While I agree his shooting is superior he is nowhere near the level of calgar in melee. They're not even playing the same game in terms of legality up close and melee counter punch. Calgar has more attacks, hit's harder, hits essentially every time (2+ re-rollable versus flat 3+) and is on similar levels of overall durability depending on what hits him. I think Iron boy is comparable for sure and overall in the same ballpark (albeit less strong IMO), but he's not the fighter boss that Calgar is.
Nor does papa Cybork help his lads with melee support rerolls. Get in under the guns of an Iron Hands parking lot and they're gonna have a bad, bad day.
Yeah this is my thinking too. He has a decent melee weapon but he's not going toe to toe with anything serious. And sure, the gun is good for a character, but not amazing. The relic bolt rifle available to anyone is better, as it has 4 shots instead of 3 - albeit at less range.
So but he's a buffer, not a fighter. If the cost is right then that's fine. He keeps your stuff alive rather than killing enemy stuff.
One other thing that counts against him is the other relic that's been teased. Reducing incoming damage by 1 is an immense buff in today's meta, which is very full of 2-damage weapons. Halving the damage Hemlocks cause is phenomenal.
Can't wait till Shrikes' preview tomorrow, curious what that gun of his does, how good he is in melee and whether he'll have any special interaction with Phobos units. And hopefully he'll keep his Winged Deliverance ability.
DoomMouse wrote: Just noticed we can give scout sergeants thunder hammers these day. Could be interesting for a first turn surprise punch for 16pts extra on a scout squad.
And yet, Sternguard sarges are called out as not being allowed to have them still. Would it be to powerful to put on a sarge with 3 attacks that can hide in a squad? Let’s ask intercessor sergeants...
DoomMouse wrote: Just noticed we can give scout sergeants thunder hammers these day. Could be interesting for a first turn surprise punch for 16pts extra on a scout squad.
And yet, Sternguard sarges are called out as not being allowed to have them still. Would it be to powerful to put on a sarge with 3 attacks that can hide in a squad? Let’s ask intercessor sergeants...
<grumble>
For some reason sternguard were the first guys to be hit by the “no kitbash” rule. There’s no thunder hammer in the box, so they can’t have one.
Inceptors look pretty good now. They are 41 per model, got a third wound, they can re-rolls 1s to hit with bolter fusillades, no captain babysitter needed, and with hammer of wrath they can do MW on 5+, in addition to their 6+ MW meteoric descent after charging. After charging they get +1 attack in melee with shock assault.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: And where is the Thuderhammer in the Scout box? Cause there sure is none in mine...
Well yeah that’s my point. The “no kitbash” rule is bizarre and gets applied totally arbitrarily. The only consistent thing seems to be that it applies to kits released after a particular time.
It’s mostly a problem for Primaris, where it applies to everything apart from (for no obvious reason) intercessor sergeants. Stuff released earlier gets let off the hook, even when it would actually be quite tricky to convert them in some cases. I think it would be quite hard to make a scout with thunder hammer look good, but you van just go for it.
Scouts with thunder hammers are silly, but if you used dwarf hammers from aos it would look ok, if still a bit under sized. But hey, you have undersized power fists on imperial guard commanders as an option as well so..... yeah? :p
Note : i am not suggesting you put thunder hammers on your scouts..... that seems like a bad idea.
Azuza001 wrote: Scouts with thunder hammers are silly, but if you used dwarf hammers from aos it would look ok, if still a bit under sized. But hey, you have undersized power fists on imperial guard commanders as an option as well so..... yeah? :p
Note : i am not suggesting you put thunder hammers on your scouts..... that seems like a bad idea.
Why not? Give them 'whirlwind of rage' and 'master artisans' successor tactics and you average 2.6 thunder hammer hits with a scout sergeant on the charge
Yeah I know it's probs not the strongest and it's probably a bad idea to convert a model that could easily not exist next edition but I would find it funny.
So... shrikes info has been shown..... so its a 14" moving shrike. Sigh. I mean, i hope he doesn't cost much but at the moment thats very underwhelming vs the iron father.
Yeah, but he is just shrike with an extra attack, wound, and 2" movement. Oh and he has a sniper pistol. Very underwhelming vs what the iron father can add to your force. There isnt anything the primaris shrike can do that non primaris couldnt, so he isnt andding anything new really to the army.
Don't get me wrong, i am not complaining about shrike as i have always enjoyed him. Its just gw keeps showing awsome thing day 1, day 2 not so much, day 3 awsome, day 4 not so much. They should have done it the other way to drum up excitement instead they end on a low note and makes me go mmmmm.
I guess it saves feeling compelled to buy the RG book... :p. Though I’m still tempted since Reece has mentioned how they’re his favorite due to their tricks and the preview didn’t show any of their stratagem tricks yet.
RG does seem like a pretty good counter army to IH though. They can snipe the Ironstone character and get in cc without taking overwatch vs the packed in heavy vehicles.
I was just reading through the codex again (prepping for a RTT tomorrow) and did anyone else realize that they changed Honour The Chapter to now work on ANY Adeptus Astartes unit, So Dreadnoughts can now fight twice in CC.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, but he is just shrike with an extra attack, wound, and 2" movement. Oh and he has a sniper pistol. Very underwhelming vs what the iron father can add to your force. There isnt anything the primaris shrike can do that non primaris couldnt, so he isnt andding anything new really to the army.
Don't get me wrong, i am not complaining about shrike as i have always enjoyed him. Its just gw keeps showing awsome thing day 1, day 2 not so much, day 3 awsome, day 4 not so much. They should have done it the other way to drum up excitement instead they end on a low note and makes me go mmmmm.
That sniper pistol can easily one-shot a Commissar or Ethereal from deepstrike though. 2+ rerollable to hit and 2+ to wound in tactical doctrine. But no, he isn't as original as the Iron Father. But if GW changed Shrike too much you'd hear no end of complaints about that.
I wanted sniper rifle and camo cloak Shrike, but nooooo everyone else insisted "jUmP pAcKs aRe rAvEn GuArD!!!1!".
Personally, I'm pleasantly happy with him in spite of what my wishes were. The model's really nice so he'll be getting purchased, while the current Shrike model has never been owned by me.
With that out of the way, I do think it silly that we didn't see a Phobos Assault Marines styled unit. Really would have solidified this release.
I was hoping gorgon chain would be a 3++ but making a leviathan a char now lets you put any wounds that do get through onto that squad of stalker intercessors next to it. Kind of silly.
I was hoping gorgon chain would be a 3++ but making a leviathan a char now lets you put any wounds that do get through onto that squad of stalker intercessors next to it. Kind of silly.
I was hoping gorgon chain would be a 3++ but making a leviathan a char now lets you put any wounds that do get through onto that squad of stalker intercessors next to it. Kind of silly.
Have we seen anything like this for Raven Guard?
Nothing that i've come across. I found the IH one on reddit but there hasnt been anything else posted. Apparently its from a twitch stream on warhammer tv that also stated the iron father is 110 points and that in the IH book dreads can take relics and warlord traits with the character strat.
An option for iron hands would be a bunch of venerable and/or Mortis dreads (not contemptors) made into characters. With 8 wounds you could have a gunline that the enemy couldn’t fire back at. That seems fair.
Mandragola wrote: An option for iron hands would be a bunch of venerable and/or Mortis dreads (not contemptors) made into characters. With 8 wounds you could have a gunline that the enemy couldn’t fire back at. That seems fair.
Venerables waste their innate 6fnp though. Normally I'd still buy them for the 2+ stats, but if you can get a source of +1 to hit or 2+ BS from the named IH guy then you could use a regular dread for cheaper.
But all this still gets back to my thought, yeah RG may not be as good in general as IH, but RG seems like they could be a pretty solid counter pick to an IH meta. All those character dreads just got easier to kill and if you were bunched up for the 3" aura then anything reaching cc while avoiding overwatch will be a serious problem.
BrianDavion wrote: the ability to intercept wounds on characters for a strat seems pretty nice. I can just imagine how the design development of this supplement went.
"Fans have long complained that Iorn Hands aren't given very good treatment, lacking a special character etc" "HOLD MY BEER!"
I mean the more I see the more rediculas this looks.
GW making up for the past and future 20 years of neglect all at once
Had a game with non-primaris ultramarines against chaos knights soup. In the particular game seal of oath was naturally mean and rapid deployment was great too. My opponent conceded after my second turn. I overwatched a lord disco T1 with four units, that strat was nice too. I had chronus in a assback and it wasn't that bad choice either.
I dunno if we played right, but my enemy tried to save his knight by tying it in melee against drop pod, he multi-charged one of my grav devs and their pod and made all attacks against dev squad (stomping only three hehe ws5+). My chapter master with teeth of terra finished the knight off T2, but it's not good against T8 not so suprisingly, had to fight twice..
One more thing I liked was adept of the codex and scryer's gaze 2cp farming.. my librarian with jump pack had two WT (2nd masters of strategy) hiding in my gunline.
Xirax wrote: One more thing I liked was adept of the codex and scryer's gaze 2cp farming.. my librarian with jump pack had two WT (2nd masters of strategy) hiding in my gunline.
You can’t refund 2 CP. As per the April 2019 update...
Tactical Restraint (page 7)
There are several Warlord Traits, Relics, psychic powers and abilities that give you a chance to gain or refund Command Points. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 Command Point per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source.
Ok, thanks. Thought it didn't involve psychic powers such as scryer's gaze. On 2nd turn I think I failed luke 6 5+ in a row for adept of the codex. But still makes it more reliable to have to sources to try it.
Guerilla Miniature's review of the Raven Guard book:
Spoiler:
There's definitely some nice Warlord Traits(Swift and Deadly would be great for a Captain with Jump Pack; Advance+Charge in a 6" bubble).
Oppressor's End is a Relic Combat Knife, so the Reiver Lt can get a nasty trick with attacks vs characters getting resolved at 3 damage.
Ex Tenebris can go on Phobos Captains to give you a Assault 3 S4 -2AP 2 Damage Bolt Carbine that ignores Cover.
Shadowmaster's Cloak(3+ Invuln when wholly on a terrain feature) is nice.
But can we talk about the Stratagem, "Strangehold"? Am I wrong in thinking that might be a Big Deal? If you have Phobos or Scout units in your Raven Guard army, your opponent has to roll each time they do a Stratagem...if they fail their CP cost goes up by 1 for the Stratagem.
Kanluwen wrote: Guerilla Miniature's review of the Raven Guard book:
Spoiler:
There's definitely some nice Warlord Traits(Swift and Deadly would be great for a Captain with Jump Pack; Advance+Charge in a 6" bubble).
Oppressor's End is a Relic Combat Knife, so the Reiver Lt can get a nasty trick with attacks vs characters getting resolved at 3 damage.
Ex Tenebris can go on Phobos Captains to give you a Assault 3 S4 -2AP 2 Damage Bolt Carbine that ignores Cover.
Shadowmaster's Cloak(3+ Invuln when wholly on a terrain feature) is nice.
But can we talk about the Stratagem, "Strangehold"? Am I wrong in thinking that might be a Big Deal? If you have Phobos or Scout units in your Raven Guard army, your opponent has to roll each time they do a Stratagem...if they fail their CP cost goes up by 1 for the Stratagem.
Am I crazy for thinking that's a good trick?
As a RG player I am very happy with the supplement. The new Shrike is amazing at 130pts.
Kanluwen wrote: Guerilla Miniature's review of the Raven Guard book:
Spoiler:
There's definitely some nice Warlord Traits(Swift and Deadly would be great for a Captain with Jump Pack; Advance+Charge in a 6" bubble).
Oppressor's End is a Relic Combat Knife, so the Reiver Lt can get a nasty trick with attacks vs characters getting resolved at 3 damage.
Ex Tenebris can go on Phobos Captains to give you a Assault 3 S4 -2AP 2 Damage Bolt Carbine that ignores Cover.
Shadowmaster's Cloak(3+ Invuln when wholly on a terrain feature) is nice.
But can we talk about the Stratagem, "Strangehold"? Am I wrong in thinking that might be a Big Deal? If you have Phobos or Scout units in your Raven Guard army, your opponent has to roll each time they do a Stratagem...if they fail their CP cost goes up by 1 for the Stratagem.
Am I crazy for thinking that's a good trick?
As a RG player I am very happy with the supplement. The new Shrike is amazing at 130pts.
Hopefully other Chapter Masters get some similar price cuts in their respective books. Shrike is so much better now than before, but his price went down. *Crosses fingers for a 130 pt or less Primaris Pedro Kantor*
Shrike is amazing at 130. Definatly happy about that.
Ironhands is fething stupid. I am going to say that now. That needs to get toned down/something needs to be done.
Iron father is 110? Wth?
Dreadnaughts getting the 6" consolidation wl trait so they can charge in, punch something, then consolidate back 6" to be out of range? Or even a smash captain doing that.....
They get the black templar deny psycic power on a 4+ roll after deny attempts? Why?!?
There are a lot of things that seem broken by the new iron hands. Apparently the gw testing team really likes them, what other explanation could there be for all of this gak?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Hopefully other Chapter Masters get some similar price cuts in their respective books. Shrike is so much better now than before, but his price went down. *Crosses fingers for a 130 pt or less Primaris Pedro Kantor*
Kantor's a shooty boss...I hope he doesn't get anywhere down near 130.
the warlord traits and strats make raven guard a lot better then at first glance. They have a WT that lets the warlord and a unit of infantry at the start the game get placed anywhere 9" away from enemy. Hello assault centurions and smash captain in your face backed up by invictors and phobos units. Give that trait to a chaplain instead for the 2" charge move too.
Played a game with ultra successors (master artisans & +1 charge) against a nasty genestealer cults list yesterday, mg thoughts on some of the stuff i used.
Centurians - lascannon, hurricane - were pretty boss always a found a good target.
Photos captain - against gsc his deep strike denial was great and his dam3 bolter was non to shabby.
Tactical terminators - drop in with tactical doc up, no penalty on firing the cyclone, blase away with 20 -1 ap stormbolters the assault something else with extra powerfist attacks. Loved them.
Eliminators - didn't actually kill too much but really altered how my opponent deployed and moved in the early game.
Stern guard in a pod - surgical tool, I play with 9 and a company champion, he gives good counter assault and a possible character assassination out of DS, great for his points.
Thunder fire cannons - seems pretty bonkers for there points now. BS 2+ and a 4 wound 2+ save character with a powerfist for very few points is a steal. Double shooting tremor shell FTW.
Tac marines - I ran double plasma squads and gravcannon, bolted squads. Didn't set the world alight but with the new bonuses seemed worth their points.
Overall everything seems useful, the extra attack on first round gives marines a new dimension and make them alot more generally dangerous to week chaff, the AP from doctrines lets them threaten bigger stuff
casvalremdeikun wrote: Hopefully other Chapter Masters get some similar price cuts in their respective books. Shrike is so much better now than before, but his price went down. *Crosses fingers for a 130 pt or less Primaris Pedro Kantor*
Kantor's a shooty boss...I hope he doesn't get anywhere down near 130.
His main unique ability buffs the Fight Phase though. His shooting weapon is not that great either.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Hopefully other Chapter Masters get some similar price cuts in their respective books. Shrike is so much better now than before, but his price went down. *Crosses fingers for a 130 pt or less Primaris Pedro Kantor*
Kantor's a shooty boss...I hope he doesn't get anywhere down near 130.
His main unique ability buffs the Fight Phase though. His shooting weapon is not that great either.
I still think the weirdest thing with RG is that their chapter tactic benefits when being far away and then all their cool strats let you get close. Now that there's custom chapter tactics I kinda think I'd always want to go custom unless centering an army around Shrike?
Let's say you're putting 12 Assault Centurions 9" away along with some Invictors. Nothing is going to be firing over 12" at your backfield campers until that is dealt with, why not take something like Long Range Marksmen and Whirlwind?
Chaplain uses raven warlord trait to put him and the centurians right on your opponents front door t1.
Drop pod drops devistators in t1 for a garunteed "f u" to something using the strat
Intercessors take up position mid field with shrike as counter charge.
Snipers take up flanks to keep ds away and snipe any chrs who pop their heads out.
Thunderfire keeps fast moving units slowed down.
Warlord keeps the eleminators shooting at max effectiveness while keeping himself safe due to shrouding (even a vindicator cant snipe your warlord!)
Chaplain uses raven warlord trait to put him and the centurians right on your opponents front door t1.
Drop pod drops devistators in t1 for a garunteed "f u" to something using the strat
Intercessors take up position mid field with shrike as counter charge.
Snipers take up flanks to keep ds away and snipe any chrs who pop their heads out.
Thunderfire keeps fast moving units slowed down.
Warlord keeps the eleminators shooting at max effectiveness while keeping himself safe due to shrouding (even a vindicator cant snipe your warlord!)
Thoughts?
I'd take 6 aggressors instead of the cents and go to town with 30 points to spare. Otherwise I'd shave points from somewhere to get an Apothecary for the cents
@ Kithail, why aggressors vs centurions? Is there something i am missing? Centurions seem to have more wounds and be a bigger threat in cc and for hoard clearing.
