schadenfreude wrote: People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.
A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.
^^ This. 5 Spyders about equal the cost of a WK, and I'm pretty sure 5 Spyders would make a WK their prison bitch.
I will take it even further. People rave about the wraith in the Canoptek Harvest. I think the best unit in the Canoptek Harvest IS the Spyder itself. 3W 3+ 4++ T6 2 str6 ap 2 attacks or 1 str 10 ap2 attacks is awesome. Each Spyder pays for itself in points every 2.5 turns (if In proximity to scarabs) and you have upgrades that really globally help the Necrons and are unique to the Spyder (gloom prism, fabricator claws). The only downside to the Spyder compared to the Wraiths is the speed, which is a huge downside, but paring Spyders with fast scarabs and fast wraithflight Wraiths reduces the need for speed from the Spyders and he becomes the ultimate support unit and medic.
Spyders > Wraiths > Scarabs
If only the formation allowed extra spiders to be purchased.
Therion/Hollisman's discussion early got me thinking about what a real metal tide would look like.
Illuminor
4 x 20 Warriors with Ghost Arcs
2 x 5 Flayed Ones
3 x 1 HD
1850 on the nose.
Although I think Therion was making some good points (if you're a tournament player, the popular lists are going to inevitably be in the back of your mind when you make lists), I do think that there is something to be said, at least in a list like this, yeah, but how are they going to deal with you?
Does this list have a solid answer for 5 HTs in terms of shooting them down? No. But 5 HTs would barely scratch the paint of 80 4+ RP Warriors backed by 4 GAs, and at the end of the day, you're Ob Sec and they aren't.
Now, I'm not sure how much fun a list like that would be to play, but I do think it could be strategically effective. You just out board control people.
As shocking as it sounds, I thinking limiting them to one actually shows GW might knew what they were doing, this time. With just one you at least have the option to try to take out the Spyder first and whittle the formation's resiliency down a considerable notch. If you had to chew thew 9 T6 3+ RP 4+ wounds to do it, it would be a pretty daunting task for any list. Particular if your brought several squads of that.
You could easily bring 3 squads of 3 x 3 x 6 in a Decurion. 9 Tomb Spyders 9 Scarab swarms and 18 Wraiths with RP 4+( or shred or whatever) would be absolutely brutal.
Hollismason wrote: I'm still working on article but something I noticed was that you can basically have a Betastrike with the army by just placing a pretty much unkillable unit on the board with a Bastion and Comm Link.
That pretty much unkillable with shooting unit and CC as well?
A Mephrit Dynasty Destroyer Lord or place the Destroyer Lord w/ Orikan in a squad and let the Lord Tank.
Here's the set up and the actual number
Destroyer Lord w/ Solar Thermite , Phase Shifter , Orb of Eternity, Res Orb, Warscythe.
3+ , 4+ , 4+ Once per game allows a reroll twice.
Even with out the Solar Thermite, it's pushing 87 % of all damage is ignored.
Anyway just a option.
The Solar thing can't be taken by the Destroyer Lord.
Good catch I completely missed that , yeah then it isn't a option to take that but the Destroyer Lord w/ the 3 4+ Saves is still a good option with Bastion and Comm Relay is it's still incredibly easy to get the jump on your opponenet using this if your going for a first strike.
Specifically the Destroyer Cult, because the entire cult deep strikes.
Also for the Canoptek Harvest I actually think it's best to take 3 squads of 3 Wraiths w/ 3 Scarabs and 3 Spyders. it allows you a minifarm and the ability to get off a first turn charge. By turn 2 you have possibly 9 + 3 + 3 , 16 Scarab bases on the board, just something to consider.
3 Wraiths w/ Trans Beamers
3 Scarabs
1 Spyder
Total : 260
780 points , and now your in MSU territory , you've got 3 Squads of 3 , 3 x 3 , plus 3 Squads of 1 which all have to be dealt with. To me it just seems a better choice.
Tekron wrote: Spyders are great in combat, especially with RP. Their lack of use previously was mostly down to their taking up an AB slot, not that they weren't good. 150 pts for 9 T6 wounds and smash. Unless you are up against force weapons it's hard to see the downside of them.
From the context of your comment I'm not sure you realize that only one spider may be taken per harvest formation. And if you are tournament legal, in most cases you'll only have one harvest.
I'm a big fan of all the canoptek units, and would agree people are truly underestimating the spyders. For 150 points you get 9 S6ap2 attacks on the charge, and if you smash that's 3 S10ap2. You also get 9 T6 wounds with a 3+ AS. I'd say they compare pretty well to most MCs. If they end up FAQing the Harvest into allowing several spyders then they'd be bloody awesome. (I Will not play it like that until then, though)
In fact, I've written up a scarab farm list @1000pts that I think Will be fun to play:
Tekron wrote: Spyders are great in combat, especially with RP. Their lack of use previously was mostly down to their taking up an AB slot, not that they weren't good. 150 pts for 9 T6 wounds and smash. Unless you are up against force weapons it's hard to see the downside of them.
From the context of your comment I'm not sure you realize that only one spider may be taken per harvest formation. And if you are tournament legal, in most cases you'll only have one harvest.
So it is not 3 spiders with RP. Ithe is only one.
Actually it's pretty clear to me that it's two different statements in the same post and that he's not claiming you cab add several to a Harvest.
On top of that, please do away with the assumption that tactics in this thread should be discussed from a two source format POV primarily. Competitively yes, but the two sources maximum is a house rule used by certain tournaments and not how 7th edition 40k is played RAW. I hope tournaments come to terms with that eventually as well, no matter the cheese that stems from it.
schadenfreude wrote: If only the formation allowed extra spiders to be purchased.
What if we just allow either side of that debate to discuss their tactics without the other side jumping in to restart the argument.
I thought I made it abundantly clear that the recourse the 'only one Spyder ever' argument player base is to collectively get together and house rule it to be 'one Spyder.' My whole argument is that RAW actually supports more than one Spyder and its very important that we stay consistent with how we apply rules. That said, I FULLY endorse players exercising their democratic authority and vote for the game they want to come together and play. I just want to insist that the dialogue stays honest, on the level side and rational side, and that people hold themselves to rules and logic. I want the player base to always stick to an honest and rational dialogue on the subject. I actually look at this argument as a test case for people about how approach rules arguments. Its easy to slip into a Machiavellian approach or sophist approach and simply use argumentative tactics to try to get what you want. There are a few issues in the past where I took this approach. In my posts you could probably find how I took any avenue to try to get people to allow Doom Scythes to have the ability to allow players to re-embark when there is literally no rules basis for allowing that. I kicked and pushed at the rules and bent the rules just to try and get what I want. I did that in part because a lot of the YMDC debates are being fought out by people who are really effective debaters who freely use argumentative techniques to push and get what they want by confusion, misdirection, trolling, etc.
Lately I have become a hardliner or uber rationalist/uber integrity for approaching RAW debates with honesty and integrity and the insistence of reliance on rational discourse. That may sound like a noble approach and all but it does indeed present itself with its separate problems, much like in the case where a defense attorney sets an obviously guilty man free because the cops didn't read him his rights. I think many arguments I effectively win but the community gets pissed (and rallies against me out of a feelling of being deeply offended) because I violate their gut feeling for what the rules should do (namely not let good people off for their crimes or allow players to use rules loopholes for advantage when rules loopholes really are better left approached as if full not there - an 'emperor's clothes' lines of thinking). My argument about allowing Praetorians on their dedicated transport runs in this category. My argument is that the rules adhered to strictly don't keep him off the dedicated transport. The counter argument is that 'all hell breaks loose' if you let that happen. And then I counter with that's fine, the community can get together and patch up this problem (e.g. vote on the issue so that it's clear one way or the other what the players can do). Basically, my role is as a 'lawyer' in these debates. GW is the legislative authority. They write sloppy rules. The debate over rules sometimes get mired by people who use argumentative techniques to just push for what they want (a Machiavellian approach or sophist approach) My approach is to push for and always insist that we keep the dialogue honest, consistent, and rational and to offload the burden of people getting what they want out of rules debates (where its easy to stoop to less than honest tactics) and instead direct people to collective efforts of house ruling and HYWPI (which is the player's recourse for writing new rules and indeed making a game they want to play)
So with the argument about the Spyder. If you want players to be restricted to 1 Spyder that is fine and all and I fully endorse your desire to see players play that way (and heck it even sounds fair to me at a gut level). However the rules flat out don't support you on that and I am going to topple any Machiavellian, sophist, or trolling line of argumentation that tries to succeed at doing that simply out of principle, because among other things its a greater value collectively that we stick to honest and rational dialogue than to slip into 'emperor's clothes' or 'mob thinking' on this subject. 'Mob thinking' is toxic to rules debates and we need to diligently root it out whenever it pops up and simply collectively not allow it ever. The legitimate way for the counter argument to get what they want is getting together and house ruling on that (like a community rallies together and votes and enacts legislative change). Lawyers, if they are honest, just stick to rational argument and try to do that job exceeding well and not blur what the law says with what the law should say. That's what YMDC should always do imho. They frequently get blamed for being the underminers of the whole process but really its just bad law (e.g the rules that GW writes).
Another way of looking at all this is that for YMDC I stick with Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle as guides and just simply DEMAND other players meet me on that field of debate (rational, logical, and honest discourse). You might think I am a lawyer by background after this speel. My background actually is in Philosophy and Anthropology and Linguistics (semantics, etc.). At one time I was a professional academic instructing university students in the history of Western ideology (think anthropology of power - Bourdieu, Michel Foucault, Henri Lefebvre for those who want to peak at my dusty bookshelf) and other useless topics and teaching them how to write and how to form rational, well-formed, and logically airtight arguments. I bailed on the Ivory Tower and nowadays, I just do visual effects, and work on movies and have boatloads of fun playing 40k as a 46 year old artist with my 12 year old son who is a budding artist and who I can see one day following in my footsteps and putting monsters and furry creatures on the big screen (ie I sold out and just have fun). Enough self disclosure. Let's just stick to rational and honest lines of argument and treat things as they actually are (like Plato would) and kick each others asses if we stoop to abusive lines of argument (which I fully admit I have done in the past and thank you to anyone who kicked me ass on that) and honestly realize sometimes that a particular issue is better left to collective legislative vote (e.g HYWPI) rather than stooping to dishonest and deceitful lines of argumentation which is toxic to the entire endeavor. I am not trying to point the moral high finger. I have done Machiavellian lines of argumentation in the past. We have all done that. Its the Internet and the breeding ground for trollers and Machiavellian, sophist pushes for 'might makes right' and I am guilty as any of you for dipping into that practice. But if we like playing 40K and we want a community base to actually be able to come together and play this game, I think Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle provide the best guide if only because so many of us have a higher education and can pull on that as a collective common ground. Anyway, that's my opinion. Lots of players on here are actually quite smart and Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates are probably our collective best bet as the heroes or guides for YMDC. We all want to come together and play the game with our 12 year old sons and feel good about it and not get stuck in toxic rules debates. I think Plato, et al, can help us out there.
Hollismason wrote: I'd rather stick with a max of 7 Spyders including the Canoptek one. Just less points.
Making 16 Scarab bases that could possibly get a first turn ( actually completely likely) charge is enough.
Well, you need to save those points for your Tomb Blades
I like to run 10 Spyders (9 CAD + 1 Canoptek Swarm). The Sheer volume of them discourages people from attacking them. It requires a significant amount of fire power to down that many T6 3+ 3W models and there are often greater threats on the board for them to contend with first.
Also, if they decide to deepstrike in some Terminators to handle the Spyder situation, you can tie them up with 3 spyders at a time.
gwarsh41 wrote: That many spyders sounds like a really fun time!
For me at least. I don't know about my opponents, since my Scarab farm is undefeated.
There is something demoralizing about adding 10 bases a turn to a squad.
One of my regular opponents is threatening to run a Demon Factory, and to be honest, I'm quite excited to see the epic clash of a Scarab Farm verses a Demon Factory.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Therion/Hollisman's discussion early got me thinking about what a real metal tide would look like.
Illuminor
4 x 20 Warriors with Ghost Arcs
2 x 5 Flayed Ones
3 x 1 HD
1850 on the nose.
Although I think Therion was making some good points (if you're a tournament player, the popular lists are going to inevitably be in the back of your mind when you make lists), I do think that there is something to be said, at least in a list like this, yeah, but how are they going to deal with you?
Does this list have a solid answer for 5 HTs in terms of shooting them down? No. But 5 HTs would barely scratch the paint of 80 4+ RP Warriors backed by 4 GAs, and at the end of the day, you're Ob Sec and they aren't.
Now, I'm not sure how much fun a list like that would be to play, but I do think it could be strategically effective. You just out board control people.
The biggest weakness I see to a list like this is your blob of warriors can be swept in melee. One solid melee unit should be able to survive 20 attacks from Str4 AP- warriors while dealing enough kills to lower your leadership check to the point where you'll fail and be swept. All the balanced Necron lists either have fast units that can avoid melee or tarpit units to tie up melee. That's one reason why people like Flayed Ones. They're as annoying as warriors to kill but they can actually win combat and not be swept. So perhaps consider lowering your warrior count and getting more Flayed Ones.
His list: Ultramarines CAD - Captain w/ kit, 5x tactical marines, Assault Cannon Razorback, 5x scouts w/ telion, 3x grav centurions, venerable dreadnought in a drop pod, storm talon w/ skyhammers, and a lascannon/storm bolter predator.
The mission was Cloak and Dagger maelstrom, with additonal VPs for Kill Points. Night Fight turn 1.
He won Initiative, and began with some pretty good shooting from his dread, razorback, and snipers and killed about 6 of my warriors after cover and RP rolls. I moved up and managed to charge 1st turn (since he had gotten closer) with my scarabs vs his tacticals and super-captain. They would remain locked in that combat for the entirety of the game - scarabs are an amazing tarpit vs anything s5 or lower, especially with RP from the spyder.
His stormtalon came in and consistently did damage, and i had to ignore it because i was using a list with no skyfire. The grav centurions lined up shots on my tomb blades and made them disappear (which was expected). The wraiths multicharged a drop pod, dreadnought, and a razorback, and wrecked the dread and the razor. then they only lost 2 models to the return fire from the rest of his army. After that they took out the centurions, then the scouts. The overlord made it to his predator and ganked it with a warscythe. Thanks to the phylactery, i healed 2 wounds over the course of the game keeping my warlord alive.
by the end of the game, thanks to the maelstrom points and KP's I won 14-13. It was an incredibly close match, despite the fact that he only had his captain and the storm talon left alive at the end of the game.
What i took away was that the canoptek harvest is a great formation (duh), and lack of air support really makes me want to consider buying some night scythes (at least one) for future lists. Not having ObSec on my troops never really came much into play - if i wanted an objective i typically just would kill what was holding it.
Overall i'm having a lot of fun with this book so far. Only 2 games in, but i just got 10 metal flayed ones last night that i'll be putting together and painting this week. I might even take NightBringer for a spin and see how it goes.
Um, no. I can't understand what is difficult to understand about
'1 canoptek spyder'
1
spyder
not unit, not >1, not spyders.
It's been done to death, once in YMDC which got locked and then someone new opened a thread with artwork claiming it to support pro multiple spyders (artwork =/= rules) which also got locked.
For the record I am Pro ONE Spyder (I agree with the Triarch Stalker formation argument put forward) but let it die.
Verveidi I would go CAD at that's point level, Decurion is very restrictive and IMO should be taken at 1500 or above if you wanted to go that route.
Um, no. I can't understand what is difficult to understand about
'1 canoptek spyder'
1
spyder
not unit, not >1, not spyders.
The special rule for the formation states 'the spyder'. Arguing otherwise is just living in some mythical dream world in your head.
The reasoning behind more than one spyder is twofold - 1 canoptek spyer is a unit selection in the book, which gives the option to add up to 2 more spyders. Secondly, and the more important bit i think, is there is no Formation Restriction limiting the spyder from adding additional models to it's unit.
the HIWPI is for me, definitely 1 spyder. However RAW more can be added. A FAQ here would be incredibly helpful for everyone - we should all email the FAQ section of GW so they might actually answer this one in a future update.
schadenfreude wrote: If only the formation allowed extra spiders to be purchased.
What if we just allow either side of that debate to discuss their tactics without the other side jumping in to restart the argument.
Spoiler:
I thought I made it abundantly clear that the recourse the 'only one Spyder ever' argument player base is to collectively get together and house rule it to be 'one Spyder.' My whole argument is that RAW actually supports more than one Spyder and its very important that we stay consistent with how we apply rules. That said, I FULLY endorse players exercising their democratic authority and vote for the game they want to come together and play. I just want to insist that the dialogue stays honest, on the level side and rational side, and that people hold themselves to rules and logic. I want the player base to always stick to an honest and rational dialogue on the subject. I actually look at this argument as a test case for people about how approach rules arguments. Its easy to slip into a Machiavellian approach or sophist approach and simply use argumentative tactics to try to get what you want. There are a few issues in the past where I took this approach. In my posts you could probably find how I took any avenue to try to get people to allow Doom Scythes to have the ability to allow players to re-embark when there is literally no rules basis for allowing that. I kicked and pushed at the rules and bent the rules just to try and get what I want. I did that in part because a lot of the YMDC debates are being fought out by people who are really effective debaters who freely use argumentative techniques to push and get what they want by confusion, misdirection, trolling, etc.
Lately I have become a hardliner or uber rationalist/uber integrity for approaching RAW debates with honesty and integrity and the insistence of reliance on rational discourse. That may sound like a noble approach and all but it does indeed present itself with its separate problems, much like in the case where a defense attorney sets an obviously guilty man free because the cops didn't read him his rights. I think many arguments I effectively win but the community gets pissed (and rallies against me out of a feelling of being deeply offended) because I violate their gut feeling for what the rules should do (namely not let good people off for their crimes or allow players to use rules loopholes for advantage when rules loopholes really are better left approached as if full not there - an 'emperor's clothes' lines of thinking). My argument about allowing Praetorians on their dedicated transport runs in this category. My argument is that the rules adhered to strictly don't keep him off the dedicated transport. The counter argument is that 'all hell breaks loose' if you let that happen. And then I counter with that's fine, the community can get together and patch up this problem (e.g. vote on the issue so that it's clear one way or the other what the players can do). Basically, my role is as a 'lawyer' in these debates. GW is the legislative authority. They write sloppy rules. The debate over rules sometimes get mired by people who use argumentative techniques to just push for what they want (a Machiavellian approach or sophist approach) My approach is to push for and always insist that we keep the dialogue honest, consistent, and rational and to offload the burden of people getting what they want out of rules debates (where its easy to stoop to less than honest tactics) and instead direct people to collective efforts of house ruling and HYWPI (which is the player's recourse for writing new rules and indeed making a game they want to play)
So with the argument about the Spyder. If you want players to be restricted to 1 Spyder that is fine and all and I fully endorse your desire to see players play that way (and heck it even sounds fair to me at a gut level). However the rules flat out don't support you on that and I am going to topple any Machiavellian, sophist, or trolling line of argumentation that tries to succeed at doing that simply out of principle, because among other things its a greater value collectively that we stick to honest and rational dialogue than to slip into 'emperor's clothes' or 'mob thinking' on this subject. 'Mob thinking' is toxic to rules debates and we need to diligently root it out whenever it pops up and simply collectively not allow it ever. The legitimate way for the counter argument to get what they want is getting together and house ruling on that (like a community rallies together and votes and enacts legislative change). Lawyers, if they are honest, just stick to rational argument and try to do that job exceeding well and not blur what the law says with what the law should say. That's what YMDC should always do imho. They frequently get blamed for being the underminers of the whole process but really its just bad law (e.g the rules that GW writes).
