Is picking an official successor chapter a net disadvantage compared to just playing the founding chapter instead? It seems you need to spend 1CP only to get access to the proper chapter relics.
Is picking an official successor chapter a net disadvantage compared to just playing the founding chapter instead? It seems you need to spend 1CP only to get access to the proper chapter relics.
Depends on what successor tactics you pick. If you build for the right tactics, it's a bonus-if not, it ain't worth it.
Is picking an official successor chapter a net disadvantage compared to just playing the founding chapter instead? It seems you need to spend 1CP only to get access to the proper chapter relics.
Depends on what successor tactics you pick. If you build for the right tactics, it's a bonus-if not, it ain't worth it.
Oh, so you are not restricted to picking the Inheritors of the Primarch tactic?
For Raven Guard vs Super-Heavies, look at melee. Assault Centurions, Vanguard Veterans with Thunder Hammers, Terminators, Smash characters, etc. If the super-heavy is a character, even better. Your Eliminators will likely be wounding it on a 3+ once you get to the Tactical Doctrine.
I'm also looking at using Aggressors with a Chaplain giving +1 to wound to just sand-blast things away. Positioning will be important here.
Raven Guard should get to decide when they attack, which can limit how much counter-fire you take.
Is picking an official successor chapter a net disadvantage compared to just playing the founding chapter instead? It seems you need to spend 1CP only to get access to the proper chapter relics.
Depends on what successor tactics you pick. If you build for the right tactics, it's a bonus-if not, it ain't worth it.
Oh, so you are not restricted to picking the Inheritors of the Primarch tactic?
You can't really be forced into it as we have tons of rules for successor Characters from FW but no errata. For now, my Raptors with Lias are Stealthy + Marksman (which makes more sense).
The book does seem to imply you're supposed to for known successors, but that is so stupid as it's a handicap vs anyone who ran a custom paint scheme. The one and only nonfluff reason to run Inheritors of the Primarch is if you want the first founding trait, but want to use a FW named character instead of the base chapter named characters. (Ex run Lias, but keep the RG -1 at 12" in terrain). If you don't want the FW name+primary trait combo then you might as well either run it as the first founding anf get access to everything or use the pick 2 custom traits.
And on the RGAT thing, man, that's what I've been going around in circles on since I finally got the book. I hate relying on slow expensive melee or deep striking expensive melee to remove tanks, but they just have 0 bonuses to ranged AT. Best I could think for ranged is use their 1cp deepstrike (or Lias) to drop 4 grav devs and pop the strat, which while strong, is still weaker than IH or UM doing it due to the movement penalty.
That's why for my current list idea I'm thinking trying Aggressors. Range and no UM easy double shooting is a serious disadvantage (I'd probably go Cents if I didn't have a bunch of Aggressors and no Cents), but they actually do pretty decent anti vehicle shooting if you can get a double shot, are scary in melee, and vs the Ironstone they aren't losing anything like a quad las dread would.
Looking for advice on kitting out my eliminators.
I'm building a 2k list, mostly vanguard marines - going for a stealth theme.
All my HS choices are eliminators.
Got one squad all bolt sniper rifles already.
How should I equip the other two squads? I was thinking las fusils as they will be my main anti tank - but I can't decide whether to give the sergeants carbines or another las fusil. I was set on the carbines, but then I realised that master artisans really helps out if your not going for guided aim.
Anyone tried the carbines with las fusils?
For Raven Guard anti-tank, a unit of 8 Vanguard Veterans with jump packs and 4x Thunder Hammers are about 210 points. That's 16 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge. Shrike let's you reroll all misses, and reroll charge rolls as well. Pay one CP to Infiltrate them first turn for 12+d6 inches pre-game, then you can do the same again in your actual movement turn 1. Maybe throw in a chaplain for +2 charge distance. I'll have a chaplain with the Master of Ambush shepherding a group of Assault Centurions so he's already right in front of the enemy line. Then you hit him with those fast-moving units and use your 6 inch pile in and consolidate moves to wrap something. Repeat next turn.
Have you tried with and without doctrines ? Do you think they are really important / helpful ? I wanna try a Callidus assassin next week so I am hesitating !
Is there any unit that have you personal preference / love (not necessarily a good unit) and why ? Did you notice any bad / average unit becoming good ? I couldn't play when bolter discipline came into existence but it really helps basic tac squad firepower for example !
godardc wrote: Have you tried with and without doctrines ? Do you think they are really important / helpful ? I wanna try a Callidus assassin next week so I am hesitating !
Is there any unit that have you personal preference / love (not necessarily a good unit) and why ? Did you notice any bad / average unit becoming good ? I couldn't play when bolter discipline came into existence but it really helps basic tac squad firepower for example !
In my experience, it depends on your army, but generally Doctrines are a massive boon.
Consider that +1 AP can be abstracted into a 16% damage boost against ideal targets. An army built to work in a certain doctrine can easily get more than half of its firepower ever turn working in a single doctrine.
Then, add in your unique chapter buff, which can often be massive. +1 Damage in melee, getting mobility and rerolls for Iron Hands, all sorts of that good stuff.
It easily works out to a 10-20% increase in your army's dps and flexibility by the time it's all said and done. A single assassin simply can't compete with that much utility, and even the Loyal 32 has trouble competing when you can take 17 cheap marines and get similar CPs for about 100 more points while keeping doctrines.
godardc wrote: Have you tried with and without doctrines ? Do you think they are really important / helpful ? I wanna try a Callidus assassin next week so I am hesitating !
Is there any unit that have you personal preference / love (not necessarily a good unit) and why ? Did you notice any bad / average unit becoming good ? I couldn't play when bolter discipline came into existence but it really helps basic tac squad firepower for example !
In my experience, it depends on your army, but generally Doctrines are a massive boon.
Consider that +1 AP can be abstracted into a 16% damage boost against ideal targets. An army built to work in a certain doctrine can easily get more than half of its firepower ever turn working in a single doctrine.
Then, add in your unique chapter buff, which can often be massive. +1 Damage in melee, getting mobility and rerolls for Iron Hands, all sorts of that good stuff.
It easily works out to a 10-20% increase in your army's dps and flexibility by the time it's all said and done. A single assassin simply can't compete with that much utility, and even the Loyal 32 has trouble competing when you can take 17 cheap marines and get similar CPs for about 100 more points while keeping doctrines.
Ideal AP is not a 16% increase. It's a 100% increase.
Going from saving on 2s to on 3s doubles your damage dealt.
godardc wrote: Have you tried with and without doctrines ? Do you think they are really important / helpful ? I wanna try a Callidus assassin next week so I am hesitating !
Is there any unit that have you personal preference / love (not necessarily a good unit) and why ? Did you notice any bad / average unit becoming good ? I couldn't play when bolter discipline came into existence but it really helps basic tac squad firepower for example !
In my experience, it depends on your army, but generally Doctrines are a massive boon.
Consider that +1 AP can be abstracted into a 16% damage boost against ideal targets. An army built to work in a certain doctrine can easily get more than half of its firepower ever turn working in a single doctrine.
Then, add in your unique chapter buff, which can often be massive. +1 Damage in melee, getting mobility and rerolls for Iron Hands, all sorts of that good stuff.
It easily works out to a 10-20% increase in your army's dps and flexibility by the time it's all said and done. A single assassin simply can't compete with that much utility, and even the Loyal 32 has trouble competing when you can take 17 cheap marines and get similar CPs for about 100 more points while keeping doctrines.
Ideal AP is not a 16% increase. It's a 100% increase.
Going from saving on 2s to on 3s doubles your damage dealt.
That depends on how you count the numbers.
A 2+ save is a 16.6666% chance of failure.
A 3+ save is a 33.3333% chance of failure.
That's a chance of failure that's 16.6666% higher.
godardc wrote: Have you tried with and without doctrines ? Do you think they are really important / helpful ? I wanna try a Callidus assassin next week so I am hesitating !
Is there any unit that have you personal preference / love (not necessarily a good unit) and why ? Did you notice any bad / average unit becoming good ? I couldn't play when bolter discipline came into existence but it really helps basic tac squad firepower for example !
In my experience, it depends on your army, but generally Doctrines are a massive boon.
Consider that +1 AP can be abstracted into a 16% damage boost against ideal targets. An army built to work in a certain doctrine can easily get more than half of its firepower ever turn working in a single doctrine.
Then, add in your unique chapter buff, which can often be massive. +1 Damage in melee, getting mobility and rerolls for Iron Hands, all sorts of that good stuff.
It easily works out to a 10-20% increase in your army's dps and flexibility by the time it's all said and done. A single assassin simply can't compete with that much utility, and even the Loyal 32 has trouble competing when you can take 17 cheap marines and get similar CPs for about 100 more points while keeping doctrines.
Ideal AP is not a 16% increase. It's a 100% increase.
Going from saving on 2s to on 3s doubles your damage dealt.
That depends on how you count the numbers.
A 2+ save is a 16.6666% chance of failure.
A 3+ save is a 33.3333% chance of failure.
That's a chance of failure that's 16.6666% higher.
Technically accurate, but not very helpful.
If you shoot an AP0 Bolter and wound Terminators 12 times, you kill 1 Terminator.
If you shoot an AP-1 Bolter and wound Terminators 12 times, you kill 2.
footfoe wrote: I'm running 3 predators still. Didn't expect them to get rid of killshot, and I just got them painted as ultramarines.
I'm liking having some high toughness models. But I feel I can get something better for my points. What do you suggest?
Strictly speaking, Contemptor Mortis dreadnoughts are flatly better than Lascannon Predators. For 7 fewer points, you get higher BS, equivalent durability (losing 1 wound but gaining a 5+ invuln, as well as all the durability benefits that come with being a Dreadnought and having lots of stratagems at your disposal that other vehicles can't access. You also have the option to pay more points and add a missile launcher, maximizing damage output over the predator's possible cap damage.
Relic Contemptors are similar, except that you spend 15pts more and get huge durability buffs - 2+ armor, an extra wound, the 5+ invuln, and 6+ FNP. (That last one doesn't help if you're iron hands, but is still nice to have for other factions.)
Finland got first taste of iron hands in competive tournament. 3 iron hand players out of 24 players, all in top 4. Only ultramarines in 2nd place stopped clean sweep.
tneva82 wrote: Finland got first taste of iron hands in competive tournament. 3 iron hand players out of 24 players, all in top 4. Only ultramarines in 2nd place stopped clean sweep.
I'm surprised to see how many Thunderfire cannons got taken. Does anyone know the logic behind that? I don't see the math in bringing three, since you mostly only need one for the stratagem, but every player in the top 4 had maxed out their 4.
EDIT: Does anyone know what the tournament rules were for this event?
Can"t help there. Wasn't there, don't know the people(been crushed by some before i'm sure) so don't talk with them.
Leviathan thing might be due to model issue. Did anybody have model in hand? Takes couple weeks to get one from fw plus assembly and painting(tournaments here have painted requirements and generally people have good paint job. Mine are below average).
tneva82 wrote: Finland got first taste of iron hands in competive tournament. 3 iron hand players out of 24 players, all in top 4. Only ultramarines in 2nd place stopped clean sweep.
And only 1 Executioner and 0 Leviathans in there. So many Thunderfires and Hunters...I guess I'm just oblivious on the Hunter thing. I certainly don't think it's bad, I mean I had a post near the end of the old marine thread on how the Hunter/Stalker stood out as an underappreciated cheap T8 body with a passable gun and I was amazed that I could not find turret subs on either 3d printing sites or less reputable vendors as no one cared enough to clone the things back then. But, just seems like the new dex has so many other options beyond paying 75pts for a rerolling lascannon that I'm amazed everyone took 3.
tneva82 wrote: Finland got first taste of iron hands in competive tournament. 3 iron hand players out of 24 players, all in top 4. Only ultramarines in 2nd place stopped clean sweep.
I'm surprised to see how many Thunderfire cannons got taken. Does anyone know the logic behind that? I don't see the math in bringing three, since you mostly only need one for the stratagem, but every player in the top 4 had maxed out their 4.
EDIT: Does anyone know what the tournament rules were for this event?
Not only 3 Thunderfires, then Whirlwinds on top of that.
tneva82 wrote: Finland got first taste of iron hands in competive tournament. 3 iron hand players out of 24 players, all in top 4. Only ultramarines in 2nd place stopped clean sweep.
And only 1 Executioner and 0 Leviathans in there. So many Thunderfires and Hunters...I guess I'm just oblivious on the Hunter thing. I certainly don't think it's bad, I mean I had a post near the end of the old marine thread on how the Hunter/Stalker stood out as an underappreciated cheap T8 body with a passable gun and I was amazed that I could not find turret subs on either 3d printing sites or less reputable vendors as no one cared enough to clone the things back then. But, just seems like the new dex has so many other options beyond paying 75pts for a rerolling lascannon that I'm amazed everyone took 3.
Not only 3 Thunderfires, then Whirlwinds on top of that.
Looking at the other lists, it looks like a flyer-heavy meta. It's possible that the Hunters are just there because they're cheap, provide decent firepower, and help out with AA-type support.
bort wrote: If you expect it to always fire at flyers, then why wouldn't you go Stalkers then? 20pts more for like 2x the damage if shooting at flyers.
Real quick, I just want to mention how much I dislike the naming scheme of these two vehicles.
Why is the 'Stalker' the one that sprays bullets into the air, and not the one that methodically follows its target until it inevitably hits?
That being said, it's probably because Hunters are cheap and provide multiple utilities. They work against flyers well, but they can also handle ground targets efficiently.
A Stalker with a reroll source is better vs ground than the Hunter too, but yeah, I guess if you don't plan to have a captain hanging around them then the Hunter is basically the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other interesting thing with those lists is I kinda wonder where they buffed what? I'm assuming the bike captain with the ironstones went with the Invictors and then Feirros hung with the Whirlwinds/Hunters? Feirros's not fast enough to be with Invictors unless you just hung back and shot (and they did take the long range guns, but if you wanted to sit back all game Redemptors are available too, T7, and have the strat options, so I'm assuming Invictors were picked for the mobile potential).
I'm just kinda curious, since sure, Hunters can benefit from a 5+ inv, but who in the world is shooting at a T8/5++/6+++ Hunter when there's pretty much anything else on the table?
What's the best way to add some anti-tank to my army for under 180pts? Predators are bad, and contemptor options are better but I'd need to buy new arms, which I don't want to do.
Yeah, is the Finnish meta famous for being flyers heavy ? The tournament is full of flying models !
It is weird to see so many AA guns in so many IH lists
godardc wrote: Yeah, is the Finnish meta famous for being flyers heavy ? The tournament is full of flying models !
It is weird to see so many AA guns in so many IH lists
Every competitive list I've built has started with 3 stalkers. For their points, they're fantastic and flyers are everywhere at the moment. Eldar jets, jetbikes, riptides, repulsors etc.
For 510 points you can get three hunters and three stalkers. That's 66 wounds on T8 chassis, three Str 9, AP -3, D6 shots and 18 Str 7, Ap -1, D2 shots that all hit flyers on 2+. That's a lot of anti-air that's not bad against other targets too, plus a lot of wounds on the field. Sure it blows against Daemons, but you've got repulsors/redemptors for that.
Since I play Crimson Fists I’ve been thinking about the units that might benefit a lot from the rumoured IF/CF rule of +1 damage vs vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons. This is obviously unconfirmed so might be a total waste of time. If that bothers you, skip this post! I just noticed that Tor Garadon has this rule baked into his rules for all his attacks, so that might either confirm or negate the rumour.
Anyway if it’s true, the obvious things to look for are heavy weapons with lots of shots. Taking this a step further, you want to look beyond just the number of shots and look at the likely number of wounding hits you’ll cause, after saves. That number x1 is the amount of extra damage the rumoured super doctrine will do.So an autocannon might turn out to still do more damage on average than a heavy bolter, for example, because more hits go through.
Here are some options for things that look like being able to throw out a lot of heavy weapon shots:
Centurion devastators, either with heavy bolters or grav. Grav probably does more damage to most vehicles, though with shorter range. Heavy bolters and missile launchers might be a non-insane option. Fists will have dakka elsewhere.
Stalkers have a respectable number of shots for their cost. A pretty high proportion of vehicles you might be shooting at have the fly keyword at the moment. These guys won’t have a great time vs repulsors though and there’s no point pretending they will.
Stormhawks and Storm Talons – though they’re penalised for moving.
Land Raider Redeemers. Bit of a leftfield choice here, but 2D6 D3 flamer shots could be useful and it can carry 4 centurions. Twin assault cannon too, obvs. Intriguing option against stuff like Eldar planes.
Redemptor dreadnoughts. These look like a decent all-round choice for Crimson Fists. The +1 to hit big units should offset some of the penalty for moving. They have 18 heavy bolter shots and other weapons besides.
Invictors have a lot of heavy weapons, once you factor in the stubbers. Penalties for moving, though these don’t apply to the 2D6 hit heavy flamer.
Either kind of repulsor. I don’t know why you’d run a non-executioner repulsor any more, but they still exist.
Assault cannon razorbacks of course. I’ve never been a fan of these but their damage looks respectable.
Mortis dreads with either quad heavy bolters or autocannons.
Fire raptors. Oh the humanity! They are fragile for their price so you might want to see if there are ways to improve their durability. Or just take two. Tor Garadon can make it hit on a 2+ once, but he obviously can’t keep up with it. A Chaplain riding after it on a bike and shouting at it would be funnier.
Leviathan dreadnoughts get 20 nasty shots. Not as immortal as an Iron Hands one, but 50% more lethal.
The Deredeo might actually be a big winner here, particularly since you might well want its bubble to protect some of the rest of this stuff. The autocannons and heavy bolters combine to do pretty serious harm.
TFCs. These are great anyway so it’s not hard to see that making them D2 might come in handy.
The problem with the rumoured IF super doctrine is it's just so much worse than the IH/UM one, especially when IF want to be in tactical doctrine since they are the bolters extraordinaire chapter.
It's debatable whether Iron Hands negate Crimson Fists. You could argue that the opposite is true.
1-damage weapons like heavy bolters won't be as good against Iron Hands than they would be against everyone else, but 2-damage weapons will be twice as good.
In the WD index thingy, Crimson Fists had a strat to get +1 to hit characters. Things like eliminators could be pretty good for removing whoever's holding the Ironstone.
Iron Hands remain the Marine army to beat though, clearly. I guess we haven't seen the fists' relics and stuff yet, so they might have something as absurd as the Ironstone, or the stone might get nerfed. Without it Iron Hands are somewhat reasonable - though still fantastic.
If that mortal wound stratagem from Vigilus makes it to the IF/CF then you don't need big guns to take down IH. Just disintegrate them with bolter centurions.
Thunderfire canons are stupidly good in IH armies. They basically auto hit (miss once in 36) and you can slow the enemy down for more shots and can target the stuff hiding from your ridiculous gun castle.
Yeah the TFC for Iron Hands is just a perfect bit of synergy. You're going to be in devastator doctrine and you need to be able to kill objective-holders that your repulsors can't see. The Techmarines can even repair damaged tanks.
The IH bonuses are pretty much perfect synergy for everything, that’s the silly part. Every RG list iteration I’ve done I’ve looked at it after and been like, okay, this isn’t a bad list per se, but I could flip the chapter to IH and lose nothing as I trade one durability bonus for another and what I lose vs chars I gain in all those spread out units getting free reroll 1s and move and fire. And these are lists with almost vehicles, vehicles just make IH versions even better.
I am surprised your ravenguard list and your ih list look the same. My ravenguard list would not work as ih, too much infantry moving up and deploying in the "free" zone like centurions. I think the general list ih will be best, but if your looking at a different army it becomes a case of "what can these guys do better than ih?"
I’m no saying my ideal IH list looks like my ideal RG list, I’m saying I think I could take my RG list and flip the chapter to IH and it wouldn’t lose that much, cause it’s bonus covers so many units that aren’t even thought of as IH. Eliminators/scout snipers keep their ap and get reroll 1s, Invictors get rerolls and the vehicle buffs, etc. There aren’t many units that are bad in IH and good elsewhere. Ex, other chapters do Aggressors better, but even an IH Aggressor is still a decent unit as it’s tougher to kill and provides some anti horde the rest of an IH list might lack.
I own a ton of White Scar models from back in 7th. I was building up a Gladius Strike Force when 8th hit So I have a lot of white bikes, some stalkers, a hunter, some scouts, various flyers, rhinos, a vindicator, a predator, a couple of land raiders, razorbacks and a bunch of tactical squads. Just no primaris models. When 8th hit I dusted off my guard and have been playing them religiously. Now that the SM have a decent book and GW seems to be pumping out a new SM chapter book a month I'm considering jumping ship. IH seems to be top-dog at the moment from what I'm hearing from my SM buddies at my flgs but I'm concerned it'll get FAQ'd out of existence and I'll be stuck with a bunch of black models that will be tough to repaint. Are White Scars at all decent? Should I sit it out for another 6 months and see what the next couple of codex expansions look like? Can a non-primaris army be competitive?
That’s true about everything working as Iron Hands. Also, a lot of the RG benefits look less good now there’s vanguard stuff everyone can access.
So for example the RG warlord trait to infiltrate with a unit is fantastic. You bring 6 devastator centurions and go to town. But actually anyone can now have invictors, incursors and so on do this, and IH invictors are amazing.
