Sterling191 wrote: At T6 and no invuln they’re gonna pop like nobodies business
I'm still having a hard time understanding people's issue with T6. The drop from T7 doesn't actually matter against the VAST majority of weapons. Str3,4,5 & 8+ all still wound exactly the same as-if the Invictor was T7. The ONLY weapons this matters against are S6/7, and outside of Eldar and Plasma, I'm not fully aware of a ton of those weapons being spammable to threaten the Invictor.
Even Plasma will still WANT to supercharge for the D2, so again the T drop wouldn't matter. And against Eldar spamming S6, the Invictor has the ability to get close, something Eldar can ill-afford
its more theres plenty of randomly S6 high ap weapons that CAN hurt a vehicle, but usually dont because of the T7.
Ask any ork player that uses their T6 vehicles. They tend to die to "that random weapon" that isnt massed but hits hard, that isnt strong enough to reliably hurt T7 so you usually overlook it otherwise.
If the Invictor was 10-11 wounds, I might agree that T6 makes it squishy, but at 13 wounds, I'd argue that it's just as durable as a regular (or even Venerable) Dread at T7 with 8 wounds, but has far better odds of getting into melee
13W is also that butterzone where you usually need 1 more shot to actually kill it.
The difference between 10-12W is extremely minimal as generally theyre getting whacked with flat 3 or D6 damage weapons.
I fully expect to see multiples of those finkrats on the table. Its just so cheap how could you not use it? I imagine the people thinking its too squishy are those who dont also bring bigger vehicles to draw fire and for some reason expect autocannons to shoot at it instead of their primaris marines.
Sterling191 wrote: At T6 and no invuln they’re gonna pop like nobodies business
I'm still having a hard time understanding people's issue with T6. The drop from T7 doesn't actually matter against the VAST majority of weapons. Str3,4,5 & 8+ all still wound exactly the same as-if the Invictor was T7. The ONLY weapons this matters against are S6/7, and outside of Eldar and Plasma, I'm not fully aware of a ton of those weapons being spammable to threaten the Invictor.
Even Plasma will still WANT to supercharge for the D2, so again the T drop wouldn't matter. And against Eldar spamming S6, the Invictor has the ability to get close, something Eldar can ill-afford
-
Also as it's over 10 wounds it has a degrading statline.
Afte 7 wounds it's hitting on 4+, after 10 wounds hitting on 5+ makes it was less scary.
It's better than standard codex dreadnaughts but they aren't exactly stellar performers either.
It's not that this is bad it's that a number of thing will enjoy having it as a target
Heavy burstcannon says hello, avenger cannons aswell.
Those have problems with T7+, in a pure Primaris army you have a point thus sucking up some flat 2D weapons isn't such a bad thing but I would just caution that using it to burn up a screening IS turn 1 isn't going to be good enough for the points if it's just flat dead by turn 2, IMHO.
Roboute wrote: I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).
I just placed an order for three HB Tarantulas :-)
Sterling191 wrote: At T6 and no invuln they’re gonna pop like nobodies business
I'm still having a hard time understanding people's issue with T6. The drop from T7 doesn't actually matter against the VAST majority of weapons. Str3,4,5 & 8+ all still wound exactly the same as-if the Invictor was T7. The ONLY weapons this matters against are S6/7, and outside of Eldar and Plasma, I'm not fully aware of a ton of those weapons being spammable to threaten the Invictor.
Even Plasma will still WANT to supercharge for the D2, so again the T drop wouldn't matter. And against Eldar spamming S6, the Invictor has the ability to get close, something Eldar can ill-afford
-
Theres a lot of high volume str 6 and 7. Tau and space marines probably do it best. That being said the t6 isn't a death sentence when you have 13 wounds.
Roboute wrote: I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).
I just placed an order for three HB Tarantulas :-)
Even wasting the 111 points (37 ea, right?) seems like a lot for 2 CP when two batallions gets you 13 as it is. With Scryer's Gaze and Adept of the Codex you should be getting back one a turn at the least. Maybe you can make up for it if you don't want a Chaplain or Librarian, but a LT and Captain seems like the bare minimum you'd want...
Theres a lot of high volume str 6 and 7. Tau and space marines probably do it best. That being said the t6 isn't a death sentence when you have 13 wounds.
I'd agree, all of the heavy/elite infantry firepower every army takes is also able to efficiently would this new walker. That being said, it may be useful to try and exploit that by spamming heavy infantry. The walker may screen for your termies by merely existing.
Also as it's over 10 wounds it has a degrading statline.
Afte 7 wounds it's hitting on 4+, after 10 wounds hitting on 5+ makes it was less scary.
It's better than standard codex dreadnaughts but they aren't exactly stellar performers either.
That's another thing pushing me towards pushing me towards iron hands. Need to have it under 4 wounds for it to degrade. If they get a special doctrine that's good at all, especially if its devastator based, they are going to make some nasty dread armies. I can see leviathans with the half dmg stratagem being pains.
Its heavy flamer doesnt care too much about degrading and it is still fast when wounded.
And its not gonna kill a guard squad and then do nothing turn 1. It can deploy forward enough to kill a squad with shooting and then charge something juicy behind it or a second guard squad. If you have any more shooting and 3 of these dreads when its longside deployment I dont see how you dont get a nice charge off and kill most of their screens turn 1 if you go first. They need to have their own infiltrators that they set up before you deploy your dread to get around it since after your movement you will be 13" from the backside of their deployment on dawn of war before charging.
Getting a big warsuit alpha strike would be big, but if you want to win an RTT or GT, you have to build an army to go second. When designing an army now, I never ask "How much damage can I do turn 1 if I go first." That army will never go 3-0/6-0/9-0. Really the question should be, "Can I take minimal damage turn 1 if I go second." All of the harsh meta armies at the moment are extremely difficult to chew through for that reason and have melee bully units or unchargable units, and the warsuits cannot forward deploy and hide. If I were to take a warsuit, I almost would never forward deploy it because it just gives up free kill points if I go second or my opponent seizes on me.
Even wasting the 111 points (37 ea, right?) seems like a lot for 2 CP when two batallions gets you 13 as it is. With Scryer's Gaze and Adept of the Codex you should be getting back one a turn at the least. Maybe you can make up for it if you don't want a Chaplain or Librarian, but a LT and Captain seems like the bare minimum you'd want...
But not everyone plays Ultramarinse and some people would be taking some fast attack choices anyway.
HB Tarantulas are not a waste of points by any means. they're great backline screening units due to their special rules, and take buffs better than most due to their high rate of fire/low BS. I disagreed with someone on Dakka over them last year, and that made me give them another go. I now like them quite a lot.
grouchoben wrote: HB Tarantulas are not a waste of points by any means. they're great backline screening units due to their special rules, and take buffs better than most due to their high rate of fire/low BS. I disagreed with someone on Dakka over them last year, and that made me give them another go. I now like them quite a lot.
I'm going be aiming at that magic 20cp number in a bit. I ordered three HB Tarantulas to fill the FA slots, and I've always run a couple dev squads anyway, so I just need to find one more HS to slot in, and there are a lot of good options there.
My only real question is how to efficiently fill the 5 HQ slots. A Cap and a LT to babysit the dev squads, and depending on the elites I run either a techmarine or another cap for re-rolls.
The HQs tend to want to trap you with some heavy CC action, in an army that really lacks any decent CC backup. I'd love to run a Chaplin, Libby, and Captain to backup some Heavy Infantry like TH/SS Termies. But by the time you're done, it's 500 points that's going to end up surrounded, cut off, and destroyed.
I still think HB attack bikes are another tarantula alternative so you can get the mobility option, but yeah, the fact tarantulas get 2 HBs vs 1 and can’t be hugged is great for both blocking out your deployment zone and getting a cheaper brigade.
Either way sounds a lot better to me than people talking about taking empty drop pods for doing the exact same thing at higher cost.
bort wrote: I still think HB attack bikes are another tarantula alternative so you can get the mobility option, but yeah, the fact tarantulas get 2 HBs vs 1 and can’t be hugged is great for both blocking out your deployment zone and getting a cheaper brigade.
Either way sounds a lot better to me than people talking about taking empty drop pods for doing the exact same thing at higher cost.
Empty Drop Pods arent even Fast Attack so they dont help out for CP anyways.
grouchoben wrote: HB Tarantulas are not a waste of points by any means. they're great backline screening units due to their special rules, and take buffs better than most due to their high rate of fire/low BS. I disagreed with someone on Dakka over them last year, and that made me give them another go. I now like them quite a lot.
I'm going be aiming at that magic 20cp number in a bit. I ordered three HB Tarantulas to fill the FA slots, and I've always run a couple dev squads anyway, so I just need to find one more HS to slot in, and there are a lot of good options there.
My only real question is how to efficiently fill the 5 HQ slots. A Cap and a LT to babysit the dev squads, and depending on the elites I run either a techmarine or another cap for re-rolls.
The HQs tend to want to trap you with some heavy CC action, in an army that really lacks any decent CC backup. I'd love to run a Chaplin, Libby, and Captain to backup some Heavy Infantry like TH/SS Termies. But by the time you're done, it's 500 points that's going to end up surrounded, cut off, and destroyed.
If you play UM Chronus and Telion get you 2 HQ for about 100 points, iirc.
Roboute wrote: I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).
I just placed an order for three HB Tarantulas :-)
Even wasting the 111 points (37 ea, right?) seems like a lot for 2 CP when two batallions gets you 13 as it is. With Scryer's Gaze and Adept of the Codex you should be getting back one a turn at the least. Maybe you can make up for it if you don't want a Chaplain or Librarian, but a LT and Captain seems like the bare minimum you'd want...
You need to factor in the need for a non useless 4th HQ for the second battalion.
I mean I agree, double battalion is normally the best way to go. But I take tarantulas not to fill out FA slots, but because they're very good in some lists. T5 4W 3+ is pretty nice and 18 HB shots for 111pts that can't be locked in cc is pretty good too. Your mileage will vary with list building though for sure...
If you play UM Chronus and Telion get you 2 HQ for about 100 points, iirc.
Smurfs get all the toys -- Iron Hands, been playing them since 2nd, going to have to append that now for the rest of this edition as my hands are going to be the bandwagon chapter :-)
I think a brigade could be pretty easy to achieve now. There are a lot of good units that don’t cost that much.
Suppressors and scout bikers are good fast attack units. Personally I think I’ll just go with 9 suppressors. They’re a great bit of shooting that comes in within the budget for a brigade unit.
In heavy support you have elininators, TFCs, stalkers, and actually quite a lot of things. Hellblasters probably won’t work - you can maybe afford some but they’ll be picked on. Decent for ravenguard or maybe iron hands.
In elites you’ve got the ancient, aggressors, invictors, apothecaries... and roughly half the rest of the Codex.
For characters I like my primaris captain with power fist. A lieutenant, chaplain and maybe librarian all look like good options. I think you probably want a Phobos character to access their Princeps of deceit trait.
Along with this at 2k you can afford 30-40 intercessors and a couple of 5-man infiltrator squads. You put something like 70 primaris bodies on the table with a lot of firepower and a surprising amount of melee power.
Incursors, to me, are interesting in that they let you do some nasty area denial with the Haywire Mines--and since it's not 1 per 5, you're kind of encouraged to run them as MSU.
I'm looking at a couple of boxes worth(three, maybe four tops) to go a little crazy with Incursors and converting my Shadowspear Infiltrators.
Is a laser-pred ok for anti-tank? I'm experimenting with a dedicated competitive list and was lacking anti-tank, so I was thinking of throwing in one of those. Have it sit back with Bobby G and such.
Kanluwen wrote: Incursors, to me, are interesting in that they let you do some nasty area denial with the Haywire Mines--and since it's not 1 per 5, you're kind of encouraged to run them as MSU.
I'm looking at a couple of boxes worth(three, maybe four tops) to go a little crazy with Incursors and converting my Shadowspear Infiltrators.
Incursors look like a ton of fun, and are quite cool looking from the couple pics in the codex! Any idea on a release date for them? I've heard nothing so far! :(
Kanluwen wrote: The Infiltrator/Incursor double kit, Eliminators, and the Impulsor Space El Camino for them are currently unannounced for release dates.
Shame.
I've been thinking of using an incursor squad or two infiltrating up with invuctus warsuits and a drop pod or two with full ten man squads of devs would be a super fun base for an army. The majority of the army would hit turn one, and if you don't think you could achieve first turn you don't have to put out int he middle with the butts hanging out in the wind- deploy them more carefuly.
It seems like a really fun and potentially hard hitting force. Bolters for regular dudes, grav and other heavy weapons for vehicles and heavy infantry, and semi-dreads for cc. Not to mention the incursors don't seem too bad in combat either!
Kanluwen wrote: The Infiltrator/Incursor double kit, Eliminators, and the Impulsor Space El Camino for them are currently unannounced for release dates.
Shame.
I've been thinking of using an incursor squad or two infiltrating up with invuctus warsuits and a drop pod or two with full ten man squads of devs would be a super fun base for an army. The majority of the army would hit turn one, and if you don't think you could achieve first turn you don't have to put out int he middle with the butts hanging out in the wind- deploy them more carefuly.
It seems like a really fun and potentially hard hitting force. Bolters for regular dudes, grav and other heavy weapons for vehicles and heavy infantry, and semi-dreads for cc. Not to mention the incursors don't seem too bad in combat either!
no joke had the same thought last night. 2-3 incursor squads and 3 invictors backed up by a grav dev squad and 2-3 units of sterguard/company vets with plasma dropping down sounds like a fun army. Sprinkle in chars to taste and maybe some eliminators with las fusils or dreads with lascannons to chip wounds off tough stuff
I take batallions all the time but not because i feel i need to but because i actually want to run some of those units.
I live 3 man bike squads. 69 pts they put out 14 shots at 24" and move fast plus are t5 and 2w. Yep they do work. I will take 3 please.
Elites i like to take small 2 man vet teams with bolters and storm shields. 32 pts gets me a small team able to soak up overwatch pretty easily, cover area for deep strike deny, and take a hit for my hq when it needs to. They do work. Plus... 40k breachers....
I like our troop choices. Tacticals in drop pods, scouts zoneing out deep stike denial, and primaris walking up to solidify my position.
Our hqs are quite useful force multipliers now. Captains, leiutenants, and chaplin's now all have a good place, not to mention librarians.
And finally our heavy support has a lot of options depending on what your running. Need more anti infanty? Devistators/whirlwinds/thunderfire cannons. More anti tank? Devistators/predators/land raiders/repulsors. Need anti elite? Deviststors/hellblasters got you covered. I think i made my point lol.
My problem is i get everything i want in my list and am sitting on 220 odd points left to play with, not enough for a detachment but enough for some toys.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Is a laser-pred ok for anti-tank? I'm experimenting with a dedicated competitive list and was lacking anti-tank, so I was thinking of throwing in one of those. Have it sit back with Bobby G and such.
It'll do but it's below par competitively. A contemptor mortis will do a much better job at a cheaper price, I'd throw one or two of those in instead if you're wanting to head in that direction...
Azuza001 wrote: I take batallions all the time but not because i feel i need to but because i actually want to run some of those units.
I live 3 man bike squads. 69 pts they put out 14 shots at 24" and move fast plus are t5 and 2w. Yep they do work. I will take 3 please.
Elites i like to take small 2 man vet teams with bolters and storm shields. 32 pts gets me a small team able to soak up overwatch pretty easily, cover area for deep strike deny, and take a hit for my hq when it needs to. They do work. Plus... 40k breachers....
I like our troop choices. Tacticals in drop pods, scouts zoneing out deep stike denial, and primaris walking up to solidify my position.
Our hqs are quite useful force multipliers now. Captains, leiutenants, and chaplin's now all have a good place, not to mention librarians.
And finally our heavy support has a lot of options depending on what your running. Need more anti infanty? Devistators/whirlwinds/thunderfire cannons. More anti tank? Devistators/predators/land raiders/repulsors. Need anti elite? Deviststors/hellblasters got you covered. I think i made my point lol.
My problem is i get everything i want in my list and am sitting on 220 odd points left to play with, not enough for a detachment but enough for some toys.
Yeah, unlike before I feel like I have plenty of options to fill out brigade units...though I also feel like so so many good units are anti horde and my list is still light on heavy AT. -1AP buffs a lot of sweeper units, but doesn't help your hellblasters or lascannons vs things with invulnerables. I guess 3 Vindicators is a new option, but I'm hoping to avoid buying 3 more old style tanks.
220 odd points left, maybe upgrade something to a Leviathan Dread? We all know those are broken OP, right?
UM Seal of Oath Relic is crazy good. It's old school Guilliman rerolls aura against one target nominated at the start of the battle. I can't believe that's right. Maybe they meant CC attacks?
Because otherwise, three units of Grav Devastators can one-shot a Castellan, which is nuts.
Yeah, leviathans seem awsome. My issue is i dont run forgeworld. Just a personal choice really. Sometimes i put a ven dred in. Other times i drop some bikes and put supressors in. Once i just put more tacticals in drop pods in, as many as i could fit. Fun times lol.
However i agree i always find my anti infantry options always end up with no targets after t3 and i am shooting bolters and tanks..... but there is something terrific about killing tanks with mass bolter fire lol
Insectum7 wrote: UM Seal of Oath Relic is crazy good. It's old school Guilliman rerolls aura against one target nominated at the start of the battle. I can't believe that's right. Maybe they meant CC attacks?
Because otherwise, three units of Grav Devastators can one-shot a Castellan, which is nuts.
Yes. This is the point. To punish, essentially, knights. And knights deserve the punishment
Oof, despite those nice new cheap units, the points still go fast. I finally got my codex and made a first cut of a 2000pt UM brigade list idea and didn't get to several of the units I hoped. Obviously the best way to fit more in is drop the expensive FW dreads, but then it leaves the Invictors with no cover nor covering for any vehicles either:
Devastator Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp
T6 isn't the issue with invictors. The issue is that they will have a high skill requirement. Top tier players will be deadly with them and I expect them to he in a lot of top lists.