Another way of looking at all this is that for YMDC I stick with Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle as guides and just simply DEMAND other players meet me on that field of debate (rational, logical, and honest discourse). You might think I am a lawyer by background after this speel. My background actually is in Philosophy and Anthropology and Linguistics (semantics, etc.). At one time I was a professional academic instructing university students in the history of Western ideology (think anthropology of power - Bourdieu, Michel Foucault, Henri Lefebvre for those who want to peak at my dusty bookshelf) and other useless topics and teaching them how to write and how to form rational, well-formed, and logically airtight arguments. I bailed on the Ivory Tower and nowadays, I just do visual effects, and work on movies and have boatloads of fun playing 40k as a 46 year old artist with my 12 year old son who is a budding artist and who I can see one day following in my footsteps and putting monsters and furry creatures on the big screen (ie I sold out and just have fun). Enough self disclosure. Let's just stick to rational and honest lines of argument and treat things as they actually are (like Plato would) and kick each others asses if we stoop to abusive lines of argument (which I fully admit I have done in the past and thank you to anyone who kicked me ass on that) and honestly realize sometimes that a particular issue is better left to collective legislative vote (e.g HYWPI) rather than stooping to dishonest and deceitful lines of argumentation which is toxic to the entire endeavor. I am not trying to point the moral high finger. I have done Machiavellian lines of argumentation in the past. We have all done that. Its the Internet and the breeding ground for trollers and Machiavellian, sophist pushes for 'might makes right' and I am guilty as any of you for dipping into that practice. But if we like playing 40K and we want a community base to actually be able to come together and play this game, I think Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle provide the best guide if only because so many of us have a higher education and can pull on that as a collective common ground. Anyway, that's my opinion. Lots of players on here are actually quite smart and Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates are probably our collective best bet as the heroes or guides for YMDC. We all want to come together and play the game with our 12 year old sons and feel good about it and not get stuck in toxic rules debates. I think Plato, et al, can help us out there.
Just thought you should know you aren't alone in your opinions in YMDC, I'm sure there are plenty like me who lurk and agree with many of your RAW interpretations. Unfortunately since the new codex was released a large segment of people there have essentially decided to side against anything advantageous for Necrons due to their perceived power level, and I for one certainly don't have the patience to argue it. So thank you!
col_impact wrote: My whole argument is that RAW actually supports more than one Spyder and its very important that we stay consistent with how we apply rules.
I am afraid that is actually not an argument but only your (as of yet unsupported) interpretation of the rules.
col_impact wrote: I think many arguments I effectively win but the community gets pissed (and rallies against me out of a feelling of being deeply offended) because I violate their gut feeling for what the rules should do
From what I can tell your own (as of yet unsupported) gut feeling of having won the argument prevents you from actually questioning aforementioned gut feeling, leaving you with a non-verifyable a priori belief in your own rhetorical superiority.
col_impact wrote: My approach is to push for and always insist that we keep the dialogue honest, consistent, and rational and to offload the burden of people getting what they want out of rules debates
Reserving moral authority for your own position is neither "your" approach, nor anything other than a pretty obvious argument ad hominem, itself an ancient rhetorical ("Sophist", "Machiavellian", etc.) trope to get what you want out of this debate.
col_impact wrote: My background actually is in Philosophy and Anthropology and Linguistics (semantics, etc.).
That you know (at least) graduate student-level argumentation theory indicates that you know about the tropes you are actively using and assume we do not notice. So your manipulation is intentional and thus even unethical, yet luckily not very skillful.
RAW in the formation part of the codex conflicts with RAW in the main rulebook (wrt unit compositions in formations).
So then we get to RAI.
If they hadn't specified 'the spyder' in the formation rule, I would agree that '1 canoptek spyder' is quite possibly a typo and therefore RAI was indeed '1 unit of canoptek spyders'.
However, they actually specify in the rule for the formation 'the spyder'. Not 'a spyder', not 'a unit of spyders', THE SPYDER.
There is NO other way to interpret this semantically. As we all know, codex rules supersede main rulebook.
I agree though, it needs a FAQ as it's causing a lot of confusion... typical geedubs poor templating of rules.
(as a side note - that formation is INSANE if you take more than 1 spyder - I doubt very much that they would choose to unbalance the codex so heavily, given the current move towards more balanced armies).
schadenfreude wrote: People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.
A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.
Well that's just wrong, 10 man tac squad with bolters inflicts 0.555 wounds(before saves) on overwatch and then 3.333 wounds in combat because they just use their krak grenades on your "monsterous" creatures body. So that's 1.3 wounds already(0.65 if decurion in harvest) and it's not taking into account the fact that they might have a fist or a melta bomb(which is really really good vs monsterous creatures). So it's not unlikely that if you charge a tac squad that by the time it's your turn again it'll be dead.
These thing are pretty bad combat wise, it a support unit that can act as a counter assault if something hits your line quickly. It will lose vs anything that is likely to approach it in combat( the only units it can beat are really your opponents back field support units and its not getting there). Equip it as a support unit, with fabricators if you have a tank line, gloom prism gives the only psychic defense in the codex, and the twin-linked particle weapon is actually decent for a support unit. It's best used in a canoptek harvest to give RP to your real tarpits and melee units and then sitting back protecting/fire supporting your slower ground army.
What would be a good way to run crons in a MSU list? Jw cause everyone seems to blobing out as many as they can, and I was thinking maybe MSU can be better? So if you have a bad roll they can't focus fire you down. Just a thought.
schadenfreude wrote: People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.
A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.
Well that's just wrong, 10 man tac squad with bolters inflicts 0.555 wounds(before saves) on overwatch and then 3.333 wounds in combat because they just use their krak grenades on your "monsterous" creatures body. So that's 1.3 wounds already(0.65 if decurion in harvest) and it's not taking into account the fact that they might have a fist or a melta bomb(which is really really good vs monsterous creatures). So it's not unlikely that if you charge a tac squad that by the time it's your turn again it'll be dead.
These thing are pretty bad combat wise, it a support unit that can act as a counter assault if something hits your line quickly. It will lose vs anything that is likely to approach it in combat( the only units it can beat are really your opponents back field support units and its not getting there). Equip it as a support unit, with fabricators if you have a tank line, gloom prism gives the only psychic defense in the codex, and the twin-linked particle weapon is actually decent for a support unit. It's best used in a canoptek harvest to give RP to your real tarpits and melee units and then sitting back protecting/fire supporting your slower ground army.
A spyder has 75% of the survivability of a carnifex at less than 50% of the price. Sure, the marines might bring a spyder down if they'te kitted for it, but they would not beat three which still would be cheaper than their squad.
Col_impact couldn't win his argument in YMDC so he's trying to derail this thread where no one cares enough to argue with him. Just press the yellow triangle if he posts his version of the Galt Monologue again.
D00MsDAY333 wrote: What would be a good way to run crons in a MSU list? Jw cause everyone seems to blobing out as many as they can, and I was thinking maybe MSU can be better? So if you have a bad roll they can't focus fire you down. Just a thought.
I'd say a Decarion with maximum Immortals, Tomb Blades and Flayed Ones if you want to do that. Judicator Battalions might be applicable as well - utilize the force multipliers out as much as you can.
Ghost Arks seem to be the new hotness, you get a savage amount of firepower from them, they're survivable, and you need a way to get your slow robots across the battlefield.
gwarsh41 wrote: That many spyders sounds like a really fun time!
For me at least. I don't know about my opponents, since my Scarab farm is undefeated.
There is something demoralizing about adding 10 bases a turn to a squad.
One of my regular opponents is threatening to run a Demon Factory, and to be honest, I'm quite excited to see the epic clash of a Scarab Farm verses a Demon Factory.
I think that 4 16 man pink horror units with a +1S to powers ML3 herald in each unit could give scarab farm a run for its money. The unit would drop 3-4D6 S6 ap4 shots, each failed +4RP would be a dead scarab base. Herald could easily go for prescience and have 2 powers in summoning. On top of that would be fateweaver, flying around with all his silly shenanigans.
D00MsDAY333 wrote: What would be a good way to run crons in a MSU list? Jw cause everyone seems to blobing out as many as they can, and I was thinking maybe MSU can be better? So if you have a bad roll they can't focus fire you down. Just a thought.
I'd say a Decarion with maximum Immortals, Tomb Blades and Flayed Ones if you want to do that. Judicator Battalions might be applicable as well - utilize the force multipliers out as much as you can.
So what would be an example list for lets say 2k? I want to see what people can come up with I was thinking just a CaD with some min sized harvests!
col_impact wrote: . I think many arguments I effectively win but the community gets pissed (and rallies against me out of a feelling of being deeply offended) because I violate their gut feeling for what the rules should do
I think that if you are seeing discussions in YMDC as something to be 'won', then you've completely missed the point of YMDC.
. I think Plato, et al, can help us out there.
Then you're probably taking the whole thing just a little too seriously.
I also really like Hollismason's idea of building a deathstar and null-deploying. With a tanking D lord (or even just deploying the D lord with Orikan haha) you really don't need to put anything else on the table. That being said, you also waste valuable time that you could be using to advance that unit's position since it probably wants to be in combat, and the closer you get to the enemy the easier it is to flank your tank.
But it is pretty cool to see the amount of deathstars/pseudo deathstars that you can create with just Orikan and a kitted out D lord with the mandatory Nightmare shroud (and probably phase shifter) and res orb you are pretty much good to go. The crazy part? You can grab a solar staff and a chronometron on another Cryptek for 105 points. Those flayed ones are never going to die.
One last thing that Hollismason pointed out to me - you can actually take a res orb and an orb of eternity on the same character. So maybe you decide to take a cheap lord to grab the double orb and a solar staff. That one 130 point investment (if I remember the orb of eternity correctly) grants you two turns of re-rolling failed RP, aka near immunity to death, plus another turn of being snap-fired at. That is a pretty ridiculous amount of damage reduction. I think I may try out a "I won't die" silver tide with a couple Ghost arks, night scythes and probably a royal court. Can grab you 2-3 units that are going NOWHERE for most of the game. And of course, we're going to make sure that this is in a CAD so they're obsec. Haha now I want to try this out
luke1705 wrote: I really hope that the horse is dead by now.
I also really like Hollismason's idea of building a deathstar and null-deploying. With a tanking D lord (or even just deploying the D lord with Orikan haha) you really don't need to put anything else on the table. That being said, you also waste valuable time that you could be using to advance that unit's position since it probably wants to be in combat, and the closer you get to the enemy the easier it is to flank your tank.
But it is pretty cool to see the amount of deathstars/pseudo deathstars that you can create with just Orikan and a kitted out D lord with the mandatory Nightmare shroud (and probably phase shifter) and res orb you are pretty much good to go. The crazy part? You can grab a solar staff and a chronometron on another Cryptek for 105 points. Those flayed ones are never going to die.
One last thing that Hollismason pointed out to me - you can actually take a res orb and an orb of eternity on the same character. So maybe you decide to take a cheap lord to grab the double orb and a solar staff. That one 130 point investment (if I remember the orb of eternity correctly) grants you two turns of re-rolling failed RP, aka near immunity to death, plus another turn of being snap-fired at. That is a pretty ridiculous amount of damage reduction. I think I may try out a "I won't die" silver tide with a couple Ghost arks, night scythes and probably a royal court. Can grab you 2-3 units that are going NOWHERE for most of the game. And of course, we're going to make sure that this is in a CAD so they're obsec. Haha now I want to try this out
While that would be fun, you can't have solar staff and orb of eternity on the same character (Artefacts of the Aeons are 1 per character), but yes, double orb is a possibility. Unless you were talking about the solar staff or orb of eternity on your D Lord, but then he loses nightmare shroud.
Ah that's correct. So you'd need a third character (or to just sacrifice the shroud). But say you don't want a tanking D Lord. D lord takes res orb and solar staff; other character takes res orb and orb of eternity. That's 3 turns anyhow. Of course, once you add in Cryptek/Orikan, the unit does start getting pretty pricey considering that it too can probably be tarpitted
What's everyone's view on HQ load out for damage? Wasted in the new dex?
I'm excited to see a Burning One Conclave utilizing the Nightbringer, personally. I know it's a huge commitment of points but the amount of damage it can put out is enormous and easily threatens just about anything in the game. Just stay away from D weapons - but that's a universal rule.
The biggest weakness I see to a list like this is your blob of warriors can be swept in melee. One solid melee unit should be able to survive 20 attacks from Str4 AP- warriors while dealing enough kills to lower your leadership check to the point where you'll fail and be swept. All the balanced Necron lists either have fast units that can avoid melee or tarpit units to tie up melee. That's one reason why people like Flayed Ones. They're as annoying as warriors to kill but they can actually win combat and not be swept. So perhaps consider lowering your warrior count and getting more Flayed Ones.
Yeah, good points. I've also played around with the idea of getting a WarScythe in each blob, and maybe running three.
Talking about the almost Null Deployment beta strike, I think it only works with the Comm Relay not enough reroll reserves to count on for the reserves.
Speculation, let me check rules but I think this may be a way to "save" you're Decurion Canoptek Harvest units.
First off Wraiths and Scarabs are fast enough to come on from reserve and be where they need to be regardless, but the strength is getting that 1 turn of RP or continueing to get the RP afterwards.
So I think you could , roll for reserves, bring on the Wraiths, Bring on the Scarabs, it's still the beginning of the turn bring on the Spyder then activate the ability as they are with in 12".
Then the rest of the army comes on, now what to use for the Beta Strike though?
Like what ? Well Deep Striking H. Destroyers. Jetbikes that move on and fire.
Annihilation Barges.
Triarch Stalkers
Etc.. Etc..
So you've basically dictated the terms how you face your opponent, which is specifically strong against 1 army in particular, Flyrants.
Like what are they going to do? Decide to Land on great.
Charge the guy that's going to get a 4+ 4+ 4+ in CC that's going to do nothing, oh and then the rest of the army is going to show up.
schadenfreude wrote: People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.
A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.
Well that's just wrong, 10 man tac squad with bolters inflicts 0.555 wounds(before saves) on overwatch and then 3.333 wounds in combat because they just use their krak grenades on your "monsterous" creatures body. So that's 1.3 wounds already(0.65 if decurion in harvest) and it's not taking into account the fact that they might have a fist or a melta bomb(which is really really good vs monsterous creatures). So it's not unlikely that if you charge a tac squad that by the time it's your turn again it'll be dead.
These thing are pretty bad combat wise, it a support unit that can act as a counter assault if something hits your line quickly. It will lose vs anything that is likely to approach it in combat( the only units it can beat are really your opponents back field support units and its not getting there). Equip it as a support unit, with fabricators if you have a tank line, gloom prism gives the only psychic defense in the codex, and the twin-linked particle weapon is actually decent for a support unit. It's best used in a canoptek harvest to give RP to your real tarpits and melee units and then sitting back protecting/fire supporting your slower ground army.
You are comparing 150+ points worth of Tacs versus 50 points worth of Spyder. The argument is, for their points, Spyders are actually very good in assault. If you have 3 non formation Spyders assault a full unit of Tacs, you will crush them.
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Ferros wrote: What's everyone's view on HQ load out for damage? Wasted in the new dex?
I'm excited to see a Burning One Conclave utilizing the Nightbringer, personally. I know it's a huge commitment of points but the amount of damage it can put out is enormous and easily threatens just about anything in the game. Just stay away from D weapons - but that's a universal rule.
Well, I think a WarScythe on a CCB is still kind of a no brainer, though bringing something like the 7 / 2 Template relic also has it's merits.
I'm playing around with some kind of modern version of the RC, as well, and I think there are some good things you can combine, there. Zandy + Solar Staff + Orikan + 2+/4++ Olords and some Res Orbs makes for a pretty impossible to take down unit. Then you can basically drop that in to some LG or whatever unit you wish. Or, get real cute and drop them in an NS with some Warriors or Immortals for some cheap ablative wounds and Ob Sec.
I think it's possible with Allies of Convenience and Tau who are I believe allies of Convenience. To get possibly every single special rule available , maybe or at least close using Zandrekh.
I'm not overly familiar with the Tau codex though so that may not be possible.
schadenfreude wrote: People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.
A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.
Well that's just wrong, 10 man tac squad with bolters inflicts 0.555 wounds(before saves) on overwatch and then 3.333 wounds in combat because they just use their krak grenades on your "monsterous" creatures body. So that's 1.3 wounds already(0.65 if decurion in harvest) and it's not taking into account the fact that they might have a fist or a melta bomb(which is really really good vs monsterous creatures). So it's not unlikely that if you charge a tac squad that by the time it's your turn again it'll be dead.
These thing are pretty bad combat wise, it a support unit that can act as a counter assault if something hits your line quickly. It will lose vs anything that is likely to approach it in combat( the only units it can beat are really your opponents back field support units and its not getting there). Equip it as a support unit, with fabricators if you have a tank line, gloom prism gives the only psychic defense in the codex, and the twin-linked particle weapon is actually decent for a support unit. It's best used in a canoptek harvest to give RP to your real tarpits and melee units and then sitting back protecting/fire supporting your slower ground army.
A spyder has 75% of the survivability of a carnifex at less than 50% of the price. Sure, the marines might bring a spyder down if they'te kitted for it, but they would not beat three which still would be cheaper than their squad.
3.888 wounds is 1.293 which goes down to 0.649 after rp. With only 1 marine casualty it would take 9 krak grenades 5 more rounds to kill a spider with rp averaging 0.5 unsaved wounds per turn.
a melta bomb would average another 0.27 wounds. That would only raise it to 2.9 wounds after 3 more rounds of combat.
4 rounds of combat should yield 3.75 dead marines before the spider drops on round 5. Not bad, 52 points of dead Meq and a unit worth triple the cost stuck in a tarpit for 5 rounds.
The problem with the maths in regards to a Spyder in cc is that they are slow. I would not be intimidated to see 3 x squads of 3 Spyders heading up the field ready to charge me. In a scarab farm list? for sure but outside of a scarab farm I don't see the point.
Back on the topic of RAW for multiple spiders in the formation. Only 1 interpretation really matters and that's the TO. It's best to assume the worst. If you are planning on running multiple spiders get approval beforehand and have a backup list if approval doesn't happen. If you are not running a list be prepared for the possibility of multiple spiders per formation.
A large number of spiders a lot of money and possibly time (depending how much effort is being thrown in) for a list that is at risk of being be protested to the TO.
WarScythe in each unit should help out quite a bit in assault. This also has the advantage over the Illuminor version of have three independently functioning units.
Not a whole lot of room for toys, though.
You could certainly drop it two two bricks and bring more juicy stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 2 Brick version ::
CAD + Royal Court
Zandrek
Lord + WS + RO Chronotek
20 x Warriors + GA
The new necron book has so many competitive builds and a fantastic mix of cheap or elite shooty and choppy units. It's everything the ork codex should have been and a bag of chips.
I'm still trying to figure out my list. Probably just a single Overlord with a focus on tomb blades, flayed ones, spiders, and wraiths.
I worked out a list for a 2000 point destroyer cult army consisting of:
2 Lords,
11 Heavies (6 in Heavy units, 5 attached to regular units)
16 Regular,
2 Doom Scythes.
It's bound. Two cults and a Deathbringer Flight. That said, I miscounted the number of Destroyers I'll have access to by the end of the week when my last order of them comes in, and I'll have 32 models instead of 31. The most obvious thing to do there is make the spare another Heavy, but I already had a 1995 point list worked out.