I’ve actually been looking at RG and finding their core traits don’t really make that much sense with their strats and stuff. They have these great bonuses for when they are far away and in cover, combined with all these tricks for getting into close combat with stuff. Isn’t that a bit odd?
It might make more sense to play a successor of some kind with melee traits. Maybe space sharks. Give them traits like +1 to advance and charge and +3” range, then proceed to burn everything. You could soup the army without much trouble if you wanted.
It’s a bit of a shame to lose Shrike but he’s not that great really. The model might make a good smash captain.
@necron99, I’d say wait until we see what Imperial/Crimson Fists are like. We ought to see them pretty soon along with salamanders, and black templars not long after.
Mandragola wrote: That’s true about everything working as Iron Hands. Also, a lot of the RG benefits look less good now there’s vanguard stuff everyone can access.
So for example the RG warlord trait to infiltrate with a unit is fantastic. You bring 6 devastator centurions and go to town. But actually anyone can now have invictors, incursors and so on do this, and IH invictors are amazing.
I’ve actually been looking at RG and finding their core traits don’t really make that much sense with their strats and stuff. They have these great bonuses for when they are far away and in cover, combined with all these tricks for getting into close combat with stuff. Isn’t that a bit odd?
It might make more sense to play a successor of some kind with melee traits. Maybe space sharks. Give them traits like +1 to advance and charge and +3” range, then proceed to burn everything. You could soup the army without much trouble if you wanted.
It’s a bit of a shame to lose Shrike but he’s not that great really. The model might make a good smash captain.
@necron99, I’d say wait until we see what Imperial/Crimson Fists are like. We ought to see them pretty soon along with salamanders, and black templars not long after.
Exactly my thoughts. A chapter with lots of charge bonuses couples so odd with long range protection. I know the intent is to help protect them as they close, but then there’s so many scout/deep strike deploy options that it’s less relevant. And the new book makes it crazy binary if you go all in on the charge route, you win first turn and those Cents/Aggressors will wreck face or go second and half your cool strats are now worthless. Why is there barely any midgame tricks/bonuses for them? And yeah going RG successor with 2 of +3 range, +1” charge, whirlwind, or stealthy seems best.
I was thinking the way RG is intended to be played if not banking on winning the first turn is you deploy, see where your opponent deploys, then pay a boatload of cps to infiltrate your army to only face off against half their list while the other half is out of range or taking the 12” penalty...The flaw being so many armies are either hyper mobile (flyers) or super long range so they’re still hitting you.
Im hoping Reece does a write up/podcast on RG soon, see how he suggests. I heard him say a few times that RG was the chapter he was personally looking forwards to the most and since he played tested these presumably he had some ideas in mind of how they function without being inferior IH (shooty) or inferior White Scars (cc).
What about Rapier Carriers (with Quad Launchers) in an Iron Hands list?
They provide much the same utility as a Thunderfire Cannon. Worse AP by 1, worse durability, no stratagems, and only 3+ BS are all noteworthy downsides, but it's slightly cheaper than a TFire and comes with an incredibly useful 4-shot, 24" missile launcher alt-fire. (It's 3 damage instead of d6, but if anything I consider that a boon rather than a downside over missile launchers.)
Hiding behind LOS-blocking terrain, and popping out only when you need to use the anti-tank shot compensates for the lower durability, and that's a lot of high S shots which will have AP-3 for less than 90 points.
I expect the Raven Guard chapter tactic to help my support elements, not my assault elements. The Scouts and Eliminators will be harder to remove while they scurry around picking off characters and objectives. Meanwhile the opponent's focus should be monopolized by the units that I'm cramming down his throat, Genestealer Cult style.
Agreed, Raven Guard seems to work well with shooty support infantry in a castle or gunline, then either an in your face assault element, or just some generally disruptive elements to cause problems for your opponent as he tries to shoot-assault your shooty force out of position.
But Raven Guard appears, in this version, to be much more about giving benefits to infantry rather than vehicles.
I’m dusting off my devastators with missile launchers and lascannons. Three hunky squads of devs in terrain, supported by characters (maybe even a standard and/or apothecary) can lay down solid firepower from outside the range of the currently-popular 24” and 30” primaris vehicles for a couple of turns before anything would even have the chance to shift them. True, they don’t get any particular anti-armor bonus or anything, but chapter master rerolls, litany of fire, and the usual stuff should make them pretty good at blasting stuff.
Then there’s the current meta: Played a tournament last Saturday where every one of my opponent’s armies was built around layered buffs from characters standing in the open, and/or characters with more than 10 wounds. I wish I had been playing my Raven Guard. I would have done much better.
Then even more when you look at the list in the context of actual missions and scenarios, the ability to disrupt the opponent’s plans with shadowstepping characters all over the table, infantry dropping on objectives in the backfield for 1 CP (no pod required), sergeants sniping out characters with the funky pistol...
It’s not all about dropping in and assaulting. There’s also dropping in a character with the Reliquary of Gathalamor in a place where it will disable the opponent’s psychic phase, doing a psychic phase fire-and-fade with shadowstep, putting models where your opponent has to send something to deal with them, even if they just sit there, where they can score you recon points every turn, and then when somebody gets close to them, shadowstepping to the other side of the table.
It feels like a finesse army, with options that will still be viable when the infiltrator/incursor box finally comes out and the omni-scramblers make 9” drop+assault a thing of the past.
Mandragola wrote: Since I play Crimson Fists I’ve been thinking about the units that might benefit a lot from the rumoured IF/CF rule of +1 damage vs vehicles and buildings for heavy weapons. This is obviously unconfirmed so might be a total waste of time. If that bothers you, skip this post! I just noticed that Tor Garadon has this rule baked into his rules for all his attacks, so that might either confirm or negate the rumour.
Anyway if it’s true, the obvious things to look for are heavy weapons with lots of shots. Taking this a step further, you want to look beyond just the number of shots and look at the likely number of wounding hits you’ll cause, after saves. That number x1 is the amount of extra damage the rumoured super doctrine will do.So an autocannon might turn out to still do more damage on average than a heavy bolter, for example, because more hits go through.
Here are some options for things that look like being able to throw out a lot of heavy weapon shots:
Centurion devastators, either with heavy bolters or grav. Grav probably does more damage to most vehicles, though with shorter range. Heavy bolters and missile launchers might be a non-insane option. Fists will have dakka elsewhere.
Stalkers have a respectable number of shots for their cost. A pretty high proportion of vehicles you might be shooting at have the fly keyword at the moment. These guys won’t have a great time vs repulsors though and there’s no point pretending they will.
Stormhawks and Storm Talons – though they’re penalised for moving.
Land Raider Redeemers. Bit of a leftfield choice here, but 2D6 D3 flamer shots could be useful and it can carry 4 centurions. Twin assault cannon too, obvs. Intriguing option against stuff like Eldar planes.
Redemptor dreadnoughts. These look like a decent all-round choice for Crimson Fists. The +1 to hit big units should offset some of the penalty for moving. They have 18 heavy bolter shots and other weapons besides.
Invictors have a lot of heavy weapons, once you factor in the stubbers. Penalties for moving, though these don’t apply to the 2D6 hit heavy flamer.
Either kind of repulsor. I don’t know why you’d run a non-executioner repulsor any more, but they still exist.
Assault cannon razorbacks of course. I’ve never been a fan of these but their damage looks respectable.
Mortis dreads with either quad heavy bolters or autocannons.
Fire raptors. Oh the humanity! They are fragile for their price so you might want to see if there are ways to improve their durability. Or just take two. Tor Garadon can make it hit on a 2+ once, but he obviously can’t keep up with it. A Chaplain riding after it on a bike and shouting at it would be funnier.
Leviathan dreadnoughts get 20 nasty shots. Not as immortal as an Iron Hands one, but 50% more lethal.
The Deredeo might actually be a big winner here, particularly since you might well want its bubble to protect some of the rest of this stuff. The autocannons and heavy bolters combine to do pretty serious harm.
TFCs. These are great anyway so it’s not hard to see that making them D2 might come in handy.
Hellblasters with heavy plasma incinerstors will be nice. on the over charge they're basicly las canons that deal a straight 3 damage. grab a ten man squad of them and go to town.
Okay, new RG question, let's start by assuming I want to put 12 Aggressors into my RG list (whether I need 12 or if Cents are better are open questions, but I happen to own 12 Aggressors and 0 Cents). What is the best way to break them up?
I'm thinking 1 unit has to be 6 guys as the prime Master of Ambush pull. That many in the face or midfield and in range to double tap from turn 1 is a serious threat.
But for the other 6 that will very likely be deep struck, does it make more sense to run 1 large unit or 2 small? 2 gives another free sgt, twice the chance of making a charge roll, harder to tie up, and can threaten more board space since you aren't risking over-committing a giant death ball to a corner cause you need to kill 5 guys on an objective. The upside to all 1 unit is having enough bodies to still push through serious melee damage after 1-2 losses and is less likely to be struck back.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Agreed, Raven Guard seems to work well with shooty support infantry in a castle or gunline, then either an in your face assault element, or just some generally disruptive elements to cause problems for your opponent as he tries to shoot-assault your shooty force out of position.
But Raven Guard appears, in this version, to be much more about giving benefits to infantry rather than vehicles.
I’m dusting off my devastators with missile launchers and lascannons. Three hunky squads of devs in terrain, supported by characters (maybe even a standard and/or apothecary) can lay down solid firepower from outside the range of the currently-popular 24” and 30” primaris vehicles for a couple of turns before anything would even have the chance to shift them. True, they don’t get any particular anti-armor bonus or anything, but chapter master rerolls, litany of fire, and the usual stuff should make them pretty good at blasting stuff.
Then there’s the current meta: Played a tournament last Saturday where every one of my opponent’s armies was built around layered buffs from characters standing in the open, and/or characters with more than 10 wounds. I wish I had been playing my Raven Guard. I would have done much better.
Then even more when you look at the list in the context of actual missions and scenarios, the ability to disrupt the opponent’s plans with shadowstepping characters all over the table, infantry dropping on objectives in the backfield for 1 CP (no pod required), sergeants sniping out characters with the funky pistol...
It’s not all about dropping in and assaulting. There’s also dropping in a character with the Reliquary of Gathalamor in a place where it will disable the opponent’s psychic phase, doing a psychic phase fire-and-fade with shadowstep, putting models where your opponent has to send something to deal with them, even if they just sit there, where they can score you recon points every turn, and then when somebody gets close to them, shadowstepping to the other side of the table.
It feels like a finesse army, with options that will still be viable when the infiltrator/incursor box finally comes out and the omni-scramblers make 9” drop+assault a thing of the past.
I agree with everything you just said there but I must point out the 9" drop assault isn't going anywhere thanks to the drop pod. Scrambles say you have to drop outside 12". So 12.1", no problem. Drop the drop pod in there, guys get out. Guys have to get out outside 9" from enemy units and within 3" of the pod(thats the drop pods deployment rule). That's still putting you just outside 9" with your guys because they are not affected by the scrambler rules. How useful this actually is, now that's debatable, but its definitely something to keep in mind.
I am finding I am putting dev squads in drop pods now, 1 grav team and 2 las teams. This makes up the bulk of my alpha strike anti tank and seems to work incredibly well with my ravenguard. Centurions take the brunt of the enemy fire with an apothecary that deployed them up, dev teams drop in, snipers cover the map and do their thing, and primaris troops make up the bulk of my anti infantry. Throw a thunder fire cannon in out of Los and an exterminator team or 2 and well, you have a lot of troops and very little good targets for those enemy anti tank weapons.
Agree on the devs and RG tactics, but the deployment question might be one for YMDC. Omni-scrambler rule refers to “Enemy units that are set up on the battlefield as reinforcements.” I’m not sure units disembarking from a drop pod don’t fit that description.
godardc wrote: Would the +1 to hit for terminators work in overwatch ? IIRC you can't modify the roll to hit in overwatch ?
Have to correct you a bit here.
You can modify overwatch as much as you like, but only natural 6's hit. Tau drones with penalties to hit (againgst flyers and such) only hit on 6's even if their trait lets them hit on 5's.
Hellblasters with heavy plasma incinerstors will be nice. on the over charge they're basicly las canons that deal a straight 3 damage. grab a ten man squad of them and go to town.
Heavy hellblasters are still awful, even for Fists. It’s just always worse to have one shot instead of two, especially when you’re trying to score a lot of wounding hits. It’s a shame they didn’t do something to fix the heavy and assault hellblasters as they did for bolt rifles. Only rapid fire hellblasters are at all useable for most chapters. Assault hellblasters might work for ravenguard – a friend of mine did well with some at the beginning of 8th and they’re decent in an infantry list with high target saturation and penalties to hit.
And bizarrely, suppressors are cheaper. If you’re talking about a heavy weapon you can have one with two shots, -3ap in devastator doctrine and 48” range – though only S7. So you’ll wound tough things a bit less often but never blow up, and do at least as much damage against virtually any target in the game. Against T<7 they’re simply twice as good as heavy hellblasters, with no risk of blowing up and also cheaper. The fact suppressors have also got jump packs is just a bonus – quite a nice one.
For what it’s worth I didn’t include stalker rifle intercessors in my list for a similar reason. One shot each and not a great chance of wounding vehicles or buildings (typically needing at least a 5+) means they just don’t benefit much. Better to just take ordinary rifles or ABRs I think, and have your troops deal with the enemy troops.
In general the easiest way to get a lot of heavy weapons is to take lots of vehicles. This is a bit problematic because it makes them a direct comparison with Iron Hands, whose vehicles are simply better. I could see a Deredeo with a shield being a good way to replicate some of the benefits IH get. Otherwise Devastator Centurion spam with the Vigilus detachment (which is apparently still legal, judging by the latest FAQ) looks like probably the best unique option for Fists.
bort wrote: Okay, new RG question, let's start by assuming I want to put 12 Aggressors into my RG list (whether I need 12 or if Cents are better are open questions, but I happen to own 12 Aggressors and 0 Cents). What is the best way to break them up?
I'm thinking 1 unit has to be 6 guys as the prime Master of Ambush pull. That many in the face or midfield and in range to double tap from turn 1 is a serious threat.
But for the other 6 that will very likely be deep struck, does it make more sense to run 1 large unit or 2 small? 2 gives another free sgt, twice the chance of making a charge roll, harder to tie up, and can threaten more board space since you aren't risking over-committing a giant death ball to a corner cause you need to kill 5 guys on an objective. The upside to all 1 unit is having enough bodies to still push through serious melee damage after 1-2 losses and is less likely to be struck back.
Larger squads will be buffed better. It will cost 1 CP to Strike from the Shadows, and you can give more models things like Transhuman Physiology or a chaplain +1 to wound buff. They can still split fire if you need to, though the shorter range will hurt you there. For me, units like Aggressors are your hammer while your troop-based units are better for board control.
If I know I'm going first (as in many ITC missions) and I have some Raven Guard JP infantry, like say Vanguard Vets, I can make this Vanguard Bomb:
1. Use Master of Ambush to redeploy my Vanguard unit anywhere on the table more than 9" from enemy models. (The character with the power can go with them, but doesn't have to.)
2. Use Infiltrators stratagem to move and advance 13-18" before turn one, jumping over terrain, screens, etc.
3. Move and advance normally, 13-18" in turn one, jumping over terrain, screens, etc.
4. Use Strike from the Skies stratagem to charge, with +1 to the charge roll, also optionally using The Raven's Blade stratagem for a charge reroll if I feel like I need it.
If you roll straight 1s on your advance and charge dice, that's a minimum 29" of movement from your starting place 9" from the initial enemy model. With average rolls that's 39" of move & charge. All for 2-4 CP and a warlord power.
Am I missing something? Can this even be screened against? For a big unit of Vanguard with Thunderhammers, is even Fierros safe?
The Iron Father would be safe, as, you're not likely going to be able to get within an inch of him (unless your opponent just doesn't want to wall him off with 3 Repulsors etc.
But yes, you can do this - though i don't think you'll need to worry about using the advance and charge strat.
2. Use Infiltrators stratagem to move and advance 13-18" before turn one, jumping over terrain, screens, etc.
You won’t be able to jump over screens with the infiltrator stratagem as you’ll be starting 9” away, and have to end 9” away, from enemy models. You just don’t have the distance. Now if you move faster that 12, you might be able to do it, but it would then depend upon the placement of enemy units.
2. Use Infiltrators stratagem to move and advance 13-18" before turn one, jumping over terrain, screens, etc.
You won’t be able to jump over screens with the infiltrator stratagem as you’ll be starting 9” away, and have to end 9” away, from enemy models. You just don’t have the distance. Now if you move faster that 12, you might be able to do it, but it would then depend upon the placement of enemy units.
Whoops, there's the hitch. Thanks for finding that.
If I know I'm going first (as in many ITC missions) and I have some Raven Guard JP infantry, like say Vanguard Vets, I can make this Vanguard Bomb:
1. Use Master of Ambush to redeploy my Vanguard unit anywhere on the table more than 9" from enemy models. (The character with the power can go with them, but doesn't have to.)
2. Use Infiltrators stratagem to move and advance 13-18" before turn one, jumping over terrain, screens, etc.
3. Move and advance normally, 13-18" in turn one, jumping over terrain, screens, etc.
4. Use Strike from the Skies stratagem to charge, with +1 to the charge roll, also optionally using The Raven's Blade stratagem for a charge reroll if I feel like I need it.
If you roll straight 1s on your advance and charge dice, that's a minimum 29" of movement from your starting place 9" from the initial enemy model. With average rolls that's 39" of move & charge. All for 2-4 CP and a warlord power.
Am I missing something? Can this even be screened against? For a big unit of Vanguard with Thunderhammers, is even Fierros safe?
1. Master of Ambush also has to be 9 inches from their deployment zone. This matters if they don't deploy right at the edge.
2. As noted, this can be combo'ed with Master of Ambush, but you still have to end 9 inches away from enemy models.
3. Jump pack infantry will be very hard to screen against, as you've noted.
4. This will be situational, depending on whether you need to advance in the movement phase or not. You can also find other ways of rerolling charges, such as Shrike.
I'm planning on something similar to this, but the character that will be granting the Master of Ambush Warlord trait will be a jump chaplain with the Canticle of Hate. Not only will he be granting +2 to charges, he'll be granting 6 inch pile in and consolidates. Then consider the fight twice strategim so that even the repulsor wall will not stop it.
Yeah it’s a valid approach. The discussion seems to mainly centre around which character to use and which unit to send with them.
Personally I think it looks like Assault Centurions will be the best option, basically because they’re the most powerful infantry you can get. I can’t see many screening units living through 72 bolter shots and a load of flamers – plus whatever the rest of your army does. 6 of them only cost 312 points, bizarrely, so even with the character you’re probably looking at about 400 points. You might actually want some melta guns in the unit to fire at things like Eldar planes if they try to screen you out.
And I like the idea of a chaplain to go with them. That +2” to charge power is excellent, especially since it lets you consolidate 6”. You have a great chance of being able to wrap things. This move alone probably ends games if you get into something like an IG gunline or Tau.
For jump infantry, smash captains and the like I think I’d probably deploy normally and then launch forwards with the Infiltrators strat. I think a smash captain with the warlord trait to negate overwatch could be really useful if you want to get into melee with things like eldar planes or repulsors.
Ooh, dang it, when I added the 2nd jump Captain to my list with Teeth I forgot the Chaplain’s bonus also affects pile in and consolidates. I’m not keen on relying on his positioning and a 3+ roll to get that +2” to charge, so think will use the +1” chapter trait either way, but it’s tempting to swap out the captain for the chaplain. Basically trading 4 str5 2dmg character attacks for the aura to help get the Aggressors in and saving a cp from Teeth. I don’t think the Benediction of Fury would be worth it for a regular Chaplain not running mantra of Strength when I have so many uses for cps.
Edit: I doubt I’d use the cp still, but actually this is one of the few cases I’d consider using the Silentus Pistol. Benediction would make the Chaplain’s 4 swings dmg 3. Silentus would add 2 str 5 dmg2 shots that can hit characters. That’s like the same damage bonus, but gives range.
Right, also missed the 9" from deployment zone in Master of Ambush. I must be slipping.
I was looking for an alternative to the high-cost, deathbomb of centurions or aggressors--with a character--as an option for an army that's not really built around spending a lot of points and CPs for that. I'll have Vanguards anyway as a countercharge unit, so I was thinking this was a way to have an option for them that wouldn't cost more than 2-3 CPs or need a sacrificial character.
I can still use some of these strats situationally, or just as a deterrent, with my VV unit without having to build the army around an all-or-nothing unit that costs hundreds of points.
I used RG alphastrike units in 7th, but I didn't like the randomness of having to come up with the die rolls for long charges, psychic powers, or--in this version--chaplain litanies. So I'm trying to find options that minimize the random elements.
Just paying 1cp to have them move 12+d6 before turn 1 is really nice. I pay 2cp to do the same with my DC in BA. Ofc I can get within 9" with that move but I usually fall just short of that. But after that you can advance and still charge with your VV and get +1 to charges. That is even better than what Death Company gets.
12+d6 before turn 1. 12"+d6"+2d6"+1" on turn 1. That is far. You can even use a reroll for that advance if it would allow you to jump over a screen since you still can charge with the strat.
Looking for some more Anti tank options for my list. Has anyone had any good experience with las fusil squads of eliminators? Or is it better to keep them with sniper rifles and look elsewhere?