That being said it's also really easy for an opponent to outplay invictors. If the other guy is a better player then going Leroy Jenkins with 3 invictors is a fast path to defeat
Was looking at the UM book and noticed that Chronos give his tank the <Character> keyword. Was thinking about the implications of that. The first was the ability of honour guard to soak wounds for him. The second was Land Raiders clicking off “Only in Death Does Duty End” followed by “Vengeance of the Machine Spirit” in an impressive death blossom. Any other fun tricks?
Huh, the Redemptor's anti-air missile thing (the Icarus rocket pod) got a subtle buff in that it's now damage 2 instead of 1. Small but significant if you ran them with one anyway. So fun to track down all these little changes.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Huh, the Redemptor's anti-air missile thing (the Icarus rocket pod) got a subtle buff in that it's now damage 2 instead of 1. Small but significant if you ran them with one anyway. So fun to track down all these little changes.
Both Repulsors can take it too, and this change makes it much better. Now it might actually meaningfully contribute to killing flyers. (Unlike the stupid AA stubbers...)
So I've finished, I guess, my orbital strike themed list.
I wanna try the doctrines at least once but i think I'll just play an assassin in this list later on, I think it will contribute more and be on point with the theme and the tactics.
Master artisan is really useful with the MSU plasma units and characters, making the list less depending of bubbles, and hungry for battles helps getting the charges off with vv and after deep striking.
Still, I need to drop the terminators close to the apothecary and chapelain to benefit from theirs buffs T2.
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 82pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 82pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 82pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
+ Elites +
Apothecary [3 PL, 50pts]
Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 126pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant . . Special Issue Boltgun/Bolt Pistol
Terminator Squad [24 PL, 219pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist
. 4x Terminator w/PF: 4x Power fist, 4x Storm bolter
Yeah the Icarus pod has definitely become a good use of 6 points. Devastator doctrine helps too. Previously I left them off because they just slowed the game down without hurting anything. Now they’re a vague threat, especially if you’re spamming repulsors.
Which is the "better" quad lascannon user - relic Contemptor with two twin lascannon arms or a quad Las Pred?
My money is on the Contemptor, as for 15pts more you get a 5++/6+++ and 2+ BS skill. Any other vehicle anti armour options one can take in a marine list that pumps out a similar volume of wounds?
Insectum7 wrote: UM Seal of Oath Relic is crazy good. It's old school Guilliman rerolls aura against one target nominated at the start of the battle. I can't believe that's right. Maybe they meant CC attacks?
Because otherwise, three units of Grav Devastators can one-shot a Castellan, which is nuts.
It's basically the old grudges warlord trait. Because you are likely going to have reroll all hits anyways. It is totally fair.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Huh, the Redemptor's anti-air missile thing (the Icarus rocket pod) got a subtle buff in that it's now damage 2 instead of 1. Small but significant if you ran them with one anyway. So fun to track down all these little changes.
Both Repulsors can take it too, and this change makes it much better. Now it might actually meaningfully contribute to killing flyers. (Unlike the stupid AA stubbers...)
I just take a stormbolter on my repulsor instead of an AA stubber.
Dr. Mills wrote: Which is the "better" quad lascannon user - relic Contemptor with two twin lascannon arms or a quad Las Pred?
My money is on the Contemptor, as for 15pts more you get a 5++/6+++ and 2+ BS skill. Any other vehicle anti armour options one can take in a marine list that pumps out a similar volume of wounds?
Contemptor also has a strat that let's it take half damage for a turn
GreatGranpapy wrote: Huh, the Redemptor's anti-air missile thing (the Icarus rocket pod) got a subtle buff in that it's now damage 2 instead of 1. Small but significant if you ran them with one anyway. So fun to track down all these little changes.
Both Repulsors can take it too, and this change makes it much better. Now it might actually meaningfully contribute to killing flyers. (Unlike the stupid AA stubbers...)
I just take a stormbolter on my repulsor instead of an AA stubber.
Executioner cannot do that though, it is stuck with dual AA stubber. And the regular one can get the AA missiles instead, and those are now decent.
Well have to say I was very impressed with the codex.
Finally having strategums worth playing made me start with double battalion.
Still not a massive fan of scouts to be honest primaris and tac marines did good work and grav cannons dev cents did a good number on guard tanks. An apocathory will be good if I can find the points.
Dreadnaughts still good, tacs are way better, intercessors are improved, Calgar improved, Smash chaplin was rediculous, really needs a way to shutdown overwatch though.
Dreadnaughts still good, tacs are way better, intercessors are improved, Calgar improved, Smash chaplin was rediculous, really needs a way to shutdown overwatch though.
Suppressors might work for that. Really good with smurfs too being able to move and shoot without penalty after turn 1
Insectum7 wrote: UM Seal of Oath Relic is crazy good. It's old school Guilliman rerolls aura against one target nominated at the start of the battle. I can't believe that's right. Maybe they meant CC attacks?
Because otherwise, three units of Grav Devastators can one-shot a Castellan, which is nuts.
It's basically the old grudges warlord trait. Because you are likely going to have reroll all hits anyways. It is totally fair.
If I’m mathammering correctly, I think the new Ravenguard Chapter Tactic is actually mathematically better than the old one. +1 to armor saves results in about a third of a wound less than -1 on average, unless I’m missing something.
Also this means RG infantry models with camo cloaks aren’t as dependent on terrain anymore. Camo scouts sitting on the open table have an effective 2+ armor save against shooters more than 12” away (and then in terrain they *also* get the -1 to hit). RG sniper scouts maybe now harder to shift with shooting?
RG dreads lost out a little bit because they can’t get the -1 to hit anymore. But all vehicles getting the +1 cover save regardless of terrain makes it seem like long-range, stand off RG vehicles in general got a survival boost. 2+ save stormtalons anyone? It might even be time to dust off those old (now cheaper) typhoon speeders.
I am thinking about running the captain as a biker with the wind trait to decrease chances of him dying with adamantium mantle to give him a +3 ++4 +++5 that would make him super tanky. With a powerfist and storm shield to stick on the table longer.
Ice_can wrote: Well have to say I was very impressed with the codex.
Finally having strategums worth playing made me start with double battalion.
Still not a massive fan of scouts to be honest primaris and tac marines did good work and grav cannons dev cents did a good number on guard tanks. An apocathory will be good if I can find the points.
Dreadnaughts still good, tacs are way better, intercessors are improved, Calgar improved, Smash chaplin was rediculous, really needs a way to shutdown overwatch though.
I've got to go first in all my games with the new codex and I have been playing Ultramarines. All 3 games have been massive victories.
Big shout out to autobolter intercessors. They are great. Redemptors really liking bonus attacks and ability to move and shoot without pentalty. It's mostly the stratagems though. Team overwatch is incredibly good. Ability to switch doctrines on demand is also good. Overall Ultramarines have really become a strong melle force IMO. Not penalized for moving on turn 2 with a lot of bonus attacks coming via banner and +1 attack relic plus angels of death - if all goes well I am getting nearly double the attacks in melle as before with redemptors - even considering paying the CP for vetrens. Buff to Gravis captian. Redemptors don't even get targeted most the time because there are intercessors and redemptors in their face and they REALLY lay down the pain too.
Flavius Infernus wrote: If I’m mathammering correctly, I think the new Ravenguard Chapter Tactic is actually mathematically better than the old one. +1 to armor saves results in about a third of a wound less than -1 on average, unless I’m missing something.
Also this means RG infantry models with camo cloaks aren’t as dependent on terrain anymore. Camo scouts sitting on the open table have an effective 2+ armor save against shooters more than 12” away (and then in terrain they *also* get the -1 to hit). RG sniper scouts maybe now harder to shift with shooting?
RG dreads lost out a little bit because they can’t get the -1 to hit anymore. But all vehicles getting the +1 cover save regardless of terrain makes it seem like long-range, stand off RG vehicles in general got a survival boost. 2+ save stormtalons anyone? It might even be time to dust off those old (now cheaper) typhoon speeders.
I felt the same when i saw the change. Its only worse for dreadnaughts. Everyone else should eirher see this as a bonus or actually get this as a bonus now.
My big question is whats better? -1 to hit for infantry in cover OR taking a sucsessor chapter with stealthy (counts as cover outside 12") and the iron hands bonus of vehicles count as double the wounds or the actual ravenguard traits?
I know i am playing in a 1000 pt tournament tomorrow and am running stealthy (counts as cover) and bolter bonus (reroll bolter hits of 1) but i am running almost 50 marines at 1k pts so i plan on making the most of the chapter tactics.
In order to benefit from a chaplain's litany, that is on the battlefield T1, Can a unit arrive T2 by deep strike or does it have to be on the battlefield at the begining of t2 ?
godardc wrote: In order to benefit from a chaplain's litany, that is on the battlefield T1, Can a unit arrive T2 by deep strike or does it have to be on the battlefield at the begining of t2 ?
That depends on the specific litany I would say as some appear to be an aura around the chaplin, while others are placed on specific units.
godardc wrote: In order to benefit from a chaplain's litany, that is on the battlefield T1, Can a unit arrive T2 by deep strike or does it have to be on the battlefield at the begining of t2 ?
That depends on the specific litany I would say as some appear to be an aura around the chaplin, while others are placed on specific units.
You pick a unit within 6" at the start of the battle round, so they'd both have to be there. After the litany is cast, the buffed unit can move outside of 6" of the chaplain.
Had a game today against orks. I lost, but I failed with objective marker placing.. but some nice things from my ultramarines were the impulsor's bombardment and the new eliminators. i killed a warlord warboss T2 with them.
I'll try next to invest more points into character disposal. I take two squads of eliminators with instigator carbine on the sergeant. Deploy them in a 1st floor of a ruin within range of enemy warlord. Throw in a phobos captain with soldier's blade and paragon of war 2nd warlord trait (not my true warlord). I but the captain on 2nd floor so it can see. Now I throw 4 shots with +3 to hit rerolling 1's and get +1 to wound from the sergeants. Paragon of war can do a MW on a hut roll of 6 with the cpt, but it's just there because why not. I had a lot of CP in the previous game from my librarian's scryer's gaze and warlord's adept of the codex.
Now that I saw the eliminators in action.. I don't think las fusils are worth it. Sniping characters with out LoS is huge.
Just watching signals from the frontline and they are suggesting a squad of 10 veteran intercessors in a repulsor. It makes sense i suppose if you use the rapid fire strat and they have bolt rifles that's 40 shots coming at you plus whatever the repulsor has to offer.
Also once the firing is done your looking at them all with 4 attacks on the charge plus 5 for the sergeant who can be armed with a power fist etc. Can also use the strat where a 6 to hit is an auto wound in combat.
Stuff like this in conjunction with Imperial fists/ crimson fists with exploding sixes is quite tasty.
Also a great combo I've found is to just crimson fist liberator strike force and give a leiutenant expert instructor to give him a 9 inch re roll 1s to hit bubble alongside his 6 inch re roll to wound bubble. Give him the vox esperitum to increase his range by 3" giving him a 12 inch re.roll 1s to hit and 9 inch re roll 1s to wound
Rogerio134134 wrote: Just watching signals from the frontline and they are suggesting a squad of 10 veteran intercessors in a repulsor. It makes sense i suppose if you use the rapid fire strat and they have bolt rifles that's 40 shots coming at you plus whatever the repulsor has to offer.
Also once the firing is done your looking at them all with 4 attacks on the charge plus 5 for the sergeant who can be armed with a power fist etc. Can also use the strat where a 6 to hit is an auto wound in combat.
Stuff like this in conjunction with Imperial fists/ crimson fists with exploding sixes is quite tasty.
Also a great combo I've found is to just crimson fist liberator strike force and give a leiutenant expert instructor to give him a 9 inch re roll 1s to hit bubble alongside his 6 inch re roll to wound bubble. Give him the vox esperitum to increase his range by 3" giving him a 12 inch re.roll 1s to hit and 9 inch re roll 1s to wound
I may not have the CT to use this combo as I disagree with Reece here. I play BT, and I love using Vet Intercessors but I don't think 292 points for the Repulsor's cheapest loadout is worth it. It dies far too easily and doesn't deal enough damage to be worth the nearly 300 pts price tag. When a unit gets to that 300 pts level it better damn well be worth it. The game is far too lethal to be putting so many eggs in an expensive basket if that basket can't hold its own against a few lascannons.
Curious for some advice i am building a Primaris army. I have 20 imtercessors, 10 hellblasters, 3 aggressors
Suggestions on antitank. The repulor looks really expensive particularly with all the anti knight meta. Can you run only one in a 2000:game?
Suggestions on characters. A captain babysittng the hellplasters seems wise but also a large tax on an already expensive unit. Is it worth it?
Suggestions on close combat. The aggressors seem too slow to be anything other than a counter charge force. Reivers seem lke they pack some attacks but no AP. Is small squads of Intercessors with a powefist or TH the better way to go?
Does the new walker struggle with only T6? It seems like it could fit the bill of antihorde antitank or close combat.
There really is no reason to play regular repulsor anymore unless you are really trying to get 5 agressors into position. Even then you are probably better off just taking 2 squads of agressors for its price. The executioner is another story. It is still too expensive but it is a lot better priced than the respulsor. For some reason GW while making a lot of good decisions decided to nerf their 100 dollar tank when it was already to frait for it's price. In any case the executioner is still playable. I typically run 2 and they don't really get targeted because the rest of my army is in their face.
When the new transport comes out get 2 of them and put your hellblasters in there. That will work a lot better than a respulsor.
Blinkingspirit wrote: Curious for some advice i am building a Primaris army. I have 20 imtercessors, 10 hellblasters, 3 aggressors
Suggestions on antitank. The repulor looks really expensive particularly with all the anti knight meta. Can you run only one in a 2000:game?
For primaris your only real options are suppressors, repulsor executioners, and las fusil eliminators. I've seen battle reports of people using 2 executioners at 2k doing decent with them
What's everyone's thoughts on the Thunderfire now with all the new codex stuff? the slowing stratagem still seems useful, but most people leave the thing out of their lists.
I need a 3rd Heavy option for my brigade, have around 130pts without other major list changes for it. Part of me thinks the Thunderfire would still be the go to for the strat. But the rest of me hates the model and its already mediocre damage looks even worse in the new codex, so I want to find something else equally useful so I can justify leaving it out. Some sort of AT would be good, but that low of points means I can't consider the good stuff. A single Vindicator or 2-3 heavy weapons in a Dev squad is about it. Or, could always just go with a 3rd Eliminator squad, make it even more dangerous for characters.
bort wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on the Thunderfire now with all the new codex stuff? the slowing stratagem still seems useful, but most people leave the thing out of their lists.
I need a 3rd Heavy option for my brigade, have around 130pts without other major list changes for it. Part of me thinks the Thunderfire would still be the go to for the strat. But the rest of me hates the model and its already mediocre damage looks even worse in the new codex, so I want to find something else equally useful so I can justify leaving it out. Some sort of AT would be good, but that low of points means I can't consider the good stuff. A single Vindicator or 2-3 heavy weapons in a Dev squad is about it. Or, could always just go with a 3rd Eliminator squad, make it even more dangerous for characters.
a Thunderfire with CP can become a really game changer for the right match up, double tremmer shells slowing 2 massive units to a crawl. That's really going to muck up some strategies.
You probably need to look elsewhere in your list if your having issues with Anti tank as this or a whirlwind are very much not anti tank options.
Either HQ's in CC or other platforms make much better AT platforms than a lot of heavy support options in the codex.
godardc wrote: How does paired combat blades additional hits on 6 work with Gene wrought might ?
Another FAQ question, but I figure it will be the same as the bolter drill question and be that the extra hit is not an auto wound because that extra hit did not roll a six which is the requirement to trigger and automatic wound. It's a bi-product of a six, but not itself a six.
Yeah...Sigh, guess the Thunderfire stays in for now. Something like a Vindicator would be a decent distraction target, but a handful of shooting wounds on a knight isn’t super useful if I still have to charge it and kill it in cc anyways.
Which I guess means I put those spare points into a thunder hammer? The cost diff over a powerfist or Teeth of Terra is insane, but admittedly if you’re fighting 2-3x, that’s a lot of extra wounds.
I swear by the thunderfire cannon, its incredible the amount of anti infantry shots it can put out.
I typically run 2 because at 93 pts (unless i missed something they cost about that) with the 2cp strat your getting 12d3 str 5 ap-2 (devistators doctrine) 1d shots at 48" no los needed. Thats incredibly good. Add a full tech marine running them and you can also repair stuff near them. Again i normally run 3 whirlwinds with them. Thats my anti infantry for my list, 6d6 str 6 ap-1 1dmg and 8d3 str 5 ap-2 1dmg with no los needed and 2 techmarines to repair for under 500 pts, before the stratagem to double either/or. If you need more anti infanty than that... we still have bolters on our tacticals i guess? Lol.
If you have a hundred points floating around a Thunderfire is a pretty no brainer inclusion, as it averages 8 shots (16 if you fire it twice). Pop tremor shells and keep the big mob in the front bogged down, slowing everyone else down too.
So what do you guys think is the most point efficient anti tank option we have for dealing with t8 no invulnerable (so ig tank commanders)?
My gut reaction was vindicators but the more i think of that i feel they will just get blown away before getting into range by those catachan battle cannons.....
TFC is actually pretty low yield for damage. The main thing you get out of it is a tech marine and ILOS. Stratagem is nice but also low yeild for CP. You are buying 8 str 5 ap-2 shyots for 2 CP. For 2 CP you can buy 20 str 4 ap -2. Which is a better deal?
Azuza001 wrote: So what do you guys think is the most point efficient anti tank option we have for dealing with t8 no invulnerable (so ig tank commanders)?