Wargear on the D-Lords is:
D-Lord 1: Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Voidreaper, Resurrection Orb,
D-Lord 2: Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Warscythe, Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.
So, my question is: Would it be more sensible to leave my army as is, with the two Lords attached to a retinue of 3 regular Destroyers, or to find a sensible way to cut 45 points of wargear and have every Destroyer unit in the army have a Heavy attached?
Certainly cutting the Res Orb seems a no-brainer, those are situational at best and I only added it because of spare points in the first place. The hard part is then finding another 20 points to cut without making the unit's combat potential take a hit.
Hollismason wrote: I think it's possible with Allies of Convenience and Tau who are I believe allies of Convenience. To get possibly every single special rule available , maybe or at least close using Zandrekh.
I'm not overly familiar with the Tau codex though so that may not be possible.
Just wanted to clarify since I think some people are misunderstanding this - you can't just get ANY special rule that the nearby squad has. It is a very specific set listed in Zandrekh's description. That being said, I think you know this Hollismason from the wording in your post. Just wanted to make sure it was clear to everyone
I worked out a list for a 2000 point destroyer cult army consisting of:
2 Lords,
11 Heavies (6 in Heavy units, 5 attached to regular units)
16 Regular,
2 Doom Scythes.
It's bound. Two cults and a Deathbringer Flight. That said, I miscounted the number of Destroyers I'll have access to by the end of the week when my last order of them comes in, and I'll have 32 models instead of 31. The most obvious thing to do there is make the spare another Heavy, but I already had a 1995 point list worked out.
Wargear on the D-Lords is:
D-Lord 1: Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Voidreaper, Resurrection Orb,
D-Lord 2: Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Warscythe, Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.
So, my question is: Would it be more sensible to leave my army as is, with the two Lords attached to a retinue of 3 regular Destroyers, or to find a sensible way to cut 45 points of wargear and have every Destroyer unit in the army have a Heavy attached?
Certainly cutting the Res Orb seems a no-brainer, those are situational at best and I only added it because of spare points in the first place. The hard part is then finding another 20 points to cut without making the unit's combat potential take a hit.
Not a bad list. I can't wait until you get to take on drop pod marines. "You have HOW MUCH AP 3??" That being said, it's a very elite army and while it is durable, you're going to be bleeding kill points left and right. You do have an awesome amount of mobility with the assault move. If those dudes still moved 12" in the movement phase, I think it would be an awesome army. As is, I don't know if its strengths outweigh its weaknesses.
One thing - I would certainly try to get MORE res orbs in that list, not less. I would do the double orb combo on the second lord (grab orb of eternity AND res orb) since you're not Decurion and don't have any access to crypteks, you're only getting 5+ RP. Trust me, you can't have too many re-rolls. Two successes pays for the res orb and then some, and two successes pays for the orb of eternity. Always a good choice. Durability is much more important to your army than AP 2, which it will have enough of once it is close enough to actually use the flamer
schadenfreude wrote: The new necron book has so many competitive builds and a fantastic mix of cheap or elite shooty and choppy units. It's everything the ork codex should have been and a bag of chips.
I'm still trying to figure out my list. Probably just a single Overlord with a focus on tomb blades, flayed ones, spiders, and wraiths.
I know how you feel. I've been staring at this book for a month and still can't figure out what I want to play; there are so many fun options now, I just want to cram them all into 1 list
luke1705 wrote: Not a bad list. I can't wait until you get to take on drop pod marines. "You have HOW MUCH AP 3??" That being said, it's a very elite army and while it is durable, you're going to be bleeding kill points left and right. You do have an awesome amount of mobility with the assault move. If those dudes still moved 12" in the movement phase, I think it would be an awesome army. As is, I don't know if its strengths outweigh its weaknesses.
My big durability bonus is the assault move, which I can use to break line of sight/range, and Move Through Cover allowing me to jet up ruins to avoid charges from combat units without needing to worry about terrain checks. I think there'll be a bit of a learning curve on it, getting to the point where I can maximise the effect.
One thing - I would certainly try to get MORE res orbs in that list, not less. I would do the double orb combo on the second lord (grab orb of eternity AND res orb) since you're not Decurion and don't have any access to crypteks, you're only getting 5+ RP. Trust me, you can't have too many re-rolls. Two successes pays for the res orb and then some, and two successes pays for the orb of eternity. Always a good choice. Durability is much more important to your army than AP 2, which it will have enough of once it is close enough to actually use the flamer
Definitely don't know about that one. Resurrection Orbs are already extremely questionable at best with their once per game effect and high price. They're best suited to fending off combat Deathstars, and otherwise mean even less shooting in an army already not putting out massed troop gunlines.
I ran the annihilation nexus the other day and it was nightfighting which made it absolutely rubbish, everything had a super cover save - so unless im missing some rules about hte model or playing nightfighting wrong - i will never take it again, on the off chance that i have to do nightfighting again.
I'm sure in a day time game it would go gangbusters though. i just find the risk to high that it will be nightfighting and a large chunk of my force will be wasted.
Resonance wrote: I ran the annihilation nexus the other day and it was nightfighting which made it absolutely rubbish, everything had a super cover save - so unless im missing some rules about hte model or playing nightfighting wrong - i will never take it again, on the off chance that i have to do nightfighting again.
I'm sure in a day time game it would go gangbusters though. i just find the risk to high that it will be nightfighting and a large chunk of my force will be wasted.
Well, it's generally only night fighting for one turn, right?
It's ridiculously easy to go into AV 13 Overload w/ the annihilation nexus as a formation and a cad , I mean I guess you'd need flying support ...maybe. All I know is that 9 Walkers is 1125.
Normal Cad
Barge Lord w/ Phase Shifter , Warscythe
You could probably split those Immortals up into two groups anyway, right? Oh, wait, I just realized that's by design for your Olord's retinue. Or maybe drop the spares and bring a CCB for the Olord.
Solid list, though. I think those FOs and Canopteks are going to work very well together.
schadenfreude wrote: CCB is good, but I don't think it will work in a list that has no other AV units. I'm afraid that would just make him a lascannons magnet.
The list has subroutining Spyders, and I'd rather have them shoot my jinking command barge, with the unoneshottable rider who re-rolls ones on reanimation. Even with ignores cover it'll take eight or so lascannon hits to bring him down.
The Barge is still extremely durable. Even a BS5 railgun with ignores cover, which instakills the rider, only has a 21% chance of taking out the vehicle in one hit. Of course there's a 42% chance of a downed shield, making it highly susceptible to being HYMPed to death, but still, if it takes a squad of Pathfinders, a Hammerhead or two AND a couple of Broadsides to bring it down, he's not hitting the rest of your army particularly hard.
Okapi wrote: The Barge is still extremely durable. Even a BS5 railgun with ignores cover, which instakills the rider, only has a 21% chance of taking out the vehicle in one hit. Of course there's a 42% chance of a downed shield, making it highly susceptible to being HYMPed to death, but still, if it takes a squad of Pathfinders, a Hammerhead or two AND a couple of Broadsides to bring it down, he's not hitting the rest of your army particularly hard.
Even against the railgun, after it takes out the shields then you just take all of the HYMPed off of the lord who if you kit him out right, needs to take a lot of shots before he dies. The barge is stupid durable to shooting, if only that was the case for it in CC it would be a nightmare unit.
I seriously have trouble with taking the CCB now. It's a glorified distraction Carnifex. Tough, but it doesn't really kill things. Either
a) You give it a Warscythe and dance around only attacking things that can't kill the Chariot easily (so not a lot)
Or
b) Give it a Staff of Light and try to pick things off with AP3 shooting while hoping not to get charged
Neither is great, and unless you follow him around with Tomb Blades he's always just gonna be alone. I suppose he can go around trying to kill off things like TFCs and Wave Serpents, but once he's in the back line don't expect much survival.
What? The Barge is great! If you're running a Decurion it extends the range of the RP re-roll, and while it obviously won't beat high strength close combat monsters and units full of powerfists, it can take on just about anything else. D6 S6 hits + 4 WS5 S7 AP2 hits will take any non-walker vehicle apart, and seriously hurt anything from Tactical Marines to Dire Avengers. I'd happily charge Hive Tyrants and Riptides as well, if the Overlord is reasonably intact. They don't have the attacks to reliably take him out, and if they do decide to smash, they need a 3+ followed by a 4+ and then a 5+ to make it explode. If they can't, well, then it's four warscythe strikes to the face.
Any unit with grenades (read: pretty much any Space Marine variant) can just spam the vehicle to death.
With the big threats nowadays being things like Knights (can't fight), Strength D weapons (will just straight kill him) and Daemon Summoning (will eventually wear him down and can't be swept), his purpose is very limited. Depending on the army, there might only be one thing on the table worth charging. That's a lot to ask for something around 200 points depending on upgrades.
Resonance wrote: I ran the annihilation nexus the other day and it was nightfighting which made it absolutely rubbish, everything had a super cover save - so unless im missing some rules about hte model or playing nightfighting wrong - i will never take it again, on the off chance that i have to do nightfighting again.
I'm sure in a day time game it would go gangbusters though. i just find the risk to high that it will be nightfighting and a large chunk of my force will be wasted.
Night fighting only lasts for one turn if its rolled on turn 1.
krodarklorr wrote: I personally like running the barge as an AP3 gun platform now. I use the buff to the fullest and just shoot out 5 AP3 shots each turn.
What sort of wargear options do you use? Do you find something like the Phase Shifter to still be worthwhile?
krodarklorr wrote: I personally like running the barge as an AP3 gun platform now. I use the buff to the fullest and just shoot out 5 AP3 shots each turn.
The problem with that is what can you shoot at that won't just charge you, with 12" range on the staff if you shoot a unit then it'll just charge you if it isn't dead and then your stuck in combat forever or until they kill you, you aren't winning any combat with 3 str5 attacks even a tau squad would hold you down indefinately.
The shooty barge is a nice idea but impractical, the lord needs the scythe so it has a chance to win combats against throwaway units your opponent can just throw into it without repercussions. Now the str7 ap2 flamer makes your barge have great shooting for 1 turn, and it's hard to find a situation where you can't kill 30pts worth of troops with that ridiculous flamer and the barges speed.
Requizen wrote: Any unit with grenades (read: pretty much any Space Marine variant) can just spam the vehicle to death.
With the big threats nowadays being things like Knights (can't fight), Strength D weapons (will just straight kill him) and Daemon Summoning (will eventually wear him down and can't be swept), his purpose is very limited. Depending on the army, there might only be one thing on the table worth charging. That's a lot to ask for something around 200 points depending on upgrades.
The Barge is AV13, so krak grenades can't hurt it. There might be a single melta bomb in there, but even that still needs to hit, penetrate and 'splode, which is a 20% chance or so. As for the Knight, I definitely wouldn't charge in the Barge solo, but supporting Wraith and Scarabs? Sure! It only has three attacks at WS4, and it still needs to wound, so on average it'll just barely kill him, and if it doesn't those four WS5 S7 armourbane attacks will probably take off a hull point or two. This will also let the bugs do a number on the monster undisturbed.
In any case, spending 200 points on him is probably overkill; just stick give him a warscythe and stop at 155. Which similarly costed units pose any kind of threat to him?
Requizen wrote: In any case, spending 200 points on him is probably overkill; just stick give him a warscythe and stop at 155. Which similarly costed units pose any kind of threat to him
I agree with this, 155 points for a fast durable unit that digs out small squads of backfield objective holders and easily pops tanks is pretty good.
If your opponent plays larger squads with no tanks he would probably be useless.
Requizen wrote: Any unit with grenades (read: pretty much any Space Marine variant) can just spam the vehicle to death.
With the big threats nowadays being things like Knights (can't fight), Strength D weapons (will just straight kill him) and Daemon Summoning (will eventually wear him down and can't be swept), his purpose is very limited. Depending on the army, there might only be one thing on the table worth charging. That's a lot to ask for something around 200 points depending on upgrades.
The Barge is AV13, so krak grenades can't hurt it. There might be a single melta bomb in there, but even that still needs to hit, penetrate and 'splode, which is a 20% chance or so. As for the Knight, I definitely wouldn't charge in the Barge solo, but supporting Wraith and Scarabs? Sure! It only has three attacks at WS4, and it still needs to wound, so on average it'll just barely kill him, and if it doesn't those four WS5 S7 armourbane attacks will probably take off a hull point or two. This will also let the bugs do a number on the monster undisturbed.
In any case, spending 200 points on him is probably overkill; just stick give him a warscythe and stop at 155. Which similarly costed units pose any kind of threat to him?
Absolutely agree with this, a barebones CCB with a war scythe is a fast skimmer that due to negligible shooting can jink and flat out all day, grab distant objectives and is a huge threat to vehicles and backfield artillery. No need to pay too much for him.
The barge is also a great way to hit things with the ST7 AP2 Template. It's way different than what it was though.
I think the Destroyer Lord get's overlooked to much the guy is basically a Non-Monstrous Creature MC.
Like you can almost make him unkillable and he can be a beast in CC, Destroyer Lords are really where the CC beasts are but there's no stand out unit that's all things.
Hollismason wrote: The barge is also a great way to hit things with the ST7 AP2 Template. It's way different than what it was though.
I think the Destroyer Lord get's overlooked to much the guy is basically a Non-Monstrous Creature MC.
Like you can almost make him unkillable and he can be a beast in CC, Destroyer Lords are really where the CC beasts are but there's no stand out unit that's all things.
He's hard to get across the table now that he's Jet. If he stick with Destroyers he can boogie along pretty well with Thrust moves, but there's no more sticking him with Wraiths and just zipping across from A to B.
bodazoka wrote: I still think the best unit to pair with the DL are the flayed ones. cheap ablative wounds that help him tear through fearless infantry.
The Legion of Horror idea also works really well thematically.
Saying you can't move him across the board with Wraiths is an exaggeration... They lose fleet, but they didn't even have that rule last edition.
Only major issue is not being able to put him up front with perfect reliability, and honestly that's never what I took him for. He's there to add preferred enemy and a reliable source of AP2 Armourbane to clear assault targets quicker.
He's even better now that he can replace the flip a coin for it to work Mindshackle Scarabs of last edition with an actual invulnerable save and the option for IWND, meaning that challenges against combat monsters who'd previously shred him if the Mindshackle test failed get at least one 4++/6+++ even when targeted by a force weapon.
What's the new recommendation for long range high strength shots? Doomsday Ark or Doom Scythe? Night Shroud? Pylon is attractive but a bit to pricey, in cash, for my taste right now.
Has anyone tried the Anni Nexus formation?
jay_mo wrote: Question - Would you guys prefer running 6 models of Canoptek Wraiths as one unit, or as 2 units with 3 models in each?
What are the advantages and disadvantages with the two options?
The correct answer is 3 units of 6 as decided by the Internet.
Had to log in to agree with this. Such a brutal list. A unit of six is nice because any opponent can thin down a unit by putting a few wounds on, even with the 3++. Once you kill one or two, a unit of 3 wraiths is pretty much...gone.
Ferros wrote: What's the new recommendation for long range high strength shots? Doomsday Ark or Doom Scythe? Night Shroud? Pylon is attractive but a bit to pricey, in cash, for my taste right now.
Has anyone tried the Anni Nexus formation?
Heavy destroyers have been putting in work for me so far, pretty much are the all-stars of my games. Last few games Ive run a destroyer cult + a normal HS squad of Heavy destroyers + an anni nexus with wraiths to mop up. It's been working well. This week im going to drop the cult for a second squad of wraiths and just spam heavy destroyers and see how that works.
As for the anni nexus I like it as a way to get more HS if I already max out like say with 3 squads of heavy destroyers. Barges are still good, despite what people will tell you. I've yet to be impressed with the doomsday ark but its something that scares people and makes a decent area denial weapon or something people pour shots into instead of things like wraiths and destroyers which I'm ok with.
Has anyone worked with Orikan + Shieldguard at all? I've run it a couple times now, and while it's durable, there's no real way to get it across the board. I used it as an unkillable objective squatter and as semi mobile cover for my Destroyers, as few things will voluntarily get close to them lest they get charged by the unkillable shield wall.
I've been going back and forth between that and the Conclave of the Burning One (kitted out with Phase Shifters and Solar Staff) as what Deathstar I want to bring. Both are tough, the Conclave has shooting + Gaze, but the Orikanstar is more durable and better at killing most things in Assault.
jay_mo wrote: Question - Would you guys prefer running 6 models of Canoptek Wraiths as one unit, or as 2 units with 3 models in each?
What are the advantages and disadvantages with the two options?
The correct answer is 3 units of 6 as decided by the Internet.
Had to log in to agree with this. Such a brutal list. A unit of six is nice because any opponent can thin down a unit by putting a few wounds on, even with the 3++. Once you kill one or two, a unit of 3 wraiths is pretty much...gone.
Disagree. I prefer spamming min units and usually vanilla load out or TransD on wraiths. I love the Spyder. And once the spam count goes high enough you start to get great board coverage with all the scarabs + spyders. But sure for just a 2 unit wraithwing with a specified role, the 6 wraiths can definitely be the right call.
With the Decurion I feel 3 units of 3 Wraiths w/ Transdimensional Beamers is the way to go.
Here are my reasons
1. It makes Wraiths more survivable in general because of the Canoptek Harvest Bonus
2. It gives you 9 individual units total, six of which move at 12"
3. It gives you the ability to not withstanding the whole kill the Spyders to produce 15 additional Scarabs
4. It's MSU so you're opponent won't be just focus firing at one unit.
5. It can be safely held in reserve hopefully gain the 2nd turn bring on and then get the bonus, the units are generally pretty fast so they can be where they need to be w/ Run + Move
6. Transdimensional Beamers x9 is pretty amazing.
7. It gives you 21 models total
8. 3 Squads of 3+ Scarabs can be pretty nasty.
9. It's a more efficient Scarab Farm because they can use RP to avoid the wound.
10. It gives you 3 Models that are T6 , which is beneficial as 3 individual units of Spyders means that if they group together or near each other one can charge eat overwatch and then the rest can pile in.
11. Same reason as before but 9 individual Scarab units with 4 + RP is great to attack Centurions with one unit can eat overwatch and the others can pile in , instead of one unit of 9 getting shot to pieces. They can also avoid Overwatch for the Wraiths by charging first.
It comes to 780 which is plenty of points left over to take the requirements for the Decurion and even some squads of Flayed Ones and Tomb Blades.
Col Impact and Hollismason raise some good points. I just prefer not to give up kill points so easily. And when you talk about combat effectiveness, it just drops off so drastically when you lose wraiths. Basically, if you start with a unit of 3 and lose even 1 or 2, all you can hope for is a tarpit. A unit of 4/5 wraiths, on the other hand, is still going to murder things. It just depends on what you're looking to do with the unit. If you want it to tarpit/exert board control, smaller units is better. If you want it to be more effective in combat and not give up a kill point so easily (not to mention that by default you are including additional overall kill points in your army as a result) then larger squads are better. I prefer large squads, but that's not to say that you can't make smaller ones work. You just have to taper your expectations accordingly.
Yeah , it's definitely a tactical decision on how you run them but I will say it does not have a decrease in ability.
The main reason is their fearless. So I know 2 Squads of 3 is the same as 1 squad of six , so I'll usually keep 1 squad near another almost as if they're in coherency.
I sometimes run 2 squads one with 6 one with 3 to 4 just depending.
Basically MSU is it's own thing but the fact that their fearless means I get to keep them. So even though I may have a squad of 3 go down to 1 , I'm just going to "buddy" up that 1 wraith with the other 3 and use it as something to eat overwatch with.