I am asking because i havent pulled the trigger on them yet and i would like to make sure i am not wasting 150$ on 6 of these guys.
So, iron hands double storm cannon array relic leviathan dreadnought, make it a character with march of the ancients, give it a warlord trait with hero of the chapter, the one where when you consolidate 6" and you can move in any direction. Feel free to give it a relic, if you like. When your opponent charges it you will overwatch on 5+, because of iron hands chapter tactic, plus the 2D6 automatic heavy flamer hits (if within 8"), and with a stratagem you will overwatch on 4s. Your leviathan will still have 4 attacks at S8 AP0 D1, because of march of the ancients, and shock assault. If any enemy models are still alive, and you are in melee, you can consolidate away from them, and shoot on your next turn, because you didnt fallback in the movement phase
Hello everyone! I know there's this love about the new stuff coming out recently (and hell I'm a RG funboy myself) but I kinda have this feeling that the best chapter tactics are the combination of the custom ones , regarding competitive play at least (ETC player here) . What do you thing about that ? I feel that you can "tailor" each force the way it suits you that is . I 'll post the following list as an example . There's the shooty part and the cc part filling different roles :
**Chapter Selection**: Hungry for Battle, Whirlwind of Rage
Detachment CP [1CP]
+ HQ +
Captain in Terminator Armor [6 PL, 145pts]: Storm shield, The Imperium's Sword, Thunder hammer, Warlord
Chaplain [5 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: 6. Canticle of Hate, Benediction of Fury, Bolt pistol, Jump Pack, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Imperium's Sword
Librarian [6 PL, 118pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 2) Might of Heroes, Boltgun, Force axe, Jump Pack
True that ! Yeah probably I will go champion of humanity or legendary fighter with the captain . This is not a competitive list though , I post it as an example for the chapter tactics .
Hammernators are still not viable IMO due to lack of mobility even though combat squading them will make them somewhat better at addressing different threats on the table
What about using Hammernators as a screening unit to protect a gunline, in case you need to slap away some charging units who would otherwise tie you up?
Waaaghpower wrote: What about using Hammernators as a screening unit to protect a gunline, in case you need to slap away some charging units who would otherwise tie you up?
Assault centurions are probably better. They can still shoot with their hurricanes and flamers as well as acting as counter assault.
Waaaghpower wrote: What about using Hammernators as a screening unit to protect a gunline, in case you need to slap away some charging units who would otherwise tie you up?
Assault centurions are probably better. They can still shoot with their hurricanes and flamers as well as acting as counter assault.
True, but consider this: I don't own any Assault Centurions. In all seriousness, though, would it change the math since they're Iron Hands and can bring along a heavy weapon, which they'll benefit from more than the assault weapons that Centurions can take?
Waaaghpower wrote: What about using Hammernators as a screening unit to protect a gunline, in case you need to slap away some charging units who would otherwise tie you up?
Assault centurions are probably better. They can still shoot with their hurricanes and flamers as well as acting as counter assault.
True, but consider this: I don't own any Assault Centurions. In all seriousness, though, would it change the math since they're Iron Hands and can bring along a heavy weapon, which they'll benefit from more than the assault weapons that Centurions can take?
Assulat terminators can't bring a heavy weapon it's CC only, you would have to go 30k terminators to be able to mix CC and shooting and even then I still don't think they make a good unit for that.
Waaaghpower wrote: What about using Hammernators as a screening unit to protect a gunline, in case you need to slap away some charging units who would otherwise tie you up?
Assault centurions are probably better. They can still shoot with their hurricanes and flamers as well as acting as counter assault.
True, but consider this: I don't own any Assault Centurions. In all seriousness, though, would it change the math since they're Iron Hands and can bring along a heavy weapon, which they'll benefit from more than the assault weapons that Centurions can take?
Assulat terminators can't bring a heavy weapon it's CC only, you would have to go 30k terminators to be able to mix CC and shooting and even then I still don't think they make a good unit for that.
Whoops, you're right. I'm used to playing Space Wolves when I bring terminators.
Azuza001 wrote: @ Kithail, why aggressors vs centurions? Is there something i am missing? Centurions seem to have more wounds and be a bigger threat in cc and for hoard clearing.
I am asking because i havent pulled the trigger on them yet and i would like to make sure i am not wasting 150$ on 6 of these guys.
Nothing is better at horde clearance than aggressors. Remember you can infiltrate them now without having counted as moving aand shoot twice for literally hundreds of shots. It is a suicide unit but the amount of shots with Shrike nearby (add a lieutenant to rub salt) is insane. 6 have good chances of getting some to survive and fist someone anus in the next charge phase.
EDIT: I think that blob of 6 aggressors with shrike will be seen a lot in RG lists. You even reroll the 9" charge with him around and he adds some oomph. Second turn you can fall back with survivors with the RG strat and shoot some character in the face and then charge a tank along with shrike. Even if the enemy dedicates a lot of firepower to erase them fron existence, well, you have the rest of the army to keep shooting. T5 12W and 2+ for anything outside 12" is surprisingly survivable.
I think dropping something in a pod, plus phobos units/Invictor suits to really put the threats up close and personal, make opponent have tough choices
Seems like it would be a nice relic in lower points games when you take a Primaris Lt in a battalion along with Fierros. Give said Lt a Stalker Bolt Rifle and in Dev doctrine you could potentially deal 6 damage to an enemy vehicle turn 1(if you roll a 6 to wound, -1 AP for heavy on the gun for AP-3, 3 damage from the normal shot and 3 Mortal wounds). even if you do not roll the 6 to wound you have a 50% chance to damage with d3 mortal wounds.
A required second HQ that only costs 70pts and is a credible threat all game seems like a pretty darn good choice.
For the Phobos Librarian power 'Temporal Corridor' you pick a Phobos unit to move as if in the movement phase +advance. Does the advance part carry over to prevent shooting and/or charging?
bmsattler wrote: For the Phobos Librarian power 'Temporal Corridor' you pick a Phobos unit to move as if in the movement phase +advance. Does the advance part carry over to prevent shooting and/or charging?
Yes, any "as if it were x phase" is treated exactly as if the actions were carried out in that phase.
The Power forces an advance move, therefore you are treated in all cases as if you had advanced in the previous movement phase.
bmsattler wrote: For the Phobos Librarian power 'Temporal Corridor' you pick a Phobos unit to move as if in the movement phase +advance. Does the advance part carry over to prevent shooting and/or charging?
Yes, any "as if it were x phase" is treated exactly as if the actions were carried out in that phase.
The Power forces an advance move, therefore you are treated in all cases as if you had advanced in the previous movement phase.
You can, however, use the Stratagem to allow this unit to charge.
bmsattler wrote: For the Phobos Librarian power 'Temporal Corridor' you pick a Phobos unit to move as if in the movement phase +advance. Does the advance part carry over to prevent shooting and/or charging?
Yes, any "as if it were x phase" is treated exactly as if the actions were carried out in that phase.
The Power forces an advance move, therefore you are treated in all cases as if you had advanced in the previous movement phase.
You can, however, use the Stratagem to allow this unit to charge.
Unfortunately the author has some issues with how the rules work/interact (went to his IH supplement preview and he claimed that the Blessing of the Machine god power would increase to hits on Overwatch, modifiers do nothing in overwatch).
Still, outside of missing large chunks of content that I am interested in, knowing that there are several relics/Special Issue wargear that I would want other than the Ironstone from time to time is good news.
and the Salamanders do look fairly powerful in certain builds, they bring very little for pure Primaris, but that is a very good thing.
Azuza001 wrote: @ Kithail, why aggressors vs centurions? Is there something i am missing? Centurions seem to have more wounds and be a bigger threat in cc and for hoard clearing.
I am asking because i havent pulled the trigger on them yet and i would like to make sure i am not wasting 150$ on 6 of these guys.
Nothing is better at horde clearance than aggressors. Remember you can infiltrate them now without having counted as moving aand shoot twice for literally hundreds of shots. It is a suicide unit but the amount of shots with Shrike nearby (add a lieutenant to rub salt) is insane. 6 have good chances of getting some to survive and fist someone anus in the next charge phase.
EDIT: I think that blob of 6 aggressors with shrike will be seen a lot in RG lists. You even reroll the 9" charge with him around and he adds some oomph. Second turn you can fall back with survivors with the RG strat and shoot some character in the face and then charge a tank along with shrike. Even if the enemy dedicates a lot of firepower to erase them fron existence, well, you have the rest of the army to keep shooting. T5 12W and 2+ for anything outside 12" is surprisingly survivable.
Agressors getting 3 wounds a piece makes them even better too, you have to dedicate a fair degree of firepower to them.
bmsattler wrote: For the Phobos Librarian power 'Temporal Corridor' you pick a Phobos unit to move as if in the movement phase +advance. Does the advance part carry over to prevent shooting and/or charging?
Yes, any "as if it were x phase" is treated exactly as if the actions were carried out in that phase.
The Power forces an advance move, therefore you are treated in all cases as if you had advanced in the previous movement phase.
You can, however, use the Stratagem to allow this unit to charge.
Which strat?
Sorry, looks like it's limited to jump pack units. It's called Strike from the Skies. Let's a unit charge even if it advanced plus gives it plus 1 on the charge.
bmsattler wrote: For the Phobos Librarian power 'Temporal Corridor' you pick a Phobos unit to move as if in the movement phase +advance. Does the advance part carry over to prevent shooting and/or charging?
Yes, any "as if it were x phase" is treated exactly as if the actions were carried out in that phase.
The Power forces an advance move, therefore you are treated in all cases as if you had advanced in the previous movement phase.
You can, however, use the Stratagem to allow this unit to charge.
Which strat?
Sorry, looks like it's limited to jump pack units. It's called Strike from the Skies. Let's a unit charge even if it advanced plus gives it plus 1 on the charge.
There is also a WL trait that gives an aura of advance and charge
bmsattler wrote: For the Phobos Librarian power 'Temporal Corridor' you pick a Phobos unit to move as if in the movement phase +advance. Does the advance part carry over to prevent shooting and/or charging?
Yes, any "as if it were x phase" is treated exactly as if the actions were carried out in that phase.
The Power forces an advance move, therefore you are treated in all cases as if you had advanced in the previous movement phase.
You can, however, use the Stratagem to allow this unit to charge.
Which strat?
Sorry, looks like it's limited to jump pack units. It's called Strike from the Skies. Let's a unit charge even if it advanced plus gives it plus 1 on the charge.
There is also a WL trait that gives an aura of advance and charge
Basically Raven Guard can play the White Scars game if careful.
With the Salamander super doctrina I see 3 land speeders full heavy flamer very viable. Maybe not the most destroyer unit but very flexible and with great movement and overwatch.
Azuza001 wrote: @ Kithail, why aggressors vs centurions? Is there something i am missing? Centurions seem to have more wounds and be a bigger threat in cc and for hoard clearing.
I am asking because i havent pulled the trigger on them yet and i would like to make sure i am not wasting 150$ on 6 of these guys.
Nothing is better at horde clearance than aggressors. Remember you can infiltrate them now without having counted as moving aand shoot twice for literally hundreds of shots. It is a suicide unit but the amount of shots with Shrike nearby (add a lieutenant to rub salt) is insane. 6 have good chances of getting some to survive and fist someone anus in the next charge phase.
EDIT: I think that blob of 6 aggressors with shrike will be seen a lot in RG lists. You even reroll the 9" charge with him around and he adds some oomph. Second turn you can fall back with survivors with the RG strat and shoot some character in the face and then charge a tank along with shrike. Even if the enemy dedicates a lot of firepower to erase them fron existence, well, you have the rest of the army to keep shooting. T5 12W and 2+ for anything outside 12" is surprisingly survivable.
Shrike only allows rerolls for charging Jump pack and Phobos units
The Vanguard marines should really shine with Ravenguard. Some of the vanguard warlord traits and Obscuration discipline powers will be very dangerous and fit well. Definitely looking forward to putting this all together when the codex is in my hands next week.
Man, an all Melta force of bikes in the Salamander options would be pretty neat. As would an all Melta/flamer Speeder list. I had hoped that SM Code 2.0 would do away with the 8' Flamer range fiasco, but I was wrong.
Here's hoping this "leak" is hogwash and the real stuff is better.
So watching the mini wargaming review on ravenguard.... shrike is a phobos unit now? This was the first i heard of that part! Dont they also have an advance and charge strat now? And if they do whats the potential of fastballing shrike t1 for some chr assassination shinanigans?
Shrike advance + move, then phobos lib corridors him, then charge?
(14+d6)+(14+d6)+2d6(rerolling) for 32" - 52" threat range?
You can also pay one CP/unit to have them do a pre-first turn infiltration move at their move+advance, then advance-and-charge if they are jump pack or phobos. On top of the Warlord who can place himself and one infantry unit anywhere outside 9 of enemy units and deployment zone. I'm seriously considering getting 6x assault centurions for that role.
Azuza001 wrote: So watching the mini wargaming review on ravenguard.... shrike is a phobos unit now? This was the first i heard of that part! Dont they also have an advance and charge strat now? And if they do whats the potential of fastballing shrike t1 for some chr assassination shinanigans?
Shrike advance + move, then phobos lib corridors him, then charge?
(14+d6)+(14+d6)+2d6(rerolling) for 32" - 52" threat range?
And then do what? Maybe get 2-3 wounds on a HQ/character that will likely obliterate him on his turn? Wouldn't it be a waste to use him in that fashion? Better that he bullies Elites and Heavy infantry then tries to do a turn 1 character attack that would cost a lost and likely cost the model.
Azuza001 wrote: So watching the mini wargaming review on ravenguard.... shrike is a phobos unit now? This was the first i heard of that part! Dont they also have an advance and charge strat now? And if they do whats the potential of fastballing shrike t1 for some chr assassination shinanigans?
Shrike advance + move, then phobos lib corridors him, then charge?
(14+d6)+(14+d6)+2d6(rerolling) for 32" - 52" threat range?
And then do what? Maybe get 2-3 wounds on a HQ/character that will likely obliterate him on his turn? Wouldn't it be a waste to use him in that fashion? Better that he bullies Elites and Heavy infantry then tries to do a turn 1 character attack that would cost a lost and likely cost the model.
Depends what you're throwing him at. He'll kill any t4 or less char with no invul most likely. 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2's with re rolls, str 4 with re rolls to wound at -3 and 2dmg is going to do at least 6 wounds and he also has. 4+ mortal wound chance on the charge. Also his pistol can cap a weak support char on its own.
I wouldnt agree that throwing him into the mix unsupported turn 1 is the right call but ravenguard can put a lot of t1 pressure with invictors, phobos units and things like infiltrating assault cents or aggressors.
Problem is the corridor requires the phobos unit to be within 3" of the psyker at the start of the psychic phase; which means your libby in phobos has to be 17.9" down field where you want shrike to end up before shrike moves. So you have to set him up in concealed positions along with another unit in front of him and hope you are absolutely going first. Then after advancing shrike (twice), you have to spend the cps to pop strike from the skies.
He gets 6 attacks base, +1 for charging, +1 str and attack if you cast might of heros on him (which i always have done before, its the duo i run).
Thats 8 attacks hitting on 2's rerolling 1's so probably 8 hits.
Str 5 lets say he is going after a bike slash captain for the lols.
Thats 4 wounds, then rerolling the misses thats 6 wounds. Biker saves on a 3++ with storm shield so 2 go through for 4 dmg.
Spend 2cp and thats a dead captain.
2 things here : first shrike will probably die as well in this scenario due to the captain fighting twice as well thanks to honor the chapter. Second of course there are other better targets, but shrike doesnt have to be your warlord for this to work and your probably going to go after their warlord in this situation to make it worth it. Shrike is a beat stick unit, he isnt a force multiplier like the iron father. He can assassinate something real quick (now you see the vindicare, now you dont!) Or hit a key backline unit so losing him isnt as detrimental as it could be.
You can also attack hellblasters (they will die horribly to this) or havocs or even a wardog/armiger would fall pretty quickly to shrike here. My point simply is by being able to do it your setting yourself up for a victory even if you dont. Your opponent just has to know you can to make them change how they play.
The only problem with that scenario is that everything goes off perfectly.
1. Who puts their biker captain alone, unscreened, at the forefront of their army?
2. Let's say your opponent blocks the cast. Then you're getting 6 hits on S4. If I ever see a SM player think about casting MoH on a HQ, I just instinctively block. It's not worth them creating some beatstick monster I have to deal with for the turn.
3. Biker captain get's to re-roll that wound that got through.
I'm not saying it's not a good tactic. Heck, it's a strong tactic. But I could really do better with Shrike than a turn 1 charge that maybe takes out a weak HQ model.
I'd rather see him descend on the back field turn 2, or make my opponent think he will, and force them to protect against him. Wasting him on turn 1 just makes your opponent think, Oh, that's cool. At least I don't have to worry now.
The RG warlord trait I liked the look of was the one where you got to take the warlord and an infantry unit and stick them anywhere outside of 9" from the enemy at the start of the first battle round..