I believe that smart people that did the math on Las Fusils vs Bolt Sniper Rifles found that there was very little difference between the two when you use the Sgt. for the +1 to hit and wound.
Edit to Xirax:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Unless a rule specifically says that you can come in turn 1, I would assume the standard turn 2-3 deployment.
bmsattler wrote: I believe that smart people that did the math on Las Fusils vs Bolt Sniper Rifles found that there was very little difference between the two when you use the Sgt. for the +1 to hit and wound.
It should be if you account for point costs since the las fusil does a bit more damage but also costs more. I would take the bolt rifles everytime since they are better against more targets than the las fusils
Facisminthe41m wrote: Looking for some more Anti tank options for my list. Has anyone had any good experience with las fusil squads of eliminators? Or is it better to keep them with sniper rifles and look elsewhere?
I've played against Eliminators in two games so far. In both games the player deployed them too far forward, and I shot them off the board in turn 1. I also saw a battle report online where somebody deployed the Eliminators too far forward, and they were shot off the board in turn 1.
But even if they weren't too far forward, anything like a whirlwind or thunderfire can cripple or destroy the unit in turn 1. Even with the RG strats and camo, a TFC in turn one is hitting them on 3s, wounding on 3s, and getting the devastator doctrine -2 AP that negates their cover/camo.
Is it just me, or is 3 models just too small of a unit, even with 2 wounds each? I don't know how anybody is making Eliminators work
bmsattler wrote: I believe that smart people that did the math on Las Fusils vs Bolt Sniper Rifles found that there was very little difference between the two when you use the Sgt. for the +1 to hit and wound.
It should be if you account for point costs since the las fusil does a bit more damage but also costs more. I would take the bolt rifles everytime since they are better against more targets than the las fusils
But how about the instigator bolt rifle? Atleast I've used the sergeant for +1 BS.. but actually as we play ground floors of buildings block line of sight, I haven't ever managed to have the free move against charges, because my gaming group interprets that you need LoS against the charging target. So for example orks just come in range, charge through building walls/1st floors of Ruins and I can't use the ability to withdraw.. btw, is this normal interpretation?
Yeah, they faqed the mastercrafting to only apply to 1 profile, unfortunately.
However, what they didn’t faq away is if the bolter fusillade trait also applies to the boltstorm guantlets. As written it does, which is a nice bonus if you ever wanted to heavy go Aggressors and not worry about captains.
Xirax wrote: But how about the instigator bolt rifle? Atleast I've used the sergeant for +1 BS.. but actually as we play ground floors of buildings block line of sight, I haven't ever managed to have the free move against charges, because my gaming group interprets that you need LoS against the charging target. So for example orks just come in range, charge through building walls/1st floors of Ruins and I can't use the ability to withdraw.. btw, is this normal interpretation?
If you mean that you need LOS to overwatch against a charging target, then yes that is standard. If you mean that you have to have LOS to charge something, that is not how the rules read.
Your Eliminators shouldn't be on the first floor. They want good LOS. A tactic that I heard on a podcast recently is to post the eliminators on the 2'nd floor and put scouts below them to keep people off of them for another turn. You could also put the eliminators just in front of the building and fall back into it with the retreat-overwatch fire. You could even fall back up into the 2n'd floor if you had enough movement. To take it one step further, Scouts+Eliminators+Smash Captain makes a blob that people don't want to get very close to. Good for holding an objective.
Eldarain wrote: So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.
Oh dear! That is legitimately nasty!
Even nastier on an centurian sargent IMO. Both are pretty gross though.
I believe there's an FAQ stating it only applies to one part of the weapon-Shooting or Melee.
It applies to both shooting parts of a combi, if I remember correctly, though, so it's EXTRA confusing.
Just saying - 12 bolter shots with ignore cover and flat 2 damage is overall better than the aggressor sargent who only gets 12 shots if he didn't move AND doesn't naturally get ignore cover.
Eldarain wrote: So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.
Oh dear! That is legitimately nasty!
Even nastier on an centurian sargent IMO. Both are pretty gross though.
I believe there's an FAQ stating it only applies to one part of the weapon-Shooting or Melee.
It applies to both shooting parts of a combi, if I remember correctly, though, so it's EXTRA confusing.
Just saying - 12 bolter shots with ignore cover and flat 2 damage is overall better than the aggressor sargent who only gets 12 shots if he didn't move AND doesn't naturally get ignore cover.
Some of us didn't abandon Ultramarines for a Iron Hands parking lot
Xirax wrote: But how about the instigator bolt rifle? Atleast I've used the sergeant for +1 BS.. but actually as we play ground floors of buildings block line of sight, I haven't ever managed to have the free move against charges, because my gaming group interprets that you need LoS against the charging target. So for example orks just come in range, charge through building walls/1st floors of Ruins and I can't use the ability to withdraw.. btw, is this normal interpretation?
If you mean that you need LOS to overwatch against a charging target, then yes that is standard. If you mean that you have to have LOS to charge something, that is not how the rules read.
Your Eliminators shouldn't be on the first floor. They want good LOS. A tactic that I heard on a podcast recently is to post the eliminators on the 2'nd floor and put scouts below them to keep people off of them for another turn. You could also put the eliminators just in front of the building and fall back into it with the retreat-overwatch fire. You could even fall back up into the 2n'd floor if you had enough movement. To take it one step further, Scouts+Eliminators+Smash Captain makes a blob that people don't want to get very close to. Good for holding an objective.
Thanks for ideas. I build my RG as primaris, but I get the point. I've (re)deployed (master of deceit as non WLWT) my two eliminator squads with my phobos cpt in a ruin that the cpt is visible on top floor to use ex tenubris, but eliminators have been closer to enemy on ground floor and use those rounds tou don't need LoS. Your suggestion is more aggresive, but enemy can shoot at them.
bort wrote: Yeah, they faqed the mastercrafting to only apply to 1 profile, unfortunately.
However, what they didn’t faq away is if the bolter fusillade trait also applies to the boltstorm guantlets. As written it does, which is a nice bonus if you ever wanted to heavy go Aggressors and not worry about captains.
Mastercrafting can apply to more than one profile. It's more confusing than that. They told us that boltstorm gauntlets (shooting) and boltstorm guantlets (melee) are in fact different weapons despite the same name.
Fair point, it won’t apply to both a melee and a ranged profile, but will work for all ranged profiles or all melee profiles of the same weapon, if I recall.
Xirax wrote: Thanks for ideas. I build my RG as primaris, but I get the point. I've (re)deployed (master of deceit as non WLWT) my two eliminator squads with my phobos cpt in a ruin that the cpt is visible on top floor to use ex tenubris, but eliminators have been closer to enemy on ground floor and use those rounds tou don't need LoS. Your suggestion is more aggresive, but enemy can shoot at them.
Infiltrators would work better than scouts, though they are also more expensive. And they would be redundant with the phobos captain. I keep forgetting that Eliminators have the out of LOS option, and that's certainly valid. I would stay away from the bolt carbines if you're going to be out of LOS though. You'll get another shot as opposed to the 'run away when charged' option that you don't get anyway if you don't have LOS.
I think it should just be rifles for eliminators. They’re cheapest and I haven’t hear anyone say the fall back thing worked. It would be particularly useless if upstairs in a ruin, since you probably couldn’t increase your distance from a flying attacker by all that much anyway. Not everything can fly but enough things can to make it even less worthwhile to try and run when there’s nowhere to go.
At 24ppm eliminators aren’t much more expensive than intercessors. They are somewhat tougher and shoot quite well but losing s unit isn’t too bad. I think they seem good for ravenguard, as they’ll be hard to hit and can do great work against characters. They fill out brigades nicely too. Definitely not an essential unit though.
I've used eliminators a few times in small games and I've not really been that impressed with them really. They do have a use but their damage output per turn is small.
I think however I have used them poorly sometimes, I have often used their ability to infiltrate and put them a bit forward and they just end up dying.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I've used eliminators a few times in small games and I've not really been that impressed with them really. They do have a use but their damage output per turn is small.
I think however I have used them poorly sometimes, I have often used their ability to infiltrate and put them a bit forward and they just end up dying.
they should always be deplyoed in cover. and yeah, they're going to attract a lot of attention. so many armies are dependant on command auras and character buffs a good sniper unit is going to be a target. I'm thinking they might work well along side an Invictor acting as a distraction carnifex
So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.
Most riptides will have skyfire ability. So it would be on 5's. Or 4's if they mark you with fireblades and d3 markers stratagem. Long strike will also still hit on you 2's rerolling 1's with 5 markers.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.
I think Iron Hand Storm Hawks are a sleeper hit. It's already incredibly hard to deal with the executioner castle. How much worse is it with three fighter planes zooming around?
I think they're significantly better than Storm Talons. That random extra -1 to hit works against a large amount of the current meta, as fly is generally awesome otherwise, so is very popular.
Storm Hawks are also great for hunting things like harlequin haywire bikers, which are one of the bigger threats to executioners. They can dodge incoming fire and then spray and pray at the harlequins.
I'm not sure what weapons to give them. I generally prefer the las talon and typhoon to the dedicated AA options, but the talon is way more expensive than the icarus stormcannon. I think the typhoon missile launcher probably is worth the extra points over skyhammer missiles, though the difference isn't huge. A pair of heavy bolters actually looks like a decent option too. It's actually hard to decide, which is probably a good thing. It shows that the different options are probably more or less balanced.
I just did a bit of quick adding up and this list is possible at 2k:
Battalion of Primaris Captain (with just a gun) lieutenant and 3x5 intercessors
Spearhead of Feirros and 3 fully loaded HLC repulsor executioners
Flyer wing of 3 storm hawks, all with stormcannons and either skyhammer or heavy bolters.
That came to exactly 2k. I think it looks like a very harsh army to go up against. It's light on objective holders but I think it would do horrible things to most armies. I'm not sure whether the captain is the right pick but I think it could be well worth having a chapter master, just to take the option of charging a repulsor right off the table. A Chaplain with the relic crozuis as a counter-attacking beatstick would be an alternative. A Phobos captain would be a great option too, though you'd need to find some points.
You have the option of swapping out a plane if you want. Something like a TFC, invictor or dread could still be really helpful. If you freed up some points to get an infiltrator squad or two instead of intercessors I think you'd do well, but on the other hand the three planes would be seriously hard to deal with.
Shame the army doesn't quite fit inside its own transports. That's obviously of no meaningful effect in game, but it would be kind of cool. Feirros can probably be mag-locked to the outside of a Repulsor.
Eldarain wrote: So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.
Oh dear! That is legitimately nasty!
Even nastier on an centurian sargent IMO. Both are pretty gross though.
I believe there's an FAQ stating it only applies to one part of the weapon-Shooting or Melee.
It applies to both shooting parts of a combi, if I remember correctly, though, so it's EXTRA confusing.
Just saying - 12 bolter shots with ignore cover and flat 2 damage is overall better than the aggressor sargent who only gets 12 shots if he didn't move AND doesn't naturally get ignore cover.
Some of us didn't abandon Ultramarines for a Iron Hands parking lot
Aggressors are also naturally more mobile without the need for strats or transports. They basically move 9" a turn and still pop off 6+D6 shots. That value doesn't work for someone building straight parking lot though.
Mandragola wrote: just did a bit of quick adding up and this list is possible at 2k:
That’s a nasty list! I would not want to face that. Thoughts on the HQ discussion - make sure the Ironstone holder is durable enough to sniping. Lots of wounds, good save and an invulnerable. Chaplain probably isn’t beefy enough for that.
Also, the theoryhammer folks online seem to like a ten man intercessor squad, so that that “grot shield” / “savior protocol” type strat can keep Feirros and the Ironstone holder around even longer. Of course if your list did that points would have to be cut from somewhere.
Mandragola wrote: just did a bit of quick adding up and this list is possible at 2k:
That’s a nasty list! I would not want to face that. Thoughts on the HQ discussion - make sure the Ironstone holder is durable enough to sniping. Lots of wounds, good save and an invulnerable. Chaplain probably isn’t beefy enough for that.
Also, the theoryhammer folks online seem to like a ten man intercessor squad, so that that “grot shield” / “savior protocol” type strat can keep Feirros and the Ironstone holder around even longer. Of course if your list did that points would have to be cut from somewhere.
Yeah the list might be better if you only had two planes, some other cheaper thing like an Invictor, Redemptor or TFC instead of the third, and used the spare points to beef up the HQs. A Gravis captain might be the best guy to give the Ironstone and he could give a little bit of melee strength too.
I don’t know though. 3 planes are just so much harder to deal with than 2. If you come up against a ton of snipers then your Ironstone guy might die, but not a lot can quickly snipe a Primaris character who’s out of LoS – especially with some nearby intercessors to tank hits for him. I'm just not sure it's feasible to snipe the guy without spending so many points on snipers that you'd have nothing left to kill the planes and executioners with anyway.
Mandragola, I think you need to do some play testing, with your original list. The combo of 6 flying menaces may very well make up for the slightly less protected slightly less beefy HQ...
Has anyone thought of a use for Incursors? I’m not sure I get the point unless you really really need that primaris scout without buying the better Infiltrators. The ignore penalties and cover sounds great until you realize their guns can’t hurt anything like Eldar fliers and without a full size unit would even struggle to drop a min Ranger unit. I heard that they could be used to decent effect tying to stack up all those on hit rolls of 6s get an extra melee attack type buffs but then they FAQed it so 6 hit rolls don’t count as 6s for proccing more effects...What else do they do? I don’t see taking the unit for 1 mine unless the base unit was also decent.
So the Hunter/Stalker tanks seem to be getting some attention lately. What is you opinion on them? The Hunter seems a bit swingy with only one shot and D6 damage, but the Stalker looks like a good bit of fun for relatively few points, especially when combined with the Skyfire stratagem.
BertBert wrote: So the Hunter/Stalker tanks seem to be getting some attention lately. What is you opinion on them? The Hunter seems a bit swingy with only one shot and D6 damage, but the Stalker looks like a good bit of fun for relatively few points, especially when combined with the Skyfire stratagem.
I've tested Stalkers and they're pretty darn godly. I'm planning to buy three at this point.
Stavkat wrote: Mandragola, I think you need to do some play testing, with your original list. The combo of 6 flying menaces may very well make up for the slightly less protected slightly less beefy HQ...
So you're saying I have to do the work and not just theorise online? Curses!
bort wrote: Has anyone thought of a use for Incursors? I’m not sure I get the point unless you really really need that primaris scout without buying the better Infiltrators. The ignore penalties and cover sounds great until you realize their guns can’t hurt anything like Eldar fliers and without a full size unit would even struggle to drop a min Ranger unit. I heard that they could be used to decent effect tying to stack up all those on hit rolls of 6s get an extra melee attack type buffs but then they FAQed it so 6 hit rolls don’t count as 6s for proccing more effects...What else do they do? I don’t see taking the unit for 1 mine unless the base unit was also decent.
Yeah you're about right here. This is a unit that has managed to get nerfed before actually being released.
They're marginally more fighty than infiltrators, but lack the phenomenally-powerful aura that is the main reason to bring infiltrators in the first place. Instead you can get some guys right in the enemy's face... only to find they don't really have any good reason to be there.
BertBert wrote: So the Hunter/Stalker tanks seem to be getting some attention lately. What is you opinion on them? The Hunter seems a bit swingy with only one shot and D6 damage, but the Stalker looks like a good bit of fun for relatively few points, especially when combined with the Skyfire stratagem.
I've tested Stalkers and they're pretty darn godly. I'm planning to buy three at this point.
I haven't tried Stalkers but they do look legitimately powerful. If the rumours about Fists getting +1D with heavy weapons vs vehicles are true, then they'll be great. Not sure you want a full battery of three, but you could do worse.
Some people seem to have success with hunters too. I don't understand how.
Made a vid on the stalker the other day if it'd be of use to anyone. They are legit anti air, did the maths on that skyfire strat and it's totally worth it on the stalker (much more impressive than on the hunter)
They're also very durable for the points - essentially a leman russ chassis at around 60% of the cost!
And unlike russes you can stack a hideous number of buffs on them through characters, chapter tactics, doctrines and boosted chapter-specific doctrines (cough iron hands cough)
Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.
The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.
Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.
Mandragola wrote: Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.
The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.
Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.
You mean it wasn't the SUPER OP beyond broken leviathan that so many people thought was the end of the world? My oh my what a shocker! Whoever thought the dreadnoughts were going to be the scary part of what the Iron Hands could do were very silly.
Mandragola wrote: Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.
The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.
Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.
You mean it wasn't the SUPER OP beyond broken leviathan that so many people thought was the end of the world? My oh my what a shocker! Whoever thought the dreadnoughts were going to be the scary part of what the Iron Hands could do were very silly.
Indeed, because dreds don't fly. Executioners are very hard to take out because you can't prevent them from shooting by tarpiting them. They can also just fly over a wall and shoot, thus easily avoiding enemy alpha strike on dense terrain tables. Though I do think levi IH dreds are OP, just not as much as executioners (or even regular repulsors).
Mandragola wrote: Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.
The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.
Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.
You mean it wasn't the SUPER OP beyond broken leviathan that so many people thought was the end of the world? My oh my what a shocker! Whoever thought the dreadnoughts were going to be the scary part of what the Iron Hands could do were very silly.
Well I wasn't one of those people. An IH repulsor is obviously better than a dread with 24" range guns, no matter how immortal it is.
Imagine an IH leviathan trying to fight an IH executioner in a mirror match. It's kind of ridiculous. Probably neither of them would die, but the person with the leviathan would miss at least one round of shooting because of being out of range.
Anyway we'll see if Imperial Fists can fight back against this. I don't think anyone much else can. Maybe a list based around tons of lascannons would work, though the repulsors themselves have (better versions of) these.
Mandragola wrote: Glass hammer Gaming just did a batrep with a thrown together IH list up against Mani Cheeda’s 8Eldar flyer list that went 5:0 at the LGT. 2 storm ravens, four characters and 3 executioners.
The storm ravens killed a bunch of bikers and stuff on turn one and then died. Then the repulsors killed all the Eldar planes. Four planes died in turn two and three more in turn 3. The IH guy wasn’t even using all the repulsors’ guns - forgetting their Icarus ironhails and krakstorms, and he hurt himself loads with plasma.
Seeing this list on the board is just insane. I don’t know what anyone can do.
Yep that game was bonkers, running the worse plasma and annihilating planes left and right!!
The Librarian is an interesting touch. +1 to hit and heal D3 wound powers are both incredibly strong, and he can deny. Funny to start the game with 2CPs but that's all he seemed to need.
I think storm hawks are a better option than storm ravens for IH, and that they'd have made things even nastier. The chapter master looks like a must have.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.
I think Iron Hand Storm Hawks are a sleeper hit. It's already incredibly hard to deal with the executioner castle. How much worse is it with three fighter planes zooming around?
Middle of Nowhere GT in literal middle of nowhere Manitoba saw a pretty solid Iron Hands list make it 2nd with triple Stormhawks and triple Repulsor Executioners, so I think you're absolutely right here.
Mandragola wrote: The Librarian is an interesting touch. +1 to hit and heal D3 wound powers are both incredibly strong, and he can deny. Funny to start the game with 2CPs but that's all he seemed to need.
I think storm hawks are a better option than storm ravens for IH, and that they'd have made things even nastier. The chapter master looks like a must have.
I hadn't really looked at the difference between the two Storms. Having access to an additional -1 to hit is pretty darn good though for the price.
godardc wrote: Do you all play with the supplements ? Or is there anyone playing with just the codex ?
There's not really a reason to NOT play with the supplements-it's a straight boost in power (or at least, gives access to more options) with no downsides. Anything you don't like, you can just not use.
Mandragola wrote: The Librarian is an interesting touch. +1 to hit and heal D3 wound powers are both incredibly strong, and he can deny. Funny to start the game with 2CPs but that's all he seemed to need.
I think storm hawks are a better option than storm ravens for IH, and that they'd have made things even nastier. The chapter master looks like a must have.
I hadn't really looked at the difference between the two Storms. Having access to an additional -1 to hit is pretty darn good though for the price.
It really is. Affects pretty much all Eldar, Riptides, other people's repulsors, and pretty much every necron with a meaningful gun. It's a big help.
I did see that two IH armies had drawn against each other at the Middle of Nowhere tournament. Interesting that the one with the Astraeus did so well. I wonder if it went first when they played each other, because otherwise I'm surprised that army was able to compete. I wasn't there though.
I'm not at all sure if I'll actually build this list. It's clearly likely to get nerfed at some point so I don't think I'd go out and buy it. I just happen to have these three executioners sat in a box at home, undercoated, waiting to join an army. I think I'd only need to buy Feirros to make the army at 1750 - such is the state of my grey pile of plastic shame. I'd need a couple more stormhawks for 2k.
Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so...
I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?
godardc wrote: Do you all play with the supplements ? Or is there anyone playing with just the codex ?
There's not really a reason to NOT play with the supplements-it's a straight boost in power (or at least, gives access to more options) with no downsides. Anything you don't like, you can just not use.
I suppose not using the supplement would be a good way to reduce your armies power when fighting against armies on the lower end of the power spectrum.
godardc wrote:Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so... I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?
p5freak wrote:What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.
Champions got a boost in the new codex. I was looking at the rules in battlescribe, and they are out of date (at least my version when I checked) They have 4A base, plus a bunch of new rules.