I don't know if MSU really works as effectively without fearless units because of the potential to "lose" the whole squad, which is why I'm not like 100 percent sold on the whole multiple squads of 5 Flayed Ones.
The decision to MSU the wraiths also depends on the multiple spider rules debate. If (operative word if) multiple spiders are a no go then MSU maximizes the number of ro spiders.
I have a friend who effectively thinks scarabs are worthless, do you have any recommendations on how to ruin his preconception of scarabs both in list and tactics?
Nilok wrote: I have a friend who effectively thinks scarabs are worthless, do you have any recommendations on how to ruin his preconception of scarabs both in list and tactics?
Spamming the Canoptek Formation out of a Decurion should do the trick. RP goes a long way with fixing any issues with Scarabs.
There are some full farm lists earlier in this thread, with 10+ Spyders
Nilok wrote: What are the best targets for scarabs now that entropic strike has changed?
Vehicles. They can glance a lot. Anything t7 and up is going to have a save and will ID bases.
Tarpit is the other use. Anything that doesn't I'd them is a good target. 9 tactical marines will only average 1.33 wounds per turn after rp. A single spider will generate new bases faster than they can kill them. A unit needs to land 9 regular wounds per turn to kill 1 base after armor and rp. Anything that lands less than 12 per turn should stay tarpit 1 round per scarabs base starting the combat. Power weapons and rende are not against scarabs, it takes 6 ignore armor wounds to.drop the base spiders can generate.
I think the 2nd one could use some work. I'm not sure who Orikan is going with, I think if you got those two huge squads of Flayed Ones, you need to stick a D-Lord in there because he brings Anti-Vehicle and AV .
I think you could actually get some Wraiths in there to.
I don't run Scarab farms that often, so I mean those are my suggestions. I like the big feth off Flayed One units. I think them and Wraiths are a smart add to Scarab Farm, very nasty CC units
My changes
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe , Phase Shifter , Res Orb
Got a game in with the Crons last night. I toned down my wraithwing list (read: I took out 12 wraiths) as it was against a rather suboptimal blood Angels list. We played an Adepticon scenario to try it out. Was a nice format.
I got to try out the Triarch stalker and tomb blades for the first time. The tomb blades didn't really get to showcase their mobility, as I kept drawing the objective that was in their corner. But no complaints - they owned it! The stalker did moderately well but his vehicles were all hiding like little girls in cover (as they should have).
The ghost ark did work though. First turn 3 hull points off of a land raider. Could easily have done four for first blood but had some bad dice in the end (this included the guys inside of course)
Nightbringer finally met his match, as he couldn't quite stare hard enough at some scouts, then marneus Calgar and his honor guard came out and punked him. At least the ensuing explosion got some retribution.
Got an amazing max distance objecive grab from the night scythe (36" across the board and 6" up two levels of ruins) right on turn 2.
Played the full Wraithstar with a 240 pt D lord as well as Orikan (really enjoyed using the Gauntlet to overwatch a squad of terminators). All of the regular terminators were dead before they got to swing at I1. The captain was locked in a challenge with my lord since he had an AP 3 weapon. There's just nothing that they can't mulch. The only annoying thing was marines and their ATSKNF, as I would have swept squads and won faster. But dem's da breaks.
Yes and no. Wraiths can still move unimpeded for 1/2 turns by conga lining, and I roll for MOA most of the time to try and negate hammer and anvil, or to let the Nightbringer get a turn 1 gaze in. While Orikan does lag behind, the combat pile ins help him catch up. The destroyer lord has had no real issues thus far with his assault move turn 1, as he just needs to roll a 5/6 or higher and he is able to stay out front and tank.
Whereas the shield guard really need alternative deployment even in dawn of war to get a reasonable chance at a turn 3 charge, the Wraithstar has no issues getting a turn 2 charge in most situations
anyone else been running lots of heavy destroyers? I'm curious what you think a good number is. Ive been running 6 up to now and was thinking of trying 9 out tomorrow but I think it might be overkill.
I've been trying it out and the more I use it the more I like playing with the Destroyer Cult and using it to it's maximum potential. Like upwars of 12 + , it's just incredibly efficient and deadly, suffers versus 2+ but don't care really.
Cult Heavies should have zero issue cleaning up Vehicles rapidly, so you can move on to any 2+ targets after that.
Unless you're playing against Grey Knights, in which case the only real answer a mostly Destroyer Cult army has is to use Jet moves to climb high and stay out of assault reach.
I think people forget the assault moves, honestly. I've never had them assaulted. I pretty much just move my Destroyers every single turn usually trying to push to one side just because they're fast enough to get away.
Realistically you can't keep the whole army 30 inches away all game long. Staying on top of terrain is important, especially with move through cover keeping you from needing to make tests.
Well you can if you got some Anchor units or a big threat like a 20 man Flayed One w/ D-Lord between them and the enemy. No one wants to charge that. I mean you gotta change things up of course but yeah I've not really had issue with them.
Also I really enjoy Beta Strike lists now, tried one out with the D- Lord of Invincibility manning a Aegis w/ Comm Link, was particularly pleased.
Hollismason wrote: So you're running Wraith Star and Coven of the Burning One or just straight Nightbringer?
I've only done the Conclave once. I will definitely try it out more, but I'm playing in an upcoming tournament with no formations allowed, so I am getting in some games with just a normal Necron CAD for the time being. Turns out that the Nightbringer is somewhat low on the target priority chain when you have 18 wraiths barreling down on you
Would if I had aforementioned large warrior blobs. Was never my style, but obsec warriors, immortals and night scythes/GA with maxed red orbs would definitely do very well
I know some formations are considered to be independent detachments, so is it possible to run a conclave of the burning one alongside a decurion if a tournament allows multiple detachments?
Conclave of the Burning One Nightbringer
Cryptek with Veil
Cryptek with God Shackle
1999pts
Going with a Mephrit spirit here; small, elite force with destructive potential.
No fancy tricks or cunning strategy here... just in your face action on round 2.
The idea is the put Nemesor with one of the warrior blocks. Both warrior groups, the conclave, and the blades start on the board and as far away in cover as possible.
At the start of round 2, Nemesor switches traits to improve reserve rolls. The Obelisk drops in right away thanks to its rules, and hopefully both monoliths follow suit and don't scatter because of the obelisk. The formation rules then allow a group of immortals to disembark from each monolith, followed by the normal eternity gate rules allowing a group of warriors to teleport right after. Outflanking flayed ones should also arrive at this time, followed by the conclave deepstriking in close with the veil.
At this point, the entire army is directly on top of the enemy and going for the kill.
Necron Players don't let Necron Players take Monoliths
Seriously , Don't take Monoliths unless you are building a themed list, they're basically like taking -200 points against your opponent. The conclave of the burning one is a strong formation it's also not partof the Decurion.
The army just doesn't have any real killy stuff other than the Flayed Ones.
Yeah two monoliths seems underwhelming, especially when you are gating in warriors and immortals instead of some killy cc stuff. The conclave and the flayed ones can already get up close quite easily. All you are really gaining from the monoliths is maybe a turn or two extra of rapid fire distance.
Alcibiades wrote: Deep Striking Land Raider with Living Metal, a battle cannon, four heavy bolters, and ability to teleport all other units = joke
Entirely a joke, yes.
It comes close, very close to being a good unit, but falls short in such specific ways as to be next to useless.
The role a Monolith is designed around is being a near-invulnerable beachhead which opens tactical options. In balance, it's slow and has low firepower for points spent.
Problem is, it hasn't quite got the durability it needs for that role. AV 14 and 4 hull points? Sure, but there's plenty of ways to instantly remove that and it's old 3rd edition immunity to Melta/Armourbane and so forth was what made it's durability one of the prime selling points.
Second problem is that Ordinance is a useless rule on a S8 AP3 large blast, and renders it's secondary fire worthless.
That's it. All it needs and it would be great. Just like how Pyrovores would suddenly be great if they were T5 Beasts but kept all their other stats intact. It's a ruleset where small tweaks make massive differences.
The Land Raider meanwhile is an Assault Vehicle that can choose to move 12 inches, and pays a premium for that ability that's factored into it's cost.
As a side note, looking back at the 3rd edition Monolith again I think I prefer how it handles Flux Arcs too. Short range, but punishes you for standing right next to the slow moving enemy vehicle you should really have been able to outrun.
It's actually worse than the 5th edition codex it lost the Exile Ray thingie. It's all around just terribad as others have pointed out. It's a horrible point sink.
Hollismason wrote: It's actually worse than the 5th edition codex it lost the Exile Ray thingie. It's all around just terribad as others have pointed out. It's a horrible point sink.
Yeah, I proxied it a few times out of curiosity, and the only fun part of running it was the ability to park next to a unit and vacuum a third of them up.
Got a Grey Knight Librarian that way, presumably because he had no idea what a monolith can do since they're never fielded.
There is no such thing as independent detachments, there is only detachments. And all the formations are detachments except when they are in a "formation of formations" like the Decurion.
Hollismason wrote: It's actually worse than the 5th edition codex it lost the Exile Ray thingie. It's all around just terribad as others have pointed out. It's a horrible point sink.
I've actually used it with great success in two different games now. I just look at it as NOT a weapons platform, but a tactical addition to the army. The portal is nice, and the little mini guns are more worth something now. Also, it's 40 points cheaper than a land raider.
I'm not trying to say it's the most awesome thing ever created, but it isn't a point sink depending on the army you're running. Footcrons isn't actually a bad idea anymore, and Monoliths would fit in just fine.
Hollismason wrote: It's actually worse than the 5th edition codex it lost the Exile Ray thingie. It's all around just terribad as others have pointed out. It's a horrible point sink.
I've actually used it with great success in two different games now. I just look at it as NOT a weapons platform, but a tactical addition to the army. The portal is nice, and the little mini guns are more worth something now. Also, it's 40 points cheaper than a land raider.
I'm not trying to say it's the most awesome thing ever created, but it isn't a point sink depending on the army you're running. Footcrons isn't actually a bad idea anymore, and Monoliths would fit in just fine.
Yes, it's a tactical addition. One that entirely relies on durability it can only pretend to have to get the job done.
If you blindly luck into someone who can't handle AV14 it suddenly manages to do it's job. Still a fraction short on firepower with the snap fire thing though. Doesn't need to be great there, just not actively hindering itself.
Tyran wrote:Pyrovores are actually quite good if they are in a Tyrannocite.
Not really. It solves the delivery issue, but at a points hike instead of innately resolving it.
An improvement, but an improvement from "One of the worst units in the entire game" to "Overpriced".
I use mine with high pressure assault armies. It's a pretty cheap investment, and basically makes everyoen say " Get away Get Away". So I usually run it with Wraiths / Flayed Ones infiltrating.
True story - I actually plan to try out two monoliths teleporting units around the board. I think it would be great for maelstrom. And it has NOTHING to do with the fact that I am trading two models I don't use for them That large blob of flayed ones or warriors? Well they are on the other side of the board now! I think people are really underestimating their utility for a footslogging army. Throw in a royal court (read: a ton of cheap res orb lords and crypteks for increased RP and added durability) and I think you've got a stupidly durable army that is also stupidly mobile. Grab Obyron and maybe Orikan for durability/killing power as well as more mobility.
In other news, I just went to a 3 round RTT that was pure maelstrom and a ton of fun. I actually wound up taking home the W with a couple close calls. Never lost though. Used the same list I posted a few pages back but I'll throw it up again for posterity:
Spoiler:
Orikan
D Lord w/warscythe, phase shifter, nightmare shroud, phylactery, res orb
Played an Eldar player with far too much Lance and a ton of str 8 ap 2 so that was bad for him from the get go. Wraiths mulched vehicles and jet bikes alike and he never really was able to jump over my wraiths, plus he fed Nightbringer a few units because of maelstrom and then basically ran out of models at the end. Big victory 17-6
Played a Tyranid player with leviathan (which for some reason the TO said was a CAD for this event, meaning it gained obsec and lost nothing....but whatever. I knew that going in and almost brought leviathan myself but it didn't feel right) and he had a good list. Trip Flyrants, 2 crones, a Dakkafex, 6 hive guard, 2 drop pods w/20 gants, then one more unit of 10 gants. 3 Flyrants almost blew a squad of wraiths off the board turn 1, but then I got lucky and grounded a hive crone, which resulted in first blood. It was a sort of unfortunate game for him because there was one big kill box of 5 objectives very close to each other, which wraiths love. And Orikan Star loves even more. The gants probably would have been a tarpit, but I was able to pull them out of stnapse once with a pile in, and then the other unit, well wraiths have a lot of attacks it turns out. The one objective way out in nowhere-ville he had his Dakkafex parked on...I think it shot its guns once all game and never was targeted or got to assault. In short, I was actually up big but we roared through like 3 game turns in less than half an hour (yeah really) which allowed him to make a big comeback because I wasn't doing anything to his Flyrants. At the end it was literally just his 3 Flyrants alive (although one was locked in combat and going to die) and his carnifex. I had 3 wraiths, my d lord and Orikan, who never went super Saiyan although the game went 6 turns. As his Flyrants whittled me down (primarily in turns 5 and 6) he caught up and almost tied me, but I took it 14-12 if memory serves. It was closer than it should have been because of those lightening turns. I was up 5 for most of the game.
The last round was actually against a good friend of mine from my FLGS, so that was awesome. We were the only two undefeated players at that point (it was kind of a small turnout) so we knew this was for the cup. He just had a TON of obsec marines in drop pods. Also had a storm raven and two storm guppies. So it was the game of could I kill him fast enough. I caught a huge break when I got first turn, which meant that my units were able to cover 4 out of the 6 objectives. Didn't get much in the way of cards, but I blocked all three of his drop pods from coming down on any objective as a result (and some friendly scatter). So that was huge. I made some great charge rolls and Nightbringer just refused to die. He didn't have a ton of special weapons and I locked most of my stuff up in combat turn 2, but I had zero wraiths die on turn 2 or turn 3. Even so, those stupid marines refused to know any fear (aka I couldn't sweep them) and his librarian WOULD NOT DIE. Just 2W t4 3+ save, but I think it took me 5 rounds of combat to kill him with 2 wraiths (and 6 wraiths in that last round). At the end, though, I had him tied up and with my lord and Nightbringer rampaging around, I barely took it 10-8. Super close though.
Observations:
My ghost ark got popped for first blood 2 out of 3 games. That was more of a product of horrible luck than anything else, and the Warriors were spectacular. 5+ FNP is awesome.
The fighter ace uograde on my night scythe...probably going to ditch it. +1 BS is worthless with twin linked, and IWND rarely comes into play. The +1 RP is actually great but I have too many wraiths for it to be effective.
So some tweaks are in order but overall I'm really enjoying this list. 6-1 with it and I couldn't be happier
The monolith can only move Infantry or jump infantry units. No more Pokemon C'tan. but that strat wasn't used much from what i recall. but i liked using it.
luke1705 wrote: True story - I actually plan to try out two monoliths teleporting units around the board. I think it would be great for maelstrom. And it has NOTHING to do with the fact that I am trading two models I don't use for them That large blob of flayed ones or warriors? Well they are on the other side of the board now! I think people are really underestimating their utility for a footslogging army. Throw in a royal court (read: a ton of cheap res orb lords and crypteks for increased RP and added durability) and I think you've got a stupidly durable army that is also stupidly mobile. Grab Obyron and maybe Orikan for durability/killing power as well as more mobility.
In other news, I just went to a 3 round RTT that was pure maelstrom and a ton of fun. I actually wound up taking home the W with a couple close calls. Never lost though. Used the same list I posted a few pages back but I'll throw it up again for posterity:
Spoiler:
Orikan
D Lord w/warscythe, phase shifter, nightmare shroud, phylactery, res orb
Played an Eldar player with far too much Lance and a ton of str 8 ap 2 so that was bad for him from the get go. Wraiths mulched vehicles and jet bikes alike and he never really was able to jump over my wraiths, plus he fed Nightbringer a few units because of maelstrom and then basically ran out of models at the end. Big victory 17-6
Played a Tyranid player with leviathan (which for some reason the TO said was a CAD for this event, meaning it gained obsec and lost nothing....but whatever. I knew that going in and almost brought leviathan myself but it didn't feel right) and he had a good list. Trip Flyrants, 2 crones, a Dakkafex, 6 hive guard, 2 drop pods w/20 gants, then one more unit of 10 gants. 3 Flyrants almost blew a squad of wraiths off the board turn 1, but then I got lucky and grounded a hive crone, which resulted in first blood. It was a sort of unfortunate game for him because there was one big kill box of 5 objectives very close to each other, which wraiths love. And Orikan Star loves even more. The gants probably would have been a tarpit, but I was able to pull them out of stnapse once with a pile in, and then the other unit, well wraiths have a lot of attacks it turns out. The one objective way out in nowhere-ville he had his Dakkafex parked on...I think it shot its guns once all game and never was targeted or got to assault. In short, I was actually up big but we roared through like 3 game turns in less than half an hour (yeah really) which allowed him to make a big comeback because I wasn't doing anything to his Flyrants. At the end it was literally just his 3 Flyrants alive (although one was locked in combat and going to die) and his carnifex. I had 3 wraiths, my d lord and Orikan, who never went super Saiyan although the game went 6 turns. As his Flyrants whittled me down (primarily in turns 5 and 6) he caught up and almost tied me, but I took it 14-12 if memory serves. It was closer than it should have been because of those lightening turns. I was up 5 for most of the game.
The last round was actually against a good friend of mine from my FLGS, so that was awesome. We were the only two undefeated players at that point (it was kind of a small turnout) so we knew this was for the cup. He just had a TON of obsec marines in drop pods. Also had a storm raven and two storm guppies. So it was the game of could I kill him fast enough. I caught a huge break when I got first turn, which meant that my units were able to cover 4 out of the 6 objectives. Didn't get much in the way of cards, but I blocked all three of his drop pods from coming down on any objective as a result (and some friendly scatter). So that was huge. I made some great charge rolls and Nightbringer just refused to die. He didn't have a ton of special weapons and I locked most of my stuff up in combat turn 2, but I had zero wraiths die on turn 2 or turn 3. Even so, those stupid marines refused to know any fear (aka I couldn't sweep them) and his librarian WOULD NOT DIE. Just 2W t4 3+ save, but I think it took me 5 rounds of combat to kill him with 2 wraiths (and 6 wraiths in that last round). At the end, though, I had him tied up and with my lord and Nightbringer rampaging around, I barely took it 10-8. Super close though.
Observations:
My ghost ark got popped for first blood 2 out of 3 games. That was more of a product of horrible luck than anything else, and the Warriors were spectacular. 5+ FNP is awesome.
The fighter ace uograde on my night scythe...probably going to ditch it. +1 BS is worthless with twin linked, and IWND rarely comes into play. The +1 RP is actually great but I have too many wraiths for it to be effective.
So some tweaks are in order but overall I'm really enjoying this list. 6-1 with it and I couldn't be happier
Great Job! How are you liking the D-Lord, I've been raving about him for a while now people really don't realize how almost unkillable he is.
Did he ever die and how much fun was rolling 3 4++ ?
Whenever I do that it's just like super sad for my opponent their like wait he does what?!
D lord is stupid good. Re-rollable 2+ and then a 4+ (re-rollable for a single phase) means that he took 4 wounds all tournament long, and in my last game I divorced him from the Wraithstar on turn 2. He then proceeded to fail a single 4+/5++. Whoops lol.
But when he's attached to the wraith squad, I WANT you to shoot at him. Good opponents won't, and most armies can't deal with him and Orikan whaling on them, plus the unkillable wraiths with Orikan attached.