Because if I'm going first, that'll be 6 assault centurions (or maybe 10 assault terminators) and a smash captain or chaplain dreadnought deployed 9" from their target, moving, gunning down the screen, then charging. And you even get past other people's infiltrators becase omni-scramblers only affect reinforcements - not units deploying at the start of the game.
Ravenguard can do some extremely mean things. Actually I think they look a lot more fun than iron hands do. Iron hands make an awesome blob of hard-to-kill tanks but raven guard can get all over people.
But you prob wouldnt ever do Shrike on his own turn 1, you’re also dropping 6 assault cents 9” away with another HQ, some Invictors, and maybe something else that can run up far enough with the extra pregame move.
I’m still back to wondering if at that point you wouldn’t use a custom HQ instead of Shrike since you aren’t using his jump pack or Phobos charge rerolls, but the turn 1 charge idea stands.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I haven’t looked into the points it’d take, prob too many, but I’d be tempted to make an IH backfield blob of unkillable shooty dreads and then an RG component that can either get in someone’s face turn 1 or screen the IH portion, whichever is better vs your current opponent.
With all these cool new books im very tempted to make my own chapter do I can hop between rules Willy Milly. My crimson fists are still waiting for their sweet rules.
bort wrote: But you prob wouldnt ever do Shrike on his own turn 1, you’re also dropping 6 assault cents 9” away with another HQ, some Invictors, and maybe something else that can run up far enough with the extra pregame move.
I’m still back to wondering if at that point you wouldn’t use a custom HQ instead of Shrike since you aren’t using his jump pack or Phobos charge rerolls, but the turn 1 charge idea stands.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I haven’t looked into the points it’d take, prob too many, but I’d be tempted to make an IH backfield blob of unkillable shooty dreads and then an RG component that can either get in someone’s face turn 1 or screen the IH portion, whichever is better vs your current opponent.
I don't think I'd use Shrike. Does he even have the trait you'd need? Anyway there are tons of units you could potentially send forward. Invictor suits, incursors and so on would all work. It's a slight shame that the units that benefit most from the sneakiness are the ones (like centurions) that should actually be the least sneaky.
I reckon assault centurions could be a great way to go anyway. They're generally very good but with -1 to hit them and always counting as in cover, they'll be seriously problematic to remove. I can see a strong case for grav centurions with a 9" pre-game move as well.
Cool to see Salamanders rules. I don't particularly feel like playing them, but a successor with +3" flamers could toast things I guess.
Salamanders give a really tough choice on chapter. Successor gives the super important +3” to range to benefit flamers and Melta, but Vulkan gives the wound rerolls...Either way, prob not the army for me, but gives some solid options to players with a large 5th ed Marine army lying around.
Mandragola wrote:
I reckon assault centurions could be a great way to go anyway. They're generally very good but with -1 to hit them and always counting as in cover, they'll be seriously problematic to remove. I can see a strong case for grav centurions with a 9" pre-game move as well.
I'm pretty sure the Raven Guard pre-game move uses their movement, not a flat 9'. It works awesome for Jump Pack models, and would suck with centurions. However, we can send any infantry unit into deep strike, and also have the warlord+infantry unit deploy 9' away thing. I made a list that uses two units of 6x assault centurions and 2x vanguard vets with thunderhammers. Sneaky chaplain with jump pack places himself and first centurion squad right up in their face. Shrike and 2x jump pack infantry infiltrate 12+d6 up pre-game. Last centurion squad goes into deep strike. The thing I like about this is that it all happens after the seize-the-initiative roll, so if I get 2'nd turn I fade away (like a shadow).
bort wrote: But you prob wouldnt ever do Shrike on his own turn 1, you’re also dropping 6 assault cents 9” away with another HQ, some Invictors, and maybe something else that can run up far enough with the extra pregame move.
I’m still back to wondering if at that point you wouldn’t use a custom HQ instead of Shrike since you aren’t using his jump pack or Phobos charge rerolls, but the turn 1 charge idea stands.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I haven’t looked into the points it’d take, prob too many, but I’d be tempted to make an IH backfield blob of unkillable shooty dreads and then an RG component that can either get in someone’s face turn 1 or screen the IH portion, whichever is better vs your current opponent.
You do that and you lose your super doctrines. Basically not viable.
bort wrote: But you prob wouldnt ever do Shrike on his own turn 1, you’re also dropping 6 assault cents 9” away with another HQ, some Invictors, and maybe something else that can run up far enough with the extra pregame move.
I’m still back to wondering if at that point you wouldn’t use a custom HQ instead of Shrike since you aren’t using his jump pack or Phobos charge rerolls, but the turn 1 charge idea stands.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I haven’t looked into the points it’d take, prob too many, but I’d be tempted to make an IH backfield blob of unkillable shooty dreads and then an RG component that can either get in someone’s face turn 1 or screen the IH portion, whichever is better vs your current opponent.
You do that and you lose your super doctrines. Basically not viable.
Maybe... I think that the RG one is passable at best, and doesn't affect turn 1 at all. I reckon there'd definitely be an argument for cherry picking the top relics/strats/traits/warlord traits for 2 or 3 different marine chapters (EG iron hands leviathans with iron father and ironstone combo with some infiltrating assault centurions as a raven guard successor). Loss of super doctrines for free access to all the cheese in all the 6 supplements.
I am thinking of running 6 assault centurions with hurricane bolters and flame gauntlets with my ravenguard. Going to try the warlord trait to give the warlord and a unit the ability to start 9" out on an apothecary for heals, drop them in cover, and see if they get ignored (probably a bad idea) or shot at (yessss waist your ammo on them... ignore everything else.... it will be fine.....)
bort wrote: Salamanders give a really tough choice on chapter. Successor gives the super important +3” to range to benefit flamers and Melta, but Vulkan gives the wound rerolls...Either way, prob not the army for me, but gives some solid options to players with a large 5th ed Marine army lying around.
Vulkan also doesn't help anyone outside an aura. That extra 3" does more for Flamers than Vulkan ever will.
An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?
There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future
Khornatedemon wrote: An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?
There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future
Khornatedemon wrote: An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?
There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future
How was the Bike Chap being used?
Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword
Possibly thinking RGWT that infils an infantry unit with warlord for Aggressors, and a 2nd WT on a character that allows 3 units t be redeployed (from vanguard traits). Totally redeploy your force to mass somewhere else.
Khornatedemon wrote: An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?
There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future
How was the Bike Chap being used?
Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword
I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.
Khornatedemon wrote: An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?
There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future
How was the Bike Chap being used?
Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword
I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.
I dont have the index so I couldnt say. I'm going to guess maybe it's a points thing cause the chappy is cheaper?
Khornatedemon wrote: An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?
There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future
How was the Bike Chap being used?
Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword
I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.
My guess is that he is using the +1 S/A/D self buff which stacks really well with the high number of attacks. Also IIRC chaplains hit on 2+ CC don't they?
Khornatedemon wrote: An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?
There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future
How was the Bike Chap being used?
Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword
I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.
My guess is that he is using the +1 S/A/D self buff which stacks really well with the high number of attacks. Also IIRC chaplains hit on 2+ CC don't they?
They do, but they don't get the reroll unless they did their chant on a 3+, and I'd wager, if you're doing Smashchap, you're gonna want the chant that makes him better at fighting anyway.
Khornatedemon wrote: An UM list got 3rd at LGT. Bobby G, 2 repulsors, a squad of aggressors, some elimnators and standard scouts and whatnot. Top 2 lists were nasty eldar flyer spam. Anyone selling stormhawks?
There was also an interesting soup list that won another charity gt that was a BA battalion with smash cap and scouts and a UM vanguard with a bike chappy and 3 invictors backed up by a pair of tank commanders and guard mortar spam. I expect we'll start seeing more of the smash captain and 3 invictors in soup in the future
How was the Bike Chap being used?
Slash chappy with teeth of terra and imperium sword
I don't think Chaps are even allowed Chainswords are they? Plus even if they are, the Captain already rerolling his own hits rather than needing a 3+ for it makes more sense for a weapon with as many attacks like the Teeth of Terra.
My guess is that he is using the +1 S/A/D self buff which stacks really well with the high number of attacks. Also IIRC chaplains hit on 2+ CC don't they?
They do, but they don't get the reroll unless they did their chant on a 3+, and I'd wager, if you're doing Smashchap, you're gonna want the chant that makes him better at fighting anyway.
Yeah I'd agree with using the self-buff. Although the chappy could've also used Canticles of hate for the +2 to charging on the invictor warsuits AND for that juicy 6" consolidate/pile in. Charge the screen that is protecting the tanks, and then pile in further then your opponent expects. Gives them incredible (if contextual) mobility and with the UM redeploy strat you can set them up for good first turn charges dependent on if you go first or second. With proper finesse the extra range on consolidate/pile in can be devastating with first turn disruption.
Also even if this wasn't the case, going from 2D -> 3D is a massive boost in efficiency for killing any 6+ Wound model which is why someone would choose a chaplain over captain. Haven't run the math but my guess would be the str6 3D out performs the rerolling ones on everything except T4 1-2 Wound models, which is a prevalent statline.
They do, but they don't get the reroll unless they did their chant on a 3+, and I'd wager, if you're doing Smashchap, you're gonna want the chant that makes him better at fighting anyway.
WisdomLS wrote: I'm finding all the talk of Infiltrating Assault centurions pretty funny, is there a less ravenguard unit ;-)
I could see an FAQ of that WL trait giving it a CP cap or restricting it to unit that don't have a 2+ save.
Yeah, a FAQ would not be inappropriate. They do seem a bit wrong.
If it helps, it’s not just the assault ones that work really well as ravenguard. Getting rid of devastator centurions in cover is going to be awkward too, and they get +1 to hit and wound most knights, due to being characters.
I’m not sure if it’s sillier that you can have them sneak into position before the game or pop out from behind a bush during it.
In any event, ravenguard are sort of like GSC in power armour now. I actually think they look seriously good. Iron Hands have the downsides of wanting to hug a 3” radius of the character with the relic, and a low model count – which are bad qualities for achieving missions. Raven Guard probably want an infantry-based army with quite a lot of intercessors, infiltrators and centurions. They’ll be all over the board and very difficult to get off it, with a ton of dakka for removing other people’s troops.
bort wrote: But you prob wouldnt ever do Shrike on his own turn 1, you’re also dropping 6 assault cents 9” away with another HQ, some Invictors, and maybe something else that can run up far enough with the extra pregame move.
I’m still back to wondering if at that point you wouldn’t use a custom HQ instead of Shrike since you aren’t using his jump pack or Phobos charge rerolls, but the turn 1 charge idea stands.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I haven’t looked into the points it’d take, prob too many, but I’d be tempted to make an IH backfield blob of unkillable shooty dreads and then an RG component that can either get in someone’s face turn 1 or screen the IH portion, whichever is better vs your current opponent.
You do that and you lose your super doctrines. Basically not viable.
IH dread backfield doesn't need to move and a captain will provide the rerolls to 1 easy enough. No need to get their super doctrine at all. It's basically useless if you don't intend to spread out or move much.
RG one is against Characters specifically, and while that's pretty powerful, the trade off you're really making is giving that up for a really durable backfield. I think that's plenty viable.
Yeah i really think Rg dont care as much about their super doctrine as other forces will. Its nice if it comes up but unless your facing knight chrs or tank chrs (tank commanders, the ultramarine guy, longstrike, lord discordant) or maybe an assassin very often its not that usful vs an enemies army as a whole. Running a salad with them or even soup isnt hurting them that much, vs iron hands for example who can have their army built around the devistarors doctrine for big bonuses.
To be honest I think you will nearly always get the super-doctrines. The thing is, you don’t gain an awful lot by souping, given that you already lose combat doctrines if you take any non-marine units. After all, is it really so important to have two different types of marines in your army? I suggest usually the benefit of doing so would be less than what you’d gain from any of the super-doctrines that we’ve seen so far.
I guess you’ll sometimes see small detachments of marines taken in support of other imperial armies, but if you’re taking a majority-marine army I think it’ll make sense to go for a single chapter.
I guess you’ll sometimes see small detachments of marines taken in support of other imperial armies, but if you’re taking a majority-marine army I think it’ll make sense to go for a single chapter.
It highly depends on the chapter you're using. White Scars and Raven Guard are purpose built to soup, their power comes from their stratagems, WL traits and relics. They lose relatively little by giving up super-doctrines and doctrines (and I say that as someone who holds the RG super-doctrine in very high esteem).
As an example, I currently run a WS successor battalion alongside my Deathwatch. The heavy lifting is done by their CTs, individual unit rules and stratagems. They dont care for a second that they dont get super-punches or a splash of additional AP.
Thus far, only Iron Hands will dread giving up thier super doctrine.
Imp fists might be in a similar situation.
They are also the 2 chapters that don't really like going to battle with other forces. IH attitude precludes "playing nice" with others; and Imp fists are all: "let me just do ot myself" smugness.
All other supplements that we have seen so far won't lose much from cooperation with other marines.
Thus far, only Iron Hands will dread giving up thier super doctrine.
Imp fists might be in a similar situation.
They are also the 2 chapters that don't really like going to battle with other forces. IH attitude precludes "playing nice" with others; and Imp fists are all: "let me just do ot myself" smugness.
All other supplements that we have seen so far won't lose much from cooperation with other marines.
I think the IH part is really dependent on what you want. Rerolling 1s is plentiful for ALL weapon types in a marine army.
The mobility you gain is really what matters, but that truly only matters if you're intending to use it. All these castles around Feirros suggest it isn't going to be that useful to them. You could also just bring units with PotMS if you want to slowly move 5"-11" a turn and by doing so you've just completely replaced that super doctrine.
It's honestly not that great unless you intend to by more aggressive. The heals and durability tools come from strats, unit abilities, and the psychic discipline.
Hmm fair enough. Personally I think the RG super doctrine is pretty good. I think I’d need a compelling reason to take a different kind of vanilla marines, losing the doctrine, rather than just go all RG.
That might be to do with how RG work though. Their CTs are good for their troops and firebase, but their characters and stratagems are good for going up close and beheading things. So the chapter covers most bases on its own without needing further support.
The same arguably applies to iron hands. It might be true that the bubble and potms on executioners means they don’t really need the super doctrine. But it’s a very bad approach to castle up entirely. Units like the flyers, suppressors and TFCs all gain loads from the super doctrine and you’ll need them (or something comparable) to take and hold objectives, and remove troops you can’t see from objectives.
You know what? I keep forgetting repulsors have PotMS.
New Dex and supplements are almost like GW is smacking everyone who cried "Primaris are replacing old marines, old marines are going to get squatted" over the head with a big no sign.
IH super doctrine is very useful for 2 things:
Maneuverability with heavy weapons.
Supercharging plasma.
Multimeltas become more useful with relentless, no longer limiting them to a 12" radius of board denial; but an actual weapon to move toward the enemy armor(-1 to hit isn't that bad but I am still having trouble not thinking of them like they were in older editions).
Dread-walls start moving in for the attack at full capacity again, meaning left arms can be fists again.
Preds, razors, and vindys are all more mobile.
The reroll 1s mean that Plasma has less risk of overheat, especially the heavy variants while moving. Plasma cannons, heavy incinerators, and macro incinerators are almost slain/mortal wound proof instead of far more likely(glad that my redemptor can swap main guns). The rest of the plasma weapons also benefit from reroll 1s without a captain babysitter.
New Dex and supplements are almost like GW is smacking everyone who cried "Primaris are replacing old marines, old marines are going to get squatted" over the head with a big no sign.
IH super doctrine is very useful for 2 things:
Maneuverability with heavy weapons.
Supercharging plasma.
Multimeltas become more useful with relentless, no longer limiting them to a 12" radius of board denial; but an actual weapon to move toward the enemy armor(-1 to hit isn't that bad but I am still having trouble not thinking of them like they were in older editions).
Dread-walls start moving in for the attack at full capacity again, meaning left arms can be fists again.
Preds, razors, and vindys are all more mobile.
The reroll 1s mean that Plasma has less risk of overheat, especially the heavy variants while moving. Plasma cannons, heavy incinerators, and macro incinerators are almost slain/mortal wound proof instead of far more likely(glad that my redemptor can swap main guns). The rest of the plasma weapons also benefit from reroll 1s without a captain babysitter.
Said it elsewhere, but will repeat here. Mechanized successor IH is gonna be the way to go. Tac squads with SB and a plasma cannon clock in at 78 points. Support a passel of those with multiple razorbacks, backline dreads and flyers and you've got a fast, lethal loadout that can fight on terms of their choosing.
Azuza001 wrote: @ Kithail, why aggressors vs centurions? Is there something i am missing? Centurions seem to have more wounds and be a bigger threat in cc and for hoard clearing.
I am asking because i havent pulled the trigger on them yet and i would like to make sure i am not wasting 150$ on 6 of these guys.
Nothing is better at horde clearance than aggressors. Remember you can infiltrate them now without having counted as moving aand shoot twice for literally hundreds of shots. It is a suicide unit but the amount of shots with Shrike nearby (add a lieutenant to rub salt) is insane. 6 have good chances of getting some to survive and fist someone anus in the next charge phase.
