide. But I almost feel like a court is needed for it and again dang tthe court gets expensive with the characters I want lol.
The thing with the Decurion is that it makes certain units , (Tomb Blades, Flayed Ones) , just insanely good for their price which is why I'm all like , yeah do a foot slogging mass bodies walking army w/ Tomb Blades and Flayed ones.
I mean it's going to regardles be hard to kill 40 Warriors and 10 Immortals w/ 4+ saves. The add in everything else I think you can overwhelm your opponenet with sheer numbers.
Hollismason wrote: The thing with the Decurion is that it makes certain units , (Tomb Blades, Flayed Ones) , just insanely good for their price which is why I'm all like , yeah do a foot slogging mass bodies walking army w/ Tomb Blades and Flayed ones.
I mean it's going to regardles be hard to kill 40 Warriors and 10 Immortals w/ 4+ saves. The add in everything else I think you can overwhelm your opponenet with sheer numbers.
Do you think Triarch Stalkers are worth adding to a footslogging list, to get the BS increase? I like them and kind of want to run the judicator because I like the praetorians too. But the cost of the judicator is a deterrent for me.
Actually I think my decision would be between the judicator or a character heavy royal court.
The thing about vehicles (And this goes for all armies, not just Necrons) is that you usually can't just bring 1 or 2. If you do, then anything your opponent has that can kill it will be focused into it asap. Meltas, Lascannons, Railguns, etc. Target saturation is key, so 1 or 2 Stalkers with a bunch of foot units are just going to get focused out and killed. 2 Stalkers, a Ghost Ark, a CCB, maybe an ABarge or something are going to last longer, or at least one of them will.
Hollismason wrote: The thing with the Decurion is that it makes certain units , (Tomb Blades, Flayed Ones) , just insanely good for their price which is why I'm all like , yeah do a foot slogging mass bodies walking army w/ Tomb Blades and Flayed ones.
I mean it's going to regardles be hard to kill 40 Warriors and 10 Immortals w/ 4+ saves. The add in everything else I think you can overwhelm your opponenet with sheer numbers.
Do you think Triarch Stalkers are worth adding to a footslogging list, to get the BS increase? I like them and kind of want to run the judicator because I like the praetorians too. But the cost of the judicator is a deterrent for me.
Actually I think my decision would be between the judicator or a character heavy royal court.
I actually don't think the Judicator battalion is bad but you gotta remember those are going to be your heavy hitting troops , which isn't terrible ST5 Rending is not a bad model. 3+ 4++ is swell as well with T5.
I think people miss out that these guys are equivalent to Nurgle Troops w/ a better FNP and a better shooting and assault.
I'm in the process of building up my necrons and the list I'm shooting for to begin with has 2 stalkers and 2 ghost arks. This is in addition to 15 tomb blades, 20 warriors, 20 praetorians, 5 immortals and an overlord. 4 vehicles, and 61 infantry is a pretty good spread, especially if the warriors and the immortals go in front of the vehicles to provide a living cover wall.
Hollismason wrote: The thing with the Decurion is that it makes certain units , (Tomb Blades, Flayed Ones) , just insanely good for their price which is why I'm all like , yeah do a foot slogging mass bodies walking army w/ Tomb Blades and Flayed ones.
I mean it's going to regardles be hard to kill 40 Warriors and 10 Immortals w/ 4+ saves. The add in everything else I think you can overwhelm your opponenet with sheer numbers.
To me the game has never worked out that way, and I've played 40K for 20+ years. The question should be what do you think those Warriors and Immortals and Tomb Blades are actually going to do except walk around and look tough. The army needs something to actually kill units with, and no, gauss flayers don't kill units. Who's going to kill Wave Serpents? Who's going to kill 3 Wraithknights? Who's going to drop the 3 or 5 Flyrants? Who's going to fight the Centstar? Who's going to fight the flying Daemons? The Warriors, Flayed Ones and Tomb Blades aren't even obsec units in these 'spam plans'.
All I hear is yaddayadda it takes X amount of bolters to kill my Necron Warriors. If this is a tactica I'd actually like people to mention what they intend to do with their units instead of endless mathhammer. I'm not being disingenuous -- I'd actually like to hear what people intend to do with their walking fodder. We've established that Necrons are the most durable army in the game to shooting damage. Unless you pick dedicated assault units and heroes, they can't handle assaults at all, and are prone to getting swept. Now, what's the playstyle that minimises the Necron weaknesses and maximises on the strengths?
To me it seems the Necrons with Leviathan allies, or a balanced Decurion with both a Canoptek Harvest and a Destroyer Cult.
Well that may be your meta but mine doesn't lean toward Netlists at all, I've never played a army that had 5 Flyrants , and if any of my friends did that we'd rag him so hard he'd quit.
It's just your community. I don't base my armies on some mythical anti army that's going to be facing. Sure if I took it to Adepticon or some place like that I'd say think about it.
Otherwise no, just build balanced armies that are strong on their own merits.
Again basing your army list to beat some mythical army that you heard of at a tournament in Las Vegas, doesn't mean you are going to face that army.
So I have 3 ghost arks, but one could easily be changed back to a doomsday cannon. I used to run 3 arks 3 annihilation barges and some scythes at 1500, but with the new doomsday cannon I am considering it.
Hollismason wrote: Well that may be your meta but mine doesn't lean toward Netlists at all, I've never played a army that had 5 Flyrants , and if any of my friends did that we'd rag him so hard he'd quit.
It's just your community. I don't base my armies on some mythical anti army that's going to be facing. Sure if I took it to Adepticon or some place like that I'd say think about it.
Otherwise no, just build balanced armies that are strong on their own merits.
Again basing your army list to beat some mythical army that you heard of at a tournament in Las Vegas, doesn't mean you are going to face that army.
It's actually a terrible idea to do that.
I don't quite follow. What do Las Vegas armies have to do with what I wrote? I think the armies that were represented there are fairly common and exist all over the globe at gaming clubs and tournaments. Regardless of that, all I asked is why people want to spam Warriors or Flayed Ones? Is it because it's fun to have a ton of the same guy, or is there an actual tactical reason behind it? If there is, I'd like to know what it is.
The answer shouldn't be "well of course they don't beat the good armies, if my friends ever played a good army we'd laugh at him so much he would quit the game" but an actual explanation why you chose your units. If you don't like explaining yourself, I'm not sure why you're here.
Instead of thinking " What's the mythical" army I may face, you should base your list on just solid tactics and synergy. You listed a whole bunch of BS, but that's literally all it is.
Sorry, when I make a army I just say is this going to be strong? Does it have X does it do X , okay that's my army.
I don't take into consideration, EVER that I may face some BS crazy Netlist because that's not what is played amongst us so I don't have to worry about it and other people shouldn't.
The idea that there is a 40k "meta" is insane. The only Meta you should worry about is what your friends play and who you play localy.
Hollismason wrote: Instead of thinking " What's the mythical" army I may face, you should base your list on just solid tactics and synergy. You listed a whole bunch of BS, but that's literally all it is.
Sorry, when I make a army I just say is this going to be strong? Does it have X does it do X , okay that's my army.