My gut reaction was vindicators but the more i think of that i feel they will just get blown away before getting into range by those catachan battle cannons.....
If you want to make them waste that shooting the obvious choice is lascannons etc sprinkled into squads so you can eat the battlecannon rounds with 12 point tacticals make those guard players cry.
Ven dreadnaughts or Smash Chaplin also reck face
Otherwise FW dreadnaughts are always solid.
I'd go for Repuslor executioners. Gaurd is one army the 3+ save on the repulsor isn't going to be a big deal. They don't feild a lot of ap-3. It is mostly -2 or 1. With your reroll bubbles you should down a russ per shooting phase if you fail to go ahead and shoot a mortal wound missile just for another chance at 3 damage. Where as the contemptor dread is a beast. The battle cannon return first is going to hurt a lot more.
Crazyterran wrote: If you have a hundred points floating around a Thunderfire is a pretty no brainer inclusion, as it averages 8 shots (16 if you fire it twice). Pop tremor shells and keep the big mob in the front bogged down, slowing everyone else down too.
I have more than enough anti infantry shots without it (my list has a bunch of Intercessors and Aggressors), but the possibility of slowing 2 units...
I think my top options right now are:
Thunderfire + cc character upgrades of some sort
Eliminators + thunderhammer/Try to work in an additional character
Rework something larger and get enough points for a dual las contemptor mortis or grav devs
Man, Primaris Lieutenants can actually put a bit of damage downrange now. Not something to rely on, but can definitely help especially if your opponent is't expecting it. A random dude armed with a "normal" rifle can be pretty unassuming at first. Also the Belicose Rifle looks like a fun pick. Not something I go for in a competitive environment I don't think, but could be worth spending a CP for on occasion.
The reiver lieutentant looks cool but I don't see why I would take him over the other lieutenants. I will probably pick him up anyway because I like the model.
I am not sure on the incursor squad to be honest. I don't think with the changes to marine rerolls that negative modifiers will hurt marines as much. From my reading the Mutli-spectrum array does counter things like the Culexus Assassin's ability which is interesting. However that model is a character so he just hide behind other units to protect himself from these marines. Paired combat blades are a nice buff. The haywire mine only seems useful if you set it up the turn before you know you are going to be charged. You get all of this for 2 pts over a normal intercessor, but no weapon stratagems. Though the mine is extra. I will definitely have to proxy these guys before I buy any.
The invictor looks rather good. A infiltrating walker with a DCCW seems fun. Both the flamer and the autocannon look like solid weapons and the pt cost on the model looks competitive.
Last is the implusor. I personally think this is by far the best of the bunch. Cheap transport for primaris marines (minus gravis)? Check, A marine vehicle that can take an invul? Check Still has replusor fields? Check, Can fly? check. And hell if you don't want the invul you can either take more guns or the comms array for a orbital barrage.
I really want to use an implusor's comms array and the orbital bombardment strat on an army that is all bunched up.
the impulsor is the clear winner of the new stuff, it's a needed/nesscary new addition. the other stuff is mostly "nice to have"
of the new stuff I'd say the least useful is the infiltrator and incursors which strike me as somewhat specialist. they'll be a god send if you're fighting a certain list but by and large the intercessor is the superior choice for workhorse stuff
BrianDavion wrote: the impulsor is the clear winner of the new stuff, it's a needed/nesscary new addition. the other stuff is mostly "nice to have"
of the new stuff I'd say the least useful is the infiltrator and incursors which strike me as somewhat specialist. they'll be a god send if you're fighting a certain list but by and large the intercessor is the superior choice for workhorse stuff
I agree that the new troopers are pretty niche. Fighting someone who DS’s and assaults? Fight someone spamming -1 To hits? These are your boys. Outside of that they are lackluster and overpriced. Sure, you won’t kill yourself for putting a squad in your list, but you could probably do better for the points. I like how they seem to actually be able to do their roles though. A lot of time out “specialist” fall a little flat. But fixed to hits and a 12” no-go zone are some pretty nice hard counters to a lot of shenanigans out there.
BrianDavion wrote: the impulsor is the clear winner of the new stuff, it's a needed/nesscary new addition. the other stuff is mostly "nice to have"
of the new stuff I'd say the least useful is the infiltrator and incursors which strike me as somewhat specialist. they'll be a god send if you're fighting a certain list but by and large the intercessor is the superior choice for workhorse stuff
I agree that the new troopers are pretty niche. Fighting someone who DS’s and assaults? Fight someone spamming -1 To hits? These are your boys. Outside of that they are lackluster and overpriced. Sure, you won’t kill yourself for putting a squad in your list, but you could probably do better for the points. I like how they seem to actually be able to do their roles though. A lot of time out “specialist” fall a little flat. But fixed to hits and a 12” no-go zone are some pretty nice hard counters to a lot of shenanigans out there.
and just the fact that they EXIST will proably put a dampener on one tricky pony armies designed around those abilities. if you take an army built around spamming deep strike in assault, or is overly reliant on minus to hits, to a tourny you face the possiability that someone running the most common army in the game, might shut you down. HARD
BrianDavion wrote: the impulsor is the clear winner of the new stuff, it's a needed/nesscary new addition. the other stuff is mostly "nice to have"
of the new stuff I'd say the least useful is the infiltrator and incursors which strike me as somewhat specialist. they'll be a god send if you're fighting a certain list but by and large the intercessor is the superior choice for workhorse stuff
See, I think the Eliminators with Las Fusils fill an important gap in Primaris as well. High strength, high AP (they will be shooting at AP-4 in the first turn) shooting is something that was sorely lacking outside of the tanks.
But, I will definitely agree that the Impulsor filled an important niche (cheap transport that isn't a bullet magnet) for Primaris as well. I love the Invulnerable save more than any of the guns. Makes it much more possible to get those Hellblasters right where I need them right away.
Yeah, I mean, I still want to try to cram in 5 Infiltrators despite the high cost just cause there's more armies now that can get easier charges out of DS and GSC, but the Incursors seem to only provide a benefit by existing. I don't really care about the mine and their benefit seems smaller, especially now that a chapter master will let you reroll all dice, not just pre modified misses. Not that the bonus is bad, I think between anti to hit and anti cover they'll often be slightly better than an Intercessor, but they also cost more and don't have strats, which negates it.
bort wrote: Yeah, I mean, I still want to try to cram in 5 Infiltrators despite the high cost just cause there's more armies now that can get easier charges out of DS and GSC, but the Incursors seem to only provide a benefit by existing. I don't really care about the mine and their benefit seems smaller, especially now that a chapter master will let you reroll all dice, not just pre modified misses. Not that the bonus is bad, I think between anti to hit and anti cover they'll often be slightly better than an Intercessor, but they also cost more and don't have strats, which negates it.
If a unit is only good because of strats then is it really good? Units should be able to perform on their own, even if its just when you run out of CP.
I mean infilitrators are overcosted, for what they do, and their weapons are pretty horrible.The best part about them is the generating additional wound and enemy denying locations. and the comms array. But 22pts per a model is pretty steep for a troop choice. Especially compared to the Intercessors.
Incursors seem pretty useless for their cost point, and there is very few strategems to use on them. And why would I need a close combat troop choice that has bad ap and no options for the sgt to really add any variance or support. If you have the imperial fists special rule these guys are useless.
bort wrote: Yeah, I mean, I still want to try to cram in 5 Infiltrators despite the high cost just cause there's more armies now that can get easier charges out of DS and GSC, but the Incursors seem to only provide a benefit by existing. I don't really care about the mine and their benefit seems smaller, especially now that a chapter master will let you reroll all dice, not just pre modified misses. Not that the bonus is bad, I think between anti to hit and anti cover they'll often be slightly better than an Intercessor, but they also cost more and don't have strats, which negates it.
If a unit is only good because of strats then is it really good? Units should be able to perform on their own, even if its just when you run out of CP.
Depends on the stratagem. The House Raven stratagem, Order of Companions, certainly makes Knight Castellans very strong (and they aren't, really, otherwise).
Why does no one talk about the Skyfire Stratagem and its ability to mess up a Flyer's day? Stalkers are pretty darn cheap, and have a ton of shots (and opportunities to generate those double damage hits). Add in the additional AP from the Devastator Doctrine, you'll be putting a crapload of wounds on a Flyer.
Infiltrators are very overcosted. Their ability to push out DS is nice though. Just not worth the cost. Let them deep strike near you and hit them with auspex scan.and team overwatch. You'll beat them every time with that combo. Not to mention your melle ability isn't that bad ether.
Marines IMO function best with a front line of intercessors and you get a lot more of them than you do for infiltrators for the same cost. AND they deal more damage at longer range. Can't be wasting points on 22 point dudes with auto wound on 6 bolt guns. Really want to screen DS just take scouts with bolt guns.
Played another game with marines vs mate's knights. Still lost, still think despite this 'on paper supercharged' codex marines fall over to a stiff breeze. I think one of the issues is the extra pts here and there, extra wounds on a few things just get lost in the overkill before this codex (if that makes sense)
Some thoughts:
Grav devi's with a chapter master and the strat are legit. Took 10 wounds off a knight in one round (of course they were removed in his next turn). Spamming these might work... but ofc can only use the strat on one.
Inceptors with heavy bolters were a surprise armour threat. Came down in his back field and in tac doctrine that's 18 shots at -2, was chipping 5 wounds of a knight. Maybe they were lucky.
Starting to feel a bit of a downer on aggressors now. Yes they can (i used mine as ultra) dish out so much dakka its insane. They never make it into combat though, never make their 185pts back (well done you killed some guardsmen super dead or welldone you took 3 wounds off a tank)... think i'd rather have two more razorbacks. (repulsor is too expensive imo to put them in)
Don't forget those character weapons. Lieutenant with MC auto bolt rifle (i take master artisans re-rolls) -1 with tac doctrine, few re-rolls and with 2dmg boom 4 wounds off a helverin in one turn.
Went to a local store who sell minis on eBay and flogged a load of my old Scythes of the emperor minis I didn't want anymore and walked out with the marine apocalypse battalion set in return.
Now sat on a significant Primaris army with around 3k painted but I now have 50 intercessors (only 20 painted) and am thinking of going really intercessor heavy and doing a double battalion which can just line up and advance into the enemy and smash them with volleys of bolter fire. Backed up by a couple of dreads and executioners I think it could work.
I play crimson fists so it would be allot of exploding sixes for bolt rifle fire which would be great.
Latro_ wrote: Played another game with marines vs mate's knights. Still lost, still think despite this 'on paper supercharged' codex marines fall over to a stiff breeze. I think one of the issues is the extra pts here and there, extra wounds on a few things just get lost in the overkill before this codex (if that makes sense)
Some thoughts:
Grav devi's with a chapter master and the strat are legit. Took 10 wounds off a knight in one round (of course they were removed in his next turn). Spamming these might work... but ofc can only use the strat on one.
Inceptors with heavy bolters were a surprise armour threat. Came down in his back field and in tac doctrine that's 18 shots at -2, was chipping 5 wounds of a knight. Maybe they were lucky.
Starting to feel a bit of a downer on aggressors now. Yes they can (i used mine as ultra) dish out so much dakka its insane. They never make it into combat though, never make their 185pts back (well done you killed some guardsmen super dead or welldone you took 3 wounds off a tank)... think i'd rather have two more razorbacks. (repulsor is too expensive imo to put them in)
Don't forget those character weapons. Lieutenant with MC auto bolt rifle (i take master artisans re-rolls) -1 with tac doctrine, few re-rolls and with 2dmg boom 4 wounds off a helverin in one turn.
Marines are in a good position now but we're not auto win by any stretch.
I believe assault centurions are now 53pts with hurricanes and flamers.
Could we viably just walk them up the board as a gun line unit. If they get to use their flamers or power fists it'd be a bonus, but at 53pts for a hurricane bolter (that's also AP-1 on turn 2 or later and can move 4 and double tap) and 4 T5 2+ sv wounds apiece, they look pretty scary!
Give them the 'stealthy' successor trait for a 1+ sv vs shooting too
Latro_ wrote: Played another game with marines vs mate's knights. Still lost, still think despite this 'on paper supercharged' codex marines fall over to a stiff breeze. I think one of the issues is the extra pts here and there, extra wounds on a few things just get lost in the overkill before this codex (if that makes sense)
Some thoughts:
Grav devi's with a chapter master and the strat are legit. Took 10 wounds off a knight in one round (of course they were removed in his next turn). Spamming these might work... but ofc can only use the strat on one.
Inceptors with heavy bolters were a surprise armour threat. Came down in his back field and in tac doctrine that's 18 shots at -2, was chipping 5 wounds of a knight. Maybe they were lucky.
Starting to feel a bit of a downer on aggressors now. Yes they can (i used mine as ultra) dish out so much dakka its insane. They never make it into combat though, never make their 185pts back (well done you killed some guardsmen super dead or welldone you took 3 wounds off a tank)... think i'd rather have two more razorbacks. (repulsor is too expensive imo to put them in)
Don't forget those character weapons. Lieutenant with MC auto bolt rifle (i take master artisans re-rolls) -1 with tac doctrine, few re-rolls and with 2dmg boom 4 wounds off a helverin in one turn.
Agressors will do the business against a few lists but against other they are going to wiff big style.
Knights are probably their worst match up while GSC, nid swarn and orks are much better match ups for them.
Tacs and intercessors especially as ultramarines have so much chaff clearing potential I'm not sure that dedicated anti horde units are necessary unless your meta is very horde.
DoomMouse wrote: I believe assault centurions are now 53pts with hurricanes and flamers.
Could we viably just walk them up the board as a gun line unit. If they get to use their flamers or power fists it'd be a bonus, but at 53pts for a hurricane bolter (that's also AP-1 on turn 2 or later and can move 4 and double tap) and 4 T5 2+ sv wounds apiece, they look pretty scary!
Give them the 'stealthy' successor trait for a 1+ sv vs shooting too
With a 4 inch move that just ain't gonna work. It's gotta be a storm raven or LRC. If you are just gonna walk them HB cents will do it better even though they cost 18 points more. Instead of a transport take a chaplain to give them 5+ FNP and an apoth to heal them up. Probably best as Ultramarines so you can fallback and shoot and get a -1 to hit from tiggy. You could do it with assault cents you will just have half the firepower.
Latro_ wrote: Played another game with marines vs mate's knights. Still lost, still think despite this 'on paper supercharged' codex marines fall over to a stiff breeze. I think one of the issues is the extra pts here and there, extra wounds on a few things just get lost in the overkill before this codex (if that makes sense)
Some thoughts:
Grav devi's with a chapter master and the strat are legit. Took 10 wounds off a knight in one round (of course they were removed in his next turn). Spamming these might work... but ofc can only use the strat on one.
Inceptors with heavy bolters were a surprise armour threat. Came down in his back field and in tac doctrine that's 18 shots at -2, was chipping 5 wounds of a knight. Maybe they were lucky.
Starting to feel a bit of a downer on aggressors now. Yes they can (i used mine as ultra) dish out so much dakka its insane. They never make it into combat though, never make their 185pts back (well done you killed some guardsmen super dead or welldone you took 3 wounds off a tank)... think i'd rather have two more razorbacks. (repulsor is too expensive imo to put them in)
Don't forget those character weapons. Lieutenant with MC auto bolt rifle (i take master artisans re-rolls) -1 with tac doctrine, few re-rolls and with 2dmg boom 4 wounds off a helverin in one turn.
Agressors will do the business against a few lists but against other they are going to wiff big style.
Knights are probably their worst match up while GSC, nid swarn and orks are much better match ups for them.
Tacs and intercessors especially as ultramarines have so much chaff clearing potential I'm not sure that dedicated anti horde units are necessary unless your meta is very horde.
Throwing a 3 man unit into a list might be something I try to squeeze in in the future. That is a small unit that does a lot. I think that is their purpose investing heavy into aggressors is probably a mistake.
I know this might be too much to ask, but anyone of you mathhammer specialists..
Give us a breakdown points/damage and average damage for:
Sniper scouts with cloaks, eliminators with 3 las fusil, eliminators with 2 las fusils and +1 to hit and wound, eliminators with 3 mortis rounds and lastly eliminators with two mortis rounds with +1 to wound and hit.
Against. T4 3+ sv character, T5 and knight for example.
Two scout squads cost the same as infiltrator squad and creatr a bigger screen, but that's another story. I started comparing sniper scouts to cheaper stock eliminators.. also mortis rounds with +1 to wound is wounding T8 on 4+ (characters on 2+) and D3 damage with MW on 5+ to wound..
I don’t have the numbers handy anymore, but short form always with Eliminators go 2 shots and sgt bonus. I’m guessing theres maybe a chaff clearing case for shooting all 3, but for any real target the +1 is better.
As for vs Scouts, pre codex Scouts won out due to 2x the mortal odds, post buff I’d bet on Elims unless the d3 damage/shot is overkill.
Xirax wrote: I know this might be too much to ask, but anyone of you mathhammer specialists..
Give us a breakdown points/damage and average damage for:
Sniper scouts with cloaks, eliminators with 3 las fusil, eliminators with 2 las fusils and +1 to hit and wound, eliminators with 3 mortis rounds and lastly eliminators with two mortis rounds with +1 to wound and hit.
Against. T4 3+ sv character, T5 and knight for example.
Two scout squads cost the same as infiltrator squad and creatr a bigger screen, but that's another story. I started comparing sniper scouts to cheaper stock eliminators.. also mortis rounds with +1 to wound is wounding T8 on 4+ (characters on 2+) and D3 damage with MW on 5+ to wound..
Xirax wrote: I know this might be too much to ask, but anyone of you mathhammer specialists..
Give us a breakdown points/damage and average damage for:
Sniper scouts with cloaks, eliminators with 3 las fusil, eliminators with 2 las fusils and +1 to hit and wound, eliminators with 3 mortis rounds and lastly eliminators with two mortis rounds with +1 to wound and hit.