EDIT: I think that blob of 6 aggressors with shrike will be seen a lot in RG lists. You even reroll the 9" charge with him around and he adds some oomph. Second turn you can fall back with survivors with the RG strat and shoot some character in the face and then charge a tank along with shrike. Even if the enemy dedicates a lot of firepower to erase them fron existence, well, you have the rest of the army to keep shooting. T5 12W and 2+ for anything outside 12" is surprisingly survivable.
Shrike only allows rerolls for charging Jump pack and Phobos units
New Dex and supplements are almost like GW is smacking everyone who cried "Primaris are replacing old marines, old marines are going to get squatted" over the head with a big no sign.
IH super doctrine is very useful for 2 things:
Maneuverability with heavy weapons.
Supercharging plasma.
Multimeltas become more useful with relentless, no longer limiting them to a 12" radius of board denial; but an actual weapon to move toward the enemy armor(-1 to hit isn't that bad but I am still having trouble not thinking of them like they were in older editions).
Dread-walls start moving in for the attack at full capacity again, meaning left arms can be fists again.
Preds, razors, and vindys are all more mobile.
The reroll 1s mean that Plasma has less risk of overheat, especially the heavy variants while moving. Plasma cannons, heavy incinerators, and macro incinerators are almost slain/mortal wound proof instead of far more likely(glad that my redemptor can swap main guns). The rest of the plasma weapons also benefit from reroll 1s without a captain babysitter.
Said it elsewhere, but will repeat here. Mechanized successor IH is gonna be the way to go. Tac squads with SB and a plasma cannon clock in at 78 points. Support a passel of those with multiple razorbacks, backline dreads and flyers and you've got a fast, lethal loadout that can fight on terms of their choosing.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but why successors? The buffs offered by mainline Iron Hands seem really potent for dreads, razorbacks, and fliers.
New Dex and supplements are almost like GW is smacking everyone who cried "Primaris are replacing old marines, old marines are going to get squatted" over the head with a big no sign.
IH super doctrine is very useful for 2 things:
Maneuverability with heavy weapons.
Supercharging plasma.
Multimeltas become more useful with relentless, no longer limiting them to a 12" radius of board denial; but an actual weapon to move toward the enemy armor(-1 to hit isn't that bad but I am still having trouble not thinking of them like they were in older editions).
Dread-walls start moving in for the attack at full capacity again, meaning left arms can be fists again.
Preds, razors, and vindys are all more mobile.
The reroll 1s mean that Plasma has less risk of overheat, especially the heavy variants while moving. Plasma cannons, heavy incinerators, and macro incinerators are almost slain/mortal wound proof instead of far more likely(glad that my redemptor can swap main guns). The rest of the plasma weapons also benefit from reroll 1s without a captain babysitter.
.
Said it elsewhere, but will repeat here. Mechanized successor IH is gonna be the way to go. Tac squads with SB and a plasma cannon clock in at 78 points. Support a passel of those with multiple razorbacks, backline dreads and flyers and you've got a fast, lethal loadout that can fight on terms of their choosing.
My thoughts are similar except I was going to work with intercessors and impulsors. A few tacs and assbacks mixed in might not hurt
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but why successors? The buffs offered by mainline Iron Hands seem really potent for dreads, razorbacks, and fliers.
Most dreads dont have a damage table, and VenDreads (including the Chappy) are already packing the 6+++. Likewise, permacover for the entire army is far more valuable than said 6+++, especially for infantry. Yes flyers can in theory be a smidge more robust with enhanced tables, but in 8th you're either at full health or you're dead. If you're dead set on running everything in the world with a damage table, you can take the double wounds trait as a successor. It's not worth it though, as in doing so you open up your character dreadnoughts to fire.
Factor in a free wound reroll for MSU teams, twinlas units, etc, and you've got a highly accurate, mobile force.
My thoughts are similar except I was going to work with intercessors and impulsors. A few tacs and assbacks mixed in might not hurt.
Could work, but I'm not on sold on non-DW Stalker Intercessors, they dont get to haul heavy weapons, and the Impulsor just doesnt have the firepower that the Razorback is packing. Even with the missile and Ironhail, it's gonna underperform a SB+TwinLas or SB + Chaingun Razorback.
Impulsors plus Heavy Hellblasters is another discussion entirely, and I definitely think they've got a place in an IH-pattern list.
Hmm, that’s a fair point. I would still really like the 6+++ on my Leviathan or Deredeo, but counting as in cover at 12”+ is a similar negation (...except vs the not insignificant number of shots that can now ignore cover). The bracket effect is more useful for those dread types as well as it’s more likely it fails to die, but yeah both are useless to Venerables and Chaplains.
I definitely like the idea more of a mech IH list than a bunch of repulsors and leviathans 3” from a char. That just seems like it’s building a marine Tau list that either shoots you off the board or loses.
Given their buffed profile, for an IH army is there any reason for intercessors not to bring stalker bolt rifles? They can move and shoot at 36" with -3ap and dmg 2 which means they can threaten most anything. Since IH are always going to want to stay in devastator doctrine I'm not seeing the value in the regular rifles.
The reason IH flyers are good isn’t the wound table or the 6++, nice though they are, it’s the super doctrine.
Storm talons and hawks are armed with a bunch of heavy weapons and they lack potms. The super doctrine gives it to them (in effect) along with reroll 1s (which they’d rarely get usually, as they’re unsuited to sticking within bubbles), and of course another -1ap for devastator doctrine.
A flyer or two (or three!) combos well with the repulsor/leviathan castle because the weakness of that list is people hiding where it can’t see. Typically, those people will be unhappy to find a bunch of planes overhead, firing assault cannons that hit on 2s rerolling 1s. The fact that those planes are unusually tough only makes matters worse.
buddha wrote: Given their buffed profile, for an IH army is there any reason for intercessors not to bring stalker bolt rifles? They can move and shoot at 36" with -3ap and dmg 2 which means they can threaten most anything. Since IH are always going to want to stay in devastator doctrine I'm not seeing the value in the regular rifles.
Anti-horde.
You only get 1 shot/intercessor with Stalkers.
Normal and auto bolt rifles still have a place for clearing hordes/defending objectives.
Mean Stalker attacks from 5 intercessors are: 3.888 hit, 1.94 wound T4(2.59 T3), all wounded usually die(3+ or 4+ in cover get a 6+)
Bolt Rifle doubles those wounds but allows saves, auto bolt rifle tripples it.
Sure you will also have vehicles with high ROF weapons but range is more of a problem there as those vehicles are not going to want to babysit objective campers.
Yeah IH stalkers still aren't that great because of their low shot-count. Neither are the other options when you consider that they're likely to be staying in devastator mode. You can't really afford to use the 3CP strat to shoot characters because you're likely to have fairly low numbers of CPs.
I think the better choice for troops is probably infiltrators. If you're playing a gunline you want to keep the enemy from doing deep strike schenanigans to you. And it's handy to have some people to go and stand on midfield objectives too.
Target sighted is decent for Raven Guard though. From turn 2 onward you'll be getting mortal wounds on a 5+ on characters, which they won't enjoy at all. If your army features a lot of centurions and/or aggressors (which seems like a good idea) then you'll have enough dakka already really. It could be worth a unit of 10 intercessors with stalker bolt rifles in a double-battalion list. You'll probably have enough CPs to do it once or twice.
You could of course save your CPs and just get eliminators, for not all that much more ppm than intercessors. Their S5 guns will wound a lot of characters on a 2+.
One thing to note with stalker intercessors is that one 10 man blob of them is a serious mind game advantage. Any character that rears it's head is going to run the risk of getting blammed by 10 sniper stalkers. Yes it's a very expensive stratagem, but it's very effective at limiting enemy character movement and forcing them to play safe. They also make excellent sniper assistants to eliminators. ATM in my test list I am thinking of running 20 intercessors with stalkers, two 5 mans with one 10 man. Alongside two eliminator squads there is a lot of character hate going on and that's both a very serious direct gameplay threat, but also excellent at controlling enemy character movement which can have dramatic effects on their mobility and target selection.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: One thing to note with stalker intercessors is that one 10 man blob of them is a serious mind game advantage. Any character that rears it's head is going to run the risk of getting blammed by 10 sniper stalkers. Yes it's a very expensive stratagem, but it's very effective at limiting enemy character movement and forcing them to play safe. They also make excellent sniper assistants to eliminators. ATM in my test list I am thinking of running 20 intercessors with stalkers, two 5 mans with one 10 man. Alongside two eliminator squads there is a lot of character hate going on and that's both a very serious direct gameplay threat, but also excellent at controlling enemy character movement which can have dramatic effects on their mobility and target selection.
Yeah that's very true. There's actually not a whole lot that some of the really character-heavy armies can even do about the threat from snipers. Daemon-type lists need their many auras to function effectively. They might be able to hide them behind something and snake back, but it's pretty restrictive to do so.
I'm trying to figure out which would be better for Raven Guard. 6x5 man scout snipers or 3x3 Eliminators. The scouts have the advantage of being troops and filling out BN's, Eliminators can go out of LOS.
bmsattler wrote: I'm trying to figure out which would be better for Raven Guard. 6x5 man scout snipers or 3x3 Eliminators. The scouts have the advantage of being troops and filling out BN's, Eliminators can go out of LOS.
Eliminators massacre characters. Scouts are for board control and CPs.
So, given the sniper strat, what specific targets are you wasting that much on? I mean, I'd rather have a Arhiman alive with a dead squad of rubrics than a dead arhiman and a live squad of rubrics.
I may be wrong on this one, but I still see that 10 man blob with assault bolters doing 30 shots doing more work than 10 shots of d2 sniper fire.
Also, I'm fairly positive the meta will back me up on the theory that versus larger targets T6-8, especially with 4/5++, volume of fire wins over low shot high strength weapons most of the time.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, given the sniper strat, what specific targets are you wasting that much on? I mean, I'd rather have a Arhiman alive with a dead squad of rubrics than a dead arhiman and a live squad of rubrics.
I may be wrong on this one, but I still see that 10 man blob with assault bolters doing 30 shots doing more work than 10 shots of d2 sniper fire.
Also, I'm fairly positive the meta will back me up on the theory that versus larger targets T6-8, especially with 4/5++, volume of fire wins over low shot high strength weapons most of the time.
100% agree that assault bolters are for sure better overall than stalkers base. The conversation however gets interesting with Iron hands due to them having such strong synergies with stalker bolters, the mere threat of the stalker bolters doubling as snipers and you also have to take into account what the rest of your army is bringing. Do you NEED rate of fire from your intercessors or do you have that covered by the vehicles in your list? For me I am running 3x redemptors and a repulsor which put out respectable amounts of s5 ap2 1 damage. I also have another set up that has 3/6 aggressors/ for further dakka. In this set up I don't really require assault bolters from my infantry, but rather high power single shots that can be a real threat to light-medium vehicles and elite infantry (perfect target being primaris). Another key note is that as Iron Hands you can move and fire at no penalty and with free re-roll ones meaning they can leave character buff auras and not lose anything. heck you make entire Iron Hand lists without captains at all and still be effective due to re-roll city from heavy. If that is going to be as effective as a chapter master I don't know, but it is worth considering when building lists.
Rate of fire is king no doubt, but you can't just look at things in a vacuum. You need to build lists with synergy in mind to work together to create the most effective results. For example if the best mathematical option for every unit in your army was the anti tank option and you just kept taking the best option per unit without looking at the army as a whole you would end up with an army that is amazing against tanks, but the moment it sees a horde you are out of options because you didn't build the list as one whole working machine, but rather broke it down to the individual cogs.
Sterling191 wrote: 3x3 Eliminators are pretty much mandatory in Marine lists, regardless of Chapter. They're exquisitely good.
Just which variations of Eliminators are worth it the most. It really seems like the Instigator Bolt Carbine is the best option for the Sergeant since it keeps the Eliminators out of Combat where they belong. For the most part, the Bolt Sniper Rifle seems to be the way to go unless you are shooting corner case items. Those Mortal Wounds on a 5+ are pretty great when using Guided Aim. If something else comes out that boosts to-wound further (Imperial Fists Doctrine is rumored to do so), it just becomes even more insane. I dunno.
Sterling191 wrote: 3x3 Eliminators are pretty much mandatory in Marine lists, regardless of Chapter. They're exquisitely good.
Just which variations of Eliminators are worth it the most. It really seems like the Instigator Bolt Carbine is the best option for the Sergeant since it keeps the Eliminators out of Combat where they belong. For the most part, the Bolt Sniper Rifle seems to be the way to go unless you are shooting corner case items. Those Mortal Wounds on a 5+ are pretty great when using Guided Aim. If something else comes out that boosts to-wound further (Imperial Fists Doctrine is rumored to do so), it just becomes even more insane. I dunno.
Entirely depends on how the math interacts with re-rolls. I did read that baseline with no re-rolls or modifiers that the sergeant buffing the other two was a bit better. Now what if you are Iron Hands who can natively re-roll ones? What if your are salamanders with a re-roll to hit and to wound for free? I've not seen the full numbers laid out and i'd be very interesting to see them. Now while eliminators I don't think will be getting charged often and may be limited in where the free move on overwatch can take them (I'd imagine they'd often be elevated with limited space to run to if charged) it is still nice to know you have that tool kit option from the carbine to give you that little move. Depending on how the math works out on buffing or shooting the sergeant I think the two extra points would be worth having the option to shoot and scoot.
Bolt sniper all the way. The math gets hilariously convoluted with some of the permutations, but sub T10 and/or without accuracy maluses you’re pretty set to unload all three barrels at most targets.
Sterling191 wrote: 3x3 Eliminators are pretty much mandatory in Marine lists, regardless of Chapter. They're exquisitely good.
Just which variations of Eliminators are worth it the most. It really seems like the Instigator Bolt Carbine is the best option for the Sergeant since it keeps the Eliminators out of Combat where they belong. For the most part, the Bolt Sniper Rifle seems to be the way to go unless you are shooting corner case items. Those Mortal Wounds on a 5+ are pretty great when using Guided Aim. If something else comes out that boosts to-wound further (Imperial Fists Doctrine is rumored to do so), it just becomes even more insane. I dunno.
Straight up all Bolt Snipers.
Bolt carbine completely removes a large amount of potential damage.
If your eliminators are even in danger of being charged; then either everything has gone very wrong/you are already going to lose the game, or you took the carbine on your sgt and the previous statement is true.
Infiltrators are also an auto-include with Eliminators: set them up 9-18" away from the eliminators as a buffer to prevent any enemy units from dropping in anywhere near the eliminators. You only need a 5-man squad for this too, which saves you some points.
I'm glad that Raven Guard eliminators are so awesome vs characters. You can even give their sergeant Korvidae bolts so he can fire Mortis rounds at targets he can't see.
Here's a shot at a 1750 point Raven Guard army.
Battalion 1
Shrike 130
Librarian in Phobos Armour 101
Force Sword
Camo Cloak
6 Aggressors 222
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
So the plan is to give the Chaplain the Master of Ambush warlord trait as a bonus. Then if you go first he can cast it at the beginning of round 1. If it works he teleports himself and the 6 centurions to 9" from a target. Meanwhile Shrike uses the infiltrators strat to run after them 15-20". Shrike can charge in first to prevent overwatch. The Centurions plod forwards, gun down the screens then charge in with +2 to their charge range and 6" pile in and consolidate moves.
It works almost as well going second. Deep strike the centurions and probably send the aggressors with the Chaplain, but behind the infiltrator screen. Drop the centurions in near the Chaplain and off you go again, though you have to do a 7" charge.
It's very strong that the Litany and the teleport warlord trait are both at the start of battle round. You can decide to do the litany first and then teleport where needed, according to whether the litany succeeded or not.
You can potentially throw a few relics around. The lieutenant can have the relic rifle with 3 shots that can target characters. Various relics work for the librarian, who you could either give his usual discipline or the RG one. I quite like the power he can have to make his force sword S9 ap-4, and it could be handy to take the teleport power, though he should probably just be getting CPs back. The Chaplain obviously gets the Crozuis.
Meanwhile there's an awful lot of dakka in the list, and an awful lot of ways to snipe characters. One thing that's clearly missing is a way to kill Eldar flyers though, beyond just firing melta guns at them from centurions and hoping for the best. Shrike might finish off a damaged one. But to be honest nobody is much good at this. I think you mainly try to kill their infantry... but good luck with that. Nobody seemst to have an answer to these things, judging by Tony and Mani's performances at the LGT.
Mandragola wrote: . One thing that's clearly missing is a way to kill Eldar flyers though, beyond just firing melta guns at them from centurions and hoping for the best. Shrike might finish off a damaged one. But to be honest nobody is much good at this. I think you mainly try to kill their infantry... but good luck with that. Nobody seemst to have an answer to these things, judging by Tony and Mani's performances at the LGT.
IH stormhawks if eldar flyers start popping up more after LGT. +2 to hit them and they are -2 to hit you. A smash captain or two helps as well.