When it comes to Flayed Ones, do you think that multiple small squads are better or just one larger unit?
I feel that bringing, say, 3 min units of 5 gives you board control from Infiltrate, but a larger unit of 10-20 gives you an actual combat unit that works as a big speedbump/blender.
To use Orikan with wraiths you want to rely on deep striking the unit downfield or having Orikan leave a group that got him downfield (like Flayed Ones) and then join the wraiths when they get downfield. If you run lots of MSU Canoptek Harvests this is usually easy.
I don't think Flayed Ones in minimum squads are that great actually , because ultimately they have Warriors Survivability and they are not fearless. So having them break and run off isn't that fun.
To use Orikan with wraiths you want to rely on deep striking the unit downfield or having Orikan leave a group that got him downfield (like Flayed Ones) and then join the wraiths when they get downfield. If you run lots of MSU Canoptek Harvests this is usually easy.
Talking about using a Veil for both of those? He couldn't Deep Strike with them (not that Wraiths can Deep Strike anyway) neither could he Infiltrate with the Flayed Ones.
To use Orikan with wraiths you want to rely on deep striking the unit downfield or having Orikan leave a group that got him downfield (like Flayed Ones) and then join the wraiths when they get downfield. If you run lots of MSU Canoptek Harvests this is usually easy.
Talking about using a Veil for both of those? He couldn't Deep Strike with them (not that Wraiths can Deep Strike anyway) neither could he Infiltrate with the Flayed Ones.
I was thinking about veil in the first case and outflank in the second case. Thanks for noting that I wasn't being fully clear.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: I don't think Flayed Ones in minimum squads are that great actually , because ultimately they have Warriors Survivability and they are not fearless. So having them break and run off isn't that fun.
I like the big units.
Yea, their lack of fearless sucks. A large blob of them has synergy with a bargeLord. A re-rollable leadership 10 save is practically fearless to shooting and in CC they should be winning morale or just losing it barely.
Yea, their lack of fearless sucks. A large blob of them has synergy with a bargeLord. A re-rollable leadership 10 save is practically fearless to shooting and in CC they should be winning morale or just losing it barely.
Depends of what charges them. Imperial Knights, T8 MC, rerolleable 2+ or invisible units have a good chance of sweeping the FO.
Yea, their lack of fearless sucks. A large blob of them has synergy with a bargeLord. A re-rollable leadership 10 save is practically fearless to shooting and in CC they should be winning morale or just losing it barely.
Depends of what charges them. Imperial Knights, T8 MC, rerolleable 2+ or invisible units have a good chance of sweeping the FO.
You shouldn't be putting them in a position to be charged by those things. They are a board control unit more than a combat unit.
Yea, their lack of fearless sucks. A large blob of them has synergy with a bargeLord. A re-rollable leadership 10 save is practically fearless to shooting and in CC they should be winning morale or just losing it barely.
Depends of what charges them. Imperial Knights, T8 MC, rerolleable 2+ or invisible units have a good chance of sweeping the FO.
You shouldn't be putting them in a position to be charged by those things. They are a board control unit more than a combat unit.
Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.
Yeah it's why I think Outflanking them against armies that have those things the best option.
Or Deep STriking.
They're a amazing CC against all infantry, watching them demolish other CC units is part of the fun. They'll also beat down on Wraiths pretty hardcore.
Requizen wrote: Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.
Edit: Callidus'd
Again, why would you infiltrate near the center if you are facing a Knight.
Most of that type of units have 12" movement, so there goes board control.
Quite the opposite. That is exactly what board control means.
You simply put the Flayed Ones in a position that requires the enemy to respond in a certain manner. If they deploy these 12" things then you infiltrate the Flayed Ones to the sides and threaten flanks. You can even be cagey with it and set up 22 Inches away. See if your opponent will try a 10" charge. And even if he does and succeeds, then he has thrown his high value Knight, death star at a trash unit on the far side of the board. Meanwhile you gain flexibility to move without having to deal with that threat on the remainder of the board.
10 Spyders to buff the Canoptek Harvest Scarabs by 10 bases a turn.
2 additional units of scarabs to follow, and bubblewrap the rear, then eventually get pumped up.
2 CAD units of warriors with OBSEC to hold objectives in depolyment area.
A pretty much minimum Decurion to march across the battlefield and shoot stuff off of the enemy objectives.
1 unit of Flayed Ones to Deepstrike for line breaker, and cause general havoc.
It's a crap ton of hard to kill models, that the enemy needs to focus their attacks to remove any given unit, and any unit in the army is redundant.
I like to suicidally rush towards the enemy with the Tomb Blades. You'ld be suprised how much fire they will pour into them, and how much of it they can survive thanks to jink + RP.
19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board
1) where is that lord going, and why doesn't he have a res orb?
2) why are you taking the reclamation legion for just 1 Canoptek harvest? Have that be the formstion for your normal CAD 3) you can literally take your entire army under a normal CAD + harvest, losing out only on either a single unit of scarabs or the tomb blades (personally I think you can make enough scarabs)
4) with the points you save from doing #3 you could get some AA, some dedicated AT, or whatever your heart desires. I think more obsec > +1 RP
luke1705 wrote: I don't understand a few things in that list:
1) where is that lord going, and why doesn't he have a res orb?
2) why are you taking the reclamation legion for just 1 Canoptek harvest? Have that be the formstion for your normal CAD 3) you can literally take your entire army under a normal CAD + harvest, losing out only on either a single unit of scarabs or the tomb blades (personally I think you can make enough scarabs)
4) with the points you save from doing #3 you could get some AA, some dedicated AT, or whatever your heart desires. I think more obsec > +1 RP
The Decurion buffs the Harvest with +1 RP. Totally worth it. Personally I would run more MSU Canoptek Harvests with 2-3 Spyders per Harvest and skip the CAD
Everyone has their own opinion Hollismason. Some people prefer the CAD, and some people prefer Decurion. The benefits of both sides have clearly been laid out for everyone to decide, and the importance of obsec isn't something you can Mathhammer and say it is/isn't more important than +1 to FNP. Thankfully we will see how Adepticon shakes out in terms of Decurion vs non for the top tables (and I do expect Crons at the top tables) which will at least put to rest which is more competitive. Until then, we can all say "maybe"
Requizen wrote: Res Orbs are really meh now unless you're spamming them, they're just not worth the points cost imo.
But yeah, you could totally split that up into just CAD + Formation.
How are you defining "worth points cost"? Because by every metric that I can see, they absolutely are.
Say you don't have a Cryptek in the unit and you're not running Decurion (so worst case scenario for res orb efficiency)
You're also going to have a unit of 10 warriors (cheapest per body, so again worst case)
Say that you get shot up and are looking at 20 wounds (a lot of shots, I know, but you're going to pop the orb to save them). So you save half with 4+ armor. Down to 10. Then with 5+ FNP you save 3 (ish) and you have 7 unsaved wounds left. You then save two more and lose only 5 warriors instead of 7, paying for the orb's cost plus 1 point extra saved.
Say you have a Cryptek (or are in Decurion) so have 4+ RP. Say you have 24 wounds, down to 12 after armor, 6 after RP, 3 after res orb. You only lose 3 models and save 3, netting you 39 saved points, or the cost of the res orb + 14.
You really can't overstate the value of durability in a turn-limited objectives game. And even if you do (and make the worst assumptions possible) you only need to save 2 extra guys to pay for the orb. That's not even mentioning having it on a tanking lord or something, where every saved wound can be as much as 70 points (how I run it)
Auxiliary
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (1 with Whipcoils)
You know what we've been through this argument multiple times someone suggests Scarab farm. You say here try this , we all point out that that's not the way the rules work. You try and turn it into some sort of quasi-philosophical ad hoc argument about the nature of man or whatever. It get's dropped then it comes back up again in 3 pages.
Otherwise you're advice is spot on but seriously stop telling people to do that , you're in the minority on this by like everyone (IE all major tournaments have it de facto be one Spyder).
Stop suggesting you can add spyders to a Canoptek Harvest.
luke1705 wrote: Everyone has their own opinion Hollismason. Some people prefer the CAD, and some people prefer Decurion. The benefits of both sides have clearly been laid out for everyone to decide, and the importance of obsec isn't something you can Mathhammer and say it is/isn't more important than +1 to FNP. Thankfully we will see how Adepticon shakes out in terms of Decurion vs non for the top tables (and I do expect Crons at the top tables) which will at least put to rest which is more competitive. Until then, we can all say "maybe"
I wasn't talking about that I was talking about the whole Add spyders to the Canoptek Harvest, I think it will be cool to see how things turn out at Adepticon.
Auxiliary
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (1 with Whipcoils)
You know what we've been through this argument multiple times someone suggests Scarab farm. You say here try this , we all point out that that's not the way the rules work. You try and turn it into some sort of quasi-philosophical ad hoc argument about the nature of man or whatever. It get's dropped then it comes back up again in 3 pages.
Otherwise you're advice is spot on but seriously stop telling people to do that , you're in the minority on this by like everyone (IE all major tournaments have it de facto be one Spyder).
Stop suggesting you can add spyders to a Canoptek Harvest.
I suggest it because that's what the rules unequivocally support. Tournaments and local scenes can HYWPI however you like it. And if your local group wants to play it a certain way then good for you. But for you I think you need to seriously stop pretending that you have rules support. Get together with your buds and vote on it and knock yourself out. But dakka dakka assumes RAW and quit misinforming people that you somehow have RAW. I have abundantly shown in this thread that I have RAW support.
He's frustrated that people would rather be slightly more durable than have the ability to contest/score objectives.
FWIW, I agree with him. Without obsec, you can't score any contested objective, nor can you contest any objective held by an obsec unit. Unless you plan on tabling your opponent, that's a problem. You will be alive at the end of the game, but if you're playing objectives, you won't have any. I've yet to see any Decurion list that I thought had enough killing power to deal with any competitive army. How do you deal with Daemon summoning? Flyrant spam? CentStar who actually can kill you? Obsec spam marines? They are as durable as you, or close. Can you kill all of them? If not, you won't own objectives. Same with the scouts that are almost as durable as you but cheaper and more numerous.
Edit: I was wrong about that assumption. I'll leave it there as I think it has its own merit; however col_impact I think it is misleading to state 2/3 Spyders in a harvest as a tactic that everyone will use. I have not seen a single tournament rule it that way, nor have I heard a single group say "that is HIWPI". So at the very least, for the benefit of those who don't keep up with all of this stuff, it's probably more honest to say "hey if your group looks at the rules and says this is how we're going to play it, try this out". But don't assume that as the norm because for the majority of people it clearly is not right now.
Especially because your argument for RAW utilizes a loophole that most casual players would never think could even exist, and upon hearing your arguments I am not convinced is RAW myself. But please, let's let that stand as is in YMDC and let people decide for themselves and talk about established tactics
1) where is that lord going, and why doesn't he have a res orb?
That lord is following the swarm and spyders to give them rerolls of 1s.
I don't like the new ResOrb, so I don't take it.
2) why are you taking the reclamation legion for just 1 Canoptek harvest? Have that be the formstion for your normal CAD
4+ RP I'm only taking the CAD to get 9 additional Spyders
4) with the points you save from doing #3 you could get some AA, some dedicated AT, or whatever your heart desires.
Not much AA needed in my local Meta, and I dislike what little is left for dedicated AT in the Nercon Codex.
I appreciate your input, and it is solid advice if I wanted to make a more general purpose list.
Especially because your argument for RAW utilizes a loophole that most casual players would never think could even exist, and upon hearing your arguments I am not convinced is RAW myself.
I'm playing with 1 Spyder in the formation, pending the FAQ, to cut down on arguments, but it's not some strained loophole .
The formation clearly lists no restrictions, adding additional spyders is a standard upgrade.
RAW there should be nothing preventing you from adding addtional Spyders.
I can see why tournaments, and anyone who plays against Necrons, want it ruled the other way as an attempt to power balance.
If the lord is simply following the swarm, why did you deck him out with so much ? Do your Tomb Blades really draw that much fire to use them as a distraction and not as a objective grabber?
RAW there should be nothing preventing you from adding addtional Spyders.
RAW there certainly is. The YDMC thread proved that.
Feel free to restate or repost that argument using copy paste technology. In this very thread my argument stands uncontested. No counter argument has stood up against it. Feel free to open up your rule book and try to do so instead of pointing vaguely at some thread.
Consider this a broad call out to anyone who thinks they have a RAW counter argument. There is literally no rules support for restricting the Canoptek Harvest to 1 Spyder. If anyone thinks otherwise they can share their argument with this thread and I will show how it can easily be toppled. Otherwise quit misleading people about RAW and focus instead on a HYWPI argument, which I fully endorse you doing. Just quit misleading.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's a version of Canoptek farm running ally and two objSec
Auxiliary
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
2x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (1 with Whipcoils)
Tau Ally
Ethereal
XV104 Riptide Ion accelerator, Twin-linked smart missile system, Velocity tracker
10x Kroot
10x Kroot
The Riptide is a better long-range artillery option than anything Necron offers (including the Doomsday cannon) and Kroot are better troops than anything Necron natively offers so the Ethereal tax seems trivial and the Tau ally is a straight up upgrade for the Decurion.
Notice this list has no vehicles at all so all AV from the opponent is blanked. Also, no air so the opponent's AA is wasted points. Also the riptide provides awesome AA and horde control that is going to last the whole game since the opponent has tons of other stuff to worry about and the Riptide is crazy durable.
This list just seeks to gum up the board with fearless durable beasts and monsters. The reclamation legion provides some objective grabbing and fire support and a decent backfield gunline but the core of this list is the farm.
The way this list beats Knights is easy. Just use your movement phase and a fearless unit (ideally scarabs) to fence in a Knight. Do NOT assault the Knight. The Knight will be unable to move fully on its turn if you fence him in right and account for counterfire, wound allocation, and opponent counters. Sure the Knight will kill everything in CC in 1 turn, but what defeats the Knight is for it to lose its movement. It can't jump over troops in its way.
You are actually being the one that's misleading by stating you can when every tournament, and the large majority say you cannot because RAW it states 1 Spyder.
Hollismason wrote: You are actually being the one that's misleading by stating you can when every tournament, and the large majority say you cannot because RAW it states 1 Spyder.
I am not misleading. RAW arguments are not decided by votes or by tourney popularity but by actually forming rational arguments using the rules. So far I am the only who has a rational and consistent argument that uses the rules. Therefore not only do I claim a RAW argument but I claim an uncontested RAW argument.
Hollismason, I am calling you out. Feel free to present what you think is a rational and consistent argument using the rules and I will happily show how its toppled by the rules.
If you are trying to maintain that since the formation says "1 Spyder" that that is enough for a solid case then you are woefully mistaken.
First, can you prove whether "1 Spyder" refers to a model or a unit? Unless you can prove that it refers unequivocally to a model then your whole argument falls completely apart as I will gladly show should you want to continue.
RAW there should be nothing preventing you from adding addtional Spyders.
RAW there certainly is. The YDMC thread proved that.
Unless other people's codexes have something printed in the Canoptek Swarms restrictions box, I highly doubt it.
I understand that the language used describes a singular model. Since the singular model is what is required for the formation, the singular language makes sense.
The lack of ANY restrictions to the fomation, allows for ANY legal upgrade.
Additional models is an upgrade.
The Destroyer Cult tells us we have to have a minimum of 3 models per squad.
If there were a RAW limit to a single Spyder, it would have to be listed in the Restrictions.
Taking the singular language as proof of only a single model being allowed is a RAI argument.
This thread would go smoother if we all just ignored posts about the Spyder situation that we disagree with. Certainly the rule is contentious enough that it can be played both ways, and there's nothing wrong with discussing tactics for playing it either way.
Tournaments can rule how they like, there's nothing wrong with discussing tactics for armies that don't follow their house rules. Adepticon is going to allow re embarking on night scythes, something for which there is no rules support whatsoever, so we can all be forgiven for not taking their rulings as the final word on the matter.
Hollismason wrote: You are actually being the one that's misleading by stating you can when every tournament, and the large majority say you cannot because RAW it states 1 Spyder.
To be fair you kinda called him out on it and so are the one (technically) who bought it back up again.
Tekron wrote: This thread would go smoother if we all just ignored posts about the Spyder situation that we disagree with. Certainly the rule is contentious enough that it can be played both ways, and there's nothing wrong with discussing tactics for playing it either way.
Tournaments can rule how they like, there's nothing wrong with discussing tactics for armies that don't follow their house rules. Adepticon is going to allow re embarking on night scythes, something for which there is no rules support whatsoever, so we can all be forgiven for not taking their rulings as the final word on the matter.
This is also relevant to your argument about following tournament rulings.
We can all agree that there is a disagreement. It's best to just chill out in the tactics section and go super saiyan in YMDC until a major tournament makes a ruling on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is how I chose to paint my crons. I could do a 2000 point army in 30 minutes with a can of metallic spray and quick shade dip, but I love the way my crons look and I really truly must hate myself to go yellow and blue. If a major TO gives the green light to multiple spiders I would seriously cry because that means I would have to finish 7 more spiders.
Alcibiades wrote: Deep Striking Land Raider with Living Metal, a battle cannon, four heavy bolters, and ability to teleport all other units = joke
Overpriced maybe, but the use in that is obvious
Yeah, it's really not a joke at all. Particularly now that one of the best units we have, Heavy Destroyers, can use Mono's to grab a 0+ cover save, it has a variety of quite strong tactical uses.
Apparently most people play against 2000 points worth of drop melta, because that's the only way I can see people thinking it's not durable. From my estimation, if you are consistently loosing an AV 14 4 HP unit early, you are doing something tragically wrong, and it's not the unit's fault.
Anyway, YMMV, as always. However, when you combine it's fire out put, with it's ability to give 0+ cover saves, and it's ability to swap Ob Sec units around the board, I think it's a unit the functions pretty well. I don't think it's anywhere near the best unit in the Codex, but it's fully functional, and gives you options that cannot be replicated by any other unit.
What's an average Battle Cannon cost, like 130 points? So, for 70 points more, you can pass 0+ cover saves to your units, get 4 snap shooting Gauss Heavy Bolters, and the ability to redeploy any of your Infantry?
I dunno know. That seems about right, to me. Particularly if you are playing in a planet bowling ball like tournament. /shrug.
Alcibiades wrote: Deep Striking Land Raider with Living Metal, a battle cannon, four heavy bolters, and ability to teleport all other units = joke
Overpriced maybe, but the use in that is obvious
What's an average Battle Cannon cost, like 130 points? So, for 70 points more, you can pass 0+ cover saves to your units, get 4 snap shooting Gauss Heavy Bolters, and the ability to redeploy any of your Infantry?
I dunno know. That seems about right, to me. Particularly if you are playing in a planet bowling ball like tournament. /shrug.
Real Battle Cannons have 72" range and even then are mediocre compared to the other options. I haven't seen a vanilla Lemon Russ in a while.
That extra range is nice, and all, but it's not like Misslesides had trouble hitting things, and they have the exact same range as the Mono.
Anyway, it's offensive prowess is secondary to why you are taking. Obviously, if all you want is a powerful pie plate, DAs are a superior option. Mono does a bunch of stuff, one of them is drop 8/3 ord blasts.
ShadarLogoth wrote: That extra range is nice, and all, but it's not like Misslesides had trouble hitting things, and they have the exact same range as the Mono.
Anyway, it's offensive prowess is secondary to why you are taking. Obviously, if all you want is a powerful pie plate, DAs are a superior option. Mono does a bunch of stuff, one of them is drop 8/3 ord blasts.