Against. T4 3+ sv character, T5 and knight for example.
Two scout squads cost the same as infiltrator squad and creatr a bigger screen, but that's another story. I started comparing sniper scouts to cheaper stock eliminators.. also mortis rounds with +1 to wound is wounding T8 on 4+ (characters on 2+) and D3 damage with MW on 5+ to wound..
Edit:
Naturally with devastator doctrine..
Hardly a specialist, but quite handy with excel...
Spoiler:
Results in terms of average expected wounds, not doing anything variance related.
Targets:
1) T4/3+ armour
2) T5/3+ armour
3) T8/3+/5++ armour
Dev on
standing still/no chapter tactics/no other external buffs
5 Scouts, rifles and cloaks
1) 1.388888889 wounds / 57.6 points per wound
2) 1.111111111 w / 72 ppw
3) 0.833333333 w / 96 ppw
3 Eliminators with las fusil
1) 5 w / 21.6 ppw
2) 4 w / 27 ppw
3) 2 w / 54 ppw
3 Eliminators with 2 las fusil, 1 instigator carbine
1) 4.166666667 w / 23.52 ppw
2) 4.166666667 w / 23.52 ppw *edited*
3) 2.222222222 w / 44.1 ppw *edited*
3 Eliminators with bolt sniper rifle
1) 2.555555556 w / 28.17391 ppw
2) 2 w / 36 ppw
3) 1.222222222 w / 58.90909 ppw
3 Eliminators with 2 bolt sniper rifle, 1 instigator carbine
1) 2.87037037 w / 25.78064516 ppw
2) 2.407407407 w / 30.73846154 ppw
3) 1.666666667 w / 44.4 ppw
Summary:
Any eliminators are always better than a unit of sniper scouts at damaging any of the selected targets; however fusils have no character targeting mechanic (a win for the scouts).
+1 hit/wound is a bit of a wash as you loose 1/3 of your firepower before you start.
Results will vary hugely by target profile - i.e. scouts are much more effective against T3 low armour saves or targets with better invul saves.
Hrmm, the fusil shots with the sgt come out different than I recall from the other thread, but then again could be different assumptions.
The interesting note is that by those numbers the sniper Eliminators are also better per point at AT than the fusil squad as well as giving you the sniping option.
Edit: I do think your numbers for the fusil are off, but the BattleScribe seems to have the wrong fusil cost and I don’t have my dex at work (bs says the fusil guy is only 21pts, which is obviously wrong if the fusil itself is 15pts).
bort wrote: Hrmm, the fusil shots with the sgt come out different than I recall from the other thread, but then again could be different assumptions.
The interesting note is that by those numbers the sniper Eliminators are also better per point at AT than the fusil squad as well as giving you the sniping option.
Better at AT is a bit misleading, they are all causing minor damage to a knight to the point of being insignificant. With the knight example, T8 largely negates the strength advantage of the fusil as it only gets +1 to it's wound roll over the bolt rifle (it would be +2 against T7), and a good invul save puts both weapons on even odds of penetrating (but mortals from the rifle don't care about saves).
Doh, you quoted right before I fixed my ppw typo. Obv the 2 snipers doing more dmg shouldn’t have the same ppw as the 3 sniper case.
I am amazed how much better than the Scouts they are though. Pre dex I stuck with Scouts for more mortal rolls. That 5 str and chance to get +1 to wound is huge.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?
As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?
Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.
It just kinda sucks if you like repulsors and play another chapter.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?
As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?
Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.
Why should Chapter Tactics factor into this? It isn't like the Black Templars or White Scars are getting something out of it. The pricing should be based on them, not Iron Hands.
bort wrote: Hrmm, the fusil shots with the sgt come out different than I recall from the other thread, but then again could be different assumptions.
The interesting note is that by those numbers the sniper Eliminators are also better per point at AT than the fusil squad as well as giving you the sniping option.
Edit: I do think your numbers for the fusil are off, but the BattleScribe seems to have the wrong fusil cost and I don’t have my dex at work (bs says the fusil guy is only 21pts, which is obviously wrong if the fusil itself is 15pts).
After you add the Las-fusil Eliminator to the unit, you have to change the Las-fusil item on the right from '0' to '1', it doesn't add the weapon automatically.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?
As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?
Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.
Why should Chapter Tactics factor into this? It isn't like the Black Templars or White Scars are getting something out of it. The pricing should be based on them, not Iron Hands.
A T8 W16 model that doubles it's wounds for deg and 6+ FNp and overwatches on 5+, with it rediculous amounts of dakka that's worth it's new cost every game.
As an Ultramarines player I'll never take one as it's actually worse than having no chapter tactics on it, goes from fly to fly with a -1 to hit, goes from moce and shoot without penalty to counts as stationary for the purposes of firing weapons so 0 change, yeah but giving chapter tactics it got worse
It sucks but if it's priced for the worst way to field it, IH ones would be the next how many can I ram into a list unit.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?
As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?
Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.
It just kinda sucks if you like repulsors and play another chapter.
AH, I tried searching, and Ctl-F on each page but didn't see it mentioned.
Doesn't matter to me that much(aside from the initial shock); been Playing Sons of Medusa since 4th, so I get all the Iron Hands abilities.
JNAProductions wrote: If the price is based on the BEST Scenario, you end up with a unit that's at best competitive.
If the price is based on the WORST scenario, you end up with a unit that's at worst competitive.
It shouldn't be. Chapter tactics should not factor into a units price because it doesn't factor into difference between units. All it does is punish armies for playing true to their chapters. It's friggen dumb. Across the board this codex was really well done. But absolute morons forced a repuslor price increase. His name likely starts with R - because he is a guard fanatic. It is also dumb because the iron hands trait doesn't affect the cost of the other vehicals that also benefit...like...storm ravens...and leviathan dreads...which are also massively boosted by the chapter tactic. Hopefully they revert the change. Repulsors were dropped in price because they were underperforming. They didn't improve more than any other unit so their is no reason for the price increase.
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's a problem with the iron hands chapter tactics being universally busted not the actual units.
6+ FnP and 5+ overwatch from a tactical or intercessor unit isn't going to be game changing 90% of the time as lets be honest a 6+FNP in codex 1.0 was one of the worst tactics, it needed to be improved.
JNAProductions wrote: If the price is based on the BEST Scenario, you end up with a unit that's at best competitive.
If the price is based on the WORST scenario, you end up with a unit that's at worst competitive.
It shouldn't be. Chapter tactics should not factor into a units price because it doesn't factor into difference between units. All it does is punish armies for playing true to their chapters. It's friggen dumb. Across the board this codex was really well done. But absolute morons forced a repuslor price increase. His name likely starts with R - because he is a guard fanatic. It is also dumb because the iron hands trait doesn't affect the cost of the other vehicals that also benefit...like...storm ravens...and leviathan dreads...which are also massively boosted by the chapter tactic. Hopefully they revert the change. Repulsors were dropped in price because they were underperforming. They didn't improve more than any other unit so their is no reason for the price increase.
Storm ravens are because when was the last time you heard of one of those in a list?
Leviathans are because this is GW See no FW, Speak no FW, Play no FW mentality.
Also you leave my leviathan alone, go complain to GW about -3 to hit eldar, and tripple disco lord spam.
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's a problem with the iron hands chapter tactics being universally busted not the actual units.
6+ FnP and 5+ overwatch from a tactical or intercessor unit isn't going to be game changing 90% of the time as lets be honest a 6+FNP in codex 1.0 was one of the worst tactics, it needed to be improved.
Uhhhh. It is clearly one of the best. 17% survivability increase in an army with 0 invune saves. Most people would prefer -1 to hit though because it is the most BUSTED trait in the entire game. 6+ FNP is a phenomenal trait. It gives you protection from mortal wounds. It gives you protection in close combat. If any trait needed to improve it was ultramarines (which it did only if you spend CP or take warlord traits). I use it for nids (who only get it within 6" of a synapse creature - still hands down the best option except on geenstellers) I use it with Eldar because Ulthwe is sweet - Ulthwe have a really high WRbtw. In many cases it is better than -1 to hit too.
And yes 5+ overwatch IS going to be game breaking. Any unit you charge is going to hit with 50% of their shots because space marines reroll all hits with most their army if they are well commanded. If Ironhands get a powerful superdoctrine its going to be GG for all other chapters. 6+ FNP also got a pretty powerful stealth buff and -1 to hits have lost about 50% of their effectiveness against all these reroll all hit auras.
Also - with assault cents getting such a massive buff - I'm sure you are going to get ALOT of storm ravens on the field. The storm raven arguably benefits even more from doctrine than the repsulor does because it can get all of it's guns into range turn 1. Plus with the Vengence of the machine spirt stratagem a storm raven can cripple an entire army and other than being blown out of the sky turn 1 - there isn't a lot you can do about it.
1/6 is 16.666___ is it not? Realistically you probably would see Ulthwe fly wings of hemlocks if spirit stones wernt a required point inclusion. 6+ FNP works better for hemlocks because they actually like to get within 12" of opponents and use smite to assassinate characters. 30 point saving on a hemlock airwing would be nice.
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's a problem with the iron hands chapter tactics being universally busted not the actual units.
6+ FnP and 5+ overwatch from a tactical or intercessor unit isn't going to be game changing 90% of the time as lets be honest a 6+FNP in codex 1.0 was one of the worst tactics, it needed to be improved.
Uhhhh. It is clearly one of the best. 17% survivability increase in an army with 0 invune saves. Most people would prefer -1 to hit though because it is the most BUSTED trait in the entire game. 6+ FNP is a phenomenal trait. It gives you protection from mortal wounds. It gives you protection in close combat. If any trait needed to improve it was ultramarines (which it did only if you spend CP or take warlord traits). I use it for nids (who only get it within 6" of a synapse creature - still hands down the best option except on geenstellers) I use it with Eldar because Ulthwe is sweet - Ulthwe have a really high WRbtw. In many cases it is better than -1 to hit too.
And yes 5+ overwatch IS going to be game breaking. Any unit you charge is going to hit with 50% of their shots because space marines reroll all hits with most their army if they are well commanded. If Ironhands get a powerful superdoctrine its going to be GG for all other chapters. 6+ FNP also got a pretty powerful stealth buff and -1 to hits have lost about 50% of their effectiveness against all these reroll all hit auras.
Also - with assault cents getting such a massive buff - I'm sure you are going to get ALOT of storm ravens on the field. The storm raven arguably benefits even more from doctrine than the repsulor does because it can get all of it's guns into range turn 1. Plus with the Vengence of the machine spirt stratagem a storm raven can cripple an entire army and other than being blown out of the sky turn 1 - there isn't a lot you can do about it.
Once that happens GW will react to that, surely you've played long enough to know they tend to be very slow on seeing the combos that players see coming, but react to what they think was happening, you could argue the rights and wrongs of it all but GW will be GW.
For the record I also suspect IH are going to be the "competitive" way to marine. Ultramarines were always going to probably see the least buffs due to old bobbyG. But Calgar, cassius and Tiggy can now cary the torch, it just a shame Chronus still can't figure out how to drive a Sicaran but oh well.
Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
JNAProductions wrote: Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
Or you do what people have been doing to Deathguard and just point D2 weaposn at them and they will see a massive 1/36th improvement in durability.
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's a problem with the iron hands chapter tactics being universally busted not the actual units.
6+ FnP and 5+ overwatch from a tactical or intercessor unit isn't going to be game changing 90% of the time as lets be honest a 6+FNP in codex 1.0 was one of the worst tactics, it needed to be improved.
Uhhhh. It is clearly one of the best. 17% survivability increase in an army with 0 invune saves. Most people would prefer -1 to hit though because it is the most BUSTED trait in the entire game. 6+ FNP is a phenomenal trait. It gives you protection from mortal wounds. It gives you protection in close combat. If any trait needed to improve it was ultramarines (which it did only if you spend CP or take warlord traits). I use it for nids (who only get it within 6" of a synapse creature - still hands down the best option except on geenstellers) I use it with Eldar because Ulthwe is sweet - Ulthwe have a really high WRbtw. In many cases it is better than -1 to hit too.
And yes 5+ overwatch IS going to be game breaking. Any unit you charge is going to hit with 50% of their shots because space marines reroll all hits with most their army if they are well commanded. If Ironhands get a powerful superdoctrine its going to be GG for all other chapters. 6+ FNP also got a pretty powerful stealth buff and -1 to hits have lost about 50% of their effectiveness against all these reroll all hit auras.
Also - with assault cents getting such a massive buff - I'm sure you are going to get ALOT of storm ravens on the field. The storm raven arguably benefits even more from doctrine than the repsulor does because it can get all of it's guns into range turn 1. Plus with the Vengence of the machine spirt stratagem a storm raven can cripple an entire army and other than being blown out of the sky turn 1 - there isn't a lot you can do about it.
Once that happens GW will react to that, surely you've played long enough to know they tend to be very slow on seeing the combos that players see coming, but react to what they think was happening, you could argue the rights and wrongs of it all but GW will be GW.
For the record I also suspect IH are going to be the "competitive" way to marine. Ultramarines were always going to probably see the least buffs due to old bobbyG. But Calgar, cassius and Tiggy can now cary the torch, it just a shame Chronus still can't figure out how to drive a Sicaran but oh well.
Yeah - even for the Ultras I suspect staying in devastator doctrine is going to be preferable because It's not like I am not bringing heavy weapons and I can always choose not to move and put 2 units into tactical with a warlord trait and 1 CP. I also suspect the best way to run Ultramarines is going to be as a successor with always counts in cover and +3 range or a melle bonus. The characters are good but they aren't THAT good. In fact most the list I am working on for Ultras seem to want to drop Calgar so I can get a brigade going and take 1 less HQ. It gives me about the same CP and I get army wide stat buffs and only lose out on a little durability for my warlord (who can take 2 warlord traits if he is not a named character) Can actually make a gravis captain about equal to clagar with that ability with +1 wounds and 6+ FNP with the relic to halve damage. Not gonna do that just saying. The special characters are starting to feel like more of a trade off than a real advantage. Which is good I suppose but it just kinda sucks as someone who wants to play the special characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
JNAProductions wrote: Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
I still don't follow.
To find how much more durable it makes you, find how much it reduces damage to.
A 6+ FNP, in this case, reduces damage to 5/6ths the normal.
Then, divide 1 by that number to get the actual durability improvement.
I really do not understand why IH got three part chapter tactic when everyone else got only two part. Any two of those rules would be strong already. It also sucks that the FNP is not selectable as a custom trait, so if you want that extra durability, you gotta go full IH.
Crimson wrote: I really do not understand why IH got three part chapter tactic when everyone else got only two part. Any two of those rules would be strong already. It also sucks that the FNP is not selectable as a custom trait, so if you want that extra durability, you gotta go full IH.
Yeah, that sucks. But then, if it were selectable, probably everyone would run 6+ fnp and always counts in cover.
Crimson wrote: I really do not understand why IH got three part chapter tactic when everyone else got only two part. Any two of those rules would be strong already. It also sucks that the FNP is not selectable as a custom trait, so if you want that extra durability, you gotta go full IH.
Yeah, that sucks. But then, if it were selectable, probably everyone would run 6+ fnp and always counts in cover.
They could have disallowed them being taken together like was done for those two melee traits.
JNAProductions wrote: Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
I still don't follow.
To find how much more durable it makes you, find how much it reduces damage to.
A 6+ FNP, in this case, reduces damage to 5/6ths the normal.
Then, divide 1 by that number to get the actual durability improvement.
Hey guys. I have a friend who is interested in starting a 2nd army and has chosen Marines due to the new Codex. He is only in the hobby 2 years and I don't play marines myself so I can't really help him out.
He is just wondering what would you guys recommend for a 1000pt list for both fun and tournament level. And he Is wondering is there any difference between the Easy to make Intercessors and the 10 man box.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Am I the only one that noticed both Repulsors are now 215 base?
As in a 30pt increase to the CA2018 price lowering for the older Repulsor?
Nope your just late to that rant.
It's justified and arguably still undercosted with Iron hands chapter tactics on that chassis.
Why should Chapter Tactics factor into this? It isn't like the Black Templars or White Scars are getting something out of it. The pricing should be based on them, not Iron Hands.
A T8 W16 model that doubles it's wounds for deg and 6+ FNp and overwatches on 5+, with it rediculous amounts of dakka that's worth it's new cost every game.
As an Ultramarines player I'll never take one as it's actually worse than having no chapter tactics on it, goes from fly to fly with a -1 to hit, goes from moce and shoot without penalty to counts as stationary for the purposes of firing weapons so 0 change, yeah but giving chapter tactics it got worse
It sucks but if it's priced for the worst way to field it, IH ones would be the next how many can I ram into a list unit.
Ultramarines really need an errata for their Fly units.
I just assume the UM chapter tactic doesn't over right fly on units that fly. but thats because it'd be unprecidented for a unit to actually be NERFED by a subfaction rule.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
Odrankt wrote: Hey guys. I have a friend who is interested in starting a 2nd army and has chosen Marines due to the new Codex. He is only in the hobby 2 years and I don't play marines myself so I can't really help him out.
He is just wondering what would you guys recommend for a 1000pt list for both fun and tournament level. And he Is wondering is there any difference between the Easy to make Intercessors and the 10 man box.
Thanks for the help.
Maybe try the apocalypse box set and the marines half of the Dark Imperium box? Add some hellblasters and that might work? I’m no expert so take with a bucket of salt.
The easy to make intercessors only have those three poses and aren’t customisable in any way I believe. If he wants 10 intercessors I’d say go for the 10 man box. The easy build dread however is a good buy if you’re fine with not having multiple weapon options
BA player here. I was interested in buying the space marine codex and build my own chapter: Am I forced to say from which chapter they come from or I can select my chapter tactics and say "these are my shadows angels" and that s it?
