godardc wrote: +5 ? Maybe it's because if my meta, but big squads of gaunts, genestealers, necrons warriors and immortals, even full chaos or cultist squads are pretty common.
In a Marine vs Marine game I can see that being useless though
Thats largely the point. Yeah you'll potentially get it against infantry, but it will never trigger against large targets, or against any faction that isnt running 10-man squads of things. As a result, when compared to an always on ability like the IF prime CT, or a tailored successor chapter, its just not up to snuff.
How often does a knight or a tank get cover though? Not nearly as much as infantry. There is nothing in the successor tree remotely as good as extra hits for bolters on 6's. It is probably as good as any 2 successor traits. Does Kantor still give a +1 attack aura?
Yes he does !
Kantor’s aura is actually better now. Instead of affecting models within 6” he now affects models in units within 6”. That massively increases the range of the effect.
He’s also switching warlord trait to one that makes every CF model within 6” count as obsec, or double obsec if they have it already.
It’s true that the CF tactic doesn’t trigger all that often, but it’s extremely good when it does. +1 to hit tends to provide at least a 25% damage increase. Where you have penalties to hit, such as with auspex scan or against Plaguebearers, it gets even more powerful. I think my favourite use has been firing hellblasters against a unit of 10 blightlord terminators, though that doesn’t come up too often.
It’s odd that this CT gets criticised so much for being situational when so many other CTs are also situational. The RGCT has almost no effect against assault-focused armies for example, while the UM one does nothing against people who aren’t charging you. The non-situational ones like Salamanders are good, but tend not to benefit Primaris infantry all that much.
The bonuses that Crimson Fists get make them really great against hordes and vehicles. That’s a lot of the armies out there. As someone who’s played Crimson Fists since the first 8th edition book came out, I’m pretty happy with the state of them at the moment.
Anyway there’s no real need to argue about whose tactics are better. I think there’s a use for most of them.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - that is a good point. With AP -4 lascannon though...it is almost worthless and very easy to build against. Heck executioners hit at ap-5.
Fists arent going to be favoring lascannons though. Their bread and butter is high ROF weapons where their +damage super-doctrine gets to trigger over and over, and who arent disadvantaged by invulnerable saves pinging off low shot volume weapons.
I'm not sure people who say the CFCT is the worst have looked at the BT one. This might change if BT get something that synergizes extremely well with melee, but for now the only real melee threat is the Smashcaptain, which while good is hardly worth swapping CTs for on his own merit.
Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.
Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - that is a good point. With AP -4 lascannon though...it is almost worthless and very easy to build against. Heck executioners hit at ap-5.
Fists arent going to be favoring lascannons though. Their bread and butter is high ROF weapons where their +damage super-doctrine gets to trigger over and over, and who arent disadvantaged by invulnerable saves pinging off low shot volume weapons.
Yes but other chapters will be favoring lascannons was the point I was making. Plus the next strongest army is probably still eldar who have copious AP -4 also. Sure youll get a 6+ save...still - not that great. 6+ FNP is better in that situation.
Rakdarian wrote: For those of you wondering relentless determination thanks to the fight again faq allows you to disembark after moving .
Source? Based on this precedence I don't think it will be the case.
Spoiler:
Q. If I use the Encirclement Stratagem to set up a White
Scars Transport unit in outflank instead of setting it up
on the battlefield, when that unit is set up on the battlefield at
the end of any of my Movement phases, can I choose for units
embarked within it to disembark that phase, be it normally or as
a result of any rules that allow them to disembark after the unit
has moved (e.g. Assault Vehicle, Lightning Debarkation)?
A: No.
Rakdarian wrote: For those of you wondering relentless determination thanks to the fight again faq allows you to disembark after moving .
It wont. Relentless determination is played at the end of the Movement phase. You cannot disembark, or move at that point. (its the reason you cant move after getting dumped out of a drop pod, and why the pod needs special wording to let its cargo out after it lands for instance.).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm not sure people who say the CFCT is the worst have looked at the BT one. This might change if BT get something that synergizes extremely well with melee, but for now the only real melee threat is the Smashcaptain, which while good is hardly worth swapping CTs for on his own merit.
Black Templars became a threat once they changed the wording of the rerolling charges. Now that it can be both dice OR one, someone calculated that something from Deep Strike can get basically a 60% chance to make a charge I believe. That's pretty frickin reliable.
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Xenomancers wrote: Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.
Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.
Some of the Ultramarine successor Characters from FW are pretty decent, and there's the Characters with no confirmed successor to just use. Huron I use as an example, especially since vehicles now benefit and he can camp with any gunline. He's a decent countercharge dude on his own as well.
He definitely need a point cut but some of the little success I had with the first iteration of the codex was due to him not taking any crap.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm not sure people who say the CFCT is the worst have looked at the BT one. This might change if BT get something that synergizes extremely well with melee, but for now the only real melee threat is the Smashcaptain, which while good is hardly worth swapping CTs for on his own merit.
Black Templars became a threat once they changed the wording of the rerolling charges. Now that it can be both dice OR one, someone calculated that something from Deep Strike can get basically a 60% chance to make a charge I believe. That's pretty frickin reliable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.
Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.
Some of the Ultramarine successor Characters from FW are pretty decent, and there's the Characters with no confirmed successor to just use. Huron I use as an example, especially since vehicles now benefit and he can camp with any gunline. He's a decent countercharge dude on his own as well.
He definitely need a point cut but some of the little success I had with the first iteration of the codex was due to him not taking any crap.
Lias is the only one I know of that is decent. Good enough to build a whole army around and still get the good successor traits.
It's a 58% chance, same as having a CP reroll for free when charging compared to before. The thing is, other than a Smashcaptain what are you charging in from Deep Strike that is actually good?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: It's a 58% chance, same as having a CP reroll for free when charging compared to before. The thing is, other than a Smashcaptain what are you charging in from Deep Strike that is actually good?
Dual Chainsword Vets for later chaff clearing and Assault Terminators are a good choice against Knights now that they get an additional attack and that one strat that will let them still hit on a 3+ (aka two hits a Terminator). For the former I'd likely just want White Scars but they're a cheap way to go about getting an advantage from it.
Xenomancers wrote: Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.
Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.
But you can use CT, stratagems and relics even with successors anyway
AlmightyWalrus wrote: It's a 58% chance, same as having a CP reroll for free when charging compared to before. The thing is, other than a Smashcaptain what are you charging in from Deep Strike that is actually good?
Xenomancers wrote: Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.
Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.
But you can use CT, stratagems and relics even with successors anyway
He's saying he would lose access to Calgar and Tigger, which is definitely a good point to remember.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm not sure people who say the CFCT is the worst have looked at the BT one. This might change if BT get something that synergizes extremely well with melee, but for now the only real melee threat is the Smashcaptain, which while good is hardly worth swapping CTs for on his own merit.
Black Templars became a threat once they changed the wording of the rerolling charges. Now that it can be both dice OR one, someone calculated that something from Deep Strike can get basically a 60% chance to make a charge I believe. That's pretty frickin reliable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.
Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.
Some of the Ultramarine successor Characters from FW are pretty decent, and there's the Characters with no confirmed successor to just use. Huron I use as an example, especially since vehicles now benefit and he can camp with any gunline. He's a decent countercharge dude on his own as well.
He definitely need a point cut but some of the little success I had with the first iteration of the codex was due to him not taking any crap.
Lias is the only one I know of that is decent. Good enough to build a whole army around and still get the good successor traits.
I argue in favor of Huron (probably to be ran as an Imperial Fists successor because it's an artillery list) and using Asterion as a Counts-As White Scars successor, because advancing and charging with a reroll on that charge is pretty darn nasty. I did that recently with a pure Scars list and it did fairly okay actually.
Xenomancers wrote: Ignore cover is generally better. It is not massively better though. It certainly doesn't make crimson fists the worst chapter tactic. 6's for extra autohits is straight up beast.
Does it beat out successors? IDK...relics and characters usually swing the difference there. I know as an ultramarines player I basically can't play successors because I lose both the best CM and Libby in the game and the fallback shoot and charge stratagem only works on Ultramarines. Plus the +1 attack aura relic...Plus the tactical doctrine switch over warlord trait...Even with the worse tactic I am better off being pure ultras.
But you can use CT, stratagems and relics even with successors anyway
58% is barley better than a coinflip though. It can synergize with a bike Chaplain for extra charge range I guess, but it's still the worst CTIMO. Fortunately the CTs have only been part of the toolbox so far, so I'm cautiously optimistic.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: 58% is barley better than a coinflip though. It can synergize with a bike Chaplain for extra charge range I guess, but it's still the worst CTIMO. Fortunately the CTs have only been part of the toolbox so far, so I'm cautiously optimistic.
They also get the 5+++ from mortal wound shenanigans, even outside the Psychic phase. That's actually a really good value.
godardc wrote: Has anyone done anything with White Scars yet ? They seem very rewarding well played.
I'm having issues envisioning a build that makes them at all equal to Iron Hands or Imperial Fists sadly. I like me some bikes and melee in my marine armies, but why when you can just blast stuff off the board turn 1 and 2 with heavy weapons?
Only one so far. I bounced my heavy melee off of a ball of 18 Thunderwolves with Space Wolf character support. I'm not super-experienced, so the artifact that inflicts 'fight last' destroyed me in that fight.
That said, if I had played that game slightly differently I would have won fairly easily. I'm happy with my list, I just need to learn how to play it better.
The amount of pressure that Raven Guard can inflict is pretty immense. For example, my list will put a unit of 6 assault centurions and two units of thunder hammer vanguard veterans with character support into a first turn charge pretty much automatically. If I lose 1st turn, I can fade back after the seize roll to avoid the counter alpha strike.
I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?
I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.
godardc wrote: Has anyone done anything with White Scars yet ? They seem very rewarding well played.
I ran a 1k list in a very casual game and was impressed, although I'm very new to 8E Marines and my opponent was working out the bugs in a new Ork list (Speed Freeks box-based), so it was a glitchy game. I ran three different Captains that were all very smash-y, and the ridiculous charge range really shrinks the board and allows you to choose your matchups. Effective HQ delivery, screening, and low model count were my issues.
Smirrors wrote: I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?
I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.
This could work. I think Deredeos are in a really good place now. I definitely think they’ll have a place in my Crimson Fist army. I’m thinking of getting a second one.
Rounding out the last of my templar crusader squads. I've got about 6 bodies. Was thinking of just more bolt-pistol + chainsword boys for my black, mostly footslogging, not-competative-but-geez-guys-I-just-love-building-tactical-marines horde...
...However, I noticed I have a spare lascannon, and 2 plasma cannons, just knocking about...
...What do we reckon to those as just-toss-into-my-collection? I've already got 6 lascannoneers, but no plasma cannon. Or are more just choppy/shooty crusaders better?
Smirrors wrote: I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?
I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.
I may be wrong but I believe the deredeo invul you have to be fully within 6" to get it so it probably wont be able to cover many planes.
That being said I'm really interested in them in IF. Making the autocannons dmg 3 is very nice and you can protect a key unit or 2 with the invul.
Smirrors wrote: I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?
I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.
I may be wrong but I believe the deredeo invul you have to be fully within 6" to get it so it probably wont be able to cover many planes.
That being said I'm really interested in them in IF. Making the autocannons dmg 3 is very nice and you can protect a key unit or 2 with the invul.
You know what fits in their aura fully? 3 Ven Gun Dreads. I did that and it was buckets of fun.
So took veteran intercessors tonight in my crimson fist army with Pedro Kantor. Took 9 in repulsor plus Pedro... They were great. 5 attacks each on the charge is insane!
I may be wrong but I believe the deredeo invul you have to be fully within 6" to get it so it probably wont be able to cover many planes.
That being said I'm really interested in them in IF. Making the autocannons dmg 3 is very nice and you can protect a key unit or 2 with the invul.
I have done the maths and its not as janky as trying to fit repulsors in the aura :p
6" = 152.4mm
Citadel Oval Base 120mm x92mm
So you can surround the Deredeo with 5 planes quite comfortably and make sure they are pointing in the right direction.
I like the deredeos 36" threat range.
EDIT: I measured and you can comfortably fit 6 planes with room to angle them in a pretty flexible formation. What I plan on doing is make a cardboard deployment sheet so that me and my opponent can see exactly how far his aura goes. Will also allow me to tactically deploy and angle the planes based on terrain and enemy types.
I may be wrong but I believe the deredeo invul you have to be fully within 6" to get it so it probably wont be able to cover many planes.
That being said I'm really interested in them in IF. Making the autocannons dmg 3 is very nice and you can protect a key unit or 2 with the invul.
I have done the maths and its not as janky as trying to fit repulsors in the aura :p
6" = 152.4mm
Citadel Oval Base 120mm x92mm
So you can surround the Deredeo with 5 planes quite comfortably and make sure they are pointing in the right direction.
I like the deredeos 36" threat range.
EDIT: I measured and you can comfortably fit 6 planes with room to angle them in a pretty flexible formation. What I plan on doing is make a cardboard deployment sheet so that me and my opponent can see exactly how far his aura goes. Will also allow me to tactically deploy and angle the planes based on terrain and enemy types.
Didn't Flyers get FAQ'd that the whole model counts for thing's suck as no overhanging board edges no overlapping position etc.
I really hope CA nerfs flyers out the game as they are going to get so much stuff that's not a problem 99% of the time nerfed and the flyers still be a problem.
Just a quick question regarding captain sicarius and his warlord trait. Just looking at the rules again and from my understanding, we’re he to roll an Unmodified 6 to wound with his sword it would cause d3+1 mortal wounds yes?
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Just a quick question regarding captain sicarius and his warlord trait. Just looking at the rules again and from my understanding, we’re he to roll an Unmodified 6 to wound with his sword it would cause d3+1 mortal wounds yes?
Yes. His sword does d3 on a 6 and his WL trait does 1. d3 +1.
Rakdarian wrote: For those of you wondering relentless determination thanks to the fight again faq allows you to disembark after moving .
It wont. Relentless determination is played at the end of the Movement phase. You cannot disembark, or move at that point. (its the reason you cant move after getting dumped out of a drop pod, and why the pod needs special wording to let its cargo out after it lands for instance.).
Actually the reason you cannot disembark and move at the end of the movement phase is because theres a special rule taht says after deepstriking you cant make any movement except for charges.
Without that you would have been able to move after deepstriking
Have you tried an ironclad ? It's quite cheap and resilient / resistant with easy ways to increase it, it benefits from the bolter rule and many CT/super doctrines, and hit very strongly. If only it moved more or could go in a pod...
godardc wrote: Have you tried an ironclad ? It's quite cheap and resilient / resistant with easy ways to increase it, it benefits from the bolter rule and many CT/super doctrines, and hit very strongly. If only it moved more or could go in a pod...
So 2 things I've noticed recently which may have been covered already...
Chaplains with the crozius relic and the mantra of strength become combat beasts! St 7 with 6 attacks first round of combat at ST 7 flat 4 damage that's pretty terrifying.
Also Imperial fist las fusils are flat 4 damage and minus 4 ap! Stick the tank Hunter strat on them for +1 to wound a vehicle and they are very hard to shift from cover and hard hitting against vehicles for relatively low cost.
Rogerio134134 wrote: So 2 things I've noticed recently which may have been covered already...
Chaplains with the crozius relic and the mantra of strength become combat beasts! St 7 with 6 attacks first round of combat at ST 7 flat 4 damage that's pretty terrifying.
Also Imperial fist las fusils are flat 4 damage and minus 4 ap! Stick the tank Hunter strat on them for +1 to wound a vehicle and they are very hard to shift from cover and hard hitting against vehicles for relatively low cost.
Few issues with that Las fusil suggestion. Firstly, the sniper rifles provide such a great value that they're worth using just for their specific role. It's hard to give up str 5 character targetting bolt weapons for Fists, especially since their capabilities do not rely on the doctrine. After all, those las fusils are going to still be 3 damage against Tau, Nids, and infantry heavy armies like daemons, GSC, Orks, etc. where you might actually prefer the ability to put some wounds on characters.
But given how the meta is shaking up to be Iron Hands all day, every day, I imagine those las fusils will see use in every single game.
Though I'd not suggest using Tank Hunters on a unit like Las fusils routinely. There's too few shots to make it truly worthwhile, I think. Better to throw that stratagem on something that has trouble wounding, but will drown the target in buckets of dice.
Once again, heavy bolter Centurions seem a pretty decent fit for that stratagem. What can't these guys do? (Trick question: they cannot look cool)
And point for point IF eliminators with sniper rifle isnt that far behind the las fusils against vehicle with good invulnerable save. They benefit from exploding 6s, cause mortal wounds and they do d3+1 damage. And when not firing against vehicles the ignore cover CT is great on them.
I think IF are the chapter that benefit the least from Las Fusil over just sniper rifles. Not that Las Fusil isnt good but the sniper rifles are just so much better
Rakdarian wrote: For those of you wondering relentless determination thanks to the fight again faq allows you to disembark after moving .
It wont. Relentless determination is played at the end of the Movement phase. You cannot disembark, or move at that point. (its the reason you cant move after getting dumped out of a drop pod, and why the pod needs special wording to let its cargo out after it lands for instance.).