I don't take into consideration, EVER that I may face some BS crazy Netlist because that's not what is played amongst us so I don't have to worry about it and other people shouldn't.
The idea that there is a 40k "meta" is insane. The only Meta you should worry about is what your friends play and who you play localy.
Are you familiar with the concept of a metagame? You should absolutely think what mythical army you might face, as long as those mythical armies are based in reality. You're accustomed to selecting units without thinking how they will actually do against common threats?
Why would you give advice on army lists and unit selections on an internet message board if all you play against are your few friends? That's your gaming environment, but it's not ours. Likewise you could take it easy on the strawmen, because in reality all I was doing is being critical towards the suggestions given.
If someone suggests players to use 50 Necron Warriors, I'm going to ask why, and continue to ask what they will do against X or Y or Z. If someone suggests to spam slots full of Tomb Blades, I'll ask why, and continue to ask what they will do against X or Y or Z. To you that's "whole bunch of BS" but to me that's the only reasonable approach a man can take to advice given by guys on the internet. Guys who by their own words consider common tournament armies 'mythical opponents" and never have to play against them because they only play beerhammer.
If you don't have any other reasons for your unit selections, just answer with a "I picked these units because I like the way they look" instead of getting all hostile to those who are trying to stay on topic.
New Necron player here and was wondering if a AV 13 list was still viable? Was thinking of something like the folowing. Whats the opinion of more experienced players?
1845pts
CAD *HQ Catacomb Command Barge
*Troops
10 x Warriors
Ghost Ark
10 x Warriors
Ghost Ark
* Heavy Support
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Also i will be playing a 1850 game this weekend against a Farsight enclave Triptide Tau list "spamming" crisis suits as troops (also sometimes uses farsight as commander with the 8 supported with broadsides). What would be the best pure necron counter list to handle this?
What would be the best pure necron counter list to handle this?
I'm pretty sure the new Wraiths will do very well as they don't really care much about missile pods, ion accelerators or plasma rifles. Once they reach combat they'll wreck things fast.
I'm not sure what types of units you have available and if you want to play Decurion or not, but a unit or two of Wraiths will hold their own really well, and three units wouldn't be out of the question either (in a CAD).
New Necron player here and was wondering if a AV 13 list was still viable? Was thinking of something like the folowing. Whats the opinion of more experienced players?
1845pts
CAD *HQ Catacomb Command Barge
*Troops
10 x Warriors
Ghost Ark
10 x Warriors
Ghost Ark
* Heavy Support
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Also i will be playing a 1850 game this weekend against a Farsight enclave Triptide Tau list "spamming" crisis suits as troops (also sometimes uses farsight as commander with the 8 supported with broadsides). What would be the best pure necron counter list to handle this?
Thx before hand for any response
Not really sure how the new CCB will rank up to the old one. Now you don't want to charge stuff that much. Personally I would rather have my warlord in a flyer for an AV13 spam list.
If's hard for me to change my mentality on special characters and HQs. With my other armies they are expensive and somewhat sub par, or they are amazing and super expensive. Necrons have surprisingly well priced and potent special characters!
Hollismason wrote: Instead of thinking " What's the mythical" army I may face, you should base your list on just solid tactics and synergy. You listed a whole bunch of BS, but that's literally all it is.
Sorry, when I make a army I just say is this going to be strong? Does it have X does it do X , okay that's my army.
I don't take into consideration, EVER that I may face some BS crazy Netlist because that's not what is played amongst us so I don't have to worry about it and other people shouldn't.
The idea that there is a 40k "meta" is insane. The only Meta you should worry about is what your friends play and who you play localy.
Are you familiar with the concept of a metagame? You should absolutely think what mythical army you might face, as long as those mythical armies are based in reality. You're accustomed to selecting units without thinking how they will actually do against common threats?
Why would you give advice on army lists and unit selections on an internet message board if all you play against are your few friends? That's your gaming environment, but it's not ours. Likewise you could take it easy on the strawmen, because in reality all I was doing is being critical towards the suggestions given.
If someone suggests players to use 50 Necron Warriors, I'm going to ask why, and continue to ask what they will do against X or Y or Z. If someone suggests to spam slots full of Tomb Blades, I'll ask why, and continue to ask what they will do against X or Y or Z. To you that's "whole bunch of BS" but to me that's the only reasonable approach a man can take to advice given by guys on the internet. Guys who by their own words consider common tournament armies 'mythical opponents" and never have to play against them because they only play beerhammer.
If you don't have any other reasons for your unit selections, just answer with a "I picked these units because I like the way they look" instead of getting all hostile to those who are trying to stay on topic.
I pick armies based on what I feel is a strong synergy between units and Take All Comers potetional, sorry but saying well what do you do if you face 5 Flyrants and a Lynx etc... is just bad because it doesn't get to the core of what's not working.
Asking a generalistic question like " You have no flyer defense what do you do against that?" is better than making a specific question regarding a specific army that you may in fact never face.
Advice that's generalistic is better than specific unless asked.
Because we can play the what if? X game all day and it get's no where because eventually you have to realize that you will not be able to make a counter for the infinite possibilities out there. That's the whole point there's a infinite number of possible army combinations there are in the game. So why not just give good advice, it's why I can't stand those questions because what if what if just make good lists.
Hollismason wrote: Instead of thinking " What's the mythical" army I may face, you should base your list on just solid tactics and synergy. You listed a whole bunch of BS, but that's literally all it is.
Sorry, when I make a army I just say is this going to be strong? Does it have X does it do X , okay that's my army.
I don't take into consideration, EVER that I may face some BS crazy Netlist because that's not what is played amongst us so I don't have to worry about it and other people shouldn't.
The idea that there is a 40k "meta" is insane. The only Meta you should worry about is what your friends play and who you play localy.
Are you familiar with the concept of a metagame? You should absolutely think what mythical army you might face, as long as those mythical armies are based in reality. You're accustomed to selecting units without thinking how they will actually do against common threats?
Why would you give advice on army lists and unit selections on an internet message board if all you play against are your few friends? That's your gaming environment, but it's not ours. Likewise you could take it easy on the strawmen, because in reality all I was doing is being critical towards the suggestions given.
If someone suggests players to use 50 Necron Warriors, I'm going to ask why, and continue to ask what they will do against X or Y or Z. If someone suggests to spam slots full of Tomb Blades, I'll ask why, and continue to ask what they will do against X or Y or Z. To you that's "whole bunch of BS" but to me that's the only reasonable approach a man can take to advice given by guys on the internet. Guys who by their own words consider common tournament armies 'mythical opponents" and never have to play against them because they only play beerhammer.
If you don't have any other reasons for your unit selections, just answer with a "I picked these units because I like the way they look" instead of getting all hostile to those who are trying to stay on topic.
I pick armies based on what I feel is a strong synergy between units and Take All Comers potetional, sorry but saying well what do you do if you face 5 Flyrants and a Lynx etc... is just bad because it doesn't get to the core of what's not working.
Asking a generalistic question like " You have no flyer defense what do you do against that?" is better than making a specific question regarding a specific army that you may in fact never face.
Advice that's generalistic is better than specific unless asked.