Iwas thinking to use the Stalwart/stealthy combo...
BA player here. I was interested in buying the space marine codex and build my own chapter: Am I forced to say from which chapter they come from or I can select my chapter tactics and say "these are my shadows angels" and that s it?
Iwas thinking to use the Stalwart/stealthy combo...
the only time you need to declare yourself a sucessor chapter to a specific legion is if you want to use the material in the codex supplements
BA player here. I was interested in buying the space marine codex and build my own chapter: Am I forced to say from which chapter they come from or I can select my chapter tactics and say "these are my shadows angels" and that s it?
Iwas thinking to use the Stalwart/stealthy combo...
the only time you need to declare yourself a sucessor chapter to a specific legion is if you want to use the material in the codex supplements
so I can simply pick the Stalwart and stealthy combo and that s it and say that my chapter is from unknown origin since I'm not interested in getting the supplements?
BA player here. I was interested in buying the space marine codex and build my own chapter: Am I forced to say from which chapter they come from or I can select my chapter tactics and say "these are my shadows angels" and that s it?
Iwas thinking to use the Stalwart/stealthy combo...
the only time you need to declare yourself a sucessor chapter to a specific legion is if you want to use the material in the codex supplements
so I can simply pick the Stalwart and stealthy combo and that s it and say that my chapter is from unknown origin since I'm not interested in getting the supplements?
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
This is why textual literalism is a flawed theory of jurisprudence.
JNAProductions wrote: Yes, but you then have 16.67% more wounds that can be saved 1/6th of the time.
To find out how much a FNP helps, take the reciprocal.
For instance, you need 6 damage on average to down a 4-wound Plague Drone. If you only added 1/3rd (since they have a 5+ FNP) you'd think it'd need 5.33 wounds, but multiply that by 2/3 (the amount of damage that goes through) and you'd get a little over 3 and a half wounds dealt-NOT enough to kill them.
I still don't follow.
To find how much more durable it makes you, find how much it reduces damage to.
A 6+ FNP, in this case, reduces damage to 5/6ths the normal.
Then, divide 1 by that number to get the actual durability improvement.
1/(5/6)=6/5=1.2
There is a lot going into why fnp is a variable increase in durability than a straight 1/6th of wounds.
First. for every 6 wounds that you save in this way, you're also going to save yet another wound, and for every 6 of these wounds, you'll also save another (going on and on with greater diminishing returns).
Second, when taking these fnp rolls against multi damage weapons which exceed, your wound pool per model, the fnp is less than 1/6 as effective, as taking 2 damage on a marine, you're not going to save that marines life 1/6 of the time, but rather 1/36 of the time.
Third, when taking these fnp rolls against multi damage weapons which perfectly match your wound characteristic, you are getting much more than 1/6th of your wounds back in value every time you make a save, as you're costing your opponent a second multi damage hit on the same already wounded model, this phenomena is particularly noticeable with 2 wound models, taking damage from damage 2 sources, with a 5++ fnp, with 2 rolls, its just over 50% that they roll one 5+, which effectively halves the damage output of the aggressor, when with a 5+ you would normally expect a 1/3 improvement in durability.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
Intercessors are just versatile and great, while the suppressors are very cheap auto cannon fire for any armoured or tough targets (hopefully not too many at 500pts) the eliminators are great too and hard to remove.
With the lieutenant being the expert instructor with the vox esperitum it gives him a 12 inch re roll 1s to hit and a 9 inch re roll 1s to wound bubble for 1cp which I think is brilliant.
Downside of this list is I only have 2cp to use during the game but it's a 500pt game after all.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
Youz a zoggin' git.
And it's important to note that this particular issue isn't even a contradictory case in which specific needs to trump generic. Both rules are 100% compatible. Both allow the unit to fall back and shoot, but the UM tactic adds a further condition of -1 to hit.
Does it need an errata because it's dumb? Absolutely. Until then is there a rules discrepancy that merits pregame discussion or a roll-off? Not from a RAW perspective.
HIWPI is that UM units with FLY would not suffer -1, but with full acknowledgment that this would be 100% a house rule I would give to my UM opponents.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
Isn't that specific trumps generic thing also a major assumption being made? I haven't seen it specifically written anywhere in 8th edition yet, but I admit I may have stupidly missed it since I rarely if ever have to actually argue rules in an actual game. It's not like anybody was playing Inceptors and Suppressors as if they received that nerf anyway before it applied to vehicles.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
Isn't that specific trumps generic thing also a major assumption being made? I haven't seen it specifically written anywhere in 8th edition yet, but I admit I may have stupidly missed it since I rarely if ever have to actually argue rules in an actual game. It's not like anybody was playing Inceptors and Suppressors as if they received that nerf anyway before it applied to vehicles.
Thats how the rules work. The generic core rules are the basis, they tell you what you can do, and you cant do. The special rules like stratagems, chapter tactics, abilities on a units datasheet, etc., allow you to do things you couldnt normally do.
Can you have an army with three different ultramarine 'successor chapters' with different chapter tactics and still access 'scions of guilliman'. Apologies, I can't provide the exact wording of the rule, don't have the new codex yet!
If that's possible it would be super helpful for optimising list building - could have a 'first to the fray' and 'whirlwind of extra attacks' detachment for a smash captain and some vanvets, then a 'stealthy' and 'master artisans' detachment for your gunline / backfield units.
Can you have an army with three different ultramarine 'successor chapters' with different chapter tactics and still access 'scions of guilliman'. Apologies, I can't provide the exact wording of the rule, don't have the new codex yet!
If that's possible it would be super helpful for optimising list building - could have a 'first to the fray' and 'whirlwind of extra attacks' detachment for a smash captain and some vanvets, then a 'stealthy' and 'master artisans' detachment for your gunline / backfield units.
You can do that if they are all separate detachments yes. Your auras however will not cross over.
Does the introduction of the new codex + suppliments supersede all books that came before it in regards to SM? So in other words, did they just remove the last two years of rules bloat for SMs? FAQs, etc?
bort wrote: I don’t think you can. It says something like the entire army must be UM or all the same successor.
If I’m wrong, I’d love to know, cause I had this idea originally as well.
Don't recall anything of the sort. You were probably reading about detachments. Not armies. Why would you be allowed to play a detachment of ultras and a detachment of iron hands in the same army but not a detachment of 2 or 3 ultramarine successors in different detachments?
bort wrote: I don’t think you can. It says something like the entire army must be UM or all the same successor.
If I’m wrong, I’d love to know, cause I had this idea originally as well.
Don't recall anything of the sort. You were probably reading about detachments. Not armies. Why would you be allowed to play a detachment of ultras and a detachment of iron hands in the same army but not a detachment of 2 or 3 ultramarine successors in different detachments?
Its in the individual supplement rules for the super-doctrines. You must be either a primogenitor chapter or a single successor chapter to get the super-doctrine. You cant mix different successors, or successors and primogenitors in the same army without losing said bonus.
You wouldnt get super-doctrines for your proposed Smurf and Iron Hand teamup either.
Cassius is kind of interesting. He basically gives marines acid blood and he knows 2 litanies. So he can give a unit +1 to hit (probably the best use of a chaplain) and then when things get ugly he can give you reroll all hits in CC or something else like +1 to wound a target that is close. Not terrible for 85 points.
bort wrote: I don’t think you can. It says something like the entire army must be UM or all the same successor.
If I’m wrong, I’d love to know, cause I had this idea originally as well.
Don't recall anything of the sort. You were probably reading about detachments. Not armies. Why would you be allowed to play a detachment of ultras and a detachment of iron hands in the same army but not a detachment of 2 or 3 ultramarine successors in different detachments?
Its in the individual supplement rules for the super-doctrines. You must be either a primogenitor chapter or a single successor chapter to get the super-doctrine. You cant mix different successors, or successors and primogenitors in the same army without losing said bonus.
You wouldnt get super-doctrines for your proposed Smurf and Iron Hand teamup either.
That doesn't make sense. Can you post the Verbatim rule? I am at work and away from my codex.
Xenomancers wrote: Cassius is kind of interesting. He basically gives marines acid blood and he knows 2 litanies. So he can give a unit +1 to hit (probably the best use of a chaplain) and then when things get ugly he can give you reroll all hits in CC or something else like +1 to wound a target that is close. Not terrible for 85 points.
bort wrote: I don’t think you can. It says something like the entire army must be UM or all the same successor.
If I’m wrong, I’d love to know, cause I had this idea originally as well.
Don't recall anything of the sort. You were probably reading about detachments. Not armies. Why would you be allowed to play a detachment of ultras and a detachment of iron hands in the same army but not a detachment of 2 or 3 ultramarine successors in different detachments?
Its in the individual supplement rules for the super-doctrines. You must be either a primogenitor chapter or a single successor chapter to get the super-doctrine. You cant mix different successors, or successors and primogenitors in the same army without losing said bonus.
You wouldnt get super-doctrines for your proposed Smurf and Iron Hand teamup either.
That doesn't make sense. Can you post the Verbatim rule? I am at work and away from my codex.
He's right it's on page 72 of the supplement for ultramarines.
If battleforged wafle.So long as, UNALIGNED waffle, every unit from your army is an ULTRAMARINES unit or every unit from your army is from the same Ultramarines sucessor chapter.
It makes sense to you that 3 types of Ultramarines armies/ successors that have access to a rule naturally - will lose access to that same rule if they are played together? I guess they all forgot how to please Guilliman who is the founding Primarach of all their chapters.
Xenomancers wrote: It makes sense to you that 3 types of Ultramarines that have access to a rule naturally - will lose access to that same rule if they are played together? I guess they all forgot how to please Guilliman who is the founding Primarach of all their chapters.
Integrated command and control across three distinct, separate and independent forces is a bitch. Or to put it anotherv way...
Want to keep your super-doctrine? Don't try cheat the no-soup rule with a special kind of soup.
It's a bit silly, but luckily White Scars won't care as much and Raven Guard don't have anything yet.
I'm still sticking with my Lias Bomb and melee Minotaurs based on this. Yeah Relentless Aggressors from Ultramarines is cool, but I'd rather have everything good to fight.
Xenomancers wrote: It makes sense to you that 3 types of Ultramarines that have access to a rule naturally - will lose access to that same rule if they are played together? I guess they all forgot how to please Guilliman who is the founding Primarach of all their chapters.
Integrated command and control is a bitch. Or to put it anotherv way...
Want to keep your super-doctrine? Don't try cheat the no-soup rule with a special kind of soup.
It's not soup - they are in the same codex. Heck I am not trying to do it myself. I play pure Ultras. Ultramarines successors I don't think should get Scions of Guilliman. That should be a reward for playing true with a craptastic chapter tactic. If they get access to it normally though - it makes approx 0 sense for them to lose it because they decided to join forces with their parent chapter...likely to defend Macragge or something. Where they will yield to the orders of the Ultras commanders.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's a bit silly, but luckily White Scars won't care as much and Raven Guard don't have anything yet.
I'm still sticking with my Lias Bomb and melee Minotaurs based on this. Yeah Relentless Aggressors from Ultramarines is cool, but I'd rather have everything good to fight.
For 1 CP you can count as stationary. It's a stratagem in the space marine codex. You are in business.
It's not soup - they are in the same codex. Heck I am not trying to do it myself. I play pure Ultras. Ultramarines successors I don't think should get Scions of Guilliman. That should be a reward for playing true with a craptastic chapter tactic. If they get access to it normally though - it makes approx 0 sense for them to lose it because they decided to join forces with their parent chapter...likely to defend Macragge or something. Where they will yield to the orders of the Ultras commanders.
.
2.0 custom CT combinations are exquisitely powerful, and a capacity to cherry pick three different builds for separate units would be a huge boost. It damn well is soup no matter how you dress it up.
It's not soup - they are in the same codex. Heck I am not trying to do it myself. I play pure Ultras. Ultramarines successors I don't think should get Scions of Guilliman. That should be a reward for playing true with a craptastic chapter tactic. If they get access to it normally though - it makes approx 0 sense for them to lose it because they decided to join forces with their parent chapter...likely to defend Macragge or something. Where they will yield to the orders of the Ultras commanders.
.
2.0 custom CT combinations are exquisitely powerful, and a capacity to cherry pick three different builds for separate units would be a huge boost. It damn well is soup no matter how you dress it up.
How can you honestly say that with the Ironhands chapter tactic existing?
How can you honestly say that with the Ironhands chapter tactic existing?
Because a 6+++, OW on 5 and a superior wounds table means jack all for an army without invulnerable saves in a meta designed to liquify knights in one salvo.
But nice try on changing the subject to your latest bogeyman.
It's not soup - they are in the same codex. Heck I am not trying to do it myself. I play pure Ultras. Ultramarines successors I don't think should get Scions of Guilliman. That should be a reward for playing true with a craptastic chapter tactic. If they get access to it normally though - it makes approx 0 sense for them to lose it because they decided to join forces with their parent chapter...likely to defend Macragge or something. Where they will yield to the orders of the Ultras commanders.
.
2.0 custom CT combinations are exquisitely powerful, and a capacity to cherry pick three different builds for separate units would be a huge boost. It damn well is soup no matter how you dress it up.
How can you honestly say that with the Ironhands chapter tactic existing?
Well the Raven Guard important bit + the 3" bonus to range weapons is pretty darn good if you ask me.
How can you honestly say that with the Ironhands chapter tactic existing?
Because a 6+++, OW on 5 and a superior wounds table means jack all for an army without invulnerable saves in a meta designed to liquify knights in one salvo.
But nice try on changing the subject to your latest bogeyman.
This anti knights meta is a joke. People would take the exact same weapons regardless of knights. Literally nothing would change without knights except different armies would win. If you can't kill a knight you can't kill a repulsor or a LR ether.
Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Xenomancers wrote: Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
Absurd results are discarded. Unless you think 40K rules are superior to real law.
Xenomancers wrote: Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.
how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.
Xenomancers wrote: how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.
Because you're looking purely at *UNSAVED* wounds with that 20%. Saved wounds, hits that dont wound and attacks that dont hit dont care what your FNP status is, and there are plentiful ways of boosting those among non-IH chapters (spoiler alert: they're not stupidly survivable either).
But by all means, please continue on your crusade against the Iron Hands CT, just like you crusaded about Guilliman's nerf being the death knell for the entire codex. It's highly entertaining.
Xenomancers wrote: Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.
I feel it just pushes us more to using fw dreads. IH leviathan with the half dmg strat is pretty tough and also probably our best platform outside smash captains for putting wounds on knights. At least that's how I'm seeing it.
Xenomancers wrote: Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.
how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.
I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
Isn't that specific trumps generic thing also a major assumption being made? I haven't seen it specifically written anywhere in 8th edition yet, but I admit I may have stupidly missed it since I rarely if ever have to actually argue rules in an actual game. It's not like anybody was playing Inceptors and Suppressors as if they received that nerf anyway before it applied to vehicles.
Thats how the rules work. The generic core rules are the basis, they tell you what you can do, and you cant do. The special rules like stratagems, chapter tactics, abilities on a units datasheet, etc., allow you to do things you couldnt normally do.
"That's how it works" doesn't really answer my question. Where does it say that this is how it works?
In this case, a general rule overwriting a specific one would make more sense than the opposite, so why is it assumed that a specific rule for a subfaction overwrites the rules of Fly?
Xenomancers wrote: Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.
how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.
I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.
I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.
Xenomancers wrote: Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.
how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.
I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.
I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.
The Tau Sept trait is good because of its synergy with the Tau ability FTGG which IH don't get. No one takes Ulthwe in my experience and Scion of the Forge is a potential successor trait that I doubt you would take over the others. IHIMO get three decent traits. I wouldn't call that OP myself.
Xenomancers wrote: I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.
Had same reaction, and when you compare these bonuses to other armies, Tau especially yeah, the rule bloat is real. We went from 1 good or ok special rule or 1 ok + 1 as free flavour to 3 very good special rules per doctrine.
Xenomancers wrote: Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.
how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.
I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.
I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.
The Tau Sept trait is good because of its synergy with the Tau ability FTGG which IH don't get. No one takes Ulthwe in my experience and Scion of the Forge is a potential successor trait that I doubt you would take over the others. IHIMO get three decent traits. I wouldn't call that OP myself.
Xenomancers wrote: Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.
how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.
I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.
I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.
The Tau Sept trait is good because of its synergy with the Tau ability FTGG which IH don't get. No one takes Ulthwe in my experience and Scion of the Forge is a potential successor trait that I doubt you would take over the others. IHIMO get three decent traits. I wouldn't call that OP myself.
Nah Iron Hands just get reroll all hits....
Yes, they will be able to reroll all those shots they didn't get against the enemy they couldn't see or the one that didn't actually charge them but still ended up in melee with them anyway. Also I am sure BA captains and other similar units will be super scared of that trait.
I play Tau man, the Tau Sept trait is good because of FTGG.
Listened to a podcast earlier who tried to say that crimson fist units with plasma using over charge against units which grant them the plus 1 to the hit roll (units with at least 5 more models) could not die from overcharging when they rolled a 1??
Is this correct as the way I read it is just off you roll a 1 you die regardless of modifiers.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Listened to a podcast earlier who tried to say that crimson fist units with plasma using over charge against units which grant them the plus 1 to the hit roll (units with at least 5 more models) could not die from overcharging when they rolled a 1??
Is this correct as the way I read it is just off you roll a 1 you die regardless of modifiers.
No, it's a modified 1 that causes a death.
So, if you have +1 to-hit that isn't canceled by anything, you can't die to plasma overheating.
Cheers for clarifying about the 'scions of guilliman' and in-codex mixing guys! Yeah I agree it'd be going against the spirit to be able to tailor each part and still get a super doctrine.
Still think tailored successors could be worth doing though. I believe you could have a combat-based white scars successor to access their strats and warlord traits allied with a detachment of ultra successors to access their strats, relics and traits?