I’ve had my eye on them to experiment with. First strike, full to hit/wound re-rolls vs. characters, 3/6” heroic intervention. MC sword and a 5++ for 47 points. Seems a nice little blender. Obviously, ALL they do is fight. They don’t add auras, there is no synergy to leverage. Competitive 40k is all about the synergies. The champion adds force, when you want to be multiplying. For a low cost HQ Elite to fill a slot, he can work, but you are probably better off with a techmarine, or a bare-bones captain/LT. Edit: woops, Elite, not HQ.
But once you take a step away from competitive army building... He has the same WS/A as a captain, so hits pretty well. Locked into the sword, which is not the best. But with full native re-rolls vs. characters, that’s mitigated quite a bit. He has a bunch of rules to help him get into combat, and get his swings in. Nice plus there. I think he should be able to pull his weight. He is not that expensive, so if you can get him into CC, he should make his points back. He’s a very characterful cool looking guy. I think the new book made him viable, if a little shy of competitive.
(Of course, Ultramarines get the Chapter Champion, which takes this guy up to 11. But still is probably a pass for competitive lists. Build and primed one myself, waiting for paint)
Yeah a chapter / company champion with the +1A, to hit and to wound WL really is scary for such a small investment. However I believe the company champion is an elite choice not a HQ one, I don't know yet for the Chapter Champion ?
godardc wrote: Yeah a chapter / company champion with the +1A, to hit and to wound WL really is scary for such a small investment. However I believe the company champion is an elite choice not a HQ one, I don't know yet for the Chapter Champion ?
Woops, my bad. Yes, they are both elites.
The perils of posting over the first cup of coffee...
godardc wrote:Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so...
I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?
p5freak wrote:What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.
Champions got a boost in the new codex. I was looking at the rules in battlescribe, and they are out of date (at least my version when I checked) They have 4A base, plus a bunch of new rules.
I’ve had my eye on them to experiment with. First strike, full to hit/wound re-rolls vs. characters, 3/6” heroic intervention. MC sword and a 5++ for 47 points. Seems a nice little blender. Obviously, ALL they do is fight. They don’t add auras, there is no synergy to leverage. Competitive 40k is all about the synergies. The champion adds force, when you want to be multiplying. For a low cost HQ to fill a slot, he can work, but you are probably better off with a techmarine, or a bare-bones captain/LT.
But once you take a step away from competitive army building...
He has the same WS/A as a captain, so hits pretty well. Locked into the sword, which is not the best. But with full native re-rolls vs. characters, that’s mitigated quite a bit. He has a bunch of rules to help him get into combat, and get his swings in. Nice plus there. I think he should be able to pull his weight. He is not that expensive, so if you can get him into CC, he should make his points back. He’s a very characterful cool looking guy. I think the new book made him viable, if a little shy of competitive.
(Of course, Ultramarines get the Chapter Champion, which takes this guy up to 11. But still is probably a pass for competitive lists. Build and primed one myself, waiting for paint)
Also good for filling out an elite slot for a brigade for not too many points. I'm thinking about swapping my 2-man company vets out for a company champ because he's easier to hide against indirect fire for only a few points more.
For Raven Guard, the anti-character abilities synergize with the chapter doctrines. Shadowstep and/or Infiltrators strat makes it possible to get him in reach of enemy characters. With the burning blade and RG bonus, he can wound character knights on a rerollable 4.
Agree on the Chapion for Brigade filling. He's kind of the cheapest elite slot that actually does something and isn't pure tax. Having the character keyword makes him far more survivable.
Ratius wrote: Has anyone been using drop pods of late with their updated rules?
I have four I'd love to root out and try again.
I used 3 of them last week against a TS list in the Narrow the Search mission from CA2018. I was going second. They were quite useful in this very precise configuration, but still paying about 200 pts for 3 deep strikes seems too much.
I did almost a null deployment except for a stormraven and some scouts and then deep striked right around the objective with half my army and seized it without any casualties. Couldn't have done it if I had to follow the Tactical Reserve rules or using rhinos.
I'll use the same list tomorrow against I think a Necron army so I'll be able to tell you more very soon.
Keep in mind I don't play very competitively and to be honest I think there are too many way to avoid deep strike now for it to be viable.
godardc wrote: Yeah a chapter / company champion with the +1A, to hit and to wound WL really is scary for such a small investment. However I believe the company champion is an elite choice not a HQ one, I don't know yet for the Chapter Champion ?
Woops, my bad. Yes, they are both elites.
The perils of posting over the first cup of coffee...
Chapter champion is quite mean. You can even give him a relic.
I run drop pods and find them to be quite amazing. There are a lot of ways to use them now beyond just deep striking some troops up. I typically run 2.
It depends on what I am playing against as to what goes in them. Typically I have a las dev team, a grav dev team, and 2 tactical 5 man squads that can go into them. If I am playing guard I put the dev teams in the drop pods and the tacticals start on the table. This way I can deploy my devs in perfect position to hit his tanks no matter how he deploys. Genestealer cults? Drop pods have tacticals. Deploy the pods in a way to make it very hard to deploy his troops from reserves.
I believe in the right list they can grant you a lot of flexibility vs almost any kind of list. You determine who goes in them during deployment which means your strategy can be effective depending on who your facing.
The issue with pods seems to be hordes. Essentially a horde unit can spread itself over a load of objectives, charge the pod, and stay locked in combat un-shootable for the whole game, confident that it and the pod will never kill each other.
It's not even just hordes who can do this. I can see myself doing the same thing with a squad of intercessors. One guy fights the pod and the other 4 snake back to an objective. Happy days.
That makes some assumptions that I don't necessarily agree with. Again this is all theory hammer like this but in my games this happened once. 10 intercessors thought they were safe fighting a drop pod and holding an objective. Then 5 vanguard vets got close and that was that, the intercessors couldn't fire overwatch or move back and shoot so they were sitting ducks for me to get in and kill. So theory wise thata true but gameplay can determine if it's actually a safe option or not.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So the Stormhawk interceptor received a change to its infernum halo launcher? This makes it a further minus 1 to hit when shot by units with the fly keyword. So my Tau buddy will hate it even more lol trying to hit it with his Riptide on 6s.
I think Iron Hand Storm Hawks are a sleeper hit. It's already incredibly hard to deal with the executioner castle. How much worse is it with three fighter planes zooming around?
Middle of Nowhere GT in literal middle of nowhere Manitoba saw a pretty solid Iron Hands list make it 2nd with triple Stormhawks and triple Repulsor Executioners, so I think you're absolutely right here.
and the only reason he got second was he forgot to move his flyers at one point and they all crashed. IH flyers seem to be the real threat, sorry dreads
I've been thinking about weapons that might get a new lease of life with the IF super doctrine and Heavy Plasma incinerators seem like an immediate candidate.
S8 -5AP and 2D base against vehicles means that it can do lots of work against many smaller vehicles and become S9 D3 when supercharged means it will reliably do damage to Leman Russ tanks and can be more reliable than any D6 weapon.
Accelerator Auto cannon became the premium light vehicle hunter and the Eliminators got more utility also. The Invictus tactical warsuit became both anti infantry and anti light tank with its weapons.
Any other sub par weapons you feel will get a much needed boost from the IF doctrine?
Klickor wrote: While bad weapons got better good weapons got even better.
Exactly this. Heavy incinerators become sort of almost ok, against vehicles. Kind of like a las fusil eliminator except with no camo cloak and a chance to blow himself up. So like a worse version of a unit that already isn’t very good.
Suppressors are a unit that seriously benefits from the Fists buff. They have a good chance to wound, two shots, and they’re surprisingly cheap.
Benefitting from the extra damage means wounding many times, to get that +1 often. So heavy bolters might not be great, because they plink off, and lascannons might not be, because they only get one shot. I think the best guns will be those with around S8 and plenty of shots. That’s why I think the Deredeo’s anvillus array has pretty much the perfect profile.
I think Las Fusil Eliminators with a Sergeant using Guided Aim will be quite good for Imperial Fists. Hitting on 2s, Str 8 with +1 to Wound, AP-4, 4 damage is pretty decent.
Against T6-T8 4++ an IF Heavy Bolter is equally as effective as a non IF lascannon while costing 40% of the lascannon. Both average ~0,8 wounds. Against 2+/3+ without an Invul the lascannon is a bit better but not more than twice as good so for IF you should just load up on those cheap str 5+ ap1+ weapons and preferably bolter versions for exploding 6s.
3 TFC(1 shooting twice) and 3 sniper eliminator squads deal enough damage to kill a Tank Commander in 1 turn and with character support they even do an average of 20 to a 4++ knight. Thats from 500pts of anti infantry and anti character units shooting at t8 tanks. IF should probably not take any dedicated anti tank weapons or units since that would just be overkill when their normal units already do anti tank duty better than most armies dedicated anti tank.
A 4man heavy bolter devastator squad costs 60pts less than a lascannon squad while doing the same against tanks and better against infantry. You get 3 HB squads for less than 2 LC squads.
5-15 scouts, 15-25 intercessors with the heavy version of the bolt rifle. 3 TFCs, 3 eliminators and 3 HB devastators sounds like a good base. A smash captain, a support captain, a LT and a Librarian/Chaplain for buffs. Enough dakka to wipe hordes and will even move down any tanks as well. Heavy bolters dont discriminate. That fire base without any character buffs deals about 45 damage against T8 3+ despite not a single anti tank unit...
Klickor wrote: Against T6-T8 4++ an IF Heavy Bolter is equally as effective as a non IF lascannon while costing 40% of the lascannon. Both average ~0,8 wounds. Against 2+/3+ without an Invul the lascannon is a bit better but not more than twice as good so for IF you should just load up on those cheap str 5+ ap1+ weapons and preferably bolter versions for exploding 6s.
3 TFC(1 shooting twice) and 3 sniper eliminator squads deal enough damage to kill a Tank Commander in 1 turn and with character support they even do an average of 20 to a 4++ knight. Thats from 500pts of anti infantry and anti character units shooting at t8 tanks. IF should probably not take any dedicated anti tank weapons or units since that would just be overkill when their normal units already do anti tank duty better than most armies dedicated anti tank.
A 4man heavy bolter devastator squad costs 60pts less than a lascannon squad while doing the same against tanks and better against infantry. You get 3 HB squads for less than 2 LC squads.
5-15 scouts, 15-25 intercessors with the heavy version of the bolt rifle. 3 TFCs, 3 eliminators and 3 HB devastators sounds like a good base. A smash captain, a support captain, a LT and a Librarian/Chaplain for buffs. Enough dakka to wipe hordes and will even move down any tanks as well. Heavy bolters dont discriminate. That fire base without any character buffs deals about 45 damage against T8 3+ despite not a single anti tank unit...
This is why I'm going bolter crazy with my lists lately.
I did a load of sums looking at different options to benefit from the Fists doctrine. Deredeos gain a lot. The Anvillus is a very consistent damage-dealer against pretty much any target in the game.
Heavy bolters are great but they need 5s to wound vehicles and that’s very swingy. The S8 on deredeos makes them way more consistent, especially with a lieutenant nearby.
There are fairly few comparable guns really. Suppressors look very effective though. You’d rather have S8 ap-1 than S7 ap-2 though.
I dont agree with HB being swingy compared to other shooting options. 1-2 str 8 shots wounding on 4+ and 3,5 str5 shots wounding on 5+ isnt very different. Especially when you consider how cheap the str 5 stuff is and how many of them you can have.
Lascannons are even more swingy even if they wound on 3s. That d6 damage roll vs D2 makes them swingier than Heavy Bolters. With the amount of invul saves and random damage on most anti tank shooting there really isnt any good non swingy options.
Everything shooty is super swingy compared to smash captains/assault centurions/libby dreads that can hit on 2s/3s with rerolls and can wound T8 on 2s or 3s with ap3-4 and flat damage 3 or 4. No shooting weapon is close to that but at least the Heavy Bolters make up for it in number of shots.
Having a heavy bolter deal 6 damage to a vehicle is very unlikely but not much more than a lascannon dealing 6. It is however more likely in dealing any damage than the lascannon on a knight.
Right but I wasn’t talking about lascannons, as you know. The example I gave was a deredeo dread. 8 shots at S8 with BS2+ and flat 2 (or 3 as fists) damage.
That thing wounds most targets on a 3, typically with a lieutenant reroll. If it stands still it can hit even planes on a 2+. You might roll a lot of 2s to wound but that would be unusual.
Once you get a really large number of heavy bolters they do get more consistent. But they aren’t necessarily the most efficient guns against vehicles, especially once you factor in the cost of whatever they are stuck onto. And of course IH laugh them off.
Alright, so I figured I would make a post with two lists I'm doing...eh with, with most of the "eh" coming from the first list of course. My stubborn nature hasn't helped much either of course.
So the first list is pretty obvious with the combination of shooting and chopping. It mostly relies on the deployment of the Intercessors and Centurions to deal with screening, and then a Beta Strike by T2 with Lias and crew, having switched to Tactical Doctrine by that point of course. While I wouldn't get the bonus of hurting characters, I don't find I've necessarily needed it outside the couple of times I REALLY wanted to hurt some Knights. The main problems with the list, of course, are skewed vehicle lists and of course the very low CP generated. It REALLY is not a lot once I've handed out Relics and such. I figured I'd lose the suicide Chaplain to put in a Librarian which could theoretically protect the Centurions or make them charge even quicker with Asterion.
Now onto the second list, this one with a MUCH higher win rate:
Spoiler:
BRIGADE - Raptors (Raven Guard Successor w/ Stealthy, Long Range Marksmen)
HQ:
x1 Lias Issodon
x1 Terminator Captain w/ Relic Blade, Storm Shield
x1 Biker Captain w/ Storm Bolter, Chainsword
This is the camping list trying to win on objectives and plinking away at the opponent. Now, I will grant I probably have some more nonsensical decisions in there for the Scouts, and the reason is that a poorer player will act irrationally trying to kill them, seeing as they're Raven Guard. The ML might entice some Knight players into wanting to knock out the squad. From there, I simply rely on the Sentry Guns for more of the spacing, TFCs to kill hordes, and Lias and Co. strike down for a nice finish, with them still getting potshots even if they die (and everyone but Lias will).
buddha wrote: The executioner increase finally makes sense with all the supplements now.
Only worth their cost as Ironhands and only because of busted relics and a cheap 5++ bubble and a nice 6+++ FNP. It is a 280 point tank at best for anyone else.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alright, so I figured I would make a post with two lists I'm doing...eh with, with most of the "eh" coming from the first list of course. My stubborn nature hasn't helped much either of course.
So the first list is pretty obvious with the combination of shooting and chopping. It mostly relies on the deployment of the Intercessors and Centurions to deal with screening, and then a Beta Strike by T2 with Lias and crew, having switched to Tactical Doctrine by that point of course. While I wouldn't get the bonus of hurting characters, I don't find I've necessarily needed it outside the couple of times I REALLY wanted to hurt some Knights. The main problems with the list, of course, are skewed vehicle lists and of course the very low CP generated. It REALLY is not a lot once I've handed out Relics and such. I figured I'd lose the suicide Chaplain to put in a Librarian which could theoretically protect the Centurions or make them charge even quicker with Asterion.
Now onto the second list, this one with a MUCH higher win rate:
Spoiler:
BATTALION - Raptors (Raven Guard Successor w/ Stealthy, Long Range Marksmen)
HQ:
x1 Lias Issodon
x1 Terminator Captain w/ Relic Blade, Storm Shield
x1 Biker Captain w/ Storm Bolter, Chainsword
This is the camping list trying to win on objectives and plinking away at the opponent. Now, I will grant I probably have some more nonsensical decisions in there for the Scouts, and the reason is that a poorer player will act irrationally trying to kill them, seeing as they're Raven Guard. The ML might entice some Knight players into wanting to knock out the squad. From there, I simply rely on the Sentry Guns for more of the spacing, TFCs to kill hordes, and Lias and Co. strike down for a nice finish, with them still getting potshots even if they die (and everyone but Lias will).
I like the style of that second list the most. Might I suggest swapping the Tarantulas for Attack bikes? They're identical in costs and defensive stats. Stationary they're more accurate and can target whatever they want, and on the move they bring more dakka at the same accuracy as the sentry guns. Might give some more mobility so you aren't so in need of stationary screening placement.
My issue with Attack Bikes is the Heavy Bolter being such a dinky weapon on the move for them. You get 1.5 shots on average, which is sometimes 1 shot a turn! The TL Bolter can help make up for it but not by a lot.
The neat thing with the Taratulas is that they're averaging 3 hits a turn, and can't be tied up. You'd be often surprised when even Vet players try to charge them and fail to kill it, and then it spits out more shots again.
Minor thing, but you have it listed as a Battalion and organized like a Brigade. I'm not experienced enough with marines to know whether your Grav Sternguard Vets are enough of a hammer to make the list work. It looks light to me, especially on anti-vehicle.
What do you gain from the Long-Range Marksmen? I like it for flamers and grenades, but I'm not seeing the units in your list that would benefit.
bmsattler wrote: Minor thing, but you have it listed as a Battalion and organized like a Brigade. I'm not experienced enough with marines to know whether your Grav Sternguard Vets are enough of a hammer to make the list work. It looks light to me, especially on anti-vehicle.
What do you gain from the Long-Range Marksmen? I like it for flamers and grenades, but I'm not seeing the units in your list that would benefit.
Flexible deployment is key. We all know we've had moments when we say to ourselves we needed those couple of extra inches to make a charge or get into Rapid Fire. Long Range Marksmen capitalizes on that need we ALL have. When it comes to grenades, Sternguard will lob them for sure, but the main point is making deployment much easier for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also you're right. I'll fix the wording real quick for the Brigade.
So hypothetical question for Iron Hands types. How are you planning on dealing with Genestealer lists? Nasty units that show up out of nowhere and whollop you hard enough to guarantee they can kill one or two units when they do.
bmsattler wrote: So hypothetical question for Iron Hands types. How are you planning on dealing with Genestealer lists? Nasty units that show up out of nowhere and whollop you hard enough to guarantee they can kill one or two units when they do.
The flying circus lists won't be too bothered and the rest will have phobos captain and infiltrators. to solve that issue.
GSC list often smite/psychic power down planes along with forcing them to crash.
IH can nullify that power on a 4+ and half the planes can hover so that tactic is out as well.
I've seen GSC lists shoot planes out of the air (mining lazors in Nick's GSC), demo charge them, hand flamer them or just ignore them and dare them to kill 90 GSC bodies.
GSC has a tough time charging enough of the repulsors to kill them (if they don't die the GSC are screwed). Also the GSC need targets to wrap in order to not get shot to death, with flying tanks screening everything there is no wrapping.
I think GSC can still deal with the list but the flyers screening out throws a major wrench in the GSC players plans. Unless they can find targets to wrap it's like shooting fish in a barrel with all those anti-infantry guns on the executioners/planes...
I don't know. I was supposed to be going to a rather large tournament in December but I'm not looking forward to either painting up an IH army list or designing a list built to only beat IH and losing to every non-mech list I fight. Games not in a good place to me at the moment.
bmsattler wrote: So hypothetical question for Iron Hands types. How are you planning on dealing with Genestealer lists? Nasty units that show up out of nowhere and whollop you hard enough to guarantee they can kill one or two units when they do.
5+ overwatch with full re-rolls. 4+ if needed. Omni-scramblers pushing back deepstrike and fly to move out of combat and shoot more.
The key is in having enough shots to deal with things as they come down without diluting your other matchups to much.
Man, back to my whole grumble over IH just seeming better no matter what units I pick, that Battle for Salvation winning IH list looks way more like my RG list than I care for. Basically swap my assault cents for a set of typhoon speeders and I’m there. I was soooo close to avoiding the allure of IH because I don’t want to go buy triple executioners or 6 flyers before the (hopeful) faqing, but his list I can build today...
To think, my fugly rogue trader era tech on a bike I painted when I was 10 could see play for first time in over 20 years (until Legends anyways)
The IH list is a brigade:
Bike cap
Bike techmarine
Lib
Phobos lib
10 incursors
10 intercessors
2x 5 sniper Scouts
2x 5 bolter Scouts
3x Invictor
3x landspeeder typhoon
2x eliminator
2x thunderfire
I mean I feel like if you drop the typhoons and switch the chars that army works better as RG. But I havent won any tournaments since 5th ed so I could be wrong
I really wonder why they just gave IH so much stuff. Their trait gives the most bonuses at 3 and the doctrine also gives 2 bonuses while also being online right at the start. Cant help but feel the designers didnt take a moment to look at the big picture. It's like you look at everything they get and then it's like, "Oh, AND they overwatch on 5+." Or, "Oh, AND they reroll 1s for heavy weapons." Just a pile of bonuses that never seems to end.
Just to be clear I'm not trying to jump on the IH hate bandwagon, these are just some thoughts I've had in my head since they came out and haven't bothered putting them to paper (or online forum in this case). This is meant to be more of a look at why the rules people do what they do. It's not like there haven't been super hard to deal with armies in the past. Not that that excuses whenever the pop up again.
I just hope that if GW does adress the apparent.... controversy (I hesitate to say issue or problem just yet) that they dont run into the Bobby G problem where they need to nerf all marines to stop the one broken combo. They dont normally just take special rules away (I dont know if they've ever done so short of edition changes), but I wonder if this is the time to try that out should it end up being warranted.