Because we can play the what if? X game all day and it get's no where because eventually you have to realize that you will not be able to make a counter for the infinite possibilities out there. That's the whole point there's a infinite number of possible army combinations there are in the game. So why not just give good advice, it's why I can't stand those questions because what if what if just make good lists.
I actually have no idea what argument you're trying to make here. If you just play casual, fun games with your friends, then don't go into a tactics forum and ask for advice. People are going to talk about the strongest lists that are out there and how to beat them. You don't see 5 Flyrants with your buddies? That doesn't matter to us. It's a realistic list that players have to deal with and the Tactics forum is used to discuss that.
"General advice" is going to be against the things that are strong in the game right now. Advice like "Your list can't deal with Serpentspam" is very good advice because the things that people keeping up with the game are going to see include lots of Wave Serpents. If your local meta doesn't play with Wave Serpents, cool. That's fine. But the rest of the world isn't your local meta.
If a Triarch Stalker is taken as part of a separate CAD, would its BS bubble work on units in the Decurian as well?
And can names characters swap out their default weapon. Sounds like a stupid question, I'm sure they can. But I just realized they don't have that notes that says may take items from blah blah blah
What would be the best pure necron counter list to handle this?
I'm pretty sure the new Wraiths will do very well as they don't really care much about missile pods, ion accelerators or plasma rifles. Once they reach combat they'll wreck things fast.
I'm not sure what types of units you have available and if you want to play Decurion or not, but a unit or two of Wraiths will hold their own really well, and three units wouldn't be out of the question either (in a CAD).
I have access to most units, so theoretically any suggestion works. I prefer to run Decurion but can also rund CAD if you consider that stronger. Would you run whipcoils on all the Wraiths or do you think the "transdimentional beamer" is better? Since if i run the wraiths in Canoptek harvest formations they get relentless and can shoot the beams and still charge afterwards? (With the beams there is a chance of instakilling his Riptides since the beams are insta death on a 6)
mike208 wrote: If a Triarch Stalker is taken as part of a separate CAD, would its BS bubble work on units in the Decurian as well?
Yes, what leads you to believe it might not.
mike208 wrote: And can names characters swap out their default weapon. Sounds like a stupid question, I'm sure they can. But I just realized they don't have that notes that says may take items from blah blah blah
Does their datasheet give them the option to do so? Something like this from the Overlord's datasheet:
• May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Technoarcana and/or Artefacts of the Aeons lists.
If its not listed as an option to do so, then no they can not.
changemod wrote: Thinking of trying this list out soon. My collection is only one Destroyer Lord and two Heavy Destroyers short of it:
Destroyer Cult 1:
Destroyer Lord with Voidreaper, Phase Shifter, Phylactery and Resurrection Orb.
Three Destroyers, joined by both their own Lord and the other Lord to form an assault unit.
Three Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer.
Three Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer.
Three Heavy Destroyers.
Destroyer Cult 2:
Destroyer Lord with Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Phylactery and Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.
Three Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer.
Three Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer.
Three Destroyers and a Heavy Destroyer.
Three Heavy Destroyers.
Deathbringer Flight:
Doom Scythe.
Doom Scythe.
Codex: Daleks, anyone?
It`s pretty nasty, might have trouble with the green tide but looks interesting, building a destroyer cult of my own so would like to know how you've found them so far. Not sure if you need the void reaper on the lord, fleshbane doesn't help tremendously considering your str7, you might consider the shroud as the 2+/4++/5+++ is stupid durable plus fear is a nice bonus against the occasional army and gives it something to do the shooting phase before assault.
mike208 wrote: If a Triarch Stalker is taken as part of a separate CAD, would its BS bubble work on units in the Decurian as well?
Yes, what leads you to believe it might not.
mike208 wrote: And can names characters swap out their default weapon. Sounds like a stupid question, I'm sure they can. But I just realized they don't have that notes that says may take items from blah blah blah
Does their datasheet give them the option to do so? Something like this from the Overlord's datasheet:
• May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Technoarcana and/or Artefacts of the Aeons lists.
If its not listed as an option to do so, then no they can not.
A noobish understanding of the rules, lol. Wasn't sure if one CAD rules could affect another(or decurion in this case)
Yeah after(actually as, as you can tell by my wording) I posted that I realized they were stuck with what they had. Just seems dumb that Zandrekh only has a staff of light.
Punisher wrote: It`s pretty nasty, might have trouble with the green tide but looks interesting, building a destroyer cult of my own so would like to know how you've found them so far. Not sure if you need the void reaper on the lord, fleshbane doesn't help tremendously considering your str7, you might consider the shroud as the 2+/4++/5+++ is stupid durable plus fear is a nice bonus against the occasional army and gives it something to do the shooting phase before assault.
Yeah, if there's enough assault units covering enough of the board that I can't jet out of their reach it might be a problem.
I've only used my cult at min+3 Heavy, besides one 500 point skirmish (Caused a turn two forfeit, ducking out of line of sight whilst shredding everything without a good cover save was nasty at that level) so far, but it works very well for me and combos nicely with the benefits of the Deathbringer flight for further fire support.
As for Voidreaper vs Nightmare Shroud, a Warscythe and Shroud is quite a bit pricier and the Voidreaper is a solid Monstrous Creature answer, which is good to have in my meta. Plus, thematically apt and the reroll for one hit is good in a low number of hits unit.
I'd agree that a 2+ would be pretty nice to have though.
Hollismason wrote: Instead of thinking " What's the mythical" army I may face, you should base your list on just solid tactics and synergy. You listed a whole bunch of BS, but that's literally all it is.
Sorry, when I make a army I just say is this going to be strong? Does it have X does it do X , okay that's my army.
I don't take into consideration, EVER that I may face some BS crazy Netlist because that's not what is played amongst us so I don't have to worry about it and other people shouldn't.
The idea that there is a 40k "meta" is insane. The only Meta you should worry about is what your friends play and who you play localy.
I play at tournaments once or twice a month. My other regular gamer friends play very competitive lists. That's what I do for fun. Suspect quite a lot of others here are similar. Most of the tactics threads on here are based on competitive play, rather than casual pick-up games. The last tournament I went to had 3 or 4 of the armies out of 30 with 3+ Hive Tyrants.
However I think my multiple Destroyer cult Decurion list above would have a good chance against competitive Nids. Let's all try to have our own brand of fun without condemning other peoples'.
If that's what your scene is then play to it but don't expect other's scenes to be the same and offer up advice like " X is terrible because of Y" is my point.
To get back on topic though I think footslogging lists are difficult to deal with especially with FMCs as they take up a large foot print and can buffer and bubble wrap objectives effectively. That's why I feel like taking 5 Flyrants against a army that's got 60+ models isn't going to allow them to fly around with impunity till the last turn then land to grab. It's just not gonna happen, they'll have to ground first then assault or stay in the air and just be ineffectve. Especially Necrons even with Flyrants shooting and Templates their resiliency even on basic troops is enough that 5 Flyrants won't grind down a unit with a 5+ Invulnerable , 4+ RP and Mawlocs aren't going to be effective against that either.
So what do you do with 60 Necron Warriors in 3 20 Man Squads against 5 Flyrants?