Yes I agree. I was responding to your comparison of the average Battle Cannon cost. I'm not sure how a Mono can be compared to a Missleside at all.
19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board
If you position them right, you can have the 10 extra bases go across no man's land for a turn 1 charge since they removed the restriction requiring new scarabs to be in cohesion with non-spawed scarabs.
Daisy chain them straight into the face of your opponent's midfield for a nice big claw filled hug, then give them 10 extra bases while they are in combat because they removed that restriction as well.
I left this thread because it was impossible to go through one page without col_impact making his best attempt at getting the thread locked with his 'my argument stands uncontested' nonsense. He literally does not understand what contest means. I see nothing's changed.
Therion wrote: I left this thread because it was impossible to go through one page without col_impact making his best attempt at getting the thread locked with his 'my argument stands uncontested' nonsense. He literally does not understand what contest means. I see nothing's changed.
Carry on.
Feel free to stand up and put forward a rational, consistent argument that stands up to scrutiny like I have already in this thread and am prepared to do so again. Please do. I love a good challenge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zerosignal wrote: "In this very thread my argument stands uncontested. No counter argument has stood up against it. "
1 spyder.
1 spyder. Not 1 unit. Not spyders.
It even reiterates that in the special rule for the formation.
You are being deliberately ignorant, then claiming that your argument is uncontested, when in fact EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG is contesting it.
Anyway, I'm now going to ignore you, col_impact, and I suggest everyone else does too.
Same to you. Feel free to stand up and put forward a rational, consistent argument that stands up to scrutiny like I have already in this thread and am prepared to do so again. Please do. I love a good challenge.
You don't get to topple my argument with contentless posturing and pretending to have an argument. If you have an actual rational and consistent argument that follows from the rules and that holds up to scrutiny then by all means share it.
Sure people can 'contest' my argument but if they are contesting it with non-rational, inconsistent, and misleading arguments that don't follow the rules then they are not actually contesting it.
So yeah, my RAW argument (that actually follows rationally and consistently from the rules) stands uncontested.
We're clearly at the point where we are just re-stating ourselves. My bad for opening that can of worms back up.
How have people been finding the Canoptek harvest, both inside and outside of a scarab farm? I've actually yet to run it, as I've been doing standard wraithwing, more or less.
luke1705 wrote: We're clearly at the point where we are just re-stating ourselves. My bad for opening that can of worms back up.
How have people been finding the Canoptek harvest, both inside and outside of a scarab farm? I've actually yet to run it, as I've been doing standard wraithwing, more or less.
CAD Wraithwing is good for a dedicated CC unit (maybe with a D Lord). Will fit fine in a list that doesn't go heavy Canoptek.
As far as Harvest goes I am loving spamming min size units. Scarabs and Spyders have their hidden uses and are definitely not tax. If I add anything to a min unit its TransD beamers.
Requizen wrote: Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.
Edit: Callidus'd
Again, why would you infiltrate near the center if you are facing a Knight.
Most of that type of units have 12" movement, so there goes board control.
Quite the opposite. That is exactly what board control means.
You simply put the Flayed Ones in a position that requires the enemy to respond in a certain manner. If they deploy these 12" things then you infiltrate the Flayed Ones to the sides and threaten flanks. You can even be cagey with it and set up 22 Inches away. See if your opponent will try a 10" charge. And even if he does and succeeds, then he has thrown his high value Knight, death star at a trash unit on the far side of the board. Meanwhile you gain flexibility to move without having to deal with that threat on the remainder of the board.
Are we talking about small FO units or the large blob with the Bargelord that col_impact mentioned?
Therion wrote: I left this thread because it was impossible to go through one page without col_impact making his best attempt at getting the thread locked with his 'my argument stands uncontested' nonsense. He literally does not understand what contest means. I see nothing's changed.
Carry on.
Feel free to stand up and put forward a rational, consistent argument that stands up to scrutiny like I have already in this thread and am prepared to do so again. Please do. I love a good challenge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zerosignal wrote: "In this very thread my argument stands uncontested. No counter argument has stood up against it. "
1 spyder.
1 spyder. Not 1 unit. Not spyders.
It even reiterates that in the special rule for the formation.
You are being deliberately ignorant, then claiming that your argument is uncontested, when in fact EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG is contesting it.
Anyway, I'm now going to ignore you, col_impact, and I suggest everyone else does too.
Same to you. Feel free to stand up and put forward a rational, consistent argument that stands up to scrutiny like I have already in this thread and am prepared to do so again. Please do. I love a good challenge.
You don't get to topple my argument with contentless posturing and pretending to have an argument. If you have an actual rational and consistent argument that follows from the rules and that holds up to scrutiny then by all means share it.
Sure people can 'contest' my argument but if they are contesting it with non-rational, inconsistent, and misleading arguments that don't follow the rules then they are not actually contesting it.
So yeah, my RAW argument (that actually follows rationally and consistently from the rules) stands uncontested.
If it was "uncontested" there wouldn't be dozens of people telling you how full of bull you are.
The rule for Adaptive Protocols states "The Spyder". Not "The Unit of Spyders", not "One of the Spyders", not "A Spyder in this formation", but "The Spyder". Which is about as RAW as you're going to get until there's an official FAQ about it.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by screaming about how smart and logical you are while ignoring everyone else. All it does is make you look quite the opposite.
I've never played with it as more than 1 spyder or seen it played with more than 1 spyder. No one want to be TFG at the store and this is the kind of argument that turns you from a nice opponent playing a new dex to TFG that no one wants to play. Codex says spyder, or the spyder never says unit and in the formation rules it says; 1 canoptek spyder, 1 unit of canoptek wraiths, 1 unit of canoptek scarabs. It doesn't make sense for them to change syntax without it meaning something. Furthermore the options in the canoptek spyder page refer to a unit, as declared under unit type, not to a model which is declared in the formation since it specifically doesn't state unit. Thus you would follow the stats for the spyder and all of it's special rules but you don't have access to options that are for the unit such as increasing unit size.
Anyway, I've found that in a decurion the formation is very effective and provides some much needed tarpit and a little hammer for your army. Scarabs with RP are almost guaranteed to take at least 2 assault phases to kill which slows down your opponents dangerous unit. Meanwhile wraiths can eat light tanks, shooting support units, or tarpit assault units very quickly now that they are beasts. The spyder only needs to get off RP for 1 or 2 turns and then it's served it's purpose and can act as counter assault. The best way to run it I've found is to keep the scarabs lean at 3-4 bases(since you can buff it to 4/5 first turn which is enough wounds to make combat) and use cover to hide them as they approach their target. Wraiths I find it easy to go overboard, however 4 works well for me since it's not a huge point sink while they can still afford to lose a member and still be effective in combat, I also favour giving them the beamers as the ap2 shooting helps especially if you plan on tarpitting an assault/elite unit as you can soften it up(or get lucky and instant kill a wraithknight charging you like matt). I also find the wraithwing to be effective with the destroyer cult since you can make use of the tax lord by putting it with wraiths, sure he kinda slows them down but you can break off the turn you want to charge if you feel you'll need the fleet charge distance to make combat.
I'm rather impressed with both side's RAW, and the moment that happens we enter the dark hateful territory of RAI. Listening to the spider debate is about as vitriolic as listening to members of ISIS and members of the Iranian revolutionary guard debate who is following the 1 true form of Islam. Save your passion for YMDC.
schadenfreude wrote: I'm rather impressed with both side's RAW, and the moment that happens we enter the dark hateful territory of RAI. Listening to the spider debate is about as vitriolic as listening to members of ISIS and members of the Iranian revolutionary guard debate who is following the 1 true form of Islam. Save your passion for YMDC.
Well, they have it easier, whoever is still alive at the end is right .
Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.
The way I've been running it is thusly:
Conclave of the Burning One Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105
470 points
For 100 points of upgrades, you gain a Teleport, one turn Invisibility (sorta), 4++/4+++ on both of the Crypteks, and T8 all around. Not bad. Even without any sort of Deep Strike scatter help, the unit is very small and ignores all terrain, so it's easy to place in such a way that mishaps are a relatively low chance.
I think the Conclave is pretty comparable to most Deathstars out there. It has pretty good shooting: 2 Staff of Lights, one with Blind, is pretty solid shooting on it's own. The C'Tan's powers are unreliable, but overall fairly strong. And Gaze is, of course, fairly insanely strong for what it is. In Assault, the Crypteks are a tarpit (T8 and 3/4 chance of ignoring anything that's not Destroyer? enjoy killing that) while the Nightbringer is a proper monster with his high statline and Fleshbane. Even against things like GMCs he can hold his own and take them down. They can't particularly deal with Knights in Assault, but then, what can, other than massed Warscythes and 9+ Wraiths?
The durability is extremely high. If they're in a tight spot, popping the Solar Staff is always an option, but against just a couple squads, they don't even need it. Immunity to S4 (so most small arms fire) and a tough nut to crack even for heavy weapons with their high toughness and good saves.
It's possible to run slightly cheaper if you drop the Phase Shifters and just grab a Chronometron, but it makes the Crypteks relatively easy pickings in Assault (still T8, but only 4+/4+++) and not nearly as durable, saving 2/3 of wounds instead of 3/4 against shooting.
I have had lots of success with it, the only time it died, it took out a bunch of Crisis Suits and ate an entire 1850 Tau list's worth of shooting before it went out.
I find it so strange that a 40k player would make this argument. Every single model on the table is part of a unit, and that unit can consist of a single model. 1 Spyder is 1 unit of Spyders (although not necessarily vice versa). By following your argument to its logical conclusion, we'd have to accept that rules affecting units and not specifically models can't affect the Spyder. Want to cast Paroxysm on it? Nope, you can't, it's 1 Spyder, not a unit of Spyders.
Okapi wrote: 1 Spyder is 1 unit of Spyders (although not necessarily vice versa).
Then explain why in the very same formation they use the terms '1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths' and '1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs'. It is because there is a difference. 1 spyder means just that, 1 spyder and not 1 unit of spyders with 2 or 3 spyders.
Requizen wrote: Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.
The way I've been running it is thusly:
Conclave of the Burning One Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105
470 points
I was thinking similar but turn the solar cryptek into a tanktek by giving him the nightmare shroud and solar thermasite for a rerollable 2+ on a T8 model.
Although might be risky as I assume S8 AP2 has a chance to ID him, because he is still technically T4? Not sure on that one.
I find it so strange that a 40k player would make this argument. Every single model on the table is part of a unit, and that unit can consist of a single model. 1 Spyder is 1 unit of Spyders (although not necessarily vice versa). By following your argument to its logical conclusion, we'd have to accept that rules affecting units and not specifically models can't affect the Spyder. Want to cast Paroxysm on it? Nope, you can't, it's 1 Spyder, not a unit of Spyders.
It's simple english. It even states in the special rules for the formation 'the canoptek spyder from this formation...'
Not the unit. Not the spyders. Spyder single. Not plural.
I find it very strange anyone would argue otherwise. It's VERY clearly a restriction on the unit size in order to take the formation.
I'm willing to concede - should have been clarified in the formation restrictions ('The canoptek spyder unit in this formation can only consist of one canoptek spyder model').
But hey, geedubs, because... reasons.
FAQ will sort it out
The formation is strong as is. If you can take 3 spyders (or even take more outside the formation, to make more scarabs in the unit with RP), it seems waaaaay overpowered.
That conclave kit is EXACTLY how I am going to run mine. I just need do decide what to drop out of the list that I am now very fond of haha. I need 230 points....hmm...
Requizen wrote: Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.
The way I've been running it is thusly:
Conclave of the Burning One Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105
470 points
I was thinking similar but turn the solar cryptek into a tanktek by giving him the nightmare shroud and solar thermasite for a rerollable 2+ on a T8 model.
Although might be risky as I assume S8 AP2 has a chance to ID him, because he is still technically T4? Not sure on that one.
Haven't tried it yet though.
It does have a weakness against S8 or higher guns. As the model is still T4, they can be doubled out. However, since there are 2 Crypteks in the unit, they'll always have a 4+ Reanimate (+1 per Cryptek).
Surviving incoming fire is about positioning and Look Out Sir rolls. Putting the Nightbringer out front protects you from ID weapons, but since he's only a 5+ FNP he's actually got a lesser save than the Crypteks. He does have 4 wounds, though, so you have to weigh out how you're going to split up wounds between all of them. Since it's 2 ICs and 1 Character, you can sort of dance the wounds around fairly easily with Look Out Sir.
luke1705 wrote:That conclave kit is EXACTLY how I am going to run mine. I just need do decide what to drop out of the list that I am now very fond of haha. I need 230 points....hmm...
Yeah, 470 points for 3 models is pretty crazy. Still, for 8 T8 wounds and lots of Invuln and FNP/RP rolls, I think it's fairly worthwhile.
Requizen wrote: Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.
Edit: Callidus'd
Again, why would you infiltrate near the center if you are facing a Knight.
Most of that type of units have 12" movement, so there goes board control.
Quite the opposite. That is exactly what board control means.
You simply put the Flayed Ones in a position that requires the enemy to respond in a certain manner. If they deploy these 12" things then you infiltrate the Flayed Ones to the sides and threaten flanks. You can even be cagey with it and set up 22 Inches away. See if your opponent will try a 10" charge. And even if he does and succeeds, then he has thrown his high value Knight, death star at a trash unit on the far side of the board. Meanwhile you gain flexibility to move without having to deal with that threat on the remainder of the board.
Are we talking about small FO units or the large blob with the Bargelord that col_impact mentioned?
I wouldnt go with less than 10 personally. It provides a cheap enough threat to be expendable but enough to have to be dealt with. While rerolling would be nice, I would trust in the cover/armor and RP to keep the Flayed ones in the fight. A bargelord babysitting them is a waste of another board control unit. Make the enemy respond to multiple threats. If everything is in one spot, then it is much easier to handle.
Okapi wrote: 1 Spyder is 1 unit of Spyders (although not necessarily vice versa).
Then explain why in the very same formation they use the terms '1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths' and '1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs'. It is because there is a difference. 1 spyder means just that, 1 spyder and not 1 unit of spyders with 2 or 3 spyders.
Because it's GW and they make horrible mistakes like this in every single codex they print, and take forever to correct these errors. As a Magic, X-Wing and Warhammer player I've come to expect well written rules from Wizards and FFG, and something of a semicomprehensible mess from GW. In any case, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that the argument "it's a model, not a unit" doesn't hold up, because a Spyder is a unit. I could throw you a line like "then explain why it says "1 unit of Canoptek Spyders" elsewhere in the Codex" or "then explain why the promo material shows the Harvest with multiple Spyders", but unlike you I accept that there is no clear answer to this problem. We simply don't know, and while we wait for a FAQ (which I believe will simply add a line to the restrictions box), the only thing that we know is 100% legal no matter the interpretation is running units of a single Spyder.
It seems reasonably plausible that GW originally intended the unit to be 1-3 strong, as reflected in fluff text and pictures as well as promo material, but changed it sometime during playtesting, probably because the RP bubble got too large and difficult to deal with.
Requizen wrote: Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.
Edit: Callidus'd
Again, why would you infiltrate near the center if you are facing a Knight.
Most of that type of units have 12" movement, so there goes board control.
Quite the opposite. That is exactly what board control means.
You simply put the Flayed Ones in a position that requires the enemy to respond in a certain manner. If they deploy these 12" things then you infiltrate the Flayed Ones to the sides and threaten flanks. You can even be cagey with it and set up 22 Inches away. See if your opponent will try a 10" charge. And even if he does and succeeds, then he has thrown his high value Knight, death star at a trash unit on the far side of the board. Meanwhile you gain flexibility to move without having to deal with that threat on the remainder of the board.
Are we talking about small FO units or the large blob with the Bargelord that col_impact mentioned?
I wouldnt go with less than 10 personally. It provides a cheap enough threat to be expendable but enough to have to be dealt with. While rerolling would be nice, I would trust in the cover/armor and RP to keep the Flayed ones in the fight. A bargelord babysitting them is a waste of another board control unit. Make the enemy respond to multiple threats. If everything is in one spot, then it is much easier to handle.
Somewhere between 10 and 15 seems right to me as well. 20 seems just like a lot of points for an all Assault unit, but less than 10 is a scary place to be since you might just get shot dead before doing anything. 2 units of 10 might be a bit too many points for FOs depending on what you're playing, but it probably is a very good option overall.
Requizen wrote: Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.
The way I've been running it is thusly:
Conclave of the Burning One Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105
470 points
I was thinking similar but turn the solar cryptek into a tanktek by giving him the nightmare shroud and solar thermasite for a rerollable 2+ on a T8 model.
Although might be risky as I assume S8 AP2 has a chance to ID him, because he is still technically T4? Not sure on that one.
Haven't tried it yet though.
Ok so each Cryptek can have 1 relic from Mephrit and 1 relic from the book. So if you have the tanktek then you lose the ability to have people snapshoot at you, and you can't have the shroud anywhere else in your army. It's actually the second point that does it for me. I prefer having a tanking d lord with my wraiths, so I can't have a true tanktek. Seriously though, someone tell me why we can have just 1 non-named character in the entire army with a 2+ save. What are we, Tyranids?
luke1705 wrote:That conclave kit is EXACTLY how I am going to run mine. I just need do decide what to drop out of the list that I am now very fond of haha. I need 230 points....hmm...
Yeah, 470 points for 3 models is pretty crazy. Still, for 8 T8 wounds and lots of Invuln and FNP/RP rolls, I think it's fairly worthwhile.
I don't know what you're talking about....my 3 Flyrants are 720 points
They probably figured that a 2+ on a model that now reanimates every wound was a bit much.
They're probably not wrong. That said, the real thing that killed my enthusiasm for Overlords is that Resurrection Orbs are on Crypteks now, meaning less synergy with any unit they would join. Lychguard, I guess, but Orikan is just plain better for that.
Only time so far I've gotten around to playing an HQ who isn't a Cryptek, a named Cryptek or a Destroyer Lord was for a Deathstar gimmick in one game.
Requizen wrote: Right, all that silliness aside, let's talk about the Conclave of the Burning One.
The way I've been running it is thusly:
Conclave of the Burning One Shard of the Nightbringer - 240
"Shadow" Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, God Shackle) - 125
"Solar" Cryptek (Solar Staff, Phase Shifter) - 105
470 points
I was thinking similar but turn the solar cryptek into a tanktek by giving him the nightmare shroud and solar thermasite for a rerollable 2+ on a T8 model.
Although might be risky as I assume S8 AP2 has a chance to ID him, because he is still technically T4? Not sure on that one.
Haven't tried it yet though.
Ok so each Cryptek can have 1 relic from Mephrit and 1 relic from the book. So if you have the tanktek then you lose the ability to have people snapshoot at you, and you can't have the shroud anywhere else in your army. It's actually the second point that does it for me. I prefer having a tanking d lord with my wraiths, so I can't have a true tanktek. Seriously though, someone tell me why we can have just 1 non-named character in the entire army with a 2+ save. What are we, Tyranids?
luke1705 wrote:That conclave kit is EXACTLY how I am going to run mine. I just need do decide what to drop out of the list that I am now very fond of haha. I need 230 points....hmm...
Yeah, 470 points for 3 models is pretty crazy. Still, for 8 T8 wounds and lots of Invuln and FNP/RP rolls, I think it's fairly worthwhile.
I don't know what you're talking about....my 3 Flyrants are 720 points
I'd gladly put 250 more points in if Nightbringer could swoop around the battlefield raining Gazes from the Sky
I think a lot of people haven't explored much of the new codex - or at least are only willing to theory-craft rather than attempt in practice.