Theres also just the hope they get hit with a nerf in the faq
I'm not sure there's a solution out there that lets you actually kill Eldar planes. Maybe something like loads of deep striking RG devastator centurions. Even that might not be enough.
In my list I could swap out the Librarian for a smash captain and maybe go for a Chaplain with a jump pack instead of a Primaris one. Then with Shrike charging in first to negate overwatch I could put a few down.
DoomMouse wrote: I notice raven guard successor chapters can now allow assault cents to deep strike within flamer range for 1CP. This has potential.
6 man unit on the drop will put out 42 S4 AP-1 auto hits and 72 AP-1 bolter shots (as you'll have changed to tac doctrine by then)
Just ludicrous! The flamers alone will do 7 wounds to an eldar flyer straight away.
Thats actually plan B. Plan A is using the infiltrate WLT to get them within 9" of the enemy deployment zone turn 1, freebie advance and move em pre-game, then move, shoot (possibly advance if you've pre-positioned the appropriate WL) and charge
As an RG player, I think people are writing off the RG super-doctrine too quickly.
The big weakness of all sniper weapons, in my experience, is the low strength. I’m pretty much used to ignoring sniper shots because the ones that hit usually can’t come up with a 4+ to wound. Str 5 on Eliminators weapons helps against the widespread T4, but with so few shots you really need every one to come through with the wound roll.
+1 to wound characters is huge. With a lieutenant standing by, that means a str5 Eliminator shot will wound a T4 character on a 2, rerolling 1s—aka a 1/36 chance of failure.
The RG strat also makes the most efficient use of Target Sighted, Stalker Bolt Rifles are only Str4 too. If you’re spending 3CP, you really want to max the wound rolls. Seems way more important to me than the IH ability to move and shoot.
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bmsattler wrote: I'm trying to figure out which would be better for Raven Guard. 6x5 man scout snipers or 3x3 Eliminators. The scouts have the advantage of being troops and filling out BN's, Eliminators can go out of LOS.
Idk, the general consensus of my flgs group is while iron hands is definitely super strong Ravenguard is nothing to sneeze at. I think ravenguard will be the army to watch out for, they have harliquin level tricks in their pockets lol.
DoomMouse wrote: I notice raven guard successor chapters can now allow assault cents to deep strike within flamer range for 1CP. This has potential.
6 man unit on the drop will put out 42 S4 AP-1 auto hits and 72 AP-1 bolter shots (as you'll have changed to tac doctrine by then)
Just ludicrous! The flamers alone will do 7 wounds to an eldar flyer straight away.
Thats actually plan B. Plan A is using the infiltrate WLT to get them within 9" of the enemy deployment zone turn 1, freebie advance and move em pre-game, then move, shoot (possibly advance if you've pre-positioned the appropriate WL) and charge
I quite like the idea of doing plan A and plan B simultaneously only about 600 pts to deal the enemy an enormous body blow
Can't be done simultaneously. Your reserves come in on turn 2.
That's why I just have one Centurion squad in my list and a squad of aggressors. The Aggressors will use the infiltrate strat to advance forwards on the first battle round if going first, or deep strike if going second.
I'm kind of excited to try raven guard now but I think it just stems from my love of invictors. I think they might be the best chapter for them cause you can support them with infiltrating squads and characters. I just want to put 3 invictors, a squad of cents and 2 chars in someones face turn 1
Mandragola wrote: I'm not sure there's a solution out there that lets you actually kill Eldar planes. Maybe something like loads of deep striking RG devastator centurions. Even that might not be enough.
In my list I could swap out the Librarian for a smash captain and maybe go for a Chaplain with a jump pack instead of a Primaris one. Then with Shrike charging in first to negate overwatch I could put a few down.
IH xiphon interceptor with blessing of the machine god. It hits eldar flyers on 2+ with +1 to hit, and can re-roll 1s when the devastator doctrine is active.
Mandragola wrote: I'm not sure there's a solution out there that lets you actually kill Eldar planes. Maybe something like loads of deep striking RG devastator centurions. Even that might not be enough.
In my list I could swap out the Librarian for a smash captain and maybe go for a Chaplain with a jump pack instead of a Primaris one. Then with Shrike charging in first to negate overwatch I could put a few down.
IH xiphon interceptor with blessing of the machine god. It hits eldar flyers on 2+ with +1 to hit, and can re-roll 1s when the devastator doctrine is active.
That’s a way to kill one Eldar plane if you go first, not a way to beat an army with 8 of them.
Mandragola wrote: I'm not sure there's a solution out there that lets you actually kill Eldar planes. Maybe something like loads of deep striking RG devastator centurions. Even that might not be enough.
In my list I could swap out the Librarian for a smash captain and maybe go for a Chaplain with a jump pack instead of a Primaris one. Then with Shrike charging in first to negate overwatch I could put a few down.
IH xiphon interceptor with blessing of the machine god. It hits eldar flyers on 2+ with +1 to hit, and can re-roll 1s when the devastator doctrine is active.
That’s a way to kill one Eldar plane if you go first, not a way to beat an army with 8 of them.
Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.
Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.
This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.
It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.
Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.
Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.
This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.
It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.
Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.
FWIW, it is a solution to what was asked. It isn't like they're that much more than 3 Stalkers either, which is the cheaper suggestion too.
Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.
This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.
It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.
Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.
I provided a possible solution. Can you do the same ? And it shouldnt cost more than ~100 (whatever your currency is), because no one will bother to buy anything that is ~400, unless they already have it.
Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.
This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.
It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.
Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.
3 Xiphons at £89 each is £267.
8 eldar planes at £45 each is £360.
So people are willing to buy 8 planes for 360 to keep up with the meta but spending almost £100 less to solve the problem is unthinkable?
Why not 2-3 iron hands stormhawks instead? If you include the ironstone and the new iron father they can cluster round them for -2 to hit, 5+ invuln, -1 damage, 6+++ if the eldars go 1st. They'd really struggle to chew through that.
I think people are undervaluing Stalkers full stop tbh. They offer great firepower and resilience for their points + that strat for them is beast.
I think you'll be seeing triple Stalkers in IH lists if flyers stay big (and even if they don't, given the number of other top level units that have the fly keyword).
Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.
This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.
It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.
Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.
3 Xiphons at £89 each is £267.
8 eldar planes at £45 each is £360.
So people are willing to buy 8 planes for 360 to keep up with the meta but spending almost £100 less to solve the problem is unthinkable?
Point taken - meta chasers are insane. I guess 3 Xiphons are a legitimate suggestion then.
I just assumed everyone was talking hypothetical list wars since not a single one of you are actually going to go and prove in a tournament that 3 Xiphons will solve the problem
Go with 3 xiphon interceptors. Its impossible that every eldar flyer is more than 12" away from them, then they are only -1 to hit. With 8 of them you should be able to move block, and destroy some of them.
This is how I know you're talking theory, not practice. After all, nobody will 'go with' 3 Xiphon Interceptors realistically. Not unless they already own them. Possible...but not likely.
It's kind of silly to suggest a nearly $400 set of kits as an untested but possible solution to a temporary meta situation. You only suggest these insane things if you're playing Listhammer and not an actual game of 40k. Sure, from a tactica perspective, Xiphons might solve the problem.
Anybody out there going to commit to buying them as the solution? Doubtful.
3 Xiphons at £89 each is £267.
8 eldar planes at £45 each is £360.
So people are willing to buy 8 planes for 360 to keep up with the meta but spending almost £100 less to solve the problem is unthinkable?
Point taken - meta chasers are insane. I guess 3 Xiphons are a legitimate suggestion then.
I just assumed everyone was talking hypothetical list wars since not a single one of you are actually going to go and prove in a tournament that 3 Xiphons will solve the problem
Personally, I will go with Stormtalons with Skyhammer missiles.
Disclaimer: I could be described a meta chaser, and I agree it’s a bit mad. But it also allowed me to go 5:0 at the LGT last weekend (and I didn't get drawn against Tony or Mani, which helped too). As it happens I’ve got one Xiphon, painted up for my Crimson Fists, and an unpainted Stormhawk. If I were to make an iron hands list I’d have some decisions to make.
Xiphons pay for POTMS that Iron Hands get anyway. Stormhawks are a lot cheaper. You want a unit that can both handle flyers and help shoot up stuff on the ground against “normal” armies. A Stormhawk does those jobs fairly well, thanks to its two assault cannons, but a Xiphon is very monotask.
One thing a Xiphon does pretty well is shoot up Iron Hands Repulsors. If those are going to be common, it’s a major point in the Xiphon’s favour.
A Stormtalon might also work. Better vs stuff on the ground but worse against planes than the Stormhawk, it has the advantage of being able to charge and tie things up in melee. One of these with a Typhoon missile launcher could well be a decent option.
Stalkers are a cheap source of tough AA, which is great. I think they’re a bit inflexible though. They aren’t what you want against plaguebearers.
I think that a hard cap on three flyer models in organised play is needed. Changing their price could help but actually I think their cost is about right individually. The problem comes when you line up 8 of the things so your opponent can’t move at all.
I would wait until the big FAQ comes out. No point in investing in anti flyer meta if GW then comes out and limits you to 3 Flyers or changes the rules so flyers dont block movement.
Xiphons pay for POTMS that Iron Hands get anyway. Stormhawks are a lot cheaper. You want a unit that can both handle flyers and help shoot up stuff on the ground against “normal” armies. A Stormhawk does those jobs fairly well, thanks to its two assault cannons, but a Xiphon is very monotask.
How is a xiphon monotask ? It hits any unit, which hasnt FLY, on 3+.
Xiphons pay for POTMS that Iron Hands get anyway. Stormhawks are a lot cheaper. You want a unit that can both handle flyers and help shoot up stuff on the ground against “normal” armies. A Stormhawk does those jobs fairly well, thanks to its two assault cannons, but a Xiphon is very monotask.
How is a xiphon monotask ? It hits any unit, which hasnt FLY, on 3+.
Shot count. It’s good at killing big things, and especially good against flyers, but no use if you come against a load of infantry. The stormhawk and stormtalon both have assault cannons, and those 12 S6 ap-2 shots ought to a do something – including against Eldar flyers.
Even so I think you can make case for taking a Xiphon – and indeed I’ve got one. But if you took 3 I think you’d find your army was inflexible.
There’s also the standard problem of flyers crashing. Eldar ones are good partly because they don’t generally crash, thanks to getting to turn twice.
Anyone got experience in good all-primaris lists, I find it really hard to make it work more comp. Antitank/mobility issues.. tanks are super expensive if spammed, very hard to squeeze calgar even in 1,5k and 2k lists..
Probably best keep the all-primaris conversation in this tactica thread too?
Xirax wrote: Anyone got experience in good all-primaris lists, I find it really hard to make it work more comp. Antitank/mobility issues.. tanks are super expensive if spammed, very hard to squeeze calgar even in 1,5k and 2k lists..
Probably best keep the all-primaris conversation in this tactica thread too?
I'll tell you how this did after a FLGS tourney coming up on Sat:
Sons of Medusa(basically just Iron Hands, been playing them since 5th edition) 1998 pts:
Pimaris Chaplain W/ Benediction of Fury, and Mantra of Strength.
3-man Eliminators w/Bolt Snipers
6-man Hellblasters w/Incinerators
Executioner w/heavy Las destroyer +rocket pod
Repulsor w/both Onslaghts, 4x fragstorm, 2x krakstorm, rocket pod, heavy stubber, and twin las.
Going to roll for warlord trait and powers, chaplain is warlord. Might swap benediction of fury for a different relic if I can get the supplement before the games.
Xirax wrote: Anyone got experience in good all-primaris lists, I find it really hard to make it work more comp. Antitank/mobility issues.. tanks are super expensive if spammed, very hard to squeeze calgar even in 1,5k and 2k lists..
Probably best keep the all-primaris conversation in this tactica thread too?
I'll tell you how this did after a FLGS tourney coming up on Sat:
Sons of Medusa(basically just Iron Hands, been playing them since 5th edition) 1998 pts:
Pimaris Chaplain W/ Benediction of Fury, and Mantra of Strength.
3-man Eliminators w/Bolt Snipers
6-man Hellblasters w/Incinerators
Executioner w/heavy Las destroyer +rocket pod
Repulsor w/both Onslaghts, 4x fragstorm, 2x krakstorm, rocket pod, heavy stubber, and twin las.
Going to roll for warlord trait and powers, chaplain is warlord. Might swap benediction of fury for a different relic if I can get the supplement before the games.
Why do you play this as IH, with so few vehicles and heavy weapons
demontalons wrote: Has anyone found a nice unit composition to best take advantage of the Indomitus Crusade formation? Mostly for the grey shield warlord trait.
Too situational or is it a good way to adapt to any situation?
Its nice in a brigade full of Intercessors (30+ models). For 2 CP you gain very beneficial rule for a turn for all of them. Seems like a worth it trade.
Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?
You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.
They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?
You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.
They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.
Screening is a big issue with that. Sure, you can in theory pop a Knight on the charge. (I'll check the math in a moment.) But a single squad of Guardsmen makes that strategy useless.
As for damage dealt versus a Knight...
20 attacks
10 hits
15/2 wounds
75/12 or 25/4 unsaved
75/4 damage, or 18.75
If you can finagle hit rerolls (Chapter Master in your Pod?) you can probably do it in.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?
You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.
They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.
Screening is a big issue with that. Sure, you can in theory pop a Knight on the charge. (I'll check the math in a moment.) But a single squad of Guardsmen makes that strategy useless.
As for damage dealt versus a Knight...
20 attacks
10 hits
15/2 wounds
75/12 or 25/4 unsaved
75/4 damage, or 18.75
If you can finagle hit rerolls (Chapter Master in your Pod?) you can probably do it in.
Can't you just pop Honour the Chapter and solve it that way?
Alternatively, you could grab Helbrecht in the pod. He's got the inferior-style old Chapter Master, but he's got his +1S aura so you'd be wounding on 3s.
Alternatively alternatively, just run Marshal Law in the pod. 7 attacks on the charge (4 base, 5 for charging, 6 for stratagem, 7 for Vigilus warlord trait) rerolling 1s to hit and all wound rolls with unmodified 6s to hit generating 2 hits. If I've done the maths correctly (see spoiler tag below) that's 25.5 wounds with the fight again stratagem, and he's cheaper than the Veterans anyway.
Spoiler:
7 attacks rerolling 1s with exploding 6s
7*(2/3)+(((1/6)*(2/3))*7)+((7/36)*7) is 6.805555…hits.
4s to wound rerolling fails
6.805556*0.75=5.104167
AP-3, so Knight saves on 6+
5.104167*(5/6)=4.253472
Hammer is D3, so times three:
4.253472*3=12.76042
Times two for fight again
12.76042*2=25.52083
EDIT: With Helbrecht it'd go up to a whopping 29.6 wounds without the fight again stratagem.
The thing is that you don't have to drop it in during turn one; as long as your Chaplain is still alive you can threaten the enemy with a 33" "be in here and die" combo (14" move on Chaplain + 6" turbo boost + 6" aura range + 7" charge (and you're Templars so you've got rerolls for a better than 7" average charge).
I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
Yesterday I saw an even sillier idea (that will get removed once that Legends rule goes live):
Use the 400pt character Land Raider Excelsior and give it the ambush warlord trait. Why just bring up just 6 assault centurions when you can bring up 9 plus a banner or apothecary to support them and a tank to soak overwatch before the cents charge?
Nothing says sneaky ambush like a giant Land Raider, slow Assault Centurions, and a giant banner
For a somewhat more realistic RG all in assault army, what about allying in BA? If going the turn 1 charge you aren’t really leveraging doctrines anyways, so why not grab the super smash captain and maybe a Libby dread? And with that, you might as well also add in a 32 or 17 too to feed cps for all those strats. Those guys can hold the back field while most of your army is smashing things and the BA guys let you tag fliers which the assault cents alone can’t.
bort wrote: Yesterday I saw an even sillier idea (that will get removed once that Legends rule goes live):
Legends rule? Sorry, I'm not completely up on the rumored FAQ and other changes. What will this change?
No more index only or special release stuff allowed in tournaments, they will be flagged for Legends games only. So for marines, that drops several of their bike options and TL autocannon dreadnought arms at the least. Along with those special character tanks I’d never heard of before yesterday.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?
You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.
They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.
Screening is a big issue with that. Sure, you can in theory pop a Knight on the charge. (I'll check the math in a moment.) But a single squad of Guardsmen makes that strategy useless.
As for damage dealt versus a Knight...
20 attacks
10 hits
15/2 wounds
75/12 or 25/4 unsaved
75/4 damage, or 18.75
If you can finagle hit rerolls (Chapter Master in your Pod?) you can probably do it in.
Chapter Champ with a Thunder Hammer would probably be good as it would get a bonus vs the Knight (they're always made Characters).
GreatGranpapy wrote: Thinking of experimenting with a stormhawk with my UM. Not as good if it was IH, but it can benefit a lot while I'm in either Tac or Dev.