That seems pretty powerful accessing the good stuff from 3 different books and tailoring detachments. I believe all you'd have to give up is the super-doctrine...
For example in the same army you could have:
- white scars successor smash captain and a unit of tooled up vanvets dropping in for a 3D6 charge with their strat and boosted with the trait that adds one to charges and a scars warlord trait.
- Ultramarine successor invictor warsuits that can use the 2CP strat to redeploy for perfect first turn charges, boosted with the 'master artisans' re-rolls and taking 'scions of the forge' so they degrade slower.
Then if there was any relic, strat, psychic power or warlord trait then you could add it into your army in the appropriate detachment
I'm thinking of doing a White Scars Smashplain with a Jump Pack. Give him the relic Crozius and he's pretty independent overall. Not sure that, if I have the Relic, if the Power Fist is necessary at that point though.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, do these new codex's invalidate all prior rules regarding SMs specifically? Doesn't this reduce the rules bloat?
not really, if you belived space Marines suffered from an unacceptable amount of bloat prior to this codex, it was because you felt you "had to" carry around the vigilus book, for one specialist detachment(the only one ever talked about was Indiomatus veterans) and now with the supplements you're going to want to have a supplement with you. so you've still got two books. it's a wash eaither way.
personally I don't really see 2 books as a lot of bloat, the bloat occurs when people wanna run soup and end up with 3 codices, 2 codex supplements, a campaign book, a data sheet found in a cracker jack box, and a special soundtrack CD that gives your unit a +1 bonus to all rolls when you do the macerana while you're rolling.
and trying to tie them all together.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm thinking of doing a White Scars Smashplain with a Jump Pack. Give him the relic Crozius and he's pretty independent overall. Not sure that, if I have the Relic, if the Power Fist is necessary at that point though.
The relic crozius is basically a cheapo Thunder Hammer. I don't see much of any point to take the Power Fist.
Xirax wrote: Anyone found any gems while play testing the newly pimped marines? What feels good on a paper doesn't neccesarily perform. I fear that all around S4 weaponry will be the most lack lustering fact..
Tested out two squadrons of two typhoon land speeders in a friendly game today. Turn one they wiped out a 10-man unit of Deathwatch (with storm shields (I used frag missiles)) and had shots left over, and I had to change my whole fire plan because I hadn't expected them to do that well. Turn two they wiped out another whole vet unit. I had put the speeders in a pocket between two ruins, so they were out of LoS of all the opponent's heavy weapons on the flanks, and the DW they were firing at couldn't match their range, so nothing shot at them the whole game until they ran out of targets and moved up to claim an objective in the last turn.
I tried to move them as little as possible to avoid the -1 to hit penalty, but it was handy to be able to twitch them around in the ruins to stay out of LoS of the big guns as necessary. They're painted Ravenguard and I theorized that the chapter tactic would help them, but didn't get a chance to try it since they never got shot at. Devastator doctrine really helped them, first by forcing the DW player to put all the hits on storm shields, then once the shields were gone they chewed through the 3+ guys like crazy. I kept devastator doctrine up for three turns.
A little shy of 100 points for each of the four models, but they made their points back in two turns. The full size DW veteran units were erasing anything they shot at, so being able to stay out of their range was the biggest advantage, I think.
Sternguard with special issue boltguns in a drop pod are not at all what they used to be. They dropped and killed one guy (the storm shields), and then got chewed to pieces. I think drop podding sternguard would need combi-plas.
I also tried a couple of Storm talons with typhoon launchers, but I played them wrong and they got shot up by bolt guns. I don't think they have the firepower to each be costing the same as a pair of typhoon speeders, and with the changes to move blocking, they're less useful at the things flyers do that don't involve shooting.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm thinking of doing a White Scars Smashplain with a Jump Pack. Give him the relic Crozius and he's pretty independent overall. Not sure that, if I have the Relic, if the Power Fist is necessary at that point though.
The relic crozius is basically a cheapo Thunder Hammer. I don't see much of any point to take the Power Fist.
Mostly in case I wanna go after something slightly bigger in terms of T value like to finish off a Knight. You're probably right that it'll be unnecessary. Perhaps if I just have 12 points left.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
Isn't that specific trumps generic thing also a major assumption being made? I haven't seen it specifically written anywhere in 8th edition yet, but I admit I may have stupidly missed it since I rarely if ever have to actually argue rules in an actual game. It's not like anybody was playing Inceptors and Suppressors as if they received that nerf anyway before it applied to vehicles.
Thats how the rules work. The generic core rules are the basis, they tell you what you can do, and you cant do. The special rules like stratagems, chapter tactics, abilities on a units datasheet, etc., allow you to do things you couldnt normally do.
"That's how it works" doesn't really answer my question. Where does it say that this is how it works?
In this case, a general rule overwriting a specific one would make more sense than the opposite, so why is it assumed that a specific rule for a subfaction overwrites the rules of Fly?
It doesn't. The specific over generic thing didn't carry to 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, again, do these new codex's invalidate all prior rules regarding SMs specifically? Doesn't this reduce the rules bloat?
I wonder this also, does it invalidate options from the previous codex that don't appear in this one? Or are they still usable like options from the index?
Xenomancers wrote: Ill rephrase. If Knights did not exist - other armies would remain roughly the same and instead of knights winning most of the time (they can't win because they don't exist) other armies would win in the place of knights.
Lovely little anecdote. Only one issue: Knights exist and must be dealt with. Rendering anything with a similar target profile (IE: vehicle targets) at an immense disadvantage when they can't present the same level of durability. The 6+++ Iron Hands CT gives does not remotely mitigate that.
how does a 20% boost to survivability not remotely mitigate that? Seems like it's 20% better than other marines.
I think he means that lists designed to kill knights won't care that your SM predator has FNP.
I'm not saying 6+ FNP is OP. It's just thats all it should be. It shouldn't be tau spet and hawkshroud and ulthwe army traits all combined into one with no draw back.
The Tau Sept trait is good because of its synergy with the Tau ability FTGG which IH don't get. No one takes Ulthwe in my experience and Scion of the Forge is a potential successor trait that I doubt you would take over the others. IHIMO get three decent traits. I wouldn't call that OP myself.
Nah Iron Hands just get reroll all hits....
Yes, they will be able to reroll all those shots they didn't get against the enemy they couldn't see or the one that didn't actually charge them but still ended up in melee with them anyway. Also I am sure BA captains and other similar units will be super scared of that trait.
I play Tau man, the Tau Sept trait is good because of FTGG.
Edit: I also play SMs.
You can only attack what you charge my friend. Every Iron hands unit is going to be doublely as effective in overwatch as a tau sept unit. Charging them is going to be equally as fatal as tau FTGG on average. Or it's just not going to kill that much on a successful charge. Ignore overwatch is not really that common. Plus it's not as if a BA smash captain is not one of the most busted units in 40k. Iron hands CT is indefensibly good.
bananathug wrote: Strike from shadows and other chapter specific strats still good until we get a splat book?
you'll need to ask your local play group for how they wanna do it. the most hard core interpretation though would be "no because it's a new codex and they changed and dropped a number of strats"
but for friendly games.. yeah ask your local group
Just got my first game with the "New Space Marine" and I feel I will have more fun than before, even in I loose all my game.... and by the way, what happen to the FW chaplain dreadnought? Is not on the website anymore and I dont know if I can use the litanies of battle with it?
hellpato wrote: Just got my first game with the "New Space Marine" and I feel I will have more fun than before, even in I loose all my game.... and by the way, what happen to the FW chaplain dreadnought? Is not on the website anymore and I dont know if I can use the litanies of battle with it?
It's out of production now, also no it doesn't get litanies as they aren't on it's datasheet.
Captain with jump pack, teeth of terra, storm shield and hero of the chapter (the imperium's sword) feels tasty for it's points. 9 attacks on rerollable charges. S6 ap -2 D2. Anyone used one yet?
Xirax wrote: Captain with jump pack, teeth of terra, storm shield and hero of the chapter (the imperium's sword) feels tasty for it's points. 9 attacks on rerollable charges. S6 ap -2 D2. Anyone used one yet?
Why would you waste his BS 2+ by not giving him a ranged weapon ? You need to get within 1" of enemy models to be able to do something, fail your charge and you do nothing. Why not shoot right away with combi plasma or combi melta, after deepstriking, and charge later ?
I’m pretty sure all previous content is now out of date, including my white dwarf Crimson Fists article stuff. I want the fist of vengeance back, dammit!
It’s actually a really annoying time. I want to play my marines but I don’t have all their rules. I don’t really know which units will be best for my Fists, so haven’t bought any of the new releases. I’m taking my knights to the LGT.
I did convert up a reiver lieutenant last night, kind of on a whim. I quite like the idea of a guy who goes to war armed only with a knife. He might make it into lists if I need a Phobos character for their warlord traits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, according to the post on the nova reveals, index options are going to be out for tournaments in future. These units are getting “legends” status. So far as I can tell this means GW will sell you their rules again, while making them obsolete.
I don’t think it applies to forgeworld stuff, just old GW things. So actually an autocannon dread is still possible, fielded as a Mortis one from imperial armour.
Also, according to the post on the nova reveals, index options are going to be out for tournaments in future. These units are getting “legends” status. So far as I can tell this means GW will sell you their rules again, while making them obsolete.
Not true.
Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments.
Its a recommendation. Just like the "rule of 3", which isnt a rule, its a recommendation as well. Tournaments make their own house rules anyway. Its up to the TO if he allows legends, or not.
Right, not recommended for tournaments. Which means many if not all tournaments will ban them, because the people who wrote the rules say they aren’t supported.
The rule of three may only be a recommendation, but it’s one that every tournament I know of uses. I expect the same here.
Xirax wrote: Captain with jump pack, teeth of terra, storm shield and hero of the chapter (the imperium's sword) feels tasty for it's points. 9 attacks on rerollable charges. S6 ap -2 D2. Anyone used one yet?
Why would you waste his BS 2+ by not giving him a ranged weapon ? You need to get within 1" of enemy models to be able to do something, fail your charge and you do nothing. Why not shoot right away with combi plasma or combi melta, after deepstriking, and charge later ?
There's a pretty big difference in survivability between a 3++ and 4++. Also, you can easily get an 8" rerollable charge with successor tactics and Imperiums' Sword. Even better when you're White Scars successor and add Fierce Rivalries for a nearly guaranteed charge out of DS, rendering your ranged weapon moot.
Anyhow, I'm going to try out a White Scars slashcaptain soon-ish. Mastercrafted Lightning Claw, SS, JP, Imperiums' Sword and Chogorian Storm. Gives 7-9 S5 AP -2 D2 attacks that reroll hits and wounds on the charge, upped to AP-3 D3 from T3 onwards. All for 109 points if I'm not mistaken.
Maxamato wrote: This Captian should have 8-10 attacks if he charges.
4 Profile
1 Pair of Claws
1 from WL 1 Shock Attack
D3 second WL.
Sounds worth for 103 points.
No, I'm opting for a Storm Shield instead of a second claw because the second claw can't be mastercrafted and 3++ is so much better than 4++ IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
demontalons wrote: Give him the additional warlord trait to wound monsters and vehicle +1
Not sure about that, I feel that +1 to wound biggies isn't worth loosing on average 2A on the charge over (and with WS tactics he can charge every turn).
Maxamato wrote: This Captian should have 8-10 attacks if he charges.
4 Profile
1 Pair of Claws
1 from WL 1 Shock Attack
D3 second WL.
Sounds worth for 103 points.
No, I'm opting for a Storm Shield instead of a second claw because the second claw can't be mastercrafted and 3++ is so much better than 4++ IMO.
p5freak wrote: You guys should talk to BA players who have failed a re-rolled 9" charge with 3D6. I am one of them.
Well, there's also a 3.5% chance you'll fluke your melta-shot or blow yourself up when you overcharge plasma. Thing is, in a dice game you can't guarantee anything. Hell, a short while ago I managed to roll 5 1s for the attack rolls for my Greater Possessed, a chance of a little more than 1/8000.
Only thing you can do is take what works best on average, and I feel I will on average be better served by a 3++ than a ranged attack when I have an about 85% chance to make the charge from DS.
Xenomancers wrote: You can only attack what you charge my friend. Every Iron hands unit is going to be doublely as effective in overwatch as a tau sept unit. Charging them is going to be equally as fatal as tau FTGG on average. Or it's just not going to kill that much on a successful charge. Ignore overwatch is not really that common. Plus it's not as if a BA smash captain is not one of the most busted units in 40k. Iron hands CT is indefensibly good.
Agree to disagree. I think you are overeating like you did with the replusor nerf. The two main armies I play in 8th don't really care about the better overwatch, Tau and RG. Tau don't charge and my RG have answers to overwatch in the form of a warlord trait and suppressors. Also my RG only tend to charge what they didn't kill in shooting or something that is already in melee with my units. Charging one thing and then piling into something else to tie it up in melee is something I see people do all the time. A lot of SM unit's overwatch isn't scary enough to scare off the things that commonly charge my lines at tournaments like: Knights, Demon Princes, Plaguebearers, etc. In fact if the Iron Hands only got 2 of those traits, say Scions of the Forge and the 6++, I think we would be talking about how IH got shafted vs. the other chapters.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think this errata was already covered. If a unit has fly the fly bit about falling back and shooting trumps the chapter tactic.
No, it doesnt. You must follow all rules when playing. And its specific trumps generic. The generic rule is that FLY units can shoot after falling back. The specific UM chapter tactic says they suffer a -1 to hit when falling back.
Isn't that specific trumps generic thing also a major assumption being made? I haven't seen it specifically written anywhere in 8th edition yet, but I admit I may have stupidly missed it since I rarely if ever have to actually argue rules in an actual game. It's not like anybody was playing Inceptors and Suppressors as if they received that nerf anyway before it applied to vehicles.
Thats how the rules work. The generic core rules are the basis, they tell you what you can do, and you cant do. The special rules like stratagems, chapter tactics, abilities on a units datasheet, etc., allow you to do things you couldnt normally do.
"That's how it works" doesn't really answer my question. Where does it say that this is how it works?
In this case, a general rule overwriting a specific one would make more sense than the opposite, so why is it assumed that a specific rule for a subfaction overwrites the rules of Fly?
It doesn't. The specific over generic thing didn't carry to 8th.
Congratulations, you can no longer use Honour The Chapter because units cannot be selected fight more than once in the fight phase as per the Core Rules.
Specific over General is necessarily required or else all of the specific rules don't work.
Is there a FAQ that clears up if all previous marine stuff is dead or is that just what we are guessing is happening?
It seems reasonable that all the stuff from codex 1.0 is gone since there is a new codex but stuff released not in that codex (white dwarf, vigilus) would still be good. Screws over my Ravens but it shouldn't be too long of a wait to see what is in their splat book (although they can keep that Shrike model).
bananathug wrote: Is there a FAQ that clears up if all previous marine stuff is dead or is that just what we are guessing is happening?
It seems reasonable that all the stuff from codex 1.0 is gone since there is a new codex but stuff released not in that codex (white dwarf, vigilus) would still be good. Screws over my Ravens but it shouldn't be too long of a wait to see what is in their splat book (although they can keep that Shrike model).
They released a pdf with datasheets for the characters that aren't out yet. https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/. The datasheets are the same as the old codex. I think we are still waiting on word from GW about WD and vigilus.
I am not a huge fan of the Shrike model either but the issues most people have can be fixed with minor conversion work. Though it is good to see Shrike finally has a gun.
Xirax wrote: Captain with jump pack, teeth of terra, storm shield and hero of the chapter (the imperium's sword) feels tasty for it's points. 9 attacks on rerollable charges. S6 ap -2 D2. Anyone used one yet?
I’m curious too since Frontline kept talking up the Teeth, but the nonPrimaris thing seems to have kept anyone from putting it in a list here.
Personally, I was thinking go with Champion of Humanity over Sword (I think I have the names right?) as that one gives +1 to wound vs characters and the big things I’d like my captain to kill are usually character keyworded. I regret losing the charge reroll, but +1 wound with str 5 seems nicer than str 6. But I don’t want to snap my thunder hammers off until some others chime in or I get some test games in.
Xirax wrote: Captain with jump pack, teeth of terra, storm shield and hero of the chapter (the imperium's sword) feels tasty for it's points. 9 attacks on rerollable charges. S6 ap -2 D2. Anyone used one yet?
I’m curious too since Frontline kept talking up the Teeth, but the nonPrimaris thing seems to have kept anyone from putting it in a list here.
Personally, I was thinking go with Champion of Humanity over Sword (I think I have the names right?) as that one gives +1 to wound vs characters and the big things I’d like my captain to kill are usually character keyworded. I regret losing the charge reroll, but +1 wound with str 5 seems nicer than str 6. But I don’t want to snap my thunder hammers off until some others chime in or I get some test games in.
why go with a Captain when you can do the same thing with a chaplain. Also while I get to a certain point the teeth of terra, being a wounding on 5's blender is less smash captain than a S8-9 chaplin with damage 4 and mortal wounds? The one thing the captain is better at is blending hordes but why throw away a Captain for that?
The Teeth of Terra is a great relic, have a librarian with MoH nearby and thats 10 str 7 attacks that you can double up for 3 CP. Combo that with whirlwind for additional hits on 6's and we have our own mini-blender.