The interesting thing from the lists this last weekend was like half didn't use the IH traits, they did successor, several didn't use Fierros, and a bunch didn't use Executioners/Flyers/Dreads. Prob too early to settle for sure on the strongest bits, but looks like those players really gravitated to the no -1 to hit and reroll 1s without an aura part the most.
And really, this does seem the worst even without being as blatantly crazy as the Ironstone. Not only does it make IH vehicles and flyers good, which is I assume what they wanted, but it also makes units like snipers better as IH than as say RG, which is silly. Even if you assume you deployed so perfectly that you don't have to move the snipers for -1 (which is obviously not always going to happen), the IH are still getting all those reroll 1s no other infantry chapter gets as all those scouts and eliminators are spread out and lacking auras. Not to mention better speeders and attack bikes than the mobile chapters.
And yeah, if they boost all marine points to try to fix IH or the rumored upcoming chapters, well, there goes anyone playing UM, WS, or RG ever again.
RG players, are there any failings of Assault Centurions that you can see. Any bad match ups where they cant make up for their cost?
If you go first, Master of Ambush them. If you go second Strike from the Shadows (and they get to benefit from tactical doctrines in t2).
Im also bringing Aggressors in my list and to some extent they overlap and have the same issues. I just dont know if committing to Centurion purchase is wise without proper testing or feedback.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: My issue with Attack Bikes is the Heavy Bolter being such a dinky weapon on the move for them. You get 1.5 shots on average, which is sometimes 1 shot a turn! The TL Bolter can help make up for it but not by a lot.
The neat thing with the Taratulas is that they're averaging 3 hits a turn, and can't be tied up. You'd be often surprised when even Vet players try to charge them and fail to kill it, and then it spits out more shots again.
Precious few ways for you to get to somewhere you need to go in that list, which was why I suggested the mobility. The biggest issues I have with the Tarantulas are that they're completely immobile and can't shoot at what you want. I'd take a single heavy bolter hitting on 3s and 4 Bolter shots over the twin HB hitting on 4s and never able to target a vehicle.
But that's all just on paper. Are you going to use the list once the supplement is out? I'd love to hear your initial experiences.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: My issue with Attack Bikes is the Heavy Bolter being such a dinky weapon on the move for them. You get 1.5 shots on average, which is sometimes 1 shot a turn! The TL Bolter can help make up for it but not by a lot.
The neat thing with the Taratulas is that they're averaging 3 hits a turn, and can't be tied up. You'd be often surprised when even Vet players try to charge them and fail to kill it, and then it spits out more shots again.
Precious few ways for you to get to somewhere you need to go in that list, which was why I suggested the mobility. The biggest issues I have with the Tarantulas are that they're completely immobile and can't shoot at what you want. I'd take a single heavy bolter hitting on 3s and 4 Bolter shots over the twin HB hitting on 4s and never able to target a vehicle.
But that's all just on paper. Are you going to use the list once the supplement is out? I'd love to hear your initial experiences.
I've did a couple of test games testing out mostly the Super Doctrine as I haven't really done much with the Relics in there, and I do want to experiment with the Warlord traits. That bonus against Characters? I didn't feel as much a need for a terrible amount of anti-tank as the best tanks are, well, Knights. I might have to change my tune with Iron Hands though as some of us correctly called Repulsors becoming a problem.
Smirrors wrote: RG players, are there any failings of Assault Centurions that you can see. Any bad match ups where they cant make up for their cost?
If you go first, Master of Ambush them. If you go second Strike from the Shadows (and they get to benefit from tactical doctrines in t2).
Im also bringing Aggressors in my list and to some extent they overlap and have the same issues. I just dont know if committing to Centurion purchase is wise without proper testing or feedback.
They are fairly slow. I think they will suffer somewhat in mirror matches where neither side wants to set up a traditional force and whoever sets their units on the table first loses. I also think that they need a chaplain babysitter for the 6 inch consolidate. As tough as they are, they will attract huge amounts of firepower if they can't wrap a unit. They could very well be vulnerable to beatstick characters hiding behind the screen. I haven't tested very extensively yet.
Smirrors wrote: RG players, are there any failings of Assault Centurions that you can see. Any bad match ups where they cant make up for their cost?
If you go first, Master of Ambush them. If you go second Strike from the Shadows (and they get to benefit from tactical doctrines in t2).
Im also bringing Aggressors in my list and to some extent they overlap and have the same issues. I just dont know if committing to Centurion purchase is wise without proper testing or feedback.
I'd wait to draw conclusions until a month or so after the Infiltrator/Incursor box sets come out. I think that Infiltrator Omni-scramblers are going to change the deepstrike meta.
Omni-scramblers won't affect Master of Ambush, but Strike from the Shadows won't be able to get models in flamer range--even with the successor +3".
Just checking, but you know that Chaplain's +2 charge doesn't stack with anything right? Otherwise, I haven't seen a way to get +3 charge and would be interested!
bmsattler wrote: So hypothetical question for Iron Hands types. How are you planning on dealing with Genestealer lists? Nasty units that show up out of nowhere and whollop you hard enough to guarantee they can kill one or two units when they do.
5+ overwatch with full re-rolls. 4+ if needed. Omni-scramblers pushing back deepstrike and fly to move out of combat and shoot more.
The key is in having enough shots to deal with things as they come down without diluting your other matchups to much.
This strategy assumes the Genestealer player isn't able to charge from behind buildings, launch characters who ignore overwatch at you, or charge nonthreatening targets and then consolidate into threatening ones to neutralize your shooting for a turn.
You can't rely on just omni-scramblers and overwatch. Make sure you have screens, and make sure those screens stay far, far away from your actual valuable units so that they can't be consolidated out of in a way that hurts you.
Smirrors wrote: RG players, are there any failings of Assault Centurions that you can see. Any bad match ups where they cant make up for their cost?
If you go first, Master of Ambush them. If you go second Strike from the Shadows (and they get to benefit from tactical doctrines in t2).
Im also bringing Aggressors in my list and to some extent they overlap and have the same issues. I just dont know if committing to Centurion purchase is wise without proper testing or feedback.
I'd wait to draw conclusions until a month or so after the Infiltrator/Incursor box sets come out. I think that Infiltrator Omni-scramblers are going to change the deepstrike meta.
Omni-scramblers won't affect Master of Ambush, but Strike from the Shadows won't be able to get models in flamer range--even with the successor +3".
we've had infiltrators around for awhile now, they're just kinda expensive unless you KNOW you're fighting deep strikers
bmsattler wrote: Just checking, but you know that Chaplain's +2 charge doesn't stack with anything right? Otherwise, I haven't seen a way to get +3 charge and would be interested!
I think Blood Angels have a way to get +3” to charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: [edit]
Blood Angels have a librarian power that adds 3” to charge rolls. They also have a stratagem that allows them to roll 3d6 for charging instead of 2d6.
Smirrors wrote: RG players, are there any failings of Assault Centurions that you can see. Any bad match ups where they cant make up for their cost?
If you go first, Master of Ambush them. If you go second Strike from the Shadows (and they get to benefit from tactical doctrines in t2).
Im also bringing Aggressors in my list and to some extent they overlap and have the same issues. I just dont know if committing to Centurion purchase is wise without proper testing or feedback.
I'd wait to draw conclusions until a month or so after the Infiltrator/Incursor box sets come out. I think that Infiltrator Omni-scramblers are going to change the deepstrike meta.
Omni-scramblers won't affect Master of Ambush, but Strike from the Shadows won't be able to get models in flamer range--even with the successor +3".
we've had infiltrators around for awhile now, they're just kinda expensive unless you KNOW you're fighting deep strikers
I personally don’t have infiltrators, although I’d like to have some, because they’re not available outside of Shadowspear or eBay. Also I personally haven’t seen anybody fielding infiltrators.
But I have been seeing more and more space marine successor netlists that depend on deepstriking within 9” in order to use 11” range flamers. If those lists become prevalent about the time that infiltrators become available as a box, I predict we’ll see a lot more infiltrators. They’re 4-5 points more per model than intercessors, but two units of five can block off your whole deployment zone, not just against GSC, but against anything that wants to drop & charge or drop and flame.
Even those BA3d6+3 drop-charges will be negated, since you can’t even declare a charge outside of 12”
Didn't the Infiltrator box just get announced as being available for preorder this Sat?
I'm trying to design my RG list on the assumption I'm not charging until turn 2+ no matter what, that even winning first turn I'll be too screened out to build a list around. But the later you plan to charge anyways, the less useful all those infiltrate up RG strats are and the more appealing any other chapter becomes.
bort wrote: Didn't the Infiltrator box just get announced as being available for preorder this Sat?
I'm trying to design my RG list on the assumption I'm not charging until turn 2+ no matter what, that even winning first turn I'll be too screened out to build a list around. But the later you plan to charge anyways, the less useful all those infiltrate up RG strats are and the more appealing any other chapter becomes.
it did yes. Also rumor has it we'll get a start collecting Space Marien Vanguard Box in december, so supressors may become easier to get
bort wrote: Didn't the Infiltrator box just get announced as being available for preorder this Sat?
I'm trying to design my RG list on the assumption I'm not charging until turn 2+ no matter what, that even winning first turn I'll be too screened out to build a list around. But the later you plan to charge anyways, the less useful all those infiltrate up RG strats are and the more appealing any other chapter becomes.
If you want to charge T1, you'd have to go White Scars. Although Black Templars can actually do okay out of Deep Strike now so it's an option.
I'm trying to design my RG list on the assumption I'm not charging until turn 2+ no matter what, that even winning first turn I'll be too screened out to build a list around. But the later you plan to charge anyways, the less useful all those infiltrate up RG strats are and the more appealing any other chapter becomes.
So Infiltrate gets replaced by Strike from the Skies i presume?
Like you said if you aren't going to be in the opponents face you are losing some of RG uniqueness. So much of it will be dependent on terrain I think. RG will want to grab the middle of the battlefield and never let it go.
I’m not sure if infiltrators are the best screening unit we have any more. We’ve got impulsors and stormhawks now.
Infiltrators are fantastic against stuff like GSC of course. They’re a lot less good against a conventional horde, which is likely to wrap and trap them. But you just can’t do that with an impulsor or a stormhawk - it’ll just fly away. It’ll almost certainly be on it’s top bracket if it’s Iron Hands, or else it’ll be dead and out of the picture. I think only the Slaanesh mirror thing can prevent it from falling back.
In any case I don’t see how RG - or any kind of reserve schenanigans-based list, can make it into a properly constructed IH army.
I didn’t realise how good an IH impulsor is as a combat vehicle. With the stubbers on it has 17 S4 shots. 9 of those are ap-2 and 6 get +1 to hit and wound anything that flies. That’s for 90 points on a dedicated transport with -2” charges against it. It’s a great little vehicle.
BrianDavion wrote: well if you just need a forward deployed unit, any unit. you're better off using scouts.
Scouts are an inadequate screening unit vs GSC. They have a strat to let them deploy 3” away, plus another to let them fire in the movement phase. They can combo these to deploy 20 hand flamer guys in a line and kill your entire screen immediately, letting them set up the rest of their units where they want.
Infiltrators in cover, tanks and planes are very difficult to remove with hand flamers, so this approach doesn’t work. In fact infiltrators specifically counter the 3” deployment thing, making hand flamers useless. Against vehicles the flamers need a 6 to wound so they generally aren’t good enough.
Does anyone know if GW ever fixed the goofy issue with 1+ armor saves effectively granting a 2++? If not, RG could build an entire list out of Centurions and Eliminators and Termies that would be insanely durable for the first turn or two.
The Newman wrote: Does anyone know if GW ever fixed the goofy issue with 1+ armor saves effectively granting a 2++? If not, RG could build an entire list out of Centurions and Eliminators and Termies that would be insanely durable for the first turn or two.
I'm not sure what you mean. A 1+ armour save really only means they get the equivalent of a 2++ against AP-1, right?
bort wrote: Didn't the Infiltrator box just get announced as being available for preorder this Sat?
I'm trying to design my RG list on the assumption I'm not charging until turn 2+ no matter what, that even winning first turn I'll be too screened out to build a list around. But the later you plan to charge anyways, the less useful all those infiltrate up RG strats are and the more appealing any other chapter becomes.
If you want to charge T1, you'd have to go White Scars. Although Black Templars can actually do okay out of Deep Strike now so it's an option.
I believe RG can get a charge first turn, at least some of the time, by using the Master of Ambush WL trait, or the Infiltrators strat on units that are already deployed forward, or by using the Swift and Deadly WL trait, especially with bikes that can advance 20" and then assault. Or all of these in combinations. The Raven's Blade strat and Strike from the Skies give them bonuses and rerolls to help get in turn 1.
The Newman wrote: Does anyone know if GW ever fixed the goofy issue with 1+ armor saves effectively granting a 2++? If not, RG could build an entire list out of Centurions and Eliminators and Termies that would be insanely durable for the first turn or two.
I'm not sure what you mean. A 1+ armour save really only means they get the equivalent of a 2++ against AP-1, right?
This came up when the Ork codex dropped:
- An armor save roll is "match or beat X"
- A roll may not be modified below 1
- A natural 1 always fails.
A 1+ saving throw cannot be modified to less than the armor value, therefore only a natural 1 fails.
(Of course, that only matters here if cover modifies the Armor Save and not the armor save roll. I'm probably remembering that incorrectly.)
If you have a 0+ save (which oblits can get) and are hit by an ap0,AP-1or ap-2 the result is the same. A 1 always fails so 0+ save and roll a 1 take a wound. Same with ap-2, turns it into a 2+ save and only a one fails. This isn't the same as a 2++ save even though the same result happens of only 1's fail. Hit them with AP-4 and that's a 4+ save. Not the same as 2++.....
Azuza001 wrote: If you have a 0+ save (which oblits can get) and are hit by an ap0,AP-1or ap-2 the result is the same. A 1 always fails so 0+ save and roll a 1 take a wound. Same with ap-2, turns it into a 2+ save and only a one fails. This isn't the same as a 2++ save even though the same result happens of only 1's fail. Hit them with AP-4 and that's a 4+ save. Not the same as 2++.....
By raw:
You have 1+ save. You roll 2 with -1 AP. 2=1. You have 1+ save ergo you passed. 1 auto fails only when roll is natural 1.
Roll 2 vs -4 weapon? 2-4=-2. As per rulebook faq less than 1 becomes 1. Modified 1 is not automatic fail, you have 1+ save=pass.
So yes strictly speaking RAW 1+ save IS 2++ because you only fail on natural 1. Any roll that is modified below 1 becomes 1 and as you have 1+ save it's pass...
Stupid? Yes. Illogical? Yes. Meganobz also got but rather than fix the rule they just prevented meganobz getting 1+ save as if 1+ save(without it being 2++ in effect) would have been that broken. So end result technically if you play strictly RAW if you can get 1+(or even lower) save you literally only fail on natural roll of 1...
Gee thanks GW! And they were even TOLD what the issue is and they fixed it in wrong way. By preventing one specific unit from getting 1+ save. GW never considers GENERAL solution but just considers individual answer so same effect from stratagem and psychic spell can work differently because faq only specified answer for stratagem...
Interesting IH nerfs...definitely hurts the triple castle, but still leaves IH flyers intact. So the vehicle chapter got all it’s tank vehicles nerfed some, but their sniper infantry, speeders, and air power are still the best among marines? Oookay.
Iron Hands shouldn't suck, they shouldn't be overpowered either. This seems to fix a fair number of the problems people had. Works for me.
Also glad that we get to keep our heavy infantry infiltrators for Raven Guard. I was concerned that my newly-purchased and painted centurions wouldn't be useful in the role I intended.
bort wrote: Interesting IH nerfs...definitely hurts the triple castle, but still leaves IH flyers intact. So the vehicle chapter got all it’s tank vehicles nerfed some, but their sniper infantry, speeders, and air power are still the best among marines? Oookay.
They really should have nerfed the super doctrine...IMO it was the biggest issue. Ironstone was number 2. Character dreads 3....They fixed two of those...Not sure why Iron Hands have the most mobile vehicles....
The IH nerfs help for sure. Even the flyer lists cant castle around the iron stone if they get second turn now. Also heavily rumored that CA will nerf fliers to 3 total so that would help tone that list down too
Azuza001 wrote: If you have a 0+ save (which oblits can get) and are hit by an ap0,AP-1or ap-2 the result is the same. A 1 always fails so 0+ save and roll a 1 take a wound. Same with ap-2, turns it into a 2+ save and only a one fails. This isn't the same as a 2++ save even though the same result happens of only 1's fail. Hit them with AP-4 and that's a 4+ save. Not the same as 2++.....
By raw:
You have 1+ save. You roll 2 with -1 AP. 2=1. You have 1+ save ergo you passed. 1 auto fails only when roll is natural 1.
Roll 2 vs -4 weapon? 2-4=-2. As per rulebook faq less than 1 becomes 1. Modified 1 is not automatic fail, you have 1+ save=pass.
So yes strictly speaking RAW 1+ save IS 2++ because you only fail on natural 1. Any roll that is modified below 1 becomes 1 and as you have 1+ save it's pass...
Stupid? Yes. Illogical? Yes. Meganobz also got but rather than fix the rule they just prevented meganobz getting 1+ save as if 1+ save(without it being 2++ in effect) would have been that broken. So end result technically if you play strictly RAW if you can get 1+(or even lower) save you literally only fail on natural roll of 1...
Gee thanks GW! And they were even TOLD what the issue is and they fixed it in wrong way. By preventing one specific unit from getting 1+ save. GW never considers GENERAL solution but just considers individual answer so same effect from stratagem and psychic spell can work differently because faq only specified answer for stratagem...
Exactly.
Of course it's irrelevant for SM because cover modifies the save roll rather than the stat, which is probably just as well with the volume of 2+ saves we have.
Azuza001 wrote: If you have a 0+ save (which oblits can get) and are hit by an ap0,AP-1or ap-2 the result is the same. A 1 always fails so 0+ save and roll a 1 take a wound. Same with ap-2, turns it into a 2+ save and only a one fails. This isn't the same as a 2++ save even though the same result happens of only 1's fail. Hit them with AP-4 and that's a 4+ save. Not the same as 2++.....
By raw:
You have 1+ save. You roll 2 with -1 AP. 2=1. You have 1+ save ergo you passed. 1 auto fails only when roll is natural 1.
Roll 2 vs -4 weapon? 2-4=-2. As per rulebook faq less than 1 becomes 1. Modified 1 is not automatic fail, you have 1+ save=pass.
So yes strictly speaking RAW 1+ save IS 2++ because you only fail on natural 1. Any roll that is modified below 1 becomes 1 and as you have 1+ save it's pass...
Stupid? Yes. Illogical? Yes. Meganobz also got but rather than fix the rule they just prevented meganobz getting 1+ save as if 1+ save(without it being 2++ in effect) would have been that broken. So end result technically if you play strictly RAW if you can get 1+(or even lower) save you literally only fail on natural roll of 1...
Gee thanks GW! And they were even TOLD what the issue is and they fixed it in wrong way. By preventing one specific unit from getting 1+ save. GW never considers GENERAL solution but just considers individual answer so same effect from stratagem and psychic spell can work differently because faq only specified answer for stratagem...
You summed up my thoughts when this was pointed out when ork codex came out! (btw good caveat on above. Modifier needs to modify save stat. Not give + modifier to save like cover does). But RAW what I said is 100% correct. I very much doubt intentional and GW sort of agreed when they removed in roundabout way from meganobz but they didn't remove it universally for future. So if there is another way to modify save stat to 1+ or better this still works until GW hits the fix hammer again(likely doing another only this unit fix ala meganobz rather than global fix...)
I was at first "no way that can work" when ork codex came out and this became hulabaloo with idea of meganobz and loot it stratagem but logic was indisputable in RAW...So for about 2 weeks or so some really did play like that it seems in competive tournaments. Thankfully logic sort of prevailed then.
But highlights how GW has rather annoying habit of answering only specific question which are invariably specific to one case without doing general use case. And as such we end up with very specific answers so that even if rule is identical elsewhere doesn't mean FAQ entry covers it(auspex scan had such a thing before as well)
You summed up my thoughts when this was pointed out when ork codex came out! (btw good caveat on above. Modifier needs to modify save stat. Not give + modifier to save like cover does). But RAW what I said is 100% correct. I very much doubt intentional and GW sort of agreed when they removed in roundabout way from meganobz but they didn't remove it universally for future. So if there is another way to modify save stat to 1+ or better this still works until GW hits the fix hammer again(likely doing another only this unit fix ala meganobz rather than global fix...)
I was at first "no way that can work" when ork codex came out and this became hulabaloo with idea of meganobz and loot it stratagem but logic was indisputable in RAW...So for about 2 weeks or so some really did play like that it seems in competive tournaments. Thankfully logic sort of prevailed then.
But highlights how GW has rather annoying habit of answering only specific question which are invariably specific to one case without doing general use case. And as such we end up with very specific answers so that even if rule is identical elsewhere doesn't mean FAQ entry covers it(auspex scan had such a thing before as well)
Perhaps the questions they receive are poorly worded. I've been guilty of that myself.
I sent a question about the Imperial Fists interaction with Infiltrators and rejoiced at the response.
Until it was removed and I kept thinking maybe if I just worded the question better...