Some thoughts in units that are not wraiths I recently used:
Burning One Formation w/ Nightbringer:
Amazing. Incredible damage output for any situation, particularly with NB's Gaze of Death being able to wound just about anything. Surprisingly durable. Hordes are annoying but you can whittle them down quite a bit at range first.
Anni Nexus:
Decent. I love powerful pie plates - but the unit is unsure of what it wants to do. If you're sniping pie plates at infantry clumps or vehicle parks - the two AB's are just sitting there doing nothing, and if you're in range, your output is *ridiculous*, but you're also uncomfortably close to the action, and you'll quickly lose your shields. Also a HUGE target for deep strikes or pods.
Flayed ones:
INCREDIBLE. Max squads, with Decurion. Put them in range of a Cryptek. They don't die. They kill. Yeah, vehicles can tarpit and knights are a pain but *anything* short just melts. And it feels good, finally giving them a purpose.
Lychguard:
I love scytheguard but sword and board with Orikan has been best so far. A great general purpose unit - and once Orikan MWAHAHA's, they're able to tackle just about anything. Movement is painful but there are ways around that.
Praetorians:
Lots of fun. Triarchs make them better but I find the tripos tend to go down too swiftly. Instead, jumping around the board to snipe-assault support units and glass cannons or the occasional lone monstrous creature is great. I treat them like Bounty Hunters.
IA:12 units are all... bleh.
I REALLY want to see the HQ's updated, because I miss having a ridiculous beat-stick HQ rather than a primarily support HQ.
But I will say... if you have never used a Night Shroud - proxy one. Try it out for yourself.
Night Shrouds are tremendously useful, tough, and even one can easily earn back his points - either from direct damage or because when you tell your opponent about his bombs, he will IMMEDIATELY absorb all incoming fire which means those other tough units we have just got closer, unscathed, to their target.
Does anyone use Lords or Overlords on foot? Using the Reclamation Legion I find myself taking the Command Barge and occasionally Zahndrekh, and with a Combined Arms Detachment Crypteks, Szeras and Orikan seem so much better.
What I like about the Night Shroud and Tesseract Ark is that they're Stormraven and Land Raider equivalent vehicles... That don't waste time on troop transport and just take firepower.
Ferros wrote: I think a lot of people haven't explored much of the new codex - or at least are only willing to theory-craft rather than attempt in practice.
Some thoughts in units that are not wraiths I recently used:
Burning One Formation w/ Nightbringer:
Amazing. Incredible damage output for any situation, particularly with NB's Gaze of Death being able to wound just about anything. Surprisingly durable. Hordes are annoying but you can whittle them down quite a bit at range first.
See above. In the ~5-6 games I've used it so far, it's died twice and both times did a stupid amount of damage and fire soaking before it went down. A fantastic formation/Deathstar.
Anni Nexus:
Decent. I love powerful pie plates - but the unit is unsure of what it wants to do. If you're sniping pie plates at infantry clumps or vehicle parks - the two AB's are just sitting there doing nothing, and if you're in range, your output is *ridiculous*, but you're also uncomfortably close to the action, and you'll quickly lose your shields. Also a HUGE target for deep strikes or pods.
Meh. Expensive and the gimmick (passing QS) is so situational that it's not even funny. I'd only bring it if I really needed to free up some HS slots.
Flayed ones:
INCREDIBLE. Max squads, with Decurion. Put them in range of a Cryptek. They don't die. They kill. Yeah, vehicles can tarpit and knights are a pain but *anything* short just melts. And it feels good, finally giving them a purpose.
Love em. Have trouble with the movement, even with Infiltrate, but I love them
Lychguard:
I love scytheguard but sword and board with Orikan has been best so far. A great general purpose unit - and once Orikan MWAHAHA's, they're able to tackle just about anything. Movement is painful but there are ways around that.
Orikanstar is fantastic but also bad. It's a big expensive deathstar that will soak more damage than you can shake a stick at, but at the same time will never reach anything that doesn't want to be reached. No Infiltrate, no Fleet, 6" move, blah. I love it but outside of a Night Scythe it's just a pain to get anywhere worthwhile. And inside of a Night Scythe it's not doing what it wants to do: soak damage and act as a zone denial unit.
Praetorians:
Lots of fun. Triarchs make them better but I find the tripos tend to go down too swiftly. Instead, jumping around the board to snipe-assault support units and glass cannons or the occasional lone monstrous creature is great. I treat them like Bounty Hunters.
I like Praetorians but never find a situation where I'm like "omg I need these now". If I want lots of AP2 shooting, I have Heavy Destroyers. If I want good, fast assault, I have Wraiths. Praetorians feel like something inbetween Scytheguard and Wraiths and just are kind of awkward. I should try them more, but I can't see myself spending too much on them.
IA:12 units are all... bleh.
I REALLY want to see the HQ's updated, because I miss having a ridiculous beat-stick HQ rather than a primarily support HQ.
But I will say... if you have never used a Night Shroud - proxy one. Try it out for yourself.
Night Shrouds are tremendously useful, tough, and even one can easily earn back his points - either from direct damage or because when you tell your opponent about his bombs, he will IMMEDIATELY absorb all incoming fire which means those other tough units we have just got closer, unscathed, to their target.
I really want a Night Shroud. I try not to bring too many flyers to friendly games, but that sucker is just so cool. More durable, same killy, and nice that you can bomb one target and Tesla another, something I occasionally wish my Doom Scythe could do.
What does everyone think the best CC units are in the Dex (am interested in playing Necrons, but a CAD, so no beautiful Decurion bonus. I think at 1250, which is what I usually play these days, it's just too restrictive on what you have to take).
Frozocrone wrote: Anyhoo tactics. What does everyone think the best CC units are in the Dex (am interested in playing Necrons, but a CAD, so no beautiful Decurion bonus. I think at 1250, which is what I usually play these days, it's just too restrictive on what you have to take).
Nearly every Assault unit in the dex is worth taking now, even without the Decurion bonus. Flayed Ones tear things up, Lychguard are either unkillable or will blend anything (depending on weapon), Wraiths are still Wraiths, and Praetorians are pretty good despite my misgivings of them. C'Tan I wouldn't take outside of the Conclave formation, though. Without the support and T8 they're nothing special.
I suppose it depends on what you want to do with your Assault. Praetorians and Wraiths are fast, Flayed Ones are numerous, and Lychguard are durable. It's hard to say one is better than the other, since all of them have their niche, and are quite good in it. You'll hear Wraiths as the popular answer, but Flayed Ones actually have better damage output against many Toughness levels and Lychguard are more durable (especially when taken with Orikan).
I'm pretty fond of Praetorians right now just because they're way more survivable than previously with being able to get that T5 4+ save that's pretty damn rad. I'm a advocate of using all three in a army because all three Wraiths , Flayed Ones , and Praetorians bring some thing to the army and work well.
I'm not particularly fond of Lychguard because of their reduce movement, I'll take flayed ones ability to infiltrate.
changemod wrote: What I like about the Night Shroud and Tesseract Ark is that they're Stormraven and Land Raider equivalent vehicles... That don't waste time on troop transport and just take firepower.
Sadly the Ark has been severly hurt by the new quantum shielding rule. Can now be glanced by S7, which is far more spamable than S8
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Resonance wrote: Does anyone know how to add the conclave in battlescribe? i cant seem to find it! is a formation on the Decurion?
Add a force type: formation detachment from catalogue Necrons 2015.
Click the add button under the formation heading and choose a conclave. Then under "no category" add relics and warlord traits, and select Mephrit, which will allow you to bring the shackle on crypteks.
What do people think of this (from the last several pages it didn't come up nor did i see it on the front page so I'm assuming it is something either not known about or talked about)
With the new Deathmarks they can come in if you have allied Spacewolves or marines with drop pods that come in turn one since they are considered enemy units, toss in a D.lord with the s7 ap2 flamer and you have a very nasty alpha strike. Add in a cryptek with a veil of darkness then on the next turn you can move them to safty or re-potition them to attack again and help the survival rate of the marks and D.lord.
Resonance wrote: Does anyone know how to add the conclave in battlescribe? i cant seem to find it! is a formation on the Decurion?
Add a force type: formation detachment from catalogue Necrons 2015.
Click the add button under the formation heading and choose a conclave. Then under "no category" add relics and warlord traits, and select Mephrit, which will allow you to bring the shackle on crypteks.
cheers mate, now to create a nice force around it! maybe a CAD or a cheap decurion with a canoptek harvest
Oberron wrote: What do people think of this (from the last several pages it didn't come up nor did i see it on the front page so I'm assuming it is something either not known about or talked about)
With the new Deathmarks they can come in if you have allied Spacewolves or marines with drop pods that come in turn one since they are considered enemy units, toss in a D.lord with the s7 ap2 flamer and you have a very nasty alpha strike. Add in a cryptek with a veil of darkness then on the next turn you can move them to safty or re-potition them to attack again and help the survival rate of the marks and D.lord.
Thoughts?
You only have your wounding on 2's for the first turn (and only against the "enemy unit" IIRC so you really waste their benefits by tying them to your unit as the "enemy". The issue really is their falloff after the first turn. They would be fine if they always wounded on 2's (even if it was just for 1 unit) but as is, it's tough to justify them
Hollismason wrote: A full ten man squad charging a dreadnought will kill it.
Yeah, 10 guys would crush. In fact, 10 guys will take out a Knight in about two rounds without too much trouble (unless the Knight gets a crazy lucky stomp roll).
Hollismason wrote: A full ten man squad charging a dreadnought will kill it.
Yeah, 10 guys would crush. In fact, 10 guys will take out a Knight in about two rounds without too much trouble (unless the Knight gets a crazy lucky stomp roll).
Yeah, now that I think about it, thats 40 attacks on the charge. Pretty silly. On average that should do at least 3-4 Hull points.
Yes, 280 points of Triarch Praetoreans can defeat a Dreadnaught, most of the time, by averaging 20 hits to get 3 hull points in glances.
280 points also buys 19 bases of Scarabs (95 attacks, 31 hits, 5 hull points) or 21 Warriors who can do the same job from 12" away (42 shots, 21 hits, 4 Hull Points).
You should buy Triarch Pratoreans for attacks with MEQ/TEQ killing AP, not "reliable" anti tank.
Necron Anti Tank is all about volume of fire, hoping for 6's. You probably shouldn't try to achieve that volume of fire with the most expensive units in the codex.
adamsouza wrote: Yes, 280 points of Triarch Praetoreans can defeat a Dreadnaught, most of the time, by averaging 20 hits to get 3 hull points in glances.
280 points also buys 19 bases of Scarabs (95 attacks, 31 hits, 5 hull points) or 21 Warriors who can do the same job from 12" away (42 shots, 21 hits, 4 Hull Points).
You should buy Triarch Pratoreans for attacks with MEQ/TEQ killing AP, not "reliable" anti tank.
Necron Anti Tank is all about volume of fire, hoping for 6's. You probably shouldn't try to achieve that volume of fire with the most expensive units in the codex.
Well yeah, I would rely on them to do that. I personally see them as light infantry killers, but I enjoy the fact that they have the versatility to be like "Oh, well, I really need that vehicle dead this turn, these guys can help out".
Voidblade Praetorians don't excel at anything in particular, but there's no unit in the game they can't engage. Lots of attacks, AP4 for light infantry, rending for heavy infantry, entropic strike for vehicles. The trick is to take advantage of this versatility. I've only played them with rods myself, but after facing a couple of Knights and gargantuans I've occasionally wished I took voidblades instead.
Oberron wrote: What do people think of this (from the last several pages it didn't come up nor did i see it on the front page so I'm assuming it is something either not known about or talked about)
With the new Deathmarks they can come in if you have allied Spacewolves or marines with drop pods that come in turn one since they are considered enemy units, toss in a D.lord with the s7 ap2 flamer and you have a very nasty alpha strike. Add in a cryptek with a veil of darkness then on the next turn you can move them to safty or re-potition them to attack again and help the survival rate of the marks and D.lord.
Thoughts?
You only have your wounding on 2's for the first turn (and only against the "enemy unit" IIRC so you really waste their benefits by tying them to your unit as the "enemy". The issue really is their falloff after the first turn. They would be fine if they always wounded on 2's (even if it was just for 1 unit) but as is, it's tough to justify them
Might want to re-read that part "Hunters from Hyperspace: During the player turn in which this unit arrives from Deep Strike Reseve, all shooting attacks made by the Deathmarks in this unit will wound on To Wound rolls of 2+, regardless of the victim's Toughness" The Deathmarks still get the 2's to wound. and with a D.lord Deathmarks get to re-roll 1's for their to-wound pretty much making any hit they make is a wound. Nothing is wasted, and could easily clam a first turn slay the warlord. A tek with VOD gives them +1 to rp, three more shooting attacks at ap3 s5 (which with re-roll to 1's is almost a 2s to wound on t4 or less). And not to much to worry if they get caught in CC on your opponent's turn because they can then VOD away to shoot again as long as the tek lives.
They do fall off after that alpha strike but not so hard that they are useless.
Yep that was my bad I did misread that. They're definitely not bad to use in that way then. Not my personal style but it could definitely work. I think you would want a large squad or more than one squad if you're going to do that. Nothing worse than having a few dudes left in the squad you tried to kill
adamsouza wrote: Yes, 280 points of Triarch Praetoreans can defeat a Dreadnaught, most of the time, by averaging 20 hits to get 3 hull points in glances.
280 points also buys 19 bases of Scarabs (95 attacks, 31 hits, 5 hull points) or 21 Warriors who can do the same job from 12" away (42 shots, 21 hits, 4 Hull Points).
You should buy Triarch Pratoreans for attacks with MEQ/TEQ killing AP, not "reliable" anti tank.
Necron Anti Tank is all about volume of fire, hoping for 6's. You probably shouldn't try to achieve that volume of fire with the most expensive units in the codex.
Huh?
Most expensive unit in the Codex? They aren't even close.
Also, you don't need 280 points of TPs to take out a Dread. 130 will do it just fine. And, Knights are very, very relevant in the current meta, and few Necron's handle them in CC as well as VB/PC TPs.
adamsouza wrote: Yes, 280 points of Triarch Praetoreans can defeat a Dreadnaught, most of the time, by averaging 20 hits to get 3 hull points in glances.
280 points also buys 19 bases of Scarabs (95 attacks, 31 hits, 5 hull points) or 21 Warriors who can do the same job from 12" away (42 shots, 21 hits, 4 Hull Points).
You should buy Triarch Pratoreans for attacks with MEQ/TEQ killing AP, not "reliable" anti tank.
Necron Anti Tank is all about volume of fire, hoping for 6's. You probably shouldn't try to achieve that volume of fire with the most expensive units in the codex.
Huh?
Most expensive unit in the Codex? They aren't even close.
Also, you don't need 280 points of TPs to take out a Dread. 130 will do it just fine. And, Knights are very, very relevant in the current meta, and few Necron's handle them in CC as well as VB/PC TPs.
Knights are actually quite adept at removing Praetorians, even if they charge.
Knight swings first, kills 2 (4 attacks, hits twice, 2+ to kill with no saves)
Praetorians swing next, do 2 Hull Points (32 attacks, 16 hits, 6s to glance is 2.6 HP)
Knight stomps. Each one should cover at least 2. Out of those 6, 5 die (I know it has to be in groups of 2, just for statistic's sake).
3 Praetorians remain. Next turn, he kills two again, the remaining one does statistically no HPs and then get stomped.
They can kill off a wounded Knight but nearly anything in the book can do that.
Stomp is not THAT effective unless you're assuming he rolls 3 for the D3 stomps and 6 for all three stomp results. The PTs will get their saves and RP against stomp if it doesn't roll a 6.
Zimko wrote: Stomp is not THAT effective unless you're assuming he rolls 3 for the D3 stomps and 6 for all three stomp results. The PTs will get their saves and RP against stomp if it doesn't roll a 6.
Huh, would you look at that. I thought it was 3 Strength D hits. People at my store have some explaining to do....
Zimko wrote: Stomp is not THAT effective unless you're assuming he rolls 3 for the D3 stomps and 6 for all three stomp results. The PTs will get their saves and RP against stomp if it doesn't roll a 6.
Huh, would you look at that. I thought it was 3 Strength D hits. People at my store have some explaining to do....
Haha, wow. I bet you're gonna have a lot more fun fighting IKs at your store from now on. 3 Str D attacks on Stomp is nuts.
Zimko wrote: Stomp is not THAT effective unless you're assuming he rolls 3 for the D3 stomps and 6 for all three stomp results. The PTs will get their saves and RP against stomp if it doesn't roll a 6.
Huh, would you look at that. I thought it was 3 Strength D hits. People at my store have some explaining to do....
Haha, wow. I bet you're gonna have a lot more fun fighting IKs at your store from now on. 3 Str D attacks on Stomp is nuts.
Only one guy ever brought one, and I think he just didn't read it closely enough haha.
Though I am now suddenly less worried about Knights at tournaments.
19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board
If you position them right, you can have the 10 extra bases go across no man's land for a turn 1 charge since they removed the restriction requiring new scarabs to be in cohesion with non-spawed scarabs.
Daisy chain them straight into the face of your opponent's midfield for a nice big claw filled hug, then give them 10 extra bases while they are in combat because they removed that restriction as well.
@ Nilok: er what? it is clear that the spawned scarabs must be placed within 6 inches of the spyder that spawned it AND only if there was a pre-existing scarab swarm within 6 inches of the spyder at the beginning of the movement phase.
19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board
If you position them right, you can have the 10 extra bases go across no man's land for a turn 1 charge since they removed the restriction requiring new scarabs to be in cohesion with non-spawed scarabs.
Daisy chain them straight into the face of your opponent's midfield for a nice big claw filled hug, then give them 10 extra bases while they are in combat because they removed that restriction as well.
@ Nilok: er what? it is clear that the spawned scarabs must be placed within 6 inches of the spyder that spawned it AND only if there was a pre-existing scarab swarm within 6 inches of the spyder at the beginning of the movement phase.
You're actually allowed to spawn the bases any time during your movement phase, before or after your spyder(s) move.
It's covered somewhere earlier in this very thread. WIth a half dozen spyders you can chain the scarabs most of the way across no mans land in the first turn. It's a gimmic. Most of the scarabs won't be able to reach, but it could be fun to see the look on an opponents face, or to claim a mid field objective
It really is just a gimmick. It's kinda hilarious and they might tarpit things up forever, but against a competent opponent it's more or less a speedbump. Multiwound T3 models don't really last that long if someone doesn't want them to, regardless of Fearless and RP. Or, they'll spend the entire game in a slapfight with Termagants.
It's not actually that huge of a gimmick when you consider that you can have them charge a vehicle or something like that for first blood possibly.
Also, it's really hard to maneuver away from the first turn charge as their movement can put them right at the 12" edge of your opponents deployment zone.
The change to Entropic Strike is pretty trivial really, but the big issue is the price change.
At 15 points, getting instant deathed isn't a huge deal. It's the same loss as having a one wound T4 model getting hit by a weapon that ignores it's save. Half the time I wanted people to be killing my Scarabs because they were low value and passably good at taking a lot of fire to fully down so long as no Thunderfire Cannons were involved.
At 20 points though, they're a much larger investment. I would no longer consider them worth taking outside of a farm, where getting a lot of them for free offsets the starting cost.
At first I was a little upset over the 25% points increase and the entropic nerf on scarabs, but in the end I was happier that they increased the cost of scarabs and not the Spyders. The scarabsa re toned down from last edition, but at least now they can affect Imperial Knights, and other super heavies, so I think it balances out overall.