I'm pretty sold on stormhawks myself but that's from an IH perspective. Theres a good amount of fly around now and the bonuses to hit combined with the penalties to be hit are pretty good. I'm just playing around with load outs atm. I like stormcannom and typhoon for a good mix. I ran it on the mathhamer site and typhoon is very slightly better than skyhammer against -2 eldar flyers and a lot better against ground targets. I want to pair it with las talons but then were at the 200pt mark
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Finally got my Codex today (better late than never!), couldn't we have some fun with the Black Templars Vigilus detachment and a Bike Chaplain?
You could get five Company Veterans in a Drop Pod with a TH/SS loadout for 225 points. Combined with a Bike Chaplain, which you'd probably want as Black Templars anyway to give your +2 to charge rolls aura as much mobility as possible, you have a 26" aura of "anything you don't screen from my Drop Pod is dead". The Veterans would have 20 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge (2 base, 3 for charging, 4 for stratagem) with rerolling wounds and a 3++ to back them up during Overwatch.
They're fragile as mad and might very well only get to hit one thing, but that thing is going down, hard. Plus, you've still got 5 spots left in the Drop Pod to drop something else in at the same time if you want.
Screening is a big issue with that. Sure, you can in theory pop a Knight on the charge. (I'll check the math in a moment.) But a single squad of Guardsmen makes that strategy useless.
As for damage dealt versus a Knight...
20 attacks
10 hits
15/2 wounds
75/12 or 25/4 unsaved
75/4 damage, or 18.75
If you can finagle hit rerolls (Chapter Master in your Pod?) you can probably do it in.
Chapter Champ with a Thunder Hammer would probably be good as it would get a bonus vs the Knight (they're always made Characters).
Chapter Champs can't have the BT Vigilus buffs though, and only has 4 attacks base.
Now the Emperor's Champion, on the other hand...
With the Vigilus Warlord Trait, Honour the Chapter (or, perhaps more likely, the "fight again at death" strat), and the Vigilus charge buff you're looking at 14.7 wounds to a Knight on the charge. True, this is a bunch of CP to only half-kill a Knight, but the Emperor's Champion is a 75 point model.
Point him at anything below T7 and we get 7 wounds with AP-3 pre-save that each do d3 damage, and this is with only the Vigilus charge stratagem and Warlord Trait. That's 7 wounds against a Character with a 4++. He'll kill a non-Tzeench Daemon Prince before the Prince gets to swing back, and he'll almost kill a Tzeench Prince that hasn't got a 3++.
For only 75 points he sure can ruin somebody's day pretty hard.
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
Yesterday I saw an even sillier idea (that will get removed once that Legends rule goes live):
Use the 400pt character Land Raider Excelsior and give it the ambush warlord trait. Why just bring up just 6 assault centurions when you can bring up 9 plus a banner or apothecary to support them and a tank to soak overwatch before the cents charge?
Nothing says sneaky ambush like a giant Land Raider, slow Assault Centurions, and a giant banner
Lol, top marks.
So you can teleport the Excelsior full of (for example) 3 centurions and a character of some kind, plus another infantry unit of your choice.
Having a librarian teleport another one is funny but not so great, because the guys inside can't get out. Better to teleport a chaplain dreadnought with the +2" charge litany running.
Meanwhile Salamanders have come up with a totally obnoxious stratagem. It's like a reverse character keyword on a unit, so the enemy can't shoot anyone else who is further away. But you can use it on a unit that's hidden, or on a character who isn't the closest, and the enemy basically can't shoot at all. Ok...
Most play tested edition supposedly, despite a stratagem that even a 1st day intern would should recognize as broken with no testing needed on the table, making it into a final draft of a $30 dollar book...
EDIT, I guess we can only hope the leaked image is fake
I've heard people who are fairly well connected who stated that the leaks don't look like anything they have heard people talking about. I'm skeptical in the extreme of the Salamanders/Imperial Fists stuff that isn't from GW.
Well we had the salamanders rumours and now we've got pictures showing exactly the same stuff. And Valrack has shown an image of the spines of all the books - though irritatingly with the plastic still on the IF one.
However, I do find the potato cam thing bizarre. How, in 2019, is it possible to take pictures that bad?
If they're coming in October we'll have them for sure before too long.
Mandragola wrote: Well we had the salamanders rumours and now we've got pictures showing exactly the same stuff. And Valrack has shown an image of the spines of all the books - though irritatingly with the plastic still on the IF one.
The plastic wrap is the insane bit. What sort of person wouldn't instantly open it?
Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.
bort wrote: Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.
They just need to FAQ out non-los cheesing. Codex Marines arent exactly overflowing with durable infantry options.
bort wrote: Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.
They just need to FAQ out non-los cheesing. Codex Marines arent exactly overflowing with durable infantry options.
Yeah, if FAQed to only work when the firer can actually target the sacrificial unit then it’s fine, maybe even underpowered. But until FAQed it’s better than IH durability, cause who needs durability when nothing can target you?
bort wrote: Yesterday I saw an even sillier idea (that will get removed once that Legends rule goes live):
Legends rule? Sorry, I'm not completely up on the rumored FAQ and other changes. What will this change?
No more index only or special release stuff allowed in tournaments, they will be flagged for Legends games only. So for marines, that drops several of their bike options and TL autocannon dreadnought arms at the least. Along with those special character tanks I’d never heard of before yesterday.
A note: TL Autocannon Dreads are still legal*, they just cost 6pts more and are in HS, not Elites, thanks to the Forge World rules for Mortis Dreadnoughts.
bort wrote: Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.
Wouldn't they still be targetable if they were the closest? Just position accordingly to avoid letting a character take advantage of this. Don't walk into the trap since you have a full movement phase to expect it.
bort wrote: Bleh, that Salamander thing is stupid if real. I mean, the intent is good, but after assassin armies etc, you’d think GW would have an idea what’ll happen if they print something that blocks targeting without restrictions. 2cp to make you shoot a smoked screen unit before Aggressors is fine. 2cp on a hidden char to make everything within 6” untargetable is ridiculous.
Wouldn't they still be targetable if they were the closest? Just position accordingly to avoid letting a character take advantage of this. Don't walk into the trap since you have a full movement phase to expect it.
exactly, the strat may very well force you to shake up your target priority, but I doubt it'll prevent you from shooting very often
Maybe I’m misreading it, but it says nothing within 6” can be shot unless the target is closer than the stratagemed unit, right? So you can stratagem a character and put the character in front. Then to protect the character you either keep him out of LoS or put another out of LoS unit closer than him so the char can’t be shot either.
So yeah, if you can swing around wide enough the char is no longer the closest you can avoid it, but that’s the only way to shoot. If they have a couple chars they can fairly easily cover multiple possible shooting angles and pick to strat vs whichever you came from.
Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face
bort wrote: Maybe I’m misreading it, but it says nothing within 6” can be shot unless the target is closer than the stratagemed unit, right? So you can stratagem a character and put the character in front. Then to protect the character you either keep him out of LoS or put another out of LoS unit closer than him so the char can’t be shot either.
So yeah, if you can swing around wide enough the char is no longer the closest you can avoid it, but that’s the only way to shoot. If they have a couple chars they can fairly easily cover multiple possible shooting angles and pick to strat vs whichever you came from.
You have a whole deployment and movement phase to see the plan telegraphed before the Stratagem is even cast.
So just shoot everything not marked by it if you can't move in range. Or hide behind LoS yourself. Or move forward and punish that character for being out of position.
This isn't some silver bullet of awesome. It's powerful, but almost every meta list turns it off pretty quickly.
I think one of the bigger benefits of the stratagem is in its threat more than its use, especially if you can position some close in units well while keeping some backfield Devastators, each with a hard to hurt unit. Your opponent then has to change up their movement to hurt the close units and lose out on targeting the backfield units, or ignore the close units and let them advance unimpeded.
Khornatedemon wrote: Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face
Saly's are proably gonna be most popular as sucessors with that added 3 inch range.
Khornatedemon wrote: Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face
Saly's are proably gonna be most popular as sucessors with that added 3 inch range.
I'm really hoping theres a second part to the chapter tactic that does just that
Khornatedemon wrote: Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face
Saly's are proably gonna be most popular as sucessors with that added 3 inch range.
I'm really hoping theres a second part to the chapter tactic that does just that
There's not going to be, and Salamanders will continue to be bad as usual.
Khornatedemon wrote: Grain of salt but spikey bits is saying that supposedly adraxs warlord trait allows you to re roll the shot roll for flamers within 6". Hes also claiming the doctrine bonus is as rumored with the +1 to wound with Flamers and meltas and is called the promethean cult. Still doesnt help the short range of flamers so sad face
Saly's are proably gonna be most popular as sucessors with that added 3 inch range.
I'm really hoping theres a second part to the chapter tactic that does just that
There's not going to be, and Salamanders will continue to be bad as usual.
sadly sallies two weapons of choice are both weapons that aren't that great this edition
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.
How do you figure Aggressors are able to target units further away? They're all starting off at the same spot and Hurricane Bolters are firing their full 12 shots at the 24" mark.
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.
How do you figure Aggressors are able to target units further away? They're all starting off at the same spot and Hurricane Bolters are firing their full 12 shots at the 24" mark.
Being a DA player, never really looked at Cents, wasn't thinking about bolter discipline on a moving Cent. Flamers are wasted though (probably don't want to kill what you want to charge) but because of points, I think I'm still going to opt for Aggressors. They are a little more mobile too.
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.
How do you figure Aggressors are able to target units further away? They're all starting off at the same spot and Hurricane Bolters are firing their full 12 shots at the 24" mark.
Being a DA player, never really looked at Cents, wasn't thinking about bolter discipline on a moving Cent. Flamers are wasted though (probably don't want to kill what you want to charge) but because of points, I think I'm still going to opt for Aggressors. They are a little more mobile too.
They're more mobile by themselves, but there's enough Strats and such (as well as Ravens existing) that I don't think it's an issue.
Xirax wrote: Anyone got experience in good all-primaris lists, I find it really hard to make it work more comp. Antitank/mobility issues.. tanks are super expensive if spammed, very hard to squeeze calgar even in 1,5k and 2k lists..
Probably best keep the all-primaris conversation in this tactica thread too?
I'll tell you how this did after a FLGS tourney coming up on Sat:
Sons of Medusa(basically just Iron Hands, been playing them since 5th edition) 1998 pts:
Pimaris Chaplain W/ Benediction of Fury, and Mantra of Strength.
3-man Eliminators w/Bolt Snipers
6-man Hellblasters w/Incinerators
Executioner w/heavy Las destroyer +rocket pod
Repulsor w/both Onslaghts, 4x fragstorm, 2x krakstorm, rocket pod, heavy stubber, and twin las.
Going to roll for warlord trait and powers, chaplain is warlord. Might swap benediction of fury for a different relic if I can get the supplement before the games.
Round 2 just finished. Michigan GT primer scenario 1 then 3, 5 is next.
Won round 1 vs genestealer cults. He null deployed and I won initiative letting him go first. Cut down most units with focus fire(forgetting to declare shots on multiple targets most of the time). I only lost 1 unit and a few models from some others. Bracketed one of the repulsors.
Tied second round vs chaos knights. Had 3 combat squads of intercessors left at end of game(on 2 objectives). He had 2 of 4 knights left.
Update: lost roumd 3 vs Orks. 3 mork/gorkanhauts(2 of one o e of other) snakebites. Mission type wouldn't allow me to concentrate fire and was outranged by a significant amount 27 vp differential. Roflstomped.
- Lord of Deceit to reposition the Eliminators and the Captain.
- Stealthy for better survivability
- +3 Range to better leverage Bolter Discipline and Stealthy
- Whirlwind to help against screens (shooting twice with Suppresion Fire Stratagem, if necessary)
- Might of Heroes to buff the Warsuit/Captain/Librarian when engaged in CC
I was thinking of getting another LT to cover more of the board with their aura or another Whirlwind to deal with GEQ.
I'd say Thunderfire cannon over whirlwinds as they also have the tremmer shells slowing down those lists that want to rush you and can give your intercessors more time to chew through the chaff.
- Lord of Deceit to reposition the Eliminators and the Captain.
- Stealthy for better survivability
- +3 Range to better leverage Bolter Discipline and Stealthy
- Whirlwind to help against screens (shooting twice with Suppresion Fire Stratagem, if necessary)
- Might of Heroes to buff the Warsuit/Captain/Librarian when engaged in CC
I was thinking of getting another LT to cover more of the board with their aura or another Whirlwind to deal with GEQ.
A few things:
1) Always give your intercessor sergeants chainswords if you aren't taking any of the other melee weapons. They are a free upgrade and give you extra attacks. The base kit doesn't come with them but chainsword bits aren't hard to find in old marine kits or on bitz stores.
2) I would give the phobos captain the vox espiritum and upgrade him to chapter master. Primaris captains with the vox relic are the best CMs for successors IMO. A 9" aura of reroll any hits is hard to pass up. Lord of Deceit is a nice trick but an obvious one. I have found for phobos captains specifically Marksman's Honours is a nice one since at 4 damage he can one shot a lot of support HQs with his gun. Though to be honest a lot of the SM warlord traits are rather good so use what you want.
3) I am not a huge fan of the instigator bolt carbine on eliminator sergeants myself. I have used eliminators a lot since shadowspear came out and they rarely get charged. It is usually rather easy to just screen them with other troops are just infiltrate them on the top floor of ruins.
4) If you are looking for another HQ to add to the list I would look at a more aggressive piece like a chaplain or captain. Take the old marine version and give them a jump pack or a bike if you want. There are a lot of good relic weapons and warlord traits you can give them with hero of the chapter.
Ice_can wrote: I'd say Thunderfire cannon over whirlwinds as they also have the tremmer shells slowing down those lists that want to rush you and can give your intercessors more time to chew through the chaff.
Agreed, Thunderfire cannons are great. The strat is brutal against the right opponent.
Great advice, I'll definitely change the Relic on the captain and make him the Chapter Master.
Lord of Deceit seems really strong to me, if used carefully. Being able to just redeploy pretty much anywhere on the table, coupled with the fact that Executioner Rounds don't need LOS and you getting free cover through Stealthy means you can pull off some nice shenanigans. If you play against the same opponents a lot, they will, of course, learn to anticipate this to some degree, but I really want to see how it plays out.
Do devastator centurions outperform boltstorm aggressors if you are playing iron hands?
Having them get the reroll of 1's for firing the heavy bolter as well as given it -2 AP seems to be really good. They still have a nasty amount of strength 4 shots too but I am mainly focusing on the buffs they receive from Iron hands and debating whether or not that puts them above aggressors in said list.
What do you all think? And don't forget the centurions ignore cover saves.
If aggressors are better despite these buffs I would prefer to take them as that would free up more heavy support slots for my army...
BrianDavion wrote: where you using the new iron hands codex supplement that game?
I was, but was not familiar enough with the strats to make very good use of them. Only one I used was the Iron Mind strat when my chaplain got hit with a weirdboy's smite.
The list was not tailored towards winning, more to see how it would do and I learned 2 things while getting another confirmed for me:
1) I need to study and use strats more often/more efficiently. I forgot all about Orbital bombardment until Turn 3 of my last game, and my warlord died litterally the fight phase before I was going to ise it(on the very last attack a morkanaught swung at him.
2) I don't have the mental endurance for a multi-day GT. By the end of the third game I was exhausted and my wife remarked that I was slurring slightly.
What I confirmed: Iron Hands supplement benefits old marines far more than primaris. You need the lascannons hidden in tac squads, moving and firing every turn. Most everything that oldmarines have are soo much better with the abilities and strats. And, while frighteningly resilient; 6+FNP is not at all game breaking.
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Azuza001 wrote: You were outranged/out gunned by orks?! Wow. Impressive.....
Edit:i released that sounded mean, i didn't mean it that way. I ment it as a compliment to the ork player. Not a diss on you K. Kel.
No offense taken, Ork player took top place. He had 3 ''anaughts and a SAG in a dreadwall formation. All well supported. He hid his grots and boyz, only da jump-ing his tank bustaz up turn 1 and using a strat to double fire. Between that, dakkadakkadakka, snakebites re-roll 1's to hit, and some exeptional luck he bracketed both repulsors first turn and threw enought 'anaught fire at each to get the last few wounds off of them(barely even wasting declared target shots).
He was a good player and surprisingly fun to play against while he tore my army apart.
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Facisminthe41m wrote: Do devastator centurions outperform boltstorm aggressors if you are playing iron hands?
Having them get the reroll of 1's for firing the heavy bolter as well as given it -2 AP seems to be really good. They still have a nasty amount of strength 4 shots too but I am mainly focusing on the buffs they receive from Iron hands and debating whether or not that puts them above aggressors in said list.
What do you all think? And don't forget the centurions ignore cover saves.
If aggressors are better despite these buffs I would prefer to take them as that would free up more heavy support slots for my army...
-2 Ap is great for volume of fire anti-tank. My opponents learned to fear the onslaught gatlings.
But.
Points cost. You can get twice as many aggressors for 12 points more.
Neither really benefit much (in bolt armaments) from Iron Hands. Well.. Agressors somehow do. 222 points for 6 as a defensive position with 5+ double shots in overwatch. Cents naturally move and fire without penalty, but lascannon/missile cents benefit more from the -1 AP.