Actually the reason you cannot disembark and move at the end of the movement phase is because theres a special rule taht says after deepstriking you cant make any movement except for charges.
Without that you would have been able to move after deepstriking
It has nothing to do with deepstriking. It has to do with the fact that disembarking occurs during the movement phase, and the stratagem is played at the end of the phase.
Actually the reason you cannot disembark and move at the end of the movement phase is because theres a special rule taht says after deepstriking you cant make any movement except for charges.
Without that you would have been able to move after deepstriking
Incorrect. Movement occurs during the movement phase. Drop pods appear at the end of the movement phase. To move, the contained units would have to then move *after* the end of the movement phase, which is A) not a part of the movement phase, B) isnt an actual thing in 8th, and C) the reason podded units cant move the same turn they dropped.
Special rules prevent external abilities (psyker powers, strats, etc) from moving deepstruck units in later phases of the same turn they came in.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Gutted Pedro can't go on the repulsor that's very annoying, was such a great combo. I suppose I could just footslog them all forward though.
Honestly, considering how good the Primaris Transports are, I just don't understand the rule preventing regular Marines from riding. Wouldn't they want people dropping $75-$80 on a transport? It seems more likely than expecting people to buy transports and things to transport.
I guess Pedro is just going to have to March with my Aggressors up the field.
godardc wrote: When is it more advantageous to take a predator autocannon rather than the twin linked lascannons ? Seeing as it is the same price now
I would think Imperial Fists should always take Autocannons on their Predators. Str 7 AP-2 4D is quite nice. And it has the shot count to be useful against other stuff too.
So looking through the imperial fist and salamander codexes and I have to say.... I feel the imperial fist one isn't as good per say. What I mean is, what makes imperial fists good is their super doctrine and chapter tactics. Their strats and relics seem ok by themselves (I am not taking vigilus defiant into account because anyone who expects that broken combo to stick around post faq is probably going to be upset) but without their 2 basic abilities they don't have a lot going on.
Salamanders on the other hand have quite a few things going on. For example, take a captain on bike, make him your warlord, give him your 2nd warlord trait, give him +2 str and +2 toughness traits, a thunder hammer, a storm shield, and you have a guy who is cheaper than a deamon prince putting out str 12 hits at toughness 7. Cast might of heros on him and bam, str 14 hits and t8..... he is tougher than a predator tank!
Librarian is no slouch either. Give him the relic book to take a power from the salamanders and he can have null zone, might of heros, and burning hands making him a tactical support unit that can also actually kill things in cc.
Aggressors are a no brainer, but multimelta dev teams in drop pods with vulcan are pretty terrifying to think about now.
I see all this and look at imperial fists and don't get the same feeling from its options. Am I missing something?
I would suggest that the Imperial Fists are simpler in execution. They make heavy bolter spam viable, where you can handle hordes and vehicles with the same basic weapon. They also do the gun-line pretty well. You can throw Repulsors or Impulsors forward as your screen, then throw the -2 charge range psychic power on them for a -4 to charge rolls. Their fliers will also be useful in the current meta since they do twice as much damage to other fliers as other space marine fliers do. Iron Hands fliers are one of the stronger elements to the army post FAQ.
I also think that Imperial Fists will be somewhat dull to play. That's my opinion though, and others will have their own.
Imperial Fists seem to be the offensive focused marines. Their best abilities are focused on increasing their damage output with ranged weapons. They don't seem to have a lot of defensive tech like Iron Hands or "tricks" like Raven Guard or White Scars.
What they do is rather straight forward, and they are good at it. I do think Imperial Fists will do VERY well on tables with little to no LOS blocking terrain.
I think you may be cutting IF short on defensive abilities. Two +1 to save stratagems, one 6++ stratagem, one ignore rend -1 warlord trait aura, plus two very good tank warlord traits.
What do you think of heavy Hellblasters? With damage 3, tank hunters and rerolls they are respectable anti tank putting 12 wounds on a t8 no invul vehicle.
I discovered a pointless but fun combo, too.
An Eliminator sergeant shooting executioner rounds with the Gatebreaker bolts special issue wargear: no shots lost, hit on 2+ against almost anything, S5, 1d3 wound rolls, ap -5. Nice or not?
Edit: more cheeky IF tactics.Forward deployed Scouts move within 6 of the enemy first turn and throw 5 Krak grenades (through stratagem) at a light tank/light monster/heavy infantry squad, benefiting from -1ap of Devastator doctrine. A legit threat?
Also, a better use of the Close range fire stratagem is to shoot from outside a combat to support a tarpit, I think. Pistol 6 assault Bolters from 18 or pistol 6 Autobot gauntlets + charge afterwards sound both useful.
So, as a heads up magnetizing the impulsoris gonna be pretty easy. even an amataur modeler who doesn't like to cut anything up should be able to get magnets set up allowing for him to thake the shield dome (or comm array) or the missile launcher or icarus array.
as the gun mount/missle launcher is on one mount, and the other two are on another mount... so yeaaah. magnetizing is easy (to a degree where I suspect the designer intended to make it easy)
Can I check something from you all? I think I need the Imperial Fists book but am not certain. Black Templars are an Imperial Fists successor, so I assume they get the Imperial Fists super-doctrine, access to relics, etc?
There is no special exclusion for Black Templars, is there?
Maybe that will change if Black templars get their rumoured box set release, but for now, is that right?
Fifty wrote: Can I check something from you all? I think I need the Imperial Fists book but am not certain. Black Templars are an Imperial Fists successor, so I assume they get the Imperial Fists super-doctrine, access to relics, etc?
There is no special exclusion for Black Templars, is there?
Maybe that will change if Black templars get their rumoured box set release, but for now, is that right?
yeah technicaly Black Templars are an Imperial fists sucessor chapter and could be treated accordingly. the book doesn't say anything about an exception for them.
It's not something I'd count on remaining PA2 is supposed to be oht sometime soon and rumor has it it'll have the black templars stuff. I'd also not be suprised to see GWFAQ that out (especially as if they don't and later give black templars a super doctrine, expect every TFG in the world to be running black templar armies with the IF AND BT Super doctrines arguing the rules imply they can)
I apologize if someone already pointed this out but...
I think I found a way to "break" the Salamander's self sacrifice stratagem. You take a Salamander Captain in gravis. Give him the Forge Master Warlord trait, The Salamander's Mantle relic, and either MoH or the new drakeskin power. You then put him in front of your infantry.
Being T8 with -1 to wound from the relic he is immune to small arms fire and so is any salamanders infantry behind him within 6'. He can probably tank some big shots as well. Mortal wounds would be a problem though.
Breaking it is easier than that. Put some Scouts out of LoS closer to the enemy than the character. Nothing can shoot the char cause not the closest model and then nothing can shoot anything within 6” behind the char due to the strat.
bort wrote: Breaking it is easier than that. Put some Scouts out of LoS closer to the enemy than the character. Nothing can shoot the char cause not the closest model and then nothing can shoot anything within 6” behind the char due to the strat.
That would work if your opponent doesn't have any weapons that ignore line of sight. GW is probably going to have to errata that strat to say "non character infantry".
Speaking of Salamanders, Flamestorm Gauntlets (melee) are Flame weapons. Whcih means you get +1 to wound with tactical doctrine and Vulkan gives you Guilliman rerolls on the fight phase
Rakdarian wrote: Speaking of Salamanders, Flamestorm Gauntlets (melee) are Flame weapons. Whcih means you get +1 to wound with tactical doctrine and Vulkan gives you Guilliman rerolls on the fight phase
Good catch! This is easily the second Codex: Aggressors after Ultramarines.
bort wrote: They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.
I don't think that was ever brought up to be fair.
they eistablished that for purposes of masterwork weapons the melee part is seperate from the ranged part, I tend to assume the RAI is that things that effect flame and bolt weapons won't impact the power fist part of it too.
bort wrote: They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.
I don't think that was ever brought up to be fair.
they eistablished that for purposes of masterwork weapons the melee part is seperate from the ranged part, I tend to assume the RAI is that things that effect flame and bolt weapons won't impact the power fist part of it too.
Read: I dont like this rule so im going to ignore it because its convient. feth the rules i wanna play Calvinball
bort wrote: They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.
I don't think that was ever brought up to be fair.
they eistablished that for purposes of masterwork weapons the melee part is seperate from the ranged part, I tend to assume the RAI is that things that effect flame and bolt weapons won't impact the power fist part of it too.
The FAQ on this has nothing to do with bolter fusillades. It still works for the melee part of boltstorm gauntlets.
bort wrote: They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.
I don't think that was ever brought up to be fair.
they eistablished that for purposes of masterwork weapons the melee part is seperate from the ranged part, I tend to assume the RAI is that things that effect flame and bolt weapons won't impact the power fist part of it too.
Read: I dont like this rule so im going to ignore it because its convient. feth the rules i wanna play Calvinball
RAI literally doesnt matter
You're right in that you can't impose a different interpretation of a rule on your opponent just because you think it should mean something different, but it matters as an indicator of what is likely to be changed in an FAQ.
I would actually argue that the RAW/RAI discussions actually matter now more than in any previous edition. With GW frequently addressing mistakes and misinterpreted rules in their FAQs, talking about the differences between the likely intention of a rule and its actual effect serves a real purpose, and can help us to anticipate what might get changed. I'm not going to build an army based on a nonsensical RAW interaction when it's likely to get picked up and changed within 6 months. GW has explicitly stated that, on a number of occasions, they have made changes because the original wording didn't reflect their intentions.
So yes, RAI does matter. Don't force your opponent to play by your own interpretation of the rules, but be aware that if a rule doesn't make sense, there's a good chance it will change soon.
I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?
Gree wrote: I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?
Yes. The flat three damage is massive. Even with the absurd point difference between a power fist and thunder hammer people will still pay that premium price to get the flat 3. If you are going all in on a one trick pony you have to make sure it's a darn good pony.
Gree wrote: I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?
Yes. The flat three damage is massive. Even with the absurd point difference between a power fist and thunder hammer people will still pay that premium price to get the flat 3. If you are going all in on a one trick pony you have to make sure it's a darn good pony.
Not really. The Fist of Terra doesn't impose WS penalty and gives one extra attack. The end result is pretty comparable amount of damage being dealt. It is really about whether you rather spend the points or the CP. Of course you can do both and have a master-crafted Thunder Hammer.
So yes, RAI does matter. Don't force your opponent to play by your own interpretation of the rules, but be aware that if a rule doesn't make sense, there's a good chance it will change soon.
Because Assault weapons have been FAQd at this point. Along with smoke launchers, how "End the attack sequence" works, what actually counts for rule of 3, whether or not canon successors interact with the codex, and many many more.
Gree wrote: I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?
Yes. The flat three damage is massive. Even with the absurd point difference between a power fist and thunder hammer people will still pay that premium price to get the flat 3. If you are going all in on a one trick pony you have to make sure it's a darn good pony.
Not really. The Fist of Terra doesn't impose WS penalty and gives one extra attack. The end result is pretty comparable amount of damage being dealt. It is really about whether you rather spend the points or the CP. Of course you can do both and have a master-crafted Thunder Hammer.
I suppose I should clarify that Knights or Super-heavies aren't really a thing in my local meta, so I usually don't face them. I'm not sure if that would matter in a comparison between the two.
I must admit I do find the -1 penalty to be annoying, even with the Captain buffs.
Gree wrote: I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?
Yes. The flat three damage is massive. Even with the absurd point difference between a power fist and thunder hammer people will still pay that premium price to get the flat 3. If you are going all in on a one trick pony you have to make sure it's a darn good pony.
Not really. The Fist of Terra doesn't impose WS penalty and gives one extra attack. The end result is pretty comparable amount of damage being dealt. It is really about whether you rather spend the points or the CP. Of course you can do both and have a master-crafted Thunder Hammer.
The extra attack doesn't outweigh the constant D3. The jump in damage is VERY high because of the variable from the DD3 missing. Yes on average both would kill a W4 model at the same rate, but the deviation is significantly less once you removed the extra dice roll.
I suppose I should clarify that Knights or Super-heavies aren't really a thing in my local meta, so I usually don't face them. I'm not sure if that would matter in a comparison between the two.
I must admit I do find the -1 penalty to be annoying, even with the Captain buffs.
The (non MC) hammer is only better versus multiwound things when under the Chapter Master buff. And even then the difference isn't massive. Otherwise the Fist of Terra will equal it. Except of course the fist will be better at killing infantry, as you have more attacks and hit more often.
The extra attack doesn't outweigh the constant D3. The jump in damage is VERY high because of the variable from the DD3 missing. Yes on average both would kill a W4 model at the same rate, but the deviation is significantly less once you removed the extra dice roll.
It is not just an extra attack, it is the lack of hit penalty as well. The Fist of Terra will hit much more reliably. The randomness just is in the different place.
The -1 to hit isn't that bad though, and the extra attack from the fist is kinda canceled out by Shock Assault being a thing.
Of course someone would need to run the numbers, but the Thunder Hammer jumping up above the average damage consistently compared to a Power Fist is something to keep in mind.
Guys, I'll have a 2 000pts game during the weekend of the 10th of November against a sautekh dynasty necron army.
His ability Lord of the Storm doesn't need line of sight, does it ?
So this is the list I intend to play, I think it's quite straightforward:
**Thunder Knights**: Hungry for Battle, Master Artisans, Ultramarines, Ultramarines Successor
+ HQ +
Chaplain [5 PL, 90pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, Jump Pack, Litany of Hate
Chapter Master [6 PL, -3CP, 98pts]: Adept of the Codex, Chainsword, Champion of Humanity, Jump Pack, Plasma pistol, Stratagem: Chapter Master, Stratagem: Exemplar of the Chapter, Teeth of Terra, Warlord
Librarian in Terminator Armor [6 PL, 110pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 3) Null Zone, Force stave, Reliquary of Vengeance, Storm bolter
Lieutenants [5 PL, -1CP, 62pts] . Lieutenant: Master of Strategy, Storm bolter, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
Tactical Squad [4 PL, 82pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Tactical Squad [4 PL, 82pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Tactical Squad [4 PL, 82pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
+ Elites +
Company Ancient [4 PL, 65pts]: Seal of Oath, Storm bolter
Company Veterans [8 PL, 75pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Sternguard Veteran Squad [12 PL, 150pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter, Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant . . Special Issue Boltgun/Bolt Pistol
Devastator Squad [6 PL, 161pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp
I am particularly happy with the footslogging Ultramarines sternguards to be honest. Will be first time trying a stalker but seems GREAT on paper and my opponent loves his destroyers Do you see any blatant flaw in this list ? I haven't faced necrons in about a year. Focus the units, destroy the destroyers quickly and what else ?
Yeah it really is. The storm ability is one of the main reasons to run him. You basically start the game off super smiting a unit, then on a 6 for every unit surrounding it within 6", gets mini smote.
In my last 3 games I have done 7, 9, and 10 mortals in the first turn. Those are just the ones I can think back on BTW, and have never had a game where it didn't pay off.
Also, watch out when you tying to knock out any vehicles he has that have quantum shielding rules, as the Grav Cannons might not be the best vehicle hunters of the Necron vehicles anyway, as apart from the Monolith/Obelisk/Tessaract Vault they have 4+ saves.
If he runs a lot of Destroyers then grav Cannons will do a lot of work however. Also, confirm with him at the beginning of the game if any tomb blades he has have shield vanes, which give them 3+ saves, also a target for grav Cannons as tomb blades will be up in your face quickly hitting you with 4 S5 -2AP D1 shots from each bike.
Swap out Null Zone on the librarian for might of heroes. Necrons don't depend on invulnerable as they have reanimation protocols. Might of Heroes will give you an extra attack with your teeth of tetra and be harder to hurt back.
I was just thinking about this when I was watching a batrep.
So you know how technically whenever a units shoots each individual shot is supposed to be resolved one at a time but we just roll everything at once because it would be awful to do the whole "to hit, to wound, save, damage" roll a bunch of times? If a squad of of whatever, lets say guardsmen, shoot at a squad of marines under a banner, would it be best to have each shot resolved per model? My thinking is that one or two guardsman early in the shooting could kill a marine, and before their buddies get to continue shooting, that marine could attempt to have the banner go off, allowing him to shoot back at the guardsmen and deny them shots. Unless of course I misinterpreting rules. Of course I wouldn't advocate doing this unless in an explicitly competitive environment.
What am I missing about Stalkers and Hunters? I've started seeing them in lists more and more since the new codex, and they don't seem to really have a role that cheaper units can't do more effectively. Is it the cheap T8 platform? Or is it their consistency against flyers?
You called it: cheap T8 vehicle used mainly for board control. Hunters more than Stalkers because they're cheaper.
If you happen to come up against flyers, you can take the shots. If not, you can use them to block and tag things and claim objectives. You don't really care if anything tags them because it was only one shot that might not have a target anyway.
Robtype0 wrote: What am I missing about Stalkers and Hunters? I've started seeing them in lists more and more since the new codex, and they don't seem to really have a role that cheaper units can't do more effectively. Is it the cheap T8 platform? Or is it their consistency against flyers?
They are dirt cheap now is the reason. 75pts for a T8 vehicle with a improved lascannon is pretty good.
I tried them recently with rhinos as stand-ins. They did okay, nothing to write home about.