Azuza001 wrote: If you have a 0+ save (which oblits can get) and are hit by an ap0,AP-1or ap-2 the result is the same. A 1 always fails so 0+ save and roll a 1 take a wound. Same with ap-2, turns it into a 2+ save and only a one fails. This isn't the same as a 2++ save even though the same result happens of only 1's fail. Hit them with AP-4 and that's a 4+ save. Not the same as 2++.....
By raw:
You have 1+ save. You roll 2 with -1 AP. 2=1. You have 1+ save ergo you passed. 1 auto fails only when roll is natural 1.
Roll 2 vs -4 weapon? 2-4=-2. As per rulebook faq less than 1 becomes 1. Modified 1 is not automatic fail, you have 1+ save=pass.
So yes strictly speaking RAW 1+ save IS 2++ because you only fail on natural 1. Any roll that is modified below 1 becomes 1 and as you have 1+ save it's pass...
Stupid? Yes. Illogical? Yes. Meganobz also got but rather than fix the rule they just prevented meganobz getting 1+ save as if 1+ save(without it being 2++ in effect) would have been that broken. So end result technically if you play strictly RAW if you can get 1+(or even lower) save you literally only fail on natural roll of 1...
Gee thanks GW! And they were even TOLD what the issue is and they fixed it in wrong way. By preventing one specific unit from getting 1+ save. GW never considers GENERAL solution but just considers individual answer so same effect from stratagem and psychic spell can work differently because faq only specified answer for stratagem...
Azuza001 wrote: If you have a 0+ save (which oblits can get) and are hit by an ap0,AP-1or ap-2 the result is the same. A 1 always fails so 0+ save and roll a 1 take a wound. Same with ap-2, turns it into a 2+ save and only a one fails. This isn't the same as a 2++ save even though the same result happens of only 1's fail. Hit them with AP-4 and that's a 4+ save. Not the same as 2++.....
By raw:
You have 1+ save. You roll 2 with -1 AP. 2=1. You have 1+ save ergo you passed. 1 auto fails only when roll is natural 1.
Roll 2 vs -4 weapon? 2-4=-2. As per rulebook faq less than 1 becomes 1. Modified 1 is not automatic fail, you have 1+ save=pass.
So yes strictly speaking RAW 1+ save IS 2++ because you only fail on natural 1. Any roll that is modified below 1 becomes 1 and as you have 1+ save it's pass...
Stupid? Yes. Illogical? Yes. Meganobz also got but rather than fix the rule they just prevented meganobz getting 1+ save as if 1+ save(without it being 2++ in effect) would have been that broken. So end result technically if you play strictly RAW if you can get 1+(or even lower) save you literally only fail on natural roll of 1...
Gee thanks GW! And they were even TOLD what the issue is and they fixed it in wrong way. By preventing one specific unit from getting 1+ save. GW never considers GENERAL solution but just considers individual answer so same effect from stratagem and psychic spell can work differently because faq only specified answer for stratagem...
But not by RAI. And it's an absurd result.
Its the sort of stuff people that don't actually play the game come up with because in a tournament the judge is going to tell you to feth off and in a casual setting people will pack up their army and never play you again.
Azuza001 wrote: If you have a 0+ save (which oblits can get) and are hit by an ap0,AP-1or ap-2 the result is the same. A 1 always fails so 0+ save and roll a 1 take a wound. Same with ap-2, turns it into a 2+ save and only a one fails. This isn't the same as a 2++ save even though the same result happens of only 1's fail. Hit them with AP-4 and that's a 4+ save. Not the same as 2++.....
By raw:
You have 1+ save. You roll 2 with -1 AP. 2=1. You have 1+ save ergo you passed. 1 auto fails only when roll is natural 1.
Roll 2 vs -4 weapon? 2-4=-2. As per rulebook faq less than 1 becomes 1. Modified 1 is not automatic fail, you have 1+ save=pass.
So yes strictly speaking RAW 1+ save IS 2++ because you only fail on natural 1. Any roll that is modified below 1 becomes 1 and as you have 1+ save it's pass...
Stupid? Yes. Illogical? Yes. Meganobz also got but rather than fix the rule they just prevented meganobz getting 1+ save as if 1+ save(without it being 2++ in effect) would have been that broken. So end result technically if you play strictly RAW if you can get 1+(or even lower) save you literally only fail on natural roll of 1...
Gee thanks GW! And they were even TOLD what the issue is and they fixed it in wrong way. By preventing one specific unit from getting 1+ save. GW never considers GENERAL solution but just considers individual answer so same effect from stratagem and psychic spell can work differently because faq only specified answer for stratagem...
But not by RAI. And it's an absurd result.
Its the sort of stuff people that don't actually play the game come up with because in a tournament the judge is going to tell you to feth off and in a casual setting people will pack up their army and never play you again.
But how else can people go “ha gotchya!” To gw? Like gw does plenty wrong, let’s not find bs reasons to yell at them. It’s just silly
How is it a hey gotcha to gw? Its not going to bother the company one bit, but it's going to really bother your opponent. Who are you really bothering with this kind of play?
bort wrote: Interesting IH nerfs...definitely hurts the triple castle, but still leaves IH flyers intact. So the vehicle chapter got all it’s tank vehicles nerfed some, but their sniper infantry, speeders, and air power are still the best among marines? Oookay.
They really should have nerfed the super doctrine...IMO it was the biggest issue. Ironstone was number 2. Character dreads 3....They fixed two of those...Not sure why Iron Hands have the most mobile vehicles....
If they lost their super doctrine they would lose most of their competitive edge.
IH have the most mobile vehicles because their love of machines make them more accurate. Both machine spirits and bionics to make them more accurate. Its easy enough to justify.
Flyers are also easy enough to deal with, no crazy neg modifiers and more durable but not unkillable.
Even Leviathan which can still receive the IS buff but can't be healed so quickly makes it killable.
The fact that Ferrios is not an autopick means healing the leviathan is not always an option.
So I heard IH were nerfed to the ground and weren't competitive anymore because of some whiners ? What exactly happened ? As usually, the nerfs aren't exactly that bad, are they ?
godardc wrote: So I heard IH were nerfed to the ground and weren't competitive anymore because of some whiners ? What exactly happened ? As usually, the nerfs aren't exactly that bad, are they ?
Clustering powerful vehicles, mostly Repulsor Executioner, around Feirros & Ironstone for invul, stacking buffs/healing has been totally invalidated.
Some of the stratagems' command point cost has risen, although I am not sure these stratagems were the worst offenders.
However, retaining the "super" doctrine(i.e. no penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons and re-rolling 1's for heavy weapons) does leave an element of competitiveness for IH.
Overall, I am content with the changes except for the nerf on Souls of Iron and Optimal Repulsion Doctrines stratagems.
My only gripe is that the nerfs were a bit too hastily applied.
Imperial Fists and Salamanders supplements have not been released yet, and so are Aeldari rules from Psychic Awakening.
The latter especially worries me as it makes already formidable Aeldari flyers even more devastating.
There are also several other factions to be released soon, including Sisters of the Battle and if we count White Dwarf material Sisters of Silence and the Inquisition.
Not that I veto nerfs on Iron Hands, but applying balance changes after the new meta has settled would have resulted in less turbulent changes.
What if upcoming space marine supplements, or Aeldari rules, or any other faction happened to be powerful enough to shake the meta?
There is a limit to applying rules changes each time a supplement is released.
That being said, any of you reading my comments are free to dismiss them should the future meta prove to be more varied than pre-nerf Iron Hands meta.
In fact, that would be the most ideal case as I do not want to see another outlier of the meta simply replacing Iron Hands.(e.g. Aeldari flyers after Psychic Awakening)
That being said, any of you reading my comments are free to dismiss them should the future meta prove to be more varied than pre-nerf Iron Hands meta.
In fact, that would be the most ideal case as I do not want to see another outlier of the meta simply replacing Iron Hands.(e.g. Aeldari flyers after Psychic Awakening)
You know the cancer on the ass if the 40k meta that is eldar flyer spam? Yeah they got buffed in the new book.
Rakdarian wrote: You know the cancer on the ass if the 40k meta that is eldar flyer spam? Yeah they got buffed in the new book.
I will be playing a 2,000 Points game against the new Aeldari Flyer heavy list tomorrow, with my Iron Hands.
Although I will have to play several games to fully realise their potentials, I hope my concerns are misguided.
You know the cancer on the ass if the 40k meta that is eldar flyer spam? Yeah they got buffed in the new book.
IH -1 to damage, 5++ and healing Orgy was way worse then eldar flyer spam. Imo. Using those auras and a Stratgem to make "most" damage turn to 1-2 was absolute spank. E.g. 6 damage would round down to 3 damage and then down to 2 damage. Or 4 damage would round down to 2 and then to 1.
Eldar flyer spam may be hard to hit and deal with if you don't focus fire but making Anti-tank weapons like the Necron Doomsday arks Cannon do the same damage as a Necron Gauss array is fething stupid. I'm Glade Gw fixed this cause it was broken af.
Also, before Raven guard and Iron hands got their supplements. Ultramarines and White scars got their FAQs as well. I'm going to assume that by CA19 (November/December) all new eldar, Marine and sister codexs/books will all be FaQs.
This IH nerfing is a prime example as to why you shouldn't jump the new bandwagon straight away when GW release new stuff and should wait for the 1st FaQ before buying 3 Executioner repulsors, Venerable dreadnoughts, Leviathan dreadnoughts etc. Instead if feeling gloomed about "wasting your money" becuase IH are now "bad".
1. Eldar Flying Circus never hit 70%+ win rate after 234 games. It still won't, even with the updates from PA.
2. CA19 is right around the corner ready to destroy all our careful plans.
3. I got nothing else, but lists of only 2 things bug people so next person who praises Dorn gets a fist bump.
Hell imperial fist stalkers are going to be nasty. 3 of them are pretty cheap and will seriously put out the pain. Anything with a heavy type, low dmg, high rate of fire, doesn't need to move will get serious work out of imperial fists.
Whirlwinds (2d6str 6 ap-1 2dmg?), stalkers, predators with heavy bolters, Razorbacks, these all become serious contenders as ih.
Azuza001 wrote: Hell imperial fist stalkers are going to be nasty. 3 of them are pretty cheap and will seriously put out the pain. Anything with a heavy type, low dmg, high rate of fire, doesn't need to move will get serious work out of imperial fists.
Whirlwinds (2d6str 6 ap-1 2dmg?), stalkers, predators with heavy bolters, Razorbacks, these all become serious contenders as ih.
Yellow is the new black.
It is going to be nerfed almost immediately so don't get too excited. All in all. This rule is more busted than the ironhands one. Ironhands just had better relics to abuse.
Against vehicles the Imperial Fists are looking to be absolutely dominant. Centurions with the MW strat are going to just delete vehicles. 6 of them alone will just destroy pretty much every vehicle that dares exist on their board.
However I don't yet see this being terribly oppressive in a tournament scene due to it really only being good against vehicles and with the recent Iron Hand nerfs those vehicles in question may not be as prominent. Heck we might just see lists avoid taking vehicles at all because they know if they draw an Imperial Fist list it's going to be a bad time.
One real big strength of the Fists though is they can build their list to be 100% high rof weapons and counter everything but monsters. All their heavy high ROF weapons will delete vehicles and infantry. I can actually see an IF going to tactical doctrine as well once they've focused down the vehicles turn 1.
I'm really interested in seeing the full details on the fists to see just what tools they do bring. I'm also not terribly sold on stalker intercessors for IF. They're going to want to stay still so lower mobility and only really damage 3 against vehicles which they honestly won't likely need to chew through to get to because all the other heavy weapons will be perfect for destroying vehicles. Unless of course you do some wacky mega intercessors build with tons of them running around with auto bolters and stalkers to just counter everything. That would be fun to see.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Against vehicles the Imperial Fists are looking to be absolutely dominant. Centurions with the MW strat are going to just delete vehicles. 6 of them alone will just destroy pretty much every vehicle that dares exist on their board.
However I don't yet see this being terribly oppressive in a tournament scene due to it really only being good against vehicles and with the recent Iron Hand nerfs those vehicles in question may not be as prominent. Heck we might just see lists avoid taking vehicles at all because they know if they draw an Imperial Fist list it's going to be a bad time.
One real big strength of the Fists though is they can build their list to be 100% high rof weapons and counter everything but monsters. All their heavy high ROF weapons will delete vehicles and infantry. I can actually see an IF going to tactical doctrine as well once they've focused down the vehicles turn 1.
I'm really interested in seeing the full details on the fists to see just what tools they do bring. I'm also not terribly sold on stalker intercessors for IF. They're going to want to stay still so lower mobility and only really damage 3 against vehicles which they honestly won't likely need to chew through to get to because all the other heavy weapons will be perfect for destroying vehicles. Unless of course you do some wacky mega intercessors build with tons of them running around with auto bolters and stalkers to just counter everything. That would be fun to see.
Yeah I agree. Having to stay immobile makes other weapons more desirable. I think just Auto Bolt rifle will do fine and take the most advantage of additional shots on 6's and you ignore cover with them so it's almost like being ap-1 against chaff.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Against vehicles the Imperial Fists are looking to be absolutely dominant. Centurions with the MW strat are going to just delete vehicles. 6 of them alone will just destroy pretty much every vehicle that dares exist on their board.
However I don't yet see this being terribly oppressive in a tournament scene due to it really only being good against vehicles and with the recent Iron Hand nerfs those vehicles in question may not be as prominent. Heck we might just see lists avoid taking vehicles at all because they know if they draw an Imperial Fist list it's going to be a bad time.
One real big strength of the Fists though is they can build their list to be 100% high rof weapons and counter everything but monsters. All their heavy high ROF weapons will delete vehicles and infantry. I can actually see an IF going to tactical doctrine as well once they've focused down the vehicles turn 1.
I'm really interested in seeing the full details on the fists to see just what tools they do bring. I'm also not terribly sold on stalker intercessors for IF. They're going to want to stay still so lower mobility and only really damage 3 against vehicles which they honestly won't likely need to chew through to get to because all the other heavy weapons will be perfect for destroying vehicles. Unless of course you do some wacky mega intercessors build with tons of them running around with auto bolters and stalkers to just counter everything. That would be fun to see.
Yeah I agree. Having to stay immobile makes other weapons more desirable. I think just Auto Bolt rifle will do fine and take the most advantage of additional shots on 6's and you ignore cover with them so it's almost like being ap-1 against chaff.
Yeah 100% my thinking as well. Theory list I have is a really heavy tactical doctrine focused list with a 6 block of centurions to focus on vehicles. I'm willing to bet there will be a start to make a unit act as if it were the dev doctrine so even if I do go tactical doctrine the centurions will keep blasting away against the remains of turn one vehicle abuse simulator. Counter of course being getting tagged in combat, but infiltrators and a phobos captain will go a long way in being an insurance policy in that regard.
I guess after the Castellan nerf GW decided they needed another way to make it unviable to take medium vehicles...
If IF get even passable strats I’m going to have a really hard time resisting playing as them since my lists tend to revolve around mass shots already.
You know the cancer on the ass if the 40k meta that is eldar flyer spam? Yeah they got buffed in the new book.
IH -1 to damage, 5++ and healing Orgy was way worse then eldar flyer spam. Imo. Using those auras and a Stratgem to make "most" damage turn to 1-2 was absolute spank. E.g. 6 damage would round down to 3 damage and then down to 2 damage. Or 4 damage would round down to 2 and then to 1.
Eldar flyer spam may be hard to hit and deal with if you don't focus fire but making Anti-tank weapons like the Necron Doomsday arks Cannon do the same damage as a Necron Gauss array is fething stupid. I'm Glade Gw fixed this cause it was broken af.
Also, before Raven guard and Iron hands got their supplements. Ultramarines and White scars got their FAQs as well. I'm going to assume that by CA19 (November/December) all new eldar, Marine and sister codexs/books will all be FaQs.
This IH nerfing is a prime example as to why you shouldn't jump the new bandwagon straight away when GW release new stuff and should wait for the 1st FaQ before buying 3 Executioner repulsors, Venerable dreadnoughts, Leviathan dreadnoughts etc. Instead if feeling gloomed about "wasting your money" becuase IH are now "bad".
So First off, Necrons have had an even more bs rule that turns 6 damage into 0 damage. The only thing that was super unique to iron hands was their best in class healing. And the half damage trait was only on dreadnoughts.
Personally the only things i bought for my list was feirros and a squad of intercessors with stalkers. I didnt use the tanks and i already had leviathans. As far as nerfs went it was super light touch, at least for my list. I did want to make an army of charachter dreadnoughts but thats not allowed anymore. I dont think in principle the durability of IH was "Broken af" And i would have preferred waiting 3 months before making any actual balance changes. The "Nerf" i wanted to see was feirros going to 150 so that we could keep the main issue of space marine vehicles fixed. Which i dont even fething play.
The nerfs didnt actually fix the competitively performing lists, they were too early to know if those lists were actually a problem for the game as a whole. so the most "Broken" thing you can do with iron hands is basically unchanged
Is it just me, or did Leviathans get bumped up in the Iron Hands meta by the FAQ, if for no other reason than they didn't really get anything nerfing them directly?
You can now explicitly do double warlord traits, (something that was unclear before,) and the main source of durability is a generic codex stratagem that wasn't taken away. We did lose out on double healing, dropping the most wounds we can get down to 4 (if we use a Techmarine with the healing Warlord Trait) but that's it.
Double Warlord traits is great - it means you don't have to pick between Storm of Iron and Student of History. (Or you can grab Student of History and All Flesh is Weakness if you're really worried about durability, or even Storm of Iron and All Flesh is Weakness if you're not worried about being charged.)
Waaaghpower wrote: Is it just me, or did Leviathans get bumped up in the Iron Hands meta by the FAQ, if for no other reason than they didn't really get anything nerfing them directly?
You can now explicitly do double warlord traits, (something that was unclear before,) and the main source of durability is a generic codex stratagem that wasn't taken away. We did lose out on double healing, dropping the most wounds we can get down to 4 (if we use a Techmarine with the healing Warlord Trait) but that's it.
Double Warlord traits is great - it means you don't have to pick between Storm of Iron and Student of History. (Or you can grab Student of History and All Flesh is Weakness if you're really worried about durability, or even Storm of Iron and All Flesh is Weakness if you're not worried about being charged.)
I'm really curious where the fascination with how durable you can make one leviathan comes from. He's slow, he has short range. I can kill the rest of your army while you buff your one dredd.
Waaaghpower wrote: Is it just me, or did Leviathans get bumped up in the Iron Hands meta by the FAQ, if for no other reason than they didn't really get anything nerfing them directly?
You can now explicitly do double warlord traits, (something that was unclear before,) and the main source of durability is a generic codex stratagem that wasn't taken away. We did lose out on double healing, dropping the most wounds we can get down to 4 (if we use a Techmarine with the healing Warlord Trait) but that's it.
Double Warlord traits is great - it means you don't have to pick between Storm of Iron and Student of History. (Or you can grab Student of History and All Flesh is Weakness if you're really worried about durability, or even Storm of Iron and All Flesh is Weakness if you're not worried about being charged.)
I'm really curious where the fascination with how durable you can make one leviathan comes from. He's slow, he has short range. I can kill the rest of your army while you buff your one dredd.
That's the thing - you don't actually need to buff the dread that much. 2CP at the start of the game, 1cp if you're worried about something going after him in a shooting phase, that's all it takes. The people talking about stacking a half dozen abilities and psychic powers on him were going overboard - He's got an inherent 14w, 2+4++6+++. It doesn't take that much to make him ridiculously resilient.
He's also not *that* slow or short ranged. 8" movement and 24" isn't the highest threat range ever, but it's not nothing. In ITC games with a lot of terrain on the board, it's hard to properly bring guns with 48"+ to bear anyways because of how difficult drawing LOS is.
I love the idea of having an unkillable unit in the middle of the enemy army. It gives me something to hug for a turn before wrecking even more of your army. And no, you will not get overwatch.
bmsattler wrote: I love the idea of having an unkillable unit in the middle of the enemy army. It gives me something to hug for a turn before wrecking even more of your army. And no, you will not get overwatch.
Sure, if you have one of the small handful of factions that can fall back and charge at will, you're already knee-deep in my army, and I apparently haven't had a chance to shoot at you at all - but if that's the case, having or not having a Leviathan isn't really going to make much of a difference.
Seriously, though, what kind of argument are you trying to make? "Durable units are bad because they can be used to tarpit"?! You can use *anything* to tarpit. I've seen twenty genestealers tag a squad of five scouts to avoid being shot at. The durability of the unit you're tagging doesn't matter, and the suggestion that people should forgo durable units in order to counter one specific strategy that isn't even durability-dependant is one of the silliest arguments I think I've seen on this forum.
Waaaghpower wrote: and the suggestion that people should forgo durable units in order to counter one specific strategy that isn't even durability-dependant is one of the silliest arguments I think I've seen on this forum.
I agree that's pretty silly. I didn't say it. All I'm saying is that durable units, especially those with limited melee capability and lacking the fly keyword, can be used against an opponent.
Waaaghpower wrote: and the suggestion that people should forgo durable units in order to counter one specific strategy that isn't even durability-dependant is one of the silliest arguments I think I've seen on this forum.
I agree that's pretty silly. I didn't say it. All I'm saying is that durable units, especially those with limited melee capability and lacking the fly keyword, can be used against an opponent.