You give them no where to land and kill any ground units , thats all you do, just sit on objectives in cover and make them come to you bubble wrap Objectives with them.
Which has always been my Philosophy with large beefy units, especially units like Flayed Ones, which I think are preferable to Warriors despite not having the shooting just because they make people move. They suck against Walkers..
Just got back from a 16 person 3 round tournament. Brought a modified wraith star list, and I'm really happy with how it performed. I definitely could have won all three games if I hadn't grossly misplayed some things (like forgetting I could move 12" with a Ghost Ark in the movement phase. Or if I had realized during my movement phase that one game was going to end on turn 3. Or if I could count. Yes, I tied instead of won one because of a counting error that I made)
It was an ETC format tournament with kill point differentials as part of the total victory point count for each game. So first blood was a point. Kill point differential maxed out at 8. Eternal war objectives tended to be 3 each, and maelstrom tallied up over the course of the game. Because of the kill point differential, my list:
Destroyer Lord w/Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Res Orb, Phylactery
Orikan the Diviner
The first game I played against some shenanigans with 2 Wraithknights, the Fortress of Redemption, four squads of Eldar jetbikes, along with dark reapers (fast shot exarch) as well as Maugan Ra. There were some spirit seers as well. Seemed like kind of a small list but that's what Phoenix lords and the fortress do apparently. The only thing that completely foiled the wraiths all tournament was that stupid building. Couldn't hop on top of the battlements because he owned the building and couldn't get over it entirely because he had his units hiding right behind it. Was really annoying, and I wound up losing my immortals whole being in ongoing reserves due to the fortress shooting down the night scythe the turn I was going to drop the immortals on an objective. That plus my abundant knowledge of how vehicles work took the game for him. Observations from that game: Nightbringer does WORK. I didn't use his ability to shoot into combat, though the TO ruled that I could because I could tell he was the kind of player who wouldn't have taken it well. And apparently it didn't matter anyway when the Nightbringer just went into combat and slapped the wraithknight around like a little girl anyhow. Wound up giving up three kill points, two of which were the plane and the ongoing-reserves screw up.
The second game was against a Draigo-led cent star (6 cents w/grav and hurricane bolters, plus tiggy, Draigo and another ML3 psyker) and 2 Dreadknights. Also had 2 rhino troops and a squad of scouts. I had to chuckle as he rolled his psychic powers and said repeatedly, "oh wait, those wraiths don't care about that" He decided that it would be a good idea to try and charge a squad of wraiths turn one with both Dreadknights. It might have been a better idea if I didn't have a second wraith squad (not Orikan Star) backing it up, as well as the Nightbringer. As it was, the first Dreadknight was first blood (mostly due to the Nightbringer), followed by the second one a turn later. Wound up killing three wraiths as a trade. In that game, the gating cent-star managed to make the tanking D Lord work for his saves, but a popped res orb and a few look out sirs meant that he survived two entire rounds of cent star shooting with a single wound left, and two additional wraiths died. I said what the heck and decided to charge Draigo star with the Orikan Star and another unit of wraiths. By the end of 3, one wraith unit (not Orikan star) had died, giving him his only kill point of the game. Orikan star had lost one more wraith, and CentStar had been mostly decimated. He decided to use Draigo to kill wraiths from the normal squad instead of trying to kill off my Warlord and/or Orikan, who had gone super Saiyan. Not what I would have done, but ok. Since it ended on 3 (which I didn't realize until my assault phase that it would be even possible, with me having first turn) I grossly misplayed the last turn. If I had dropped my immortals out of the night scythe, I would have won. Game goes on to 4 and it's not even close. Game goes on to 5 and he would be tabled except for maybe Draigo. But he was getting destroyed so I was glad that he pulled out the magical tie. It's a good feeling and I wasn't likely going to place at that point anyhow.
Third game was complete annihilation for a really cool Ork player. He had 5 battlewagons (3 lootas, 1 burna + Warlord w/mega armor & lucky stikk, 1 MANZ). I maxed out my points, and the Destroyer Lord gave the giant middle finger to a battle wagon full of Burnas. I don't even remember how many re-rollable 2+ he made. Didn't even have to pop his res orb the entire game. Nightbringer stared them to death (so much so that he wound up shooting a battlewagon instead. Rolled up the D shot, and rolled a 1 to wound like a champ. That exact sequence happened 2 times in 3 games). The wraiths had some decently hot saves early, which helped because he wound up killing 13 of the 18 by the end of the game. I had Orikan, the Lord, 2 wraiths and then 3 other wraiths. Plus everyone else, but a lot of wraiths died. Only gave up a single kill point that game.
Overall observations:
Completely in love with the Nightbringer. He is a MAN. But check with your local gaming group about how he works because it is very unclear. Can he gaze into/out of combat? At invisible units/flyers? If you answered yes to some/all of these you should definitely give him a shot. Even so, I'll be experimenting with the Conclave in games that don't care so much about kill points, and obviously get some tomb blades in there.
Wraiths are the terror that everyone thought they would be. T5 is super annoying.
Orikan is a beast. When he's buffing up a unit, what he takes away from the Wraiths (ignoring cover movement penalties, basically) is completely worth what he gives back. And his AP 2 is definitely great in that unit.
The destroyer lord WILL NOT DIE when he has a 2+, then 2+, then 4+ (then once a game another 4+ for a phase). If it's not AP 2, just don't shoot at him. Didn't really need the phylactery, but if I rolled the regen it would have been nice. 3 wounds go so fast it seems like.
I think that a Phalanx-based list could benefit from the inclusion of the Deceiver, if you have the points to spare. It's slow, but 24" on all of its shooting will keep it in range of the gunline, and H&R mitigates the threat posed by assault units that would chew through your Warriors and Immortals, but not the Deceiver.
The -2 LD aura can be double-edged, though, because ideally you would want the Deceiver to keep the enemy tied up for two rounds of assault before either splitting with H&R or making them break.
On another note, how are the new Doom Scythes performing? The Deathbringer Flight looks like a nice addition to a list since it can target multiple types of units.
Requizen wrote: The thing about vehicles (And this goes for all armies, not just Necrons) is that you usually can't just bring 1 or 2. If you do, then anything your opponent has that can kill it will be focused into it asap. Meltas, Lascannons, Railguns, etc. Target saturation is key, so 1 or 2 Stalkers with a bunch of foot units are just going to get focused out and killed. 2 Stalkers, a Ghost Ark, a CCB, maybe an ABarge or something are going to last longer, or at least one of them will.
Same reason why an army with no vehicles at all works out well. It forces the enemy AV to play out less efficiently
New Necron player here and was wondering if a AV 13 list was still viable? Was thinking of something like the folowing. Whats the opinion of more experienced players?
1845pts
CAD *HQ Catacomb Command Barge
*Troops
10 x Warriors
Ghost Ark
10 x Warriors
Ghost Ark
* Heavy Support
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
Also i will be playing a 1850 game this weekend against a Farsight enclave Triptide Tau list "spamming" crisis suits as troops (also sometimes uses farsight as commander with the 8 supported with broadsides). What would be the best pure necron counter list to handle this?