1. @ GreatGranpapy : All shooting happens at once when it comes to squad shooting so even if you roll and kill a guardsman under your idea the guardsman already shot so still gets to roll. So that wouldn't work.
2. @ Robtype0 : They are actually really good. T8 makes them survive a lot more than t7 does. The hunter is a terrific las cannon platform, it gets to reroll itself and has nice range for 75 pts, it's a steal of a unit. Stalkers also put out a lot of shots for their cost and now that devistator doctrines are what they are they are even better. An imperial fist stalker puts out 6 str 7 ap-2 3dmg flat shots hitting on 2's vs anything that flies. A lot of flyers are t6 so this is quite strong for 95 pts considering that there are a ton of things out there that fly. Any eldar vehicle, most tau vehicles, most necron vehicles, even imperial armies have a few go to flyers. Add in full rerolls from a chapter master now and how powerful iron hand fliers are I can see these things getting a lot of use.
Robtype0 wrote: What am I missing about Stalkers and Hunters? I've started seeing them in lists more and more since the new codex, and they don't seem to really have a role that cheaper units can't do more effectively. Is it the cheap T8 platform? Or is it their consistency against flyers?
They are dirt cheap now is the reason. 75pts for a T8 vehicle with a improved lascannon is pretty good.
I tried them recently with rhinos as stand-ins. They did okay, nothing to write home about.
That's about my experience. However, said improved Lascannon is pretty independent, which is nice. Throw on a HK and you're really set to sit there and take potshots at stuff.
Thanks guys, this gives some perspective. I still think 75pts is pricey for a lascannon, albeit a very accurate one, but the utility of the chassis' sheer toughness (and effective mobility as Iron Hands) could certainly give it a role.
So, once again: what do you think of heavy plasma Hellblasters with IF superdoctrine. Do they look relatively competitive now?
For around the same price, they are significantly better than Lascannon Devastators with twice the wounds.
I know they are not 5 heavy bolters, which is the only thing that should be fielded as IF but they can benefit greatly from 2+ to hit with reroll 1s and Tank Hunters.
Their bane is invulnerable saves (there is always null zone) and they will be less useful once (if) you go to Tactical doctrine. Plus they won't be very good against monsters.
But, it's always nice to find some use for rare units.
DanielFM wrote: So, once again: what do you think of heavy plasma Hellblasters with IF superdoctrine. Do they look relatively competitive now?
For around the same price, they are significantly better than Lascannon Devastators with twice the wounds.
I know they are not 5 heavy bolters, which is the only thing that should be fielded as IF but they can benefit greatly from 2+ to hit with reroll 1s and Tank Hunters.
Their bane is invulnerable saves (there is always null zone) and they will be less useful once (if) you go to Tactical doctrine. Plus they won't be very good against monsters.
But, it's always nice to find some use for rare units.
DanielFM wrote: So, once again: what do you think of heavy plasma Hellblasters with IF superdoctrine. Do they look relatively competitive now?
For around the same price, they are significantly better than Lascannon Devastators with twice the wounds.
I know they are not 5 heavy bolters, which is the only thing that should be fielded as IF but they can benefit greatly from 2+ to hit with reroll 1s and Tank Hunters.
Their bane is invulnerable saves (there is always null zone) and they will be less useful once (if) you go to Tactical doctrine. Plus they won't be very good against monsters.
But, it's always nice to find some use for rare units.
Why take them over suppressors?
AP -5? Pretty much garbage. IMO the heavy should be d3 shots...like...a plasma cannon.
DanielFM wrote: So, once again: what do you think of heavy plasma Hellblasters with IF superdoctrine. Do they look relatively competitive now?
For around the same price, they are significantly better than Lascannon Devastators with twice the wounds.
I know they are not 5 heavy bolters, which is the only thing that should be fielded as IF but they can benefit greatly from 2+ to hit with reroll 1s and Tank Hunters.
Their bane is invulnerable saves (there is always null zone) and they will be less useful once (if) you go to Tactical doctrine. Plus they won't be very good against monsters.
But, it's always nice to find some use for rare units.
Why take them over suppressors?
Personal taste? I hate the Suppressor model and concept. They get mobility they will hardly ever use if they want to remain functional.
Plus, they benefit less from buffs (several smaller squads instead of big one).
Surprisingly, they do exactly the same damage against T8 3+ save no invul, with no external buffs. Against t7 and less Suppressors come ahead. Against T8 2+, Hellblasters are better.
As I said, just new tools, not necessarily better. Plus, they feel way more IF-y than stealthy firefighters with jetpacks
Should they be 1d3 shots? For sure. They are what they are, there is very little we can do now about it.
I get hating Suppressors, and I hate them for the same reason I hate Eliminators: garbage excuse of a box creating a "full" unit. None of the other Primaris units suffer this.
Heavy incinerators remain total trash, even for Imperial Fists. Imperial Fists can take some kind of gun that is not trash instead if they want.
Suppressors have more range and don't explode. They're also significantly cheaper per model and have twice as many shots if you're firing at smaller targets. They seem reasonably good.
Stalkers might be better than either, especially for Fists. All those shots buffed by the skyfire stratagem look like really good news. The main thing stopping me from getting one is that storm hawks probably do the job better than any of these. The stalker works much better as an objective holder though.
I was looking at using my Leviathan for my Crimson Fists. It does seem like a pretty awesome unit, especially as a target for the Tank Hunters stratagem. But I have to consider whether it's actually better than three stalkers, which are cheaper than it is. They have so much more range.
Mandragola wrote: Heavy incinerators remain total trash, even for Imperial Fists. Imperial Fists can take some kind of gun that is not trash instead if they want.
Suppressors have more range and don't explode. They're also significantly cheaper per model and have twice as many shots if you're firing at smaller targets. They seem reasonably good.
Stalkers might be better than either, especially for Fists. All those shots buffed by the skyfire stratagem look like really good news. The main thing stopping me from getting one is that storm hawks probably do the job better than any of these. The stalker works much better as an objective holder though.
I was looking at using my Leviathan for my Crimson Fists. It does seem like a pretty awesome unit, especially as a target for the Tank Hunters stratagem. But I have to consider whether it's actually better than three stalkers, which are cheaper than it is. They have so much more range.
I see people around here only favour units that are strictly better for the role with no thought about the rest. Maybe my place is in a more narrative oriented forum -_-
It's funny how I can show you with numbers an equivalent points value of Suppressors and Heavy Hellblasters can do the same damage to a certain (real, a Repulsor) vehicle profile, yet one is absolutely trash and the other get talked as reasonably good.
It's ok that you suggest Stalkers and Leviathans as substitutes. Everybody knows they are good and spam them in competitive lists.
I will give an opportunity to the Heavy Hellblasters and let you know (I don't know why, it sounds like I preach to a wall).
They fit a place in my battleplan (long ranged anti-tank infantry) that would be taken otherwise by Devastators (I don't do stunties anymore), Suppressors (stupid design) or Eliminators (I already have them, but as character killers).
If I see they disappoint me, they will go back to normal Hellblasters, no damage done or money spent
Gree wrote: I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?
Yes. The flat three damage is massive. Even with the absurd point difference between a power fist and thunder hammer people will still pay that premium price to get the flat 3. If you are going all in on a one trick pony you have to make sure it's a darn good pony.
Flat 3 vs d3. Vs 2 wound models 33% of your wounds go wasted requiring 2 wounds past save to take. Vs 3 wounds 66% of your attacks takes at least 2 strikes past saves. Some of those 3.
And same for 4-6 wound models. Going from 2 strikes to potentially 4-6.
And while you can say averages out thing is you don't actually average out due to wound caps. vs 2 wound models rolling 3 damage doesnt' average rolling 1 wound. It's wasted(incidentally this is what I had been pointing out to another while talking about necron pylon vs doomsday ark. Average of 3 dda(about same price vs pylon) vs non-titanic T8 3+ is about same(slight advantage to dda's). But due to wound cap average damage output for dda is actually bigger and here most definitely good rolls don't average out bad rolls. When you do either 0, 7, 8, 9, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and so on wounds and wound cap is 12 all those 14+ turn into 12 lowering average a lot)).
Flat 3 is big. It's reason why helverins are so good. There's so many W3 models out there(especially with marine codex 2).
The Dd3 vs multi wound infantry is almost like giving extra saving throw to your enemy(last night vs dark angels my necron destroyers got rid of 3 eliminators needing _5_ past saves. That's the annoying part of Dd3. I roll 1, one more was needed to finish and rolling here 3 would be useless. Yes damage=4=average 2 but that was irrelevant. I actually averaged to 1 damage per wound...)
Now where the Dd3 doesn't matter that much is vs model with tons of wounds. Knights, tanks etc. Basically when you are rolling lots of dice anyway and wound cap isn't going to become issue. Those 3's don't go to wasted and lots of dice=average out.
So the fist is better vs big vehicles, flat is better if your main target is going to be stuff like primaris marines, aggressors, custodians, light vehicles with about 6 wounds(though these aren't best targets for smash captain to begin with) etc.
Mandragola wrote: Heavy incinerators remain total trash, even for Imperial Fists. Imperial Fists can take some kind of gun that is not trash instead if they want.
Suppressors have more range and don't explode. They're also significantly cheaper per model and have twice as many shots if you're firing at smaller targets. They seem reasonably good.
Stalkers might be better than either, especially for Fists. All those shots buffed by the skyfire stratagem look like really good news. The main thing stopping me from getting one is that storm hawks probably do the job better than any of these. The stalker works much better as an objective holder though.
I was looking at using my Leviathan for my Crimson Fists. It does seem like a pretty awesome unit, especially as a target for the Tank Hunters stratagem. But I have to consider whether it's actually better than three stalkers, which are cheaper than it is. They have so much more range.
I see people around here only favour units that are strictly better for the role with no thought about the rest. Maybe my place is in a more narrative oriented forum -_-
It's funny how I can show you with numbers an equivalent points value of Suppressors and Heavy Hellblasters can do the same damage to a certain (real, a Repulsor) vehicle profile, yet one is absolutely trash and the other get talked as reasonably good.
It's ok that you suggest Stalkers and Leviathans as substitutes. Everybody knows they are good and spam them in competitive lists.
I will give an opportunity to the Heavy Hellblasters and let you know (I don't know why, it sounds like I preach to a wall).
They fit a place in my battleplan (long ranged anti-tank infantry) that would be taken otherwise by Devastators (I don't do stunties anymore), Suppressors (stupid design) or Eliminators (I already have them, but as character killers).
If I see they disappoint me, they will go back to normal Hellblasters, no damage done or money spent
Couple of things, first off yes, dakka has a reputation for being a competitive forum and generally has competitive discussion, so if it’s not the best it usually is discussed as trash. Secondly the difference in a vacuum between suppressors and hellblasters, suppressors are far more versatile thanks to their native deepstrike and 12” movement. Counterintuitive design aside. Leviathans to the best of my knowledge are not spammed. Unless one in an uncommon iron hands list counts as spamming. And if so I guess those older space marines lists were spamming guilliman models. Next a lot of competitive philosophy revolves around mitigating risks. And hellblasters are risky. Risky isn’t necessarily a bad thing, if the reward is great enough. For example deepstriking chargers is incredibly risky however the benefits are huge, in that you probably murder the feth out whatever your target, disable shooting in the second but and make a gunline incredibly vulnerable and you make it incredibly awkward to actually kill those units. Huge risk, but huge payoff. Compare that to plasma where the risk is fairly significant, but the payoff isn’t nearly as good. On top of that the models are expensive. If they were the only option, or significantly cheaper, or even were significantly killier that would be a different story, but hellblasters as a whole are none ignored those things. They are expensive, slow, and pretty fragile on top of being risky. Next there’s the fact that for many of the rolls they perform they’re are better units. Manlets are cheaper, and have better weapons, Dreadnoughts are tougher and cheaper, and hit better with less risk, contemptors remain one of the best, most efficient ways to get long range anti tank. Centurions are excellent no matter what you point them at and if you really are married to the primaris ideal just run an executioner.
Hellblasters have been a noob trap dice they came out and have remained as such for the entire edition.
Those heavy Hellblasters end up being pretty worthless against everything that isn't a building or vehicle, and even when targeting those preferred units they still can't outdamage their cheaper, rapid fire counterpart except at max range. It's such a pity that this unit feels so bad on the table - those heavy incinerators are really cool models. They would have had a place if the heavy variant received the same adjustment to its stats as the bolt rifle variants had.
DanielFM wrote: So, once again: what do you think of heavy plasma Hellblasters with IF superdoctrine. Do they look relatively competitive now?
For around the same price, they are significantly better than Lascannon Devastators with twice the wounds.
I know they are not 5 heavy bolters, which is the only thing that should be fielded as IF but they can benefit greatly from 2+ to hit with reroll 1s and Tank Hunters.
Their bane is invulnerable saves (there is always null zone) and they will be less useful once (if) you go to Tactical doctrine. Plus they won't be very good against monsters.
But, it's always nice to find some use for rare units.
I would argue that lascannons and hellblasters are both overcosted compared with missile launchers right now.
If you want long-range antitank, krak missiles will give you the same punch as lascannon/heavy hellblaster against everything except wounding T8, which you can offset by using tankhunters. The AP difference is insignificant in most cases (-2 or -3 is enough to get the invulnerable save to kick in on a knight), and the damage is the same and benefits from the IF doctrine in the same way.
And then, if you're up against an army with no vehicles, you can shoot frag missiles instead.
A unit of devs with 4 missile launchers is more points efficient than the lascannons or the hellblasters.
Don't forget frag missile for mortals vs aircraft. I personally have preferred missiles to las cannons since the 1st codex came out and they were the same cost. I prefer versatility over dedication with my devistators. With all the recent changes they have just gotten better at their job. 4d6str 4 ap-1 d1 shots? Yeah that's not bad at dealing with infantry if you really need to.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The "versatility" is a false narrative. For the cost Frags are terrible and so are the Kraks. The actual offensive output is bad for either situation.
What long-range antitank that's available to all space marines is better than krak missiles? I'm genuinely interested in the reasoning behind your claim, and also your alternative.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The "versatility" is a false narrative. For the cost Frags are terrible and so are the Kraks. The actual offensive output is bad for either situation.
What long-range antitank that's available to all space marines is better than krak missiles? I'm genuinely interested in the reasoning behind your claim, and also your alternative.
the heavy laser destroyer maybe? I still think though that our best long-range antitank is the quad las contemptor dreadnought
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The "versatility" is a false narrative. For the cost Frags are terrible and so are the Kraks. The actual offensive output is bad for either situation.
What long-range antitank that's available to all space marines is better than krak missiles? I'm genuinely interested in the reasoning behind your claim, and also your alternative.
Because they're mathematically worse? Especially with Imperial Fists when you can get 2 Heavy Bolters for the same price?
Lascannons aren't amazing, but the S9 makes a big difference vs T8 targets, and eliminating saves from something that doesn't have an Invul is clutch. Otherwise we can take Autocannons equivalents.
Also the ML is only readily available on Infantry platforms basically, so keep in mind you can likely get a Grav Cannon instead.
What long-range antitank that's available to all space marines is better than krak missiles? I'm genuinely interested in the reasoning behind your claim, and also your alternative.
Quite literally all of them. Lascannons have the highly important S9, with AP4 in devastator. That's the gold standard of "traditional" AT there. Heavy bolters plinking at S5 AP2 D2 are going to dish out hurt, especially with wound reroll support. Ditto for plasma (though HPCs still suffer from RoF issues, and self-immolation). Grav cannons are wicked with the new strat, basically taking the aforementioned bonuses and cranking them up to fifteen on the obliterometer.
Take it from someone who regularly plays an army that can only utilize missiles, they're just not up to the job.
Saying that Imperial Fist Heavy Bolters are better anti-tank weapons is like saying that White Scars chainswords are better. It would be relavant if we were talking about what Imperial Fist weapons were the best for anti-tank.
The rest of the argument makes much more sense though.
bmsattler wrote: Saying that Imperial Fist Heavy Bolters are better anti-tank weapons is like saying that White Scars chainswords are better. It would be relavant if we were talking about what Imperial Fist weapons were the best for anti-tank.
The rest of the argument makes much more sense though.
For IF and CF I think their best anti tank options are rate of fire heavy weapons becuase they will perform well enough against vehicles and very well against infantry hordes. They can build pure ROF and come out effective against everything.
DanielFM wrote: So, once again: what do you think of heavy plasma Hellblasters with IF superdoctrine. Do they look relatively competitive now?
For around the same price, they are significantly better than Lascannon Devastators with twice the wounds.
I know they are not 5 heavy bolters, which is the only thing that should be fielded as IF but they can benefit greatly from 2+ to hit with reroll 1s and Tank Hunters.
Their bane is invulnerable saves (there is always null zone) and they will be less useful once (if) you go to Tactical doctrine. Plus they won't be very good against monsters.
But, it's always nice to find some use for rare units.
I would argue that lascannons and hellblasters are both overcosted compared with missile launchers right now.
If you want long-range antitank, krak missiles will give you the same punch as lascannon/heavy hellblaster against everything except wounding T8, which you can offset by using tankhunters. The AP difference is insignificant in most cases (-2 or -3 is enough to get the invulnerable save to kick in on a knight), and the damage is the same and benefits from the IF doctrine in the same way.