So in a question of small unit bolter beasts: Aggressors unless you really need the range.
Aggressors also have power fists which allow them to fight better than cents either if they happen to get charged or if you want to try and finish off something that's in your lines.
The dev cents that intrigue me are grav with hurricanes. With that grav strat they can punish tough targets while still being able to put up a lot of anti infantry.
I also think Grav might be the way to go for iron hands. They're the same price as heavy bolters.
For my Crimson Fists all kinds of centurions and aggressors look good. It's particularly nice that they ignore cover because it's like getting the benefit of both the Crimson and Imperial Fist chapters at once.
I'll have to wait and see what the super doctrine(s) is/are though. The rumour floating around is that heavy weapons will get +1 damage, which seems kind of insane - but GW are demonstrating a capacity to do insane stuff at the moment so who knows?
Assault centurions should always be considered too I think. They still have the hurricane bolters but matched up with flamers and those brutal drills. The damage those guys now hand out in melee is ludicrous and they're relatively cheap at 52 points. Three of them make a very interesting alternative to something like a redemptor.
The rumour for IF is +1 dmg against vehicles (and buildings) in the dev doctrine, not just a flat +1 dmg. Although considering several of them are multi-faceted there might easily be more than 1 bonus
Anyone get any games this week with the shiny new IH or RG? Curious to see how people are doing with them before I decide what i want to do with my pile of SM stuff
I've had a lot of good experiences recently with UM grav cents with hurricanes. The -1AP is more useful on the hurricanes than the extra ap on the grav cannon IME.
Other stuff which has been amazing: vox espiritum. Damn, 9" full re roll aura is literally insane. I'm gradually just dropping heavy weapons out of my list and relying on catechism of fire, seal of oath, rapid fire strat, marksmen strat on sternguard etc and taking down the big stuff through weight of fire. I also haven't seen people talking much about inceptors. I think a unit of 2 x 6 for 246pts per squad with the 3" extra range and tac doctine. Wow. 72 mobile S5 AP-2 shots. They just absolutely rinse stuff.
Khornatedemon wrote: Anyone get any games this week with the shiny new IH or RG? Curious to see how people are doing with them before I decide what i want to do with my pile of SM stuff
Tried a few of the Raven Guard strats and they're pretty baller. Nothing tried from Iron Hands yet.
Khornatedemon wrote: Anyone get any games this week with the shiny new IH or RG? Curious to see how people are doing with them before I decide what i want to do with my pile of SM stuff
I am also curious, got a pile of normal marines, techmarines and reg dreads, but looking to see where I go next.
Ice_can wrote: I'd say Thunderfire cannon over whirlwinds as they also have the tremmer shells slowing down those lists that want to rush you and can give your intercessors more time to chew through the chaff.
and he can proably snag the new Iron Hands char and mod him into a Primaris Tech marine (while using normal tech marine stats) to keep to the otherwise all Primaris theme.
Khornatedemon wrote: Anyone get any games this week with the shiny new IH or RG? Curious to see how people are doing with them before I decide what i want to do with my pile of SM stuff
I am also curious, got a pile of normal marines, techmarines and reg dreads, but looking to see where I go next.
TFire cannon is great for everyone and better for Iron Hands. Gunlines are semi-vulnerable to being overwhelmed by an alpha strike, but the ability to shut down movement on two otherwise fast units makes it much easier to protect yourself. (Plus, of course, you benefit from Devestator Doctrine.)
I'm sad they still left the Tremor strat to Thunderfire only. The Whirlwind is finally cheap enough to be worth using, but it's still flat out outclassed given the Thunderfire costs the same, shoots at the same efficiency, and has the strat too.
The decision between a hideable cannon vs a more durable vehicle chassis would be interesting if there was any reason to use the vehicle.
The decision between a hideable cannon vs a more durable vehicle chassis would be interesting if there was any reason to use the vehicle.
I didnt know thunderfire cannons have 72" 2D3 shots at S7 AP-1 D2. Where does it say that ?
While the whirlwind has a slight damage boost against T6-7 vehicles vs the thunderfire, the difference is negligible enough to be functionally irrelevant (against T7 3+ save, the whirlwind does about 1.3 wounds per turn vs the 1.1 wounds of the Thunderfire). Against any other target, the Thunderfire performs better, partly thanks to its BS2+. The range difference is also pretty irrelevant, 60" on the TFC is long enough to hit just about anything on a 6x4 board.
So while you are correct that there is technically a difference between the shooting of a whirlwind and a TFC, the difference is small enough that arguing the point is not particularly meaningful. The reason that the TFC is practically an auto-take competitively, while the whirlwind is never seen, is that for 1CP the TFC provides a level of utility that vastly outstrips the damage potential of either unit. An argument could be made for the Whirlwind based on T7 saturation and board presence, but at that point I honestly think the points would be better spend on just about anything else. Indirect fire is valuable, but not that valuable, particularly since the new codex has so many ways to deliver damage where it's needed.
Mandragola wrote: I think raven guard are going to be the masters of getting silly amounts of wounds on things in turn 1 close combat. It's all about the warlord trait that teleports an infantry unit with a character, at the top of the first battle round before turn 1 begins. You don't have to worry about 9" charges because you get a movement phase first. That said, you could give the trait to a chaplain with the +2 to charges and 6" consolidate power, if you were extra mean.
Nothing much compares to a charge from 6 centurions (25 S10 attacks, ap-4 for 3 damage each). Get some rerolls nearby (easy to do with how speedy Shrike is) and things will get very messy indeed.
That unit costs 312 points, has 6 hurricane bolters and 12 flamers, and is not at all easy to kill. Good times.
6 Aggressors are 90pts cheaper, can effectively do the same job (not as good, granted) and have the ability to target units further away and still get an effective charge on the closest unit. That 90pts gets you well on your way toward an Invictor warsuit.
How do you figure Aggressors are able to target units further away? They're all starting off at the same spot and Hurricane Bolters are firing their full 12 shots at the 24" mark.
Being a DA player, never really looked at Cents, wasn't thinking about bolter discipline on a moving Cent. Flamers are wasted though (probably don't want to kill what you want to charge) but because of points, I think I'm still going to opt for Aggressors. They are a little more mobile too.
They're more mobile by themselves, but there's enough Strats and such (as well as Ravens existing) that I don't think it's an issue.
Turn 1 if the aggressors advance their threat range is 23+D6, but it's only single tap dakka
Double tap range is 18, 23 for ultra smurfs
Assault centurions threat range is 28" with the bolters.
Any stratagem that can get aggressors closer can get dev centurions closer.
The assault centurions are actually faster in the snail versus tortoise race.
The aggressors are a lot cheaper, and the centurions are even more obscene in CC.
The 2 flamers are not going to be used often, but that's because most opponents will not get near them. That makes the centurions an effective objective bully. Players might feed a squad into the flamers on occasion to make an objective grab, but for the most part nothing is going to go within 11" of them out of fear of the flamers or fear of the drills. Life is rough in ITC format when being bullied out of mid field.
Ultra smurf aggressors can move and double tap while their centurions gain nothing.
White scars are also not going to be using hurricane bolter centurions because of advance and charge, but assault centurions with only flamers would be a good candidate for outflank assaults with a chaplain assistance so both are good. That being said charging up with extra movement speed and advance should make aggressors the more popular option.
Imperial fists can siege breaker cohort the centurions and explode the bolter 6s so no contest.
I cannot call one of them a clear winner because so much changes between chapters. This is a good balance between 2 similar units.
Cooking the Raven Guard book over the weekend, looking for synergies, and found some White Scars type possibilities.
The warlord trait Swift and Deadly obviously meshes with a bike captain, because he can always advance the full 20" and then charge.
And then, because it just applies for free to all the units within 6", you can pull some White Scars-style early turn charges with big units of bikes and/or scout bikes zooming across 20 or 22 inches, then assaulting.
It's less random than trying to chance all those 9" charges after infiltrating, and costs no CPs, although I would spend 1 to give the bike captain Shadowmaster as a second warlord trait.
It's too bad the Infiltrators strategem won't work on bikes, or that would be a seriously overpowered move-advance, then move-advance-assault in turn one if you went first (although Shining Spears do that all the time). But if you position the bike captain correctly, you should be able--when going first--to move-advance a unit of jump pack infantry with Infiltators, then move-advance-assault them turn one. Good way to put a big unit of Vanguard Vets in the backfield for one CP.
Problem is other than the bike captain the bikers dont want to be in cc. Otherwise its not a bad idea.
As for the thunderfire vs whirlwind debate the thunderfire is the better unit in most armys very very slightly. Having said that there is something really cool about taking 2 thunderfire cannons and 3 whirlwinds in castellen mode. 4d3 str 5 ap-2 1dmg plus 6d6 str 6 ap-1 1dmg with no los needed is the perfect answer to almost any infantry issues you may run across. Leaves the other 1500 pts for anti tank rolls and objective securing.
Thinking of a dirty combo with the Iron Hands. Take a redemptor, give it March if the ancients, then the gorgon's chain relic, then pay another CP to give him the all flesh is weak warlord trait. Obviously near an ironstone holder. Now the redemptor is rocking a 4+ invul and -1 to wound at range with the usual dreadnought shennagins like halving damage with a 5+ fnp. Come at me bro indeed for only around 150pts of unkillable awesomeness.
buddha wrote: Thinking of a dirty combo with the Iron Hands. Take a redemptor, give it March if the ancients, then the gorgon's chain relic, then pay another CP to give him the all flesh is weak warlord trait. Obviously near an ironstone holder. Now the redemptor is rocking a 4+ invul and -1 to wound at range with the usual dreadnought shennagins like halving damage with a 5+ fnp. Come at me bro indeed for only around 150pts of unkillable awesomeness.
Unless I missed an iron hands only rule vehicals can't take relics.
buddha wrote: Thinking of a dirty combo with the Iron Hands. Take a redemptor, give it March if the ancients, then the gorgon's chain relic, then pay another CP to give him the all flesh is weak warlord trait. Obviously near an ironstone holder. Now the redemptor is rocking a 4+ invul and -1 to wound at range with the usual dreadnought shennagins like halving damage with a 5+ fnp. Come at me bro indeed for only around 150pts of unkillable awesomeness.
buddha wrote: Thinking of a dirty combo with the Iron Hands. Take a redemptor, give it March if the ancients, then the gorgon's chain relic, then pay another CP to give him the all flesh is weak warlord trait. Obviously near an ironstone holder. Now the redemptor is rocking a 4+ invul and -1 to wound at range with the usual dreadnought shennagins like halving damage with a 5+ fnp. Come at me bro indeed for only around 150pts of unkillable awesomeness.
Dreads cant take relics.
Pretty sure there's a Strat in the IH supplement to make a Dread a character, and therefore eligible for Warlord Traits and Relics.
Pretty sure there's a Strat in the IH supplement to make a Dread a character, and therefore eligible for Warlord Traits and Relics.
Vehicle keyworded units cannot take relics. It's an explicit prohibition in the base marine dex and supplementary dexes, not one imparted by a lack of the Character keyword.
JNAProductions wrote: Does the IH supplement have the same restriction? Because if anyone could lift it, it'd be them.
It does. I'm literally looking at it in the review videos now. (08:04 in the GMG IH supplement review)
Just a quick note, even if it lacked the vehicles cannot take relics of medusa(or again with special issue wargear); it would have also had to change the wording for both at the end of the paragraph ("...count as chapter relics for all rules purposes).
I am glad GW did the copy-paste-replace chapter keyword instead of trying to make a snowflake variant(no matter how fluffy) in this instance.
Azuza001 wrote: Problem is other than the bike captain the bikers dont want to be in cc. Otherwise its not a bad idea.
Bikers can have chainswords now, so that's 3 attacks each after the charge, assaulting for clearing chaff and hiding from shooting. Then next round use feigned retreat to fall back 14" (16 for scout bikes), shoot, and assault something else. Let characters on bikes do the heaving lifting.
Although it's true that bikes can be trapped in cc, unlike jump packs. But it would be possible to do a Swift and Deadly JP captain with a bunch of JP Vanguard Vets--slower and more random than bikes, but can always fall back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I was looking at the possibility of a Raven Guard librarian to infiltrate in LoS-blocking terrain at the center of the table, to attempt and deny key psychic powers in turn one. Shutting down one warptime or one reroll power might be worth the potential sacrifice if it disrupts the enemy plan enough (thinking about those Shining Spears again).
At first I was looking at the Phobos librarian because of the native, free infiltrate ability. But the Obscuration discipline just doesn't have anything that obviously meshes with what Raven Guard want to do. If he could take even generic librarian powers, that would be okay, but no dice.
But Umbramancy offers a couple of good options for a generic RG librarian, mainly Enveloping Darkness to remove overwatch from a unit about to be assaulted, and Shadowstep to either pluck that wounded warlord out of a fight he's losing, or to send the librarian to safety when he's threatened. The Str9 of Spectral Blade is tempting, but with only 3 base attacks, the generic librarian doesn't benefit that much.
Umbral Form seems too chancy. A better invul save option might be the Cloak of Shadows relic. The librarian isn't planning to leave that terrain piece anyway (as long as it blocks LoS), so anything that comes up close to get him will still have to deal with the 3++, even in close combat, without the librarian having to roll a psychic test to get it. If he gets in trouble, just shadowstep to terrain across the board.
The problem, unlike the Phobos librarian, is on getting him deployed forward on turn one. Strike from the Shadows or a JP deepstrike won't work until turn 2 at the earliest, and is subject to screening. So probably it would have to be positioning plus Infiltration for an extra move+advance (but only if you have first turn) or piggybacking on the warlord's Master of Ambush power. Or Shadowstep if you have first turn.
So I have been looking at iron hands and wondering if your taking units with lots of heavy weapons but not needing the dmg table option is there a combo for successor chapters that would take full advantage of the iron hands super doctrine?
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at iron hands and wondering if your taking units with lots of heavy weapons but not needing the dmg table option is there a combo for successor chapters that would take full advantage of the iron hands super doctrine?
Essentially running heavy weapon squads with no vehicles you mean? Probably stealthy and master artisans
Took a second look at the trusty old TH/SS Terminators; with Fury of the First and Honour the Chapter they do ~26 damage to a Knight, and with a bike Chaplain they can now reliably assault out of Deep Strike. Saves a lot of CP compared to a Smashcaptain.
I like TH/SS terminators, but how many CP is a smashcaptain?
For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.
Also, I don’t remember if the previous codex version of Honor the Chapter was at the end of the close combat phase, but it is now. So anything in HtH with a knight has to weather a round of stomping. How many TH/SS terminators are we talking about here?
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bmsattler wrote: You can take the Tome of Mal-something to give any Librarian one power from the basic space marine list, I believe.
Thanks for the tip, and it looked good, but then I checked and the Tome of Malcador only allows the extra power to be from a discipline that the librarian has access to. So Phobos are still restricted to Obscuration.
But I did then notice the Reliquary of Galthamor, which would increase the disruption effect of a forward-deployed librarian (or any primaris model really) by making the opponent’s psychic tests harder, and even dangerous.
bmsattler wrote: You can take the Tome of Mal-something to give any Librarian one power from the basic space marine list, I believe.
They nerfed it to take the third power from the same as the ones before. Bit you can take any chapter specific powers for phobos as well, just not the basic ones.
For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.
A true BA smashcaptain has angels wings, TH, SS. 2CP for a 3D6 charge, 1CP for red rampage (+d3 attacks), 3CP for honor the chapter at the end of the fight phase, or 2CP to fight again should he die. Very CP hungry, but only 124 pts. Only one model, so very little space needed. And with JP he can charge across screens as if they werent there.
For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.
A true BA smashcaptain has angels wings, TH, SS. 2CP for a 3D6 charge, 1CP for red rampage (+d3 attacks), 3CP for honor the chapter at the end of the fight phase, or 2CP to fight again should he die. Very CP hungry, but only 124 pts. Only one model, so very little space needed. And with JP he can charge across screens as if they werent there.
For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.
A true BA smashcaptain has angels wings, TH, SS. 2CP for a 3D6 charge, 1CP for red rampage (+d3 attacks), 3CP for honor the chapter at the end of the fight phase, or 2CP to fight again should he die. Very CP hungry, but only 124 pts. Only one model, so very little space needed. And with JP he can charge across screens as if they werent there.
bmsattler wrote: You can take the Tome of Mal-something to give any Librarian one power from the basic space marine list, I believe.
Thanks for the tip, and it looked good, but then I checked and the Tome of Malcador only allows the extra power to be from a discipline that the librarian has access to. So Phobos are still restricted to Obscuration.
No they aren't. Not completely, anyway. They can take Umbramancy in place of Obscuration. Can't really give them Librarius powers, though.
The Raven Guard supplement in particular says:
"LIBRARIAN models in RAVEN GUARD Detachments can know all of their psychic powers from the Umbramancy discipline instead of the Librarius or Obscuration disciplines."
Page 62, right near the top. This is true for all the supplements.