Also, terminators seem really good all of a sudden. For fun I ran 10 TH/SS terminators, not a point efficient investment, with a +2 to charge chaplain w/JP and a librarian with VoT. Combined with fury of the first, and Trans-human physiology Terminators have become MUCH more versatile. The 10TH/SS terminators I brought actually made their points back (killed 6 hiveguard plus a whole bunch of other bugs) and only ever took one wound in the process. Still not super competitive due to screening
However, standard terminators will absolutely have a place now. Between Bolter-Discipline, Shock Attack, Trans-human Physiology, Fury of the first, +2 to charge litany, improved salamander/IHCTs, and doctrines terminators have become a swiss army knife that can pump out utility every phase of the game except psychic
Have: 1x10 or 2x5 terminators and a JP chaplain, all SB/PF T1: have a JP chaplain on the board, move near the position that you want the terminators to drop, but don't over-extend, teleport homers are placed on your backfield/flanks/objectives
T2: Chaplain uses the +2 charge litany, use a CP re-roll if it fails. Move chaplain to desired dropzone (total range of 12+12+2d6+6 inch range between both moves, advances, and aura) for terminators, drop terminators and swap to tactical doctrine (if necessary), mow down what chaff you need to, ensure you still have a 9" charge target nearby. In the assault phase, charge and pop fury of the fallen to make those power fist hurt. Tie down what you can to prevent the enemy from shooting back
T3: If the terminators have survived unscathed, keep them fighting. If they are close to death or being surrounded by enemies that you want to shoot, teleport homer them out and maintain that flexibility.
I don't have any normal terminators, but I might actually get some. They just seem to scream versatile all of a sudden, which what I like in marines.
Ice_can wrote: why go with a Captain when you can do the same thing with a chaplain.
Chappys dont have access to chainswords or storm shields.
Who needs a Chainsword when you have benediction of fury, they both have 4++'s and jump packs, they can risk tanking a number of shots on the 4++ and if it's really that scary you should be charging from out of line of sight so the 3++ isn't making a massive difference.
The Captain wouldn’t be wounding on 5s vs characters, it’d be wounding on 4s due to trait. The relic Chaplain will hit harder, but I already need the captain for rerolls. If presuming a Libby handy for MoH, I’d probably stick with the thunderhammer for str 9.
bort wrote: The Captain wouldn’t be wounding on 5s vs characters, it’d be wounding on 4s due to trait. The relic Chaplain will hit harder, but I already need the captain for rerolls. If presuming a Libby handy for MoH, I’d probably stick with the thunderhammer for str 9.
maybe I'm coming at this differently as I am currently running Calgar for that 4CP bonus over a Captain plus strategum.
But in a straight up chaplin vrs Captain choice I'd have to say I still think the chaplin works out as flat 4 damage is crazy against charictors when your hitting and wounding on 2+.
If your talking knights with MoH around he's wounding on 3+ as S9 otherwise 4+.
Sure, if you already have the reroll chapter master then yeah. I’m trying to avoid any named characters until the rest of the marine supplements are out and I settle on a chapter, so no Calgar.
Has anyone seen a limit to the number of Chaplain Litanies that can be cast on a unit, or a limit to how many times a Litany can be cast in a turn? Ie, can I cast the same Litany on two different units, or cast different Litanies on the same unit?
Xenomancers wrote: chaplain is 3+ to gain litany - makes it unviable as a fighter.
I agree, captains are still going to be the best beat sticks. That said chaplains are cheap and are excellent seconday HQ taxes since they at least can act as a support buff. I find other cheap HQs too squishy like lieutenants or too useless like techmarines.
Xenomancers wrote: chaplain is 3+ to gain litany - makes it unviable as a fighter.
I agree, captains are still going to be the best beat sticks. That said chaplains are cheap and are excellent seconday HQ taxes since they at least can act as a support buff. I find other cheap HQs too squishy like lieutenants or too useless like techmarines.
Yeah I'm less interested in them as a hard hitying fighter, but more thinking about interesting combos with Litanies. I want to confirm that I can use the same litany multiple times on different units, or double-litany one unit. Stuff like that.
Pretty sure it's like psychic powers, you can only attempt 1 of each type per round. I don't think there's any restrictions on stacking multiple on the same unit though...
Xenomancers wrote: chaplain is 3+ to gain litany - makes it unviable as a fighter.
Really a 3+ with a reroll is an 88% chance.
People build unit's that rely on psychic powers or strategums that are vectable or denyable.
If you want to stick with Captain teath as your replacement for captain smash, go ahead, but I think the fact that multiple options atleast feel viable is a good thing for marine players.
chaplain is 3+ to gain litany - makes it unviable as a fighter.
A 3+ to get 2" extra charge range and 3" extra each on pile in and consolidate, that you use at the beginning of the Combat round before you move up to charge range. Hell yes that is a great ability. Knowing you will only have to roll a 7+ for your deep-strikers to charge if your Jump/Bike Chaplain is nearby is huge. Fail the roll? Hold them back for a turn or plan a less risky drop location and don't move the Chappy out to an exposed location. It may be unviable to you, I'd kill to have it for my SW.
Using a Jump Pack and proper blocking of LoS, the +2" doesn't come in as often as you would think outside if you running a Footplain. Of course why would you bother doing that?
I guess I'm not seeing what you are saying. Your deepstrikers must arrive outside of 9", are you saying 2" of extra charge distance won't help them? Being outside of los is nice and all, but its still a 9 on 2d6 vs a 7 on 2d6.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Using a Jump Pack and proper blocking of LoS, the +2" doesn't come in as often as you would think outside if you running a Footplain. Of course why would you bother doing that?
Simply put Cassius is a boss, 2 litenties per turn, also stop thinking 1 dimensionally its all abput the wombo combo stack. Use one to drop the deepstrike or charges risk with the +2, and take the beat stick dude with the +1S,A &D to go ham
Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.
Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.
As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.
A couple of key takeaways for me....
Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.
Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.
Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.
Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.
Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)
Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.
Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.
Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.
As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.
A couple of key takeaways for me....
Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.
Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.
Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.
Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.
Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)
Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.
This seems about right, save that I think the Paradigm for Smash Captains has changed. If you are going to Imperium soup and sprinkle one in, I'd go White Scars Bike Captain with MCTH and two Warlord traits. 7-10 s10 d4 attacks with a range of 20" plus charge distance should make anything without bubble wrap at least a bit nervous. For 130-140(with SS)pts that is pretty decent. If you are going pure SM, then each chapter can make a decent one.
I love that the new rules have given me so many ideas for reorganising my army
My list is very fluffy and is based around aircraft and flying. The new custom chapter tactics allow me to prevent my flyers from getting bracketed too early. Since Shock Assault makes mêIée a lot more viable I could fill out my list with assault marines, a smash captain and a jump pack chaplain, then use my other successor tactic to make them choppier. That leaves me with no troops though, resulting in few command points.
However, I was very interested to see that infiltrators and incursors do count as troops. I had been avoiding Primaris for lore reasons but these units seem really cool. Now I kind of want to spam infiltrators and buff them with the phobos HQs and a successor tactic that improves their shooting.
I may also be able to go full Iron Hands. I really want their supplement now to see what their bonus ability is going to be. Could I achieve my dream of having an army that consists of an unkillable Thunderhawk and little else?
I have no idea what I ought to be doing but it is awesome to have so many options
Rogerio134134 wrote: Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.
Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.
As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.
A couple of key takeaways for me....
Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.
Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.
Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.
Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.
Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)
Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.
How come apothecaries are easy kills, don’t they get screened. I’m new btw so I don’t know much
Rogerio134134 wrote: Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.
Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.
As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.
A couple of key takeaways for me....
Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.
Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.
Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.
Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.
Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)
Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.
How come apothecaries are easy kills, don’t they get screened. I’m new btw so I don’t know much
They do but I like to place them with the high value stuff to bring them back which means they are normally in the firing line quickly. Last night I put him with eliminators and suppressors in some ruins and he dies to a turn 1 charge giving up a kill point in the 4 pillars.
Justyn wrote: I guess I'm not seeing what you are saying. Your deepstrikers must arrive outside of 9", are you saying 2" of extra charge distance won't help them? Being outside of los is nice and all, but its still a 9 on 2d6 vs a 7 on 2d6.
Edited for clarity.
That's assuming he's gonna Deep Strike, and to rely on a 3+ to have a better chance to charge isn't worth it. Sure you can use a CP to reroll the 3+, but it seems mandatory at that point.
If you wanted to use a Terminator Chap, it makes sense. However a Jump Chap seems more efficient for being able to chant his POWER WITHIN instead.
I'm seeing a lot of potential strong combos but haven't seen many actual lists yet. What would people run competitively if price and model availability weren't an issue? I'll put forward an ultramarine successor with 'master artisans' and 'stealthy' for a nice boost in survivability and damage output to a bunch of vehicles.
Captain with jump pack and teeth of terra upgraded to chapter master (hangs around with the gunline and provides a cheap counter charge option) 95pts
Lieutenant 67 (takes the relic that allows reroll to wound against a single unit)
Techmarine 45
Techmarine 45
3 invictor warsuits with autocannons 408 (use ultramarine strat to deploy optimally)
Leviathan dread with stormcannons
3 units of eliminators (backfield objectives) 216
3 units of scouts 165 (forward objectives + screening or first turn pressure)
3 units of 5 tacs with missile launchers (midfield objectives) 240
3 stalkers with storm cannons 294
2 whirlwinds 170
Basically the plan would be to stay in devastator doctrine all game. The list might work better with the iron hands strat. Hopefully some of the new books will give some tasty dev doctrine buffs
DoomMouse wrote: I'm seeing a lot of potential strong combos but haven't seen many actual lists yet. What would people run competitively if price and model availability weren't an issue? I'll put forward an ultramarine successor with 'master artisans' and 'stealthy' for a nice boost in survivability and damage output to a bunch of vehicles.
Captain with jump pack and teeth of terra upgraded to chapter master (hangs around with the gunline and provides a cheap counter charge option) 95pts
Lieutenant 67 (takes the relic that allows reroll to wound against a single unit)
Techmarine 45
Techmarine 45
3 invictor warsuits with autocannons 408 (use ultramarine strat to deploy optimally)
Leviathan dread with stormcannons
3 units of eliminators (backfield objectives) 216
3 units of scouts 165 (forward objectives + screening or first turn pressure)
3 units of 5 tacs with missile launchers (midfield objectives) 240
3 stalkers with storm cannons 294
2 whirlwinds 170
Basically the plan would be to stay in devastator doctrine all game. The list might work better with the iron hands strat. Hopefully some of the new books will give some tasty dev doctrine buffs
Some cool ideas, I'm thinking about taking some techmarines (or at least 1) in my crimson fist double repulsor army. Need to get cheap HQ choices and the d3 wounds regen in great
Justyn wrote: I guess I'm not seeing what you are saying. Your deepstrikers must arrive outside of 9", are you saying 2" of extra charge distance won't help them? Being outside of los is nice and all, but its still a 9 on 2d6 vs a 7 on 2d6.
Had a great game last night with my crimson fist force against a very nasty Alaitoc flyer list at 2k points I had a fairly balanced list with a few squads on intercessors and some other infantry stuff backed up by a venerable dread and redemptor and 2 repulsors with one of them being an executioner.
Playing the 4 pillars he had multiple flyers and wave serpents with 3 units of shining spears and rangers. So I basically castled up and tried to spread out enough to avoid being trapped.
He started well and got up in my face with everything and killed my eliminators, suppressors and ven dread very quickly. I used my hellblasters and tanks to push him back and killed alot of the shining spears and a few flyers.
As the game went on my 2 repulsors and redemptor basically went on a rampage and annihilated all the enemy flyers and tanks plus any infantry he had knocking about. I lost the game narrowly at the end but my opponent was shocked at how effective the army was against his very top tier list.
A couple of key takeaways for me....
Apothecarys are not worth it and are an easy kill.
Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles are excellent especially with crimson fist tactics with exploding sixes.
Repulsors are expensive but fantastic if you can keep them alive until mid game.
Smash captains aren't worth deep striking alone.
Redemptor dreads are still great if the opponent doesn't deal with them (mine was left alone and finished off 2 squads of shining spears and a wave serpent)
Really pleased with the army and will be making a few tweaks but I'm keeping the double repulsors for now they are amazing gunboats.
This seems about right, save that I think the Paradigm for Smash Captains has changed. If you are going to Imperium soup and sprinkle one in, I'd go White Scars Bike Captain with MCTH and two Warlord traits. 7-10 s10 d4 attacks with a range of 20" plus charge distance should make anything without bubble wrap at least a bit nervous. For 130-140(with SS)pts that is pretty decent. If you are going pure SM, then each chapter can make a decent one.
You take multiple chapters you lose super doctrine. Not viable.
DoomMouse wrote: I'm seeing a lot of potential strong combos but haven't seen many actual lists yet. What would people run competitively if price and model availability weren't an issue? I'll put forward an ultramarine successor with 'master artisans' and 'stealthy' for a nice boost in survivability and damage output to a bunch of vehicles.
Captain with jump pack and teeth of terra upgraded to chapter master (hangs around with the gunline and provides a cheap counter charge option) 95pts
Lieutenant 67 (takes the relic that allows reroll to wound against a single unit)
Techmarine 45
Techmarine 45
3 invictor warsuits with autocannons 408 (use ultramarine strat to deploy optimally)
Leviathan dread with stormcannons
3 units of eliminators (backfield objectives) 216
3 units of scouts 165 (forward objectives + screening or first turn pressure)
3 units of 5 tacs with missile launchers (midfield objectives) 240
3 stalkers with storm cannons 294
2 whirlwinds 170
Basically the plan would be to stay in devastator doctrine all game. The list might work better with the iron hands strat. Hopefully some of the new books will give some tasty dev doctrine buffs
Captain: CM, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath, Relic Blade, Bolt Pistol
Chaplain Cassius
Looks good, that's a decent amount pf 2+ dakka from the dreads! Cassius certainly seems strong too with two litanies per turn. At least you'll reliably get one off. Rhinos seem pretty great screening units in their own right now they're less than 7 points per wound
Ok here is a list that i was thinking should cover all my bases for a space marine all comers list.
Spoiler:
Ravenguard Spearhead Detachment
Hq-
Shrike w/ Hero of the chapter : 150 pts
Heavy Support-
Whirlwind w/ castellen launcher : 80 pts
Devistator squad w/ 5 men, 4 with grav cannons, armored cherub : 150 pts
Devistator squad w/ 8 men, 4 with las cannons, armored cherub : 209 pts
Devistator squad w/ 8 men, 4 with las cannons, armored cherub : 209 pts
Troop Transports-
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Drop pod w/ stormbolter : 65 pts
Ravenguard batallion detachment
Hq-
Librarian w/ null zone, might of heros, jump pack, plasma pistol, armor indominus : 121 pts
Leiutenant w/ stormbolter, power sword, warlord : storm of fire : 66 pts
Troops-
Scout squad w/ 5 men with bolters : 55 pts
Scout squad w/ 5 men with bolters : 55 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Tactical squad w/ 5 men, 1 with heavy bolter : 70 pts
Total : 1500 pts and 8cp.
Game plan is this : if i go 1st i will have the dev las teams in cover ready to fire. The grav team and tacticals can start in drop pods if needed and deploy out for screening and alpha strikes. Shrike and lib are a tag team able to deal with anything that i want dead in cc. The scouts and whirlwind are excellent horde clearing units (especially with spending 2cp and firing 4d6 shots from the whirlwind).
If i go 2nd i put the devs in the drop pods. Then on my turn drop them in near shrike for rerolls and game plan continues.
I lost again against a Tau player and I m starting to get mad as I m never able to even draw a game! what do I have to do to beat him with a pure SM army? I fail to get rid of his drones quick enough and he ends up tearing my heavy hitter apart...
Spado wrote: I lost again against a Tau player and I m starting to get mad as I m never able to even draw a game! what do I have to do to beat him with a pure SM army? I fail to get rid of his drones quick enough and he ends up tearing my heavy hitter apart...
Depends oh his list and yours to an extent.
Also if your using the new 2.0 codex it should be very close if ypur similar skill levels.
The problem is probably that he is presumably usingone of the two Tau build and has been using it for a while, play it enough and it's mussle memory.
The new marine codex is still an evolving process we are learning the combos that players see coming and we will need a few events to find out what actually works competatively and what's going to be friendly games only.
When it comes to tau you have to kill those drones 1st. If your plan involves cc you also have to kill a lot of firewarriors too.
3 bike squads, bare minimum, with a storm bolter on the srg, gives you 48 bolter shots at 213 pts i believe. Use them to target drone squads around anything big and blast them. Missile launchers are also very effective vs tau now, frag missiles in devestator doctrine do d6str 4 ap-1 1dmg shots, a dev team should be able to kill drones that way then switch to anti tank roll with the krak missiles.
What is his list/your list? These things will help a lot
Spado wrote: I lost again against a Tau player and I m starting to get mad as I m never able to even draw a game! what do I have to do to beat him with a pure SM army? I fail to get rid of his drones quick enough and he ends up tearing my heavy hitter apart...
I don't know how helpful you'll find this, but 3 Thunderfire Cannons and 3 Whirlwind Castellans comes to 501 points. You can start bombarding Drones from the start, and put immediate pressure on your opponent.
Good advice here, long range shooting to clear the drones you can see, and indirect fire to finish what you can't. His suits should pop relatively easily after that. You're always going to lose a hell of a lot of your centre pieces against tau, any list that puts its eggs in one basket will suffer against tau sept in particular.
Had another go at writing a list and realized you can put a serious amount of T7-8 3+ armour (2+ outside 12") on the field. Throw a hunter killer missile on everything (as T1 they can reroll to hit and wound with master artisans and they'll be AP-3) and add a storm bolter to everything for a bonus 48 bolter shots for 24pts...
Ultramarines successor - master artisans and stealthy
Captain on bike with storm bolter (upgrade to CM for full rerolls). He also puts out 8 shots per turn.
Lieutenant with UM relic of full rerolls to wound and storm bolter
Techmarine
3 units of intercessors (if you don't feel like having CP could swap these for eliminators or assault cents)
3 Hunters (SB + HKM)
3 stalkers (SB + HKM)
3 Whirlwinds (SB + HKM)
4 Rhinos (Double SB + HKM) - use these as screens
3 Invictor suits with autocannons
Thats almost 180 T6-8 wounds on a 2+ sv outside 12 inches... The initial HKM punch alone should down almost two russes
Also against Tau remember that they have medium range (30"-36") on everything except rail guns and ion cannons. Through the use of LOS cover and long range weapons you can mitigate a lot of the Tau effective firepower.