And then, if you're up against an army with no vehicles, you can shoot frag missiles instead.
A unit of devs with 4 missile launchers is more points efficient than the lascannons or the hellblasters.
No, you can't offset it with tank hunters. Missiles go to 3+ to wound, HPI/lascannon goes to 2+. They will always be better against heavy vehicles.
So is everyone just waiting to see what happens with salamanders until after the inevitable FAQ?
I'd love to get them working competitively (and by them I mean mono salamanders with 18 or so cents + aggressors combined) but I'm totally fine having a cent squad (and therefore a battalion) be white scars or raven guard. Can we still get there if self sacrifice can't target a character? Assuming that and not benefiting non-salamanders would be the only change at this point because that makes sense.
Mandragola wrote: Heavy incinerators remain total trash, even for Imperial Fists. Imperial Fists can take some kind of gun that is not trash instead if they want.
Suppressors have more range and don't explode. They're also significantly cheaper per model and have twice as many shots if you're firing at smaller targets. They seem reasonably good.
Stalkers might be better than either, especially for Fists. All those shots buffed by the skyfire stratagem look like really good news. The main thing stopping me from getting one is that storm hawks probably do the job better than any of these. The stalker works much better as an objective holder though.
I was looking at using my Leviathan for my Crimson Fists. It does seem like a pretty awesome unit, especially as a target for the Tank Hunters stratagem. But I have to consider whether it's actually better than three stalkers, which are cheaper than it is. They have so much more range.
I see people around here only favour units that are strictly better for the role with no thought about the rest. Maybe my place is in a more narrative oriented forum -_-
It's funny how I can show you with numbers an equivalent points value of Suppressors and Heavy Hellblasters can do the same damage to a certain (real, a Repulsor) vehicle profile, yet one is absolutely trash and the other get talked as reasonably good.
It's ok that you suggest Stalkers and Leviathans as substitutes. Everybody knows they are good and spam them in competitive lists.
I will give an opportunity to the Heavy Hellblasters and let you know (I don't know why, it sounds like I preach to a wall).
They fit a place in my battleplan (long ranged anti-tank infantry) that would be taken otherwise by Devastators (I don't do stunties anymore), Suppressors (stupid design) or Eliminators (I already have them, but as character killers).
If I see they disappoint me, they will go back to normal Hellblasters, no damage done or money spent
If you don’t lose any money, go ahead and test them. That’s fine.
Sorry if I come across badly. There are lots of units out there that don’t work. I don’t want to se GW rewarded for bad rules writing by you buying one of those units, then having to buy something else that isn’t awful.
To be clear though, they’re truly terrible. You’ve pointed out that they beat suppressors against T8 with no invulnerable save. Fair enough. Suppressors beat heavy hellblasters in literally all other situations. They’re also cheaper, faster, fly, and never blow themselves up. And suppressors aren’t even all that great.
Ok, just to bring some more value into my Heavy Hellblasters-as-antitank argument, I ran a spreadsheet with the most equivalent infantry anti-tank options with IF bennefits and no external buffs nor stratagems.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10dFE2XmjL1l6Zk1Xd_hCwlfy2tpdWUhPtHS5H1Mf1V0/edit?usp=sharing In orange you can see the winner/ties for each vehicle stat category.
Main conclussions:
-Plasma Cannon Devastators sure pull their own weight while being the second cheapest option in this comparison. IF super doctrine does a lot for them.
-Plasma Inceptors are their equal, with the added bonus of not losing damage outside Devastator Doctrine (do also note that advantage for regular Hellblasters).
-The ever-so-praised Suppressors only win against T7 with 5+ or 4+ invulnerable saves.
-Heavy Bolter Centurions are great against T8 5++ or 4++. The same happens with Grav Centurions and T8 3+ or 2+ with no invulnerable. They are the most expensive by a hefty 30+ points, though
I didn't account for range (Plasma Inceptors are short ranged but come from Deepstrike, Grav Cannons are short ranged but would also have the Hurricane Bolters which I didn't bother to get into the calculations ) nor overheating (in a single shooting phase, overheating has no effect on damage output). Several considerations must be taken into account, as accesibility of overheating mitigation, number of models to control backline objectives, effectivity of stratagem use (Suppressors lose here by being 2 different units, Grav Centurions get their own stratagem at the cost of 1 additional point).
I know all of this is pretty moot, as people will tell me Leviathans/Relic Contemptors/Stalkers are way better. But 1) those can't do their job while contributing to hold objectives 2) I'm fed up of FW units throwing actual 40k units off balance by making them look worse (if I had my way they would be forbidden or heavily limited -as already heppens in some Spanish tournaments) and 3) people wanting a bit of variety can check the numbers and make an informed decision about how much are they shooting themselves in the foot by taking their prefered unit.
btw is there any unit there that could seriously suffer from overkilling target? This is something I have been today number crunching with necrons when I wanted to determine just how good(or bad) necron pylon main gun is compared to dooms day arks. Simple formula(number of shots x odds of hitting x odds of wounding x odds of getting past saves x average damage) gave fairly similar results but due to overkill that's actually misleading. Factoring overkill for example pylon does about 19.36 vs baneblade while doomsday ark does 5.52. Simple formula says tad under 32 and 5.55
Incidentally vs leman russ doomsday ark averages 5.15...Odds of hitting and wounding are identical but average drops about 0.4 wound per doomsday round per round of shooting just because dda has not that insignificant chance of causing more than 12 wounds in one go. Pylon doesn't cause even double the dda vs leman russ in average...
I could see some bigger plasma squads etc actually having that to worry about dropping their real average a bit.
DanielFM wrote: Ok, just to bring some more value into my Heavy Hellblasters-as-antitank argument, I ran a spreadsheet with the most equivalent infantry anti-tank options with IF bennefits and no external buffs nor stratagems.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10dFE2XmjL1l6Zk1Xd_hCwlfy2tpdWUhPtHS5H1Mf1V0/edit?usp=sharing In orange you can see the winner/ties for each vehicle stat category.
Main conclussions:
-Plasma Cannon Devastators sure pull their own weight while being the second cheapest option in this comparison. IF super doctrine does a lot for them.
-Plasma Inceptors are their equal, with the added bonus of not losing damage outside Devastator Doctrine (do also note that advantage for regular Hellblasters).
-The ever-so-praised Suppressors only win against T7 with 5+ or 4+ invulnerable saves.
-Heavy Bolter Centurions are great against T8 5++ or 4++. The same happens with Grav Centurions and T8 3+ or 2+ with no invulnerable. They are the most expensive by a hefty 30+ points, though
I didn't account for range (Plasma Inceptors are short ranged but come from Deepstrike, Grav Cannons are short ranged but would also have the Hurricane Bolters which I didn't bother to get into the calculations ) nor overheating (in a single shooting phase, overheating has no effect on damage output). Several considerations must be taken into account, as accesibility of overheating mitigation, number of models to control backline objectives, effectivity of stratagem use (Suppressors lose here by being 2 different units, Grav Centurions get their own stratagem at the cost of 1 additional point).
I know all of this is pretty moot, as people will tell me Leviathans/Relic Contemptors/Stalkers are way better. But 1) those can't do their job while contributing to hold objectives 2) I'm fed up of FW units throwing actual 40k units off balance by making them look worse (if I had my way they would be forbidden or heavily limited -as already heppens in some Spanish tournaments) and 3) people wanting a bit of variety can check the numbers and make an informed decision about how much are they shooting themselves in the foot by taking their prefered unit.
DanielFM wrote: Ok, just to bring some more value into my Heavy Hellblasters-as-antitank argument, I ran a spreadsheet with the most equivalent infantry anti-tank options with IF bennefits and no external buffs nor stratagems.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10dFE2XmjL1l6Zk1Xd_hCwlfy2tpdWUhPtHS5H1Mf1V0/edit?usp=sharing In orange you can see the winner/ties for each vehicle stat category.
Main conclussions:
-Plasma Cannon Devastators sure pull their own weight while being the second cheapest option in this comparison. IF super doctrine does a lot for them.
-Plasma Inceptors are their equal, with the added bonus of not losing damage outside Devastator Doctrine (do also note that advantage for regular Hellblasters).
-The ever-so-praised Suppressors only win against T7 with 5+ or 4+ invulnerable saves.
-Heavy Bolter Centurions are great against T8 5++ or 4++. The same happens with Grav Centurions and T8 3+ or 2+ with no invulnerable. They are the most expensive by a hefty 30+ points, though
I didn't account for range (Plasma Inceptors are short ranged but come from Deepstrike, Grav Cannons are short ranged but would also have the Hurricane Bolters which I didn't bother to get into the calculations ) nor overheating (in a single shooting phase, overheating has no effect on damage output). Several considerations must be taken into account, as accesibility of overheating mitigation, number of models to control backline objectives, effectivity of stratagem use (Suppressors lose here by being 2 different units, Grav Centurions get their own stratagem at the cost of 1 additional point).
I know all of this is pretty moot, as people will tell me Leviathans/Relic Contemptors/Stalkers are way better. But 1) those can't do their job while contributing to hold objectives 2) I'm fed up of FW units throwing actual 40k units off balance by making them look worse (if I had my way they would be forbidden or heavily limited -as already heppens in some Spanish tournaments) and 3) people wanting a bit of variety can check the numbers and make an informed decision about how much are they shooting themselves in the foot by taking their prefered unit.
But those can hold objectives just fine?
Against what, 1 model? You need the numbers to be reliable. Also, being able to go up in buildings in case they are hidden inside/up.
DanielFM wrote: Ok, just to bring some more value into my Heavy Hellblasters-as-antitank argument, I ran a spreadsheet with the most equivalent infantry anti-tank options with IF bennefits and no external buffs nor stratagems.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10dFE2XmjL1l6Zk1Xd_hCwlfy2tpdWUhPtHS5H1Mf1V0/edit?usp=sharing In orange you can see the winner/ties for each vehicle stat category.
Main conclussions:
-Plasma Cannon Devastators sure pull their own weight while being the second cheapest option in this comparison. IF super doctrine does a lot for them.
-Plasma Inceptors are their equal, with the added bonus of not losing damage outside Devastator Doctrine (do also note that advantage for regular Hellblasters).
-The ever-so-praised Suppressors only win against T7 with 5+ or 4+ invulnerable saves.
-Heavy Bolter Centurions are great against T8 5++ or 4++. The same happens with Grav Centurions and T8 3+ or 2+ with no invulnerable. They are the most expensive by a hefty 30+ points, though
I didn't account for range (Plasma Inceptors are short ranged but come from Deepstrike, Grav Cannons are short ranged but would also have the Hurricane Bolters which I didn't bother to get into the calculations ) nor overheating (in a single shooting phase, overheating has no effect on damage output). Several considerations must be taken into account, as accesibility of overheating mitigation, number of models to control backline objectives, effectivity of stratagem use (Suppressors lose here by being 2 different units, Grav Centurions get their own stratagem at the cost of 1 additional point).
I know all of this is pretty moot, as people will tell me Leviathans/Relic Contemptors/Stalkers are way better. But 1) those can't do their job while contributing to hold objectives 2) I'm fed up of FW units throwing actual 40k units off balance by making them look worse (if I had my way they would be forbidden or heavily limited -as already heppens in some Spanish tournaments) and 3) people wanting a bit of variety can check the numbers and make an informed decision about how much are they shooting themselves in the foot by taking their prefered unit.
I don't think we've figured out what the best units are yet. There are a lot of factors at work here - many of them not revealed by maths.
I don't think Suppressors are a particularly awesome unit. They're ok. I think they make a good pick for a brigade where you want a cheap-ish fast attack unit that will accomplish something. They come out of this comparison poorly because you've got no targets <T7, so they're always wounding on at least a 4+. Even so they look ok I think. Relative to the others, it's notable that they're one of the cheapest models. They're quick and can deep strike if they want.
Ignoring overheating is not really reasonable in my opinion. It happens a lot, particularly to units like plasma inceptors. There are ways around it though, like if you're Crimson Fists and use the +1 to hit characters strat to target a knight. Failing that, they really want a captain nearby. Blowing up is a huge problem when targets have penalties to hit.
I did some sums of my own not long ago, looking at weapon options for Devastators. I went for a slightly more varied list of targets because I wanted to see how they'd do in less ideal scenarios. The plasma devastators came out pretty well in that situation too. Note I'm giving captain and lieutenant rerolls here. I think that's a reasonable assumption for these relatively static units.
I think the best weapons for Fists will be those that fire a decent number of shots with a decent chance to wound. Multi-shot plasma fits that description, but it's pretty rare. So Plasma devastators, as the only unit able to really spam heavy plasma cannons, come out looking very respectable. But so do most autocannon-type weapons. Things like heavy bolters and assault cannons are also good - their lower chance to wound and initial 1 damage being offset by having lots of shots and the IF super doctrine. They fall a bit flat against targets like riptides (and other monsters) which are tough but not vehicles.
I don't know if a Leviathan is a must take for Fists - probably not. But it has a very major virtue, shared with devastator centurions, which is that it's an awesome target for the Tank Hunters stratagem. Usually my instinct is to go for quite a bit of MSU fir my shooting units but the option to give those 20 storm cannon shots +1 to wound is hard to pass up - the thing (with captain and LT) averages 17 damage against a knight with rotated ion shields, or just kills it outright if it doesn't rotate.>
DanielFM wrote: Ok, just to bring some more value into my Heavy Hellblasters-as-antitank argument, I ran a spreadsheet with the most equivalent infantry anti-tank options with IF bennefits and no external buffs nor stratagems.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10dFE2XmjL1l6Zk1Xd_hCwlfy2tpdWUhPtHS5H1Mf1V0/edit?usp=sharing In orange you can see the winner/ties for each vehicle stat category.
Main conclussions:
-Plasma Cannon Devastators sure pull their own weight while being the second cheapest option in this comparison. IF super doctrine does a lot for them.
-Plasma Inceptors are their equal, with the added bonus of not losing damage outside Devastator Doctrine (do also note that advantage for regular Hellblasters).
-The ever-so-praised Suppressors only win against T7 with 5+ or 4+ invulnerable saves.
-Heavy Bolter Centurions are great against T8 5++ or 4++. The same happens with Grav Centurions and T8 3+ or 2+ with no invulnerable. They are the most expensive by a hefty 30+ points, though
I didn't account for range (Plasma Inceptors are short ranged but come from Deepstrike, Grav Cannons are short ranged but would also have the Hurricane Bolters which I didn't bother to get into the calculations ) nor overheating (in a single shooting phase, overheating has no effect on damage output). Several considerations must be taken into account, as accesibility of overheating mitigation, number of models to control backline objectives, effectivity of stratagem use (Suppressors lose here by being 2 different units, Grav Centurions get their own stratagem at the cost of 1 additional point).
I know all of this is pretty moot, as people will tell me Leviathans/Relic Contemptors/Stalkers are way better. But 1) those can't do their job while contributing to hold objectives 2) I'm fed up of FW units throwing actual 40k units off balance by making them look worse (if I had my way they would be forbidden or heavily limited -as already heppens in some Spanish tournaments) and 3) people wanting a bit of variety can check the numbers and make an informed decision about how much are they shooting themselves in the foot by taking their prefered unit.
I don't think we've figured out what the best units are yet. There are a lot of factors at work here - many of them not revealed by maths.
I don't think Suppressors are a particularly awesome unit. They're ok. I think they make a good pick for a brigade where you want a cheap-ish fast attack unit that will accomplish something. They come out of this comparison poorly because you've got no targets <T7, so they're always wounding on at least a 4+. Even so they look ok I think. Relative to the others, it's notable that they're one of the cheapest models. They're quick and can deep strike if they want.
Ignoring overheating is not really reasonable in my opinion. It happens a lot, particularly to units like plasma inceptors. There are ways around it though, like if you're Crimson Fists and use the +1 to hit characters strat to target a knight. Failing that, they really want a captain nearby. Blowing up is a huge problem when targets have penalties to hit.
I did some sums of my own not long ago, looking at weapon options for Devastators. I went for a slightly more varied list of targets because I wanted to see how they'd do in less ideal scenarios. The plasma devastators came out pretty well in that situation too. Note I'm giving captain and lieutenant rerolls here. I think that's a reasonable assumption for these relatively static units.
I think the best weapons for Fists will be those that fire a decent number of shots with a decent chance to wound. Multi-shot plasma fits that description, but it's pretty rare. So Plasma devastators, as the only unit able to really spam heavy plasma cannons, come out looking very respectable. But so do most autocannon-type weapons. Things like heavy bolters and assault cannons are also good - their lower chance to wound and initial 1 damage being offset by having lots of shots and the IF super doctrine. They fall a bit flat against targets like riptides (and other monsters) which are tough but not vehicles.
I don't know if a Leviathan is a must take for Fists - probably not. But it has a very major virtue, shared with devastator centurions, which is that it's an awesome target for the Tank Hunters stratagem. Usually my instinct is to go for quite a bit of MSU fir my shooting units but the option to give those 20 storm cannon shots +1 to wound is hard to pass up - the thing (with captain and LT) averages 17 damage against a knight with rotated ion shields, or just kills it outright if it doesn't rotate.>
Why the deredeo off all the options? As far as choices go that seems really
Odd.