For assault terminators, I’m seeing 1 for Fury of the First, 3 for Honor the chapter, and possibly 1 more for the command reroll in the 33% of attempts that the chaplain botches his litany test.
Also, I don’t remember if the previous codex version of Honor the Chapter was at the end of the close combat phase, but it is now. So anything in HtH with a knight has to weather a round of stomping. How many TH/SS terminators are we talking about here?
Just the minimum five. It's more expensive than a Smash Captain, but it costs less CP and you don't have to sacrifice your Warlord to use them.
bmsattler wrote: You can take the Tome of Mal-something to give any Librarian one power from the basic space marine list, I believe.
They nerfed it to take the third power from the same as the ones before. Bit you can take any chapter specific powers for phobos as well, just not the basic ones.
Oh, right. That makes sense. Forgot about that.
I've been coming around on Obscuration for Raven Guard, though, even without any other phobos models.
A Smite + Mind Raid every turn that he survives would be annoying, and might score the odd extra CP. Mind Raid has the advantage of being able to target characters for the mortal wound, which probably won't make a huge difference (except with weedy characters like warlocks), but might force an opponent to have to send somebody after the librarian because it's hard to shift the character in cover with the RG strat + camo cloak.
Unlike Tremor Shells, Tenebrous Curse can target characters for the slowdown (as long as they don't fly) and costs no CP to use. Since it happens before the shooting phase, that could sometimes save you the tremor shot, or allow you to slow a third unit.
If the librarian's hiding place is LoS-blocking, then Temporal Corridor can work as a psychic fire-and-fade: pop out, do a Mind Raid, then Temporal Corridor back into hiding.
Their answer is
- IH Iron Father Malkaan Feirros
- IH Razorback w/ assault cannons
- IH Leviathan w/ storm cannons
- IH Storm Talon w/ assault cannons
MF has a lot of synergy with units nearby but I think the three tanks/transports are not a must have in an IH army.
Thoughts?
Storm Cannon Leviathan is a must have in basically all marine lists, but even more so in Iron Hands. It's nigh on unkillable, kicks out great firepower (on the move in IH). Storm Talon gets a nice buff as IH, but maybe not essential. Assault Razorbacks are great too, but again, maybe down to preference (and maybe still better with Bobby G).
Spiky bitz gets half their gak wrong, consistently.
Fierros is an auto-include in Iron hands with vehicles, this is true. He is a force multiplier.
Asscan backs have always been good; move and fire, with double remaining wounds, reroll 1's, and 5+ overwatch is amazing. But the same can be said for any razorback, or predator, or whirlwind, or... you get my point.
Levi is just bonkers-broken, but FW often is.
Stormtalon: see asscan back.
The true power of Iron hands is in the survivability uptick(which only matters when it functions, they are either stoic or dead), overwatch on 5+(this is what really ruins opponent's days, especially the reroll 1's on heavy weapons), and the mobile gunline(move and fire reroll 1's heavy weapons). An all Infantry Tac + devs oldmarines Ironhands list can be just as potent and devastating as a vehicle-heavy list, especially when you take bolter discipline into account. Mixing the 2 or dread-supported footsloggers can do very well.
Razorbacks in general are tasty in any doctrine that allows them to shoot n scoot without incurring the heavy weapons penalty. They're a great combination of relatively shooty, relatively robust, and relatively cheap. I expect to see them get a lot more play in 8.5e (to be clear, they werent slouches before codex 2.0, theyre just flat out better now).
Now if the Predator wasnt such a goddamn dumpster fire, it may have been a different story, but it isnt so here we are.
Yeah the spikybits thing is basically wrong. The unit that benefits most is the repulsor executioner. Feirros and the ironstone relic allow you to survive going second against another shooty army, fix your tanks, then start murdering things.
It’s true that all vehicles benefit but you can’t keep many razorbacks in range of the ironstone. And they get tied up in melee. Repulsors don’t.
Flyers for IH are certainly worth considering. They extend your threat range and help winkle ensues out of cover.
What's the best way of making a terminator army with these new codex?
3 units of regular termies, 3 units of hammers... And then what? Some land raiders or some older termies suits?
And what chapter? First founding or descendants?
Nope. You're going to defend this statement right now as you're literally incorrect.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doctor-boom wrote: What's the best way of making a terminator army with these new codex?
3 units of regular termies, 3 units of hammers... And then what? Some land raiders or some older termies suits?
And what chapter? First founding or descendants?
Land Raiders are still bad because they can't drive over a single model like a Gaunt.
Stormravens would be where it's at if you want to transport them.
I think you shouldn't keep the razor backs in the castle. They should move out and control the field and screen, they're cheap enough for that and don't need the character with the iron hands devastator doctrine.
Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)
Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.
Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)
Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.
Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.
As someone who plays with and against FW extensively I feel this edition is mostly different. Most FW units are trash with a few standouts. But yes the loyalist leviathan is too good with that strat.
The issue with FW, the SM index especially, is that the rules are out of date. We are working with version 3.0 of the SM rules while FW is still stuck using version 1.0. A FAQ to slap on the new chaplain rules and SA isn't enough. This is leading to some weird interactions.
I mean the RS librarian still references the index for choosing his powers.
Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)
Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.
Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.
Other dreads do not have:
T8 &14W
4++
2 heavy 10 autocannons (with better AP) seriously, 3x+1 shots at half range and better AP than the Icarus Stormcannon because it has 1 more barrel.
2+ ws&bs 2+ save
8" move.
It moves almost as fast as repulsors and puts out a comparable volume of better quality fire, while costing around 30 points less. In a non-Iron hands list both hit on 3+ while while moving, at 24" the levi shoots 20 shots; the repulsor gets 6 heavy bolter, 18 onslaught, 3 heavy stubber, and 4 storm bolter shots with either 3 more stubbers -1 to hit non-flyers or d3 autocannon shots -1 to hit non flyers.
I had said whenever new faction rules come out, that it is usually the interaction with a FW unit that has everyone screaming about how OP that faction is.
Yes FW os a little more balanced in this edition than in past, but there are still some already very good units that get made much better with certain subfaction rules.
And on the opposite end some FW units have gotten hit hard with the nerfbat because of this.
I have had to repeat time and again on dakka and other forums that GW books do not take FW rules into account, and that is why FW and subfaction combos are so crazy. It is also why some FW units are a little lackluster or incompatible compared to codex variants.
Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)
Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.
Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.
Other dreads do not have:
T8 &14W
4++
2 heavy 10 autocannons (with better AP) seriously, 3x+1 shots at half range and better AP than the Icarus Stormcannon because it has 1 more barrel.
2+ ws&bs 2+ save
8" move.
It moves almost as fast as repulsors and puts out a comparable volume of better quality fire, while costing around 30 points less. In a non-Iron hands list both hit on 3+ while while moving, at 24" the levi shoots 20 shots; the repulsor gets 6 heavy bolter, 18 onslaught, 3 heavy stubber, and 4 storm bolter shots with either 3 more stubbers -1 to hit non-flyers or d3 autocannon shots -1 to hit non flyers.
Those other Dreads are also not as much as a Knight basically.
The Levi isn't broken and FW itself really isn't either, so get over it.
Did any of you guys see that Goongammer math article on the IH Leviathan and Repulsor? https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/ Due to the divide then subtract, I admit they are even tougher than I was picturing, however the thing I also noticed is look at the relatively minor drop from Feiros to Feiros+Ironstone. It the 2 were not a pair of an undercosted HQ and 0pt relic I would actually say it seems overkill to take both...You can make a zomg unkillable!!! unit all you want and the opponent is just going to murder everything else first. Ideally you want that toughness spread over the whole list in proportion to its strength so everything is terrible to attack.
As to what I’d put in the bubble, yeah 2-3 Executioners seem the obvious, but not how I personally want to play, I’ve done the gun bubble before. 1 Leviathan also easy pick though that’s just shunting hits into whatever the 2nd pick is. Normally I like Deredeos, Relic Contemptors, and Venerables but they waste Feiros’ invulnerable or the chapter fnp bonus. Depending on the BS of the other picks, 1 regular/mortis dread could be good. Use the BS2 granting power on it if everything else is already BS2.
Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)
Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.
Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.
Other dreads do not have:
T8 &14W
4++
2 heavy 10 autocannons (with better AP) seriously, 3x+1 shots at half range and better AP than the Icarus Stormcannon because it has 1 more barrel.
2+ ws&bs 2+ save
8" move.
It moves almost as fast as repulsors and puts out a comparable volume of better quality fire, while costing around 30 points less. In a non-Iron hands list both hit on 3+ while while moving, at 24" the levi shoots 20 shots; the repulsor gets 6 heavy bolter, 18 onslaught, 3 heavy stubber, and 4 storm bolter shots with either 3 more stubbers -1 to hit non-flyers or d3 autocannon shots -1 to hit non flyers.
Those other Dreads are also not as much as a Knight basically.
The Levi isn't broken and FW itself really isn't either, so get over it.
Why do you think I compared it to the Repulsor?
Also the only knight that costs around 303 points is the gallant at 352.
But you keep defending the Levi as being perfectly reasonable; I am sure you spent enough money to need that to be true.
bort wrote: Did any of you guys see that Goongammer math article on the IH Leviathan and Repulsor? https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/ Due to the divide then subtract, I admit they are even tougher than I was picturing, however the thing I also noticed is look at the relatively minor drop from Feiros to Feiros+Ironstone. It the 2 were not a pair of an undercosted HQ and 0pt relic I would actually say it seems overkill to take both...You can make a zomg unkillable!!! unit all you want and the opponent is just going to murder everything else first. Ideally you want that toughness spread over the whole list in proportion to its strength so everything is terrible to attack.
As to what I’d put in the bubble, yeah 2-3 Executioners seem the obvious, but not how I personally want to play, I’ve done the gun bubble before. 1 Leviathan also easy pick though that’s just shunting hits into whatever the 2nd pick is. Normally I like Deredeos, Relic Contemptors, and Venerables but they waste Feiros’ invulnerable or the chapter fnp bonus. Depending on the BS of the other picks, 1 regular/mortis dread could be good. Use the BS2 granting power on it if everything else is already BS2.
That article does a wonderful job of showing how FWbs is so much fun!
I think the Leviathan is still pretty reasonable for nonIH chapters. I wouldn’t be heart broken if they raise the cost in order to nerf the IH version of it, but I’d also never run it in any other chapter after that.
I recently ran 2 leviathans as IH against Harlequins with DE and got pants’d. Leviathans aren’t broken. Their short range and high cost can make it very difficult in an objectives game. They are probably the single best unit in the space marines tool kit, but are not OP. Any list that can kill knights will have no problem with leviathans. Or alternatively kill the relatively few infantry units around the leviathan and grab objectives.
I feel like anyone that complains loudly about individual units probably does not have a competative list and is playing against competative players, hence a negative experience.
Levi with Iron hands strat for half damage + invuln + double wounds on chart + 6+fnp,stratable to 5+ + 5+ overwatvh, stratable to 4+ overwatch + Iron hands repairs = crazybroken unit that can kill anything that tries to charge it and survive way longer than anything in the game has a right to and can lay down extreme heavy firepower(1 extra barrelt doubles the shots? Really?)
Every time people start doomsaying about a faction's new rules it is almost always because of the interactions with a FW unit and the new rules/strats/buffrelic. Outside of some FW already good unit, the new buffs are not nearly as imbalanced as many people claim; that comes from the FW unit.
Everything you said applies to other Dreads besides a complaint about the Autocannon it has. Then your complaint for FW being broken is SO vague it has no purpose in even being posted. So you didn't defend either viewpoint.
Other dreads do not have:
T8 &14W
4++
2 heavy 10 autocannons (with better AP) seriously, 3x+1 shots at half range and better AP than the Icarus Stormcannon because it has 1 more barrel.
2+ ws&bs 2+ save
8" move.
It moves almost as fast as repulsors and puts out a comparable volume of better quality fire, while costing around 30 points less. In a non-Iron hands list both hit on 3+ while while moving, at 24" the levi shoots 20 shots; the repulsor gets 6 heavy bolter, 18 onslaught, 3 heavy stubber, and 4 storm bolter shots with either 3 more stubbers -1 to hit non-flyers or d3 autocannon shots -1 to hit non flyers.
Those other Dreads are also not as much as a Knight basically.
The Levi isn't broken and FW itself really isn't either, so get over it.
Why do you think I compared it to the Repulsor?
Also the only knight that costs around 303 points is the gallant at 352.
But you keep defending the Levi as being perfectly reasonable; I am sure you spent enough money to need that to be true.
The sad reality is that everything that the IH are taking advantage of to make obscenely good right now, all the other chapters will suffer from it because GW will simply do point increases.
Point increases to account for the IH buffs, that everyone else won't have, and so we will be right back to square one, where everything is obscenely expensive because GW doesn't fething know how to write rules.
This is exactly what is going to happen. Because all chapters are totally created equal right guys? If a repulsor is too good for the IH, then that means its too good for all chapters! Right guys?
has anyone thought about putting together an all infantry old marine list ? competitive ? viable ? was wondering cause if got a shed load of HB marines and tons of old marine dudes
zedsdead wrote: has anyone thought about putting together an all infantry old marine list ? competitive ? viable ? was wondering cause if got a shed load of HB marines and tons of old marine dudes
Primaris are nice to have, but not absolutely necessary IMHO.
Devastators, Vanguard Vets, and Scouts are still good units. Bikes, point-for-point, can approach the volume fire of Aggressors. If you really need a gajillion plasma shots, Sternguard or Company vets can do that. Speeders are looking good again for some chapters. Primaris barely have dreads, and don’t have flyers or flamers at all.
Primaris units can get some efficiencies (especially the troops) that are hard for oldmarines to get. But the old guys are still viable with the new books.
bort wrote: Did any of you guys see that Goongammer math article on the IH Leviathan and Repulsor? https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-iron-hands-vehicles/ Due to the divide then subtract, I admit they are even tougher than I was picturing, however the thing I also noticed is look at the relatively minor drop from Feiros to Feiros+Ironstone. It the 2 were not a pair of an undercosted HQ and 0pt relic I would actually say it seems overkill to take both...You can make a zomg unkillable!!! unit all you want and the opponent is just going to murder everything else first. Ideally you want that toughness spread over the whole list in proportion to its strength so everything is terrible to attack.
As to what I’d put in the bubble, yeah 2-3 Executioners seem the obvious, but not how I personally want to play, I’ve done the gun bubble before. 1 Leviathan also easy pick though that’s just shunting hits into whatever the 2nd pick is. Normally I like Deredeos, Relic Contemptors, and Venerables but they waste Feiros’ invulnerable or the chapter fnp bonus. Depending on the BS of the other picks, 1 regular/mortis dread could be good. Use the BS2 granting power on it if everything else is already BS2.
That article does a wonderful job of showing how FWbs is so much fun!
While you're all foaming at the mouth about FW being the problem instead of the ability stacking I'm just going to point out that it's even more rediculous when you stack those buffs on a redemptor dreadnaught as it actually packs almost as much firepower the ability to CC and costs half the points.
FW dreadnaughts are simply not broken, iH dreadnaughts being 50% more durable than anyone else's is broken.
FW wrote dreadnaughts that were playable, GW wrote unplayable poor rules for codex dreadnaughts. Then is compensating by making a single chapter buff them to 2 or 3 times over to make them playable. That's bad game/rules design, it's 100% on the main studio not FW.
Here’s the thing about the leviathan in iron hands list. 1 is super strong. 2 will quickly become one because you can really only buff one.
All those strats cost CP and CP will be at a premium if you’re taking a lot of vehicles etc.
There are a lot of things that ignore overwatch AND/OR have so many men that they can charge in no problem. 30 tzaangors will have a lovely time tryin it up in CC.
Tau can pop it from long range. It may take everything they have but after it’s dead that’s 300 some odd points gone.
Those other Dreads are also not as much as a Knight basically.
The Levi isn't broken and FW itself really isn't either, so get over it.
To quote a fellow on the last page, "Nope. You're going to defend this statement right now as you're literally incorrect. "
Prove to us how it is not broken, please.
It costs about as much as a Knight with none of the survivability and anything not Ultramarines just gets tied up in melee indefinitely.
It's a good unit but hardly broken. It only appears broken because a lot of the Dread options are actually just terrible and always have been. There's a distinction ya know.
Kommissar Kel wrote:
Asscan backs have always been good; move and fire, with double remaining wounds, reroll 1's, and 5+ overwatch is amazing. But the same can be said for any razorback, or predator, or whirlwind, or... you get my point.
Preds were bad, and now they are useless, with the removal of killshot. A razorback can do the same, and is cheaper, and can carry 6 models.
Nope. You're going to defend this statement right now as you're literally incorrect.
An IH twin SCA levi dread is bonkers broken. I played it twice now, since the release of the supplement. You have to kill it in one turn, which is nearly impossible with the iron stone and the half damage stratagem. If you dont kill it feirros will repair 6 wounds for 1 CP. I played it as character with student of history. I never got to use the warlord trait, because i used the overwatch on 4+ stratagem, and killed everything.
JNAProductions wrote:
But Forgeworld as a whole isn't any more broken than GW.