Tau excel at killing single big targets, but have issues with multiple tougher targets.
Do you know what type of list/sept he brings and what mission types you play?
I like that multiple vehicle list, that's pretty rad.
If trying to out-range Tau, remember they can move, advance, and still shoot as if standing still with their once-per-game ability. I've lost a game to this before.
DoomMouse wrote: Had another go at writing a list and realized you can put a serious amount of T7-8 3+ armour (2+ outside 12") on the field. Throw a hunter killer missile on everything (as T1 they can reroll to hit and wound with master artisans and they'll be AP-3) and add a storm bolter to everything for a bonus 48 bolter shots for 24pts...
Ultramarines successor - master artisans and stealthy
Captain on bike with storm bolter (upgrade to CM for full rerolls). He also puts out 8 shots per turn.
Lieutenant with UM relic of full rerolls to wound and storm bolter
Techmarine
3 units of intercessors (if you don't feel like having CP could swap these for eliminators or assault cents)
3 Hunters (SB + HKM)
3 stalkers (SB + HKM)
3 Whirlwinds (SB + HKM)
4 Rhinos (Double SB + HKM) - use these as screens
3 Invictor suits with autocannons
Thats almost 180 T6-8 wounds on a 2+ sv outside 12 inches... The initial HKM punch alone should down almost two russes
Haha, I like that Artisans-HKM combo. I would seriously consider running my 10 Razorback with Twin-Las HKM list with Artisan, theres some amazing first strike capability.
bmsattler wrote: I like that multiple vehicle list, that's pretty rad.
If trying to out-range Tau, remember they can move, advance, and still shoot as if standing still with their once-per-game ability. I've lost a game to this before.
True, but if they do so they pretty much halve their ability to shoot for a round because they can't reroll all failed hits instead. Tau players tend to overextend when they do so as well.
Azuza001 wrote: I would drop the rhinos for 3 vindicators in that list but otherwise looks like it would be fun to play
Hmmm, yeah vindicators are a good shout!
I think I'd be most scared of a horde wrapping a tank and making their units unshootable, but the list seems pretty scary to deal with at range. It easily kills a 4++ knight turn 1 when factoring in the HKM strike.
I feel like the stalkers are a hidden gem. They basically get a super-lascannon, T8 and an extra wound for 8pts on top of a rhino chassis! Add in a storm bolter and an HKM and that's a tank that will win in a straight armour vs armour fight against a lot of opponents (and is obvs particularly good vs flyers)
DoomMouse wrote: Had another go at writing a list and realized you can put a serious amount of T7-8 3+ armour (2+ outside 12") on the field. Throw a hunter killer missile on everything (as T1 they can reroll to hit and wound with master artisans and they'll be AP-3) and add a storm bolter to everything for a bonus 48 bolter shots for 24pts...
Ultramarines successor - master artisans and stealthy
Captain on bike with storm bolter (upgrade to CM for full rerolls). He also puts out 8 shots per turn.
Lieutenant with UM relic of full rerolls to wound and storm bolter
Techmarine
3 units of intercessors (if you don't feel like having CP could swap these for eliminators or assault cents)
3 Hunters (SB + HKM)
3 stalkers (SB + HKM)
3 Whirlwinds (SB + HKM)
4 Rhinos (Double SB + HKM) - use these as screens
3 Invictor suits with autocannons
Thats almost 180 T6-8 wounds on a 2+ sv outside 12 inches... The initial HKM punch alone should down almost two russes
Weird question - can you still take a dedicated transport even when you have nothing it can transport?
DoomMouse wrote: Had another go at writing a list and realized you can put a serious amount of T7-8 3+ armour (2+ outside 12") on the field. Throw a hunter killer missile on everything (as T1 they can reroll to hit and wound with master artisans and they'll be AP-3) and add a storm bolter to everything for a bonus 48 bolter shots for 24pts...
Ultramarines successor - master artisans and stealthy
Captain on bike with storm bolter (upgrade to CM for full rerolls). He also puts out 8 shots per turn.
Lieutenant with UM relic of full rerolls to wound and storm bolter
Techmarine
3 units of intercessors (if you don't feel like having CP could swap these for eliminators or assault cents)
3 Hunters (SB + HKM)
3 stalkers (SB + HKM)
3 Whirlwinds (SB + HKM)
4 Rhinos (Double SB + HKM) - use these as screens
3 Invictor suits with autocannons
Thats almost 180 T6-8 wounds on a 2+ sv outside 12 inches... The initial HKM punch alone should down almost two russes
Weird question - can you still take a dedicated transport even when you have nothing it can transport?
You can take one transport for each other unit you take, it doesn't have to be transport-able.
Hunters would be pretty okay if you could take 10 of them. Basically have 110 t8 wounds pumping out a reroll lascannon shooting all game but since you can only take 3...They can pretty much be ignored. Stalkers are much better IMO. If you put them in a reroll aura (you should) they actually outshoot most units and they are actually very tough to boot. Plus you just rek anything with fly. I like the cheap SM mech spam idea.
Once the new transports come out I plan to try a version of what doom mouse is saying.
Vehicles can still be charged, piled into, consolidated into. Even if the enemy cant kill 180 T7-8 wounds, hordes can shut it down. And you wont be able to kill 150+ models with your vehicles only lists. I think dreads are still superior to tanks, because they can fight back when charged, even if they dont have a CCW.
Ah yeah, my mistake. I did mean the hunter (though I like both a lot)
My original list was a battalion and a spearhead for 9 heavy support slots (the invictors are elites I believe).
Hordes would be a rough match up. I think I'd try and play cagey with the intercessors and deploy the invictors with the gun line to have a decent counter charge element. Plaguebearers would be a bad match up though.
Impulsors could be a good screening unit against hordes - can fall back and shoot and they give -1 to charge. I could see arguments for using any / all.of the top mounted options too.
Could definitely see redemtors or leviathans pushing up at the front working well too. Or just more intercessors for anti infantry / scoring objectives.
Xenomancers wrote: Hunters would be pretty okay if you could take 10 of them. Basically have 110 t8 wounds pumping out a reroll lascannon shooting all game but since you can only take 3...They can pretty much be ignored. Stalkers are much better IMO. If you put them in a reroll aura (you should) they actually outshoot most units and they are actually very tough to boot. Plus you just rek anything with fly. I like the cheap SM mech spam idea.
Once the new transports come out I plan to try a version of what doom mouse is saying.
Idea being you can just put so many wounds out there that your opponent cant kill you as Iron hands. Could be fun.
I actually proxied Stalkers on your recommendation with Chronus and I was pretty impressed. I'll likely stick with Ultramarines as I hate tarpitting but Iron Hands is still gold in a mostly shooting game. Best safe than sorry though to me.
p5freak wrote: Vehicles can still be charged, piled into, consolidated into. Even if the enemy cant kill 180 T7-8 wounds, hordes can shut it down. And you wont be able to kill 150+ models with your vehicles only lists. I think dreads are still superior to tanks, because they can fight back when charged, even if they dont have a CCW.
Yeah that is why I'd use a lot of dreads in the build too. Mostly the high wound ones.
Xenomancers wrote: Hunters would be pretty okay if you could take 10 of them. Basically have 110 t8 wounds pumping out a reroll lascannon shooting all game but since you can only take 3...They can pretty much be ignored. Stalkers are much better IMO. If you put them in a reroll aura (you should) they actually outshoot most units and they are actually very tough to boot. Plus you just rek anything with fly. I like the cheap SM mech spam idea.
Once the new transports come out I plan to try a version of what doom mouse is saying.
Idea being you can just put so many wounds out there that your opponent cant kill you as Iron hands. Could be fun.
I actually proxied Stalkers on your recommendation with Chronus and I was pretty impressed. I'll likely stick with Ultramarines as I hate tarpitting but Iron Hands is still gold in a mostly shooting game. Best safe than sorry though to me.
I'm also toying with the idea of chronus is a whirlwind. If you are tapping twice with it. Hitting on 2's will really help. Also that HKM from cronus really hurts from a stalker with sky fire. Hit on 2's likely wound on 2's and with a chance for 2d6 damage. In my last game vs tau he killed 3 units in 1 turn. finished off Longstrike with one icuras shot down a baracusda with the other and killed another hammerhead with his HKM which did 10 wounds on an incredibly lucky roll. Still lost this game though because I wasn't getting any saves on my executioners...
Played a game today with the list i posted up, played vs a guard player who brought 3 tank commanders, a wyvern, a baneblade, and a ton of bodies.
Mission was beach head from chapter approved, i deployed first but deferred to him to go first. I put my devistators in drop pods.
His t1 he put 3 wounds on my whirlwind and killed a scout squad and tactical squad quite easily, but his deployment got the better of him. His infantry got in the way of his tanks and he didnt get everything into effective range. I think he really expected me to go first so was expecting some of those guys to be dead and not an issue lol. I got incredibly lucky with his baneblade wiffing a lot on number of shots and wounds, plus playing ravenguard means i had a 5+ save vs that big battle cannon, so that was a plus.
I dropped my pods down with the las cannon teams near shrike for rerolls and dropped the grav team 24" from one of the commanders. Las cannon teams killed 1 of the tank commanders (bad rolling on my end) but the grav team killed another one on their own thanks to the strat. Very effective unit now i must say.
Turn 2 he moved towards the center objective with his infantry and continued to fire on my guys. Baneblade rolled apsolutly horrible for shot number (he rolled 5 on 3d6) but the last tank comander with a punisher cannon just wiped the floor with the grav team (as expected).
My turn 2 i killed the wyvern with 1 las dev team and the other tank comander with the other las dev team. I then killed more guardsmen leaving him with less than 30 on the table.
T3 he tried to make a comeback, firing on my scouts and shooting the baneblade at the whirlwind again, but only did another 3 dmg to it. We called it here because my devs were just going to blow that away at their leasure and he was losing guardsmen like they were on sale. (He was down to 7 at this point i think).
Overall i am very happy with the list, but think i will continue to tweak it. I am probably going to drop the whirlwind and go pure infantry next but its hard to do.... they are so good now!
p5freak wrote: Vehicles can still be charged, piled into, consolidated into. Even if the enemy cant kill 180 T7-8 wounds, hordes can shut it down. And you wont be able to kill 150+ models with your vehicles only lists. I think dreads are still superior to tanks, because they can fight back when charged, even if they dont have a CCW.
Yeah that is why I'd use a lot of dreads in the build too. Mostly the high wound ones.
Xenomancers wrote: Hunters would be pretty okay if you could take 10 of them. Basically have 110 t8 wounds pumping out a reroll lascannon shooting all game but since you can only take 3...They can pretty much be ignored. Stalkers are much better IMO. If you put them in a reroll aura (you should) they actually outshoot most units and they are actually very tough to boot. Plus you just rek anything with fly. I like the cheap SM mech spam idea.
Once the new transports come out I plan to try a version of what doom mouse is saying.
Idea being you can just put so many wounds out there that your opponent cant kill you as Iron hands. Could be fun.
I actually proxied Stalkers on your recommendation with Chronus and I was pretty impressed. I'll likely stick with Ultramarines as I hate tarpitting but Iron Hands is still gold in a mostly shooting game. Best safe than sorry though to me.
I'm also toying with the idea of chronus is a whirlwind. If you are tapping twice with it. Hitting on 2's will really help. Also that HKM from cronus really hurts from a stalker with sky fire. Hit on 2's likely wound on 2's and with a chance for 2d6 damage. In my last game vs tau he killed 3 units in 1 turn. finished off Longstrike with one icuras shot down a baracusda with the other and killed another hammerhead with his HKM which did 10 wounds on an incredibly lucky roll. Still lost this game though because I wasn't getting any saves on my executioners...
I really need to invest in a dorado dread.
Whirlwind Scorpius would be the best choice. It can naturally shoot twice after all.
Just to check, is chronus in a scorpius 245pts? I know you can often hide him out of LOS, but that's hilariously pricey for a 11 wound T7 vehicle. If you're against eldar flyers, or a ton of basilisks, or just on a board with crap cover he won't be making it to turn 2. I do want to like him but find it hard to justify at such a price for such a fragile tank
the Impulsor is not out yet, but friend o mine and myself wanted to try them out to get a better feel for them, befor deciding to blow money on them
we used our rhinos to "counts as" for the test run,
HOLY SMOKES
Impulsor + hellblasters, hellblaster rush, is frakkin BRUTAL
2 squads of 10 hellblasters, combat squad into 4 squads of 5 befor deployment (because of rule of 3, I did it this way)
toss them into 4 impulsors
toss in a captain and lieutenant
rush them forward, unload, blow stuff up
impulsor is stupid insane hard to kill with 4++
so many possible options opened up with the impulsor and its ability to unload after move, and keeping units inside them very safe and secure
4 squads of 5 intercessors upgraded with veteran stratagem, sergeants with thunderhammers, ancient with banner that gives +1 attack, toss in a chaplain(or librarian), captain, lieutenant .. toss into 4 impulsors rush them forward, unload, shoot stuff
I suspect that we will see a nurf to the impulsor, but only after the sales of declined to a trickle , I know I want at least 4
Gunrunner1775 wrote: the Impulsor is not out yet, but friend o mine and myself wanted to try them out to get a better feel for them, befor deciding to blow money on them
we used our rhinos to "counts as" for the test run,
HOLY SMOKES
Impulsor + hellblasters, hellblaster rush, is frakkin BRUTAL
2 squads of 10 hellblasters, combat squad into 4 squads of 5 befor deployment (because of rule of 3, I did it this way)
toss them into 4 impulsors
toss in a captain and lieutenant
rush them forward, unload, blow stuff up
impulsor is stupid insane hard to kill with 4++
so many possible options opened up with the impulsor and its ability to unload after move, and keeping units inside them very safe and secure
4 squads of 5 intercessors upgraded with veteran stratagem, sergeants with thunderhammers, ancient with banner that gives +1 attack, toss in a chaplain(or librarian), captain, lieutenant .. toss into 4 impulsors rush them forward, unload, shoot stuff
I suspect that we will see a nurf to the impulsor, but only after the sales of declined to a trickle , I know I want at least 4
How do you protect the one that carries the Captain? I mean he is pretty much instrumental in this tactic unless you want to lose overheating dudes in droves. If his Impulsor is shot down you're SOOL ?
that 4++ makes the impulsor stupid hard to kill, on "average" will take 12+/- lascannons to take out an impulsor in one round of shooting (not factoring in re-rolls) (opponent could get lucky, but that's all part of the game)
my opponent also stated, its more useful to just shoot other more threatening things and ignore the impulsor, wait for impulsors to unload, weather the damage, then have an appropriate counter attack response (for him, was deepstrike inceptors with plasma, with a jump smash captain supporting) his counter attack took out my hellblasters,
we also noted that this tactic will be fantastic vs other elite type armies, but will be nearly useless vs horde type armies, either way, it is still an extremly brutal alpha strike, not much will survive 20 hellblasters in RF range - 40 shots overcharging, (with nearby captain/lieutenant)
Azuza001 wrote: Las cannon teams killed 1 of the tank commanders (bad rolling on my end)
My turn 2 i killed the wyvern with 1 las dev team and the other tank comander with the other las dev team.
Did you use stratagems or rerolls? How on earth do you oneshot tanks with 4 Lascannons? I mean killing a TC with 8 LC sounds about right, but with 4?
4 las cannon shots hitting on 3's with full rerolls from chapter master gave me 4 hits. Str 9 vs t8 i got 3 wounds. Ap-4 from devistator doctrine ment no armor save for him. I rolled high on damage, a 6 and two 4's for 14 total from a single squad. A good roll on my part for sure but average would have been 10 dmg so not that far off.
I'm pretty intrigued by the Impulsor as someone running Salamanders, I wouldn't take the shield dome I don't think but rather the missile launcher since it benefits so greatly from master artisans.
Honestly just to fill up with intercessors + a thunder hammer and after that use it to movement block/ be an somewhat legitimate but mostly annoying threat on an objective.
I fear what the money-to-point ratio will be on these guys though..
So I have a lot of bikers sitting around and decided to start a small white scars army. I don’t have the codex or supplement yet but I’ve been reading on line. I have some questions. 1. Is there is a codex strat that lets me give a warlord trait to a non named character other than my warlord? 2. I read there might be a white scars strat that gives my warlord a 2nd warlord trait. Is this true. 3. Can I use both these strats? I want a chaplain with 2 traits and a captain with 1 in the same list.
Maxamato wrote: Does a Assassin, which I include via the Assasin Strata Gem into the army, negate the Combat Doctrine Rule?
This has been addressed either in here or YMDC If you include an assasin even via strategum not all models have combat doctrines so no combat doctrines for your army.
davou wrote: Hey, can we put sniper scouts in a land speeder storm and shoot them on the move now as ultramarines?
Couldnt you do that before the new codex ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maxamato wrote: Does a Assassin, which I include via the Assasin Strata Gem into the army, negate the Combat Doctrine Rule?
Q: Does adding an Officio Assassinorum model to my
army with the ‘Operative Requisition Sanctioned’ Stratagem
prevent the rest of my army from using Combat Doctrines?
A: Yes. Note that this model remains part of your army if
it is destroyed.
Q: If an ability or rule generates an additional hit, (e.g. the
Imperial Siege Masters Chapter Tactic), do these additional hits
gain any other benefits that would apply to an attack on a hit
roll of 6 (e.g. an Infiltrator’s marksman bolt carbine)?
A: Yes, the additional hits are treated as having rolled
the same value as the dice roll that generated them.
So that's an interesting FAQ, I've heard some people say those additional hits don't confer any extra benefits, I guess that clears it up.
make those guard players cry.