It does, I agree. This came out of a discussion over on B+C about which gun was more effective for devastators. I put the Deredeo in sort of as a control to look at whether devastators compared well to other stuff generally.
For what it's worth I think Fist Deredeos are pretty good. I had a theory that they'd achieve consistent damage against a lot of targets, and they do. In this comparison I've left the missiles off the roof because I think they're overcosted and you're likely to take the shield instead.
The Hellfire Palsma Carronade is probably worth considering too, which I didn't. 24" range is a major problem compared to the autocannons though, and the AP isn't necessarily all that relevant with so many invulnerables around. Overall I think the autocannons are still the best choice.
Ironically, I think IFs needs a unit that works well against monsters in case there is no vehicles, and there the Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors could find their role.
Because with pure high ROF low strength weapons you will accomplish little in that scenario.
Thus, I think it's wise to leave some points for a dedicated monster killer who can also help with anti-tank (even if suboptimally).
I may rerun the numbers later without the +1 to damage, and maybe add the usual captain+lieutenant/Hypnoth buffs for more realistic numbers (and to add the overheating protection).
Thank you, DanielFM, for the spreadsheet. Ironically, I think the numbers, for me, actually reinforce my commitment to krak missiles.
Kraks are middle-of-the-road against everything. They don't suffer from the randomness or overheats of plasma, or the efficiency waste of lascannons when there are no hard targets. In a world of repulsors, I don't consider 24" grav cannons to be long range.
I should mention, though, that I'm playing Raven Guard, so infantry-based weapons that stand off at range are more survivable for me than vehicle based (although typhoons are a bit of a bargain) or one-shot 24" range weapons.
It's beyond my math skill, but I'd be interested to see the point cost-per-damage spreadsheet, with the plasma weapons including the cost of the captain/chapter master who is required to make them work safely throughout a game. Or alternately, the points cost-per-damage over the course of a 6-turn game, with unsupported plasmas dropping out at expected rates.
No argument, though, that twin lascannons--at the same cost as missiles--are clearly a long-range antitank bargain.
It's beyond my math skill, but I'd be interested to see the point cost-per-damage spreadsheet, with the plasma weapons including the cost of the captain/chapter master who is required to make them work safely throughout a game. Or alternately, the points cost-per-damage over the course of a 6-turn game, with unsupported plasmas dropping out at expected rates.
Nope, sorry. I can't agree here.
You are taking the Captain for everyone, as everyone benefits from one. If I include, I include it for everyone. Yes, plasma benefit more from the rerolls (avoidance of overheat) but they are not paying more points for it because of that.
The chance of overheating with reroll ones is 0.028 per shot. Each model must shoot 36 times before it's expected to die from it (on average). With a -1 to hit, its 5 times. But with a chapter master, it's 9.
I think that's visual enough.
Well I like plasma cannons, and I've used them in RG to pop up and shoot. I like the lower cost overall. But their shorter range and the way that people have bad 5th edition memories of them means they never get off more than a couple of shots before they either toast themselves or get overrun.
Anecdotally, it always seems that I have at least three or four devs with missile launchers sitting in a ruin somewhere still thumping away in turn six.
Anecdotally, it always seems that I have at least three or four devs with missile launchers sitting in a ruin somewhere still thumping away in turn six.
If an opponent leaves a devastator team alone for six turns, theyve got bigger issues than mathematical heavy weapons arguments.
DanielFM wrote: Ironically, I think IFs needs a unit that works well against monsters in case there is no vehicles, and there the Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors could find their role.
Because with pure high ROF low strength weapons you will accomplish little in that scenario.
Thus, I think it's wise to leave some points for a dedicated monster killer who can also help with anti-tank (even if suboptimally).
I may rerun the numbers later without the +1 to damage, and maybe add the usual captain+lieutenant/Hypnoth buffs for more realistic numbers (and to add the overheating protection).
Heavy bolters work just fine against monsters. Assault cannons too. The majority of monsters are daemons/hive tyrants too and those have a prevalence to have 4++ saves - making the HB better for killing it anyways. Plasma cannons are garbage because -1 to hit exist. You should include 0 in your army that aren't part of a suicide unit. The only common place monster you might run into with an invo save is a carnifex...They only have 8 wounds anyways.
Anecdotally, it always seems that I have at least three or four devs with missile launchers sitting in a ruin somewhere still thumping away in turn six.
If an opponent leaves a devastator team alone for six turns, theyve got bigger issues than mathematical heavy weapons arguments.
In the case of Raven Guard, the bigger issue that causes my opponent not to shoot at devastators is created by me (if I'm using my army right) with deepstriking, flying, infiltrating and tricksy harassment units up in his grill that he can't ignore.
Thus the need for reliable, cheap and consistent backfield firepower that's not going to roast themselves.
Xenomancer, -1 to hit exist, but it's not everywhere (and it´s very likely to become even more rare when all -1 to hit blanket rules get standarized with Raven Guard's one). It's mainly on flyers and infantry, and none of those are the objective of this unit (nor this analysis).
I will add high ROF units in my monster analysis later, to see if they are effective enough to make anti-monster not needed. I already included a good source of Heavy Bolter shots (HB Centurions) and they are not exactly stellar in the comparison. I didn't add the hurricane bolters, though. But I don't expect them to skyrocket their damage against high T monsters. Plus the range is short.
Edit: most important Monster armies are Daemons, Tyranids but also Tau. Don't forget about Riptides. T7 2+ 5++/3++. I must remember adding that profile to the calculations.
Xenomancer, -1 to hit exist, but it's not everywhere (and it´s very likely to become even more rare when all -1 to hit blanket rules get standarized with Raven Guard's one). It's mainly on flyers and infantry, and none of those are the objective of this unit (nor this analysis).
I will add high ROF units in my monster analysis later, to see if they are effective enough to make anti-monster not needed.
-1 to hit rules are explicitly not being standardized to Corax Pattern Shenanigans. Alaitoc already got its PA update, and is untouched.
Xenomancer, -1 to hit exist, but it's not everywhere (and it´s very likely to become even more rare when all -1 to hit blanket rules get standarized with Raven Guard's one). It's mainly on flyers and infantry, and none of those are the objective of this unit (nor this analysis).
I will add high ROF units in my monster analysis later, to see if they are effective enough to make anti-monster not needed.
-1 to hit rules are explicitly not being standardized to Corax Pattern Shenanigans. Alaitoc already got its PA update, and is untouched.
That's some serious bs by GW, then. One of the most broken mechanics in the game and they leave it untouched while toning it down for a single army. Great job guys.
Xenomancer, -1 to hit exist, but it's not everywhere (and it´s very likely to become even more rare when all -1 to hit blanket rules get standarized with Raven Guard's one). It's mainly on flyers and infantry, and none of those are the objective of this unit (nor this analysis).
I will add high ROF units in my monster analysis later, to see if they are effective enough to make anti-monster not needed.
-1 to hit rules are explicitly not being standardized to Corax Pattern Shenanigans. Alaitoc already got its PA update, and is untouched.
That's some serious bs by GW, then. One of the most broken mechanics in the game and they leave it untouched while toning it down for a single army. Great job guys.
All the base traits for eldar factions went untouched, they just got their own version of successor traits.
DanielFM wrote: Ironically, I think IFs needs a unit that works well against monsters in case there is no vehicles, and there the Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors could find their role.
Because with pure high ROF low strength weapons you will accomplish little in that scenario.
Thus, I think it's wise to leave some points for a dedicated monster killer who can also help with anti-tank (even if suboptimally).
I may rerun the numbers later without the +1 to damage, and maybe add the usual captain+lieutenant/Hypnoth buffs for more realistic numbers (and to add the overheating protection).
Heavy bolters work just fine against monsters. Assault cannons too. The majority of monsters are daemons/hive tyrants too and those have a prevalence to have 4++ saves - making the HB better for killing it anyways. Plasma cannons are garbage because -1 to hit exist. You should include 0 in your army that aren't part of a suicide unit. The only common place monster you might run into with an invo save is a carnifex...They only have 8 wounds anyways.
Without running a complete spreadsheet: you need 108 heavy bolter/assault cannon shots to kill a winged Hive Tyrant. You only need 27 plasma shots to do the same. Obviously, not a single source (neither the HB nor the plasma) will take it down on their own, at least soon enough. That's why you need both, the big guns take a good chunk and the HB-or-equivalent plink out the rest of the wounds.
I don't know how many Hive Tyrant grade monsters do you routinely kill with high ROF weapons alone, but at least in paper numbers are against it.
DanielFM wrote: Ironically, I think IFs needs a unit that works well against monsters in case there is no vehicles, and there the Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors could find their role.
Because with pure high ROF low strength weapons you will accomplish little in that scenario.
Thus, I think it's wise to leave some points for a dedicated monster killer who can also help with anti-tank (even if suboptimally).
I may rerun the numbers later without the +1 to damage, and maybe add the usual captain+lieutenant/Hypnoth buffs for more realistic numbers (and to add the overheating protection).
Heavy bolters work just fine against monsters. Assault cannons too. The majority of monsters are daemons/hive tyrants too and those have a prevalence to have 4++ saves - making the HB better for killing it anyways. Plasma cannons are garbage because -1 to hit exist. You should include 0 in your army that aren't part of a suicide unit. The only common place monster you might run into with an invo save is a carnifex...They only have 8 wounds anyways.
Without running a complete spreadsheet: you need 108 heavy bolter/assault cannon shots to kill a winged Hive Tyrant. You only need 27 plasma shots to do the same. Obviously, not a single source (neither the HB nor the plasma) will take it down on their own, at least soon enough. That's why you need both, the big guns take a good chunk and the HB-or-equivalent plink out the rest of the wounds.
I don't know how many Hive Tyrant grade monsters do you routinely kill with high ROF weapons alone, but at least in paper numbers are against it.
Aren't Tyrants T6? If so the Assault Cannon number should be slightly lower.
DanielFM wrote: Ironically, I think IFs needs a unit that works well against monsters in case there is no vehicles, and there the Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors could find their role.
Because with pure high ROF low strength weapons you will accomplish little in that scenario.
Thus, I think it's wise to leave some points for a dedicated monster killer who can also help with anti-tank (even if suboptimally).
I may rerun the numbers later without the +1 to damage, and maybe add the usual captain+lieutenant/Hypnoth buffs for more realistic numbers (and to add the overheating protection).
Heavy bolters work just fine against monsters. Assault cannons too. The majority of monsters are daemons/hive tyrants too and those have a prevalence to have 4++ saves - making the HB better for killing it anyways. Plasma cannons are garbage because -1 to hit exist. You should include 0 in your army that aren't part of a suicide unit. The only common place monster you might run into with an invo save is a carnifex...They only have 8 wounds anyways.
Without running a complete spreadsheet: you need 108 heavy bolter/assault cannon shots to kill a winged Hive Tyrant. You only need 27 plasma shots to do the same. Obviously, not a single source (neither the HB nor the plasma) will take it down on their own, at least soon enough. That's why you need both, the big guns take a good chunk and the HB-or-equivalent plink out the rest of the wounds.
I don't know how many Hive Tyrant grade monsters do you routinely kill with high ROF weapons alone, but at least in paper numbers are against it.
Aren't Tyrants T6? If so the Assault Cannon number should be slightly lower.
They are T7. The monsters that are t6 usually have character protection (demon princes), so heavy bolters/assault cannons are pretty crap against them.
That still isn't exactly a ton of shots to bring one down though. Most people are bringing TL Assault Cannons, not to mention all our Bolters will wound at the same rate under the Tactical Doctrine (or at the same rate for units already being brought like Intercessor variants).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That still isn't exactly a ton of shots to bring one down though. Most people are bringing TL Assault Cannons, not to mention all our Bolters will wound at the same rate under the Tactical Doctrine (or at the same rate for units already being brought like Intercessor variants).
It isn't efficient at all though. Plasma and other heavy weapons (squad of devs with grav-cannons using the strat for instance) will drop these targets much faster than heavy bolters and assault cannons will. Which is the point.
Anecdotally, it always seems that I have at least three or four devs with missile launchers sitting in a ruin somewhere still thumping away in turn six.
If an opponent leaves a devastator team alone for six turns, theyve got bigger issues than mathematical heavy weapons arguments.
Naw. An opponent swimming in infantry will just ignore a lascannon heavy version, for instance. What's it going to do? Zap a single 'stealer?
I will add high ROF units in my monster analysis later, to see if they are effective enough to make anti-monster not needed. I already included a good source of Heavy Bolter shots (HB Centurions) and they are not exactly stellar in the comparison. I didn't add the hurricane bolters, though. But I don't expect them to skyrocket their damage against high T monsters. Plus the range is short.
Very biased position on the range considering two of your weapons in this list have shorter range for the damage shown (regular Hellblasters and Inceptors) and one has the exact same range (Grav Devs).
Furthermore, Bolter Discipline applies all the time for units with the CENTURION keyword, so it's even smarter to consider it.
Smirrors wrote: I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?
I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.
I may be wrong but I believe the deredeo invul you have to be fully within 6" to get it so it probably wont be able to cover many planes.
That being said I'm really interested in them in IF. Making the autocannons dmg 3 is very nice and you can protect a key unit or 2 with the invul.
You know what fits in their aura fully? 3 Ven Gun Dreads. I did that and it was buckets of fun.
What load out on all the Dreads? I have 3 ven's and was thing of getting a deredeo
Anecdotally, it always seems that I have at least three or four devs with missile launchers sitting in a ruin somewhere still thumping away in turn six.
If an opponent leaves a devastator team alone for six turns, theyve got bigger issues than mathematical heavy weapons arguments.
Naw. An opponent swimming in infantry will just ignore a lascannon heavy version, for instance. What's it going to do? Zap a single 'stealer?
I will add high ROF units in my monster analysis later, to see if they are effective enough to make anti-monster not needed. I already included a good source of Heavy Bolter shots (HB Centurions) and they are not exactly stellar in the comparison. I didn't add the hurricane bolters, though. But I don't expect them to skyrocket their damage against high T monsters. Plus the range is short.
Very biased position on the range considering two of your weapons in this list have shorter range for the damage shown (regular Hellblasters and Inceptors) and one has the exact same range (Grav Devs).
Furthermore, Bolter Discipline applies all the time for units with the CENTURION keyword, so it's even smarter to consider it.
I'm sorry, you are right. I forgot about that because Hellblasters and Inceptors got good delivery options kind of bypassing their range issue. I will add the hurricane bolters.
Concerning Salamanders I can't recommend an Invictus Warsuit with flame cannon and the strat Relentless Determination enough. Yes, using it on some Aggressors is the golden child but mine keep getting focus fired and have yet to shoot once. Which is fine by me as seeing an entire army's shooting on ~100-500 pts if you include a Repulsor is amazing.
Though the second trait of making ap-1 be ap 0 hasn't tripped once as most marines I've played become Tactical so it feels underwhelming. I am tempted to dust off my drop pods and use a Successor chapter to get the rerolls and +3 range to watch the world burn.
One last thought being that the meta in my flgs is castling, the psychic power Flaming Blast has been nice.
Smirrors wrote: I am thinking of getting a Relic Deredeo as a centre piece for my army with its 5++ aura to give my IH airwing some early protection. With ironstone and duty eternal its only marginally weaker than a leviathan when it gets shot. Worthy idea?
I feel like the planes need that invul against a shooting army otherwise they are pretty fragile. I have seen a few lists run without it so I dont have any practical experience yet.
I may be wrong but I believe the deredeo invul you have to be fully within 6" to get it so it probably wont be able to cover many planes.
That being said I'm really interested in them in IF. Making the autocannons dmg 3 is very nice and you can protect a key unit or 2 with the invul.
You know what fits in their aura fully? 3 Ven Gun Dreads. I did that and it was buckets of fun.
What load out on all the Dreads? I have 3 ven's and was thing of getting a deredeo
I was doing Autocannons for a while. Then I switched to using the TLLas and ML because that's what Deathwatch are stuck with. Ya know, for reasons.
Pop the Strat to reroll 1s to hit and nobody in that circle is ever missing for all intents and purposes.
This is exactly why I think things like autocannon are what you want, rather than just going for 1-damage stuff. It’s why I included riptides in the calculations I did. Killing one of those with heavy bolters will take too long.
Plasma can definitely do a job. I like rapid fire hellblasters much more than heavy ones though. Coming out of an impulsor they look dangerous.
As a general rule though, plasma units tend to be glass hammers and/or need to get close to the enemy for best effect. And clearly they lose a lot of power against flyers and stuff with invulnerable saves, making them inconsistent. Right now I’d find it hard to recommend any plasma unit for a TAC list.
Xenomancer, -1 to hit exist, but it's not everywhere (and it´s very likely to become even more rare when all -1 to hit blanket rules get standarized with Raven Guard's one). It's mainly on flyers and infantry, and none of those are the objective of this unit (nor this analysis).
I will add high ROF units in my monster analysis later, to see if they are effective enough to make anti-monster not needed.
-1 to hit rules are explicitly not being standardized to Corax Pattern Shenanigans. Alaitoc already got its PA update, and is untouched.