Thx before hand for any response
Not really sure how the new CCB will rank up to the old one. Now you don't want to charge stuff that much. Personally I would rather have my warlord in a flyer for an AV13 spam list.
If's hard for me to change my mentality on special characters and HQs. With my other armies they are expensive and somewhat sub par, or they are amazing and super expensive. Necrons have surprisingly well priced and potent special characters!
I think the bargeLord works well in lists with a ton of tarpitters. The tarpitters do their thing and seek matches gainst the stuff that can CC armourbane the bargeLord, and once he is free from those threats he is highly mobile, nigh invulnerable to shooting, and solid against most CC units.
I've got a game2000pt scheduled this week, and since I can field it I'm fielding a full Destroyer Cult. Gonna see how that works out. Can't afford with the points to take a Decurion though. Although I may attempt to do it.
Hollismason wrote: I've got a game schedule this week, and since I can field it I'm fielding a full Destroyer Cult. Gonna see how that works out. Can't afford with the points to take a Decurion though. Although I may attempt to do it.
I like the 3x3 Heavy Destroyer in CAD. It would be interesting to compare the two performance wise. 50 point Heavy Destroyers are super nicely costed.
I've honestly though about a super unit of Destroyer Lords and how powerful that would be.. expensive but powerful with Flayed Ones, all 3 having Res Orbs. Then you mishap the whole unit though and they say goodbye.
The reason I'm advocating the huge price tag on the Destroyer Cult though mainly is seriously 36 ST5 Gauss AP3 shots that reroll wounds and armour pen. is crazy good.
A full Destroyer Cult is 995 points without Wargear on the Destroyer Lord.
Hollismason wrote: I've honestly though about a super unit of Destroyer Lords and how powerful that would be.. expensive but powerful with Flayed Ones, all 3 having Res Orbs. Then you mishap the whole unit though and they say goodbye.
The reason I'm advocating the huge price tag on the Destroyer Cult though mainly is seriously 36 ST5 Gauss AP3 shots that reroll wounds and armour pen. is crazy good.
A full Destroyer Cult is 995 points without Wargear on the Destroyer Lord.
I would love the D Cult 10x more if they didn't force you to run 2 Reg D + 1 HD in a min load out. I know you can run 3 x 3 Reg D and 3 HD, but the min load out is one I usually shave into a list and I don't like that config.
Honestly don't really mind the cost for the Destroyers, 40 ppm isn't terrible for a unit that has preferred enemy, and then rerolls all wounds and armour penetration, it just makes them insanely good. I think I'll tone it down to 5 per squad to fit more into the list though.
The 40ppm is a high cost until you consider that reroll all wounds and BS 4 w/ Preferred Enemy being almost equivalent to BS5.
Hollismason wrote: Honestly don't really mind the cost for the Destroyers, 40 ppm isn't terrible for a unit that has preferred enemy, and then rerolls all wounds and armour penetration, it just makes them insanely good. I think I'll tone it down to 5 per squad to fit more into the list though.
The 40ppm is a high cost until you consider that reroll all wounds and BS 4 w/ Preferred Enemy being almost equivalent to BS5.
They work against Marines.
But their damage output against hordes is too less.
Hollismason wrote: Honestly don't really mind the cost for the Destroyers, 40 ppm isn't terrible for a unit that has preferred enemy, and then rerolls all wounds and armour penetration, it just makes them insanely good. I think I'll tone it down to 5 per squad to fit more into the list though.
The 40ppm is a high cost until you consider that reroll all wounds and BS 4 w/ Preferred Enemy being almost equivalent to BS5.
They work against Marines.
But their damage output against hordes is too less.
Agreed. They can also struggle against vehicle heavy armies if you are heavily invested in normal destroyers.
However, the worst situation for them that I have noticed so far, is when fighting against other necrons.
Cover saves + RP really farts all over a destroyer cults damage output.
Hollismason wrote: I've got a game2000pt scheduled this week, and since I can field it I'm fielding a full Destroyer Cult. Gonna see how that works out. Can't afford with the points to take a Decurion though. Although I may attempt to do it.
Went to a 1250 team tournament yesterday. Special force org so at least 3 troops and need to use all available troops before you can select the same one again. Then no more than 1 of every other category
Overlord, Veil, Warscythe, Gauntlet of Fire
135
5 Immortals, Gauss, Night Scythe
215
16 Warriors, Ghost Ark
313
16 Warriors
208
5 Wraiths, Whipcoils
215
Doom Scythe
160
Game 1 was against a Guard gunline (cant remember his list a blob squad, lascannon team, heavy bolter team, autocannon team, vet squad, scions, yarrick, psyker..I think) and was my first game in about 5 months and first game with a non marine army. Ended up getting slaughtered. Just too much cover so all my shooting was rubbish and the dice just abaonded me. Was an eternal war mission and he ended up sitting on 3 objectives for the win. Wraiths took a ton of firepower to put down though.
Game 2 was against marines (captain, 2 tac squads, 2 scouts squads and a las pred) and went much better. Maelstrom this time which I personally prefer. Was the one with the vanguard deployment and 3 objectives (name escapes me). Turn 1 was fairely uneventful he podded his captain and tactical squad infront of my wraiths who did no damage to them. Next turn my doom Scythe came on and took out his predator I veiled my lord and his warriors over to the other side of the table which was what changed the game for me. Wraiths tied up his captain for the entire game I picked apart his units with combined fire and got some great cards. One of the best being the Necron specific hold all the odd/even objectives. I rolled even and already had easy access to 2 and 4 and then I managed to also claim 3 after shooting his scouts off the table which handily stacked with the generic hold any 3 objectives card for 2D3 objectives. Ended up winning 18-1
Game 3 was against Tempestus (he had a command squad, 4 units in taurox's and Valkyrie) and was nothing short of a massacre. Tactical Escalation mission this time. Put my wraiths up 1 side and 1 of the warriors with the ghost ark up the other. Held my Lords swuad back to claim my only card which was objective 5 which was in my deployment zone. He spent all his turn shooting at the wraiths which did nothing. Next turn both flyers game in and just started removing units. Night scythe dropped off the immortals and took out one taurox while the immortals wrecked another. Ghost ark took one down. Doom scythe was overkill here but thats not always a bad thing. Lords squad veiled up and shot at a unit while the other warriors moved up slightly anf got a few pot shots off. Wraiths charged a squad and took them out. I cant quite remember what objectives I claimed in that turn. Last couple turns were more of the same there was nothing he could do as he was spending so much firepower taking down the wraiths and he just couldnt. I multi assaulted his command squad and another squad taking out his command squad. I tabled him in turn 4 and scored a huge amount of objectives that turn. I had Thrall of the silent king along with slaughter the living, I had assassinate, psychological warfare and behind enemy lines giving me a total of 9 points from those cards. Finished him off in his turn and won 20-0
So after a shakey start (but hey have to lose your first game with a brand new army) they performed very well. Three fun games so now just need to get some more models painted up for some bigger games at the usual gaming night.