Your comment, lacking in any context or anything else, is purely a criticism of bringing durable models. "I love the idea of having an unkillable unit in the middle of the enemy army" is a fairly unambiguous statement - having an unkillable unit in the middle of your opponent's army is a good thing for you. (Which, as I pointed out in the rest of my post, isn't even true. The durability is almost completely immaterial. Limited melee and lacking the Fly keyword? Yeah, those two things matter. Being durable? Not at all. You can tag pretty much anything.
Waaaghpower wrote: Is it just me, or did Leviathans get bumped up in the Iron Hands meta by the FAQ, if for no other reason than they didn't really get anything nerfing them directly?
You can now explicitly do double warlord traits, (something that was unclear before,) and the main source of durability is a generic codex stratagem that wasn't taken away. We did lose out on double healing, dropping the most wounds we can get down to 4 (if we use a Techmarine with the healing Warlord Trait) but that's it.
Double Warlord traits is great - it means you don't have to pick between Storm of Iron and Student of History. (Or you can grab Student of History and All Flesh is Weakness if you're really worried about durability, or even Storm of Iron and All Flesh is Weakness if you're not worried about being charged.)
I think the generically best traits to put on him are merciless logic. Because making stormcannons 13 shots is fething gross and I fething love it and studentbofnhostiry. Student of history gives them more game against their weaknesses and I think hero of the chapter should be used to give your ironstone charachter the 5+++
Automatically Appended Next Post: How do you guys feel about the named character exploit where if you hero of the chapter Iron father feirros, he can have any warlord trait for example adept of the omnissiah.
Personally i dont really think its all that useful for him specifcally but other charachters could have neato rules
Was there ever an official answer to if a unit has an ability that says "If they did not move in their previous movement phase" if that works on turn one if they didn't go first?
I'm pretty sure there's been a FAQ on aggressors saying that things like Auspex scan work to fire twice.
There are a couple of reviews up on youtube now showing the full rules. Check out GMG if you want.
One really interesting new strat for 2CPs lets a unit fire its bolt guns in combat. You turn all those guns into Pistol X, where X is the number of shots it normally has. Good for assault and heavy weapons - not so good for rapid fire.
So one thing this means is that normal bolt rifles aren't worth using this strat on. You may as well just use your bolt pistols really. But ABRs give you 3 shots each, and that's pretty great. Stalkers might be worth using against things with multiple wounds.
But the real news is those bolter centurions again. Tagging them in cc was the one really effective plan before. That's not going to work any more unless you're prepared to lose your unit. I guess maybe that's not such a loss in many cases - people kind of expect to lose the unit and accept it to prevent the firing.
Something I'm still not clear on is whether Crimson Fists are allowed to have a siegebreaker battalion from Vigilus. The stratagem is not copied across. It says that successors get to use Imperial Fists strats and I think that means they can do it. I'm pretty confident any other successor is allowed to, so it would be weird if Crimson Fists couldn't.
There are some other strats that improve durability. One lets you add 1 to a unit's save if it's within 3" of an objective. Another does the same if a unit's fully in cover and doesn't move. So you can have some extremely tough centurions.
And there's also a strat to give a unit +1 to wound vs a vehicle. Combine that, 2+ to hit from Garadon, all the rerolls and stuff, and a unit of 6 Centurions can pretty much drop an IK two times over.
One thing I'm quite happy about is that my Crimson Fists get their Fist of Vengeance and Duty's burden copied across. And Pedro's Arrow of Dorn has become D2, so it's a pretty respectable gun too. You can therefore have a fair number of characters who are all armed with respectable shooting weapons in a Crimson Fist army. Unfortunately Duty's Burden can't be given to an Ancient any more (which I thought it could before) as it has to replace a master-crafted gun of some kind.
I like my characters to have guns. They spend a lot of time stood around doing very little otherwise. Pedro is fairly cheap for a Chapter Master at 150, so the fact he can actually shoot a few things dead too is quite cool.
There seem to be quite a lot of different ways that you could potentially use Fists. Their infantry and vehicles are both good. I think the optimal weapon choices are actually slightly less obvious than you might think and it's not necessarily just a case of buying as many heavy bolters as you can. Weapons like autocannons, which have a decent number of shots, a better chance to wound, and more base damage, may do better overall.
So, now that all supplements are either out or can be read on the various review videos, I think that the new sleeve of rules benefitted more oldmarines than Primaris in a certain way.
What do you think it's the best chapter tactics to field lots of primaris bodies? An anchor of intercessors plus supporting units here and there.
Thinking about this a bit more, I kinda like how situational the IF trait is. Unlike with other chapters, there might actually be reason to switch out of their favoured doctrine.
Khornatedemon wrote: What did they update on the Astraeus? Not finding any changes
With the iron hands nerfs the astraeus becomes IMO a clearly superior exe!
Idk I still think it costs too much. You get 2 exe for a tiny bit less.
The difference is that an astreaues is arguably tougher to kill then 2 executioners. It has a native invuln thats improved by cover, and by a psychic power, and a better save. 32 wounds vs 24 is important, but you get the ironstone for all 24 of those wounds. and its got a 2+ save. In addition its got a great gun for taking out IH flyers and Eldar flyers which are big in the format right now
Khornatedemon wrote: What did they update on the Astraeus? Not finding any changes
With the iron hands nerfs the astraeus becomes IMO a clearly superior exe!
Idk I still think it costs too much. You get 2 exe for a tiny bit less.
The difference is that an astreaues is arguably tougher to kill then 2 executioners. It has a native invuln thats improved by cover, and by a psychic power, and a better save. 32 wounds vs 24 is important, but you get the ironstone for all 24 of those wounds. and its got a 2+ save. In addition its got a great gun for taking out IH flyers and Eldar flyers which are big in the format right now
But its 1/3 of your army to kill one flyer a turn. Probably close to half once you factor in character support. The other 5 flyers kill the rest of your army.
Khornatedemon wrote: What did they update on the Astraeus? Not finding any changes
With the iron hands nerfs the astraeus becomes IMO a clearly superior exe!
Idk I still think it costs too much. You get 2 exe for a tiny bit less.
The difference is that an astreaues is arguably tougher to kill then 2 executioners. It has a native invuln thats improved by cover, and by a psychic power, and a better save. 32 wounds vs 24 is important, but you get the ironstone for all 24 of those wounds. and its got a 2+ save. In addition its got a great gun for taking out IH flyers and Eldar flyers which are big in the format right now
But its 1/3 of your army to kill one flyer a turn. Probably close to half once you factor in character support. The other 5 flyers kill the rest of your army.
I’m fairly sure with Lieutenant rerolls, with feirros acting as 3(4) heals a turn it’s not quite that bad. And I’m fairly sure the main gun by itself can kill a flyer a turn. There’s a lot more gun on that
Khornatedemon wrote: What did they update on the Astraeus? Not finding any changes
With the iron hands nerfs the astraeus becomes IMO a clearly superior exe!
Idk I still think it costs too much. You get 2 exe for a tiny bit less.
The difference is that an astreaues is arguably tougher to kill then 2 executioners. It has a native invuln thats improved by cover, and by a psychic power, and a better save. 32 wounds vs 24 is important, but you get the ironstone for all 24 of those wounds. and its got a 2+ save. In addition its got a great gun for taking out IH flyers and Eldar flyers which are big in the format right now
But its 1/3 of your army to kill one flyer a turn. Probably close to half once you factor in character support. The other 5 flyers kill the rest of your army.
I’m fairly sure with Lieutenant rerolls, with feirros acting as 3(4) heals a turn it’s not quite that bad. And I’m fairly sure the main gun by itself can kill a flyer a turn. There’s a lot more gun on that
A twin heavy bolter and 2 24" range lascannons. The low range probably means they dont hit anything turn 1 at least unless your putting it right on the line. I still dont see it being worth it. It's a castellan that does less dmg.
Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.
The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.
He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.
So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.
Mandragola wrote: Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.
The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.
He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.
So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.
Better show that off when you're done.
Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.
Mandragola wrote: Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.
The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.
He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.
So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.
Better show that off when you're done.
Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.
I don't agree with that at all. +1 to hit is often a better buff than ignoring cover. Hordes are a thing. Plaguebearers come in large numbers, with penalties to be hit, and are not in cover. I find the Crimson Fist buff at least as good as the Imperial Fist one.
And for what it's worth, the relics are also pretty great. I've had a lot of fun with the Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain - though he might see a bit less action now Pedro's so good. The relic rifle is great too - albeit something of a duplcation of the Bellicos Bolt Rifle in the main book. It can replace a Stalker rifle though, so you can take a Lieutenant to an event and go with either Duty's Burden or Lament, depending on your opponent. Or neither, to save CPs.
To be honest there isn't a lot to choose between Crimson and Imperial Fists. If Crimson Fists can't have a siegebreaker cohort then that would be a pain. As far as I can tell they should be able to, as any other Imperial Fist successor can... though I guess it would be a little odd if Black Templars could. In fact the whole thing could really do with some clarification.
Mandragola wrote: Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.
The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.
He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.
So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.
Better show that off when you're done.
Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.
I don't agree with that at all. +1 to hit is often a better buff than ignoring cover. Hordes are a thing. Plaguebearers come in large numbers, with penalties to be hit, and are not in cover. I find the Crimson Fist buff at least as good as the Imperial Fist one.
And for what it's worth, the relics are also pretty great. I've had a lot of fun with the Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain - though he might see a bit less action now Pedro's so good. The relic rifle is great too - albeit something of a duplcation of the Bellicos Bolt Rifle in the main book. It can replace a Stalker rifle though, so you can take a Lieutenant to an event and go with either Duty's Burden or Lament, depending on your opponent. Or neither, to save CPs.
To be honest there isn't a lot to choose between Crimson and Imperial Fists. If Crimson Fists can't have a siegebreaker cohort then that would be a pain. As far as I can tell they should be able to, as any other Imperial Fist successor can... though I guess it would be a little odd if Black Templars could. In fact the whole thing could really do with some clarification.
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
Mandragola wrote: Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.
The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.
He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.
So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.
Better show that off when you're done.
Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.
I don't agree with that at all. +1 to hit is often a better buff than ignoring cover. Hordes are a thing. Plaguebearers come in large numbers, with penalties to be hit, and are not in cover. I find the Crimson Fist buff at least as good as the Imperial Fist one.
And for what it's worth, the relics are also pretty great. I've had a lot of fun with the Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain - though he might see a bit less action now Pedro's so good. The relic rifle is great too - albeit something of a duplcation of the Bellicos Bolt Rifle in the main book. It can replace a Stalker rifle though, so you can take a Lieutenant to an event and go with either Duty's Burden or Lament, depending on your opponent. Or neither, to save CPs.
To be honest there isn't a lot to choose between Crimson and Imperial Fists. If Crimson Fists can't have a siegebreaker cohort then that would be a pain. As far as I can tell they should be able to, as any other Imperial Fist successor can... though I guess it would be a little odd if Black Templars could. In fact the whole thing could really do with some clarification.
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
It really doesn't rely on that. It's a situational bonus. So is ignoring cover. It's true that ignoring cover will probably come up more often than +1 to hit, but personally I think the hit bonus is more impactful.
A lot of high-performing armies feature big units. We're still in something of a horde meta. Being able to hit plaguebearers really helps.
Generally, the IF bonus is going to help you clear things like back field objectives. That's clearly a very useful thing. The CF bonus tends to help against front line stuff like ork boyz, daemons, cultists (who are probably not a thing any more to be fair) and guard. Some Eldar builds are fielding large units now too.
And the fist of Vengeance really helps a lot. You're probably playing a kind of gunline. Having your captain not just give rerolls but also pop out and smash a knight is seriously good. An IF gunline is a bit less able to punch back if the enemy gets to them.
Mandragola wrote: Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.
The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.
He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.
So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.
Better show that off when you're done.
Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.
I don't agree with that at all. +1 to hit is often a better buff than ignoring cover. Hordes are a thing. Plaguebearers come in large numbers, with penalties to be hit, and are not in cover. I find the Crimson Fist buff at least as good as the Imperial Fist one.
And for what it's worth, the relics are also pretty great. I've had a lot of fun with the Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain - though he might see a bit less action now Pedro's so good. The relic rifle is great too - albeit something of a duplcation of the Bellicos Bolt Rifle in the main book. It can replace a Stalker rifle though, so you can take a Lieutenant to an event and go with either Duty's Burden or Lament, depending on your opponent. Or neither, to save CPs.
To be honest there isn't a lot to choose between Crimson and Imperial Fists. If Crimson Fists can't have a siegebreaker cohort then that would be a pain. As far as I can tell they should be able to, as any other Imperial Fist successor can... though I guess it would be a little odd if Black Templars could. In fact the whole thing could really do with some clarification.
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
And the fist of Vengeance really helps a lot. You're probably playing a kind of gunline. Having your captain not just give rerolls but also pop out and smash a knight is seriously good. An IF gunline is a bit less able to punch back if the enemy gets to them.
I think Tor Garadon fits into the "punching back" role quite literally. Yes, he only gives Captain rerolls (but Signum array!) but few characters are able to buff and deal the smackity to a Knight as well as him without Stratagem expense.
Plus, the Special issue Power Fist (that IF has access to, too) is almost as good as the Fist of Vengeance, isn't it?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Crimson Fists do not have access to the siegebreaker cohort which really hurts them as it's a massively powerful tool for the Imperial Fists.
It wont last long. It was not written with the current Imperial fists rules in mind. Cents got buffed both offensive and defensively and it was already stupid powerful.
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
Orks don't care one whiff about ignore cover. 6 to 5 isn't woith it anyway with cover(and ignored anyway) and fitting entire unit into cover is hopeless anyway
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
Orks don't care one whiff about ignore cover. 6 to 5 isn't woith it anyway with cover(and ignored anyway) and fitting entire unit into cover is hopeless anyway
The 5+ matters quite a lot for a 7 point model, and it counters both Blood Axes and to a lesser extent Deffskulls (as anything in cover will be forced into its 6++ a lot quicker).
Not when -1 is so common and -2 is pretty much baseline for marines. And even if you run into army against AP0(so IG or other orks basically...) you don't fit into terrain to begin with.
And blood axes? Sure if we want to consider super hyper casual enviroment but then you don't talk about is crimson fist or imperial fist better. Opponent isn't even trying to win either.
tneva82 wrote: Not when -1 is so common and -2 is pretty much baseline for marines. And even if you run into army against AP0(so IG or other orks basically...) you don't fit into terrain to begin with.
And blood axes? Sure if we want to consider super hyper casual enviroment but then you don't talk about is crimson fist or imperial fist better. Opponent isn't even trying to win either.
...which only would happen in the range of Rapid Fire, where Orks want to be to do some charging. Also Blood Axes aren't exactly the best but definitely a better choice than Snakebites or Goffs without Ghaz.
1. So CF are a better counter to Orks than IF. Oh, that's so against the background! -_-
2. I didn't know Orks were a meta defining top army. As you are using them as your main argument to talk down IF, I would expect that to be the case.
DanielFM wrote: 1. So CF are a better counter to Orks than IF. Oh, that's so against the background! -_-
2. I didn't know Orks were a meta defining top army. As you are using them as your main argument to talk down IF, I would expect that to be the case.
I'd say the real argument in favour of Crimson Fists over Imperial Fists is that they gain more options from the book than the parent chapter does. It really is kind of surprising that there's simply more in that supplement for a successor than there is for the parent. And it resulted in IF having fewer options than the other supplement chapters since CF can use all the IF things, but the opposite isn't true.
DanielFM wrote: 1. So CF are a better counter to Orks than IF. Oh, that's so against the background! -_-
2. I didn't know Orks were a meta defining top army. As you are using them as your main argument to talk down IF, I would expect that to be the case.
Hordes generally are meta defining. Plaguebearers and bloodletters, for example. GSC are a top tier army too.
I’ve played using crimson fists at high level tournaments, using the WD rules. It definitely felt like a step up from the previous CTs. I particularly like that it works in the assault phase too.
Edit: I’m not claiming I did all that well. It was a solid 3:2 list. But now I have a lot of new toys.
I dont think hordes will be as meta defining now that we have so much marines. With 25-50% of the meta being marines hordes wont have it that easy with all the improved bolters that will be everywhere. And removing marines in cover will be what IF does best. Intercessors with 2+ in cover dies unless making a 6+ save against IF Stalker intercessors.
Having troops with str 4 ap3 d 2-3 36" that ignore cover and gives extra hits on 6s is gonna be really good against the new meta.
Hi lads, quick question. Can you perform a heroic intervention after assault disembarking + moving from impulsor? I know the rule says you cant charge but as far as I know HI doesnt count as a charge. Thanks!
I don't think you can Heroic Intervention on your own turn. But you could get out, and wait around for an enemy unit to get close enough on their turn.
bmsattler wrote: I don't think you can Heroic Intervention on your own turn. But you could get out, and wait around for an enemy unit to get close enough on their turn.
Under Battlescribe, the warlord trait 'Marksman's Honors' indicates that it works with chapter relics. This is not what the codex Space Marines says. I haven't been able to find an FAQ that changes the codex's wording. I understand that Battlescribe is not an official source, but I wanted to check with people to see if I'm missing a change that was made.
bmsattler wrote: Under Battlescribe, the warlord trait 'Marksman's Honors' indicates that it works with chapter relics. This is not what the codex Space Marines says. I haven't been able to find an FAQ that changes the codex's wording. I understand that Battlescribe is not an official source, but I wanted to check with people to see if I'm missing a change that was made.
Battlescribe is a great way to produce an illegal army list and get confused over rules. I'm amazed it's so popular. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "but battlescribe says..."
bmsattler wrote: Under Battlescribe, the warlord trait 'Marksman's Honors' indicates that it works with chapter relics. This is not what the codex Space Marines says. I haven't been able to find an FAQ that changes the codex's wording. I understand that Battlescribe is not an official source, but I wanted to check with people to see if I'm missing a change that was made.
Battlescribe is a great way to produce an illegal army list and get confused over rules. I'm amazed it's so popular. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "but battlescribe says..."
Its a great way to quickly build lists, which is someone annoying thing to do now that points are no longer listed in the unit entries.
It is however important to always double check everything with a codex if your taking the list anywhere outside a casual environment and it is most certainly not an alternative to the actual rules because, as you said, it gets things wrong.
That said, if you find things wrong please report it so that it can be fixed.
Mandragola wrote: Battlescribe is a great way to produce an illegal army list and get confused over rules. I'm amazed it's so popular. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "but battlescribe says..."
It's not so much that BattleScribe is the best option, more that it's basically the only decent 40k army list builder out there. I'm consistently amazed that GW hasn't put together an official list builder, as there's a massive demand for one.
Yeah, I wouldnt even bother playing 8th edition if it wasnt for battlescribe. Tried using multiple books just to see how many points I had if I wanted to play against. Gave up due to the hassle until a friend showed me battlescribe and how easy it is to use. There is just to much information and too spread out to do it by hand in an easy way without BS
Fair enough. I use the enhanced edition codexes so I have the full rules there with me on my phone.
Looking up points in the back would be a real pain. Luckily you can prod at the phone and they all pop up. Gets updated (eventually) with stuff like CA and FAQs too.
Mandragola wrote: Fair enough. I use the enhanced edition codexes so I have the full rules there with me on my phone.
Looking up points in the back would be a real pain. Luckily you can prod at the phone and they all pop up. Gets updated (eventually) with stuff like CA and FAQs too.
Is that right? Seems like a pretty handy tool for gaming at least rather than having the full codex. Can you bookmark important pages?
Mandragola wrote: Pedro has actually been improved a lot, now that I've had a squint at the GMG video. Reviewers have missed how much he's changed, probably because the changes are quite subtle.
The most important change is to his aura. Previously it added 1 to attacks of Crimson Fist models within 6" of him. Now it adds 1 to attacks of models in Crimson Fist units that are within 6" of him. This is a huge change as it massively spreads out the radius of this buff.
He's also got the proper chapter master rerolls now, plus he gained an attack and D2 on his gun. The five attacks on his profile, his aura and the Angels of Death rule mean that he gets seven attacks on the charge, at least six of which should hit.
So overall Pedro is really cool now. In the past I've preferred my Primaris captain with the Fist of Vengeance but Pedro is now a really serious buffing character who can do work in melee too. His 6 wounds and 5 attacks are the profile of a Primaris captain, even if technically he isn't Primaris. I'm going to finish my Marneus Calgar-based conversion and get this guy onto a table. He rocks.
Better show that off when you're done.
Pedro is really the only thing pulling Crimson Fists together though. Otherwise they're just worse Imperial Fists.
I don't agree with that at all. +1 to hit is often a better buff than ignoring cover. Hordes are a thing. Plaguebearers come in large numbers, with penalties to be hit, and are not in cover. I find the Crimson Fist buff at least as good as the Imperial Fist one.
And for what it's worth, the relics are also pretty great. I've had a lot of fun with the Fist of Vengeance on a Primaris Captain - though he might see a bit less action now Pedro's so good. The relic rifle is great too - albeit something of a duplcation of the Bellicos Bolt Rifle in the main book. It can replace a Stalker rifle though, so you can take a Lieutenant to an event and go with either Duty's Burden or Lament, depending on your opponent. Or neither, to save CPs.
To be honest there isn't a lot to choose between Crimson and Imperial Fists. If Crimson Fists can't have a siegebreaker cohort then that would be a pain. As far as I can tell they should be able to, as any other Imperial Fist successor can... though I guess it would be a little odd if Black Templars could. In fact the whole thing could really do with some clarification.