That's some serious bs by GW, then. One of the most broken mechanics in the game and they leave it untouched while toning it down for a single army. Great job guys.
You didn't seriously expect GW to standardise?-) Like they standardised rerolls when Cawl came with his reroll that allows rerolling even with modifiers?-) Or like FOR SURE plasma gets standardised to work on unmodified 1 when ork overheat was that. Everybody was 110% sure that's coming in CA2018.
GW has long abandoned any kind of standardisation or internal logic.
My biggest issue with the impulser is we wanted a rhino transport for primaris and they gave us a razorback. That doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses, but it's not what people want lol. Give it another 2 years and we will have a new release with the rhino we all want in it finally.
mrwhoop wrote: Concerning Salamanders I can't recommend an Invictus Warsuit with flame cannon and the strat Relentless Determination enough. Yes, using it on some Aggressors is the golden child but mine keep getting focus fired and have yet to shoot once. Which is fine by me as seeing an entire army's shooting on ~100-500 pts if you include a Repulsor is amazing.
Though the second trait of making ap-1 be ap 0 hasn't tripped once as most marines I've played become Tactical so it feels underwhelming. I am tempted to dust off my drop pods and use a Successor chapter to get the rerolls and +3 range to watch the world burn.
One last thought being that the meta in my flgs is castling, the psychic power Flaming Blast has been nice.
I was also thinking about the idea of using 2-3 Invictus Warsuits to draw fire in my Salamanders army. It seems like putting something like that into the front line turn one seems like it would create a situation where the opponent can't ignore them and has to focus fire them, thus allowing a turn or two for the transports with the flamer guys to move close.
But maybe only inexperienced players will actually be fooled by the distraction of the warsuits. It seems like expert players would know right away that the real threat is in the transports, and would try to neutralize the war suits somehow (like tagging them in close combat with sacrificial or tarpit units) and then focus fire where it matters, on stopping the transports.
So that's my question: is the threat of 2-3 Invictor Warsuits with Salamanders-buffed flamer strats enough to *force* an opponent who knows what he's doing to ignore the transports for a turn or two?
Warsuits are very aggressively costed for how much damage they can deal so you cant really ignore them. MA makes those 5 melee attacks hit harder than most smash captains. And the flamer + all its shots makes it really hard to tag in melee. You need more than just a 10 man infantry squad for each. Just shooting + melee kills a 10 man squad before morale.
And with strats you can get 12 flamer hits that deal mortal wounds on 4+. That is really dangerous on a 10" move model and 12" range flamer. With only the + str stratagem an Invictor deals slightly above 10 wounds to t8 3+ in melee as well.
You cant ignore it at all unless you can tarpit it with something like plaguebearers.
Its more like the flamer guys in transports that are the distraction. Dont see how they would be more of a threat. Them you could easily screen with some cheap infantry units so they dont get close to flame anything good while the invictor can flame screens and then charge and hit really hard whats behind. That infiltrate deployment with 10" move makes the invictor much harder to stop.
I've one of each on the way for my nascent army, mostly because I really like the models.
From my uneducated perspective, I'd imagine a single Impulsor is a bit naff, as it'll just get picked off.
But I'm thinking perhaps three or so, with transportees could prove a nasty flanking force?
And what upgrades are people giving them, and why?
There's buzz on the Internet about Impulsor spam--that if you take 7 or 8 of them, with as many guns as you can pack on them (but not the shield) and just fill them with intercessors, or even use them empty, then that's a lot of firepower that can just overwhelm opponents' anti-vehicle shooting. Most of the buzz I've heard is, obviously, go go Iron Hands because of the advantages in the damage brackets.
The short version is that all the loadouts seem pretty viable (including no top hatch weapon) aside from not wanting to have more than one or two of the orbital comms array impulsors at max.
I still have to assemble my two impulsors, but my intended role is to use them as assault-harassment units with the 4++. They basically do the same thing 3-man bike squads do, but way tougher.
I'll put hellblasters in mine, which seems like the most obvious choice. Jump forward 14", dump out the hellblasters, and then spend the rest of the game ping-ponging around in the enemy backline bumping into things and stopping them from shooting.
The Tactical Withdraw chapter trait makes them hilarious at this.
This is what the rhino is best at, and the impulsor just dials that up to 11. It's crazy fast, can fly, can fallback and shoot, and can be equipped with a 4++ for real annoying durability for a distraction unit. 100ish points is pretty good for that sort of disruption.
4++ is a trap on the impuslor. For 5 points you can more double the units firepower. or for 20 points you can increase your durability by maybe 50% or 0 % in a lot of situations. You can run around with a 2+ save with stealthy and it's cheaper. 4++ is useless unless you are transporting hell blasters which is sadly...also useless.
Sadly in both them games I've played both my impulsors they have been destroyed turn 1 before I could even use them. However - they are literally the cheapest unit in my army so...It means I am doing something right if I am winning...going second...and they are attacking my weakest unit. I think an impuslor is about equal to an intercessor unit of 5 man in firepower and it's way more durable for about the same points. They are totally spam-able. I think armies of 6+ impulsor are going to be pretty common.
The missile isn't a terrible choice ether I just think skytalon is a much better deal.
I wouldn’t say useless, but I definitely wouldn’t use it too often. I was contemplating a WS list idea with something like Khan and a banner in an Impulsor, so I’d prob do 4++ on his and then the 5pt gun on the others.
You could do Mortal Wound spam with them at least. Get Huron, a Damocles, one of those new vehicles, and then be sure to cast Orbital Bombardment. Something might die or get hurt I guess?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and don't forget Imperial Fists getting a Warlord trait doing the same thing.
bort wrote: I wouldn’t say useless, but I definitely wouldn’t use it too often. I was contemplating a WS list idea with something like Khan and a banner in an Impulsor, so I’d prob do 4++ on his and then the 5pt gun on the others.
That makes sense - the issue is there are so many good ap-1 or 2 anti tank weapons that you'd be getting a 4+ save for anyways.
I haven’t decided on list if I swap yet, but I’m definitely thinking I might go back to WS over RG for any sort of midfield/assault style. Keep feeling like RG is great for starting exactly where you want to be and then just being mediocre and foot slogging onwards. WS need an extra turn to move up, but hit like a truck once stuck in and can reposition faster.
Only thing (beyond the obvious Master of Ambush) I wish I could use as WS is an avoid overwatch trait/relic, I hate relying on a psychic power. Which is why I was eyeing Impulsors over full infantry again, give me something to charge in first if necessary.
Seen a comment or two about the Skytalon array being better than the Belicastus array.
As an old school n00b, I’ve always favoured flexible firepower. I get that the missile array is neither Herman nor Sherman, but to my mind that’s a good thing.
I’m also aware people don’t favour the Ork Squig Buggy precisely because it’s neither Herman nor Sherman.
So I played a game earlier tonight with my Black Templars vs Black legion. I played as a imperial fist successor chapter with 5+++ vs mortal wounds and +1 to advance / charge. Not the strongest setup but more in line for black templars than I think we currently have.
2 things I noticed real quick. I tried some stuff out for fun just to see how it worked.
Relic contemptor dreadnought with 2 assault cannons is just nasty in imperial fists. 12 str 7 ap-2 2dmg vs vehicles? Oh yeah, it was a serious threat to any vehicles within 24".
Smash chaplain with power fist, jump pack, mantra of strength, and fist of terra relic is very good. 6 attacks at str 10 ap-3 1+d3 dmg on the charge? That's enough to make most units stop and take notice.
Also a side thing, on the repulser executioner, I ran mine with the plasma cannon, in imperial fists this thing is also quite nasty. 2d6str 9 ap-5 3 flat vs vehicles? This thing can just blow enemy vehicles away! I prefer it to the super las cannon, random shots and 3 flat dmg I find is easier to manipulate than 4 flat shots and d6 (min 3) dmg. You roll a 4 and a 1 for number of shots and a single cp can make that number of shots go much higher than rerolling a damage roll on the other side of things. But maybe that's just me that thinks this?
Heres my Salamanders list that im taking into my LGS today. List is pretty much entirely reliant on Sworm protectors to function at all. I think 2 battalions is the sweet spot for a list like this. Brayarth is a threat that can't be ignored, as in if you ignore him you wont be able to target the giant blob of death that is behind him. Which i think is enough to justify his cost. And of course there are some armies that will literally just fold to not being able to shoot anything.
Any suggestions? Flex slots are definitely my biker captain, im not convinced of his efficacy yet. Plan is with him is to hunt down infantry units and the like. Agatone feels a little Gratuitous when everything already is wounding on 2s/3s against everything anyways.
We always give brayarth a warlord trait. I think agaisnt executioner castles its worth giving him 11 toughness, and agaisnt everyone else Lord of fire is ideal, as hes the most reliable platform to put it on and give the greatest reach for that aura.
Leviathan is hard, hes got great guns, and is my main target for fires of battle, and is as far as the list actually goes its my only source of s8 long range firepower.
Against orks i had a lot of fun disintegrating everything
Plasma can definitely do a job. I like rapid fire hellblasters much more than heavy ones though. Coming out of an impulsor they look dangerous.
As a general rule though, plasma units tend to be glass hammers and/or need to get close to the enemy for best effect. And clearly they lose a lot of power against flyers and stuff with invulnerable saves, making them inconsistent. Right now I’d find it hard to recommend any plasma unit for a TAC list.
I think Plasma Inceptors falling turn 2 close to a Phobos Captain (Chapter Master if you want) with Eye of Hypnoth could do a lot of work against different targets, relatively safely. I'm starting to like them more than Rapidfire Hellblasters.
Plus, my single Impulsor (I know, too few) can transport 5 veteran Intercessors with a thunder hammer and a Librarian for Null Zone.
Third place Jesus H Christ is that strategem overpowered. Leviathan isn’t worth it. Brayarth most certainly is. Flex slots currently are, number of termies, 10 is where I want to be at I’m thinking lightning claws for some. 4/6 split possibly. Captain on bike might be going, scouts are definitely being upgraded, rapier is being upgraded, I want to stick a tfc in the list, and I’m cutting 2 scout squads for MSU infiltrators. Severely limits the range at what you can deepstrike, beyond that we got room for a harath, which is neat adding more survability to terminators. A techmarine as a second relic holder and a unit that will make killing brayarth a much bigger hassle.
Sworn protectors. 2 CP, use at the start of the opponents shooting phase pick a Salamanders infantry unit, other infantry units within 6" cannot be the target of attacks unless the are the closest visible model
But I understand (and have checked with gaming group) that I can field a Dedicated Transport choice for each other unit in my army, regardless of whether said other units can embark on that or any other transport.
With that in mind, are Impulsors with the extra shooty worth taking as rapid response units - intended to zip about and tackle deep strikers, or provide LoS blocking?
I mean, they’re not exactly Tough As Old Boots, but with the shield generator, they’re at the very least a Pain In The Arse to shift, whilst still packing fairly decent anti-infantry firepower?
The idea does appeal to me, but wondering wot Dakka finks?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically a role broadly similar to Bikes, but with added LoS blocking advantage - and indeed charge blocking.
Torn on that idea over which ‘turret’ option to go for. All have some form of appeal, and different applications, from dropping Mortal Wound Deff, making them harder to wreck, and added fire, whether dedicated or flexible (still more persuaded by the Missile Array’s flex here, as I need to worry less about what might drop out of the Sky).
I got the impression that an army of IH Impulsors with the gun turrets is considered super competitive. I'd be all over that if it were Rhinos instead of Impulsors. I just can't bring myself to buy 8 Impulsors to replace the 9 Rhinos I own to do the same army type.
It’s one thing to hear they’re good, applied well. And another to understand the why, and that’s what I’m lacking.
Whilst well out of practice, I’ve always had a knack for writing a list I’m filthy with, and indeed often benefits from codex changes, possibly because I’m too stubborn to listen to conventional wisdom
But Impulsors do seem very handy in a scrap. A proper IFV. with guns meant to support their passengers, but can be used as a proper fighting vehicle.
Trouble is, my tactics and strategies tend to only catch out good players once, maybe twice!
So for a pure Primaris army, are Iron Hands or Ultra Marines the better choice? UM seem better for firepower but IH seems better for survivability, especially if you're running a heavily mechanized force like I am hoping to.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s one thing to hear they’re good, applied well. And another to understand the why, and that’s what I’m lacking.
Just look at its datasheet. Its T7 W11 for 102 pts., with ironhail heavy stubber, twin SB, and bellicastus missile array, which has 3 different profiles to shoot with. Enemy charge is -2. It has FLY, so it can still shoot after falling back. As IH it still shoots at full BS with 3 wounds left, and can re-roll 1s to hit for everything, except the SB. It ignores the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. And 6 primaris models can still disembark after it has moved. Bring 5 hellblasters with a captain into rapid fire range, overcharge, and shoot. Or disembark 6 aggressors, preferably ultramarines, which count as stationary, during the tactical doctrine. Or move it, and disembark 6 intercessors with auto bolt rifles at 12", and play the auto hit stratagem.
Bikes any good right now? Recently got a bunch for dirt cheap and interested in putting them on the board. I usually run as Raven Guard and I’m tempted to use their insane speed with the RG infiltrator strat to guarantee a bad touch t1
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s one thing to hear they’re good, applied well. And another to understand the why, and that’s what I’m lacking.
It’s the FLY keyword.
Razorbacks and Rhinos can be prevented from firing indefinitely just by tagging or wrapping them in close combat.
Impulsors just fall back and resume shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
C4790M wrote: Bikes any good right now? Recently got a bunch for dirt cheap and interested in putting them on the board. I usually run as Raven Guard and I’m tempted to use their insane speed with the RG infiltrator strat to guarantee a bad touch t1
Raven Guard bikes can get there with infiltrate, and also using a Swift and Deadly character. But once they get there they’re just S4 AP0 models with 1 attack base (2 with a chainsword or scout bike combat knife). So they can really only take on weak units in a bully role. Shooting is more effective, but leaves the bikes vulnerable. I’d be interested to try maybe keeping them safe with Skilled Rider strat and wrapping, but I’m skeptical about it working.
White Scars bikes are better in melee with D2 after turn 3, and they can use the outflank strat and don’t need the warlord trait to advance & charge. But White Scars have better choices available for the same points.
I haven't really liked bikers since I couldn't take them as a Troop choice.
Now, a squad of 4 , all Chainswords, does a good amount of shooting for the price and can bully shooting units in melee, but they're not the Special Weapon delivery system they used to be. However, Scout Bikers are WAY better.
You could also try turning them into Biker HQ units. I still like my Captain on a Bike (but that's only as Raven Guard or White Scars).
Whoops, yeah. And since the FAQ, so is Master of Ambush, come to think of it. I keep making that mistake.
So then there’s nothing special about Raven Guard bikes in terms of delivery? Except for the ability to use an advance+charge warlord trait, they have to zoom across from the deployment zone just like everybody else’s bikes?
Yeah for 71 pts you get 3 bikers, srg with a storm bolter, putting out 16 bolter shots and having 8 wounds at t5 moving 14" a turn. Price to performance bikes rock. I find the moment you start putting special weapons on them they suck because they become too point heavy for their effective use. I typically run 3 squads of 3 with a bike captain as a fast response team, getting where they need to and supporting the lines. Works very well.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah for 71 pts you get 3 bikers, srg with a storm bolter, putting out 16 bolter shots and having 8 wounds at t5 moving 14" a turn. Price to performance bikes rock. I find the moment you start putting special weapons on them they suck because they become too point heavy for their effective use. I typically run 3 squads of 3 with a bike captain as a fast response team, getting where they need to and supporting the lines. Works very well.
Scout bikers actually get more shots for fewer points, thanks to having shotguns. They do only have a 4+ save but are a bit faster.
On the Impulsor, the thing that makes it good is being a fast, cheap unit that’s reasonably tough and has ok firepower. Iron Hands ones will be tough and Fist ones will be really quite shooty.
I’m not sure what the best gun to go on it is, but for my Fists I think it’ll be the AA stubbers. 6 shots doing 2 damage each, wounding most vehicles with fly on a 4+. 90 points for a vehicle with 17 shots within 12” sounds great.
The extra 2” off charges is really cool. You can use them as a screen because they’re very difficult to charge out of deep strike and it doesn’t hugely matter if they die anyway.
In my opinion they’re like a new, better, version of the dual AC razorback. The fly keyword in particular is worth loads.
Was doing some theory crafting and a thought occurred to me. What happens if you have an Imperial Fist chaplain venerable dreadnought with the half damage taken warlord trait and you use the duty eternal strat to half all damage? Do you half damage twice or would they not do anything at all? Because holy heck that would be a beefy boy with double reducing all damage taken and a 6+++.
Am I mistaken or is battlescribe listing the points of the chaplain dreadnoughts power fist wrong? Standard combat weapons were reduced in points to 20. I thought maybe this didn't effect FW, but FW dreadnought are also showing up as 20 points instead of the 30 listed on the dread. Is BS just wrong on this one?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Am I mistaken or is battlescribe listing the points of the chaplain dreadnoughts power fist wrong? Standard combat weapons were reduced in points to 20. I thought maybe this didn't effect FW, but FW dreadnought are also showing up as 20 points instead of the 30 listed on the dread. Is BS just wrong on this one?