I've been looking at the most recent 5-6 pages of this thread, so please forgive me if it's already been covered, but what about Crypteks? Granted, they took a major hit in the abilities they could be kitted out for (no more staves). However, if you took a Royal court, they seem like they could easily buff a foot spam or MSU list with +1 to RP rolls and a 5+ invul. save.
Example would be 10-man Gauss Immortals with a Chronotek each to hold objectives or to threaten vehicles.
aceytrixx wrote: Went to a 1250 team tournament yesterday. Special force org so at least 3 troops and need to use all available troops before you can select the same one again. Then no more than 1 of every other category
Overlord, Veil, Warscythe, Gauntlet of Fire
135
5 Immortals, Gauss, Night Scythe
215
16 Warriors, Ghost Ark
313
16 Warriors
208
5 Wraiths, Whipcoils
215
Doom Scythe
160
Game 1 was against a Guard gunline (cant remember his list a blob squad, lascannon team, heavy bolter team, autocannon team, vet squad, scions, yarrick, psyker..I think) and was my first game in about 5 months and first game with a non marine army. Ended up getting slaughtered. Just too much cover so all my shooting was rubbish and the dice just abaonded me. Was an eternal war mission and he ended up sitting on 3 objectives for the win. Wraiths took a ton of firepower to put down though.
Game 2 was against marines (captain, 2 tac squads, 2 scouts squads and a las pred) and went much better. Maelstrom this time which I personally prefer. Was the one with the vanguard deployment and 3 objectives (name escapes me). Turn 1 was fairely uneventful he podded his captain and tactical squad infront of my wraiths who did no damage to them. Next turn my doom Scythe came on and took out his predator I veiled my lord and his warriors over to the other side of the table which was what changed the game for me. Wraiths tied up his captain for the entire game I picked apart his units with combined fire and got some great cards. One of the best being the Necron specific hold all the odd/even objectives. I rolled even and already had easy access to 2 and 4 and then I managed to also claim 3 after shooting his scouts off the table which handily stacked with the generic hold any 3 objectives card for 2D3 objectives. Ended up winning 18-1
Game 3 was against Tempestus (he had a command squad, 4 units in taurox's and Valkyrie) and was nothing short of a massacre. Tactical Escalation mission this time. Put my wraiths up 1 side and 1 of the warriors with the ghost ark up the other. Held my Lords swuad back to claim my only card which was objective 5 which was in my deployment zone. He spent all his turn shooting at the wraiths which did nothing. Next turn both flyers game in and just started removing units. Night scythe dropped off the immortals and took out one taurox while the immortals wrecked another. Ghost ark took one down. Doom scythe was overkill here but thats not always a bad thing. Lords squad veiled up and shot at a unit while the other warriors moved up slightly anf got a few pot shots off. Wraiths charged a squad and took them out. I cant quite remember what objectives I claimed in that turn. Last couple turns were more of the same there was nothing he could do as he was spending so much firepower taking down the wraiths and he just couldnt. I multi assaulted his command squad and another squad taking out his command squad. I tabled him in turn 4 and scored a huge amount of objectives that turn. I had Thrall of the silent king along with slaughter the living, I had assassinate, psychological warfare and behind enemy lines giving me a total of 9 points from those cards. Finished him off in his turn and won 20-0
So after a shakey start (but hey have to lose your first game with a brand new army) they performed very well. Three fun games so now just need to get some more models painted up for some bigger games at the usual gaming night.
I was at the same tournament in Edinburgh and ran the following:
Necron Decurion
Reclamation Legion Formation
2 units of 10 warriors
1 unit of 5 gauss equipped immortals
1 unit of 3 tomb blades with shield vanes and nebulouscopes on all 3
1 catacomb command barge with war scythe, Phylactery, and gauntlet of fire
Canoptek Harvest
1 unit of 3 scarabs
1 unit of 1 spyder with twin linked particle beamer
1 unit of 3 wraiths with whip coils on all 3
Judicator Battalion
1 unit of 1 Triarch Stalker with Heat Ray
2 units of 5 Triarch Praetorians with rods of the covenant on all 5 from both units
First round I went up against an Acheron knight, with drop pod terminator, and bike squad with librarian and mounted HQ. We rolled into Maelstrom with escalating tacos. I was on the play and moved up to claim battlements (with sky fire quads) and automated gun sentries (which never accomplished anything all game). The response play was to move into center field with the Knight and bash the battlements, flaming the Warriors in center and stomping the tomb blades. Further he dropped his terminator behind the same squad and flamed. However, and as was typical for the day, all this firepower merely killed the TB squad and stripped an HP off the CCB. My reply was to gauss off 4 HP from the knight and entropic strike with scarabs, leaving only 1 hp left. In parallel, my he praetorians completely annihilated the entire bike squad and HQ, thanks to AP2. Time for the round ended just after the knight player's turn 2, with the knight locked in combat with the scarabs and the terminator stripping one more HP off the ccb. Win for the knight player 5-4 due to time.
Round two was a weird match against another super heavy list; quick summary: the Warriors stripped 8 hp off the daemon super heavy walker, while praetorians and tbs jumped around claiming objectives.
I had to leave before concluding round 3, so we drew. Round 4 was skipped.
Conclusion: gauss is great and praetorians are aces against standard size assault squads.
Dr. Temujin wrote: I've been looking at the most recent 5-6 pages of this thread, so please forgive me if it's already been covered, but what about Crypteks? Granted, they took a major hit in the abilities they could be kitted out for (no more staves). However, if you took a Royal court, they seem like they could easily buff a foot spam or MSU list with +1 to RP rolls and a 5+ invul. save.
Example would be 10-man Gauss Immortals with a Chronotek each to hold objectives or to threaten vehicles.
If you run a Decurion they are mostly redundant.
Otherwise the cost to provide that +1 RP and 5++ save verses shooting per squad, is as much as the MSU squad itself, so you're better off just taking twice as many guys.
Never mind the usefulness og Crypteks in a Decurion; they're nearly impossible to get them in there. Before you can add a single one you have to spend a bare minimum on 210 points on two Overlords and a Lord.
I have a question; let's say I play decurion and on a unit of warriors I have a cryptek. So I have 4+ rp. If I get hit from a s8 weapon then I get -1 at rp. Although I already have a+1 in stack and the special rule says cumulative. Do I get a 4+ or a 5+?
adamsouza wrote: If you run a Decurion they are mostly redundant.
Otherwise the cost to provide that +1 RP and 5++ save verses shooting per squad, is as much as the MSU squad itself, so you're better off just taking twice as many guys.
Well, . Guess that makes my custom Cryptek models near useless…
Even if you didn't take a Royal Court and stuck to the regular CAD, seems like they could make for a cheap HQ tax and beef up your Troops.
I think people forget the Royal court is a good way to get some Combos going, as you can take Obyron as the Lord and Orikan as a Crpytek, that leaves 2 Overlords at 80 points a piece which isn't terrible. So like 380 and it's not like Overlords are terrible, you've also got 4 HQs which is awesome and it's own mini death start honestly. Take 5 Lychguard.
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Res Orb
Overlord w/ Warscythe , Res Orb
Obyron
Orikan
5 Lychguard w/ Sword and Board
Good luck killing this unit that will never ever die statistically. Seriously for 2 Shooting Phases it can reroll it's 4+ , and reroll it's 3+. Good luck!!