That relies on an opponent actually building for you to get that advantage. The only army Imperial Fists aren't gonna get a bonus against is Daemons. Otherwise, they don't care about your terrain or how you deploy. On top of that they entirely negate a set of army bonuses (and they're the most competitive usually to boot). Crimson Fists have none of that.
Relics are only going to give you so much when other armies have better ways to deliver smash dudes and Strats/rules to back them up.
And the fist of Vengeance really helps a lot. You're probably playing a kind of gunline. Having your captain not just give rerolls but also pop out and smash a knight is seriously good. An IF gunline is a bit less able to punch back if the enemy gets to them.
I think Tor Garadon fits into the "punching back" role quite literally. Yes, he only gives Captain rerolls (but Signum array!) but few characters are able to buff and deal the smackity to a Knight as well as him without Stratagem expense.
Plus, the Special issue Power Fist (that IF has access to, too) is almost as good as the Fist of Vengeance, isn't it?
Tor also wounds the Knight on a 3+ which is kinda nice.
That said a Knight charging at you likely doesn't care about your character punching back.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Crimson Fists do not have access to the siegebreaker cohort which really hurts them as it's a massively powerful tool for the Imperial Fists.
It wont last long. It was not written with the current Imperial fists rules in mind. Cents got buffed both offensive and defensively and it was already stupid powerful.
Why they didn't kill it when they FAQ'd vigilous stuff for the new codex marines beats me.
It sounds like GW got a little too complacent about the play testing and/or editing of the latest supliments.
Just way too many seriously who actually thought that wasn't going to be an issue moments from the wording of certain rules.
Mandragola wrote: Fair enough. I use the enhanced edition codexes so I have the full rules there with me on my phone.
Looking up points in the back would be a real pain. Luckily you can prod at the phone and they all pop up. Gets updated (eventually) with stuff like CA and FAQs too.
Is that right? Seems like a pretty handy tool for gaming at least rather than having the full codex. Can you bookmark important pages?
Yes, but you hardly need to. It's broken down into chapters and they've got contents lists. So you can click through to the right unit easily. It's at least as easy as finding them in the paper book.
To be clear, it is the full codex. You have all the background, colour pics and stuff that a paper one would have. You can also spin some images round and things like that.
They take up quite a bit of space on my phone though, annoyingly, and cost as much as paper ones. I've got an ipad, which is an ideal way to look at the books, but it can't store all that many of them, unfortunately.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Crimson Fists do not have access to the siegebreaker cohort which really hurts them as it's a massively powerful tool for the Imperial Fists.
It wont last long. It was not written with the current Imperial fists rules in mind. Cents got buffed both offensive and defensively and it was already stupid powerful.
Why they didn't kill it when they FAQ'd vigilous stuff for the new codex marines beats me.
It sounds like GW got a little too complacent about the play testing and/or editing of the latest supplements.
Just way too many seriously who actually thought that wasn't going to be an issue moments from the wording of certain rules.
It's clear GWs approach is "wait until proven busted" Give it a month. It can't last.
Devastator Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp
I think I use several UM bonus pretty well, such as the classic grav-deva in Tactical Doctrine or the seal of Oath with the 9 men squad (able to kill a hive tyran or a tank as easily as a gaunt squad).
Devastator Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp
I think I use several UM bonus pretty well, such as the classic grav-deva in Tactical Doctrine or the seal of Oath with the 9 men squad (able to kill a hive tyran or a tank as easily as a gaunt squad).
I think some venerable dreads with LC would serve you better than vet squads. Scout bikes already fill that roll pretty well IMO. They also make good use of doctrines - turn 1 they are AP -4 which is nice but they don't mind being switched to tactical ether so they hit on 2's on the move.
Has anyone tried several squads of scouts with sniper rifles near a seal of oath ? If I'm not mistaken, it says reroll to hit and to wound, not failed to wound so you could reroll all of those 4 and 5 (and 3 occasionally) to fish for 6 . 15 scouts would put between 4 to 5 mw in addition of normal wounds (6 in average), killing a marine character (including gravis or named characters) in a single volley.
195 pts (not counting the character because it would be taken anyway as an HQ).
3 eliminator squads are doing merely the same and are more expensive, but probably easier to hide.
I want to brew lists for Salamanders but i dont know what the point is since i feel nothing will be available after the two week FAQ.
I want to buy and build a list, but, i dont want to get burned like the people who bought into executioners after the iron hands supplement, or chaplain dreads after the raven guard supplement, or relic whirlwinds after the space marines codex/ultramarines supplement.
Its like were beta testing and its super fething expensive to be a part of this. I got lucky with my iron hands list in that the one i wanted to build was barely touched, but i had plans on buying a set of venerables and mortis dreadnoughts to play that meme list and now whats the point.
Salamanders is the chapter I enjoy playing the most and they have a lot of abilities that seem like really fun ways to build around it, but if two(four) weeks later i cant do fething anything with them because all the stuff i wanted to build with them is suddenly not allowed anymore, whats the point.
Its a really bitter pill to swallow spending hundreds of hours painting 700$ worth of models only to hear that yea that list you wanted to play isnt allowed to be played any more.
Rakdarian wrote: I want to brew lists for Salamanders but i dont know what the point is since i feel nothing will be available after the two week FAQ.
I want to buy and build a list, but, i dont want to get burned like the people who bought into executioners after the iron hands supplement, or chaplain dreads after the raven guard supplement, or relic whirlwinds after the space marines codex/ultramarines supplement.
Its like were beta testing and its super fething expensive to be a part of this. I got lucky with my iron hands list in that the one i wanted to build was barely touched, but i had plans on buying a set of venerables and mortis dreadnoughts to play that meme list and now whats the point.
Salamanders is the chapter I enjoy playing the most and they have a lot of abilities that seem like really fun ways to build around it, but if two(four) weeks later i cant do fething anything with them because all the stuff i wanted to build with them is suddenly not allowed anymore, whats the point.
Its a really bitter pill to swallow spending hundreds of hours painting 700$ worth of models only to hear that yea that list you wanted to play isnt allowed to be played any more.
It really hurts the enthusiasm
Don't chase meta, play what you like and you'll be set.
So I decided that, after a test game, I NEED that anti-vehicle just in case for my Raptors. However, the real question is what direction to go? For reference, the old list is as follows:
Spoiler:
BRIGADE - Raptors (Raven Guard Successor w/ Stealthy, Long Range Marksmen)
HQ:
x1 Lias Issodon
x1 Terminator Captain w/ Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Relic: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: Storm of Fire
x1 Biker Captain w/ Storm Bolter, Chainsword, Relic: Teeth of Terra, Masters of the Tri-Fold Path: Feigned Flight
For reference, the list is pretty simple. The Terminator Captain camps with the Thunderfire Cannons, the Biker Captain will initially help babysit a couple of Scouts or Intercessors or both depending on how I need to deploy, and then after some brief chaff clearing Lias and everyone in the Elite slot drops down for an Alpha/Beta strike. Sentry Guns, meanwhile, help create a barrier for the backfield and have decent firepower and durability (thanks GW for Chapter Tactics on everyone) for the price. While the Thunderfire Cannons did a lot for lighter vehicles, anything that's heavy but not a Knight is going to be slightly harder to crack, and I need to be able to camp against those targets. Then it hit me: what's stupid tough for the price and can poke from just as far away? Hunters that don't need babysitting of course. So I am planning to test the following, which is basically the same list to be frank:
Spoiler:
BRIGADE - Raptors (Raven Guard Successor w/ Stealthy, Long Range Marksmen)
HQ:
x1 Lias Issodon
x1 Terminator Captain w/ Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Relic: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword
x1 Biker Captain w/ Storm Bolter, Chainsword, Relic: Teeth of Terra, Masters of the Tri-Fold Path: Feigned Flight
FAST ATTACK:
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun w/ Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun w/ Twin Heavy Bolter
x1 Tarantula Sentry Gun w/ Twin Heavy Bolter
ELITES:
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Relic: Standard of the Emperor Ascendant
HEAVY SUPPORT:
x1 Thunderfire Cannon
x1 Hunter w/ HK Missile
x1 Hunter w/ HK Missile
x1 Hunter w/ HK Missile
So to fit in at least one Thunderfire Cannon, which is possible, I removed 1 Scout from each squad in the original list. There is less to spam against Characters now, but I think the Hunters create some light poking at the heavier vehicles without an Invul to fall back on. Now, because of the accuracy they already show, I would likely switch out the Terminator Captain for maybe a Lt. to babysit the Hunters on the only thing they need, which is the rerolling to wound here and there. Assuming I do that, after adding a Power Fist and The Primarch's Wrath (he might be able to contribute to shooting at least, or I just stick with Armor of Shadows for sticking around), there might be enough points to add back a Sniper Scout to each squad again.
NOW another idea outside that is keeping the Captain and 6 man Scout squads and losing the all three TFCs to add in Stalkers with HKs on each one too. Now I LOVE Stalkers, and even though they hit ground targets less, they will benefit from the Captain still and have enough shots to kinda hurt screening units.
My Imperial Fists brethren, why don't we discuss about Tor Garadon best pals?
I think a dakka Redemptor is a good candidate. Lots of shots to buff with the signum array+rr1s, even when it degrades, and both hit like a truck (huge CaC deterrent).
Bolter Agressors also come to mind.
Any more ideas? (I know Centurions will come up too, bu I hate them
DanielFM wrote: My Imperial Fists brethren, why don't we discuss about Tor Garadon best pals?
I think a dakka Redemptor is a good candidate. Lots of shots to buff with the signum array+rr1s, even when it degrades, and both hit like a truck (huge CaC deterrent).
Bolter Agressors also come to mind.
Any more ideas? (I know Centurions will come up too, bu I hate them
Why would you hate Centurions? The models honestly require super little work to make look good.
Rakdarian wrote: I want to brew lists for Salamanders but i dont know what the point is since i feel nothing will be available after the two week FAQ.
I want to buy and build a list, but, i dont want to get burned like the people who bought into executioners after the iron hands supplement, or chaplain dreads after the raven guard supplement, or relic whirlwinds after the space marines codex/ultramarines supplement.
Its like were beta testing and its super fething expensive to be a part of this. I got lucky with my iron hands list in that the one i wanted to build was barely touched, but i had plans on buying a set of venerables and mortis dreadnoughts to play that meme list and now whats the point.
Salamanders is the chapter I enjoy playing the most and they have a lot of abilities that seem like really fun ways to build around it, but if two(four) weeks later i cant do fething anything with them because all the stuff i wanted to build with them is suddenly not allowed anymore, whats the point.
Its a really bitter pill to swallow spending hundreds of hours painting 700$ worth of models only to hear that yea that list you wanted to play isnt allowed to be played any more.
It really hurts the enthusiasm
Don't chase meta, play what you like and you'll be set.
It’s not a matter of meta chasing it’s a matter of “I want to build a list around a certain gimmick” like I was planning on buying a bunch of venerable and Morris dreadnoughts so I could have a fluffy charachter dreadnoughts list. Unfortunately for anyone who went out and bought those you can’t play that list anymore thanks to the faq. I’m also convinced that any list trying to embrace a gimmick with salamanders is going to get hit in the FAQs that’s incoming. So why bother? Casual players are gong to get burned and so are competitive players which is not ideal for anyone
tneva82 wrote: So wait for the 2 weeks and see what happens? You can't be the sole guy in the world without big pile of shame while waiting for the FAQ
So why get excited if the book isn’t actually out then. It took a month to get the iron hands faq
tneva82 wrote: So wait for the 2 weeks and see what happens? You can't be the sole guy in the world without big pile of shame while waiting for the FAQ
So why get excited if the book isn’t actually out then. It took a month to get the iron hands faq
Hopefully we get that FAQ faster and it squashes any broken combos. Waste those dollars flamer boys, prior to the FAQ!
the iron hands one was held off because GW wanted to wait and see before hitting it with a nerf bat. Sallies I doubt are i need of a nerf quite so much
BrianDavion wrote: the iron hands one was held off because GW wanted to wait and see before hitting it with a nerf bat. Sallies I doubt are i need of a nerf quite so much
Sallies specifically are worse then iron hands. 2” charges on turn 1 and untargetable centurions/devastators, kataphrons, basically any big unit with big gun has better then charachter keywords for as long as you want. At least you could interact with iron hands, you c any do that with sallies.
DanielFM wrote: My Imperial Fists brethren, why don't we discuss about Tor Garadon best pals?
I think a dakka Redemptor is a good candidate. Lots of shots to buff with the signum array+rr1s, even when it degrades, and both hit like a truck (huge CaC deterrent).
Bolter Agressors also come to mind.
Any more ideas? (I know Centurions will come up too, bu I hate them
Why would you hate Centurions? The models honestly require super little work to make look good.
Because the models are crap and poorly introduced and the first in the long line of Space Marines range destruction. I can't even understand how people would give away hard earned money for... that.
tneva82 wrote: So wait for the 2 weeks and see what happens? You can't be the sole guy in the world without big pile of shame while waiting for the FAQ
So why get excited if the book isn’t actually out then. It took a month to get the iron hands faq
IH is sole exception of the 2 week period so don't base things on it.
But you can play now but it's never good idea to spend lots of money before faq. Otherwise ork players might have rushed to get meganobz with idea of 2++ meganobz! With GW not a good idea. Don't give GW what they want.
tneva82 wrote: So wait for the 2 weeks and see what happens? You can't be the sole guy in the world without big pile of shame while waiting for the FAQ
So why get excited if the book isn’t actually out then. It took a month to get the iron hands faq
IH is sole exception of the 2 week period so don't base things on it.
But you can play now but it's never good idea to spend lots of money before faq. Otherwise ork players might have rushed to get meganobz with idea of 2++ meganobz! With GW not a good idea. Don't give GW what they want.
BrianDavion wrote: the iron hands one was held off because GW wanted to wait and see before hitting it with a nerf bat. Sallies I doubt are i need of a nerf quite so much
Sallies specifically are worse then iron hands. 2” charges on turn 1 and untargetable centurions/devastators, kataphrons, basically any big unit with big gun has better then charachter keywords for as long as your CPs hold out. At least you could interact with iron hands, you c any do that with sallies.
BrianDavion wrote: the iron hands one was held off because GW wanted to wait and see before hitting it with a nerf bat. Sallies I doubt are i need of a nerf quite so much
Sallies specifically are worse then iron hands. 2” charges on turn 1 and untargetable centurions/devastators, kataphrons, basically any big unit with big gun has better then charachter keywords for as long as your CPs hold out. At least you could interact with iron hands, you c any do that with sallies.
fixed that for you.
It is entirely reasonable to have a vanguard of salamanders and then 2 brigades of admech with this setup.
CP is not a problem.
though this might actually have a very hard time dealing with dark eldar
Rakdarian wrote: It’s not a matter of meta chasing it’s a matter of “I want to build a list around a certain gimmick” like I was planning on buying a bunch of venerable and Morris dreadnoughts so I could have a fluffy charachter dreadnoughts list. Unfortunately for anyone who went out and bought those you can’t play that list anymore thanks to the faq. I’m also convinced that any list trying to embrace a gimmick with salamanders is going to get hit in the FAQs that’s incoming. So why bother? Casual players are gong to get burned and so are competitive players which is not ideal for anyone
That's why you shouldn't be building around gimmicks. A single FAQ can invalidate it.
Just buy models you like and think are cool. This is a hobby after all. It might be best to just take a step back and wait to see how it all shakes out.
BrianDavion wrote: the iron hands one was held off because GW wanted to wait and see before hitting it with a nerf bat. Sallies I doubt are i need of a nerf quite so much
Sallies specifically are worse then iron hands. 2” charges on turn 1 and untargetable centurions/devastators, kataphrons, basically any big unit with big gun has better then charachter keywords for as long as you want. At least you could interact with iron hands, you c any do that with sallies.
2" charges on turn 1 for Salamanders? Did I miss something in the reviews?
DanielFM wrote: My Imperial Fists brethren, why don't we discuss about Tor Garadon best pals?
I think a dakka Redemptor is a good candidate. Lots of shots to buff with the signum array+rr1s, even when it degrades, and both hit like a truck (huge CaC deterrent).
Bolter Agressors also come to mind.
Any more ideas? (I know Centurions will come up too, bu I hate them
Why would you hate Centurions? The models honestly require super little work to make look good.
DanielFM wrote: My Imperial Fists brethren, why don't we discuss about Tor Garadon best pals?
I think a dakka Redemptor is a good candidate. Lots of shots to buff with the signum array+rr1s, even when it degrades, and both hit like a truck (huge CaC deterrent).
Bolter Agressors also come to mind.
Any more ideas? (I know Centurions will come up too, bu I hate them
Why would you hate Centurions? The models honestly require super little work to make look good.
Because the models are crap and poorly introduced and the first in the long line of Space Marines range destruction. I can't even understand how people would give away hard earned money for... that.
Why are people saying Crimson Fist CT are bad ? SM are usually MSU anyway and hitting on 2+ with so many rerolls 1 available seem pretty good to me. At least they don't look that bad haha
And they keep the +1 damages against vehicles (such a shame it's doesn't do anything against monsters !)
godardc wrote: Why are people saying Crimson Fist CT are bad ? SM are usually MSU anyway and hitting on 2+ with so many rerolls 1 available seem pretty good to me. At least they don't look that bad haha
And they keep the +1 damages against vehicles (such a shame it's doesn't do anything against monsters !)
+5 ? Maybe it's because if my meta, but big squads of gaunts, genestealers, necrons warriors and immortals, even full chaos or cultist squads are pretty common.
In a Marine vs Marine game I can see that being useless though
Without seeing the relics for CF I can't say for sure. They share the +1 damage with heavies vs vehicles right? That right there already makes them better than all other chapters not named ironhands or imperial fists. Plus the still get the super solid 6's on bolters generate auto hits... LOL. Cents already ignore cover too and as a 3 man unit they are going to hit on 2's vs lots of things. They are strong.
godardc wrote: +5 ? Maybe it's because if my meta, but big squads of gaunts, genestealers, necrons warriors and immortals, even full chaos or cultist squads are pretty common.
In a Marine vs Marine game I can see that being useless though
Thats largely the point. Yeah you'll potentially get it against infantry, but it will never trigger against large targets, or against any faction that isnt running 10-man squads of things. As a result, when compared to an always on ability like the IF prime CT, or a tailored successor chapter, its just not up to snuff.
godardc wrote: +5 ? Maybe it's because if my meta, but big squads of gaunts, genestealers, necrons warriors and immortals, even full chaos or cultist squads are pretty common.
In a Marine vs Marine game I can see that being useless though
Thats largely the point. Yeah you'll potentially get it against infantry, but it will never trigger against large targets, or against any faction that isnt running 10-man squads of things. As a result, when compared to an always on ability like the IF prime CT, or a tailored successor chapter, its just not up to snuff.
How often does a knight or a tank get cover though? Not nearly as much as infantry. There is nothing in the successor tree remotely as good as extra hits for bolters on 6's. It is probably as good as any 2 successor traits. Does Kantor still give a +1 attack aura?
How often does a knight or a tank get cover though? Not nearly as much as infantry. There is nothing in the successor tree remotely as good as extra hits for bolters on 6's. It is probably as good as any 2 successor traits. Does Kantor still give a +1 attack aura?
More often than you think. Stealthy + Master Artisans is rapidly becoming the de facto standard for Marines, and I expect as it becomes available to other factions they will likewise start rolling it out. Denying IH mechanized forces or Wave Serpent + Flyer hordes a 2+ army wide save is worth the price of admission alone. IFs effectively get 2 bonus AP against permacover armies (as well as blanket denying "while gaining the benefit of cover" abilities). That's huge.
godardc wrote: +5 ? Maybe it's because if my meta, but big squads of gaunts, genestealers, necrons warriors and immortals, even full chaos or cultist squads are pretty common.
In a Marine vs Marine game I can see that being useless though
Thats largely the point. Yeah you'll potentially get it against infantry, but it will never trigger against large targets, or against any faction that isnt running 10-man squads of things. As a result, when compared to an always on ability like the IF prime CT, or a tailored successor chapter, its just not up to snuff.
How often does a knight or a tank get cover though? Not nearly as much as infantry. There is nothing in the successor tree remotely as good as extra hits for bolters on 6's. It is probably as good as any 2 successor traits. Does Kantor still give a +1 attack aura?
How often does a knight or a tank get cover though? Not nearly as much as infantry. There is nothing in the successor tree remotely as good as extra hits for bolters on 6's. It is probably as good as any 2 successor traits. Does Kantor still give a +1 attack aura?
More often than you think. Stealthy + Master Artisans is rapidly becoming the de facto standard for Marines, and I expect as it becomes available to other factions they will likewise start rolling it out. Denying IH mechanized forces or Wave Serpent + Flyer hordes a 2+ army wide save is worth the price of admission alone. IFs effectively get 2 bonus AP against permacover armies (as well as blanket denying "while gaining the benefit of cover" abilities). That's huge.
Yeah - that is a good point. With AP -4 lascannon though...it is almost worthless and very easy to build against. Heck executioners hit at ap-5.
So I have a lot of white bikes, some stalkers, a hunter, some scouts, various flyers, rhinos, a vindicator, a predator, a couple of land raiders, razorbacks and a bunch of tactical squads. Just no primaris models. When 8th hit I dusted off my guard and have been playing them religiously. Now that the 