Do you have any citation of this? My gut feeling would be only one does anything and the other is wasted, but IDK.
Well it is is logical that's what would happen. Apply one then apply the other. It's basically The Ironstone combo on steroids for all intents and purposes.
GOnna dig a bit deeper down the rabbit hole here. Could you give a chaplain dreadnought special issue wargear? I know you can't give them relics, but I'm not sure if special issue wargear counts as a relic for that. I am going to assume it does, but just wanted to make sure.
GOnna dig a bit deeper down the rabbit hole here. Could you give a chaplain dreadnought special issue wargear? I know you can't give them relics, but I'm not sure if special issue wargear counts as a relic for that. I am going to assume it does, but just wanted to make sure.
Yeh they are relics. Warlord trait is the only thing you can give a character dread.
GOnna dig a bit deeper down the rabbit hole here. Could you give a chaplain dreadnought special issue wargear? I know you can't give them relics, but I'm not sure if special issue wargear counts as a relic for that. I am going to assume it does, but just wanted to make sure.
Yeh they are relics. Warlord trait is the only thing you can give a character dread.
Ok cool ty. I was tempted to have that dread chappy packing a damage three assault cannon (against vehicles) with the +1 to wound against vehicles warlord trait. What a friggin UNIT that guy would have been lol.
GOnna dig a bit deeper down the rabbit hole here. Could you give a chaplain dreadnought special issue wargear? I know you can't give them relics, but I'm not sure if special issue wargear counts as a relic for that. I am going to assume it does, but just wanted to make sure.
Yeh they are relics. Warlord trait is the only thing you can give a character dread.
Ok cool ty. I was tempted to have that dread chappy packing a damage three assault cannon (against vehicles) with the +1 to wound against vehicles warlord trait. What a friggin UNIT that guy would have been lol.
I like the twinlas chappy dread. Give him the +1 attack/damage/wound ability in melle - hit with might of heros and use master of artisans. Basically 2 las that always hit and wound and then in melle you have 6 attacks that all hit and wound and flat 4 damage.
I am attending a tourney next week and notice everybody is bringing 3 stormtalon and 3 stormhawks. What is the deal here, what makes them so effective?
As Iron Hands they ignore the malus for moving and reroll 1's without any assistance making them hit on 2+ reroll 1s on their favorite target. So quite powerful, fast and independent and I imagine maybe resilient enough in an IH army.
And they really aren't expensive. That's quite a lot.
Hey dakka,
What do you think what are thw worst primaris units? I play only primaris and so far I just can't find a place for reivers, so I think they are the worst. For the second place I pick the repulsor, I have one, but it never fits any of my lists. It's just way too expensive, I've made couple drafts woth 5 aggressors inside, but I think master of ambush or strike from thr shadows is more efficient way to deliver those units. Am I wrong with this 1 and 2 ranking? Executioner isn't really that much more expensive and we have so much dakka going on from all the units, so a dedicated dakka flyer is just too expensive. But I ordered an impulsor today, because I can fit it in the list with 6 helblasters and it feels way more point efficient what comes to maneuverability and benefits of a flying T8.
Agree that Reivers, which weren't all that great even before the release of the other phobos marines, are now even more underwhelming. Their guns lack firepower. If you take the combat knives, they're still no better than the (cheaper) veteran intercessors in melee, and they lose all their firepower. And they have to pay extra for their deployment options.
A significant price drop and free grapnel/chute might make them worthwhile if you're playing a chapter without deepstrike options and need something for recon or behind enemy lines.
[later thought] Maybe if their guns had three shots, or if they got some kind of assault distance boost, in addition to getting either grapnels or grav chutes for free.
TFC/Eliminators to kill their drones. Then just drown in fire from ap-1/2 sources. Tau match up really well vs marines though so take care anytime you play them. Kill the markerlights is still probably your best best against tau.
Has anyone used the sicarian punisher at all? Thinking of using it for my ultramarine successors
185pts with heavy bolter sponsons I think it would be good at clearing hordes and screening units with heavy doctrine first turn then ability to move and not suffer any penatly turn two with scions of gulliman
daismith906 wrote: Has anyone used the sicarian punisher at all? Thinking of using it for my ultramarine successors
185pts with heavy bolter sponsons I think it would be good at clearing hordes and screening units with heavy doctrine first turn then ability to move and not suffer any penatly turn two with scions of gulliman
Ironhands works turn 1 with no penalty and you get reroll 1s too.
I know Chaplain dreads were eratted to not be able to take relics, but is there a rule that would prevent a Land Raider Excelsior (before it gets squatted)? Forgemaster + Salamanders Mantle seems to be amazingly unkillable. Low damage for the points, but immune to anything less than S6 is insane, and 6’s to wound from Lascannons (before mods, obvs). Take it further with Promethean Creed and Never Give Up and you’ve more or less locked your opponent out of slay the warlord and have Ob Sec to hold a point until 9th Ed drops.
Played against salamanders today with my crimson fists and I lost narrowly. I've lost my post few games with marines and I think I'm just too defensive with them. I always seem to sit back with my intercessors and shoot at stuff but I'm thinking now that moving forwards as a wall of infantry would be more effective.
For the first time ever as well I used a unit of 5 aggressors and they were pretty crap, we played the deployment which is lengthways and they basically got too shoot once then got smashed with stalker bolt rifles.
Really considering using a unit of 4 inceptors now for pure mobility and very handy firepower. I keep bouncing around different units and am now getting to grips now with what works best.
daismith906 wrote: Has anyone used the sicarian punisher at all? Thinking of using it for my ultramarine successors
185pts with heavy bolter sponsons I think it would be good at clearing hordes and screening units with heavy doctrine first turn then ability to move and not suffer any penatly turn two with scions of gulliman
Ironhands works turn 1 with no penalty and you get reroll 1s too.
JDarion wrote: I know Chaplain dreads were eratted to not be able to take relics, but is there a rule that would prevent a Land Raider Excelsior (before it gets squatted)? Forgemaster + Salamanders Mantle seems to be amazingly unkillable. Low damage for the points, but immune to anything less than S6 is insane, and 6’s to wound from Lascannons (before mods, obvs). Take it further with Promethean Creed and Never Give Up and you’ve more or less locked your opponent out of slay the warlord and have Ob Sec to hold a point until 9th Ed drops.
First paragraph of the relics chapter in Sally (I think every supplement)
Named characters (such as Adrax
Agatone) and VEHICLE models cannot be given the following Relics.
So for a Primaris IH list should I just load on heavy weapons anytime I can take them? Like always give my Intercessors Stalker bolt rifles and my Hellblasters Heavy Plasma Incinerators?
Thoughts on redemptor dreadnoughts?? I absolutely love mine and use him every game but I think he might have to be dropped through lack of effectiveness.
Past 3 games he has been relatively pants for me just sat at the back defending against anything that comes close which is gooyd main function. However if he moves he becomes very poor shooting wise and I can barely ever get him into combat. Im thinking of dropping him for an invictor to get me more board control!
You can take them as many times as you want but you can only use 1 of them per battle round. So in other words if you have 2 Chaplin's with the same litany only one can use the power, the other one is just there for redundancy.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, now I have 3 fully painted Invictors and I would like to field them.
Any hints how to use them. Raven Guard would be my first choice as this army can support their forward deployment properly.
Thoughts?
I only have one up and painted so I've not been able to test it yet, but I think it could work well in any chapter because it's such a distraction carnifex that has the tools to deal with anything really. Very cost efficient. Ultramarines have a strat to re-deploy anything so that can help with pulling them back if you dont get first. Iron hands can move and shoot at no penalty and re-roll 1s + being more durable so they're an obvious choice. Salamanders can buff ones flamer to lay the hurt down. Raven guard can work for the reasons you mentioned.
Everyone but Ultramarines risk losing first turn and having them deployed in a way that lets the opponent sweep them off the board easily. This may buy the rest of your army time, but I really prefer to have the option of redeploying them back out of danger if I lose first turn.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Played against salamanders today with my crimson fists and I lost narrowly. I've lost my post few games with marines and I think I'm just too defensive with them. I always seem to sit back with my intercessors and shoot at stuff but I'm thinking now that moving forwards as a wall of infantry would be more effective.
As a fellow Crimson Fist, I find they work well as an infantry horde that walks into the centre and holds it. Naturally it depends a lot on what units are in your list.
I haven't been impressed by aggressors yet either.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, now I have 3 fully painted Invictors and I would like to field them.
Any hints how to use them. Raven Guard would be my first choice as this army can support their forward deployment properly.
Thoughts?
Played several times against Invictors in ITC games, where you usually want to hold the center of the board.
The most effective way I've seen them used in ITC is to deploy them forward, out of LoS if possible, in spots where they can walk to the center of the board in turn 1 (whether you get turn one or not). 10" of movement means you can put them pretty far back and still cover the center objectives with your movement. A screen of phobos/scout infantry as far forward as possible helps keep the area they're moving into clear.
Once they're at the center, they work as blockers and screeners, hugging LoS blocking terrain and using autocannons to either sweep enemy screens or reach vulnerable units at the back. They can be wrapped, but are surprisingly resilient with all those wounds. You expect them all to be destroyed, but they buy your army enough time to score the easy kills and objective captures that put your score out front while your long-range guns do damage to the opponent.
Down the line I hope to get three for my salamanders army, to run interference for the flamer units moving up the table.
1. You gotta kill the drones first, otherwise there's no point. Start at one end of the gunline and saturate drones with str 4+ massed fire. Personally I find Vengeance Whirlwinds better than Thunderfires for killing drones. Fewer shots, but forcing them to pass two ignore-wound save nets more actual dead drones I think.
2. Continue to ignore the riptides mostly. Once drones are reduced, take one potshot at a riptide to force the Tau player to take wounds giving it a 3+ invul, then focus fire on other units. If there are broadsides especially, focus on them before riptides. Snipe out the characters as soon as they're out of reach of savior protocols.
2.5 Get the markerlight guys first, and try to make the riptides move so they need high rolls to hit. If you have powers or abilities that cause -1 to hit to enemy units (there's an RG librarian power, for example) use that.
3. After you've killed everything else and all the riptides are hurting from all the wounds they've taken from boosting their saves, and when the Tau player is out of CPs, charge in with overwatch-ignoring relics/powers and kill them with thunderhammers. But you've probably won the game by that point.
1. You gotta kill the drones first, otherwise there's no point. Start at one end of the gunline and saturate drones with str 4+ massed fire. Personally I find Vengeance Whirlwinds better than Thunderfires for killing drones. Fewer shots, but forcing them to pass two ignore-wound save nets more actual dead drones I think.
But if you actually do the maths rather than guessing you'll find that on average a thunderfire kills almost twice as many drones on average
The thunderfire gets about 1.5 drones and the vengeance whirlwind about 0.8 when no rerolls / modifiers on either. Drones are tough...
1. You gotta kill the drones first, otherwise there's no point. Start at one end of the gunline and saturate drones with str 4+ massed fire. Personally I find Vengeance Whirlwinds better than Thunderfires for killing drones. Fewer shots, but forcing them to pass two ignore-wound save nets more actual dead drones I think.
But if you actually do the maths rather than guessing you'll find that on average a thunderfire kills almost twice as many drones on average
The thunderfire gets about 1.5 drones and the vengeance whirlwind about 0.8 when no rerolls / modifiers on either. Drones are tough...
It's not his fault his opponent doesn't play the drones right. SP states all damage is reduced to 1 mortal wound (probably the dumbest part of the SP rule) but that is the way it works. If you had to make 2 FNP for a 2 damage weapon tau drone might actually not be so broken.
Pretty sure he was targeting the drones directly? Sounded like it.
To be fair now I've looked a whirlwind with vengeance does kill very slightly more drones by targeting the riptide directly. (0.9 rather than that 0.8 presuming savior protocols are passed)
Any idea of how to play the Inquisition with our marines ? Anything that looks particularly good ?
Btw, which chapter has a way to make an opponent spend another CP on a 5+ when he uses stratagems ? I think I remember this from somewhere
Bare bones Ordo Xenos gives a 5+ CP farm and a cast/deny for 55 points and 1CP. Ordo Malleus gives two casts/denies for the same. I’d probably spring for the targeted smite vs leadership and/or the CP snatch powers.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Stalker Intercessors get free rerolls and get to be on the move. So why wouldn't you ever take them?
I'm thinking about horde armies like nids where all that AP and range would be wasted.
I think youll find the ap and range are more than satisfactory for killing hordes. Obviously the ABR does it a lot better BUT.
FNP? Dont care. 4+ save? Nope. Stalker is just fine for killing infantry. In a game that goes full/many turns just think how useless your opponents troops feel sitting on objectives doing nothing while your popping 5 shots a turn that completely ignore their saves and force a leadership check. Plus they are fantastic against things like admech destroyers and ofc...primaris marines. IMO the stalker is actually pretty OP. AP-3 on your standard weapon with 36" range should not be free compared to the bolt rifle.
Also don't forget - intercessors are pretty good at clearing hordes in melle. Space marines have an absurd amount of anti horde killing already...you can afford to give your troops a more anti elite weapon.
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godardc wrote: Any idea of how to play the Inquisition with our marines ? Anything that looks particularly good ?
Btw, which chapter has a way to make an opponent spend another CP on a 5+ when he uses stratagems ? I think I remember this from somewhere
Nothing looks good considering it shuts of doctrines. Right?
DoomMouse wrote: Pretty sure he was targeting the drones directly? Sounded like it.
To be fair now I've looked a whirlwind with vengeance does kill very slightly more drones by targeting the riptide directly. (0.9 rather than that 0.8 presuming savior protocols are passed)
That is a waste though. They will just take 3+ saves on the riptide. If you can see the drones with anything - you are already set. Whirlwinds and TFC do not compare favorably to things that can get LOS. Even an impuslor out damages a whirlwind against drones if you can see them.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It might shut off super Doctrines, but not Doctrines themselves. Since I don't approve of the Super Doctrines existing in the first place I approve.
Nice way for me to fit in a dude for CP farming. Just need to make room is all...
Doctrines shut of if you have a single non space marine detachment...no? Super Doctrines shut off if all your space marine detachments are not the same chapter.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Ah the sweet sound of Xeno losing his mind because he can’t be bothered to know what he’s talking about. Delicious.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Ah the sweet sound of Xeno losing his mind because he can’t be bothered to know what he’s talking about. Delicious.
I think it's a cool rule, perfectly fluffy and 1/ still keep marines away from 99,99% of soup
2/ allow to play Inquisition without having to stupidly flesh it out as a full army like Grey Knights
godardc wrote: I think it's a cool rule, perfectly fluffy and 1/ still keep marines away from 99,99% of soup
2/ allow to play Inquisition without having to stupidly flesh it out as a full army like Grey Knights
If it is a unique trait to just inquisitors because they aren't EVER going to be fleshed out. It's fine.
You didnt ask a question. You went on your usual ignorant rant about something you knew nothing about instead of, for once, trying to understand what the item in question was before dismissing it as the latest example of GW making the game different from your fantasy of what it should be.
I'm interested to see what all the bonuses will be for each specialist character from the new strats. We know chaplain gets an extra litany which I think is very strong and an auto take if you are bringing a chaplain. One of those next to my six pack centurions and hello +1BS and +1 to wound if they get both off.
My predictions are
Librarian: Knows one extra power. Denies one extra. Maybe +1 to cast, but I doubt it. (Not bad. Would take it against other psyker lists)
Reasoning being being able to cast a 3rd would over shadow the named characters who only get to manifest two.
Apothecary: heals d3+1 and revives on a 3+. (solid. Not bad.)
Techmarine: Heals a flat 3. (Meh. Not worth it by itself)
Ancient: Really hard to say, but I think either banner goes off a on 3 (Auto take), extra range by 3 inches (decent I guess) or ability to plant the banner and do something special.
Company champion: Buffs him up to chapter champion levels. (If you are bringing one you are probably gonna buff him up)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Considering a fair sized vanguard contingent on my Crimson fists army. I know they are expensive but a squad of infiltrators and an invictor (I only have 1) with some scouts all pushing forward early should be able to draw some for away from my main battle line with a whole load of intercessors and repulsors!
I’m waiting to see what the faqs bring, but as is, think a Siegebreaker Cohort is worth splashing in another marine list? Main weakness I hit in my RG or WS list ideas is antitank that doesn’t require getting off a non overwatch charge. Basically I’d drop a smash captain, a quad las mortis, and the super doctrines to get 5-6 Siegebreaker dev cents and let all my indirect fire units ignore cover from the IF trait. It’s still all my shooty eggs in 1 basket, but it’s a lot better than 4 lascannons. Seems worth it?
Blood Hawk wrote: New strats to upgrade characters to chapter command status? A little out of left field GW but I will take it.
The Chappy one ain't too bad because you can go ahead and take Mantra and then still have the supporting one. You're probably gonna use more CP though because the effect going off on a 3+ is pretty damn unreliable.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'm interested to see what all the bonuses will be for each specialist character from the new strats. We know chaplain gets an extra litany which I think is very strong and an auto take if you are bringing a chaplain. One of those next to my six pack centurions and hello +1BS and +1 to wound if they get both off.