19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board
If you position them right, you can have the 10 extra bases go across no man's land for a turn 1 charge since they removed the restriction requiring new scarabs to be in cohesion with non-spawed scarabs.
Daisy chain them straight into the face of your opponent's midfield for a nice big claw filled hug, then give them 10 extra bases while they are in combat because they removed that restriction as well.
@ Nilok: er what? it is clear that the spawned scarabs must be placed within 6 inches of the spyder that spawned it AND only if there was a pre-existing scarab swarm within 6 inches of the spyder at the beginning of the movement phase.
You're actually allowed to spawn the bases any time during your movement phase, before or after your spyder(s) move.
adamsouza wrote:It's covered somewhere earlier in this very thread. WIth a half dozen spyders you can chain the scarabs most of the way across no mans land in the first turn. It's a gimmic. Most of the scarabs won't be able to reach, but it could be fun to see the look on an opponents face, or to claim a mid field objective
I thought i read the whole chain but maybe i gleaned over what you guys are talking about. Is there a way someone could link me right to the discussion?
Re. the viability of scarabs... I have played two games, one of which was against the hardest hitting hammer unit I have ever heard of. Even after a flawed game play on my part, Scarab Farm Crons still came out victorious. Scarabs kill armor and tie up dedicated CC. They are impenetrable when you have 35+ bases by mid-game regardless of RP. The trick is making sure you tie up the unit that can target the spyders. I use wraiths to do this. The combo is solid. The army takes patience, and is not an easy win button, but is hard as nails.
Start Spyders and Scarabs near edge of deployment zone Move 3 Spyders Up 6, spawn scarabs diaganolly ,to maintain squad coherence, 2" further into the depolyment zone each.
Move second swuad of spyders up, spawn scarabs 2" deeper each time, passing the Spyders. You now have Scarabs 12" across the 24" gap. Move the Squad 12" forward, and the lead scarab should be on the edge of the enemy deployment zone, turn 1, ready to charge.
If the enemy is on the edge of his deployment zone, you should be able to get a few bases of scarabs into assault.
I suggest running up the Spyders, so turn 2 they can move 6" forward and spawn more scarabs closer to the assault.
To be honest, I've never tried it. It's just something fun that is technically possible to pull off.
I'm not even certain how you move the rest of the scarabs up, once the first few are in assualt. Do they move 12" or are they restircted to using 3" follow up moves ?
adamsouza wrote: Start Spyders and Scarabs near edge of deployment zone Move 3 Spyders Up 6, spawn scarabs diaganolly ,to maintain squad coherence, 2" further into the depolyment zone each.
Move second swuad of spyders up, spawn scarabs 2" deeper each time, passing the Spyders. You now have Scarabs 12" across the 24" gap. Move the Squad 12" forward, and the lead scarab should be on the edge of the enemy deployment zone, turn 1, ready to charge.
If the enemy is on the edge of his deployment zone, you should be able to get a few bases of scarabs into assault.
I suggest running up the Spyders, so turn 2 they can move 6" forward and spawn more scarabs closer to the assault.
To be honest, I've never tried it. It's just something fun that is technically possible to pull off.
I'm not even certain how you move the rest of the scarabs up, once the first few are in assualt. Do they move 12" or are they restircted to using 3" follow up moves ?
If it's the same unit, it's just consolidation. Which means that funny 12" daisy chain across the battlefield is only going to get a couple bases even in combat.
adamsouza wrote: Start Spyders and Scarabs near edge of deployment zone Move 3 Spyders Up 6, spawn scarabs diaganolly ,to maintain squad coherence, 2" further into the depolyment zone each. Move second swuad of spyders up, spawn scarabs 2" deeper each time, passing the Spyders. You now have Scarabs 12" across the 24" gap. Move the Squad 12" forward, and the lead scarab should be on the edge of the enemy deployment zone, turn 1, ready to charge.
If the enemy is on the edge of his deployment zone, you should be able to get a few bases of scarabs into assault.
I suggest running up the Spyders, so turn 2 they can move 6" forward and spawn more scarabs closer to the assault.
To be honest, I've never tried it. It's just something fun that is technically possible to pull off.
I'm not even certain how you move the rest of the scarabs up, once the first few are in assualt. Do they move 12" or are they restircted to using 3" follow up moves ?
But it wont matter because the unit will still be locked; and the next turn you get another batch of scarabs...
If it's the same unit, it's just consolidation. Which means that funny 12" daisy chain across the battlefield is only going to get a couple bases even in combat.
It's closer than you think. First off the back models move the full amount of what you rolled for assault. So say you do get a charge off with 5 bases , great.
The other bases are still moving 12" plus the Charge move Plus 3" so you're not going to be that far away to get into combat.
Oh and the Spyders are going to add more and more.
Spyders really are just amazingly under costed for what they do. Even if you only spawn twice over the course of the game, you created 40 points of rippers. On a 50 point model.
I think that triple Canoptek harvest really builds itself. Or maybe just one Canoptek harvest inside a Spyder farm CAD. That being said, I too am theory-crafting as I'm still running old school wraithwing for the time being. Trying to make small tweaks in my list and seeing what I can do with it.
luke1705 wrote: Spyders really are just amazingly under costed for what they do. Even if you only spawn twice over the course of the game, you created 40 points of rippers. On a 50 point model.
I think that triple Canoptek harvest really builds itself. Or maybe just one Canoptek harvest inside a Spyder farm CAD. That being said, I too am theory-crafting as I'm still running old school wraithwing for the time being. Trying to make small tweaks in my list and seeing what I can do with it.
I run the single harvest in a Spyder farm CAD... and it's a beast. My local group calls is a 'moving anvil'. However I have only played against marines so far. I am a little worried about Eldar/DE. I will report once I get that match-up in.
I'm super fond of the 3 Canoptek Harvest MSU list. It's been excellent every time. It's the perfect number of Wraiths, their survivable. The Scarabs are super great as well and you avoid the negative of losing the wound 50% of the time.
I just gotta figure out a better Reclamation legion to go with them. I just take Tomb Blades right now as many as I can fit. I'm considering going with a Overlord w/ Veil and Lychguard though.
I think I'm coming around to the Decurion... I keep decrying the Troops tax, but honestly I think it's fine. My only standing issue is with the Tomb Blades... seeing as I still only have 3 and can't buy any online or in a store, I'll have to run them as minimum for the time being. But even then, they're extremely mobile and durable with 3+/Jink/4+++.
As my love of Necrons is mostly focused on how awesome Destroyer are, giving them the 4+ RP is my main goal of using the Decurion. Plus, it makes my Infiltrating Flayed Ones that much more durable. If I didn't want to take so much stuff other than the Reclamation Legion (Cult, Flayed Ones, Conclave), I wouldn't have so much issue running it!
Well I mean let me put it this way: I have been one of the most staunch advocates of Obsec > +1 RP, and I do stand by it still. That being said, Sean Nayden won the LVO with a grand total of one obsec unit in his army - a single deep-striking ripper squad. He completely owned all of the objectives for pretty much the entirety of game turns 2-5 and was able to effectively Flyrant/Mawloc/Lictor you off of the objectives. Very much quantity over quality and with the reserves manipulation, it did a spectacular job.
So if you are able to do something like this, then maybe obsec isn't the be all end all. But I would say, "don't just think you can get rid of obsec and win vs obsec because one guy did it. It took an experienced general and an exceptional list that relied on points efficiency denial"
Tyran wrote: 5TP is 20 attacks, 10 hits and 1.6 hull points.
It would be even less as the Dread is going to kill 1 or 2 guys before the TP get to swing, so I don't see odds in the TP's favor.
The Dread might kill 2, 3 at the most, and the TPs will ultimately win the combat.
Your assumptions don't match the reality.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if the TPs are coming from the formation and the Dread is marked, it's even more lopsided.
4 Dread CC attacks kill .83 [4(1÷2)(5÷6)(1÷2)] to 1.11 [ 4(1÷2)(5÷6)(2÷3) ] TPs/turn, depending on what RP the TPs are getting. He needs to kill 5.
The TPs can easily take off 2 HPs on the charge
(.56 from Pistols, 1.33 from CC, assuming Dread kills one). So. Statistically speaking, the Dread should have about 1 HP to go, and the TPs should be 4 strong, at the end of one round.
Obviously, those numbers double if they are in the formation and the Dread is marked. In other words, he dies in one round.
Also, this ignores the fact the TPs will likely have Pens, due to rending, which will further limit the Dreads ability.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Oh yeah, Dread attacks are S10, not 8, so they will nerf RP down. Wasn't thinking about that.
Still, ultimately, even outside of the formation, and only getting 6+ RP, I think the odds favor the TPs slightly.
There is also another reality. If using the formation, it's easy for the Praetorians to jump behind to rear armor, and reroll armor pen rolls before charging in. So, there's that.
It takes 18 hits with s4 gauss to drop 3 MEQ or a dread. Charging a model that has 2 or 3 attacks with an expensive unit of 10 TP when it can be dakkad down as easy as 3 MEQ is wasting the time of 10 TP.
The only walkers necrons should be sweating is multiple soul grinders. They are ugly with MOT and cursed earth. Fortunately initiative 4 knights with d weapons kick the viability right out of that list.
Agreed. Even though Wraiths and voidblade Praetorians hit hard, they should rarely charge an intact walker and definitely never PLAN to do so. They're more of a mop up crew than an alpha strike. Strip off a hull point or two with gauss flayers first, then get stuck in and take off the last one or two points. Warriors, Immortals, Wraiths, Scarabs, Spyders, voidblade Praetorians, shield Lychguard and even Tomb Blades are all durable generalists, and need to work in concert with the rest of the force. There's no reason for them to go at it solo unless you have no other choice.
That's not to say there aren't specialists, but they are less common in Necron lists If you really need to hit vehicles hard and fast, try a Doom Scythe or maybe a Doomsday Ark. If you want to go head to head with elite infantry without support, try rod Praetorians. Svarms of light infantry ruining your day? Beamer Tomb Blades.
The overlord costs exactly the same as Zahndrekh, who I've been using up to now, but I think warscythe and veil might be better than zealot and 2+ save. Zahndrekh of course does all sorts of other stuff, but in this list the rest isn't so obviously useful, and while he's default warlord trait is perfect for lychguard, not being much of a fighter himself is a bit problematic in that unit.
Tyran wrote: 5TP is 20 attacks, 10 hits and 1.6 hull points.
It would be even less as the Dread is going to kill 1 or 2 guys before the TP get to swing, so I don't see odds in the TP's favor.
The Dread might kill 2, 3 at the most, and the TPs will ultimately win the combat.
Your assumptions don't match the reality.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if the TPs are coming from the formation and the Dread is marked, it's even more lopsided.
4 Dread CC attacks kill .83 [4(1÷2)(5÷6)(1÷2)] to 1.11 [ 4(1÷2)(5÷6)(2÷3) ] TPs/turn, depending on what RP the TPs are getting. He needs to kill 5.
The TPs can easily take off 2 HPs on the charge
(.56 from Pistols, 1.33 from CC, assuming Dread kills one). So. Statistically speaking, the Dread should have about 1 HP to go, and the TPs should be 4 strong, at the end of one round.
Obviously, those numbers double if they are in the formation and the Dread is marked. In other words, he dies in one round.
Also, this ignores the fact the TPs will likely have Pens, due to rending, which will further limit the Dreads ability.
One error, the RP is either 5+ or 6+ because ID. Although I forgot to count the pistols' shooting.
The overlord costs exactly the same as Zahndrekh, who I've been using up to now, but I think warscythe and veil might be better than zealot and 2+ save. Zahndrekh of course does all sorts of other stuff, but in this list the rest isn't so obviously useful, and while he's default warlord trait is perfect for lychguard, not being much of a fighter himself is a bit problematic in that unit.
This is a interesting list I do like it though a lot.
Agreed. Even though Wraiths and voidblade Praetorians hit hard, they should rarely charge an intact walker and definitely never PLAN to do so. They're more of a mop up crew than an alpha strike. Strip off a hull point or two with gauss flayers first, then get stuck in and take off the last one or two points. Warriors, Immortals, Wraiths, Scarabs, Spyders, voidblade Praetorians, shield Lychguard and even Tomb Blades are all durable generalists, and need to work in concert with the rest of the force. There's no reason for them to go at it solo unless you have no other choice.
There are some reasons, most walkers we can glance down, but if god forbid, you meet ad-lance. I've math-hammered it out , and VB praets are the best bet. it takes upwards of 170 gauss shots to bring down a lance knight, which is more dakka than most people can afford to use on it. If you bring that many warriors, they are all goinf to get stomped and swept by the other 2. 2 squads of VB praets will comfortably remove a knight, before stomps, and if they dont, fearless + armor3+ should make it so that you arent immediately rekt.
Dreadnaughts? yeah gauss all the way, 4++ re-rollable from shooting, VB praets all day every day.
Sorry, adamantium lance. 3 imperial knights, when within 3" of eachother re-roll their invulns. It can be a pain to deal with. Not super common, but if you play competitively you could see it pop up.
Ah, I see. True, seems sensible to assault that (although flanking gauss Tomb Blades might help as well). Just need to decide whether to get Wraiths (expensive, but invul helps against battlecannon and chainsaw, can hit first if upgraded), Praetorians (same offensive potential for less points) or Scarabs (cheaper, higher offensive potential, much more vulnerable).
What do you people do about your scarabs losing combat, then failing leadership and being wiped out completely due to poor initiative? This has happened to me twice.
xghostmakerx wrote: What do you people do about your scarabs losing combat, then failing leadership and being wiped out completely due to poor initiative? This has happened to me twice.
Realize that they're Fearless and they don't make morale tests?
What do you people do about your scarabs losing combat, then failing leadership and being wiped out completely due to poor initiative? This has happened to me twice.
Mate, all canopteks are fearless, Wraiths/scarabs/spyders. They're service robots, the wraith heavy weapon is a vacuum cleaner. they don't know what fear is.
Conclave of the Burning One Nightbringer
Cryptek (God Shackle, Phase Shifter, Veil of Darkness)
Cryptek (Phase Shifter, Staff of Light
1844
Possible changes include:
-Dropping 3 Flayed Ones to give the Lord a Phase Shifter and Gauntlet of the Conflagrator. Would make him a lot more scary to drop on a target, and harder to remove once he got there. Though it doesn't really matter as much, as the DLord will probably be the Warlord.
-Changing the DLord's Voidreaper to a regular Warscythe for another Flayed One, splitting the FOs into 2 units of 7. This grants another Infiltrator unit and more map presence, but each are more easy to kill.
-Dropping the Lord and cutting the Flayed Ones to 7, using a CCB with a Warscythe as the HQ. Gives another good durable fire magnet target, and another unit on the map that can move really fast, hold objectives, and/or kill certain units. Unfortunately makes the Flayed Ones much weaker.
Firstly, i'm not familiar with adepticon, but i know that a lot of tournies limit you to 2 detatchments, so you mightn't be able to run CAD+formation+formation.
Other than that. With that many Destroyers, you don't want anyone getting up your field, would you consider dropping voidreaper for the solar staff +1 flayed one? It allows you to drop in from reserves in their face, with an immediate threat.
D-lord + flayed ones DS in, pop the staff at the start of their turn. you're only real weakness would be a walker, which shouldn't be popping up too often. Anything else you can drown in saves.
The C'tan is already T8 with effectively 8 wounds and FNP/RP so it wouldn't be much of a loss on him.
Finally, the only thing i notice, but again i don't know the tourney, Is your vulnerability to knights. 1 shouldn't be an issue, but it would take a lot of fire power, 2 would be worse, and an ad-lance would walk all over you.
Dreadknights could also be an issue, but, H-destroyers should remove them easily enough.
Adepticon allows as many Detachments as you like, but each one (including CAD and Allied) is Unique 0-1. So you can have lots of detachments, but can't spam one OP one.
I have reservations about deep striking Flayed Ones (without Imotekh, at least). Especially if I'm going to put an expensive Character in there, scattering a big unit like that is scary. Deep Striking the Conclave is easier, as 3 models with fairly small bases are extremely hard to mishap. Flayed Ones are set to Infiltrate/Outflank.
I don't fear Knights too badly. 6 Destroyers and 6 Heavy Destroyers with Tank Hunter as well as Night Scythes and the Gauss Immortals within can easily strip one of Hull Points and get around to multiple facings to limit the amount of Invuln saves. AdLance scares me, but I think I have enough map presence and mobility that I could play the objectives around them.
Dreadknights don't scare me in the least. Heavy Destroyers will shoot them dead, the Conclave will murder them (might even do so with lucky Power rolls and Gaze), and even Flayed Ones can bog it down and put some wounds on.
I'm most worried about Knights and other Superheavies (like the dreaded Lynx), but I think it can be dealt with.
Yeah, i think your list is well rounded, but someone speecing right into a niche will walk all over you, same with most lists. 300 ork boyz beat anything without enough large blasts. Ad-lance are the same deal, you need to build to beat them and only them really.
As long as you know your plan though. any plans for dealing with draigo/tiggy/invis/centstar? could remove your C'tan (4+/4++) or heavy destroyers instantly.
harkequin wrote: I thought so too, then i checked the chart, Ws2 - Ws4, is like the only exception to it xD. And i did check, WS2 vs WS4 is 5's to hit.
Daaamn. I never noticed it before, the tables on digital and print rulebooks are different! On the print version (both assault rules on page 49 and reference section in the back) has the good old table that follows the same logic all the way through (so 4+ until against more than double WS), but the digital version really does have that strange anomaly on 2 vs 4.
harkequin wrote: Yeah, i think your list is well rounded, but someone speecing right into a niche will walk all over you, same with most lists. 300 ork boyz beat anything without enough large blasts. Ad-lance are the same deal, you need to build to beat them and only them really.
As long as you know your plan though. any plans for dealing with draigo/tiggy/invis/centstar? could remove your C'tan (4+/4++) or heavy destroyers instantly.
Well the shooting from them I don't really fear. Destroyers will always be in cover (Move Through Cover from the formation + Jet thrust moves) means that I can get into cover or if they get off Ignores Cover, I can throw them behind LOS blockers hopefully.
The Conclave is there to help deal with Deathstars like Centstar. Gaze of Death doesn't care about Invisibility, and hopefully I can just spread out the rest to overload targets. Centstar is annoying, but I think as long as Vortex doesn't straight up remove any of my power units I should be fine. But yeah that's a big if.
I take back everything I said about Scarab Dash being a gimmick. Dug out my models and ran a few simulations, with 6 Spyders, starting on the deployment zone edge. You can reliably spawn scarabs up to 12" into the center of the battlefield in the first movement phase without even moving the scarabs. Their 12" movement carries a few of them them all them way to the enemies deployment zone edge, within charge range.
If you go first, a first turn charge could be invaluable tool to monkey wrench enemy forces.
I tried it with 6 Spyders, but I believe you could still accomplish it with a minimum of 4 Spyders.
harkequin wrote: I thought so too, then i checked the chart, Ws2 - Ws4, is like the only exception to it xD. And i did check, WS2 vs WS4 is 5's to hit.
Daaamn. I never noticed it before, the tables on digital and print rulebooks are different! On the print version (both assault rules on page 49 and reference section in the back) has the good old table that follows the same logic all the way through (so 4+ until against more than double WS), but the digital version really does have that strange anomaly on 2 vs 4.
I dont know if I would get to used to the scarab idea.
There's nothing wrong with it; it is perfectly legal... but if history has taught us anything in this game, anytime an army found a legal way for the first player to get off a first turn charge, it was immediately faq'ed out.
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