Has anyone tried a 60 warriors and 3 ghost arks build? I'm working on building up all mine just now but I'm not sure if that's too many points at 2000/2500
Hollismason wrote: I think people forget the Royal court is a good way to get some Combos going, as you can take Obyron as the Lord and Orikan as a Crpytek, that leaves 2 Overlords at 80 points a piece which isn't terrible. So like 380 and it's not like Overlords are terrible, you've also got 4 HQs which is awesome and it's own mini death start honestly. Take 5 Lychguard.
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Res Orb
Overlord w/ Warscythe , Res Orb
Obyron
Orikan
5 Lychguard w/ Sword and Board
Good luck killing this unit that will never ever die statistically. Seriously for 2 Shooting Phases it can reroll it's 4+ , and reroll it's 3+. Good luck!!
Lacks hit and run. a good tar pit will remove it from the game.
Wraiths with rp, conscripts with a reroll 4+ invulnerable, a wraith knight.
My 36 block of conscripts can soak up 144 wounds from that unit when properly buffed.
Yes, that is true, however that statement can be made for all Necron Deathstars as it's impossible other than Zandrekh to get hit and run in the army.
A huge 50 man fearless blob if you in fact let them charge you will tarpit the unit. It is possible to bog it down with huge units but I wouldn't probably charge it with anything else.
That unit will straight up murder a Wraithknight and probably kill a squad of Wraiths as well eventually.
They need 5s to would a wraith knight their scythe. 18 hits to drop it. Goes up to 36 if a farseeer can give it a 4+ invulnerable.
The 5 Lychguard would average 0.41 wounds per round. Less if it has an invulnerable.
The Lychguard star is too slow to avoid fights with a tarpit. If a tarpit like the conscripts advance towards it they are forced to either charge it, be charged by it, or end up bullied and forced to move away from the tarpit.
aceytrixx wrote: Has anyone tried a 60 warriors and 3 ghost arks build? I'm working on building up all mine just now but I'm not sure if that's too many points at 2000/2500
No, but I'll let you know how it goes as soon I finish building my 3 Ghost Arks.
Played a tournament where I had to face a centstar, knight, and the stormraven, 2 storm talons formation. What would be the recommended way to try and deal with this. The only things I could think of was throw nightbringer at it with gaze/try tie them up or just ignore, but gate of infinity causes a lot of issues with trying to ignore it.
i successfully fielded necron for my first ever game with them.
Wraith wing + scarab farm. I know, very 5th ed.
The scarabs tied up thunder wolf cav. and a dread knight for an entire game while the wraith wing chewed through 10 grey hunter, 10 grey knight terminators, a grand master, and long fangs before claiming objectives.
my spiders did not do anything except for farming scarabs. when push comes to shove, what can spiders kill?
aceytrixx wrote: Has anyone tried a 60 warriors and 3 ghost arks build? I'm working on building up all mine just now but I'm not sure if that's too many points at 2000/2500
No, but I'll let you know how it goes as soon I finish building my 3 Ghost Arks.
That's what's holding me up. Such a pain to build. Got 1 built but need to get motivated to do the rest of them
No, but I'll let you know how it goes as soon I finish building my 3 Ghost Arks.
That's what's holding me up. Such a pain to build. Got 1 built but need to get motivated to do the rest of them
I'm in the same boat. I built a Doomsday Ark back when 5th ed codex dropped and swore I would never build the kit again, then around this time last year I ended up purchasing 2 more kits to make Ghost Arks. I am just now getting the first of those 2 painted (not full assembled) and I am dreading building the 2nd. ohh well. from what I have been seeing they will be well worth the many hours of agony
No, but I'll let you know how it goes as soon I finish building my 3 Ghost Arks.
That's what's holding me up. Such a pain to build. Got 1 built but need to get motivated to do the rest of them
I'm in the same boat. I built a Doomsday Ark back when 5th ed codex dropped and swore I would never build the kit again, then around this time last year I ended up purchasing 2 more kits to make Ghost Arks. I am just now getting the first of those 2 painted (not full assembled) and I am dreading building the 2nd. ohh well. from what I have been seeing they will be well worth the many hours of agony
Well I ran one with 2 16 strong units of warriors this past weekend at 1250 and it really irritated opponents with bringing back warriors that were a pain to kill in the first place. I can imagine 3 will definitly annoy people
I'm going to build mine as a Doomsday with a removable gun, then racks of dangling warriors by whatever hoops I need to leap through to make them hang down.
Oh, and of course all the little side guns will have to be magnetised for there to be a blind hope of storing it,
Don't bother magnetizing the guns, just don't glue them! If you whittle the cylinder part that sticks into the ark, they will rotate freely and you can position them up or down.
Magnetize where the transport portion meets with the pilot portion. Some green stuff for support, and 2 rare earth magnets on each side will hold it in just fine. Then you can break it in half when its destroyed and for transport. The part with the warriors is about as long and wide as a rhino, it fits snug in a battlefoam rhino slot. I have a 3 rhino slot foam and it transports 2 arks really easily.
Here is a pic, I had magnetized all my warriors, but the doomsday ark was just not that good so I glued them in.
Now I am hoping my 3rd ark can be broken in half and turned into a doomsday. Though I am pretty sure I sold/traded all 3 of my cannons... crap.
Going to get a box of 10 lychguard soon. Seems like sword/board is the best choice for running them, anyone make praetorians? Doesn't seem like it will be possible to do any sort of magnetizing with them.
Praetorians bring lots of much needed AP2. Don't put them out in front of stuff and they are spectacular at wiping out units already locked in assault, deep striking and wiping out objective campers, or clearing your backfield speedily.
There is a reason the spyder costs 50 points. What do you expect? It's a support unit meant to be making scarabs, fixing vehicles, and protecting from psychic powers.
Alcibiades wrote: There is a reason the spyder costs 50 points. What do you expect? It's a support unit meant to be making scarabs, fixing vehicles, and protecting from psychic powers.
Exactly. Saying "but it won't stand up to dedicated melee specialists"....well neither do my Rippers, who are 5 points cheaper. But with str 6, AP 2 and the possibility to smash, it's not too shabby for 50pts
gwarsh41 wrote: Don't bother magnetizing the guns, just don't glue them! If you whittle the cylinder part that sticks into the ark, they will rotate freely and you can position them up or down.
Heard of that option, but I'm somewhat concerned that the point where it rotates freely but still stays in position will be really hard to find.
First time I tried to build an ark was right after I started the hobby, and I ended up messing it up badly enough that I chopped it back up and converted a Tesseract Ark from the bits instead.
Magnetize where the transport portion meets with the pilot portion. Some green stuff for support, and 2 rare earth magnets on each side will hold it in just fine. Then you can break it in half when its destroyed and for transport. The part with the warriors is about as long and wide as a rhino, it fits snug in a battlefoam rhino slot. I have a 3 rhino slot foam and it transports 2 arks really easily.
Here is a pic, I had magnetized all my warriors, but the doomsday ark was just not that good so I glued them in.