My predictions are
Librarian: Knows one extra power. Denies one extra. Maybe +1 to cast, but I doubt it. (Not bad. Would take it against other psyker lists)
Reasoning being being able to cast a 3rd would over shadow the named characters who only get to manifest two.
Apothecary: heals d3+1 and revives on a 3+. (solid. Not bad.)
Techmarine: Heals a flat 3. (Meh. Not worth it by itself)
Ancient: Really hard to say, but I think either banner goes off a on 3 (Auto take), extra range by 3 inches (decent I guess) or ability to plant the banner and do something special.
Company champion: Buffs him up to chapter champion levels. (If you are bringing one you are probably gonna buff him up)
This is the first I'm hearing of this. Was this in the White Dwarf, or a rumored addition to Chapter Approved, or something else?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'm interested to see what all the bonuses will be for each specialist character from the new strats. We know chaplain gets an extra litany which I think is very strong and an auto take if you are bringing a chaplain. One of those next to my six pack centurions and hello +1BS and +1 to wound if they get both off.
My predictions are
Librarian: Knows one extra power. Denies one extra. Maybe +1 to cast, but I doubt it. (Not bad. Would take it against other psyker lists)
Reasoning being being able to cast a 3rd would over shadow the named characters who only get to manifest two.
Apothecary: heals d3+1 and revives on a 3+. (solid. Not bad.)
Techmarine: Heals a flat 3. (Meh. Not worth it by itself)
Ancient: Really hard to say, but I think either banner goes off a on 3 (Auto take), extra range by 3 inches (decent I guess) or ability to plant the banner and do something special.
Company champion: Buffs him up to chapter champion levels. (If you are bringing one you are probably gonna buff him up)
This is the first I'm hearing of this. Was this in the White Dwarf, or a rumored addition to Chapter Approved, or something else?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
As far as we know no, sisters and marines make you lose doctrines.
That being said, the ability to ignore certain rules is pretty core to how armies interact with the rules, it gives them uniqueness. and is well within established design space.
The only problem i have is that inquisitors dont break doctrines but assassins do and i think thats dumb
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Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'm interested to see what all the bonuses will be for each specialist character from the new strats. We know chaplain gets an extra litany which I think is very strong and an auto take if you are bringing a chaplain. One of those next to my six pack centurions and hello +1BS and +1 to wound if they get both off.
My predictions are
Librarian: Knows one extra power. Denies one extra. Maybe +1 to cast, but I doubt it. (Not bad. Would take it against other psyker lists)
Reasoning being being able to cast a 3rd would over shadow the named characters who only get to manifest two.
Apothecary: heals d3+1 and revives on a 3+. (solid. Not bad.)
Techmarine: Heals a flat 3. (Meh. Not worth it by itself)
Ancient: Really hard to say, but I think either banner goes off a on 3 (Auto take), extra range by 3 inches (decent I guess) or ability to plant the banner and do something special.
Company champion: Buffs him up to chapter champion levels. (If you are bringing one you are probably gonna buff him up)
Librarian being able to pick a trait in addition would be very nice for my salamanders list, I would very much like to take 2 powers from fire disicipline, the tome of vel'cona, and might of heroes on the same guy.
My double WL trait techmarine also really likes healing flat 3 with t5 and a 4++(he likes hanging out next to brayarth ashmantle). Apothecary id be willing to try again, Shen's problem is that hes 75(6?) points and hes really not worth that much. 50 pts for that ability is alot easier to justify even if hes really cool. I dont think ancient is going to be in there or a company champion but im open to being wrong. Chaplains are going to be nuts though im not sure ill be able to stick them in my list
Rakdarian wrote: I dont think ancient is going to be in there or a company champion but im open to being wrong. Chaplains are going to be nuts though im not sure ill be able to stick them in my list
Both the Champion and Ancient are listed in the table of contents shared on the WarCom article.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Like IG ignores it? Oh wait they don't. If you would bother to read fluff what the Inquisitors are you might understand why it makes completely sense they ignore it but not sisters.
I think the inquisitors look decent, but not auto-take. They’ve got the authority of the inquisition rule right. Slight shame they aren’t allowed to use any Primaris transports (they lack the Primaris keyword) but they’ll have uses.
I think Eisenhorn is probably the least useful. He’s basically not a particularly good beatstick. The pet daemonhost is fun but not actually very effective.
Cotaez is a great psyker, hampered by a not great discipline. But still makes a decent all round combatant and probably a decent use of his points.
Karamazov is a pretty effective fighter and comes with a proper gun, while on a very tough model with character protection. His LD11 bubble could be really handy if you were running an intercessor horde – though in that case you’re probably using an ancient to just be fearless.
I quite like Greyfax. Good denying, a little bit of character sniping and a great warlord trait. Anything that prevents the enemy from falling back is awesome. She’s unlikely to kill anything very much herself but locking a model in cc can be game-winning.
A couple of the strats are cool. Cyclonic torpedo has a pretty mad cost at 4CPs, but could be worth dropping on a Tau castle. Combined with something like the Orbital strike strat, an Impulsor and maybe the IF orbital strike warlord trait, lots of mortal wounds can be handed out if you see a lot of units in a blob. Otherwise getting CPs back if characters die nearby is a nice bonus and the warlord traits look worth having for 1CP.
DoomMouse wrote: Pretty sure he was targeting the drones directly? Sounded like it.
To be fair now I've looked a whirlwind with vengeance does kill very slightly more drones by targeting the riptide directly. (0.9 rather than that 0.8 presuming savior protocols are passed)
Yes, targeting the drones directly in this case.
I theorize that targeting the suit is always better when the wound roll is the same as for targeting the drones directly (because of the 1 in 6 fail on savior protocols). But in this case a vengeance launcher needs a 4 to wound a riptide vs. a 3 to wound the drones directly. But I haven't actually done the math.
The BT Doctrine is a bit underwhelming for competitive play but in a casual environnement, being able to override the whole wounding process seems pretty cool !
Especially with the litany giving them one more Attack. I can see a vanguard veteran having 2+1 for shock assault +2 for dual chainswords + 1 for the litany = 6 attack each guy easily.
Lots of 6s to fish !
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Why should any unit affect the space marines doctrines? You'd think an inquisitor would actually be one of the most disruptive things to a space marine commander. A space marine commander will actually obey an inquisitors orders...most of the time.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Like IG ignores it? Oh wait they don't. If you would bother to read fluff what the Inquisitors are you might understand why it makes completely sense they ignore it but not sisters.
Sisters are the main partners of the inquisition...You are missing the point. This is basically confirmation that the mono codex bonus is going to be a joke. With lots of ways to include "special" allies.
DoomMouse wrote: Pretty sure he was targeting the drones directly? Sounded like it.
To be fair now I've looked a whirlwind with vengeance does kill very slightly more drones by targeting the riptide directly. (0.9 rather than that 0.8 presuming savior protocols are passed)
Yes, targeting the drones directly in this case.
I theorize that targeting the suit is always better when the wound roll is the same as for targeting the drones directly (because of the 1 in 6 fail on savior protocols). But in this case a vengeance launcher needs a 4 to wound a riptide vs. a 3 to wound the drones directly. But I haven't actually done the math.
You shouldn't really change the way you would normally shoot the target without SP. Riptide has a 2+ save and will just eat every shot it can get a 2+ or 3+ save with that only does 1 wound if you shoot everything at the riptide. Basically shoot your HB at the drones and your lascannons at the riptide.
In a tournament I had to face a supremacy armor with like 40 drones. I had an army of knights. My casteallan shoot all its AP 3 or better guns at the supremacy and all the ap -1 at the drones. It was pretty effective. I got lucky once and my volcano lance got 2 shots through SP even - Plus a crusder also go a melta through. By turn 3 he had no drones left and a supremacy with like 7 wounds on him. Playing tau is so boring because what order you shoot things in is basically decided for you. It sucks.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The moment Assassins don't break Doctrines is the moment I free up points for a Callidus to combine Stranglehold on top of that.
Don't forget Coteaz ability, too !
What did Coteaz do again?
It was like an Auspex Scan ability; he could designate a nearby unit to get an out-of-sequence free shot at a unit arriving from reserve.
No: I was referencing to his ability to force an opponent to spend 1 more CP to use a stratagem. Which could be really fun used in a combination with strangehold and the callidus reign of confusion.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The moment Assassins don't break Doctrines is the moment I free up points for a Callidus to combine Stranglehold on top of that.
Don't forget Coteaz ability, too !
What did Coteaz do again?
It was like an Auspex Scan ability; he could designate a nearby unit to get an out-of-sequence free shot at a unit arriving from reserve.
No: I was referencing to his ability to force an opponent to spend 1 more CP to use a stratagem. Which could be really fun used in a combination with strangehold and the callidus reign of confusion.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The moment Assassins don't break Doctrines is the moment I free up points for a Callidus to combine Stranglehold on top of that.
Don't forget Coteaz ability, too !
What did Coteaz do again?
It was like an Auspex Scan ability; he could designate a nearby unit to get an out-of-sequence free shot at a unit arriving from reserve.
No: I was referencing to his ability to force an opponent to spend 1 more CP to use a stratagem. Which could be really fun used in a combination with strangehold and the callidus reign of confusion.
Oh man, that could be fun.
More importantly, hold on to it until your opponent uses a strat that costs exactly what they have for cp and deny/end their cp reign with a bit of "vecting" of your own lol. So good...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Why should any unit affect the space marines doctrines? You'd think an inquisitor would actually be one of the most disruptive things to a space marine commander. A space marine commander will actually obey an inquisitors orders...most of the time.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Inquisitors have a specific rule preventing it per the leaks.
Ahhh I see. Cool! More rules that can be completely ignored. I suppose this also works with sisters as well? So I can take sisters in my space marine force and still get doctrines? GW is a trash company.
Like IG ignores it? Oh wait they don't. If you would bother to read fluff what the Inquisitors are you might understand why it makes completely sense they ignore it but not sisters.
Sisters are the main partners of the inquisition...You are missing the point. This is basically confirmation that the mono codex bonus is going to be a joke. With lots of ways to include "special" allies.
DoomMouse wrote: Pretty sure he was targeting the drones directly? Sounded like it.
To be fair now I've looked a whirlwind with vengeance does kill very slightly more drones by targeting the riptide directly. (0.9 rather than that 0.8 presuming savior protocols are passed)
Yes, targeting the drones directly in this case.
I theorize that targeting the suit is always better when the wound roll is the same as for targeting the drones directly (because of the 1 in 6 fail on savior protocols). But in this case a vengeance launcher needs a 4 to wound a riptide vs. a 3 to wound the drones directly. But I haven't actually done the math.
You shouldn't really change the way you would normally shoot the target without SP. Riptide has a 2+ save and will just eat every shot it can get a 2+ or 3+ save with that only does 1 wound if you shoot everything at the riptide. Basically shoot your HB at the drones and your lascannons at the riptide.
In a tournament I had to face a supremacy armor with like 40 drones. I had an army of knights. My casteallan shoot all its AP 3 or better guns at the supremacy and all the ap -1 at the drones. It was pretty effective. I got lucky once and my volcano lance got 2 shots through SP even - Plus a crusder also go a melta through. By turn 3 he had no drones left and a supremacy with like 7 wounds on him. Playing tau is so boring because what order you shoot things in is basically decided for you. It sucks.
Fluff wise I like it - the NOFOS inquisitor is basically leading a requisitioned SM army so no problems
However the inquisitor brings 3 acolytes along and suddenly the requisitioned army forgets their doctrines not so fluffy.
Inquisition is a soup factions its meant to function along side others not as a purist faction so its only right it works that way.
Just to check, can inquisition units ride in drop pods again now? Or is that restricted by pre game deployment? I feel like there was an FAQ about it at some point prohibiting them...
There's also Rex, if you're looking for lots of psychic. Cast 3, know 3+Smite, Deny 4 with a +1 from Psychic hood, and can deep strike. That's including a warlord trait.
I think the best thing that the Inquisition does for Space Marines is their Terrify power that turns off overwatch. But some of their other stuff is pretty good, including a CP farm warlord trait. You can get a basic Inquisitor for 55 points that can give you all of that, but he'll be squishy as heck and have a hard time positioning himself where he needs to be.
I'm running a Salamanders army with Vulkan. Do you think it makes more sense to scrap him for say a Venerable Dread with twin autocannons and take the 3" to ranged weapons tactic for my flamer aggressors? I had very little success getting the aggressors in range.
landersloot wrote: I'm running a Salamanders army with Vulkan. Do you think it makes more sense to scrap him for say a Venerable Dread with twin autocannons and take the 3" to ranged weapons tactic for my flamer aggressors? I had very little success getting the aggressors in range.
Absolutely - +3" range is mandatory for salamanders IMO.
bmsattler wrote: There's also Rex, if you're looking for lots of psychic. Cast 3, know 3+Smite, Deny 4 with a +1 from Psychic hood, and can deep strike. That's including a warlord trait.
I think the best thing that the Inquisition does for Space Marines is their Terrify power that turns off overwatch. But some of their other stuff is pretty good, including a CP farm warlord trait. You can get a basic Inquisitor for 55 points that can give you all of that, but he'll be squishy as heck and have a hard time positioning himself where he needs to be.
Hello guys, do you think it is possible to make a semi-competitive Salamander or Raven Guard army list only with Primaris Space Marines? I want to stick to the new Primaris models only.
I don't aim at playing ultra competitive top tournaments for now, maybe some local tournaments at most.
Also I'm choosing between on of those two chapters (Sallies and Raven Guard). Which one you think would work better only with Primaris units?
Does anyone have any thoughts on a six man squad of inceptors run as salamanders with the+1 to wound strat?
With a chapter master, I run mine on a bike so shouldn't be hard to get him there, they kill 27 guardsmen, 21 without the cm, 9 intercessors, 7 without cm and do 11 wounds to a standard tank chassis, 8 without the cm.
That seems pretty decent, flexible firepower for 246 PTS.
Faith and Fury previews are out on Youtube. Interesting options for space marines. I think chaplains are the clear winners, but the other characters can be situationally good as well.
Chaplain: 1 CP to give 2 canticles at once is awesome. You can get a warlord trait to reroll failed canticles as well, which takes a lot of the swinginess (but not all) out of them.
Codex chapters also get a free canticle known for their chaplains.
Apothecaries can reroll failed revive checks. Warlord traits let them grant a 6+ FNP to infantry and bikers (?) or heal twice.
Tech Marines heal a flat 3. Warlord trait can grant vehicles in proximity a +1 to hit.
Those are the ones that really stood out to me, what do you think?
bmsattler wrote: Faith and Fury previews are out on Youtube. Interesting options for space marines. I think chaplains are the clear winners, but the other characters can be situationally good as well.
Chaplain: 1 CP to give 2 canticles at once is awesome. You can get a warlord trait to reroll failed canticles as well, which takes a lot of the swinginess (but not all) out of them.
Codex chapters also get a free canticle known for their chaplains.
Apothecaries can reroll failed revive checks. Warlord traits let them grant a 6+ FNP to infantry and bikers (?) or heal twice.
Tech Marines heal a flat 3. Warlord trait can grant vehicles in proximity a +1 to hit.
Those are the ones that really stood out to me, what do you think?
Slaplains are gonna be worth the extra 2CP potentially to get the upgrade + Warlord trait.
So imma probably lose my Terminator Captain in my list that uses the Hunters and replace him with the brand spanking new Slaplain. Turn him into a Master of Sanctity, give him the relic Crozius, and use the Warlord trait that gives rerolls to his prayers. Add on Mantra and the +2 to charges and that's a pretty damn solid dude.
Shame that there isn't a way for him to prevent Fall Back off the top of my head as Raven Guard.
Apoths are a clear winner for me. Reroll revive checks is massive. Double revives is also really great. 6+ FNP to a unit? Holy crap. This guy does a lot of great things.
So can you try two healings and reroll both of them ? That's indeed huge ! I really like what they did for them and the warlord traits. It's a nice little touch and they are quite good in game at the same time.
Keep in mind that you'd be spending 1-2 CP for that ability, but it is fairly strong. I'm kinda holding off on changing much until Chapter Approved to see if Centurions/Aggressors get nerfed, as they seem like they would benefit the most from healing and rezzing.
bmsattler wrote: Keep in mind that you'd be spending 1-2 CP for that ability, but it is fairly strong. I'm kinda holding off on changing much until Chapter Approved to see if Centurions/Aggressors get nerfed, as they seem like they would benefit the most from healing and rezzing.
It would be rather unfair to see them nerfed only because a support character got optional rules which benefit them. But you never know, it's GW
bmsattler wrote: Keep in mind that you'd be spending 1-2 CP for that ability, but it is fairly strong. I'm kinda holding off on changing much until Chapter Approved to see if Centurions/Aggressors get nerfed, as they seem like they would benefit the most from healing and rezzing.
It would be rather unfair to see them nerfed only because a support character got optional rules which benefit them. But you never know, it's GW
Likewise unfair to see them priced up because RG and WS can teleport them. And same to Aggressors.
Tech marine seems like the clear winner here. Especially for iron hands. You don't even need a chapter master with that WL trait. Everything it hitting on 2s now.
but they can benefit greatly from 2+ to hit with reroll 1s and Tank Hunters.