Now I am hoping my 3rd ark can be broken in half and turned into a doomsday. Though I am pretty sure I sold/traded all 3 of my cannons... crap.
Thanks, though I've already worked out the space for it in my cases besides the small guns jutting out.
Going to get a box of 10 lychguard soon. Seems like sword/board is the best choice for running them, anyone make praetorians? Doesn't seem like it will be possible to do any sort of magnetizing with them.
I find that small units work best for shield, but large units for Scythe. Just personal experience though,
Maybe this is something for YMDC, but can Zandrekh take a warlord trait from the codex of say, an ally? Like to have a harlequins detachment with Necron CAD and take advantage of one of those BONKERS warlord trait tables
Alcibiades wrote: There is a reason the spyder costs 50 points. What do you expect? It's a support unit meant to be making scarabs, fixing vehicles, and protecting from psychic powers.
I never uderstood why people try to do anything else with it.
A 50pt unit that follows scarabs around and poops out another 20pts worth of models a round is a great investment.
Anything else and your paying for a more expensive upgraded unit that you may or may not get to use.
Alcibiades wrote: There is a reason the spyder costs 50 points. What do you expect? It's a support unit meant to be making scarabs, fixing vehicles, and protecting from psychic powers.
I never uderstood why people try to do anything else with it.
A 50pt unit that follows scarabs around and poops out another 20pts worth of models a round is a great investment.
Anything else and your paying for a more expensive upgraded unit that you may or may not get to use.
Personally, I'm going to stick it with my Annihilation Nexus to repair them and give them some psychic protection.
BUT I am not a competitive player and just like the idea aesthetically and thematically.
Spyders also have good shooting, particularly now that there's a steep price drop for that. They can do fairly solid damage on the charge if gun equipped too.
Really though, their combat weakness is the low WS and only two attacks. This makes them bad at acting solo, but on the other hand can be useful in a hammer and anvil situation. One unit, generally Scarabs for obvious reasons, provides raw mass of attacks whilst the Spyder provides a hammer to punch through a few saves.
The Hammer and Anvil thing is improved by the ability to give both units reanimation now. (Or Shred)
Oh and Vehicle repair? Never seen that earn it's points back, even in non-Necron lists.
luke1705 wrote: Maybe this is something for YMDC, but can Zandrekh take a warlord trait from the codex of say, an ally? Like to have a harlequins detachment with Necron CAD and take advantage of one of those BONKERS warlord trait tables
Which Warlord Traits he can take is clearly spelt out in his Adaptive Tactics special rule.
Yeah I read the rule. Some people were talking about it so I was wondering if I had missed something. Basically the rule implies that he is able to take any available warlord traits, so it's not a huge stretch to think that he could use an ally's table, though I don't believe it's RAW
Again, the next to last sentence of the rule is crystal clear on which tables he can take his Warlord Trait from and doesn't imply that he can take a trait from a different codex. Its actually quite explicit that he can not.
Alcibiades wrote: There is a reason the spyder costs 50 points. What do you expect? It's a support unit meant to be making scarabs, fixing vehicles, and protecting from psychic powers.
Exactly. Saying "but it won't stand up to dedicated melee specialists"....well neither do my Rippers, who are 5 points cheaper. But with str 6, AP 2 and the possibility to smash, it's not too shabby for 50pts
adamsouza wrote:
Alcibiades wrote: There is a reason the spyder costs 50 points. What do you expect? It's a support unit meant to be making scarabs, fixing vehicles, and protecting from psychic powers.
I never uderstood why people try to do anything else with it.
A 50pt unit that follows scarabs around and poops out another 20pts worth of models a round is a great investment.
Anything else and your paying for a more expensive upgraded unit that you may or may not get to use.
Sorry I was not more clear. What type of units should a unit of three spiders target in an ideal situation. I am concerned other monstrous creatures, terminators, or dedicated CC specialists would take spiders down easily.
Spyders are great in combat, especially with RP. Their lack of use previously was mostly down to their taking up an AB slot, not that they weren't good. 150 pts for 9 T6 wounds and smash. Unless you are up against force weapons it's hard to see the downside of them.
Spyders are good against anything that doesn't have a decent invuln. Even against a usual-config wraithknight they should tie it up for two or three turns and deal probably 4 wounds before dying. And a unit of 3 is 90 pts less than a WK.
People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.
A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.
Sorry I was not more clear. What type of units should a unit of three spiders target in an ideal situation. I am concerned other monstrous creatures, terminators, or dedicated CC specialists would take spiders down easily.
Just move + run them up the board towards your opponents shooting stuff and pick targets if you get there. Excellent Distration Carnifex style unit. If some expensive assault unit charges them they'll hold their own for a while usually and give you time to get stuff in place to deal with it.
schadenfreude wrote: People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.
A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.
^^ This. 5 Spyders about equal the cost of a WK, and I'm pretty sure 5 Spyders would make a WK their prison bitch.
I'm still working on article but something I noticed was that you can basically have a Betastrike with the army by just placing a pretty much unkillable unit on the board with a Bastion and Comm Link.
That pretty much unkillable with shooting unit and CC as well?
A Mephrit Dynasty Destroyer Lord or place the Destroyer Lord w/ Orikan in a squad and let the Lord Tank.
Here's the set up and the actual number
Destroyer Lord w/ Solar Thermite , Phase Shifter , Orb of Eternity, Res Orb, Warscythe.
3+ , 4+ , 4+ Once per game allows a reroll twice.
Even with out the Solar Thermite, it's pushing 87 % of all damage is ignored.
schadenfreude wrote: People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.
A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.
^^ This. 5 Spyders about equal the cost of a WK, and I'm pretty sure 5 Spyders would make a WK their prison bitch.
I will take it even further. People rave about the wraith in the Canoptek Harvest. I think the best unit in the Canoptek Harvest IS the Spyder itself. 3W 3+ 4++ T6 2 str6 ap 2 attacks or 1 str 10 ap2 attacks is awesome. Each Spyder pays for itself in points every 2.5 turns (if In proximity to scarabs) and you have upgrades that really globally help the Necrons and are unique to the Spyder (gloom prism, fabricator claws). The only downside to the Spyder compared to the Wraiths is the speed, which is a huge downside, but paring Spyders with fast scarabs and fast wraithflight Wraiths reduces the need for speed from the Spyders and he becomes the ultimate support unit and medic.
Hollismason wrote: I'm still working on article but something I noticed was that you can basically have a Betastrike with the army by just placing a pretty much unkillable unit on the board with a Bastion and Comm Link.
That pretty much unkillable with shooting unit and CC as well?
A Mephrit Dynasty Destroyer Lord or place the Destroyer Lord w/ Orikan in a squad and let the Lord Tank.
Here's the set up and the actual number
Destroyer Lord w/ Solar Thermite , Phase Shifter , Orb of Eternity, Res Orb, Warscythe.
3+ , 4+ , 4+ Once per game allows a reroll twice.
Even with out the Solar Thermite, it's pushing 87 % of all damage is ignored.
Anyway just a option.
The Solar thing can't be taken by the Destroyer Lord.
% of all wounds coming their way when they are benefitting from the Spyder's 
. Guess that makes my custom Cryptek models near useless…
